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The sex addiction field often looks at this

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problem as, you know, a result of childhood

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trauma and that, you know, men are engaging

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these unwanted sexual behaviors,

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as a a way to regulate their emotions

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to escape or or cope.

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But the truth is there are so

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many more reasons why guys would engage in

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these activities and why they would lie about

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it. And in this episode, Jeremy Mast and

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I talk about how big this problem really

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is and what guys are gonna have to

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do to get into good recovery. Enjoy the

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episode.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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high achiever.

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I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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more information about joining our group or attending

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our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Hello, everybody. I am here with Jeremy Mass.

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Jeremy, I'm in Stoke for this conversation,

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and it was awesome to see you in

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person at, the ITAP Symposium. Oh, it is.

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You know, virtual is cool, but, always nice

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to always nice to know. And you weren't

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five foot, one. You were six foot a

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billion. So that was also a a

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a, unexpected but, nonetheless,

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I like this topic of discussion because you

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and I both came, and I I don't

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know what your takeaway was from the IPET

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TAP Symposium, but I was very excited

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about the future of the sex addiction field

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because,

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you know, I don't know if I don't

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know if this is new. From what I

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gather, this is this is kind of a

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new topic of discussion, but there was a

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lot of

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I I would I would say,

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healthy debate

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around,

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hey. What are we what are we doing?

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Is this is this really the best? You

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know, should we be using this strategy? Is

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there another strategy we should be using before

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this strategy? It seemed, you know, the field

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was really,

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having this very healthy

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conversation around,

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hey. You know, it's a young field. Let's

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let's let's stay in the game, and let's

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let's test our knowledge and see, hey, is

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this really the best approach? Are there other

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approaches out there that could work better? So

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I love the innovation. I love the new

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directions, the new ideas, the fresh concepts. And

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so I think, you know, you and I,

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we had this cool idea of sharing some

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of that with with the listeners. So, the

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first one I wanna start off with, because

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I think you speak to it really nicely,

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Jeremy, is buy in. As somebody in recovery

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and, and and somebody who's watched guys in

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recovery, you know, one of the things I

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notice a lot is a lack of buy

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in

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from clients,

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around

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will these treatment strategies actually work.

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And then if as I'm being diagnosed, do

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I feel like I'm being accurate accurately diagnosed?

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And these are these are pretty big deal

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because, know, if you're not bought into the

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treatment strategy or and you feel like you've

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been maybe incorrectly diagnosed or labeled around why

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you're doing the addictive behaviors you're doing,

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man, both of those things, it makes it

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really tough to get into good recovery.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah. And you're absolutely right. It was, a

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really exciting conference.

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A lot of innovation,

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a lot of healthy discussion,

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both, in the sessions and, and in conversations

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outside of that. It was really

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wonderful to see. Something I've actually been looking

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forward to for a long time in, these

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kinds of conferences. So very exciting to see.

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And I think you're absolutely right. You know,

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a a lot of clients I see,

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they they don't necessarily identify as as an

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addict.

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They don't necessarily identify as as this has

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historically been true as,

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someone who has an overwhelming

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degree or amount of, trauma.

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Historically, the the,

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the the model of sex addiction has been

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linked inextricably

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with, trauma. One deals with,

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trauma

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or the symptoms of trauma by medicating that

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with,

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with some kind of addictive behavior, whether that

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be sex or pornography or whatever.

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And I I think as especially since the

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advent of the Internet, we've seen this more

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and more,

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that the reasons for,

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developing any kind of addictive behavior, sex addiction

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included, have been much more varied.

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And we've seen a lot more variety too

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as our

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understanding of addictive behavior of, socially compulsive behavior

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develops. We've seen a lot of different, nuances

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just in terms of the behavior itself

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and in the function of that behavior.

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And so speaking accurately to that, while holding

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pretty loosely as I do,

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the the the label of addiction,

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and and it's it's ideology, I I think,

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is only gonna help us meet people where

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they are, which I really believe

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we've got to do as professionals in this

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field.

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Yeah. It's a you know, the the best

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way I always say it is, you know,

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because some people hear this and they say,

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oh, it's just semantics.

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Right? Compulsive addiction. It it but it's not

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because the treatment

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of an addiction is different than somebody,

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compulsively

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engaging in a behavior from time to time.

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Those are those are two different, you know,

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we'll approach those things differently. Right?

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There'll be some carryover, but they will be,

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you know, they will be different. Right? And

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I think, you know, shipping men off to

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treatment,

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and expecting it to go away, you know,

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yes.

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With substance addiction, we see a withdrawal process,

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a detox process, and this individual is now

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no longer dependent on this external chemical. And

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that's great because, yeah, yes, technically getting out,

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they could go back and using it again,

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but it certainly helps,

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being going through the detox process

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and now being faced, okay, do I wanna

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go back into my substance addiction, or do

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I wanna live my life differently? Well, with

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sex, it's a bit it's a different story

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because,

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you know, keep in mind, you don't need

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heroin to survive. You don't need cocaine to

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survive. So in theory, when you alcohol to

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survive. So when you get out of those

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treatment centers, it is actually an unnecessary

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behavior that you would be returning to.

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Right?

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Sex is a different story. It's, it's all

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around us. It's biologically necessary for the survival

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of our race. Right? So the the desire

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is never going to go away. You're going

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to have,

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sexual needs forever, and there's nothing we can

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do to remove that. We wouldn't wanna remove

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that because it's one of our beautiful things

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of, being a human.

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But that's kinda some of the interesting

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nuances of this problem is if we look

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at it too much like an addiction,

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I think the things that come to mind

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are substance addiction. So I think, to me,

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I found it actually an unhelpful title because

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there is this,

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you know, our brain immediately goes to substance

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addiction. We think, oh, great. I'm gonna get

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my husband to go over here. He's gonna

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spend $60,000. He's gonna come out. He's gonna

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be cured, and we'll be happy happily ever

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after. And when we're talking about process addiction,

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it's it's a bit different than that because

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there could be a wide variety of reasons

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as to why someone has latched onto this.

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So before we move off that topic, I

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want you to kinda speak to some of

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these because you mentioned this. We're starting to

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see,

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you know, it's not necessarily,

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maladaptive,

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kind of behavior in response in response to

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trauma or dysregulated emotions. We're seeing in a

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lot of variety of other ways. Can you

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rattle off some of those different ways that

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we've seen? I know it's a it's broad

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and big, but can you give people an

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idea of what we're talking about? Yeah. That's

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a great question.

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Typically, in younger clients,

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who grew up with the Internet,

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I I make a differentiation between,

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compulsive or addictive behavior that's, driven by trauma

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and,

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addictive behavior that is

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behaviorally conditioned.

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We've all heard of Pavlov's dogs. Okay? And

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I don't wanna go back to grad school

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to,

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you know, give everyone a a refresher on,

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what that means. But,

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basically,

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the more that we are exposed to a

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pleasure a pleasurable behavior that we associate in

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some way with our survival, the more that

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we are going to engage in that behavior,

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especially,

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as we repeat that engagement over time. We

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learned that

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that is essential for our well-being somehow. Mhmm.

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So,

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with regard to, some kind of sexually compulsive

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behavior,

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with repeated exposure to pornography, for example, we

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learn that that's pleasurable. But, to some degree,

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we also

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learn that that can help us to regulate

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our feelings,

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even if those feelings aren't necessarily caused by,

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some

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traumatic event. Okay?

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So,

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so I think about addiction both as driven

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by, by, trauma, which can be,

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relational. It can be,

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the result of more significant traumatic events, but

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also,

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repeated exposure or learned behavior over time.

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And so with younger clients, typically, we're gonna

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see more of

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behaviorally

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reinforced

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and conditioned

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compulsive behavior, which is good news because when

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you actually takes take steps to mitigate that

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behavior, it means that it's probably gonna be

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easier to stop because you're not using that

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behavior to Mhmm. Mitigate

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trauma that's underneath that. Right? That's not driven

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by unresolved trauma.

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A lot of times, those younger clients do

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need help because addiction can arrest one's

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emotional and social development. They might need help

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with social skills or

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learning

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skills, that are involved in relational intimacy,

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even even, some other basic,

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professional skills. Okay? But all of those can

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be, provided in the right context. Mhmm.

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So they might be,

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using pornography as a way of

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exploring sexuality

271
00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:55,769
that, they might not feel,

272
00:09:56,389 --> 00:09:57,289
as a teenager,

273
00:09:58,455 --> 00:09:59,675
safe enough or,

274
00:10:00,695 --> 00:10:02,695
free enough to explore in other ways, and

275
00:10:02,695 --> 00:10:04,795
that just got out of hand. Mhmm.

276
00:10:05,335 --> 00:10:06,934
There can also be and I see this

277
00:10:06,934 --> 00:10:08,535
a lot in my practice. There are a

278
00:10:08,535 --> 00:10:10,075
lot of guys who grew up with

279
00:10:11,899 --> 00:10:14,459
deep seated fears of abandonment, who grew up

280
00:10:14,459 --> 00:10:15,120
to be,

281
00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:18,720
nice guys Mhmm. Who seek after the approval

282
00:10:18,779 --> 00:10:20,559
of women. And they find that

283
00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:23,519
whether in, the fantasy of pornography,

284
00:10:25,329 --> 00:10:28,325
the fantasy of receiving a woman's attention,

285
00:10:29,105 --> 00:10:31,524
even if it's, projectively so,

286
00:10:32,304 --> 00:10:35,284
on a screen, or they seek that externally

287
00:10:35,345 --> 00:10:36,644
in some other way,

288
00:10:37,184 --> 00:10:37,684
by,

289
00:10:39,990 --> 00:10:41,610
flirtation or sexualization

290
00:10:41,990 --> 00:10:42,389
of, everyday,

291
00:10:43,670 --> 00:10:45,670
interactions. I I see that quite a lot.

292
00:10:45,670 --> 00:10:47,350
And and often, it's a mix of the

293
00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:48,250
two. Mhmm.

294
00:10:48,629 --> 00:10:50,870
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. It's a it's a the

295
00:10:50,870 --> 00:10:53,190
one that's probably the most common I've seen

296
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:55,054
is you know, the way I always see

297
00:10:55,054 --> 00:10:55,455
it is,

298
00:10:57,455 --> 00:10:59,695
you know, it's especially with my clients being,

299
00:10:59,934 --> 00:11:00,434
entrepreneurs,

300
00:11:00,815 --> 00:11:01,475
high performers,

301
00:11:02,174 --> 00:11:04,254
lawyers, doctors, surgeons, business just some kind of

302
00:11:04,254 --> 00:11:06,975
business sales professionals. It's, a lot of what

303
00:11:06,975 --> 00:11:07,715
they do,

304
00:11:08,039 --> 00:11:10,279
both non sexually and non sexually, a lot

305
00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:11,959
of what they do where they place their

306
00:11:11,959 --> 00:11:13,419
attention and value,

307
00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,000
is on things that validate a a story

308
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,059
about themselves that they like. Right? So

309
00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,715
while, yes, sometimes it's sexual and there's some

310
00:11:23,715 --> 00:11:24,934
flirtation, affairs,

311
00:11:26,835 --> 00:11:29,634
whatever it is, sometimes it's sexual. But the

312
00:11:29,634 --> 00:11:32,195
objective is similar to what they're doing with

313
00:11:32,195 --> 00:11:33,795
all the other areas of their life, which

314
00:11:33,795 --> 00:11:34,295
is,

315
00:11:34,915 --> 00:11:36,355
where do I what, you know, what neighborhood

316
00:11:36,355 --> 00:11:37,620
do I need to live in? What car

317
00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:39,360
do I need to to drive?

318
00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:41,340
How much money do I need to make?

319
00:11:41,340 --> 00:11:43,419
What you know, a lot of what they're

320
00:11:43,419 --> 00:11:45,120
placing their attention on is,

321
00:11:46,220 --> 00:11:48,220
what the the guy I wanna become, the

322
00:11:48,220 --> 00:11:50,299
person I wanna feel like and be seen

323
00:11:50,299 --> 00:11:53,035
as, what does that guy do? And a

324
00:11:53,035 --> 00:11:54,634
lot of it's not sexual, but some of

325
00:11:54,634 --> 00:11:56,575
it some of it is. You know, unfortunately,

326
00:11:57,115 --> 00:11:59,055
you know, women have been roped into,

327
00:11:59,595 --> 00:12:02,075
you know, enhancing one's status or self worth.

328
00:12:02,075 --> 00:12:03,935
Right? Your ability to be able to,

329
00:12:04,555 --> 00:12:07,190
get women to sleep with you has

330
00:12:07,570 --> 00:12:09,649
evolved to have value. And that's not nothing

331
00:12:09,649 --> 00:12:11,750
new. I mean, when you watch Ferris Bueller,

332
00:12:12,450 --> 00:12:14,210
I mean, you know, it's this is not

333
00:12:14,210 --> 00:12:16,610
a new concept. The the value that a

334
00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:18,529
woman can bring to your life has been

335
00:12:18,529 --> 00:12:21,410
broadcasted on you name the platform. It's been

336
00:12:21,410 --> 00:12:23,544
shown there. So, you know, a lot of

337
00:12:23,544 --> 00:12:25,784
what I see these guys doing is they're

338
00:12:25,784 --> 00:12:28,764
just simply adding anything and everything they can

339
00:12:28,985 --> 00:12:31,565
to their life to feel accomplished,

340
00:12:31,945 --> 00:12:32,445
wanted,

341
00:12:32,825 --> 00:12:33,325
successful,

342
00:12:34,105 --> 00:12:37,590
desirable, rare, remarkable, unusually great, whatever it is.

343
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:39,110
And if women are a part of that,

344
00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:40,070
then it'll be a part of it. And

345
00:12:40,070 --> 00:12:42,230
if women aren't because, I don't know, maybe

346
00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:44,070
you didn't have those mentors, you didn't watch

347
00:12:44,070 --> 00:12:46,309
those TV shows, maybe you, you know, your

348
00:12:46,309 --> 00:12:48,389
upbringing, you didn't latch on to that behavior.

349
00:12:48,389 --> 00:12:49,529
But again, I think

350
00:12:49,845 --> 00:12:51,764
the reason I'm bringing this up is I've

351
00:12:51,764 --> 00:12:54,345
never once identified as being a sex addict,

352
00:12:54,884 --> 00:12:56,884
or a porn addict that never really described

353
00:12:56,884 --> 00:12:58,245
what I was doing. To me, it was

354
00:12:58,324 --> 00:12:59,784
you know, when I went to these rooms,

355
00:12:59,924 --> 00:13:01,204
I remember getting in there and I was

356
00:13:01,204 --> 00:13:02,725
thinking, man, you guys got issues. Like, I

357
00:13:02,725 --> 00:13:04,889
just like sleeping with hot women. Like, you

358
00:13:04,889 --> 00:13:07,210
guys got you guys got actual sex problems.

359
00:13:07,210 --> 00:13:08,889
I don't. And I think that's where and

360
00:13:08,889 --> 00:13:11,690
that's worth bringing this up, Jeremy, is there

361
00:13:11,690 --> 00:13:14,250
is such thing as a sex addict. Wouldn't

362
00:13:14,250 --> 00:13:16,430
you agree? It's not I I think labeling

363
00:13:16,649 --> 00:13:17,149
everyone

364
00:13:17,529 --> 00:13:19,070
with that label is

365
00:13:19,774 --> 00:13:22,174
inaccurate, who is engaged in an unwanted sexual

366
00:13:22,174 --> 00:13:24,335
behavior or had an affair or something. But

367
00:13:24,335 --> 00:13:25,934
there are people who are sex addicts. I

368
00:13:25,934 --> 00:13:27,375
just wanna get that out there for the

369
00:13:27,375 --> 00:13:28,355
record. Right?

370
00:13:28,815 --> 00:13:31,295
Mhmm. Oh, yeah. And and I also wanna

371
00:13:31,295 --> 00:13:33,450
diminish too on that same note. You know,

372
00:13:33,450 --> 00:13:35,450
Jeremy and I are not trying to take

373
00:13:35,450 --> 00:13:35,950
away

374
00:13:36,730 --> 00:13:38,410
trauma. I think we'll probably get into that

375
00:13:38,410 --> 00:13:40,670
in the latter half of this podcast because,

376
00:13:41,210 --> 00:13:43,690
keep in mind, yes, some people are using

377
00:13:43,690 --> 00:13:44,330
sex and,

378
00:13:44,945 --> 00:13:47,605
just different pornography, whatever it is, to escape

379
00:13:47,825 --> 00:13:50,404
and not feel a feeling or acknowledge something.

380
00:13:51,184 --> 00:13:53,184
Yeah. Okay. Sure. But, again, if you look

381
00:13:53,184 --> 00:13:54,865
at the guy who's using it as a

382
00:13:54,865 --> 00:13:55,365
means,

383
00:13:55,745 --> 00:13:58,919
it's still directly derived from trauma. Right? You

384
00:13:58,919 --> 00:14:01,100
know, for me, my trauma was

385
00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,079
I I had a hard time getting the

386
00:14:03,079 --> 00:14:05,000
girls that I wanted to get when I

387
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,320
was in when I was, like, 11, 12,

388
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,500
13. They seem to always want other guys,

389
00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,144
not me. So I developed a complex and

390
00:14:13,144 --> 00:14:15,084
an, infatuation with getting,

391
00:14:15,544 --> 00:14:18,184
you know, crafting a life where women these

392
00:14:18,184 --> 00:14:20,105
women would want me. And so I did.

393
00:14:20,105 --> 00:14:21,544
I started. I went to the gym. I

394
00:14:21,544 --> 00:14:23,944
was whitening my teeth, tanning, making tons of

395
00:14:23,944 --> 00:14:25,923
money, buying things. You know, it was I

396
00:14:25,923 --> 00:14:28,100
I that became my obsession with, well, I'm

397
00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:29,779
gonna make sure that I'm never not wanted

398
00:14:29,779 --> 00:14:31,139
again. So I just I wanted to be

399
00:14:31,139 --> 00:14:33,059
clear. Do you guys see the root there?

400
00:14:33,059 --> 00:14:35,139
The root was trauma. Now, yes, was I

401
00:14:35,139 --> 00:14:36,820
using it as more of a means than

402
00:14:36,820 --> 00:14:39,315
an escape? Sure. But the root trauma. So

403
00:14:39,315 --> 00:14:40,675
I just wanna make sure that that's not

404
00:14:40,675 --> 00:14:43,254
getting muddied. I've I've been accused of belittling

405
00:14:43,394 --> 00:14:45,554
the effects of trauma before, and I want

406
00:14:45,634 --> 00:14:47,575
I just wanna set the record state straight.

407
00:14:48,035 --> 00:14:50,620
I don't if if that, a, if you've

408
00:14:50,620 --> 00:14:51,899
accused me of that, you haven't read my

409
00:14:51,899 --> 00:14:53,740
book because my book just talks over and

410
00:14:53,740 --> 00:14:55,419
over and over and over about where you've

411
00:14:55,419 --> 00:14:56,779
gotten to where you've gotten. But I wanted

412
00:14:56,779 --> 00:14:58,539
to just highlight that before we move on,

413
00:14:58,539 --> 00:14:59,039
Jeremy.

414
00:14:59,659 --> 00:15:01,179
Oh, that's so true. And and,

415
00:15:03,205 --> 00:15:05,125
trauma can take many different forms. Right? When

416
00:15:05,125 --> 00:15:06,804
we talk about trauma, first of all, I'm

417
00:15:06,804 --> 00:15:09,205
on a 100% agreement with you, that that

418
00:15:09,205 --> 00:15:11,764
I don't wanna do anything to diminish, the

419
00:15:11,764 --> 00:15:12,825
the role of trauma.

420
00:15:13,845 --> 00:15:15,684
It it's hard not to talk about the

421
00:15:15,684 --> 00:15:17,759
relationship between trauma and addiction because,

422
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,440
to some degree, everybody's got trauma. And everybody

423
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,460
who struggle with some kind of addictive behavior,

424
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,240
even if it doesn't reach the threshold of

425
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:26,740
addiction

426
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,299
or meet the clinical definition of addiction,

427
00:15:29,679 --> 00:15:31,440
you still got some trauma. And to some

428
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,379
degree, you're probably still using

429
00:15:34,154 --> 00:15:34,654
your,

430
00:15:35,834 --> 00:15:37,834
behavior of choice or your substance of choice

431
00:15:37,834 --> 00:15:39,754
to to deal with feelings or or to

432
00:15:39,754 --> 00:15:42,794
cope with unresolved trauma or the feelings that

433
00:15:42,794 --> 00:15:45,115
are are resulting from that. Feeling of being

434
00:15:45,115 --> 00:15:47,274
unwanted, for example, in your story, which I

435
00:15:47,274 --> 00:15:49,294
think was beautifully described in your book.

436
00:15:49,889 --> 00:15:50,550
So that's

437
00:15:51,090 --> 00:15:51,990
absolutely true.

438
00:15:52,769 --> 00:15:54,950
What I think we are starting to realize

439
00:15:55,649 --> 00:15:56,470
is that the

440
00:15:59,009 --> 00:15:59,509
ideology

441
00:16:00,450 --> 00:16:02,950
of addiction can be much more complex

442
00:16:03,725 --> 00:16:04,384
than simply,

443
00:16:05,085 --> 00:16:08,125
focusing on trauma alone. It has many more

444
00:16:08,125 --> 00:16:10,945
aspects to it that, we need to appreciate.

445
00:16:11,644 --> 00:16:13,565
And once we fill out those,

446
00:16:14,125 --> 00:16:16,384
aspects or begin to understand the complexity,

447
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:18,959
I think that's where clients can start to

448
00:16:18,959 --> 00:16:21,459
feel met and and more understood.

449
00:16:22,079 --> 00:16:23,360
Mhmm. Yeah. It's it's also

450
00:16:24,159 --> 00:16:25,839
Oh. Yeah. Go ahead. Finish finish. Well, what

451
00:16:25,839 --> 00:16:27,440
I was I was just piggybacking off of

452
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,445
that because I I think I think,

453
00:16:29,924 --> 00:16:31,445
again, just to kinda highlight what Jeremy is

454
00:16:31,445 --> 00:16:32,804
saying so everybody can kinda wrap your head

455
00:16:32,804 --> 00:16:33,625
around it.

456
00:16:34,404 --> 00:16:36,164
We're not I'm not trying to scare you

457
00:16:36,164 --> 00:16:38,004
and make this sound like it's this big

458
00:16:38,004 --> 00:16:41,044
impossible problem. It's it's actually the opposite. I

459
00:16:41,285 --> 00:16:43,044
what what my goal is here of you

460
00:16:43,044 --> 00:16:45,100
know, to to Jeremy and my point, if

461
00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:46,799
you we you were addicted to,

462
00:16:47,259 --> 00:16:48,080
I don't painkillers.

463
00:16:48,460 --> 00:16:49,820
You have this pill, you're putting the pill

464
00:16:49,820 --> 00:16:51,419
in your mouth, and the pill is having

465
00:16:51,419 --> 00:16:53,980
its chemical effect on your body. Keep in

466
00:16:53,980 --> 00:16:56,559
mind, when we we're not taking you know,

467
00:16:56,860 --> 00:16:58,620
the reason that that Jeremy and I are

468
00:16:58,620 --> 00:17:00,735
saying how big and diverse this is is

469
00:17:01,134 --> 00:17:04,195
sex isn't a pill that has a chemical

470
00:17:04,255 --> 00:17:06,515
compound that has a universal

471
00:17:07,934 --> 00:17:10,755
response on every person who takes the pill.

472
00:17:10,815 --> 00:17:12,255
I'm gonna say that again because that's very

473
00:17:12,414 --> 00:17:14,095
I just want everybody to hear that. Sex

474
00:17:14,095 --> 00:17:15,875
is not like a compound

475
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:19,910
that has a universal effect on every person

476
00:17:19,910 --> 00:17:22,069
who takes the compound. Right? So the point

477
00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:22,569
is

478
00:17:22,869 --> 00:17:25,029
when we are ingesting these,

479
00:17:25,349 --> 00:17:26,650
sexual thoughts, behaviors,

480
00:17:27,109 --> 00:17:29,849
there is a different objective in a different,

481
00:17:31,144 --> 00:17:32,365
in a wide variety.

482
00:17:33,144 --> 00:17:35,304
For example, I'll I'll just say this. Somebody

483
00:17:35,304 --> 00:17:37,544
could have an affair in one person it

484
00:17:37,544 --> 00:17:40,184
truly is because they feel unwanted, undesired from

485
00:17:40,184 --> 00:17:42,105
their wife, and their sex life sucks, and

486
00:17:42,105 --> 00:17:43,384
they have sexual needs that are not being

487
00:17:43,384 --> 00:17:45,065
met. And that could totally be true for

488
00:17:45,065 --> 00:17:45,724
that person.

489
00:17:46,069 --> 00:17:48,009
Then there could also be somebody who

490
00:17:48,309 --> 00:17:51,349
always feels unwanted and nothing's ever enough and

491
00:17:51,349 --> 00:17:53,750
so they're just chronically sleeping with anyone and

492
00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:55,910
everyone. Right? And again, see what I'm saying?

493
00:17:55,910 --> 00:17:57,529
Same same same practice,

494
00:17:58,005 --> 00:17:59,785
different objective, different result.

495
00:18:00,404 --> 00:18:03,045
Maybe sometimes maybe maybe no high at all.

496
00:18:03,045 --> 00:18:05,684
Maybe maybe honestly just low and depressed the

497
00:18:05,684 --> 00:18:07,285
whole time they're doing it. You know, the

498
00:18:07,285 --> 00:18:09,525
ritual brings them some, but, like, there's no

499
00:18:09,525 --> 00:18:11,125
peak at all. Whereas maybe the other guy

500
00:18:11,125 --> 00:18:12,549
is getting a peak because he's actually getting

501
00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:15,109
some unmet needs met. Now does he does

502
00:18:15,109 --> 00:18:17,509
that excuse him from lying to his wife

503
00:18:17,509 --> 00:18:19,590
and hiding all these behaviors? No. But I'm

504
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:21,509
just saying that's what Jeremy and I are

505
00:18:21,509 --> 00:18:24,070
saying here is there's not this universal substance

506
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:26,154
that everyone is taking, and they're not taking

507
00:18:26,154 --> 00:18:27,434
it all for the same reason, and they're

508
00:18:27,434 --> 00:18:29,274
also not getting the same result from it.

509
00:18:29,274 --> 00:18:30,474
And so I just that that was kinda

510
00:18:30,474 --> 00:18:32,075
how I wanted to articulate. Anything on that,

511
00:18:32,075 --> 00:18:34,075
Jeremy, that you wanna clean up? Yeah. That's

512
00:18:34,075 --> 00:18:34,815
well said.

513
00:18:35,355 --> 00:18:36,875
I'd like to simplify this,

514
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,519
by by talking about revisiting our our earlier

515
00:18:40,519 --> 00:18:41,900
discussion about, trauma.

516
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:43,980
Addiction can be

517
00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:46,620
something that we use to move away

518
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:47,740
from something.

519
00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:49,420
Unwanted feelings,

520
00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:51,660
emotions we don't wanna experience,

521
00:18:52,755 --> 00:18:55,875
their, remnants of trauma. Right? Something that we

522
00:18:55,875 --> 00:18:58,355
want to feel less, but can also be

523
00:18:58,355 --> 00:18:58,855
used

524
00:18:59,394 --> 00:19:02,275
to feel more of something that we want

525
00:19:02,275 --> 00:19:02,934
to experience.

526
00:19:04,434 --> 00:19:07,559
Feeling more wanted, feeling more in control in

527
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,380
some way, even if it's through some destructive

528
00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:11,019
means.

529
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:13,820
I think you said

530
00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:16,920
it acting out in ways that reinforces the

531
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,860
story that we want to believe about ourselves.

532
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:20,860
I I think that's wonderfully put.

533
00:19:21,944 --> 00:19:25,065
Addiction always has some kind of adaptive function,

534
00:19:25,065 --> 00:19:27,065
something that, we want more of in our

535
00:19:27,065 --> 00:19:28,904
lives even if it comes at a great

536
00:19:28,904 --> 00:19:31,304
cost. Mhmm. And I think that that then

537
00:19:31,304 --> 00:19:33,404
the reason we're talking about this because again,

538
00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:35,700
you know, I I also get accused of,

539
00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:37,619
well, this is semantics. It's all to say.

540
00:19:37,619 --> 00:19:39,080
No. It is not. Because

541
00:19:39,539 --> 00:19:41,099
keep in mind, look at the two different

542
00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:43,059
look at the ideology of the person being

543
00:19:43,059 --> 00:19:44,279
affected by the behavior.

544
00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:46,580
And this was why the sex decision field

545
00:19:46,580 --> 00:19:48,259
really failed me for a long time when

546
00:19:48,259 --> 00:19:50,315
I was first in recovery was it kept

547
00:19:50,394 --> 00:19:52,474
I I the at least my impression was

548
00:19:52,474 --> 00:19:54,734
I kept being told that I was escaping.

549
00:19:54,795 --> 00:19:56,075
I'm doing this to escape, and they kept

550
00:19:56,075 --> 00:19:57,194
trying to ask me, what are you trying

551
00:19:57,194 --> 00:19:58,075
to escape? What are you trying to escape?

552
00:19:58,075 --> 00:19:59,515
What are you trying to escape? And I'm

553
00:19:59,515 --> 00:20:01,434
like, I'm not I love my life, baby.

554
00:20:01,434 --> 00:20:03,130
I love it. I love I got I

555
00:20:03,130 --> 00:20:05,549
I don't really work. I got unlimited resources.

556
00:20:05,769 --> 00:20:08,009
I've got like, my life's fantastic. I don't

557
00:20:08,009 --> 00:20:10,250
know what you're talking about. It was finally

558
00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:12,269
when I started looking at it at a

559
00:20:13,450 --> 00:20:15,130
what don't I have and what am I

560
00:20:15,130 --> 00:20:17,055
trying to get. Right? And it was this,

561
00:20:17,375 --> 00:20:20,174
I'm using these attempts, these at bats as

562
00:20:20,174 --> 00:20:22,414
different means to try to feel something that

563
00:20:22,414 --> 00:20:24,355
I'm not feeling enough of. Now

564
00:20:24,815 --> 00:20:27,375
to like, what Jeremy just said, if we

565
00:20:27,375 --> 00:20:29,055
go back to the core of it, I

566
00:20:29,055 --> 00:20:30,434
share actually the same

567
00:20:31,049 --> 00:20:32,650
feeling that, you know, I write about this

568
00:20:32,650 --> 00:20:34,090
in my book. It's it's kinda the difference

569
00:20:34,090 --> 00:20:36,250
between the victim mentality and the kind of

570
00:20:36,250 --> 00:20:37,950
the high performer, high achiever mentality.

571
00:20:38,490 --> 00:20:40,410
Same trauma. I'm not enough the way I

572
00:20:40,410 --> 00:20:42,750
am. The victim goes and says,

573
00:20:43,184 --> 00:20:45,105
oh, you know, if I just had better

574
00:20:45,105 --> 00:20:46,464
parents, if I just could go to a

575
00:20:46,464 --> 00:20:47,664
better if I just grew up in a

576
00:20:47,664 --> 00:20:49,585
different community, oh, if I if I was

577
00:20:49,585 --> 00:20:51,524
just skinnier, if I was just more attractive,

578
00:20:51,585 --> 00:20:53,125
if I was just in the in crowd,

579
00:20:53,345 --> 00:20:55,024
then my life wouldn't be this way. Right?

580
00:20:55,024 --> 00:20:56,464
So that's more of kinda like the victim

581
00:20:56,464 --> 00:20:58,480
spin on it is to cast blame, make

582
00:20:58,480 --> 00:20:58,980
excuses,

583
00:20:59,279 --> 00:21:01,940
and, try to run from the situation altogether.

584
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,720
A high performer will sit with the same

585
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:05,779
feeling of inadequacy

586
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:07,859
and self doubt and insecurity,

587
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:09,679
but they will go off and say, alright.

588
00:21:09,679 --> 00:21:11,119
Well, what am I gonna do about this

589
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:12,164
so that I can still live a good

590
00:21:12,164 --> 00:21:13,125
life? How am I gonna how am I

591
00:21:13,125 --> 00:21:14,725
gonna mask this? How am I gonna how

592
00:21:14,725 --> 00:21:15,845
am I gonna make sure that no one

593
00:21:15,845 --> 00:21:17,525
finds out that I suck? How am I

594
00:21:17,525 --> 00:21:19,205
gonna hide that from people or whatever it

595
00:21:19,205 --> 00:21:21,365
is that you're you're you're changing? So, again,

596
00:21:21,365 --> 00:21:23,125
I just want everybody to understand. We're we're

597
00:21:23,125 --> 00:21:25,579
talking about the same thing, but the differences

598
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,880
do matter. Because I think if we just

599
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,480
throw this guy in and say, oh, you're

600
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,559
an addict and you're constantly trying to use

601
00:21:31,559 --> 00:21:33,500
dopamine to escape your life's problems.

602
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,019
Again, that that

603
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,535
it's true ish, but he's he's latched onto

604
00:21:38,535 --> 00:21:40,455
a different behavior set. Right? So I just

605
00:21:40,535 --> 00:21:41,914
I I I think that. Right?

606
00:21:42,295 --> 00:21:44,775
Yeah. Yeah. If we can help those who

607
00:21:44,775 --> 00:21:46,075
struggle with these behaviors,

608
00:21:47,575 --> 00:21:49,355
men and women, if we can help them

609
00:21:50,055 --> 00:21:50,555
understand

610
00:21:51,179 --> 00:21:54,000
the the place and role of these behaviors

611
00:21:54,059 --> 00:21:57,579
within their lives, understanding that, it's different for

612
00:21:57,579 --> 00:22:00,139
everyone. We're we're going to help them stay

613
00:22:00,139 --> 00:22:02,859
in treatment. Mhmm. Because to the extent that

614
00:22:02,859 --> 00:22:04,799
they feel like a a,

615
00:22:05,184 --> 00:22:07,904
you know, treatment model or way of understanding

616
00:22:07,904 --> 00:22:08,785
their addiction is,

617
00:22:09,825 --> 00:22:11,984
almost being forced on them, that that's gonna

618
00:22:11,984 --> 00:22:13,924
help them that's gonna make them feel misunderstood.

619
00:22:14,144 --> 00:22:15,525
That's gonna make them feel,

620
00:22:16,065 --> 00:22:16,565
invalidated,

621
00:22:17,184 --> 00:22:19,505
not hurt, and and they they're in danger

622
00:22:19,505 --> 00:22:22,450
of dropping out. Mhmm. Or at best, not

623
00:22:22,450 --> 00:22:24,950
taking addiction treatment seriously. And,

624
00:22:25,410 --> 00:22:26,849
and boy, I I don't know about you,

625
00:22:26,849 --> 00:22:28,369
but I just wanna help as many people

626
00:22:28,369 --> 00:22:30,130
as I can. Mhmm. So the more that

627
00:22:30,130 --> 00:22:30,609
we can,

628
00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:31,910
appreciate,

629
00:22:33,065 --> 00:22:35,625
what we're talking about here and and, and

630
00:22:35,625 --> 00:22:38,765
just be curious and open, both as, professionals

631
00:22:38,904 --> 00:22:39,404
and,

632
00:22:40,184 --> 00:22:42,984
as as people who love, these individuals and

633
00:22:42,984 --> 00:22:44,904
they're trying to help them, I think that

634
00:22:44,904 --> 00:22:46,730
we can do them a great service. Mhmm.

635
00:22:46,730 --> 00:22:48,730
Yeah. You you you and I talked about

636
00:22:48,730 --> 00:22:49,230
this,

637
00:22:50,490 --> 00:22:51,789
before we were recording.

638
00:22:52,170 --> 00:22:54,490
You know, there's a lot of guys who

639
00:22:54,490 --> 00:22:55,630
quietly quit

640
00:22:56,009 --> 00:22:56,509
therapy,

641
00:22:57,049 --> 00:22:59,150
quietly quit. So they're still going to meetings.

642
00:22:59,210 --> 00:23:00,590
They're still going to therapy,

643
00:23:01,085 --> 00:23:01,404
but,

644
00:23:01,884 --> 00:23:04,125
their buy in is actually less than that

645
00:23:04,125 --> 00:23:05,825
of what it was when they first started

646
00:23:05,964 --> 00:23:07,184
their recovery journey.

647
00:23:07,565 --> 00:23:09,724
And they're just not really as bought in.

648
00:23:09,724 --> 00:23:11,005
They've kind of run the course. So they're

649
00:23:11,085 --> 00:23:12,285
you know? And and the truth is a

650
00:23:12,285 --> 00:23:13,345
lot of them are sober.

651
00:23:13,644 --> 00:23:15,164
Right? So they're not you know, the behaviors

652
00:23:15,164 --> 00:23:17,180
of stuff, and I think that's why the

653
00:23:17,180 --> 00:23:18,779
buy in tanks, and I think that's why

654
00:23:18,779 --> 00:23:20,640
they quietly quit is it's like, alright.

655
00:23:21,740 --> 00:23:23,740
Well, I'm not doing the behaviors anymore. I

656
00:23:23,740 --> 00:23:25,660
haven't since, you know, I was discovered or

657
00:23:25,660 --> 00:23:27,180
I maybe had one slip and and we

658
00:23:27,180 --> 00:23:29,099
kinda worked our way through that. And so

659
00:23:29,099 --> 00:23:30,460
then they are start to be like, alright.

660
00:23:30,460 --> 00:23:30,960
Well,

661
00:23:31,335 --> 00:23:33,734
what am I doing? Right? And, and that's

662
00:23:33,734 --> 00:23:35,575
where and that's a dangerous place because I

663
00:23:35,575 --> 00:23:36,714
think that is why

664
00:23:37,494 --> 00:23:39,255
I think that is why the relapse rate

665
00:23:39,255 --> 00:23:42,454
is is fairly high within this field is

666
00:23:42,454 --> 00:23:44,954
I don't think that all the stones

667
00:23:45,494 --> 00:23:46,794
that need to be turned

668
00:23:47,149 --> 00:23:48,990
are being turned. You know, you've heard you

669
00:23:48,990 --> 00:23:50,429
guys have heard all the stains, right, no

670
00:23:50,429 --> 00:23:52,589
stone left unturned. I really do think that

671
00:23:52,589 --> 00:23:53,649
with sexual compulsivity,

672
00:23:54,589 --> 00:23:56,289
you need to be stone hunting

673
00:23:56,589 --> 00:23:57,089
for,

674
00:23:57,470 --> 00:23:59,149
I I would say, three years. I think

675
00:23:59,149 --> 00:24:00,509
you need to be I think you need

676
00:24:00,509 --> 00:24:01,125
to be with

677
00:24:01,684 --> 00:24:04,085
a killer therapist and with a really awesome

678
00:24:04,085 --> 00:24:06,244
recovery group of guys who you respect. And

679
00:24:06,244 --> 00:24:07,464
you and all the guys

680
00:24:07,845 --> 00:24:09,845
and all their therapists, you guys should become

681
00:24:09,845 --> 00:24:12,085
expert stone flippers and just be turning over

682
00:24:12,085 --> 00:24:13,525
every stone and then come back to your

683
00:24:13,525 --> 00:24:15,240
group and say, hey, guys. I flipped over

684
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:15,980
this stone.

685
00:24:16,279 --> 00:24:18,599
I didn't know that I latched on I

686
00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:20,140
had such a desire for,

687
00:24:20,519 --> 00:24:22,039
control and that I felt like everyone was

688
00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:24,039
trying to take away my individuality. Who else

689
00:24:24,039 --> 00:24:25,799
has this problem? You know, not everybody will

690
00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:27,240
raise their hand, but, you know, maybe another

691
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,440
one or two guys in your group will

692
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,734
be like, oh, yeah. I totally totally resonate

693
00:24:30,734 --> 00:24:32,335
with that. And then you guys start sharing

694
00:24:32,335 --> 00:24:34,514
therapy stories. But it's you know, to me,

695
00:24:34,734 --> 00:24:36,734
when we're looking at process addiction, we're looking

696
00:24:36,734 --> 00:24:38,914
at something as big and diverse as this.

697
00:24:40,174 --> 00:24:42,335
I think looking at as a at an

698
00:24:42,335 --> 00:24:44,575
addiction of, oh, I have not engaged in

699
00:24:44,575 --> 00:24:46,789
it, so now I am no longer dependent

700
00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:48,869
on these practices. And that's what I think

701
00:24:48,869 --> 00:24:51,830
that's dangerous because I don't necessarily think that

702
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:52,410
that is

703
00:24:52,789 --> 00:24:55,430
the driver of all of the behavior, and

704
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:56,250
I think that

705
00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:59,684
our recovery little bubble can sometimes give us

706
00:24:59,684 --> 00:25:02,325
a false perception of how recovered we actually

707
00:25:02,325 --> 00:25:04,085
are because, you know, it's pretty easy to

708
00:25:04,085 --> 00:25:05,845
be recovered when your wife's spying on you

709
00:25:05,845 --> 00:25:07,684
constantly and you're feeling horrible about what you

710
00:25:07,684 --> 00:25:10,005
did. But, you know, after three years go

711
00:25:10,005 --> 00:25:12,599
by, you're gonna feel less shame and guilt.

712
00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:14,059
It's, you know, it's just natural.

713
00:25:14,599 --> 00:25:16,859
And, you know, some of your wife's policing

714
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,160
might kind of scale down. And I think

715
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:20,680
that's when we see a lot of guys,

716
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,279
you know, unless you were flipping over all

717
00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:24,200
those stones. If you just flipped over two

718
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,259
of them, like, oh,

719
00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:26,380
porn and

720
00:25:26,984 --> 00:25:29,065
affairs and then sex workers, and you flipped

721
00:25:29,065 --> 00:25:30,424
over those three, and those are the only

722
00:25:30,424 --> 00:25:31,565
ones you flipped over,

723
00:25:32,505 --> 00:25:34,184
what about all the other ones? What about

724
00:25:34,184 --> 00:25:36,605
the what about your thirst for being

725
00:25:36,904 --> 00:25:38,125
recognized and appreciated?

726
00:25:38,505 --> 00:25:40,105
What about you know, there's a lot of

727
00:25:40,105 --> 00:25:40,890
other threats,

728
00:25:41,849 --> 00:25:44,089
that I think are not being addressed, and

729
00:25:44,089 --> 00:25:45,070
so they sit there

730
00:25:45,529 --> 00:25:47,930
doing the threatening that they've always done, and

731
00:25:47,930 --> 00:25:50,750
it places you at risk when or if

732
00:25:50,809 --> 00:25:52,570
a time where that shows up. You know?

733
00:25:52,570 --> 00:25:52,970
Here's

734
00:25:53,545 --> 00:25:55,704
before I let you go, Jeremy, here here's

735
00:25:55,704 --> 00:25:57,625
the thing I always say is, it's all

736
00:25:57,625 --> 00:25:59,945
fun and games until you guys are in

737
00:25:59,945 --> 00:26:02,345
the situation that you don't think is ever

738
00:26:02,345 --> 00:26:03,085
gonna happen.

739
00:26:03,945 --> 00:26:06,365
I've had that situation where you are aggressively,

740
00:26:06,664 --> 00:26:09,880
aggressively pursued by somebody who meets the arousal

741
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,119
template in a situation where you could get

742
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,440
away with it. And the only thing stopping

743
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,220
you is you stopping yourself.

744
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,759
What's gonna happen? And I would venture to

745
00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:20,599
say, you know, a lot of guys say,

746
00:26:20,599 --> 00:26:22,380
oh, I would never. I would never.

747
00:26:23,045 --> 00:26:25,045
I don't know, man. She meets your arousal

748
00:26:25,045 --> 00:26:26,804
template, and she comes on you in the

749
00:26:26,804 --> 00:26:29,765
perfect way that you have always wanted somebody

750
00:26:29,765 --> 00:26:30,744
to come on to you.

751
00:26:31,285 --> 00:26:33,924
Are you healthy enough to decline? And, again,

752
00:26:33,924 --> 00:26:35,285
I think it's easy to say on paper,

753
00:26:35,285 --> 00:26:36,809
oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't do that.

754
00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:38,410
I don't know, man. I've I've been to

755
00:26:38,410 --> 00:26:39,450
a lot of rooms and a lot of

756
00:26:39,450 --> 00:26:39,950
meetings.

757
00:26:40,650 --> 00:26:42,090
There's not a lot of men who pass

758
00:26:42,090 --> 00:26:44,090
on that opportunity. They all were they all

759
00:26:44,090 --> 00:26:45,549
regret it and wish they passed,

760
00:26:46,009 --> 00:26:48,110
but in the moment, they they didn't pass.

761
00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:50,170
They they took advantage of it, and,

762
00:26:50,794 --> 00:26:52,394
you know, unfortunately, it was when they came

763
00:26:52,394 --> 00:26:54,174
to, it was a little too late. So,

764
00:26:54,634 --> 00:26:56,394
you know, I just as we go down

765
00:26:56,394 --> 00:26:58,575
this, let's talk about quietly quitting

766
00:26:59,275 --> 00:27:01,994
therapy and, the length of this. Because I

767
00:27:01,994 --> 00:27:03,674
do, Jeremy. I think a lot of guys

768
00:27:03,835 --> 00:27:05,539
it breaks my heart to see them kinda

769
00:27:05,539 --> 00:27:07,220
pull out of therapy and say, oh, I'm

770
00:27:07,220 --> 00:27:09,539
recovered with an e d ending. And I

771
00:27:09,539 --> 00:27:11,400
think it's always scares me because,

772
00:27:12,099 --> 00:27:13,859
I will never put an e d after

773
00:27:13,859 --> 00:27:15,000
my recovery.

774
00:27:17,539 --> 00:27:18,039
Absolutely.

775
00:27:20,355 --> 00:27:20,855
Boy,

776
00:27:21,234 --> 00:27:24,195
you're right. We we as, therapists, we need

777
00:27:24,195 --> 00:27:24,994
to help them,

778
00:27:25,315 --> 00:27:26,055
turn over,

779
00:27:26,914 --> 00:27:28,914
the these stones, as you said, to be

780
00:27:28,914 --> 00:27:29,815
curious about

781
00:27:30,195 --> 00:27:32,615
their vulnerabilities, to do that inner work

782
00:27:33,070 --> 00:27:35,630
of, not just changing the behavior, but changing

783
00:27:35,630 --> 00:27:36,130
themselves.

784
00:27:37,070 --> 00:27:38,130
Mhmm. Understanding,

785
00:27:39,230 --> 00:27:42,029
what those stones are, where they are, their

786
00:27:42,029 --> 00:27:44,130
vulnerabilities so, that they can,

787
00:27:44,670 --> 00:27:46,430
ultimately become the kind of man that they

788
00:27:46,430 --> 00:27:47,490
wanna be. You know,

789
00:27:47,845 --> 00:27:48,345
Minwalla,

790
00:27:50,085 --> 00:27:51,924
if you're familiar with this, Yeah. It is

791
00:27:51,924 --> 00:27:53,785
true. Manuela. Yeah. Okay.

792
00:27:54,565 --> 00:27:57,065
He talks a lot about, integrity abuse,

793
00:27:57,365 --> 00:27:57,865
and,

794
00:27:59,605 --> 00:28:01,365
and I'm not, I don't I don't agree

795
00:28:01,365 --> 00:28:03,045
with every aspect of his model, but he

796
00:28:03,045 --> 00:28:05,039
did get, a lot of things right in

797
00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:06,480
terms of how,

798
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,579
we are out of integrity

799
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,160
when we're acting these ways. And that the,

800
00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:14,880
behavior that we're engaging in is really sort

801
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,960
of a mirror for what's going on for

802
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:17,619
us internally.

803
00:28:18,255 --> 00:28:19,875
Stopping the behavior is

804
00:28:20,494 --> 00:28:21,954
a wonderful and necessary

805
00:28:22,335 --> 00:28:24,755
beginning, but we also need to,

806
00:28:25,295 --> 00:28:26,515
really examine ourselves

807
00:28:27,375 --> 00:28:29,954
with a therapist and and with a group.

808
00:28:30,255 --> 00:28:32,369
Those are wonderful mirrors for who we are

809
00:28:32,369 --> 00:28:34,210
and can help us to understand ourselves and

810
00:28:34,210 --> 00:28:36,130
where we need to go in the process

811
00:28:36,130 --> 00:28:37,509
of our healing and transformation.

812
00:28:38,210 --> 00:28:40,210
You know, a lot of guys I talked

813
00:28:40,210 --> 00:28:40,710
to,

814
00:28:41,730 --> 00:28:43,990
they're they're maybe a year and a half,

815
00:28:44,765 --> 00:28:47,105
a year, maybe two years in recovery.

816
00:28:48,125 --> 00:28:50,205
They they've they've gone through the workbooks. They've

817
00:28:50,205 --> 00:28:52,384
gone through the workshops, the intensives even.

818
00:28:53,644 --> 00:28:55,025
And they feel okay

819
00:28:55,805 --> 00:28:57,505
in their recovery, but

820
00:28:57,869 --> 00:29:00,670
they often wonder, well, what now? Mhmm. I've

821
00:29:00,670 --> 00:29:02,589
I've talked about my trauma. I've done some

822
00:29:02,589 --> 00:29:03,089
EMDR.

823
00:29:03,390 --> 00:29:05,329
Right? And and if you don't know, EMDR,

824
00:29:05,630 --> 00:29:08,589
stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. It's

825
00:29:08,589 --> 00:29:10,849
a it's a form of treatment for trauma.

826
00:29:11,695 --> 00:29:13,215
Right? Maybe they've done some,

827
00:29:13,615 --> 00:29:14,654
other forms of,

828
00:29:15,134 --> 00:29:16,195
trauma work,

829
00:29:16,815 --> 00:29:18,355
but they ask themselves, well,

830
00:29:19,055 --> 00:29:21,055
where can my recovery go now? Mhmm. So

831
00:29:21,055 --> 00:29:23,295
they they are hungry for a place to

832
00:29:23,295 --> 00:29:23,795
go.

833
00:29:24,654 --> 00:29:24,975
But,

834
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,320
I I think that we, as sex addiction

835
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:28,820
therapists,

836
00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:31,700
we're we're we're still sort of thinking about

837
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,080
what that can look like. The some of

838
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,960
the, c stat materials can, can offer some

839
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:37,779
guides there.

840
00:29:38,375 --> 00:29:40,535
A lot of that's still married to, this

841
00:29:40,535 --> 00:29:41,515
12 step model.

842
00:29:42,295 --> 00:29:44,934
But I'm really passionate about helping men to

843
00:29:44,934 --> 00:29:45,434
develop

844
00:29:46,055 --> 00:29:47,035
healthy masculinity

845
00:29:47,575 --> 00:29:50,055
Mhmm. And understanding what that looks like on

846
00:29:50,055 --> 00:29:50,955
a deeper level

847
00:29:51,259 --> 00:29:53,759
so that they can affect that inner transformation

848
00:29:53,980 --> 00:29:55,980
that I think we all want Mhmm. Or

849
00:29:55,980 --> 00:29:58,140
before. Well, let's end the let's end the

850
00:29:58,140 --> 00:30:00,299
podcast with that because I think that is

851
00:30:00,460 --> 00:30:01,740
and you and I see eye to eye

852
00:30:01,740 --> 00:30:03,660
on that. I call it intentional living. You

853
00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:04,559
know, to me,

854
00:30:05,454 --> 00:30:08,254
where this whole thing came where this whole

855
00:30:08,254 --> 00:30:11,375
thing went wrong was when we started buying

856
00:30:11,375 --> 00:30:11,875
into

857
00:30:12,335 --> 00:30:13,554
ideas that

858
00:30:14,335 --> 00:30:15,315
weren't our own.

859
00:30:15,855 --> 00:30:17,454
I I always say, you know, I've never

860
00:30:17,454 --> 00:30:20,274
met a guy who intentionally lives his life

861
00:30:21,170 --> 00:30:23,650
driven by, you know, truth and the legacy

862
00:30:23,650 --> 00:30:25,410
he wants to live and the and the

863
00:30:25,410 --> 00:30:27,569
the the kind of honoring the life force

864
00:30:27,569 --> 00:30:29,410
inside of him. I've never met one who

865
00:30:29,410 --> 00:30:30,230
bangs hookers.

866
00:30:30,690 --> 00:30:31,349
I just,

867
00:30:31,650 --> 00:30:33,194
you know, I just, you know, to me,

868
00:30:33,194 --> 00:30:33,694
intentional

869
00:30:34,075 --> 00:30:36,875
living, it's just these guys don't cheat. They

870
00:30:36,875 --> 00:30:38,714
don't lie. They don't bend the truth when

871
00:30:38,714 --> 00:30:39,375
it's convenient.

872
00:30:39,755 --> 00:30:41,434
You know, to me, what we are

873
00:30:42,154 --> 00:30:43,595
to me and, again, this is where I

874
00:30:43,595 --> 00:30:45,160
get a lot of pushback from some of

875
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:46,920
the people in the field is, you know,

876
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,680
to me, I think we zoomed in a

877
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,000
little too far on the behaviors. I think

878
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,960
I don't think it's really rocket science, honestly.

879
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,480
I think I don't think this is really

880
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,640
that hard to figure out. Like, everyone's always

881
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,595
so shocked by the behaviors. I'm like, why?

882
00:31:00,075 --> 00:31:01,134
Sex is a,

883
00:31:01,755 --> 00:31:03,775
peak, you know, novel experience.

884
00:31:04,875 --> 00:31:05,615
Our culture

885
00:31:05,994 --> 00:31:06,494
continues

886
00:31:06,875 --> 00:31:08,015
everywhere you turn

887
00:31:08,554 --> 00:31:11,515
to place value on sex appeal, how many

888
00:31:11,515 --> 00:31:12,734
people want you.

889
00:31:13,370 --> 00:31:14,650
You know, it used to just be men

890
00:31:14,650 --> 00:31:16,730
were collecting women as trophies. Now in the

891
00:31:16,730 --> 00:31:19,049
last twenty years, women are fighting really, really

892
00:31:19,049 --> 00:31:20,809
hard to be trophy worthy. Right? So we

893
00:31:20,809 --> 00:31:22,590
have the systemic issue of

894
00:31:22,970 --> 00:31:24,730
both parties, how many women can I sleep

895
00:31:24,730 --> 00:31:27,105
with, and then women saying, well, how valuable

896
00:31:27,265 --> 00:31:29,505
how many how many of these desirable men

897
00:31:29,505 --> 00:31:31,345
find me desirable? Right? So we have both

898
00:31:31,345 --> 00:31:34,224
people playing this game at really high levels.

899
00:31:34,224 --> 00:31:36,224
We have companies who are helping us play

900
00:31:36,224 --> 00:31:37,605
the game by selling us

901
00:31:37,904 --> 00:31:40,305
brands and makeups and surgeries so that we

902
00:31:40,305 --> 00:31:41,445
can play the game better.

903
00:31:42,070 --> 00:31:43,869
And then, you know, you look out onto

904
00:31:43,869 --> 00:31:47,390
Hollywood icons and, social media, which, again, the

905
00:31:47,390 --> 00:31:49,650
brain when the brain looks at the television

906
00:31:49,710 --> 00:31:50,610
or the phone,

907
00:31:51,070 --> 00:31:53,549
the brain's assumption is that this is what

908
00:31:53,549 --> 00:31:55,470
everyone is looking at, and that's a very

909
00:31:55,470 --> 00:31:55,970
dangerous

910
00:31:56,295 --> 00:31:58,695
assumption that the brain makes because that's not

911
00:31:58,695 --> 00:31:59,195
true.

912
00:31:59,815 --> 00:32:01,595
You're being shown that, and you

913
00:32:02,215 --> 00:32:03,735
opened the app and you looked at the

914
00:32:03,815 --> 00:32:05,494
you know, so it's actually a lot more

915
00:32:05,494 --> 00:32:07,654
driven by you than normalization. But, anyways, my

916
00:32:07,654 --> 00:32:09,275
point of all of this, Jeremy, is,

917
00:32:10,750 --> 00:32:12,750
you know, I I think sometimes we zoom

918
00:32:12,750 --> 00:32:14,829
in a little too much on the sexual

919
00:32:14,829 --> 00:32:16,609
behaviors, and we, like,

920
00:32:17,869 --> 00:32:19,549
tweak them like there's some sort of thing

921
00:32:19,549 --> 00:32:21,309
that we're gonna see there. To me, this

922
00:32:21,309 --> 00:32:23,115
whole thing makes a ton of sense as

923
00:32:23,115 --> 00:32:25,035
to why people are latching on to this.

924
00:32:25,035 --> 00:32:26,714
It's it's one of the easiest things and

925
00:32:26,714 --> 00:32:28,875
most prevalent things to latch on to that's

926
00:32:28,875 --> 00:32:31,595
around here. But kinda to your point, as

927
00:32:31,595 --> 00:32:33,994
you're talking about kinda what you're what where

928
00:32:33,994 --> 00:32:34,894
you have found

929
00:32:35,195 --> 00:32:37,454
anchoring these men in something

930
00:32:37,755 --> 00:32:38,255
bigger,

931
00:32:39,419 --> 00:32:41,179
that to me is the way is where

932
00:32:41,179 --> 00:32:42,619
we go. So I think we we do

933
00:32:42,619 --> 00:32:44,460
the sobriety thing because it matters. You know,

934
00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:46,140
there's there's a lot of basic things that

935
00:32:46,140 --> 00:32:48,220
you need to educate yourself about with this,

936
00:32:48,220 --> 00:32:50,539
and all that stuff's extremely important. That's why

937
00:32:50,539 --> 00:32:52,299
I tell people, you know, even if you

938
00:32:52,299 --> 00:32:53,359
have another CSAT,

939
00:32:54,474 --> 00:32:55,994
sorry, even if you have another therapist who's

940
00:32:55,994 --> 00:32:57,914
not a CSAT, it never hurts to go

941
00:32:57,914 --> 00:32:59,595
ask your other therapist, hey. Do you mind

942
00:32:59,595 --> 00:33:01,914
if I, like, see a CSAT in addition

943
00:33:01,914 --> 00:33:03,674
to our therapy and you guys kinda work

944
00:33:03,674 --> 00:33:05,115
together just to get a little bit of

945
00:33:05,115 --> 00:33:08,095
that custom catered, stuff in the beginning?

946
00:33:09,149 --> 00:33:11,230
But, you know, to your point, okay. Here

947
00:33:11,230 --> 00:33:13,470
we are. We round that year, year and

948
00:33:13,470 --> 00:33:15,389
a half, and we're really need to shift

949
00:33:15,389 --> 00:33:17,309
gears. I think every guy listening to this

950
00:33:17,309 --> 00:33:19,069
knows, like, you got you hit that year

951
00:33:19,069 --> 00:33:20,595
and a half mark, and it's like, alright.

952
00:33:20,595 --> 00:33:22,515
I can only talk about sex and porn

953
00:33:22,515 --> 00:33:24,674
so long. Like, it's time to kind of

954
00:33:24,674 --> 00:33:26,115
move on, and that's where I call it

955
00:33:26,115 --> 00:33:28,275
intentional living. You kinda really call it stepping

956
00:33:28,275 --> 00:33:28,775
into,

957
00:33:29,875 --> 00:33:32,275
you know, more of a aligned or, you

958
00:33:32,275 --> 00:33:33,990
know, get getting right with some of the

959
00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:35,710
stuff going. Now let's talk about that. I'd

960
00:33:35,710 --> 00:33:37,890
love to hear your definition. So what is

961
00:33:38,029 --> 00:33:39,789
you know, when they're at that one, one

962
00:33:39,789 --> 00:33:41,390
point five year mark or two year mark,

963
00:33:41,390 --> 00:33:42,829
whenever it is that they start to feel

964
00:33:42,829 --> 00:33:44,990
like they're entering, like, hey. I'm ready to

965
00:33:44,990 --> 00:33:45,490
graduate

966
00:33:45,789 --> 00:33:48,750
from talking incessantly about sex and porn. What

967
00:33:48,750 --> 00:33:51,294
is that sixth gear for you? And then,

968
00:33:51,615 --> 00:33:53,615
I'll kinda share what my definition of it

969
00:33:53,615 --> 00:33:54,274
is too.

970
00:33:54,575 --> 00:33:56,254
Oh, yeah. I wanna hear what you have

971
00:33:56,254 --> 00:33:58,515
to say first. First. Yeah. I'll go first.

972
00:33:58,575 --> 00:33:59,694
And I write this for those of you

973
00:33:59,694 --> 00:34:00,974
who haven't listened to it. My book is

974
00:34:00,974 --> 00:34:02,494
now on Audible too. So for those of

975
00:34:02,494 --> 00:34:04,095
you who don't wanna have a Sex Ocean

976
00:34:04,095 --> 00:34:05,750
book laying around in your house, which I

977
00:34:05,750 --> 00:34:07,829
understand, it is now on Audible for those

978
00:34:07,829 --> 00:34:09,429
of you wanna listen to it. So I

979
00:34:09,429 --> 00:34:10,789
talk about this in the very, very last

980
00:34:10,789 --> 00:34:12,650
chapter, and I call it intentional living.

981
00:34:12,949 --> 00:34:14,409
I don't like the word recovery,

982
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:16,570
or addiction because I think it just muddies

983
00:34:16,630 --> 00:34:18,425
something that doesn't need to be muddy. I

984
00:34:18,425 --> 00:34:19,465
just I don't I don't think we need

985
00:34:19,465 --> 00:34:21,385
to pathologize this. I I really don't. I

986
00:34:21,385 --> 00:34:23,224
think it makes tons of sense. You wanna

987
00:34:23,224 --> 00:34:24,605
sleep with hot chicks.

988
00:34:24,905 --> 00:34:26,605
That I don't think we need to pathologize

989
00:34:26,664 --> 00:34:28,425
that. I think that makes perfect sense. I

990
00:34:28,425 --> 00:34:30,105
think you are hiding it from your wife

991
00:34:30,105 --> 00:34:31,640
because I think your wife doesn't wanna know

992
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:32,380
that information.

993
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,200
So I don't I think I think I

994
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,200
think we've pathologized this almost a little too

995
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,800
much. I think I think this makes a

996
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,079
ton of sense if we look at the

997
00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:41,160
culture that we live in and the TV

998
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:42,920
shows and movies that we've watched over the

999
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,414
last sixty, seventy years.

1000
00:34:44,894 --> 00:34:47,454
But anyways, to me, it's just intentional living.

1001
00:34:47,454 --> 00:34:49,215
I'll I'll boil it down to this, Jeremy.

1002
00:34:49,215 --> 00:34:50,114
Where we shift,

1003
00:34:50,414 --> 00:34:51,695
what do you want? What do you wanna

1004
00:34:51,695 --> 00:34:54,195
feel? You wanna feel admired, respected, appreciated,

1005
00:34:54,815 --> 00:34:56,894
included? You wanna feel like people are gonna

1006
00:34:56,894 --> 00:34:59,309
miss you when you're gone? Then fucking build

1007
00:34:59,309 --> 00:35:01,390
a life where people feel that way, end

1008
00:35:01,390 --> 00:35:03,630
of discussion. What does banging hookers have to

1009
00:35:03,630 --> 00:35:05,070
do with any of that? What is you

1010
00:35:05,070 --> 00:35:07,390
trying to divorce your old wife and then

1011
00:35:07,390 --> 00:35:09,950
upgrade to a 22 year old? Like like,

1012
00:35:09,950 --> 00:35:11,150
what does any of that have to do

1013
00:35:11,150 --> 00:35:14,275
with respect, admiration, appreciation, legacy, and being missed

1014
00:35:14,275 --> 00:35:15,954
when you're gone? So to me, I could

1015
00:35:15,954 --> 00:35:17,315
go on and on and on about this,

1016
00:35:17,315 --> 00:35:18,215
but to me,

1017
00:35:18,755 --> 00:35:20,675
when I when guys join my group and

1018
00:35:20,675 --> 00:35:22,994
we together try to intentionally live our life

1019
00:35:22,994 --> 00:35:24,210
and chase things that are actually

1020
00:35:25,409 --> 00:35:27,383
actually gonna deliver on the feelings that we

1021
00:35:27,383 --> 00:35:28,250
really want, they start to realize that all

1022
00:35:28,250 --> 00:35:30,289
these sexual things are stupid, and they're only

1023
00:35:30,289 --> 00:35:32,369
gonna harm their ability to actually get there.

1024
00:35:32,369 --> 00:35:34,449
It's that simple. When you realize that your

1025
00:35:34,449 --> 00:35:35,429
methods suck,

1026
00:35:36,210 --> 00:35:38,984
humans want to thrive. I've never there's no

1027
00:35:38,984 --> 00:35:41,364
such thing as a human who wants to

1028
00:35:41,385 --> 00:35:43,545
live a shitty life and destroy their legacy.

1029
00:35:43,545 --> 00:35:46,025
There's nothing that's that isn't the thing. And

1030
00:35:46,025 --> 00:35:48,184
so if you if we can just start

1031
00:35:48,184 --> 00:35:50,460
to show that your maladaptive behaviors are actually

1032
00:35:50,460 --> 00:35:53,260
tarnishing your legacy and helping and furthering you

1033
00:35:53,260 --> 00:35:55,260
away from the man you wanna be, it's

1034
00:35:55,260 --> 00:35:57,019
that easy. And then we just replace them

1035
00:35:57,019 --> 00:35:59,179
with behaviors that that they get there. I

1036
00:35:59,179 --> 00:36:01,019
mean, it's not to me, I think we

1037
00:36:01,019 --> 00:36:01,519
overcomplicate

1038
00:36:01,820 --> 00:36:04,380
this with arousal templates, and I I don't

1039
00:36:04,380 --> 00:36:05,679
know if that's always

1040
00:36:06,155 --> 00:36:07,594
where we need to go with this. I

1041
00:36:07,594 --> 00:36:09,434
think sometimes I think it's okay to let

1042
00:36:09,434 --> 00:36:11,054
it be easier than it is.

1043
00:36:11,914 --> 00:36:14,234
I love that. I love that. That's a

1044
00:36:14,234 --> 00:36:14,734
wonderful,

1045
00:36:15,514 --> 00:36:17,375
picture of what it means to live intentionally.

1046
00:36:17,434 --> 00:36:17,934
I

1047
00:36:18,250 --> 00:36:19,230
I talk about,

1048
00:36:20,090 --> 00:36:22,750
living in integrity a lot. But I also,

1049
00:36:23,289 --> 00:36:24,110
ask guys,

1050
00:36:26,730 --> 00:36:29,450
what in your life gets you purpose? Mhmm.

1051
00:36:29,450 --> 00:36:32,090
What what imparts a sense of meaning? I

1052
00:36:32,090 --> 00:36:33,710
know of no better antidote

1053
00:36:34,184 --> 00:36:34,585
to,

1054
00:36:34,985 --> 00:36:37,385
addiction or compulsive behavior than living life with

1055
00:36:37,385 --> 00:36:38,684
purpose and meaning. Mhmm.

1056
00:36:39,065 --> 00:36:40,445
Finding a sense of fulfillment.

1057
00:36:40,824 --> 00:36:43,164
Because the sexual behaviors that you're engaging

1058
00:36:43,945 --> 00:36:45,644
in are just a shadow

1059
00:36:46,769 --> 00:36:48,929
of what you're really trying to create in

1060
00:36:48,929 --> 00:36:50,849
your life. And they're not gonna give you

1061
00:36:50,849 --> 00:36:51,829
what you're after.

1062
00:36:52,449 --> 00:36:53,190
They're not.

1063
00:36:54,610 --> 00:36:56,309
It's how we deceive ourselves

1064
00:36:56,610 --> 00:36:58,449
or or or how we chase our tails

1065
00:36:58,449 --> 00:37:00,210
in in in thinking that they will in

1066
00:37:00,210 --> 00:37:01,795
some degree, and that's the cycle that we

1067
00:37:01,795 --> 00:37:02,614
get caught in.

1068
00:37:02,914 --> 00:37:04,835
But when we actually get sober, we can

1069
00:37:04,835 --> 00:37:07,315
start to ask ourselves these questions that really

1070
00:37:07,315 --> 00:37:09,315
matter. How do I I love that word

1071
00:37:09,315 --> 00:37:10,994
legacy. How do I create the kind of

1072
00:37:10,994 --> 00:37:12,215
legacy that I want?

1073
00:37:13,074 --> 00:37:14,675
What kind of man do I wanna be?

1074
00:37:14,914 --> 00:37:17,070
What kind of relationships do I wanna have?

1075
00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:20,449
And how do I step into that?

1076
00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:23,150
It's okay not to know. It's okay not

1077
00:37:23,150 --> 00:37:25,710
to and and that's where we we make

1078
00:37:25,710 --> 00:37:28,110
meaning together. We make a meaning of your

1079
00:37:28,110 --> 00:37:30,610
life. For me, I became a therapist because

1080
00:37:30,755 --> 00:37:32,454
I became an addiction therapist because

1081
00:37:32,755 --> 00:37:34,835
I have my own story with addiction. Mhmm.

1082
00:37:34,835 --> 00:37:36,755
Right? And so I find great purpose in

1083
00:37:36,755 --> 00:37:39,255
meaning in helping others find their way out.

1084
00:37:39,474 --> 00:37:41,715
And I couldn't care less about the term

1085
00:37:41,715 --> 00:37:43,715
addiction as well because call it what you

1086
00:37:43,715 --> 00:37:45,815
want, it's still wrecking your life.

1087
00:37:46,359 --> 00:37:48,280
And you need to find your way out

1088
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,039
into a life of meaning and purposes to

1089
00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:53,079
film it because that, I think, is the

1090
00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:54,799
kind of legacy that you wanna lead. Mhmm.

1091
00:37:54,799 --> 00:37:56,280
And Well, and if we're gonna use the

1092
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:57,960
you know, I call it self mastery. But

1093
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,039
if we're gonna use the word recovery, what

1094
00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:01,179
Jeremy just said

1095
00:38:01,755 --> 00:38:03,835
is why we call it recovery. Right? It

1096
00:38:03,835 --> 00:38:06,394
was it's recovering what was lost. Michelle May

1097
00:38:06,394 --> 00:38:07,994
said something to me once, which I really

1098
00:38:07,994 --> 00:38:08,894
thought was great.

1099
00:38:09,275 --> 00:38:10,875
She actually took a little beef with the

1100
00:38:10,875 --> 00:38:12,494
word recovery too just because,

1101
00:38:14,394 --> 00:38:15,840
what if you never had it?

1102
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,559
Right? What if it was never lost? What

1103
00:38:18,559 --> 00:38:20,400
if you never what if you're what if

1104
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,239
you never what if your sense of self

1105
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,900
was taken from you so long ago?

1106
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,000
You were never taught what you were. You

1107
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,434
were never taught what a sense of self

1108
00:38:29,434 --> 00:38:31,195
was. You were never exposed to the truth

1109
00:38:31,195 --> 00:38:32,175
to begin with.

1110
00:38:32,635 --> 00:38:34,795
Is recovery even then the right word? Right?

1111
00:38:34,795 --> 00:38:35,295
Because,

1112
00:38:35,675 --> 00:38:37,434
recovering what was lost, in theory, it was

1113
00:38:37,434 --> 00:38:39,275
taken from you before you remember. So in

1114
00:38:39,275 --> 00:38:41,514
theory, you know, recovery is still probably the

1115
00:38:41,514 --> 00:38:43,710
right word. Right? Because it is in you

1116
00:38:43,710 --> 00:38:45,630
and will forever be in you. And whenever

1117
00:38:45,630 --> 00:38:47,650
you wanna tap into it, it's there.

1118
00:38:48,030 --> 00:38:49,949
And you will stop, you know, all of

1119
00:38:49,949 --> 00:38:51,869
your behavior the day you tap into it.

1120
00:38:51,869 --> 00:38:53,150
That's which is what Jeremy and I are

1121
00:38:53,150 --> 00:38:54,989
talking about. You know? That's intentional living to

1122
00:38:54,989 --> 00:38:55,574
me is,

1123
00:38:56,375 --> 00:38:58,214
I'm gonna be driven by this life force

1124
00:38:58,214 --> 00:38:59,734
inside of me that compels me to do

1125
00:38:59,734 --> 00:39:01,494
awesome stuff because when I'm compelled by that

1126
00:39:01,494 --> 00:39:03,414
life force, he never cheats on his wife.

1127
00:39:03,414 --> 00:39:05,094
He never tells a lie. He doesn't see

1128
00:39:05,094 --> 00:39:07,014
a benefit in lying. Right? You know, there

1129
00:39:07,094 --> 00:39:09,255
there's a thing inside of us that knows

1130
00:39:09,255 --> 00:39:11,369
what to do, and we often don't listen

1131
00:39:11,369 --> 00:39:13,329
to it because we're like, oh, that's stupid.

1132
00:39:13,329 --> 00:39:15,570
That doesn't make enough money. Or, oh, that's

1133
00:39:15,570 --> 00:39:18,130
dumb. No. Why why take a ceramics class?

1134
00:39:18,130 --> 00:39:19,510
No one cares about ceramics.

1135
00:39:19,809 --> 00:39:21,170
You should just go work and make more

1136
00:39:21,170 --> 00:39:22,849
money and buy fancy shit. Right? Like, we

1137
00:39:22,849 --> 00:39:26,070
have these desires that we ignore, tamp down,

1138
00:39:26,130 --> 00:39:27,724
and don't pay attention

1139
00:39:28,184 --> 00:39:29,405
to. And, again, I think

1140
00:39:29,785 --> 00:39:31,785
all of these behaviors, whether it's a sex

1141
00:39:31,785 --> 00:39:33,945
addiction or you just like to buy expensive

1142
00:39:33,945 --> 00:39:35,545
stuff and show off, I like, I don't

1143
00:39:35,545 --> 00:39:37,785
care what you're doing. To me, I look

1144
00:39:37,785 --> 00:39:38,985
at it all the same. I don't, you

1145
00:39:38,985 --> 00:39:41,465
know, I don't demonize any one maladaptive behavior

1146
00:39:41,465 --> 00:39:43,309
more than the other. To me, anything that

1147
00:39:43,309 --> 00:39:46,269
is not true is, you know, Don Miguel

1148
00:39:46,269 --> 00:39:47,710
says this well. The only sin in the

1149
00:39:47,710 --> 00:39:49,170
world is sinned against self.

1150
00:39:49,469 --> 00:39:51,309
And I love that Don Miguel says that

1151
00:39:51,309 --> 00:39:52,690
because it's so true. Like,

1152
00:39:53,070 --> 00:39:54,829
you know, you shouldn't really be that worried

1153
00:39:54,829 --> 00:39:56,775
about all the stuff that you're doing. But

1154
00:39:56,775 --> 00:39:59,414
when you know better and there's something inside

1155
00:39:59,414 --> 00:40:01,175
of you that's telling you to be more,

1156
00:40:01,175 --> 00:40:02,795
do more, be more honest,

1157
00:40:03,255 --> 00:40:06,054
and you go against it, okay. That's a

1158
00:40:06,054 --> 00:40:07,494
sin. But outside of that, you know, he's

1159
00:40:07,494 --> 00:40:10,199
like, stop zooming in and shaming stuff. Like,

1160
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,920
you need to tap into you because all

1161
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,199
the other stuff, it's not a sin. You're

1162
00:40:14,199 --> 00:40:15,800
not even you're not even you weren't yourself

1163
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,039
in the beginning. You didn't bang that hooker.

1164
00:40:18,039 --> 00:40:20,699
Some idiot that you invented banged that hooker.

1165
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,679
Right? Like, you were you were never you.

1166
00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:23,880
The last time you were you, you were

1167
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:24,380
four.

1168
00:40:24,924 --> 00:40:26,444
Right? And I bet you that four year

1169
00:40:26,444 --> 00:40:28,764
old would not have paid a woman to

1170
00:40:28,764 --> 00:40:31,164
sleep with him because he wasn't jacked up

1171
00:40:31,164 --> 00:40:33,085
yet. Right? So that's really you know, when

1172
00:40:33,085 --> 00:40:35,264
I hear recovery, that's what I hear is

1173
00:40:35,404 --> 00:40:36,924
there was once a version of you who

1174
00:40:36,924 --> 00:40:38,924
would not force a young woman to have

1175
00:40:38,924 --> 00:40:40,889
sex with you for money. How do we

1176
00:40:40,889 --> 00:40:42,190
get back to that guy?

1177
00:40:42,809 --> 00:40:43,309
Yeah.

1178
00:40:43,690 --> 00:40:47,049
Your true self. Mhmm. Your authentic self. And

1179
00:40:47,049 --> 00:40:50,670
we construct these false selves that get preoccupied

1180
00:40:50,969 --> 00:40:53,690
with status with women, with with whatever we

1181
00:40:53,690 --> 00:40:55,389
chase so that we can,

1182
00:40:56,804 --> 00:40:57,465
try to

1183
00:40:57,925 --> 00:40:59,925
tend to our wounds or help ourselves feel

1184
00:40:59,925 --> 00:41:03,144
well. No. Aligning with that sense of purpose

1185
00:41:03,284 --> 00:41:05,525
and that true self. I love that, that

1186
00:41:05,525 --> 00:41:08,644
energy that you described. You feel that when

1187
00:41:08,644 --> 00:41:11,045
you are aligned with that, don't you? Mhmm.

1188
00:41:11,045 --> 00:41:13,360
Oh, yeah. Oh, it's one of the best.

1189
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:14,719
It's a it's a that's why I always

1190
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,079
tell everybody, you know, I have a chapter

1191
00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:17,679
in my book that's called recovery is not

1192
00:41:17,679 --> 00:41:18,260
a burden

1193
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:19,140
because

1194
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:20,340
if

1195
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,000
this is the best, you know, it's and

1196
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,360
it's a really hard thing to say in

1197
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:24,795
front of your wife. But, I mean, you

1198
00:41:24,795 --> 00:41:26,315
know, all the guys in all of my

1199
00:41:26,315 --> 00:41:28,474
recovery groups will say this is the best

1200
00:41:28,474 --> 00:41:29,835
thing that ever happened to me. I would

1201
00:41:29,835 --> 00:41:31,934
have never I've never been forced

1202
00:41:32,954 --> 00:41:33,454
to

1203
00:41:33,755 --> 00:41:35,594
tap into a part to this part of

1204
00:41:35,594 --> 00:41:37,034
me. I would have just kept doing the

1205
00:41:37,034 --> 00:41:38,250
capitalist thing and,

1206
00:41:38,730 --> 00:41:41,449
you know, retired with 24 mil and,

1207
00:41:42,250 --> 00:41:43,369
you know, that would have been the end

1208
00:41:43,369 --> 00:41:44,730
of my that would have been just the

1209
00:41:44,730 --> 00:41:46,010
peak of my life. And I would have

1210
00:41:46,010 --> 00:41:48,010
tried to convince myself that my life was

1211
00:41:48,010 --> 00:41:50,090
meaningful, and I would buy things to try

1212
00:41:50,090 --> 00:41:52,114
to state that case. But in the end,

1213
00:41:52,114 --> 00:41:53,474
you know, these guys get in my group,

1214
00:41:53,474 --> 00:41:55,474
and it's like, man, I would have never

1215
00:41:55,474 --> 00:41:56,855
I would have never been alive

1216
00:41:57,234 --> 00:42:00,454
had I not been forced to figure out

1217
00:42:00,994 --> 00:42:03,155
who I actually am. And, and that's the

1218
00:42:03,155 --> 00:42:04,434
gift. You know? That's the gift. And that's

1219
00:42:04,434 --> 00:42:05,610
why that's why when you meet

1220
00:42:06,570 --> 00:42:08,590
recovered addicts or recovering addicts,

1221
00:42:09,210 --> 00:42:11,210
all of them have a very healthy the

1222
00:42:11,210 --> 00:42:12,970
people in good recovery, I should say, have

1223
00:42:12,970 --> 00:42:15,630
a very healthy relationship with their addiction because

1224
00:42:16,090 --> 00:42:17,570
it was just such a gift. You know?

1225
00:42:17,570 --> 00:42:19,050
The work that it forced them to do,

1226
00:42:19,050 --> 00:42:20,430
they're like, man, can you imagine

1227
00:42:20,730 --> 00:42:22,724
living a life without without having to have

1228
00:42:22,724 --> 00:42:24,164
seen some of these things? I mean, you

1229
00:42:24,164 --> 00:42:25,444
know, what kind of life would that have

1230
00:42:25,444 --> 00:42:28,885
been? Right? So, Jeremy, if, if people wanna

1231
00:42:28,885 --> 00:42:29,704
find you,

1232
00:42:30,005 --> 00:42:32,105
learn more about you, where is your practice,

1233
00:42:33,284 --> 00:42:35,764
who's on your team, what what what, what

1234
00:42:35,764 --> 00:42:37,170
kind of people do you work with? Do

1235
00:42:37,170 --> 00:42:38,690
you work with the partners? Talk to us

1236
00:42:38,690 --> 00:42:39,969
a bit about your practice and where you're

1237
00:42:39,969 --> 00:42:40,469
licensed.

1238
00:42:41,089 --> 00:42:42,389
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So,

1239
00:42:43,570 --> 00:42:46,150
our, practice is called the Center for Integrative

1240
00:42:46,369 --> 00:42:46,869
Change,

1241
00:42:47,650 --> 00:42:49,909
and we're located in Ventura, California

1242
00:42:50,210 --> 00:42:53,164
and in, Cranberry Township just North of Pittsburgh.

1243
00:42:53,864 --> 00:42:54,905
We're looking at,

1244
00:42:55,465 --> 00:42:58,285
expanding. So, be on the lookout for that.

1245
00:42:58,664 --> 00:42:59,324
We have,

1246
00:43:01,864 --> 00:43:04,344
both, licensed and pre licensed therapists in our

1247
00:43:04,344 --> 00:43:06,505
team. We're we're we have training in,

1248
00:43:07,039 --> 00:43:09,679
in sexually compulsive behaviors and in betrayal traumas.

1249
00:43:09,679 --> 00:43:12,019
We work with, not only betraying partners,

1250
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:13,780
addicts, but also with,

1251
00:43:15,519 --> 00:43:17,440
betrayed partners as well as well as with

1252
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:18,159
couples. So,

1253
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:21,859
we work with, with all of the aspects

1254
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,695
of this this addiction. Mhmm. What's the, what's

1255
00:43:24,695 --> 00:43:26,934
this, website? What's the best way for them

1256
00:43:26,934 --> 00:43:28,775
to to try and find it? Yeah. The

1257
00:43:28,775 --> 00:43:29,675
website is,

1258
00:43:30,295 --> 00:43:33,195
centerforintegrativechange.com.

1259
00:43:33,255 --> 00:43:34,795
Integrativewithav.

1260
00:43:35,109 --> 00:43:37,269
And if you guys wanna Google, Jeremy, it's

1261
00:43:37,269 --> 00:43:39,510
Jeremy Mass for those of you who, are

1262
00:43:39,510 --> 00:43:41,589
just trying to, make a quick Google and

1263
00:43:41,589 --> 00:43:43,030
you're listening to this on your headphones at

1264
00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:45,109
the at the gym. But, Jeremy, this was

1265
00:43:45,109 --> 00:43:46,789
fun, man. I knew I knew right when

1266
00:43:46,789 --> 00:43:47,355
we met,

1267
00:43:48,474 --> 00:43:50,474
that you and I kinda see saw things

1268
00:43:50,474 --> 00:43:52,155
align, you know, the size of this thing,

1269
00:43:52,155 --> 00:43:53,914
the diversity of this thing. And, you know,

1270
00:43:53,914 --> 00:43:55,355
and I think, you know, you and I

1271
00:43:55,355 --> 00:43:57,114
just wanna help. So to me, I don't

1272
00:43:57,114 --> 00:43:58,474
give a shit what we call it. I

1273
00:43:58,474 --> 00:44:00,074
don't care I don't care what the name

1274
00:44:00,074 --> 00:44:01,594
is. I don't care. If you guys wanna

1275
00:44:01,594 --> 00:44:03,920
pathologize it, fine. If you don't wanna pathologize

1276
00:44:03,980 --> 00:44:05,739
it, then don't. You know, I was that

1277
00:44:05,739 --> 00:44:06,900
guy, you know, like, when I was going

1278
00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:08,619
to twelve step, I actually told my twelve

1279
00:44:08,619 --> 00:44:11,420
step group. I said this is this sounds

1280
00:44:11,420 --> 00:44:13,119
so horrible. I said, hey,

1281
00:44:13,820 --> 00:44:15,659
I'm gonna skip the first ten minutes. I'm

1282
00:44:15,659 --> 00:44:17,875
gonna be in my car. It is purely

1283
00:44:17,875 --> 00:44:20,034
because I just don't agree with the stuff

1284
00:44:20,034 --> 00:44:21,554
you guys are gonna say in the intro.

1285
00:44:21,554 --> 00:44:23,074
I'm gonna join you when we start to,

1286
00:44:23,074 --> 00:44:25,634
like, just be humans together. And, I just

1287
00:44:25,634 --> 00:44:26,755
told them that and I sat in the

1288
00:44:26,755 --> 00:44:28,674
car, and I came in at ten after

1289
00:44:28,674 --> 00:44:30,755
the hour when they stopped with all their

1290
00:44:30,755 --> 00:44:31,255
powerlessness

1291
00:44:32,019 --> 00:44:33,780
negative nonsense, and I joined in and I

1292
00:44:33,780 --> 00:44:35,619
said, hey, let's, you know, let's let's let's

1293
00:44:35,619 --> 00:44:38,260
just be brothers now trying to overcome something

1294
00:44:38,260 --> 00:44:39,780
and and get that out of our life.

1295
00:44:40,420 --> 00:44:42,579
And then, I would leave as it wrapped

1296
00:44:42,579 --> 00:44:44,514
up. I would leave, and the big thing

1297
00:44:44,514 --> 00:44:46,034
was I'm not gonna you're not gonna catch

1298
00:44:46,034 --> 00:44:47,875
me say I'm rolling. I am a this.

1299
00:44:47,875 --> 00:44:49,235
No. I'm not. I'm just rolling. It's all

1300
00:44:49,235 --> 00:44:50,755
I am. I'm I'm just rolling. I'm just

1301
00:44:50,755 --> 00:44:52,534
trying to figure some things out. And so

1302
00:44:52,835 --> 00:44:54,275
I say that last little bit of the

1303
00:44:54,275 --> 00:44:54,775
story

1304
00:44:55,715 --> 00:44:57,094
to encourage guys. Guys,

1305
00:44:57,394 --> 00:44:59,589
make this recovery your own. If you don't

1306
00:44:59,589 --> 00:45:01,030
agree with something, you don't gotta do it.

1307
00:45:01,030 --> 00:45:02,630
If you need if you wanna change some

1308
00:45:02,630 --> 00:45:04,789
things up, change it. If you, want to

1309
00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:07,829
your therapist wanna help you, tell your therapist

1310
00:45:07,829 --> 00:45:09,030
what you need. If you guys don't know

1311
00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:10,889
what stones to turn over, ask,

1312
00:45:11,204 --> 00:45:12,724
Right? Like, say, hey. I I I feel

1313
00:45:12,724 --> 00:45:14,565
like I'm just sober, but I'm not recovering.

1314
00:45:14,565 --> 00:45:16,244
Like, take this into your own hands. If

1315
00:45:16,244 --> 00:45:18,085
you're just sitting back and waiting for your

1316
00:45:18,085 --> 00:45:20,724
meetings and your therapist to help you, guys,

1317
00:45:20,724 --> 00:45:22,265
it is gonna take forever

1318
00:45:22,724 --> 00:45:24,005
for you to get to the place you

1319
00:45:24,005 --> 00:45:25,785
wanna go to. Jeremy, final thoughts?

1320
00:45:27,780 --> 00:45:31,079
Thank you for this wonderful conversation. And,

1321
00:45:31,780 --> 00:45:34,019
and and you're right. Let's help as many

1322
00:45:34,019 --> 00:45:35,000
people as we can.

1323
00:45:35,300 --> 00:45:36,579
That's in the end. At the end of

1324
00:45:36,579 --> 00:45:37,780
the day, this is what this is all

1325
00:45:37,780 --> 00:45:38,280
about.

1326
00:45:38,739 --> 00:45:40,360
Thanks for listening to this episode.

1327
00:45:40,664 --> 00:45:42,105
If you are a high achiever with a

1328
00:45:42,105 --> 00:45:43,945
sex addiction and you're looking for a recovery

1329
00:45:43,945 --> 00:45:47,545
group full of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1330
00:45:47,545 --> 00:45:50,425
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1331
00:45:50,425 --> 00:45:51,644
using four day retreats,

1332
00:45:51,945 --> 00:45:54,809
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1333
00:45:54,809 --> 00:45:57,049
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1334
00:45:57,049 --> 00:45:59,130
save your marriage, go to our website, fill

1335
00:45:59,130 --> 00:45:59,869
out our application.

1336
00:46:00,170 --> 00:46:02,650
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1337
00:46:02,650 --> 00:46:04,329
along to a friend in recovery who would

1338
00:46:04,329 --> 00:46:06,250
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1339
00:46:06,250 --> 00:46:07,972
get this information out to as many high

1340
00:46:07,972 --> 00:46:10,213
achievers as possible, and I can't do it

1341
00:46:10,213 --> 00:46:11,192
without your help.