93. How Can You Show a Betrayed Partner That You’re In Good Recovery? | The Successful Addict

Uploaded Jan 13, 2026

93. How Can You Show a Betrayed Partner That You’re In Good Recovery?

In this episode, Michelle Edsall joins me in a discussion on “good recovery” and how sex addicts can show betrayed partners that they are putting in the work.

We talk about common triggers and questions that betrayed partners often ask men in recovery.

Learning how to navigate these difficult conversations is critical when it comes to healing your marriage and establishing a sense of safety.

For those of you interested in working with Michelle, you can find her here: https://www.counselingcenterwm.org/provider/michelleedsall

If you have yet to read my book, you can find it here in print and in Audiobook format: https://a.co/d/ir3JXwt

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

1
00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:02,080
Am I still an addict? Am I in

2
00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:04,160
good recovery? Is this gonna happen again? Right?

3
00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,080
These are all questions that both addicts and

4
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,240
betrayed partners ask themselves all the time. And

5
00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,639
in this episode, I'm joined by Michelle Edsel.

6
00:00:10,639 --> 00:00:12,880
Michelle and I are going to explore how

7
00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,359
do you navigate this relationally. Right? How do

8
00:00:15,359 --> 00:00:17,295
you show your wife that you are actually

9
00:00:17,355 --> 00:00:18,954
safe to be with and that she can

10
00:00:18,954 --> 00:00:20,635
count on you to put in the work

11
00:00:20,635 --> 00:00:21,135
necessary

12
00:00:21,595 --> 00:00:22,494
to heal the marriage?

13
00:00:23,195 --> 00:00:25,295
You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

14
00:00:25,355 --> 00:00:28,494
for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

15
00:00:28,954 --> 00:00:31,539
This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

16
00:00:31,539 --> 00:00:34,739
recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

17
00:00:34,739 --> 00:00:35,399
high achiever.

18
00:00:35,780 --> 00:00:38,100
I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

19
00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:40,659
Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

20
00:00:40,659 --> 00:00:43,059
men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

21
00:00:43,059 --> 00:00:45,379
more information about joining our group or attending

22
00:00:45,379 --> 00:00:48,445
our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

23
00:00:48,445 --> 00:00:50,625
And now enjoy the rest of the episode.

24
00:00:51,965 --> 00:00:54,445
Hello, everybody. I am here with Michelle Itzel.

25
00:00:54,445 --> 00:00:54,945
Michelle,

26
00:00:55,325 --> 00:00:56,524
man, it's been a long time in the

27
00:00:56,524 --> 00:00:58,125
making. My gosh. I think we met, like,

28
00:00:58,125 --> 00:01:00,219
what, a couple a couple months ago. But

29
00:01:00,219 --> 00:01:02,219
I'm stoked about this conversation. We're gonna talk

30
00:01:02,219 --> 00:01:02,719
about,

31
00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:04,780
and this is gonna be pertinent to both

32
00:01:04,780 --> 00:01:06,939
sides, you know, the trade partners and the

33
00:01:06,939 --> 00:01:09,200
men. Right? All of you guys have been

34
00:01:09,420 --> 00:01:10,560
accused, asked,

35
00:01:11,019 --> 00:01:12,640
you know, been put in that tough situation

36
00:01:12,780 --> 00:01:14,674
where your wife is wondering,

37
00:01:14,974 --> 00:01:16,814
are you still an addict? Are you still

38
00:01:16,814 --> 00:01:19,454
checking out women? Are you, and then you

39
00:01:19,454 --> 00:01:21,854
often were probably asking yourself the same question.

40
00:01:22,094 --> 00:01:24,015
Am I still an addict? You know, where

41
00:01:24,015 --> 00:01:26,814
is the line between, you know, normal sexual

42
00:01:26,814 --> 00:01:30,530
attraction and sex appeal and impulsive behavior, addictive

43
00:01:30,530 --> 00:01:31,509
behavior, objectification.

44
00:01:32,290 --> 00:01:34,310
And then, of course, you know, we're gonna

45
00:01:34,369 --> 00:01:36,689
try and do our best to educate both

46
00:01:36,689 --> 00:01:38,209
parties on, you know, how to have a

47
00:01:38,209 --> 00:01:40,875
constructive conversation about this. Because this, you know,

48
00:01:41,034 --> 00:01:43,194
I'll speak to personal experience. This is this

49
00:01:43,194 --> 00:01:44,715
is can be a heated this can be

50
00:01:44,715 --> 00:01:46,715
a heated discussion. You know? It's it's very

51
00:01:46,715 --> 00:01:48,814
activating and triggering to your partner to

52
00:01:49,194 --> 00:01:51,435
hear that you still find women attractive. That

53
00:01:51,435 --> 00:01:53,609
does not feel very good to her. But

54
00:01:53,609 --> 00:01:55,489
at the same time, we're also not expecting

55
00:01:55,489 --> 00:01:56,549
you guys to

56
00:01:56,930 --> 00:01:57,430
completely

57
00:01:57,890 --> 00:01:59,510
take away some of these biological

58
00:02:00,049 --> 00:02:01,890
inherent desires that you have. Right? So how

59
00:02:01,890 --> 00:02:03,510
do we have this discussion with our partners?

60
00:02:03,569 --> 00:02:05,409
How do you know if it's unhealthy? You

61
00:02:05,409 --> 00:02:06,769
know, Michelle and I are gonna try to

62
00:02:06,769 --> 00:02:07,995
clear a lot of that up. This has

63
00:02:07,995 --> 00:02:10,495
been this is something I personally have wondered.

64
00:02:10,634 --> 00:02:12,014
And just as a disclaimer,

65
00:02:12,395 --> 00:02:13,594
you know, this is gonna be kind of

66
00:02:13,594 --> 00:02:15,275
a gray area. I thought, you know, Michelle

67
00:02:15,275 --> 00:02:17,675
and I are not claiming to know where

68
00:02:17,675 --> 00:02:19,935
the line is. What we're talking about is

69
00:02:19,995 --> 00:02:22,169
it is gray. What we're trying to do

70
00:02:22,169 --> 00:02:24,270
is help you guys have a constructive

71
00:02:24,729 --> 00:02:25,229
conversation

72
00:02:25,530 --> 00:02:26,969
about this. Because I think, you know, to

73
00:02:26,969 --> 00:02:29,610
me, at least my opinion, Michelle, I think

74
00:02:29,610 --> 00:02:32,009
this is a debate that men should probably

75
00:02:32,009 --> 00:02:32,669
be wondering

76
00:02:33,064 --> 00:02:34,664
for the rest of their lives. I I

77
00:02:34,664 --> 00:02:36,864
always wonder, hey, was you know, is that

78
00:02:36,985 --> 00:02:38,504
how healthy is that? Right? And I think

79
00:02:38,504 --> 00:02:39,865
this is just something that should stay in

80
00:02:39,865 --> 00:02:41,705
your consciousness forever just just to keep you

81
00:02:41,705 --> 00:02:43,865
safe. Michelle, how about you kinda define the

82
00:02:43,865 --> 00:02:46,444
difference? Like, there is a difference between

83
00:02:47,099 --> 00:02:48,960
sexual attraction, sex appeal,

84
00:02:49,419 --> 00:02:50,560
a biological desire,

85
00:02:50,860 --> 00:02:51,360
and

86
00:02:51,659 --> 00:02:52,159
objectification.

87
00:02:52,939 --> 00:02:54,860
Right? There is a difference between that. How

88
00:02:54,860 --> 00:02:56,460
do you kind of if you were to

89
00:02:56,460 --> 00:02:58,560
define the difference between the two and kind

90
00:02:58,780 --> 00:03:00,080
of define the line,

91
00:03:00,939 --> 00:03:02,414
how do you articulate that?

92
00:03:02,974 --> 00:03:05,294
Yeah. Well, I can just go to what

93
00:03:05,294 --> 00:03:07,474
would be the extremes. You know, objectification is,

94
00:03:09,254 --> 00:03:11,314
I mean, it's in the word object.

95
00:03:11,614 --> 00:03:14,174
I'm looking at this person as an object,

96
00:03:14,174 --> 00:03:16,435
not as a whole human. It has emotions.

97
00:03:16,574 --> 00:03:18,194
That's somebody's mother,

98
00:03:18,550 --> 00:03:19,050
sister,

99
00:03:19,669 --> 00:03:20,169
whatever,

100
00:03:20,550 --> 00:03:23,189
wife. It's just an object of whether it's

101
00:03:23,189 --> 00:03:23,689
sexual

102
00:03:24,150 --> 00:03:26,550
or whatever. There's just not a lot around

103
00:03:26,550 --> 00:03:28,650
that. So there that's a simpler

104
00:03:29,189 --> 00:03:29,689
definition

105
00:03:30,150 --> 00:03:31,209
of objectification.

106
00:03:33,189 --> 00:03:33,689
Healthy

107
00:03:34,474 --> 00:03:35,615
sexual desire,

108
00:03:37,034 --> 00:03:39,594
I mean, when you look at someone, men

109
00:03:39,594 --> 00:03:41,754
men in particular are very visually wired. So

110
00:03:41,754 --> 00:03:44,235
when you look at someone, someone catches your

111
00:03:44,235 --> 00:03:46,014
eye, that's not objectification.

112
00:03:46,810 --> 00:03:48,909
There's an object that you see,

113
00:03:49,370 --> 00:03:52,590
and that that's what starts the ball rolling

114
00:03:52,650 --> 00:03:53,150
for

115
00:03:53,689 --> 00:03:56,489
desire. Now is this person the one like,

116
00:03:56,489 --> 00:03:58,590
if you're with somebody and you're monogamous,

117
00:03:59,050 --> 00:04:00,989
that desire now becomes inappropriate.

118
00:04:02,055 --> 00:04:03,895
Just in general, now is it full on

119
00:04:03,895 --> 00:04:04,395
objectification?

120
00:04:05,335 --> 00:04:08,055
No. Because we're the ball's rolling, the dominoes

121
00:04:08,055 --> 00:04:09,354
are falling. And where

122
00:04:09,655 --> 00:04:11,495
where is it for each person becomes a

123
00:04:11,495 --> 00:04:13,655
little bit different because each person's strategy and

124
00:04:13,655 --> 00:04:14,715
how they use objectification

125
00:04:15,650 --> 00:04:17,910
is a bit personal to their own story.

126
00:04:18,210 --> 00:04:20,290
Mhmm. Yeah. I I I think you're here's

127
00:04:20,290 --> 00:04:22,050
the way I you know, I'm a big

128
00:04:22,050 --> 00:04:24,050
process addiction guy. That's what this is. I

129
00:04:24,050 --> 00:04:25,410
actually am not a fan of this being

130
00:04:25,410 --> 00:04:27,330
called sex and porn addiction. I think that's

131
00:04:27,330 --> 00:04:29,730
just inaccurate. This is classified as a process

132
00:04:29,730 --> 00:04:31,675
addiction. So the way I kind of, you

133
00:04:31,675 --> 00:04:32,794
know, police my own,

134
00:04:34,235 --> 00:04:36,334
desire or or objective is

135
00:04:37,754 --> 00:04:39,435
is am I when I'm looking at this

136
00:04:39,435 --> 00:04:43,115
person, am I activating those problematic processes that

137
00:04:43,115 --> 00:04:44,970
have become compulsive or addictive for me? So

138
00:04:44,970 --> 00:04:46,730
for me, personally, I'll speak to my own

139
00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:48,430
addiction. Mine is a lot around,

140
00:04:49,129 --> 00:04:50,670
being wanted, being desired.

141
00:04:51,210 --> 00:04:53,370
So when I look, it's okay. Is this

142
00:04:53,370 --> 00:04:54,670
a is her attention,

143
00:04:56,014 --> 00:04:57,694
mean meaningful to me? Is she is she

144
00:04:57,774 --> 00:04:59,134
you know, it sounds so horrible, but, you

145
00:04:59,134 --> 00:05:00,595
know, in my addicted mind,

146
00:05:01,134 --> 00:05:02,355
process addicted mind,

147
00:05:02,735 --> 00:05:04,735
is she hot enough to the point where

148
00:05:04,735 --> 00:05:07,055
her attention is valuable to me? And and

149
00:05:07,055 --> 00:05:08,814
that just, you know, sounds yucky to say,

150
00:05:08,814 --> 00:05:10,415
but that was how my old brain thought

151
00:05:10,415 --> 00:05:12,289
was, oh, wow. She's

152
00:05:12,589 --> 00:05:14,849
she's really, really hot. She would be classified

153
00:05:14,909 --> 00:05:17,470
as somebody hard to sleep with, so, therefore,

154
00:05:17,470 --> 00:05:18,050
her attention

155
00:05:18,430 --> 00:05:20,750
holds more value. So now when she's in

156
00:05:20,750 --> 00:05:22,509
the gym, yeah, sure. I'm checking her out

157
00:05:22,509 --> 00:05:23,789
a little bit, but I'm checking her out

158
00:05:23,789 --> 00:05:25,409
to see if she if her attention's

159
00:05:25,985 --> 00:05:28,225
meaningful to me. And then I'm going back

160
00:05:28,225 --> 00:05:30,305
and seeing how much attention am I getting

161
00:05:30,305 --> 00:05:32,464
from her for kind of the remainder of

162
00:05:32,464 --> 00:05:33,904
the time at the gym or wherever I'm

163
00:05:33,904 --> 00:05:34,805
at. Right? So,

164
00:05:35,345 --> 00:05:37,904
or whatever your process addiction is. You know,

165
00:05:37,904 --> 00:05:40,829
mine was really self centered. Mine was, you

166
00:05:40,829 --> 00:05:43,230
know, it is this person's attention validate me

167
00:05:43,230 --> 00:05:44,910
in the way that I wanna be validated.

168
00:05:44,910 --> 00:05:46,829
If I if I got looks from her

169
00:05:46,829 --> 00:05:48,430
and all the other guys could see that

170
00:05:48,430 --> 00:05:50,189
she was the one she was looking at

171
00:05:50,189 --> 00:05:52,750
me more than them, would that mean that

172
00:05:52,750 --> 00:05:54,689
I'm better than them? Would they be envious

173
00:05:54,750 --> 00:05:57,435
of of her attention towards me? Right? That's

174
00:05:57,435 --> 00:05:58,574
how I kinda police,

175
00:05:59,435 --> 00:06:01,774
my personal compulsive behavior is,

176
00:06:02,074 --> 00:06:04,714
am I running those problematic programs on this

177
00:06:04,714 --> 00:06:06,795
individual, or is or am am I just

178
00:06:06,795 --> 00:06:08,910
letting her be pretty and leaving it there?

179
00:06:09,149 --> 00:06:11,069
Right? And and I think, guys, I think

180
00:06:11,069 --> 00:06:12,589
you gotta be honest. Right? You know, for

181
00:06:12,589 --> 00:06:15,889
me, my processes become activated when I'm feeling

182
00:06:15,949 --> 00:06:18,449
inadequate, when I'm feeling behind. And so

183
00:06:18,990 --> 00:06:20,850
you could go to the gym on Tuesday,

184
00:06:22,204 --> 00:06:24,125
be a beautiful woman, let her be beautiful,

185
00:06:24,125 --> 00:06:25,404
and just kinda move on and carry on

186
00:06:25,404 --> 00:06:27,324
with your life. Wednesday, you could have a

187
00:06:27,324 --> 00:06:29,324
couple of deals fall through on Tuesday. You

188
00:06:29,324 --> 00:06:31,245
might be in an argument with your wife

189
00:06:31,245 --> 00:06:33,164
that morning about a trigger or some and

190
00:06:33,164 --> 00:06:35,069
you could start feeling like a crappy husband,

191
00:06:35,069 --> 00:06:37,230
like a crappy professional. And now all of

192
00:06:37,230 --> 00:06:40,110
a sudden, those processes are there hungry. Right?

193
00:06:40,110 --> 00:06:42,189
Like, hey. Somebody tell me I'm important. Somebody

194
00:06:42,189 --> 00:06:44,430
tell me I'm special. So I I that's

195
00:06:44,430 --> 00:06:46,029
kind of my you know, from an addict's

196
00:06:46,029 --> 00:06:48,485
perspective, that's kind of my definition is, am

197
00:06:48,485 --> 00:06:51,205
I running those programs when I'm seeing this

198
00:06:51,205 --> 00:06:52,884
individual? And that kinda gives me an idea

199
00:06:52,884 --> 00:06:54,564
of, you know, how safe am I? Because

200
00:06:54,564 --> 00:06:55,925
I I I do agree with you. I

201
00:06:55,925 --> 00:06:58,085
think because this is a process addiction, every

202
00:06:58,085 --> 00:07:00,504
guy has a different narrative that they're chasing

203
00:07:00,564 --> 00:07:01,225
when they're

204
00:07:01,605 --> 00:07:03,649
doing their thing. And I think, you know,

205
00:07:03,649 --> 00:07:05,409
I think the problem with defining it too

206
00:07:05,409 --> 00:07:07,089
black and white is, you know, we might

207
00:07:07,089 --> 00:07:09,329
not we might miss your processes, and that

208
00:07:09,329 --> 00:07:11,250
doesn't let you off the hook. I think

209
00:07:11,250 --> 00:07:13,250
as a as somebody with a process addiction,

210
00:07:13,250 --> 00:07:14,769
you need to understand what yours is, and

211
00:07:14,769 --> 00:07:16,129
you need to understand if you're if you're

212
00:07:16,129 --> 00:07:17,810
doing it. And that that to me, that's

213
00:07:17,810 --> 00:07:20,045
how I kinda police it. So as we,

214
00:07:20,745 --> 00:07:22,025
what I'd love to do before we dive

215
00:07:22,025 --> 00:07:23,384
in in more is I think what I'd

216
00:07:23,384 --> 00:07:24,824
love to kind of speak to the betrayed

217
00:07:24,824 --> 00:07:27,064
partner's perspective around this and then the addict's

218
00:07:27,064 --> 00:07:29,324
perspective around this in terms of how hard

219
00:07:30,105 --> 00:07:32,504
this is to now deal with within your

220
00:07:32,504 --> 00:07:33,465
within your marriage.

221
00:07:33,865 --> 00:07:35,990
So let's first start with a betrayed partner's

222
00:07:35,990 --> 00:07:37,750
perspective. I'm not gonna speak to it because

223
00:07:37,750 --> 00:07:41,430
I've never been a female betrayed partner from

224
00:07:41,430 --> 00:07:43,589
a sexually compulsive male. So I'm gonna let

225
00:07:43,589 --> 00:07:45,750
you kinda handle that one. Talk to me

226
00:07:45,750 --> 00:07:47,845
around the struggle with this. Like, right, you

227
00:07:47,845 --> 00:07:49,365
know, I don't think these women are stupid.

228
00:07:49,365 --> 00:07:50,584
I think they know that

229
00:07:50,884 --> 00:07:53,044
they find men attractive too, and they expect

230
00:07:53,044 --> 00:07:54,485
us to to do the same. So they're

231
00:07:54,485 --> 00:07:56,324
not idiots there, and they're not expecting us

232
00:07:56,324 --> 00:07:56,985
to just

233
00:07:57,365 --> 00:07:58,345
defy humanity.

234
00:07:58,889 --> 00:08:00,889
But this is, this is a real touchy

235
00:08:00,889 --> 00:08:02,250
topic. I want you to speak to kinda

236
00:08:02,250 --> 00:08:04,169
their experience so that men can kind of

237
00:08:04,169 --> 00:08:04,669
understand

238
00:08:04,970 --> 00:08:06,350
how hard this is for them.

239
00:08:07,129 --> 00:08:07,789
It is.

240
00:08:08,410 --> 00:08:11,449
And being a former betrayed partner myself, I

241
00:08:11,449 --> 00:08:13,154
have my own experience to be able to

242
00:08:13,154 --> 00:08:14,834
speak from, and so I'll probably land a

243
00:08:14,834 --> 00:08:16,915
lot from that area along with pulling in

244
00:08:16,915 --> 00:08:17,654
some of the

245
00:08:18,194 --> 00:08:18,694
information

246
00:08:19,314 --> 00:08:20,935
of women I've worked with.

247
00:08:23,875 --> 00:08:25,975
To be a woman and knowing,

248
00:08:26,529 --> 00:08:28,930
like, the shattering moment of discovery and then

249
00:08:28,930 --> 00:08:30,009
knowing you were

250
00:08:30,449 --> 00:08:32,690
have been objectified and that feeling that you've

251
00:08:32,690 --> 00:08:34,450
had in your body all along that wasn't

252
00:08:34,450 --> 00:08:36,529
really right and be able to put words

253
00:08:36,529 --> 00:08:37,190
to it,

254
00:08:37,889 --> 00:08:41,190
it's it's really deeply wounding. And then

255
00:08:41,855 --> 00:08:44,195
if as a woman, if I've had

256
00:08:44,575 --> 00:08:46,815
any thoughts about, am I pretty enough? Am

257
00:08:46,815 --> 00:08:48,834
I enough? I'm, you know,

258
00:08:49,214 --> 00:08:49,714
whatever,

259
00:08:50,735 --> 00:08:52,834
that goes crashing into

260
00:08:53,294 --> 00:08:53,794
this

261
00:08:54,450 --> 00:08:54,950
wound,

262
00:08:55,330 --> 00:08:57,990
and it really creates a gaping hole.

263
00:08:58,370 --> 00:08:59,269
And so as

264
00:09:00,529 --> 00:09:02,950
as we're trying to heal through with

265
00:09:03,410 --> 00:09:05,269
a spouse or person, partner,

266
00:09:05,610 --> 00:09:06,110
in

267
00:09:06,450 --> 00:09:08,629
this process, it can get really tricky because

268
00:09:08,825 --> 00:09:10,985
it can feel poked often because if you

269
00:09:10,985 --> 00:09:12,504
look at her, then I must not be

270
00:09:12,504 --> 00:09:15,144
enough. Mhmm. And that's not really what it's

271
00:09:15,144 --> 00:09:18,504
about. It's not it has nothing actually to

272
00:09:18,504 --> 00:09:20,105
do with me. I could it could be

273
00:09:20,105 --> 00:09:21,485
anybody over here.

274
00:09:22,264 --> 00:09:22,764
Beautiful,

275
00:09:23,144 --> 00:09:24,365
not whatever.

276
00:09:24,799 --> 00:09:27,120
Beauty to me is also inside out, not

277
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:28,019
outside in.

278
00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,000
And that is really hard as a female

279
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,559
to hold that the look he just did

280
00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,039
over there is because he's got stuff going

281
00:09:37,039 --> 00:09:38,019
on inside

282
00:09:38,674 --> 00:09:40,995
that he is navigating for his own worth

283
00:09:40,995 --> 00:09:41,814
and value.

284
00:09:42,274 --> 00:09:45,254
Mhmm. And that but it knocks ours

285
00:09:46,115 --> 00:09:48,914
completely upside down. And that's like, oh, I'm

286
00:09:48,914 --> 00:09:50,754
not enough. Am I am I am I

287
00:09:50,754 --> 00:09:53,279
skiing up? Am I performing enough? Am I

288
00:09:53,759 --> 00:09:56,340
whatever enough? Like, that vicious circle.

289
00:09:59,440 --> 00:09:59,940
So

290
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:01,860
healing through that,

291
00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:02,980
it's important

292
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,800
that both sides understand it. And, from the

293
00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,024
betrayed partner's perspective, healing through that also means

294
00:10:10,024 --> 00:10:10,524
owning

295
00:10:11,625 --> 00:10:14,605
my own wounds that came before it. Mhmm.

296
00:10:14,824 --> 00:10:16,605
How this, like, actually

297
00:10:16,985 --> 00:10:18,845
landed inside the objectification

298
00:10:19,304 --> 00:10:22,079
wound as well. How they just end up

299
00:10:22,079 --> 00:10:23,220
in the same bucket.

300
00:10:23,839 --> 00:10:24,339
And

301
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,379
being able to know I can be objectified,

302
00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,600
and I'm okay. Mhmm. I'm no longer in

303
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:32,100
danger

304
00:10:33,279 --> 00:10:35,445
from the outside world or even the person

305
00:10:35,445 --> 00:10:38,565
I'm with because I've connected and healed towards

306
00:10:38,565 --> 00:10:41,284
myself enough Mhmm. That it's not danger anymore,

307
00:10:41,284 --> 00:10:42,584
and I can tell the difference.

308
00:10:43,524 --> 00:10:45,365
That makes sense? Yeah. Yeah. What I find

309
00:10:45,365 --> 00:10:47,284
for, you know, in my experience with my

310
00:10:47,284 --> 00:10:48,500
wife is it

311
00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:49,039
it

312
00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:52,659
it's it's such a hard thing because

313
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,840
this a lot of this was going on

314
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,779
in her brain and in our culture

315
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,399
before I did this to her. And so

316
00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:01,779
it's really tough because

317
00:11:03,004 --> 00:11:05,825
it's like she doesn't wanna blame me because,

318
00:11:05,884 --> 00:11:07,644
yes, a lot of this is an internal

319
00:11:07,644 --> 00:11:08,144
narrative,

320
00:11:08,764 --> 00:11:11,105
of hers that she is in control over,

321
00:11:11,245 --> 00:11:13,565
and our society was doing a lot of

322
00:11:13,565 --> 00:11:16,205
this before I did it before I did

323
00:11:16,205 --> 00:11:17,870
the things I did to her. But at

324
00:11:17,870 --> 00:11:20,470
the same time, it wasn't an issue until

325
00:11:20,470 --> 00:11:21,589
I did this. So I think what I

326
00:11:21,589 --> 00:11:23,450
would say for the guys to be sensitive

327
00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:26,470
is you guys are the reason this is

328
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:28,789
a problem because she wasn't an idiot. She

329
00:11:28,789 --> 00:11:31,455
knew we lived in a hypersexual culture. She's

330
00:11:31,455 --> 00:11:33,695
not she's not stupid. She knows plastic surgery

331
00:11:33,695 --> 00:11:35,295
is up 990%,

332
00:11:35,615 --> 00:11:37,934
from just last year alone. Like, she's not

333
00:11:37,934 --> 00:11:40,095
dumb. She knows that we live in a

334
00:11:40,095 --> 00:11:41,394
place that is overemphasizing

335
00:11:42,014 --> 00:11:44,915
the female figure, and women are fighting to

336
00:11:45,375 --> 00:11:48,160
look impossibly good forever. And,

337
00:11:48,879 --> 00:11:50,899
but, you know, she didn't think that

338
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:53,840
you were a part of that. She thought

339
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,600
that you and her were special. And so

340
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,860
that's kind of the gut punches. It's like,

341
00:11:58,245 --> 00:12:00,164
she knew there was all this ugliness, and

342
00:12:00,164 --> 00:12:02,004
then now by you doing this, you kinda

343
00:12:02,004 --> 00:12:03,524
become one of them. I think that's the

344
00:12:03,524 --> 00:12:05,705
thing that I've really started to realize is,

345
00:12:07,205 --> 00:12:08,804
you know, I'm one of the bad guys

346
00:12:08,804 --> 00:12:10,419
now. And and that and that sucks, But

347
00:12:10,419 --> 00:12:11,860
at the same time, I've also come to

348
00:12:11,860 --> 00:12:12,919
terms with it because

349
00:12:13,460 --> 00:12:16,259
I can't necessarily disagree. If I'm really honest,

350
00:12:16,259 --> 00:12:18,360
you know, have I been have I partaken

351
00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:21,059
in a lot of that stuff? You know,

352
00:12:21,299 --> 00:12:24,660
you know, that masculine entitlement, masculine culture around

353
00:12:24,660 --> 00:12:25,160
females,

354
00:12:25,664 --> 00:12:26,644
the over objectification

355
00:12:26,945 --> 00:12:29,044
and the value of the female figure,

356
00:12:29,504 --> 00:12:31,584
the youth of a female figure, the perfection

357
00:12:31,584 --> 00:12:34,084
of the female figure. Yeah. Absolutely. I've participated.

358
00:12:34,304 --> 00:12:36,705
I've I've I've I have. And and I

359
00:12:36,705 --> 00:12:37,904
can't I can't look at her in the

360
00:12:37,904 --> 00:12:39,360
eye and say I haven't. And so it's

361
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,779
it's this really elephant in the room that

362
00:12:42,079 --> 00:12:44,720
we can't necessarily say that we haven't participated

363
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,799
in. And and the irony is she can't

364
00:12:46,799 --> 00:12:48,879
say she hasn't either. Right? And that's the

365
00:12:48,879 --> 00:12:51,200
trick with these poor women. Like, you guys

366
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:52,799
just have it so rough. I mean, you're

367
00:12:52,799 --> 00:12:56,004
you're you're constantly being forced to get prettier,

368
00:12:56,004 --> 00:12:57,625
get skinnier, look younger.

369
00:12:58,644 --> 00:13:00,644
You know, now with plastic surgery not being

370
00:13:00,644 --> 00:13:02,085
something you have to hide, you can, like,

371
00:13:02,085 --> 00:13:04,085
get it and talk about it openly on

372
00:13:04,085 --> 00:13:06,264
social media. It's no longer it's no longer

373
00:13:06,410 --> 00:13:07,929
the secretive thing you have to hide. It's

374
00:13:07,929 --> 00:13:09,929
almost like a it's just like buying a

375
00:13:09,929 --> 00:13:11,610
new handbag now at this point in time.

376
00:13:11,610 --> 00:13:13,129
It's it's it's a rough it's a rough

377
00:13:13,129 --> 00:13:14,809
place, but I that's the thing that I

378
00:13:14,809 --> 00:13:17,070
really come to terms with is,

379
00:13:18,090 --> 00:13:20,330
I did participate, and I don't have the

380
00:13:20,330 --> 00:13:22,004
leverage to tell her that I haven't. It's

381
00:13:22,004 --> 00:13:23,764
just this you know, the the the best

382
00:13:23,764 --> 00:13:24,964
way I found a way to deal with

383
00:13:24,964 --> 00:13:25,625
it is

384
00:13:26,404 --> 00:13:28,325
I am sad that it's the way it

385
00:13:28,325 --> 00:13:30,004
is for her. I'm sad that it's the

386
00:13:30,004 --> 00:13:32,164
way it is for men. And, I don't

387
00:13:32,164 --> 00:13:33,845
know. Can can we fight it together? Can

388
00:13:33,845 --> 00:13:35,820
we can we come together and acknowledge that

389
00:13:35,820 --> 00:13:38,139
it's really sad that that culture has gone

390
00:13:38,139 --> 00:13:39,759
this way? And can we kind of unsubscribe

391
00:13:40,059 --> 00:13:40,799
as a couple?

392
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:43,200
But again, that's tough because in her brain,

393
00:13:43,340 --> 00:13:45,759
I subscribe and she's constantly wondering,

394
00:13:46,220 --> 00:13:47,899
am I just saying this because I got

395
00:13:47,899 --> 00:13:49,995
caught? Right? Am I do I really wanna

396
00:13:49,995 --> 00:13:51,835
unsubscribe? And, you know, I think that's the

397
00:13:51,835 --> 00:13:53,995
challenge with losing her trust is, you know,

398
00:13:53,995 --> 00:13:55,595
how does she know that I don't wanna

399
00:13:55,595 --> 00:13:58,554
participate anymore? And, it's tough. Like, I you

400
00:13:58,554 --> 00:14:00,075
know, how do I prove that to her?

401
00:14:00,075 --> 00:14:01,995
Right? You know, other than my actions every

402
00:14:01,995 --> 00:14:02,730
day, but

403
00:14:03,289 --> 00:14:04,570
it it puts us in this in this

404
00:14:04,570 --> 00:14:06,009
difficult mind. Any any you wanna say to

405
00:14:06,009 --> 00:14:07,449
that before we kind of switch over to

406
00:14:07,449 --> 00:14:08,429
the addict struggle?

407
00:14:09,049 --> 00:14:10,589
I do. I just wanna add,

408
00:14:11,289 --> 00:14:13,870
yes, what can you do? But I also

409
00:14:14,009 --> 00:14:16,029
encourage men I work with is

410
00:14:16,575 --> 00:14:19,295
how much of your heart can you show

411
00:14:19,295 --> 00:14:22,335
and give? Because that's really where us women

412
00:14:22,335 --> 00:14:25,054
are wired for to see you is through

413
00:14:25,054 --> 00:14:27,535
your heart. Your actions sometimes can just be

414
00:14:27,535 --> 00:14:28,115
a checklist.

415
00:14:29,370 --> 00:14:30,990
Sometimes, not all the time.

416
00:14:32,009 --> 00:14:34,750
And acts of service can be amazing except

417
00:14:35,129 --> 00:14:37,129
if I can't get your heart in there,

418
00:14:37,129 --> 00:14:39,470
because guess what? We as women, we're wired

419
00:14:39,610 --> 00:14:41,769
to birth, whether we give birth or not,

420
00:14:41,769 --> 00:14:43,529
we're wired to attune to things that don't

421
00:14:43,529 --> 00:14:46,195
speak. Yeah. We're wired to attune to this

422
00:14:46,195 --> 00:14:48,514
world and all the nonverbals and all the

423
00:14:48,514 --> 00:14:49,014
energetic

424
00:14:49,475 --> 00:14:49,975
shifts.

425
00:14:50,514 --> 00:14:53,475
And so whether you verbally say something from

426
00:14:53,475 --> 00:14:56,514
your heart, we can feel it. Yeah, 100%.

427
00:14:56,514 --> 00:14:57,575
But can you energetically

428
00:14:57,955 --> 00:14:59,850
give of that space?

429
00:15:00,389 --> 00:15:02,470
That's the magic to me. Yeah. It is.

430
00:15:02,470 --> 00:15:04,169
And I and I think it's hard.

431
00:15:04,549 --> 00:15:06,090
And I think this is where I like

432
00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:08,710
the concept of process addiction better than sex

433
00:15:08,710 --> 00:15:09,690
addiction is

434
00:15:10,149 --> 00:15:12,950
she is not stupid. She know she knows

435
00:15:12,950 --> 00:15:14,554
what these processes are. You know, one of

436
00:15:14,554 --> 00:15:15,715
the things that my wife said to me

437
00:15:15,715 --> 00:15:18,434
all the time, which is painful to remember

438
00:15:18,434 --> 00:15:20,754
because I denied it, but she was right.

439
00:15:20,754 --> 00:15:22,115
She always said, I don't feel like you're

440
00:15:22,115 --> 00:15:24,514
priority a lot of the times. And she

441
00:15:24,514 --> 00:15:26,274
was right. When I was in my process

442
00:15:26,274 --> 00:15:29,629
addiction, usually at conferences or fundraisers or anywhere

443
00:15:29,629 --> 00:15:31,169
where I'm, like, schmoozing people,

444
00:15:31,710 --> 00:15:34,529
my she wasn't. My priority was enhancing

445
00:15:34,990 --> 00:15:37,889
myself, my potential, my position in the industry,

446
00:15:37,950 --> 00:15:38,450
my,

447
00:15:38,909 --> 00:15:40,669
the opportunities that I was gonna get, and

448
00:15:40,669 --> 00:15:42,590
she would see me shift into that gear.

449
00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:43,995
Right? And so I think where a lot

450
00:15:43,995 --> 00:15:46,235
of the safety comes from, you know, guys,

451
00:15:46,235 --> 00:15:47,355
you know, they keep saying, oh, I'm not

452
00:15:47,355 --> 00:15:48,795
doing it. I'm not doing it. I'm doing

453
00:15:48,795 --> 00:15:51,195
this. I'm doing you know, to me, that's

454
00:15:51,195 --> 00:15:54,254
not the safety. The safety is your awareness

455
00:15:54,634 --> 00:15:56,875
of the game that you were playing and

456
00:15:56,875 --> 00:15:57,375
your

457
00:15:58,370 --> 00:15:59,330
tools and,

458
00:16:01,409 --> 00:16:03,909
you know, the work you've done to recognize

459
00:16:03,970 --> 00:16:05,330
that. I think, you know, to me, when

460
00:16:05,330 --> 00:16:07,090
you guys can speak to it, I think

461
00:16:07,090 --> 00:16:08,690
that's what really packs the punch. When you

462
00:16:08,690 --> 00:16:10,610
can say, hey, honey, you know, I I

463
00:16:10,610 --> 00:16:12,375
just wanted to call something out.

464
00:16:12,934 --> 00:16:15,334
I'm finding myself, you know, I'm really in

465
00:16:15,334 --> 00:16:17,254
people pleasing mode right now. And I'm I'm

466
00:16:17,254 --> 00:16:19,014
I'm fighting it, but I'm I'm losing the

467
00:16:19,014 --> 00:16:21,095
battle. And just kind of owning it,

468
00:16:21,495 --> 00:16:23,589
that's safety. Right? It's the awareness. You know,

469
00:16:23,589 --> 00:16:25,029
she doesn't expect you to be perfect, but

470
00:16:25,029 --> 00:16:27,509
it's that, hey. I'm seeing this happen, and

471
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:29,909
I can recognize I'm becoming a little egoic

472
00:16:29,909 --> 00:16:31,450
and and less authentic. Right?

473
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:34,470
So let's go into the haddock experience. Oh

474
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:36,710
my gosh. Just I'll start with this one.

475
00:16:37,750 --> 00:16:39,110
And then you can speak to it, of

476
00:16:39,110 --> 00:16:39,404
course.

477
00:16:40,605 --> 00:16:42,605
Oh my gosh. I hate I hate this

478
00:16:42,605 --> 00:16:43,665
topic because

479
00:16:44,445 --> 00:16:46,465
since I was probably

480
00:16:46,845 --> 00:16:47,345
10,

481
00:16:48,445 --> 00:16:51,165
my friends and I have I would say

482
00:16:51,165 --> 00:16:52,764
from I hate and, again, I hate this

483
00:16:52,764 --> 00:16:54,730
about male culture. I would say from probably

484
00:16:54,730 --> 00:16:56,669
10, 12 to 22,

485
00:16:57,450 --> 00:17:01,129
the focus was pretty much getting laid, getting

486
00:17:01,129 --> 00:17:03,049
getting the hottest girlfriend you can. It was

487
00:17:03,049 --> 00:17:05,369
not about their personality. It was not I

488
00:17:05,369 --> 00:17:08,245
mean, the guy circles was, oh, how far

489
00:17:08,245 --> 00:17:09,765
did you go with her? How far could

490
00:17:09,765 --> 00:17:10,884
you get her? I mean, it's just and

491
00:17:10,884 --> 00:17:12,404
that was kind of the vibe for a

492
00:17:12,404 --> 00:17:14,005
decade. And, you know, and and through those

493
00:17:14,005 --> 00:17:15,924
years, you don't matter. I don't have a

494
00:17:15,924 --> 00:17:17,924
career. I don't you know, you know, it's

495
00:17:17,924 --> 00:17:20,345
it's tough being in that kind of adolescent

496
00:17:20,369 --> 00:17:22,289
stage because, like, you don't matter, and you

497
00:17:22,289 --> 00:17:24,210
don't really have a lot of leverage to

498
00:17:24,210 --> 00:17:26,289
show that you matter because you're kinda just

499
00:17:26,289 --> 00:17:29,730
in school being average. And so a huge

500
00:17:29,730 --> 00:17:31,809
thing that guys do is this. It's a

501
00:17:31,809 --> 00:17:32,630
lot of objectification.

502
00:17:33,009 --> 00:17:35,255
There's a lot of porn consumption. There's a

503
00:17:35,255 --> 00:17:35,994
lot of,

504
00:17:36,454 --> 00:17:36,954
of

505
00:17:37,335 --> 00:17:40,054
talking about women like they are trophies to

506
00:17:40,054 --> 00:17:42,375
be conquered. And, the guy who can collect

507
00:17:42,375 --> 00:17:44,474
the most trophies is the is the winner.

508
00:17:44,694 --> 00:17:45,174
And,

509
00:17:45,974 --> 00:17:47,575
you know, so I think it's it's really

510
00:17:47,575 --> 00:17:48,954
tough with this because,

511
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:52,460
to deny that is is just false. That's

512
00:17:52,460 --> 00:17:54,299
just, you know, maybe you had some wholesome

513
00:17:54,299 --> 00:17:56,059
friends that you hung around with. I certainly

514
00:17:56,059 --> 00:17:56,539
didn't.

515
00:17:57,019 --> 00:17:59,019
And, again, it's not just friends. It's it's

516
00:17:59,019 --> 00:18:01,740
television. I mean, the movie Superbad is a

517
00:18:02,220 --> 00:18:04,539
was a movie that did multiples of millions

518
00:18:04,539 --> 00:18:06,005
in the box office. It's about two high

519
00:18:06,005 --> 00:18:07,605
school kids trying to get laid. And that's

520
00:18:07,605 --> 00:18:09,284
not, the first time. I mean, that's, you

521
00:18:09,284 --> 00:18:10,845
know, through the eighties, there was tons of,

522
00:18:10,845 --> 00:18:11,944
you know, Ferris Bueller.

523
00:18:12,565 --> 00:18:14,005
You know, there's just there's just a lot

524
00:18:14,005 --> 00:18:14,505
of,

525
00:18:15,125 --> 00:18:16,424
there's just culturally

526
00:18:16,724 --> 00:18:18,484
young men want to get laid, and it's

527
00:18:18,484 --> 00:18:19,204
just not,

528
00:18:20,220 --> 00:18:21,740
it's never been kind of spoken as a

529
00:18:21,740 --> 00:18:23,660
bad thing. It's kind of been culturally accepted.

530
00:18:23,660 --> 00:18:25,839
So I think, you know, as a guy,

531
00:18:26,299 --> 00:18:28,240
part of this is really tough because

532
00:18:28,859 --> 00:18:30,539
we start to in recovery, we start to

533
00:18:30,539 --> 00:18:31,039
recognize

534
00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:34,484
how harmful this is, how how how this

535
00:18:34,484 --> 00:18:35,984
has taken away from

536
00:18:36,444 --> 00:18:38,365
what our marriage could have been, how this

537
00:18:38,365 --> 00:18:40,765
has robbed us of sexual energy and having

538
00:18:40,765 --> 00:18:43,244
this incredibly leaking container. So I don't think

539
00:18:43,244 --> 00:18:44,365
any of us I think once we get

540
00:18:44,365 --> 00:18:46,539
into good recovery, we start to realize, ugh,

541
00:18:46,539 --> 00:18:48,460
this this isn't doing anybody any favors.

542
00:18:48,779 --> 00:18:51,039
This is creating a harmful environment. My daughter's

543
00:18:51,099 --> 00:18:53,660
six. Right? So the more men who participate

544
00:18:53,660 --> 00:18:55,500
in this, this isn't these these aren't the

545
00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:56,779
men I want her to be around. This

546
00:18:56,779 --> 00:18:58,059
isn't the world I want her to grow

547
00:18:58,059 --> 00:18:59,740
up in. So I think we recognize the

548
00:18:59,740 --> 00:19:01,484
challenge. But it but it I think it's

549
00:19:01,484 --> 00:19:04,305
tough because participating for so long

550
00:19:05,005 --> 00:19:07,005
and not really seeing it as a, a

551
00:19:07,005 --> 00:19:09,664
bad thing, it puts us in this difficult

552
00:19:09,724 --> 00:19:11,884
position when we're talking to our partners because

553
00:19:11,884 --> 00:19:13,809
it's like, you know, on one hand, this

554
00:19:13,809 --> 00:19:15,649
is what guys do. And I'm not gonna

555
00:19:15,649 --> 00:19:17,889
deny that because this is what guys have

556
00:19:17,889 --> 00:19:19,569
done for a long time. But at the

557
00:19:19,569 --> 00:19:20,309
same time,

558
00:19:20,609 --> 00:19:22,130
what do we do now? It's like it's

559
00:19:22,130 --> 00:19:23,889
this it's this like, hey. I wanna be

560
00:19:23,889 --> 00:19:27,490
better, but we have this long resume indicating

561
00:19:27,490 --> 00:19:30,464
that we weren't better. I mean, it it's

562
00:19:30,464 --> 00:19:32,304
just this crappy position to be in, Michelle,

563
00:19:32,304 --> 00:19:35,125
because it's like, I get her point of

564
00:19:35,184 --> 00:19:36,544
why she feel like she feel like she

565
00:19:36,544 --> 00:19:38,944
has mountains of evidence to say that I'm

566
00:19:38,944 --> 00:19:40,740
not safe to be with. But at the

567
00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:42,820
same time, like, I I I don't wanna

568
00:19:42,820 --> 00:19:44,660
be that guy. I don't like how our

569
00:19:44,660 --> 00:19:46,820
culture is. I don't like the way this

570
00:19:46,820 --> 00:19:48,579
is headed, and it's honestly getting worse and

571
00:19:48,579 --> 00:19:49,940
worse and worse by the day. I don't

572
00:19:49,940 --> 00:19:51,000
see it getting better.

573
00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:53,875
How what do I say now? You know,

574
00:19:53,875 --> 00:19:55,394
it it puts me in this really difficult

575
00:19:55,394 --> 00:19:57,875
position of I'm fighting the fight every day.

576
00:19:57,875 --> 00:19:59,875
I don't wanna be that way. But at

577
00:19:59,875 --> 00:20:01,634
the same time, it'd be a lie to

578
00:20:01,634 --> 00:20:03,474
say that I don't have a billion brain

579
00:20:03,474 --> 00:20:04,934
cells that are still

580
00:20:05,234 --> 00:20:08,279
wired like that, that I'm trying to to

581
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:09,799
to, you know, unwire.

582
00:20:10,660 --> 00:20:12,180
But at the same and she has this

583
00:20:12,180 --> 00:20:14,500
mountain of evidence to to suggest that I'm

584
00:20:14,740 --> 00:20:16,180
I am kinda one of those guys. So

585
00:20:16,180 --> 00:20:18,119
it puts me in this difficult position of

586
00:20:18,180 --> 00:20:19,539
sometimes I just don't know what to say

587
00:20:19,539 --> 00:20:20,119
to her.

588
00:20:21,299 --> 00:20:22,839
Well, that's very valid

589
00:20:23,535 --> 00:20:25,394
because male sexual entitlement

590
00:20:25,695 --> 00:20:28,355
is cultural. It's religious. It is

591
00:20:28,975 --> 00:20:31,695
family of origin. Like, there's so many factors

592
00:20:31,695 --> 00:20:34,195
that plant it. You talked about your friends,

593
00:20:34,494 --> 00:20:35,475
locker room.

594
00:20:35,809 --> 00:20:38,369
There's some statements of, oh, boys will be

595
00:20:38,369 --> 00:20:40,869
boys. There's a lot of excusing, justifying.

596
00:20:42,210 --> 00:20:43,730
And then I mean, I can't tell you.

597
00:20:43,730 --> 00:20:45,569
I mean, parents, I've heard of catching their

598
00:20:45,569 --> 00:20:47,809
15 year old boy watching porn and not

599
00:20:47,809 --> 00:20:49,890
really doing anything about it. Right? Just kind

600
00:20:49,890 --> 00:20:52,005
of, like, closing the door and just never

601
00:20:52,005 --> 00:20:54,404
really talking about it again. Right? And, again,

602
00:20:54,404 --> 00:20:56,085
it's just I think that kind of pours

603
00:20:56,085 --> 00:20:57,704
gas on the fire. Does it not?

604
00:20:58,164 --> 00:21:00,085
I would agree. I would agree because there

605
00:21:00,085 --> 00:21:00,825
is talk

606
00:21:01,125 --> 00:21:02,904
that is healthy around sexuality

607
00:21:03,684 --> 00:21:04,184
because

608
00:21:04,565 --> 00:21:05,065
teenagers,

609
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:06,500
prepubescent,

610
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,220
have a curiosity around sexuality.

611
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,380
We happen to live in a culture

612
00:21:11,759 --> 00:21:14,019
that either has taboo around sexuality

613
00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:15,779
or it's hypersexual.

614
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,494
There doesn't seem to be this great middle

615
00:21:18,494 --> 00:21:18,994
ground

616
00:21:19,295 --> 00:21:21,075
at the moment which you were speaking

617
00:21:21,615 --> 00:21:23,394
to earlier on a lot of this hypersexuality.

618
00:21:25,134 --> 00:21:25,634
And

619
00:21:26,015 --> 00:21:28,174
so it's not about just closing the door

620
00:21:28,174 --> 00:21:30,734
and just hoping it goes away. It's about

621
00:21:30,734 --> 00:21:31,474
talking about

622
00:21:32,255 --> 00:21:33,234
what is healthy

623
00:21:34,039 --> 00:21:35,099
and what does

624
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:35,980
porn

625
00:21:36,279 --> 00:21:39,400
do for this kiddo that's watching it. And

626
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,420
also learning about the neurobiology

627
00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:43,099
that happens in men,

628
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:44,220
the changes

629
00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:47,740
neurologically that happen from watching this and the

630
00:21:48,434 --> 00:21:50,115
things that get in the way of actual

631
00:21:50,115 --> 00:21:51,975
intimacy from watching it. There's

632
00:21:52,515 --> 00:21:55,315
a couple consenting together to watch is not

633
00:21:55,315 --> 00:21:58,275
problematic. It's the secrecy, it's this all these

634
00:21:58,275 --> 00:22:00,934
other things that changes neurobiology, it changes

635
00:22:01,315 --> 00:22:01,815
neurochemistry.

636
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,039
And so, yeah. How does how does a

637
00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:07,259
a wife believe?

638
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,180
Like, yeah, I'm

639
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:11,500
great now. Better.

640
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:13,099
Yeah. Yeah.

641
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:14,460
Whatever that is.

642
00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:17,019
And I I come back to,

643
00:22:17,684 --> 00:22:20,644
we know. We we sense. We know. We

644
00:22:20,644 --> 00:22:22,484
know when you're authentic. We know when you're

645
00:22:22,484 --> 00:22:24,804
limiting your authenticity and in your in your

646
00:22:24,804 --> 00:22:27,284
integrity, and we know when it's slipping. So

647
00:22:27,284 --> 00:22:28,724
I'd love for you to I'd love for

648
00:22:28,724 --> 00:22:30,244
you to speak to this because I've chosen

649
00:22:30,869 --> 00:22:32,470
and I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't have

650
00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:35,450
done this, but I've I've chosen a brutally

651
00:22:35,509 --> 00:22:37,769
honest approach with my wife, and,

652
00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:39,750
I don't know. I feel like sometimes I'd

653
00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:41,750
be better off lying. What what I mean

654
00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:42,650
by that is,

655
00:22:43,349 --> 00:22:45,349
you know, I I I I'm very honest

656
00:22:45,349 --> 00:22:46,329
with her about,

657
00:22:46,924 --> 00:22:48,845
how the struggle is real. I just I

658
00:22:48,845 --> 00:22:51,085
I, you know, I often hear some of

659
00:22:51,085 --> 00:22:53,164
these guys who talk about how cured they

660
00:22:53,164 --> 00:22:54,704
are, and I'm like, bro,

661
00:22:55,085 --> 00:22:56,765
I grew up in the same world you

662
00:22:56,765 --> 00:22:58,380
grew up in. I, like,

663
00:22:58,940 --> 00:23:00,380
you know, you know, I don't wanna take

664
00:23:00,380 --> 00:23:02,619
anything away from him. Maybe he is cleansed

665
00:23:02,619 --> 00:23:03,359
or whatever.

666
00:23:03,819 --> 00:23:05,740
But, I mean, I, you know, I've chosen

667
00:23:05,740 --> 00:23:07,339
a different approach. I've told her, you know,

668
00:23:07,339 --> 00:23:09,259
I I I don't know if I'm going

669
00:23:09,259 --> 00:23:10,779
to be able to undo a lot of

670
00:23:10,779 --> 00:23:13,264
this. I just, you know, after a decade

671
00:23:13,404 --> 00:23:13,904
of,

672
00:23:15,004 --> 00:23:15,504
building,

673
00:23:15,964 --> 00:23:18,684
you know, women's attention and the value of

674
00:23:18,684 --> 00:23:21,244
of being with them sexually and what that

675
00:23:21,244 --> 00:23:23,184
could do for me, you know, decades

676
00:23:23,565 --> 00:23:25,585
of putting that up on this massive pedestal

677
00:23:25,644 --> 00:23:27,700
and assigning so much value to it. And

678
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:30,180
then all of a sudden now having to

679
00:23:30,180 --> 00:23:32,019
just stop like it's a light switch. You

680
00:23:32,019 --> 00:23:34,019
know, I've I've chosen this brutally honest approach

681
00:23:34,019 --> 00:23:36,019
of telling her, like, the struggle is real.

682
00:23:36,019 --> 00:23:37,619
I mean, it's a it's a you know,

683
00:23:37,619 --> 00:23:38,359
my first

684
00:23:38,820 --> 00:23:40,119
instinct is not

685
00:23:41,054 --> 00:23:43,214
a recovered one. I I wish it was.

686
00:23:43,214 --> 00:23:46,255
It's just not. Now I've done enough to

687
00:23:46,255 --> 00:23:48,174
protect myself from that and have that not

688
00:23:48,174 --> 00:23:50,734
turn any into anything of harm. But I'd

689
00:23:50,815 --> 00:23:52,494
it'd be I'd be a liar if I

690
00:23:52,494 --> 00:23:54,970
told you that my thoughts are pure.

691
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:57,210
They are not. I I

692
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:59,130
I I'm brainwashed

693
00:23:59,670 --> 00:24:02,390
by all of the brainwashing, especially amongst successful

694
00:24:02,390 --> 00:24:04,009
male culture. There is this

695
00:24:04,869 --> 00:24:07,029
there is, you know, amongst successful men, there

696
00:24:07,029 --> 00:24:08,075
is certainly

697
00:24:08,534 --> 00:24:11,335
a element of if you are really that

698
00:24:11,335 --> 00:24:13,494
big of a big shot, you should be

699
00:24:13,494 --> 00:24:16,294
being lusted after constantly. And so there's this,

700
00:24:16,294 --> 00:24:18,454
like, I wanna let it go for my

701
00:24:18,454 --> 00:24:20,214
recovery sake and my wife, but then there's

702
00:24:20,214 --> 00:24:21,034
this cultural

703
00:24:21,335 --> 00:24:24,049
pressure of, like, wait, you're gonna let go

704
00:24:24,049 --> 00:24:26,289
of being lost after? That's that that goes

705
00:24:26,289 --> 00:24:28,289
against that that's that's not what we that's

706
00:24:28,289 --> 00:24:29,890
not what guys like us do. I mean,

707
00:24:29,890 --> 00:24:30,950
we we continuously

708
00:24:31,410 --> 00:24:33,970
enhance our appearance, enhance our net worth, enhance

709
00:24:33,970 --> 00:24:37,005
our portfolio, enhance our positions. You know, it's,

710
00:24:37,085 --> 00:24:38,605
you know, we a lot of a lot

711
00:24:38,605 --> 00:24:40,845
of our successful male culture is measured by

712
00:24:40,845 --> 00:24:43,085
how many women want you, how many men

713
00:24:43,085 --> 00:24:44,845
wanna be you. And so to, like, kind

714
00:24:44,845 --> 00:24:45,505
of unsubscribe,

715
00:24:46,684 --> 00:24:49,244
it's tough. I've just I've spent so much

716
00:24:49,244 --> 00:24:51,744
of my life being trying to be desired

717
00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:53,119
by everyone

718
00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:53,900
that,

719
00:24:54,299 --> 00:24:55,820
you know, to have it be this light

720
00:24:55,820 --> 00:24:57,740
switch, it's I mean, Michelle, I gotta be

721
00:24:57,740 --> 00:24:59,259
honest with you. It's not. So I just

722
00:24:59,259 --> 00:25:00,859
wanna speak to that because it's

723
00:25:01,420 --> 00:25:03,420
I don't know. I mean, it's it's honest,

724
00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:04,859
but at the same time, it's not what

725
00:25:04,859 --> 00:25:05,839
she wants to hear.

726
00:25:06,445 --> 00:25:08,045
No. It wouldn't be what she wants to

727
00:25:08,045 --> 00:25:09,505
hear. Absolutely not.

728
00:25:10,845 --> 00:25:13,904
And the struggle of tying ego to performance

729
00:25:14,605 --> 00:25:16,365
is across the board, what I hear you

730
00:25:16,365 --> 00:25:19,589
talking about. Whether it's what how many women

731
00:25:19,649 --> 00:25:21,750
are finding you great, how many other men

732
00:25:21,970 --> 00:25:24,049
are envying you or wanting to be you

733
00:25:24,049 --> 00:25:26,289
or finding you great. Is it your portfolio?

734
00:25:26,289 --> 00:25:27,490
Is it this, is it this, is it

735
00:25:27,490 --> 00:25:29,990
this? All this ego tied

736
00:25:30,849 --> 00:25:34,005
around performance. What am I doing that's creating

737
00:25:34,005 --> 00:25:36,105
that I'm now gaining instead of

738
00:25:36,404 --> 00:25:38,805
it being an inside job? It's an outside

739
00:25:38,805 --> 00:25:41,445
job that measures my inside job. And so

740
00:25:41,445 --> 00:25:44,744
it's not a switch. It's a slow rewiring.

741
00:25:44,884 --> 00:25:45,625
It's like

742
00:25:46,279 --> 00:25:48,700
digging the trench with, like, a teaspoon.

743
00:25:49,159 --> 00:25:51,319
You're digging the trench. Right? When you look

744
00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:54,440
at the APA, the definition of prosthetician recovery

745
00:25:54,679 --> 00:25:56,119
I know women don't wanna hear this, but

746
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,724
the definition in the APA is a slow

747
00:25:58,724 --> 00:26:00,424
steady reduction in,

748
00:26:00,805 --> 00:26:03,125
duration and frequency. And I know no one

749
00:26:03,125 --> 00:26:04,484
wants to hear that. They want it to

750
00:26:04,484 --> 00:26:06,244
be a light switch. We want the guy

751
00:26:06,244 --> 00:26:09,045
to go to his three week inpatient treatment

752
00:26:09,045 --> 00:26:11,880
and come out. I'm just, I'm sorry. The

753
00:26:12,820 --> 00:26:14,119
we we this problem's

754
00:26:14,420 --> 00:26:16,820
far this is not a substance addiction. He's

755
00:26:16,820 --> 00:26:19,079
not gonna go detox, go through withdrawals,

756
00:26:19,539 --> 00:26:21,859
and come out a cured man. I mean,

757
00:26:21,859 --> 00:26:23,960
we're talking about processes, thought processes,

758
00:26:24,404 --> 00:26:27,285
ones that are not going to stop being

759
00:26:27,285 --> 00:26:29,125
reinforced when he gets out. I think, you

760
00:26:29,125 --> 00:26:29,625
know,

761
00:26:30,085 --> 00:26:30,585
performance

762
00:26:30,965 --> 00:26:33,045
is only I mean, you pick up your

763
00:26:33,045 --> 00:26:34,884
phone. I mean, having social media on your

764
00:26:34,884 --> 00:26:35,384
phone

765
00:26:35,765 --> 00:26:37,525
as a process addict, get rid of that

766
00:26:37,525 --> 00:26:39,160
crap. I mean, it is just all you're

767
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,240
gonna see on there is constant reminders of

768
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,240
how inadequate you are and what you need

769
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,400
to get and become to be admired. It's

770
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,500
just that's what social media has turned into

771
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,960
is how do you how do you become

772
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,640
the man that you've always wanted to become?

773
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,019
And it's always through

774
00:26:53,714 --> 00:26:56,515
egoic these egoic transformations. Right?

775
00:26:56,914 --> 00:26:58,214
But I I think that's

776
00:26:58,595 --> 00:26:59,815
you know, I'm I'm just

777
00:27:00,194 --> 00:27:01,794
I I don't know why I'm bringing this

778
00:27:01,794 --> 00:27:04,434
up. I I I'm sensitive because I know

779
00:27:04,434 --> 00:27:06,194
it's offensive and off putting to a lot

780
00:27:06,194 --> 00:27:07,875
of women because it sounds like I'm kind

781
00:27:07,875 --> 00:27:08,339
of

782
00:27:08,740 --> 00:27:10,980
sticking up for and defending men. That's not

783
00:27:10,980 --> 00:27:12,500
my intent. What I'm what I'm trying to

784
00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:13,640
do here is almost,

785
00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:16,339
dare I say, just have a little bit

786
00:27:16,339 --> 00:27:18,279
of empathy for the

787
00:27:18,579 --> 00:27:21,140
what's being fed to these young men for

788
00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:23,700
basically two decades before they married you. I

789
00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:24,200
just,

790
00:27:24,845 --> 00:27:27,484
you know, they're they're being fed a lot

791
00:27:27,484 --> 00:27:29,984
of you're nothing unless you're this.

792
00:27:30,365 --> 00:27:32,684
And, and that's a toxic that's a very

793
00:27:32,684 --> 00:27:34,924
toxic message. And I think the reason I

794
00:27:34,924 --> 00:27:37,005
bring that up is I know women have

795
00:27:37,005 --> 00:27:39,329
a very similar message. It's different, but they

796
00:27:39,329 --> 00:27:41,650
have a very similar message. You know, men

797
00:27:41,650 --> 00:27:44,309
men, our message is get money, get women.

798
00:27:44,609 --> 00:27:45,329
And so,

799
00:27:45,730 --> 00:27:47,490
just like you guys are supposed to be

800
00:27:47,490 --> 00:27:50,690
be super mom, super wife, super pretty, super

801
00:27:50,690 --> 00:27:51,190
fit,

802
00:27:51,965 --> 00:27:54,285
and have this perfect body. You know, that's

803
00:27:54,285 --> 00:27:56,924
your message. We have get money, get women.

804
00:27:56,924 --> 00:27:59,244
And it's it's, you know, so, again, that's

805
00:27:59,244 --> 00:28:00,605
just kinda beat into our head. So I'm

806
00:28:00,605 --> 00:28:02,445
not I'm not excusing men. That's not what

807
00:28:02,445 --> 00:28:03,884
I'm saying. I'm just I'm I I would

808
00:28:03,884 --> 00:28:05,325
like I think we just it deserves a

809
00:28:05,325 --> 00:28:07,440
little bit more attention that I don't know

810
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,460
how much these men are,

811
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,339
how how am I trying to say it?

812
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,440
We're so disgusted by what they've done and

813
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,519
surprised by what they've done. I'm not shocked

814
00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:19,759
at all. After pumping this into these guys'

815
00:28:19,759 --> 00:28:22,404
heads for twenty years, you're shocked at how

816
00:28:22,404 --> 00:28:24,565
they're acting? I'm not shocked at all. I

817
00:28:24,565 --> 00:28:25,845
I think we've done should have done a

818
00:28:25,845 --> 00:28:27,305
better job of policing,

819
00:28:28,005 --> 00:28:29,605
what happened to them, how they were talked

820
00:28:29,605 --> 00:28:31,365
to, how they how they were treated in

821
00:28:31,365 --> 00:28:32,105
in my opinion.

822
00:28:33,045 --> 00:28:34,884
Well, I would agree. But then we've gotta

823
00:28:34,884 --> 00:28:36,424
look back at how many generations

824
00:28:36,980 --> 00:28:37,480
Correct.

825
00:28:37,779 --> 00:28:40,019
Have been raised and what's come down through

826
00:28:40,019 --> 00:28:40,519
the

827
00:28:41,779 --> 00:28:43,400
six, seven, eight generations

828
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:44,200
historically.

829
00:28:44,660 --> 00:28:47,000
It's no shock we are where we're at.

830
00:28:47,140 --> 00:28:49,140
Well, the bible talks about this problem, so

831
00:28:49,140 --> 00:28:50,660
it's it's clearly not new. I mean, men

832
00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:52,019
have had a hard time keeping in their

833
00:28:52,019 --> 00:28:54,855
pants for thousands of years. So this this

834
00:28:54,855 --> 00:28:56,534
is not a this isn't the first time

835
00:28:56,534 --> 00:28:58,474
that this is that this has arose. Right?

836
00:28:59,014 --> 00:29:01,815
It it it's not. And the level of

837
00:29:01,815 --> 00:29:04,134
passing on emotional intelligence to men is not

838
00:29:04,134 --> 00:29:07,349
a thing. Correct. Men fall boys fall down,

839
00:29:07,569 --> 00:29:09,569
suck it up, brush it off, you're fine.

840
00:29:09,569 --> 00:29:11,569
Girl falls down, oh, sweetie, are you okay?

841
00:29:11,569 --> 00:29:12,710
Does your knee hurt?

842
00:29:13,089 --> 00:29:13,589
Mhmm.

843
00:29:14,289 --> 00:29:16,150
I'm sorry. If they're both five,

844
00:29:17,410 --> 00:29:19,250
it is this it's the same treatment. Is

845
00:29:19,329 --> 00:29:21,434
are you okay? Is your knee hurt? Do

846
00:29:21,434 --> 00:29:22,974
you are you sad?

847
00:29:23,515 --> 00:29:25,294
Naming the emotions is not named

848
00:29:25,595 --> 00:29:27,434
for young boys growing up. And I do

849
00:29:27,434 --> 00:29:29,194
have a lot of compassion. I also had

850
00:29:29,274 --> 00:29:31,355
I also helped raise two boys. I had

851
00:29:31,355 --> 00:29:32,654
three girls and two boys.

852
00:29:33,115 --> 00:29:35,434
And it was such a balance of this

853
00:29:35,434 --> 00:29:36,414
culture of

854
00:29:37,009 --> 00:29:38,929
girls wanna wear what they wanna wear and

855
00:29:38,929 --> 00:29:40,690
they're like, then don't look at me if

856
00:29:40,690 --> 00:29:43,009
you can't look at me without this thing

857
00:29:43,009 --> 00:29:45,190
happening for you. And then I'm raising

858
00:29:45,649 --> 00:29:48,130
young men of, you know, how do you

859
00:29:48,130 --> 00:29:51,295
appreciate the beauty of a woman without objectifying

860
00:29:51,755 --> 00:29:53,595
her as an object that you think is

861
00:29:53,595 --> 00:29:55,835
yours to do with what you want. Mhmm.

862
00:29:55,835 --> 00:29:57,275
And that's what we're and that's I hope

863
00:29:57,275 --> 00:29:58,875
everybody's hearing what Michelle and I are saying.

864
00:29:58,875 --> 00:30:01,035
What we're saying we're not making excuses. What

865
00:30:01,035 --> 00:30:03,595
we're saying is there's been a long history

866
00:30:03,595 --> 00:30:05,694
of this stuff being done

867
00:30:06,059 --> 00:30:09,019
poorly, and it has harmed our world. It's

868
00:30:09,019 --> 00:30:10,799
harmed our psyche. It's harmed the,

869
00:30:11,579 --> 00:30:13,659
ability for monogamy to be honored at the

870
00:30:13,659 --> 00:30:15,339
level that we wanna honor it. And so,

871
00:30:15,339 --> 00:30:17,259
again, we're not making excuses. What we're just

872
00:30:17,259 --> 00:30:18,789
saying is all of this is part of

873
00:30:18,789 --> 00:30:20,454
recovery. This is trauma, you know.

874
00:30:21,174 --> 00:30:23,894
Trauma doesn't have to be abuse, physical abuse,

875
00:30:23,894 --> 00:30:26,615
sexual abuse, verbal abuse. Trauma in my definition

876
00:30:26,615 --> 00:30:29,335
is anything that alters the natural course of

877
00:30:29,335 --> 00:30:30,714
who you would have become

878
00:30:31,015 --> 00:30:32,234
had you not learned

879
00:30:32,590 --> 00:30:34,670
the thing that you learned. And part of

880
00:30:34,670 --> 00:30:36,850
this traumatic experience for men is

881
00:30:37,549 --> 00:30:40,110
you're not enough if if if all the

882
00:30:40,110 --> 00:30:41,869
women in the school don't wanna sleep with

883
00:30:41,869 --> 00:30:44,190
you, then that you're you're just you're you're

884
00:30:44,190 --> 00:30:46,830
below average. You're unwanted. You're you're you're less

885
00:30:46,830 --> 00:30:48,875
significant. And and that is kind of the

886
00:30:48,875 --> 00:30:49,855
message that, you

887
00:30:50,315 --> 00:30:52,634
know, you're more valuable. The more the more

888
00:30:52,634 --> 00:30:54,315
the more the girls in school like you,

889
00:30:54,315 --> 00:30:56,075
the more valuable of a man you must

890
00:30:56,075 --> 00:30:58,714
be. And and it's that that's trauma. It's

891
00:30:58,714 --> 00:31:00,634
trauma because now what did I do for

892
00:31:00,634 --> 00:31:02,599
the second that I could not because middle

893
00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:03,880
school was hard for me. I all the

894
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,059
girls I wanted did not want me back.

895
00:31:06,119 --> 00:31:08,039
And it was very traumatic for me. They

896
00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:09,980
went off and got with these more athletic

897
00:31:10,039 --> 00:31:12,599
guys from wealthier families. So do you think

898
00:31:12,599 --> 00:31:14,440
it was a mystery why I became obsessed

899
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,605
with enhancing my physical appearance and enhancing my

900
00:31:17,605 --> 00:31:20,085
bank account? No. Because every guy kept getting

901
00:31:20,085 --> 00:31:22,085
all the women that I wanted were from

902
00:31:22,085 --> 00:31:24,724
rich families, and they were extremely athletic and

903
00:31:24,724 --> 00:31:26,804
buff, and I was not. And so why

904
00:31:26,804 --> 00:31:29,365
did I become wealthy and buff? Because I

905
00:31:29,365 --> 00:31:31,419
wanted women to want me, because I hated

906
00:31:31,419 --> 00:31:34,339
the feeling of feeling unwanted. That's trauma. It's

907
00:31:34,339 --> 00:31:37,559
the small life experiences of being chosen second

908
00:31:37,779 --> 00:31:39,940
that turned me into the monster I became.

909
00:31:39,940 --> 00:31:41,700
And, you know, that's really what we're talking

910
00:31:41,700 --> 00:31:43,605
about here. It's not excuses. It's just,

911
00:31:44,164 --> 00:31:46,404
to me, you're not in good recovery if

912
00:31:46,404 --> 00:31:49,365
you're not really policing these brain processes that

913
00:31:49,365 --> 00:31:51,285
drove you to making these decisions. Any any

914
00:31:51,285 --> 00:31:53,684
last words before we go on to how

915
00:31:53,684 --> 00:31:55,144
couples can have this conversation,

916
00:31:56,164 --> 00:31:56,664
together?

917
00:31:57,839 --> 00:31:59,839
I think you named it really well, and

918
00:31:59,839 --> 00:32:01,920
I think the key that you talked about

919
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,099
is getting to know it to really

920
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:07,619
you say, please, I say, become really intimately

921
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:08,660
knowledgeable

922
00:32:09,039 --> 00:32:10,234
around this process.

923
00:32:10,615 --> 00:32:11,994
Becoming best friends

924
00:32:12,295 --> 00:32:14,234
with that level of

925
00:32:15,174 --> 00:32:17,575
the thing that takes you off track, becoming

926
00:32:17,575 --> 00:32:18,315
so intimately

927
00:32:19,174 --> 00:32:21,255
close to it that the minute it starts

928
00:32:21,255 --> 00:32:22,470
to breathe, you're like,

929
00:32:23,349 --> 00:32:25,589
I see you. I see you. Not to,

930
00:32:25,589 --> 00:32:27,849
like, bash it, but to offer it like,

931
00:32:27,990 --> 00:32:29,769
yeah. Okay. I see you and.

932
00:32:30,150 --> 00:32:31,130
Mhmm. The big

933
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:33,109
You bring you bring something up that you

934
00:32:33,109 --> 00:32:34,630
and I were talking about before we started

935
00:32:34,630 --> 00:32:36,470
recording, which I want to focus on. I

936
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:39,224
think the problem with calling it sex addiction,

937
00:32:39,224 --> 00:32:39,964
porn addiction,

938
00:32:40,424 --> 00:32:42,445
making lust the demon is,

939
00:32:43,065 --> 00:32:46,025
we're zoomed way too in. We're we're we're

940
00:32:46,025 --> 00:32:48,105
we're we're we're zooming in on the very,

941
00:32:48,105 --> 00:32:50,904
very, very final decision that happens to be

942
00:32:50,904 --> 00:32:51,404
sexual.

943
00:32:51,970 --> 00:32:55,169
To me, that's sobriety stuff. Like, recovery is

944
00:32:55,169 --> 00:32:57,970
zooming way out at, why did I find

945
00:32:57,970 --> 00:33:00,210
that valuable in the first place? What what

946
00:33:00,210 --> 00:33:02,849
about my thought process made me think that

947
00:33:02,849 --> 00:33:05,490
sleeping with this woman six times was gonna

948
00:33:05,490 --> 00:33:08,525
enhance my life? Like, that's recovery, and and

949
00:33:08,525 --> 00:33:10,765
it's not you know, it is. It's it's

950
00:33:10,765 --> 00:33:12,445
going back. And again, you know, a lot

951
00:33:12,445 --> 00:33:13,805
of guys, you know, they're they're tired of

952
00:33:13,805 --> 00:33:15,884
talking about their childhood trauma. But again, guys,

953
00:33:15,884 --> 00:33:17,724
I'm not talking about childhood trauma. I'm talking

954
00:33:17,724 --> 00:33:20,285
about that one girl in seventh grade who

955
00:33:20,285 --> 00:33:22,230
chose that guy over you. I know it

956
00:33:22,230 --> 00:33:23,450
seemed like an insignificant

957
00:33:23,750 --> 00:33:27,109
event, but it wasn't. You drew conclusions about

958
00:33:27,109 --> 00:33:29,750
yourself and the world that day, and that

959
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:31,430
has the potential to mess your life up.

960
00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:33,109
And and and it did. Those those two

961
00:33:33,109 --> 00:33:36,230
little those two gals picking those guys over

962
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:36,555
me

963
00:33:37,674 --> 00:33:39,674
really did a number on my life. And,

964
00:33:39,994 --> 00:33:41,595
so I think, you know, what I would

965
00:33:41,595 --> 00:33:43,994
say to guys in recovery is make sure

966
00:33:43,994 --> 00:33:44,815
you're demonizing

967
00:33:45,195 --> 00:33:48,315
the right problem. I think too often within

968
00:33:48,315 --> 00:33:50,735
this field, we we're demonizing the sexual

969
00:33:51,070 --> 00:33:52,509
behaviors. And I think that's why guys are

970
00:33:52,509 --> 00:33:54,750
relapsing all the time is, again, you're too

971
00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:56,430
zoomed in. I think I think we really

972
00:33:56,430 --> 00:33:57,650
have to come back to,

973
00:33:58,590 --> 00:34:01,070
where is this narrative coming from? Where is

974
00:34:01,070 --> 00:34:03,070
this thought process coming from that's driving the

975
00:34:03,070 --> 00:34:03,570
behaviors?

976
00:34:04,029 --> 00:34:05,230
You know, one of the things that turns

977
00:34:05,230 --> 00:34:06,369
me off a lot about,

978
00:34:06,934 --> 00:34:09,574
SAA in particular is this, you know, lust.

979
00:34:09,574 --> 00:34:12,375
Oh, I'm I'm I'm powerless over lust. I'm

980
00:34:12,375 --> 00:34:14,135
I'm a lust this. I think the challenge

981
00:34:14,135 --> 00:34:15,655
with that is it makes you feel like

982
00:34:15,655 --> 00:34:17,735
an addict forever because every time that you

983
00:34:17,735 --> 00:34:18,474
find yourself

984
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,840
objectifying someone or even being healthily attracted to

985
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,719
someone, there's this there's this shame that comes

986
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,159
along with it. And, again, I think we

987
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:27,139
just need to be

988
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:28,500
we need to be careful

989
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,119
being shamed about what. Right? You know, I

990
00:34:31,119 --> 00:34:32,960
I I or or or feeling guilty about

991
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,815
what. I think I think zooming in way

992
00:34:34,815 --> 00:34:36,894
too much or feeling guilty about the wrong

993
00:34:36,894 --> 00:34:39,155
stuff. What I wanna feel guilty about is

994
00:34:40,494 --> 00:34:40,994
enhancing

995
00:34:41,295 --> 00:34:42,114
my value

996
00:34:42,414 --> 00:34:46,034
by judging this woman and measuring how valuable

997
00:34:46,094 --> 00:34:48,760
her attention is. That I wanna feel guilty

998
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,079
about. But I think the lust itself, again,

999
00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:52,359
I think that's a distraction. I think we

1000
00:34:52,359 --> 00:34:53,960
need to kinda rewind a little bit and

1001
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,559
look at the thought process that led to

1002
00:34:55,559 --> 00:34:57,480
the lust. Speak to that real quick before

1003
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:58,139
we jump.

1004
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:00,940
Oh, you and I use some different language.

1005
00:35:01,934 --> 00:35:02,894
Sure. You use us. You know, I use

1006
00:35:02,894 --> 00:35:03,394
desire.

1007
00:35:03,695 --> 00:35:05,454
Yeah. Sure. I like that better. I like

1008
00:35:05,454 --> 00:35:06,594
that better. Technology

1009
00:35:06,894 --> 00:35:08,275
aspect because I

1010
00:35:09,055 --> 00:35:10,974
you and I are are aligned on the

1011
00:35:10,974 --> 00:35:13,055
essay model. I'm not big on the essay

1012
00:35:13,055 --> 00:35:14,035
model. I don't

1013
00:35:14,414 --> 00:35:17,250
love when men go the essay model, and

1014
00:35:17,250 --> 00:35:19,809
I know at times that some of the

1015
00:35:19,809 --> 00:35:22,150
few resources available in certain areas.

1016
00:35:22,610 --> 00:35:24,530
I do not like the idea that men

1017
00:35:24,530 --> 00:35:26,849
are covering themselves in a shame message of

1018
00:35:26,849 --> 00:35:27,510
I am

1019
00:35:27,890 --> 00:35:30,150
addict, I am, and I am.

1020
00:35:30,530 --> 00:35:31,430
Shame numbs.

1021
00:35:32,105 --> 00:35:33,164
Shame will keep

1022
00:35:33,625 --> 00:35:36,824
you spinning into the neither regions and and

1023
00:35:36,824 --> 00:35:37,565
to fulfill

1024
00:35:38,184 --> 00:35:39,724
it keeps you stuck in the behavior.

1025
00:35:40,105 --> 00:35:42,905
Keeps you stuck in the psychological behavior cycle

1026
00:35:42,905 --> 00:35:43,405
versus

1027
00:35:44,184 --> 00:35:47,144
guilt is where the feelings are. Guilt moves

1028
00:35:47,144 --> 00:35:50,070
you towards what you want, what it is,

1029
00:35:50,449 --> 00:35:53,090
the emotional aspect. It connects the here to

1030
00:35:53,090 --> 00:35:55,750
the down here. Guilt is actually necessary.

1031
00:35:56,289 --> 00:35:57,889
Mhmm. And it helps you maintain I I

1032
00:35:57,889 --> 00:35:59,170
say it'll keep you that's the only thing.

1033
00:35:59,170 --> 00:36:01,570
It'll keep you sober. I mean, feeling bad

1034
00:36:01,570 --> 00:36:03,835
about doing something, I don't know. And you

1035
00:36:03,835 --> 00:36:05,355
don't need to convert it into shame, but,

1036
00:36:05,355 --> 00:36:06,954
I mean, I like feeling a little guilty

1037
00:36:06,954 --> 00:36:09,355
when I when I'm thinking, you know, harmful

1038
00:36:09,355 --> 00:36:11,035
thoughts. I don't I don't I don't I

1039
00:36:11,035 --> 00:36:12,954
don't take it personally. I just I I

1040
00:36:12,954 --> 00:36:15,195
listen to the guilt, and it usually guides

1041
00:36:15,195 --> 00:36:17,219
me in a, I don't know, healthy direction,

1042
00:36:17,219 --> 00:36:19,380
I think. Yeah. I think that's what guilt

1043
00:36:19,380 --> 00:36:21,079
is intended for. And

1044
00:36:21,860 --> 00:36:24,420
I I heard you speaking to really the

1045
00:36:24,420 --> 00:36:28,119
way you keep yourself in recovery is maintaining

1046
00:36:28,179 --> 00:36:29,320
a level of integrity

1047
00:36:29,619 --> 00:36:30,119
around

1048
00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:31,000
knowing

1049
00:36:31,934 --> 00:36:34,815
what takes you off track and maintaining a

1050
00:36:34,815 --> 00:36:37,474
level of integrity around these behaviors

1051
00:36:38,175 --> 00:36:40,335
instead of just justifying it, which is what

1052
00:36:40,335 --> 00:36:42,894
we've been talking about our society justifying all

1053
00:36:42,894 --> 00:36:43,555
these things.

1054
00:36:43,934 --> 00:36:46,170
So Yeah. This is this is what men

1055
00:36:46,170 --> 00:36:48,170
do. That's what they say. Right? And it's

1056
00:36:48,170 --> 00:36:50,010
not not true. I think that's the other

1057
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:52,489
thing where I empathize with men is this

1058
00:36:52,489 --> 00:36:53,630
is what men do.

1059
00:36:54,170 --> 00:36:55,469
And just remember,

1060
00:36:56,489 --> 00:36:59,130
slavery was normalized. The holocaust was normal. I

1061
00:36:59,130 --> 00:37:01,405
mean, like, just because people around you are

1062
00:37:01,405 --> 00:37:03,885
doing something, doesn't mean it's right. There's endless

1063
00:37:03,885 --> 00:37:04,864
amount of examples

1064
00:37:05,565 --> 00:37:07,105
of humanity kind of backpedaling,

1065
00:37:07,565 --> 00:37:09,484
ashamed of what we've done, how,

1066
00:37:09,804 --> 00:37:11,724
not letting women vote. I mean, we've done

1067
00:37:11,724 --> 00:37:14,764
some crazy things in our lifetime. And so,

1068
00:37:14,844 --> 00:37:16,410
you know, I think I think we got

1069
00:37:16,530 --> 00:37:18,450
I think we underestimate the power of normal.

1070
00:37:18,450 --> 00:37:20,369
Right? Doctor Manwala, it's one of my favorite

1071
00:37:20,369 --> 00:37:22,050
things of what he brought into this field

1072
00:37:22,050 --> 00:37:23,510
was we can't underestimate

1073
00:37:24,450 --> 00:37:26,050
what, you know, the power of what the

1074
00:37:26,050 --> 00:37:28,664
collective had considered normal and what that does

1075
00:37:28,744 --> 00:37:30,824
and and the doors that that opens and

1076
00:37:30,824 --> 00:37:33,304
the guilt that was reduced by that. Right?

1077
00:37:33,304 --> 00:37:35,864
Like, oh, this isn't that bad because every

1078
00:37:35,864 --> 00:37:37,465
other guy at this conference is cheating on

1079
00:37:37,465 --> 00:37:38,445
their wife too.

1080
00:37:38,905 --> 00:37:39,405
Again,

1081
00:37:40,344 --> 00:37:41,565
does that make it okay?

1082
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,559
Couldn't you be the one guy to put

1083
00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:45,319
an end to it, and and and wouldn't

1084
00:37:45,319 --> 00:37:47,019
you make the world a better place?

1085
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,000
You know, when when you say, hey, guys.

1086
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,539
I don't think we should be doing this.

1087
00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:52,039
And then you don't go to the strip

1088
00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:53,099
club, and you guys

1089
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:54,619
go ride a roller coaster

1090
00:37:55,605 --> 00:37:57,765
instead together. Right? Like like, do something wholesome

1091
00:37:57,765 --> 00:37:59,605
where you guys can, like, laugh and be

1092
00:37:59,605 --> 00:38:02,085
boys together rather than, you know, sitting around

1093
00:38:02,085 --> 00:38:04,085
a table throwing money at women. I think,

1094
00:38:04,085 --> 00:38:05,605
you know, to me, I think, you know,

1095
00:38:05,605 --> 00:38:07,829
we underestimate the power of normal. So the

1096
00:38:07,829 --> 00:38:09,269
last stop I go on I wanna speak

1097
00:38:09,269 --> 00:38:11,430
to is the one that everybody is, like,

1098
00:38:11,430 --> 00:38:13,030
dying to listen to. How do I how

1099
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:15,269
do we have a constructive conversation around this?

1100
00:38:15,269 --> 00:38:17,190
Because it is. It's a triggering it's a

1101
00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:19,349
triggering conversation. I'm gonna lean heavily on you

1102
00:38:19,349 --> 00:38:20,250
with this. So

1103
00:38:20,594 --> 00:38:22,914
if I'm wanting to be honest with you,

1104
00:38:22,914 --> 00:38:25,175
and I'm not trying to pretend that, oh,

1105
00:38:25,394 --> 00:38:28,195
other women? I didn't notice. Who? The the

1106
00:38:28,195 --> 00:38:29,635
woman in the pink shorts? I I don't

1107
00:38:29,635 --> 00:38:31,155
know who you're talking about. Like, come on,

1108
00:38:31,155 --> 00:38:33,474
guys. Like, you do know who she's talking.

1109
00:38:33,474 --> 00:38:35,309
You probably do know who she's talking about.

1110
00:38:35,550 --> 00:38:37,550
So if we're gonna be honest with our

1111
00:38:37,550 --> 00:38:38,610
partners around,

1112
00:38:39,390 --> 00:38:41,630
you know, the the real struggle of this

1113
00:38:41,630 --> 00:38:44,030
that, yeah, I did notice her. What do

1114
00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:45,869
we do? What do I what what can

1115
00:38:45,869 --> 00:38:47,329
I say to her to have a constructive

1116
00:38:47,630 --> 00:38:48,130
conversation

1117
00:38:48,430 --> 00:38:48,930
around,

1118
00:38:49,914 --> 00:38:52,335
hey? I am I did notice her and,

1119
00:38:52,714 --> 00:38:55,674
what I I don't think I objectified her.

1120
00:38:55,835 --> 00:38:57,914
I was very aware of the potential for

1121
00:38:57,914 --> 00:38:59,054
that to happen and,

1122
00:38:59,835 --> 00:39:01,514
I, you know, I policed it pretty well.

1123
00:39:01,514 --> 00:39:03,359
And I don't think that any of the

1124
00:39:03,359 --> 00:39:04,980
thoughts that I had were of objectification.

1125
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:07,359
And I I I saw it, and I

1126
00:39:07,359 --> 00:39:09,119
just kinda let her have her workout. And

1127
00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:09,359
I,

1128
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:11,599
you know, did my best to have my

1129
00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:13,934
workout as well. How do we talk about

1130
00:39:13,934 --> 00:39:15,454
how do we talk about this with our

1131
00:39:15,454 --> 00:39:18,015
partners? Because I do think ignoring it's not

1132
00:39:18,015 --> 00:39:20,015
the answer. I'll I'll speak from personal experience.

1133
00:39:20,015 --> 00:39:22,094
I think that that harms trust building. I

1134
00:39:22,094 --> 00:39:23,855
think we do need to have conversations about

1135
00:39:23,855 --> 00:39:26,015
this. I do I think the guy's story

1136
00:39:26,015 --> 00:39:27,855
is, I don't wanna talk about this because

1137
00:39:27,855 --> 00:39:29,250
this will destroy the trust.

1138
00:39:29,889 --> 00:39:31,510
That's not true. That's the opposite.

1139
00:39:32,050 --> 00:39:34,469
Ignoring it is is is where

1140
00:39:34,929 --> 00:39:36,869
the trust is not built. Right? So,

1141
00:39:37,250 --> 00:39:39,010
kinda I I I think you kind of

1142
00:39:39,010 --> 00:39:41,250
leading the conversation is benefit. My my own

1143
00:39:41,250 --> 00:39:42,414
wife has has told me that. I wish

1144
00:39:42,414 --> 00:39:44,174
you would bring this up more often. I

1145
00:39:44,174 --> 00:39:45,775
think it would be more helpful for our

1146
00:39:45,775 --> 00:39:46,755
long term recovery.

1147
00:39:47,295 --> 00:39:48,815
I'm gonna lean heavily on you with this.

1148
00:39:48,815 --> 00:39:51,295
What's a constructive conversation look like when we're

1149
00:39:51,295 --> 00:39:52,194
talking about,

1150
00:39:52,894 --> 00:39:54,434
the diet or sex appeal,

1151
00:39:54,974 --> 00:39:55,474
objectification?

1152
00:39:55,900 --> 00:39:57,900
How how how do we have a conversation

1153
00:39:57,900 --> 00:40:00,860
with this where we're kind of, you know,

1154
00:40:00,860 --> 00:40:02,860
avoiding triggers as much as possible even though

1155
00:40:02,860 --> 00:40:04,719
it is a kind of a triggering topic.

1156
00:40:05,099 --> 00:40:07,179
But having it be something that builds trust

1157
00:40:07,179 --> 00:40:09,255
rather than turning into some sort of conflict.

1158
00:40:10,134 --> 00:40:10,954
Yeah. And

1159
00:40:11,494 --> 00:40:13,815
then this will may this may feel great

1160
00:40:13,815 --> 00:40:15,835
to the listeners because

1161
00:40:17,094 --> 00:40:17,594
there's,

1162
00:40:19,654 --> 00:40:20,875
I do this because

1163
00:40:21,335 --> 00:40:22,670
it's I'm also

1164
00:40:22,969 --> 00:40:25,690
attuning to where you're at when you're speaking

1165
00:40:25,690 --> 00:40:27,609
to me. Are you coming from a place

1166
00:40:27,609 --> 00:40:28,269
of humility?

1167
00:40:28,650 --> 00:40:30,089
Or are you coming from like a one

1168
00:40:30,089 --> 00:40:31,530
off? Like, yeah, I saw it and it's

1169
00:40:31,530 --> 00:40:32,989
no big deal and it's fine.

1170
00:40:34,585 --> 00:40:35,085
Bro,

1171
00:40:35,385 --> 00:40:37,885
it's not fine. Your attitude's not even fine

1172
00:40:38,025 --> 00:40:40,445
because it's not taking any sense of responsibility.

1173
00:40:41,545 --> 00:40:43,965
I'm not hearing any humility. I'm not hearing

1174
00:40:44,025 --> 00:40:44,525
care.

1175
00:40:45,065 --> 00:40:46,445
I'm not hearing that

1176
00:40:47,449 --> 00:40:49,690
I'm not hearing the sense of your heart

1177
00:40:49,690 --> 00:40:51,069
is important to me.

1178
00:40:51,690 --> 00:40:53,609
So, and not that men have to say

1179
00:40:53,609 --> 00:40:56,329
those words because those aren't readily available up

1180
00:40:56,329 --> 00:40:57,869
there. It's a space

1181
00:40:58,250 --> 00:40:59,869
that men can really hold,

1182
00:41:00,305 --> 00:41:02,465
which I encourage them to practice holding first

1183
00:41:02,465 --> 00:41:03,845
before trying to articulate.

1184
00:41:04,305 --> 00:41:06,144
Manner, you're in this space of trying to

1185
00:41:06,144 --> 00:41:07,664
move so many parts. How do I say

1186
00:41:07,664 --> 00:41:08,785
it right? How do I do it right?

1187
00:41:08,785 --> 00:41:10,385
How do I make sure I do it

1188
00:41:10,385 --> 00:41:12,385
right? So then she and I'm like, no.

1189
00:41:12,385 --> 00:41:14,465
No. No. That's like, don't erase that. That's

1190
00:41:14,465 --> 00:41:14,965
checkboxing.

1191
00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:17,480
Mhmm. How can you show up in your

1192
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:18,619
way of being

1193
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,219
with her? I'm like,

1194
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,119
man, I I I believe you noticed that

1195
00:41:24,119 --> 00:41:24,780
I noticed

1196
00:41:25,639 --> 00:41:27,820
the girl in the pink shorts, and

1197
00:41:29,114 --> 00:41:31,434
I I I believe that might have been

1198
00:41:31,434 --> 00:41:33,994
activating for you. Is that accurate? And I

1199
00:41:33,994 --> 00:41:36,235
can say, yeah. Yeah. It was a little

1200
00:41:36,235 --> 00:41:38,815
bit. Yeah. I'm really sorry about that.

1201
00:41:39,675 --> 00:41:41,820
I I want you to know that I

1202
00:41:41,820 --> 00:41:44,619
did look, I did see, and as far

1203
00:41:44,619 --> 00:41:46,640
as my own policing goes,

1204
00:41:46,940 --> 00:41:48,320
I I didn't objectify.

1205
00:41:48,619 --> 00:41:50,700
I stayed in the lanes. I did the

1206
00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:53,500
work that we've talked about and my safety

1207
00:41:53,500 --> 00:41:54,000
plan.

1208
00:41:54,414 --> 00:41:56,094
And so I just want you to know

1209
00:41:56,094 --> 00:41:57,474
I stayed in my integrity.

1210
00:41:58,574 --> 00:42:00,974
Mhmm. And I also wanna take responsibility, and

1211
00:42:00,974 --> 00:42:02,994
I know that that can be a trigger.

1212
00:42:03,295 --> 00:42:04,654
And what do you need from me right

1213
00:42:04,654 --> 00:42:05,714
now? Mhmm.

1214
00:42:07,650 --> 00:42:10,309
And for the guys, if it goes sideways,

1215
00:42:10,530 --> 00:42:11,829
which it absolutely

1216
00:42:12,210 --> 00:42:12,710
can,

1217
00:42:13,809 --> 00:42:16,210
stay grounded and just say just say, I

1218
00:42:16,210 --> 00:42:18,609
understand that. I my point of bringing it

1219
00:42:18,609 --> 00:42:19,510
up was,

1220
00:42:20,735 --> 00:42:22,255
I know this is something that we're working

1221
00:42:22,255 --> 00:42:25,055
on. I I I'm sorry. I'm I'm sorry.

1222
00:42:25,055 --> 00:42:26,574
You know, I didn't intend to turn this

1223
00:42:26,574 --> 00:42:28,335
into an argument. I didn't intend to trigger

1224
00:42:28,335 --> 00:42:30,275
you or activate you. Because because, guys,

1225
00:42:30,735 --> 00:42:32,670
you broaching this topic, I'm I'm not gonna

1226
00:42:32,670 --> 00:42:33,869
lie to you and say it's gonna go

1227
00:42:34,030 --> 00:42:36,750
it's always gonna go well. You know, she

1228
00:42:36,750 --> 00:42:38,349
might not have been triggered by her, and

1229
00:42:38,349 --> 00:42:40,349
now you bringing it up is like, oh,

1230
00:42:40,349 --> 00:42:41,710
shit. You know, do I have something to

1231
00:42:41,710 --> 00:42:43,469
worry about? So but but my point is,

1232
00:42:43,469 --> 00:42:44,829
guys, I I don't want you to worry

1233
00:42:44,829 --> 00:42:45,795
about any of that.

1234
00:42:46,275 --> 00:42:48,755
Stay true and proud of your recovery. You're

1235
00:42:48,755 --> 00:42:51,174
just you're trying to show her that,

1236
00:42:51,954 --> 00:42:53,875
you're in good recovery. And so,

1237
00:42:54,275 --> 00:42:54,934
you know,

1238
00:42:55,554 --> 00:42:58,194
you you've gotta untether from her reactions to

1239
00:42:58,194 --> 00:43:00,994
a degree. Don't don't ignore them. Have have

1240
00:43:00,994 --> 00:43:03,929
empathy for them. But also don't don't second

1241
00:43:03,929 --> 00:43:04,429
guess,

1242
00:43:04,730 --> 00:43:06,250
oh, I'm just not gonna tell her next

1243
00:43:06,250 --> 00:43:07,369
time. But that's what a lot of guys

1244
00:43:07,369 --> 00:43:08,809
do is, oh, well, that didn't go well,

1245
00:43:08,809 --> 00:43:10,329
so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna bring

1246
00:43:10,329 --> 00:43:12,489
it up next time. No. That's not true.

1247
00:43:12,489 --> 00:43:14,090
You could ask her. You could say, hey,

1248
00:43:14,329 --> 00:43:15,849
was it helpful for me to bring that

1249
00:43:15,849 --> 00:43:17,755
up to you? I mean, this is what

1250
00:43:17,755 --> 00:43:18,954
Michelle and I are trying to do is

1251
00:43:18,954 --> 00:43:20,315
we're not gonna promise you that this is

1252
00:43:20,315 --> 00:43:21,835
gonna go well. What we're trying to say

1253
00:43:21,835 --> 00:43:22,335
is

1254
00:43:23,034 --> 00:43:24,235
that this is the type of back and

1255
00:43:24,235 --> 00:43:25,675
forth that you guys have to have. If

1256
00:43:25,675 --> 00:43:27,675
you handle it poorly and she becomes more

1257
00:43:27,675 --> 00:43:30,074
activated by it, ask her and say, hey,

1258
00:43:30,074 --> 00:43:31,619
would would you prefer that I don't tell

1259
00:43:31,619 --> 00:43:33,699
you when I'm using my tools? Would would

1260
00:43:33,859 --> 00:43:35,460
do you you know, maybe your wife doesn't

1261
00:43:35,460 --> 00:43:36,599
want you to bring it up.

1262
00:43:36,980 --> 00:43:38,119
I've heard the opposite.

1263
00:43:38,420 --> 00:43:40,339
I would say from 90% of wives, they

1264
00:43:40,339 --> 00:43:41,559
appreciate hearing

1265
00:43:42,019 --> 00:43:44,260
you being in your recovery in the moment.

1266
00:43:44,739 --> 00:43:46,179
But, again, she might not want to, so

1267
00:43:46,179 --> 00:43:48,235
just ask. And or if she or if

1268
00:43:48,235 --> 00:43:49,755
or if she does appreciate it but it

1269
00:43:49,755 --> 00:43:51,434
went sideways, say, hey. Was there a better

1270
00:43:51,434 --> 00:43:53,675
way I could have gone about that that

1271
00:43:53,675 --> 00:43:55,914
would have been less activating for you? Because

1272
00:43:55,914 --> 00:43:57,195
she's gonna have to give you some of

1273
00:43:57,195 --> 00:43:58,474
the feedback as well. You can't you're not

1274
00:43:58,474 --> 00:43:59,675
gonna be able to read her mind, and

1275
00:43:59,675 --> 00:44:00,449
she knows that.

1276
00:44:00,929 --> 00:44:03,010
But, again, I think where guys go sideways

1277
00:44:03,010 --> 00:44:03,510
is

1278
00:44:03,809 --> 00:44:06,369
they assume that they're in bad recovery because

1279
00:44:06,369 --> 00:44:07,269
of her reaction

1280
00:44:07,650 --> 00:44:08,389
and and,

1281
00:44:08,929 --> 00:44:10,929
you know, careful doing that because it's it's

1282
00:44:10,929 --> 00:44:12,230
gonna drive you guys apart.

1283
00:44:12,530 --> 00:44:14,554
Well, it is. And one thing that I

1284
00:44:14,554 --> 00:44:16,875
think is really important with the men that

1285
00:44:16,875 --> 00:44:18,014
I work with is

1286
00:44:18,474 --> 00:44:19,534
can you be

1287
00:44:20,074 --> 00:44:23,054
that strength, that tree that stands and holds

1288
00:44:23,355 --> 00:44:26,234
Yeah. Against the wind? Like, can her anger,

1289
00:44:26,234 --> 00:44:28,074
can her emotion be like a wind that

1290
00:44:28,074 --> 00:44:31,260
runs through? And can you be the tree

1291
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,900
that lets that wind wrestle through

1292
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,579
instead of being so bent over her motion?

1293
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,519
Another visual I give mine is envision that

1294
00:44:40,519 --> 00:44:41,260
you're holding

1295
00:44:41,559 --> 00:44:42,300
the container

1296
00:44:42,894 --> 00:44:44,414
that all her words are going into it

1297
00:44:44,414 --> 00:44:46,255
and you're witnessing them like, oh man that

1298
00:44:46,255 --> 00:44:47,155
sounds painful.

1299
00:44:47,775 --> 00:44:50,335
And see the pain that she's putting into

1300
00:44:50,335 --> 00:44:52,515
the container that you're holding because you're responsible

1301
00:44:53,135 --> 00:44:54,275
for this container

1302
00:44:54,575 --> 00:44:56,815
and can you just listen to and witness

1303
00:44:56,815 --> 00:44:59,480
the words? Can you hold? Because

1304
00:44:59,860 --> 00:45:01,539
let's say it is activating. Let's say this

1305
00:45:01,539 --> 00:45:04,500
does go sideways. There's a reason she's activated.

1306
00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:06,739
Maybe it triggers some old anger and she

1307
00:45:06,739 --> 00:45:09,539
just is gonna spin out. Mhmm. The more

1308
00:45:09,539 --> 00:45:11,300
you can stand and hold that one, isn't

1309
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:13,964
it? Like, man, yeah. I And I empathize

1310
00:45:13,964 --> 00:45:15,804
with guys because, you know, you guys might

1311
00:45:15,804 --> 00:45:17,565
not wanna admit this. I'm at a point

1312
00:45:17,565 --> 00:45:19,585
in my recovery where I will admit this.

1313
00:45:20,045 --> 00:45:22,444
I'm an insecure person. I'm sensitive. I take

1314
00:45:22,444 --> 00:45:23,505
everything personally.

1315
00:45:23,804 --> 00:45:26,130
I it's hard for me to be that

1316
00:45:26,289 --> 00:45:29,009
strong masculine energy that she needs. It's hard

1317
00:45:29,009 --> 00:45:31,269
for me to be that strongly rooted tree.

1318
00:45:31,730 --> 00:45:33,750
I'm I'm I am. I am an insecure

1319
00:45:34,449 --> 00:45:36,529
guy, and I take everything personally. So when

1320
00:45:36,529 --> 00:45:37,509
things go sideways,

1321
00:45:37,969 --> 00:45:39,429
the first thought is,

1322
00:45:40,114 --> 00:45:42,034
oh god, I'm in a I'm in a,

1323
00:45:42,034 --> 00:45:44,275
you know, I'm in a crappy relationship. Oh,

1324
00:45:44,275 --> 00:45:45,875
she doesn't care about me. I mean, it

1325
00:45:45,875 --> 00:45:49,074
always becomes about me. And, it's just it's

1326
00:45:49,074 --> 00:45:50,914
it's hard for me to stay in that

1327
00:45:50,914 --> 00:45:52,755
place that she needs me to be. And

1328
00:45:52,755 --> 00:45:54,054
I'm trying I'm trying

1329
00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:56,179
to not make it about me in those

1330
00:45:56,179 --> 00:45:58,500
moments because that's what she needs. She doesn't

1331
00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:00,500
need me to make it take it personally.

1332
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:02,739
She needs me to be present with her.

1333
00:46:02,739 --> 00:46:04,579
And I just, you know, it's it's hard.

1334
00:46:04,579 --> 00:46:06,420
It's really, really hard for me. The the

1335
00:46:06,420 --> 00:46:09,335
right one that happens, my first instinct is

1336
00:46:09,335 --> 00:46:11,335
I'm failing. I'm a bad husband. She doesn't

1337
00:46:11,335 --> 00:46:14,054
trust me. We're back to square one. And

1338
00:46:14,054 --> 00:46:16,135
guys, if you tell yourself that narrative, you're

1339
00:46:16,135 --> 00:46:18,775
so screwed. It's just it's depriving. That's that

1340
00:46:18,775 --> 00:46:21,574
lack of empathy that she's complaining about. And

1341
00:46:21,574 --> 00:46:24,159
she's not she's right, but she's wrong. She's

1342
00:46:24,159 --> 00:46:26,559
right because you're not being empathetic, because you're

1343
00:46:26,559 --> 00:46:28,400
making it about you, and in that kind

1344
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,980
of shameful experience, it's impossible to be empathetic.

1345
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,440
She's wrong in the sense that I know

1346
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,280
you care about her, and I know you

1347
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:36,963
wish you could be empathetic. Empathetic. But that's

1348
00:46:36,963 --> 00:46:38,954
this that's the challenge of this of this

1349
00:46:38,954 --> 00:46:41,454
this nightmare that we've gotten ourselves into is

1350
00:46:41,835 --> 00:46:43,675
most men that I've met who have this

1351
00:46:43,675 --> 00:46:45,135
problem are incredibly insecure.

1352
00:46:45,434 --> 00:46:47,514
And so what we're asking you guys to

1353
00:46:47,514 --> 00:46:50,155
do is be secure in, arguably, the most

1354
00:46:50,155 --> 00:46:51,300
painful time ever.

1355
00:46:51,860 --> 00:46:53,719
And it's a big ask. But, again,

1356
00:46:54,019 --> 00:46:55,699
communicate with that with your wife. You know,

1357
00:46:55,699 --> 00:46:57,219
my my wife knows how hard it is

1358
00:46:57,219 --> 00:46:59,380
for me to not take this personally because

1359
00:46:59,380 --> 00:47:01,539
of how wounded I am. And, again, that's

1360
00:47:01,539 --> 00:47:03,539
another conversation that you guys are having. But

1361
00:47:03,539 --> 00:47:05,264
I I just wanted to speak to how

1362
00:47:05,264 --> 00:47:07,105
hard it is to be that strongly rooted

1363
00:47:07,105 --> 00:47:10,065
tree, at least for myself. It's it's that's

1364
00:47:10,065 --> 00:47:11,664
that's never been who I am, and I'm

1365
00:47:11,664 --> 00:47:12,864
I'm trying to get to that place, and

1366
00:47:12,864 --> 00:47:14,625
that's part of my recovery. I was just

1367
00:47:14,625 --> 00:47:16,644
saying that is part of your healing recovery,

1368
00:47:16,704 --> 00:47:17,204
which,

1369
00:47:17,904 --> 00:47:19,125
working with doctor Manmala,

1370
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,839
you know, he would always say, take a

1371
00:47:21,839 --> 00:47:23,920
cup, put it up against the molasses tree

1372
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:25,679
in the coldest day in February, we're gonna

1373
00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:26,960
wait for it to drip, and that's as

1374
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:28,179
fast as this work runs.

1375
00:47:29,199 --> 00:47:31,199
Mhmm. I love that. I love that. It's

1376
00:47:31,199 --> 00:47:33,280
true. It has to be slow. It has

1377
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,575
to be take a bite of the elephant.

1378
00:47:35,575 --> 00:47:38,934
We're chewing it. We're metabolizing it and shitting

1379
00:47:38,934 --> 00:47:40,614
it out before we actually take another bite.

1380
00:47:40,614 --> 00:47:42,375
Yeah. I like that. I like that. I

1381
00:47:42,375 --> 00:47:45,015
like that. Yeah. That was the process. And

1382
00:47:45,015 --> 00:47:47,414
I know men and women were like, let's

1383
00:47:47,414 --> 00:47:49,675
get somewhere else. Let's get back to normal.

1384
00:47:50,159 --> 00:47:53,199
Whatever normal is, your normal didn't work, so

1385
00:47:53,199 --> 00:47:54,579
let's not go back to normal.

1386
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,760
Let's go back to a healthier space that

1387
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,079
is slow in the recovery for both of

1388
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:02,339
you because it the healing,

1389
00:48:02,784 --> 00:48:05,505
it's there's individual healing and then there's relational

1390
00:48:05,505 --> 00:48:08,224
healing. There's three plates that spin. Mhmm. Mhmm.

1391
00:48:08,224 --> 00:48:10,385
I like that. I think that's and ignoring

1392
00:48:10,385 --> 00:48:11,925
any of them is is is

1393
00:48:12,385 --> 00:48:14,545
is is is not good. They all need

1394
00:48:14,545 --> 00:48:16,989
to be examined. Right? So, Michelle, if somebody's

1395
00:48:16,989 --> 00:48:18,609
gonna, reach out to you,

1396
00:48:18,909 --> 00:48:19,710
how do they,

1397
00:48:20,109 --> 00:48:22,109
how do they get in contact? What's the

1398
00:48:22,109 --> 00:48:24,349
what's the best way to connect with you?

1399
00:48:24,349 --> 00:48:25,409
Where are you licensed?

1400
00:48:26,029 --> 00:48:27,644
Give us some of that information, please.

1401
00:48:28,125 --> 00:48:29,824
Yeah. I am not

1402
00:48:30,765 --> 00:48:31,265
a

1403
00:48:31,965 --> 00:48:33,885
I'm not an Internet gal, so I don't

1404
00:48:33,885 --> 00:48:34,704
have a website.

1405
00:48:36,445 --> 00:48:38,784
Good for you. I maybe have a TikTok.

1406
00:48:38,925 --> 00:48:39,664
That's old.

1407
00:48:41,219 --> 00:48:43,699
I am I'm just I'd I'm not on

1408
00:48:43,699 --> 00:48:45,239
the I'm not on the socials,

1409
00:48:46,579 --> 00:48:47,780
so that's a terrible way to try and

1410
00:48:47,780 --> 00:48:49,300
get a hold of me. Best way to

1411
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:50,739
try and get a hold of me is

1412
00:48:50,739 --> 00:48:52,360
through email. Yep.

1413
00:48:54,099 --> 00:48:59,085
Atmmedsall@counselingcenterwestwm.org.

1414
00:48:59,784 --> 00:49:01,224
Mhmm. I'll put that in the show notes

1415
00:49:01,224 --> 00:49:02,824
so that they have a way to contact

1416
00:49:02,824 --> 00:49:03,484
it. Yep.

1417
00:49:04,025 --> 00:49:04,525
And,

1418
00:49:05,704 --> 00:49:08,664
I am on doctor Manuela's website, so you

1419
00:49:08,664 --> 00:49:10,585
can also find me through his website as

1420
00:49:10,585 --> 00:49:12,880
one of his people have gone through his

1421
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:13,380
training.

1422
00:49:15,039 --> 00:49:16,800
You asked me something else. How to find

1423
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,599
No. No. That's impossible. Licensed in Michigan. Accor.

1424
00:49:19,599 --> 00:49:21,940
Yeah. Mhmm. Yes. And I'm moving to Pennsylvania,

1425
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,414
so then that is my next

1426
00:49:24,454 --> 00:49:25,835
checkbox of licensure

1427
00:49:26,454 --> 00:49:28,635
to be licensed in Pennsylvania as well.

1428
00:49:28,934 --> 00:49:30,934
But I can actually work with anybody in

1429
00:49:30,934 --> 00:49:33,175
Michigan no matter where I'm at and And

1430
00:49:33,175 --> 00:49:35,275
partners, addicts, and couples,

1431
00:49:35,815 --> 00:49:37,035
all three? Or,

1432
00:49:37,574 --> 00:49:39,355
I do do all three.

1433
00:49:40,190 --> 00:49:42,349
It just depends on where people are. I

1434
00:49:42,349 --> 00:49:44,769
don't see any couples with somebody under

1435
00:49:45,150 --> 00:49:47,949
ninety days sobriety. Yeah. Yeah. I like that.

1436
00:49:47,949 --> 00:49:49,869
I like that. And then each person needs

1437
00:49:49,869 --> 00:49:50,769
to be an individual,

1438
00:49:51,724 --> 00:49:53,804
their own individual before I will see them

1439
00:49:53,804 --> 00:49:55,585
as a couple shot. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise,

1440
00:49:56,284 --> 00:49:56,784
sometimes,

1441
00:49:57,405 --> 00:49:59,244
and because I was a coach before I

1442
00:49:59,244 --> 00:50:01,085
was a therapist, I also work across eight

1443
00:50:01,085 --> 00:50:03,324
lines Yeah. Cool. With a coaching degree. Yeah.

1444
00:50:03,324 --> 00:50:03,824
Cool.

1445
00:50:04,125 --> 00:50:06,079
As well. Awesome. Yeah. So if you guys

1446
00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:07,300
resonated with her,

1447
00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:08,960
even if you are not in those two

1448
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:10,559
states, still reach out. It still could be

1449
00:50:10,559 --> 00:50:11,940
it still could be a great fit.

1450
00:50:12,559 --> 00:50:14,559
Michelle, this is awesome. I love this thing.

1451
00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:17,380
Let's, let's do it again. Sounds great, Rowan.

1452
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,594
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1453
00:50:20,594 --> 00:50:22,434
are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1454
00:50:22,434 --> 00:50:24,114
and you're looking for a recovery group full

1455
00:50:24,114 --> 00:50:27,235
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1456
00:50:27,235 --> 00:50:30,034
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1457
00:50:30,034 --> 00:50:31,335
using four day retreats,

1458
00:50:31,635 --> 00:50:33,050
weekly group calls, calls,

1459
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:33,930
and

1460
00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:34,890
daily accountability

1461
00:50:35,349 --> 00:50:36,710
check ins. If you wanna achieve long term

1462
00:50:36,710 --> 00:50:38,150
sobriety and save your marriage, go to our

1463
00:50:38,150 --> 00:50:39,610
website, fill out our application.

1464
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:41,369
If you enjoyed this episode,

1465
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:43,269
please pass it along to a friend in

1466
00:50:43,269 --> 00:50:45,269
recovery who would benefit from listening. It is

1467
00:50:45,269 --> 00:50:47,096
my mission to get this information out to

1468
00:50:47,096 --> 00:50:48,076
as many high achievers

1469
00:50:48,376 --> 00:50:50,295
as possible, and I can't do it without

1470
00:50:50,295 --> 00:50:50,956
your help.

Share

Podcast | Uploaded Sep 19, 2024

17. Powerlessness is BS and It Keeps Sex Addicts Stuck

As a high-achiever and entrepreneur, I’ve always taken an issue with step 1 of the twelve steps: “We admitted we were powerless.” I believe this is one of the reasons why so many men struggle... Continue

Podcast | Uploaded Mar 13, 2025

39. Can sex addicts be sober living in the US?

We claim to value monogamy and committed relationships… but, do our actions line up with that? Desire and attraction are baked into our DNA. Nothing you can do will change that. So, what are you... Continue

Podcast | Uploaded Sep 26, 2024

18. How A Sex Addict Can Repair The Marriage (from the author of “Help Her Heal”)

Carol Juergensen Sheets is considered by many to be the "grandmother" of sex addiction. Her book, "Help Her Heal," is used by thousands of couples all over the world. Sex and porn addicts have a... Continue

Podcast | Uploaded Oct 03, 2024

19. High-achievers are expert shape shifters and people pleasers. While great traits in business, they can worsen your sex addiction.

Sex and Porn Addiction is not about sex and pornography. It is all about the story attached to the behavior. Most sex addicts have no idea what these stories are. As a result, stopping these... Continue

Podcast | Uploaded Feb 10, 2026

97. Sex Addiction and Narcissism: Are You A Narcissist?

Narcissism is a word you’ll hear quite a bit these days. And, it’s often brought up around men struggling with a sex addiction and chronic cheating. But there’s a difference between narcissistic personality disorder (NPD)... Continue