1
00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,359
Financial success is a learned skill, right? We

2
00:00:03,359 --> 00:00:06,080
develop these tactics and strategies over time so

3
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,400
that we can succeed in business and climb

4
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,400
the ladder and grow our reputation. Well, the

5
00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,000
problem is a lot of these strategies that

6
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,695
we use to become financially successful don't always

7
00:00:14,695 --> 00:00:17,494
translate into happiness in life or becoming a

8
00:00:17,494 --> 00:00:19,655
man of integrity. In this episode, we break

9
00:00:19,655 --> 00:00:22,695
down where successful men go wrong and what

10
00:00:22,695 --> 00:00:24,074
you need to do to fix it.

11
00:00:25,230 --> 00:00:27,329
You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

12
00:00:27,390 --> 00:00:30,609
for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

13
00:00:30,989 --> 00:00:33,549
This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

14
00:00:33,549 --> 00:00:34,530
recovery principles

15
00:00:34,829 --> 00:00:37,489
specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

16
00:00:37,789 --> 00:00:40,184
I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

17
00:00:40,184 --> 00:00:42,664
Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

18
00:00:42,664 --> 00:00:45,144
men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

19
00:00:45,144 --> 00:00:47,464
more information about joining our group or attending

20
00:00:47,464 --> 00:00:50,445
our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

21
00:00:50,504 --> 00:00:52,604
And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

22
00:00:54,820 --> 00:00:57,219
I am here today with Mary Anne, and

23
00:00:57,219 --> 00:00:59,939
we have a cool topic to discuss, which

24
00:00:59,939 --> 00:01:01,380
I hit on off and on, but I

25
00:01:01,380 --> 00:01:03,059
think Mary Anne and I are planning to

26
00:01:03,059 --> 00:01:03,380
go

27
00:01:04,420 --> 00:01:07,239
Let's first talk about the difference between

28
00:01:08,454 --> 00:01:10,234
business success, success in capitalism,

29
00:01:10,615 --> 00:01:12,375
and recovery because I think that's a great

30
00:01:12,375 --> 00:01:14,135
place to start before we dive into the

31
00:01:14,135 --> 00:01:16,155
topics that we're actually gonna speak to.

32
00:01:16,534 --> 00:01:17,674
You know, for me,

33
00:01:18,935 --> 00:01:19,435
I

34
00:01:19,990 --> 00:01:21,530
I tried to tackle

35
00:01:21,829 --> 00:01:23,609
everything with my high achieverness

36
00:01:24,469 --> 00:01:25,829
because I'm a high achiever. It's what I

37
00:01:25,829 --> 00:01:27,430
do, and everything that's ever gotten in my

38
00:01:27,430 --> 00:01:30,790
way, I have attacked it with my rolling

39
00:01:30,790 --> 00:01:32,709
powers and crushed the thing and got it

40
00:01:32,709 --> 00:01:33,674
out of my way.

41
00:01:34,635 --> 00:01:36,495
So I tried to do that with recovery.

42
00:01:37,355 --> 00:01:39,755
It didn't work. Why didn't it work, Mary

43
00:01:39,755 --> 00:01:40,255
Anne?

44
00:01:42,234 --> 00:01:44,555
Wow. That is, like, such a loaded question

45
00:01:44,555 --> 00:01:46,950
to start with, Roland. I know. Let me

46
00:01:46,950 --> 00:01:48,629
let me give you my my first thoughts

47
00:01:48,629 --> 00:01:50,390
on that, and there's so many directions to

48
00:01:50,390 --> 00:01:51,530
go with this. But

49
00:01:51,909 --> 00:01:54,150
when I when we just kinda, like, distill

50
00:01:54,150 --> 00:01:55,829
it down and really look like what's going

51
00:01:55,829 --> 00:01:57,829
on here, the first word that came to

52
00:01:57,829 --> 00:01:59,894
my mind as you were talking is this

53
00:01:59,894 --> 00:02:00,954
is about attachment,

54
00:02:01,334 --> 00:02:02,715
and this is about relationships.

55
00:02:03,494 --> 00:02:05,734
And the research tells us that, you know,

56
00:02:05,734 --> 00:02:07,334
they they did some interviews with people who

57
00:02:07,334 --> 00:02:09,094
were on their deathbeds, and they said, like,

58
00:02:09,094 --> 00:02:11,175
let's talk about, like, how you wish you

59
00:02:11,175 --> 00:02:12,794
would have lived your life differently.

60
00:02:13,290 --> 00:02:14,889
And the number one thing people said, they

61
00:02:14,889 --> 00:02:16,409
didn't say, I wish I had more money.

62
00:02:16,409 --> 00:02:18,430
I wish I had more success. They said,

63
00:02:19,449 --> 00:02:21,129
I wish I had I I had more

64
00:02:21,129 --> 00:02:22,729
time with the people I love, the people

65
00:02:22,729 --> 00:02:24,650
I care about. And I think one of

66
00:02:24,650 --> 00:02:26,330
the things I know we're gonna be talking

67
00:02:26,330 --> 00:02:28,270
about today, it it is about those relationships,

68
00:02:28,409 --> 00:02:29,685
and it's about the connections.

69
00:02:30,144 --> 00:02:32,384
And so when we're looking at addiction, I

70
00:02:32,384 --> 00:02:33,824
think one of the things that we miss

71
00:02:33,824 --> 00:02:35,364
so often is the addiction.

72
00:02:36,064 --> 00:02:37,844
It's really an attachment issue.

73
00:02:38,625 --> 00:02:40,625
It's about how we attach and connect to

74
00:02:40,625 --> 00:02:44,164
other people, and oftentimes, we're turning to addiction

75
00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:45,979
instead of the

76
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,099
attachment. Mhmm. And so It's I I think

77
00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,020
and and just for the listeners,

78
00:02:51,319 --> 00:02:54,060
what she what I think you're saying is

79
00:02:54,599 --> 00:02:55,500
these maladaptive

80
00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:56,300
behaviors

81
00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:57,419
subconsciously

82
00:02:58,599 --> 00:02:59,740
are from a

83
00:03:01,004 --> 00:03:03,004
unmet attachment need. Is that what you're getting

84
00:03:03,004 --> 00:03:06,364
at? Sure. Absolutely. So why am I going

85
00:03:06,685 --> 00:03:09,245
why am I acting out with this behavior

86
00:03:09,245 --> 00:03:10,685
that I don't really want in my life?

87
00:03:10,685 --> 00:03:12,604
I'm really successful in all the other parts

88
00:03:12,604 --> 00:03:14,205
of my life. Why can't I take care

89
00:03:14,205 --> 00:03:16,539
of this? Mhmm. And really looking at what

90
00:03:16,539 --> 00:03:19,120
am I turning to and why and when.

91
00:03:19,419 --> 00:03:21,199
And I'm not turning to other people.

92
00:03:22,139 --> 00:03:23,659
And, I mean, I'm turning to other people,

93
00:03:23,659 --> 00:03:26,139
but not the people that I have lasting

94
00:03:26,139 --> 00:03:28,299
relationships with that I want to be turning

95
00:03:28,299 --> 00:03:30,245
to. Mhmm. Does that Yeah. It's yeah. You're

96
00:03:30,245 --> 00:03:32,885
you're, you know, you're doing something that you're

97
00:03:32,885 --> 00:03:34,564
hiding. I mean, in my case, I don't

98
00:03:34,564 --> 00:03:36,085
know. Some of these guys, their friends know.

99
00:03:36,085 --> 00:03:37,685
I mean, I didn't even tell my best

100
00:03:37,685 --> 00:03:39,525
friends. I mean, no one no one knew

101
00:03:39,525 --> 00:03:40,965
what I was doing. I hid it from

102
00:03:40,965 --> 00:03:43,830
everybody. And so, yeah, this question of, like,

103
00:03:43,990 --> 00:03:46,150
have we ever stopped to wonder why we

104
00:03:46,150 --> 00:03:49,050
would engage in a high risk behavior

105
00:03:49,430 --> 00:03:49,930
repetitively

106
00:03:50,310 --> 00:03:52,150
and hide it? Right? You know,

107
00:03:52,870 --> 00:03:55,270
what's what's what's the inner workings behind that?

108
00:03:55,270 --> 00:03:56,625
So that kind of I like that you

109
00:03:56,625 --> 00:03:58,145
teed us up that way because that brings

110
00:03:58,145 --> 00:04:00,145
us to the topic that we wanna discuss,

111
00:04:00,145 --> 00:04:00,885
which was

112
00:04:01,665 --> 00:04:02,405
you can't

113
00:04:02,705 --> 00:04:03,685
do this alone.

114
00:04:04,944 --> 00:04:06,544
I want to spend the rest of our

115
00:04:06,544 --> 00:04:08,564
time together proving this because

116
00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:10,420
it's a very difficult thing to prove. Mary

117
00:04:10,420 --> 00:04:11,540
Anne, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you right

118
00:04:11,540 --> 00:04:13,379
now. When I first got into recovery and

119
00:04:13,379 --> 00:04:14,980
I met my CSAT and he told me,

120
00:04:14,980 --> 00:04:15,480
Roland,

121
00:04:16,420 --> 00:04:18,899
peer support, peer you know, connecting with other

122
00:04:18,899 --> 00:04:20,520
men struggling like you're struggling

123
00:04:20,995 --> 00:04:23,074
is gonna be 400%

124
00:04:23,074 --> 00:04:25,794
more effective than the runner-up. He was just

125
00:04:25,794 --> 00:04:27,875
like, it's it's gonna be four times more

126
00:04:27,875 --> 00:04:29,814
effective than therapy. He just told me that,

127
00:04:29,954 --> 00:04:31,794
and I didn't take him seriously because the

128
00:04:31,794 --> 00:04:33,954
thing that I thought was I'm around people

129
00:04:33,954 --> 00:04:35,860
all the time. I I I speak on

130
00:04:35,860 --> 00:04:38,419
stage. I have, I'm a part of these

131
00:04:38,419 --> 00:04:39,560
mastermind groups.

132
00:04:40,099 --> 00:04:42,339
I have businesses with lots of employees who

133
00:04:42,339 --> 00:04:44,019
like me and I like them. Like, you

134
00:04:44,019 --> 00:04:45,620
know, my thought process, you know, my wife

135
00:04:45,620 --> 00:04:47,079
and I are going to all these clubs,

136
00:04:47,459 --> 00:04:50,095
friends and different things. It's like, I'm around

137
00:04:50,095 --> 00:04:51,855
people all the time. Like, I think you

138
00:04:51,855 --> 00:04:53,535
got the wrong guy. I think you're talking

139
00:04:53,535 --> 00:04:54,514
to your shy,

140
00:04:54,894 --> 00:04:56,894
pervert clients. Like, I don't think you're talking

141
00:04:56,894 --> 00:04:58,975
about me. So I I I'm saying that

142
00:04:58,975 --> 00:05:01,134
because I don't think people take this very

143
00:05:01,134 --> 00:05:01,634
seriously,

144
00:05:01,949 --> 00:05:04,029
and I might be projecting. Maybe other guys

145
00:05:04,029 --> 00:05:05,389
do. But, like, for me, that was my

146
00:05:05,389 --> 00:05:07,629
reaction was, oh, come on. How can sitting

147
00:05:07,629 --> 00:05:09,629
around in a circle with a bunch of

148
00:05:09,629 --> 00:05:12,110
other addicts actually help me? What would you

149
00:05:12,110 --> 00:05:14,449
say if I confronted you with

150
00:05:14,904 --> 00:05:17,245
calling BS on all of this connection nonsense?

151
00:05:18,824 --> 00:05:21,004
Well, you can call it all BS nonsense,

152
00:05:21,064 --> 00:05:23,865
but here here's where I go. What I

153
00:05:23,865 --> 00:05:25,865
think I'm hearing so I'm a therapist. Right?

154
00:05:25,865 --> 00:05:27,384
So I I I think like a therapist.

155
00:05:27,384 --> 00:05:27,884
And

156
00:05:28,199 --> 00:05:30,439
what I am hearing is, like, we're talking

157
00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:32,620
about self deception. We're talking about shame.

158
00:05:33,079 --> 00:05:34,600
The question I come down to, I always

159
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:35,500
wanna go why.

160
00:05:35,959 --> 00:05:37,959
So why is it that I can be

161
00:05:37,959 --> 00:05:40,539
sex successful in all these other places?

162
00:05:40,935 --> 00:05:43,014
And my question, Roland, is why didn't you

163
00:05:43,014 --> 00:05:44,774
tell other people? Why didn't you tell your

164
00:05:44,774 --> 00:05:45,435
best friend?

165
00:05:45,814 --> 00:05:47,915
And to me, that speaks to this

166
00:05:48,535 --> 00:05:49,754
belief of

167
00:05:51,014 --> 00:05:53,014
they won't like me. They won't accept me.

168
00:05:53,014 --> 00:05:54,875
They'll think I'm a pervert. We live

169
00:05:55,459 --> 00:05:56,899
I'm gonna get on a soapbox here for

170
00:05:56,899 --> 00:05:58,899
just a second. Okay? Go for it. My

171
00:05:58,899 --> 00:06:00,439
soapbox is this

172
00:06:00,979 --> 00:06:03,319
incredible dissonance that we have.

173
00:06:04,500 --> 00:06:07,539
Our women our little girls are treated and

174
00:06:07,539 --> 00:06:09,539
taught that for them to have any value

175
00:06:09,539 --> 00:06:10,360
in our society,

176
00:06:10,865 --> 00:06:11,925
they need to be sexual.

177
00:06:13,024 --> 00:06:14,865
They need to be appealing. They need to

178
00:06:14,865 --> 00:06:16,785
look pretty. They need to be their value

179
00:06:16,785 --> 00:06:17,524
and worth

180
00:06:17,824 --> 00:06:20,225
is based on their sexual appeal, on on

181
00:06:20,225 --> 00:06:21,985
whether or not men find them attractive and

182
00:06:21,985 --> 00:06:22,485
desirable.

183
00:06:23,039 --> 00:06:25,439
That is their often has the value that

184
00:06:25,439 --> 00:06:26,979
our world, that our media teaches.

185
00:06:27,439 --> 00:06:30,500
And you get the media that teaches men,

186
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:31,060
oh,

187
00:06:31,439 --> 00:06:33,220
you need to have this beautiful woman.

188
00:06:33,759 --> 00:06:35,860
Here's here's all the markers for success.

189
00:06:37,305 --> 00:06:40,024
And then when somebody says, oh, okay. I'm

190
00:06:40,024 --> 00:06:41,704
doing everything that the media has taught me

191
00:06:41,704 --> 00:06:43,084
to do that I've learned,

192
00:06:44,584 --> 00:06:46,904
and I don't feel connected. I don't I

193
00:06:46,904 --> 00:06:49,144
don't wanna tell anybody about this because I'm

194
00:06:49,144 --> 00:06:51,099
betraying my spouse who I made promises to,

195
00:06:51,099 --> 00:06:53,180
and that's not the person who I really

196
00:06:53,180 --> 00:06:54,319
want to be. And

197
00:06:55,740 --> 00:06:57,120
people who do that are perverts.

198
00:06:58,060 --> 00:07:00,459
Our so our society then finds somebody. It's

199
00:07:00,459 --> 00:07:02,379
in the newspapers. It's in the tabloids. It's

200
00:07:02,379 --> 00:07:04,959
everywhere. Look at this person. They're so horrible.

201
00:07:05,665 --> 00:07:07,425
And they vilify them. So we have a

202
00:07:07,425 --> 00:07:08,944
media that teaches this is what you need

203
00:07:08,944 --> 00:07:10,865
to do to be successful. And then when

204
00:07:10,865 --> 00:07:12,465
it's found out that you're doing that, it

205
00:07:12,465 --> 00:07:14,564
comes out in the open Mhmm. You're vilified.

206
00:07:15,185 --> 00:07:16,944
How do you live in a how do

207
00:07:16,944 --> 00:07:19,264
you make something in that society? So there's

208
00:07:19,264 --> 00:07:21,740
a shame component that says, I can't tell

209
00:07:21,740 --> 00:07:23,920
anybody because if people really knew,

210
00:07:24,460 --> 00:07:26,779
they wouldn't accept me. I'd be vilified. So

211
00:07:26,779 --> 00:07:27,819
I'd have to go sit in one of

212
00:07:27,819 --> 00:07:29,900
those groups with all those perverts. Mhmm. I

213
00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:31,100
can't tell you how many of my clients

214
00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:31,759
are like,

215
00:07:32,220 --> 00:07:34,300
no way. Those those guys are monsters. Like,

216
00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:35,600
I'm not like them.

217
00:07:35,964 --> 00:07:37,584
I I don't wanna go be with them.

218
00:07:37,725 --> 00:07:39,324
They're not gonna help me. I have nothing

219
00:07:39,324 --> 00:07:40,464
in common with them.

220
00:07:41,164 --> 00:07:41,904
And so

221
00:07:42,365 --> 00:07:44,125
what I hear when I sift and sort

222
00:07:44,125 --> 00:07:45,884
through all of that is this this message

223
00:07:45,884 --> 00:07:46,544
of shame.

224
00:07:46,925 --> 00:07:47,425
Like,

225
00:07:47,805 --> 00:07:49,884
if people knew, they would reject me, so

226
00:07:49,884 --> 00:07:52,129
I can't tell anybody. Mhmm. How how does

227
00:07:52,129 --> 00:07:54,209
that fit for you? Yeah. Well, and you

228
00:07:54,209 --> 00:07:55,730
dressed it up you you I love how

229
00:07:55,730 --> 00:07:57,029
you came at it because

230
00:07:58,689 --> 00:07:59,189
I

231
00:07:59,729 --> 00:08:01,810
will let you say that now because I've

232
00:08:01,810 --> 00:08:03,889
been through recovery, and I agree. That was

233
00:08:03,889 --> 00:08:05,345
that was the reason I didn't wanna get

234
00:08:05,425 --> 00:08:07,425
I made it about them. Oh, that guy,

235
00:08:07,425 --> 00:08:09,185
he did he looked at child porn. That

236
00:08:09,185 --> 00:08:11,425
guy that I I I don't belong in

237
00:08:11,425 --> 00:08:13,345
that room. Right? So that was my original

238
00:08:13,345 --> 00:08:13,845
mentality.

239
00:08:14,305 --> 00:08:16,405
But now it's funny that you say that.

240
00:08:16,865 --> 00:08:18,620
It was about me. I

241
00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,319
felt rather than him having him his issues

242
00:08:21,319 --> 00:08:24,360
and me showing up owning mine and showing

243
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,600
up and and working the process, understanding that

244
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,520
I'm sexually compulsive, you bring up a really

245
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,600
good point. I came there and made it

246
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,705
about me. Oh, well, I can't go to

247
00:08:32,705 --> 00:08:35,345
that room because that would make me a

248
00:08:35,345 --> 00:08:37,365
this, right? And so it's this,

249
00:08:37,904 --> 00:08:40,144
you know, inheriting a label to judgment. And

250
00:08:40,144 --> 00:08:42,004
Mary Anne, I love that you went

251
00:08:42,384 --> 00:08:45,024
the society's kind of, direction with it because

252
00:08:45,024 --> 00:08:46,485
I go that direction all the time.

253
00:08:47,339 --> 00:08:49,339
The only reason this is, the issue that

254
00:08:49,339 --> 00:08:51,759
it's been turned into is because

255
00:08:52,459 --> 00:08:54,379
you can be addicted to work. You can

256
00:08:54,379 --> 00:08:57,500
be anorexic, bulimic. You can be addicted to

257
00:08:57,500 --> 00:08:58,000
bodybuilding.

258
00:08:58,379 --> 00:09:00,220
You can be addicted to social media. You

259
00:09:00,220 --> 00:09:02,384
can be addicted to video games. Shoot. You

260
00:09:02,384 --> 00:09:04,785
could be addicted to alcohol and drugs, and

261
00:09:04,785 --> 00:09:05,685
it's all

262
00:09:06,225 --> 00:09:07,925
good. But you get addicted to this.

263
00:09:08,865 --> 00:09:09,365
Oh,

264
00:09:09,745 --> 00:09:11,985
no. I mean, you you're, you know, you

265
00:09:11,985 --> 00:09:14,404
tell someone you have a you're sexually compulsive,

266
00:09:15,069 --> 00:09:17,149
and, yeah, our our so I love that

267
00:09:17,149 --> 00:09:19,389
you went that way, and and everybody listening

268
00:09:19,389 --> 00:09:21,149
to this, like, you need to appreciate what

269
00:09:21,149 --> 00:09:22,529
she's saying, like,

270
00:09:23,389 --> 00:09:25,470
rather than getting the help you need, the

271
00:09:25,470 --> 00:09:27,149
help you want, the help, you know, to

272
00:09:27,149 --> 00:09:28,829
to rectify all of this, clean up your

273
00:09:28,829 --> 00:09:30,714
legacy, like like, live live a life you're

274
00:09:30,714 --> 00:09:32,894
proud of. Your, like, biggest barrier

275
00:09:33,674 --> 00:09:37,034
is other people's labels defining your behavior. And

276
00:09:37,034 --> 00:09:38,875
I just wanna empathize with the guys because

277
00:09:38,875 --> 00:09:40,475
you're also not wrong. You know, I wanna

278
00:09:40,475 --> 00:09:42,634
empathize with my audience. Guys, when we I

279
00:09:42,634 --> 00:09:44,794
decided to publicly announce what I did to

280
00:09:44,794 --> 00:09:45,454
my wife,

281
00:09:46,929 --> 00:09:49,509
on Valentine's Day, and I was roasted.

282
00:09:50,929 --> 00:09:53,809
I mean, people called me names. They told

283
00:09:53,809 --> 00:09:55,490
my wife that she they called my wife

284
00:09:55,649 --> 00:09:57,570
judged my wife for staying. I mean, so

285
00:09:57,570 --> 00:09:59,509
I just I wanna speak to that aspect

286
00:09:59,649 --> 00:10:01,269
and how that can kind of

287
00:10:01,654 --> 00:10:03,735
corrupt our ability to get the connection we

288
00:10:03,735 --> 00:10:06,375
need when we're allowing other people's judgments. But

289
00:10:06,375 --> 00:10:08,054
but it begs the question, Mary Anne, what

290
00:10:08,054 --> 00:10:09,415
do we do about it? Because if the

291
00:10:09,415 --> 00:10:11,514
truth is, if society is not ready

292
00:10:12,215 --> 00:10:14,615
for this problem, if they are going to

293
00:10:14,615 --> 00:10:16,774
call us names, if they're going to, you

294
00:10:16,774 --> 00:10:18,490
know, ew, you're a sex addict, where's the

295
00:10:18,490 --> 00:10:20,410
hand sanitizer? Right? Like, that's how I feel

296
00:10:20,410 --> 00:10:22,250
every time I tell someone. What do we

297
00:10:22,250 --> 00:10:24,250
do about that though? Because isn't that a

298
00:10:24,250 --> 00:10:25,950
massive barrier, but, like,

299
00:10:26,410 --> 00:10:28,490
it's a very real truth. How do we

300
00:10:28,490 --> 00:10:29,789
manage that in recovery?

301
00:10:32,534 --> 00:10:34,695
Wow. What a question. Let me just think

302
00:10:34,695 --> 00:10:36,934
about that for just a second because I

303
00:10:36,934 --> 00:10:38,875
I wanna go back to something you said.

304
00:10:39,254 --> 00:10:42,054
You said that I I told everybody about

305
00:10:42,054 --> 00:10:44,309
it. I I came out publicly with that.

306
00:10:44,629 --> 00:10:46,070
And and can I ask you a question

307
00:10:46,070 --> 00:10:48,070
about that really quickly before I jump over

308
00:10:48,070 --> 00:10:48,570
here?

309
00:10:50,070 --> 00:10:51,690
You said there was so much

310
00:10:52,149 --> 00:10:53,370
input from the public.

311
00:10:54,789 --> 00:10:56,389
But when I heard you talking about the

312
00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:57,750
the words that came to my mind, I

313
00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:59,750
just wanna verify if for you if this

314
00:10:59,750 --> 00:11:01,115
fits, but the words that came to my

315
00:11:01,115 --> 00:11:01,855
mind were,

316
00:11:02,235 --> 00:11:03,054
like, freedom.

317
00:11:03,514 --> 00:11:05,355
Mhmm. Was there a freedom there for you?

318
00:11:05,355 --> 00:11:07,274
And I'm wondering what that looked like for

319
00:11:07,274 --> 00:11:10,154
you. Yeah. I don't regret hitting the post

320
00:11:10,154 --> 00:11:12,075
button when I when I posted that. I

321
00:11:12,075 --> 00:11:14,039
don't regret it because and I had to

322
00:11:14,039 --> 00:11:16,279
go to my peer support group when I

323
00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:17,960
did it because I was like, guys, I

324
00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,240
thought I would, you know, here I am

325
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,000
writing books on this. I have a podcast,

326
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,759
you know, and here I am. I thought

327
00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:23,960
I was in a really good place to

328
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,519
be able to handle their wrath. And I

329
00:11:26,519 --> 00:11:28,200
will not I I will tell you this

330
00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,235
right now. I'm gonna admit this to everyone.

331
00:11:30,535 --> 00:11:32,774
I was wrecked by it. It wrecked me

332
00:11:32,774 --> 00:11:33,995
for a day and a half.

333
00:11:34,375 --> 00:11:36,375
I am I was like, oh my gosh.

334
00:11:36,375 --> 00:11:38,774
I everyone's gonna think about me different. But

335
00:11:38,774 --> 00:11:40,554
here's what I'll here's what I'll tell you.

336
00:11:40,615 --> 00:11:42,455
You know what my peer support group told

337
00:11:42,455 --> 00:11:44,490
me? The facilitator said, Rowan,

338
00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:47,029
sounds like it did exactly what you wanted

339
00:11:47,029 --> 00:11:49,269
it to do. And I was like I

340
00:11:49,269 --> 00:11:50,549
stopped and listened. I was like, you know

341
00:11:50,549 --> 00:11:52,789
what? He's right. Because the energy behind why

342
00:11:52,789 --> 00:11:54,730
I did it, Mary Anne, was because

343
00:11:55,924 --> 00:11:58,084
since as my wife and I have been

344
00:11:58,084 --> 00:12:00,904
progressively more vocal about this,

345
00:12:01,365 --> 00:12:03,144
all we have had is couples

346
00:12:03,605 --> 00:12:05,845
reach out to us about infidelity in their

347
00:12:05,845 --> 00:12:08,084
own relationships. And these are people who I

348
00:12:08,084 --> 00:12:10,084
mean, they they they they haven't told anyone.

349
00:12:10,084 --> 00:12:11,529
They haven't told their friends. They haven't told

350
00:12:11,529 --> 00:12:13,870
their parents. They're just so ashamed

351
00:12:14,730 --> 00:12:16,910
of what is going on in their relationship.

352
00:12:17,210 --> 00:12:18,809
And that was why I posted as we've

353
00:12:18,809 --> 00:12:20,730
just heard that story too many times to

354
00:12:20,730 --> 00:12:22,250
the point where I was like, alright. You

355
00:12:22,250 --> 00:12:23,774
know, we need to we need to,

356
00:12:24,254 --> 00:12:24,995
if I

357
00:12:25,855 --> 00:12:26,355
proudly

358
00:12:26,815 --> 00:12:28,975
go out and own what I did and

359
00:12:28,975 --> 00:12:29,875
own my journey.

360
00:12:30,254 --> 00:12:32,175
So, yeah, there was there was freedom, but

361
00:12:32,175 --> 00:12:33,615
at the same time, I think the biggest

362
00:12:33,615 --> 00:12:34,835
win from it was

363
00:12:35,870 --> 00:12:38,190
how horrible is it to suffer from this

364
00:12:38,190 --> 00:12:39,709
as a couple and not be able to

365
00:12:39,709 --> 00:12:41,870
tell anyone. I mean, that I I can't

366
00:12:41,870 --> 00:12:43,470
imagine that. You know? Because when my wife

367
00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:44,829
and I got this, you know, my wife's

368
00:12:44,829 --> 00:12:46,370
brilliant. She's smart. She's

369
00:12:46,829 --> 00:12:48,850
resourceful. We got into good recovery

370
00:12:49,504 --> 00:12:51,585
within months. I mean, really good recovery. I'm

371
00:12:51,585 --> 00:12:55,184
talking, like, you know, everything done really, really

372
00:12:55,184 --> 00:12:57,664
well. That's not most people. But, yes, to

373
00:12:57,664 --> 00:12:59,585
your to answer your question directly, was there

374
00:12:59,585 --> 00:13:01,184
freedom there? Yeah. And I don't regret I

375
00:13:01,184 --> 00:13:03,264
don't regret telling people because Yeah. It's part

376
00:13:03,264 --> 00:13:04,465
of my story, so why would I hide

377
00:13:04,465 --> 00:13:04,965
it?

378
00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:07,480
Oh, that question. Why would I hide it?

379
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:08,679
I mean, I think that's what we're talking

380
00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,720
about today. Right? But what I what I

381
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,959
hear you talking about is there's freedom to

382
00:13:13,959 --> 00:13:14,860
be authentic.

383
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,480
Yeah. Freedom to not have to hide anymore.

384
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,985
Our secrets do keep us sick. And so

385
00:13:19,985 --> 00:13:20,725
when we're

386
00:13:21,024 --> 00:13:23,585
living this double life, there's a self betrayal

387
00:13:23,585 --> 00:13:25,764
that's going on when I can't show up

388
00:13:26,144 --> 00:13:27,125
fully and authentically.

389
00:13:27,664 --> 00:13:29,504
And that is such an incredible price. And

390
00:13:29,504 --> 00:13:31,044
so we're you asked earlier.

391
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,639
Let me see if I remember exactly, like,

392
00:13:34,639 --> 00:13:36,320
the way you asked it. I think you'd

393
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,580
ask, like, how do we find those connections?

394
00:13:38,639 --> 00:13:40,399
Where do we go for those connections? And

395
00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:42,160
I think you hit it on the head,

396
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,004
though. We have to figure out how to

397
00:13:44,004 --> 00:13:46,245
show up authentically. Mhmm. And we have to

398
00:13:46,245 --> 00:13:48,084
look at so what are the barriers then

399
00:13:48,084 --> 00:13:50,245
that are keeping me stuck from being able

400
00:13:50,245 --> 00:13:52,404
to do that? And, you know, I have

401
00:13:52,404 --> 00:13:54,745
I have clients who are in

402
00:13:56,245 --> 00:13:57,304
very high profile,

403
00:13:58,860 --> 00:14:00,539
positions. And they'll say, if I did this,

404
00:14:00,539 --> 00:14:02,139
like, everybody would know, and I lose my

405
00:14:02,139 --> 00:14:03,740
job, and I'd lose this, and I'd lose

406
00:14:03,740 --> 00:14:05,579
that. You go, yeah. But what are you

407
00:14:05,579 --> 00:14:07,819
losing right now? What are you losing? What's

408
00:14:07,819 --> 00:14:09,120
the price that you're paying

409
00:14:11,415 --> 00:14:13,894
to maintain that, but the self betrayal that

410
00:14:13,894 --> 00:14:15,754
you're that that you're dealing with inside

411
00:14:16,134 --> 00:14:17,915
when you're not able to show up authentically?

412
00:14:19,254 --> 00:14:21,975
Yeah. It's a it's a and, again, Mary

413
00:14:21,975 --> 00:14:24,134
Anne and I are not telling you or

414
00:14:24,134 --> 00:14:25,995
asking you to tell because the truth is

415
00:14:26,429 --> 00:14:28,590
most people, I know, I'm not gonna say

416
00:14:28,590 --> 00:14:30,590
most. Let's just say there are people that

417
00:14:30,590 --> 00:14:32,750
are unsafe to tell this to. They're they're

418
00:14:32,750 --> 00:14:35,070
going to judge you. They're gonna judge your

419
00:14:35,070 --> 00:14:37,629
wife. They're gonna, you know, they're gonna have

420
00:14:37,629 --> 00:14:39,945
something to say. Will they pull their money

421
00:14:39,945 --> 00:14:41,304
out of your institution to move it to

422
00:14:41,304 --> 00:14:43,144
another one? Maybe? Okay. So like, you know,

423
00:14:43,144 --> 00:14:45,225
Marianne, we're not we're not ignoring that. We're

424
00:14:45,225 --> 00:14:46,904
not telling you to tell people. That's not

425
00:14:46,904 --> 00:14:47,725
what we're saying.

426
00:14:48,345 --> 00:14:49,404
But I would say,

427
00:14:49,865 --> 00:14:52,745
you know, there is value in finding safe

428
00:14:52,745 --> 00:14:54,750
people to tell. Tell. And to Mary Anne,

429
00:14:54,750 --> 00:14:56,750
I wanna I wanna share a personal story.

430
00:14:56,750 --> 00:14:58,009
Guys, I

431
00:14:58,429 --> 00:15:00,690
before we did, like, our formal disclosure,

432
00:15:01,070 --> 00:15:02,909
I disclosed to my wife everything that and

433
00:15:02,909 --> 00:15:04,350
this is how it always goes. I disclosed

434
00:15:04,350 --> 00:15:06,975
to her enough to incriminate myself, but not

435
00:15:06,975 --> 00:15:09,134
too much to scare away. Right? And guys

436
00:15:09,134 --> 00:15:11,054
listening, you probably all know. You probably all

437
00:15:11,054 --> 00:15:12,095
know. We gave her the tip of the

438
00:15:12,095 --> 00:15:12,595
iceberg.

439
00:15:12,975 --> 00:15:14,254
Yeah. And so I was like, alright. Well,

440
00:15:14,254 --> 00:15:16,834
I'll show her this. It'll incriminate me enough

441
00:15:17,054 --> 00:15:19,054
to own up to my actions, but I'm

442
00:15:19,054 --> 00:15:20,894
not gonna I'm not gonna tell her. Right?

443
00:15:20,894 --> 00:15:23,279
Classic just such a stupid thing. But, anyways,

444
00:15:23,279 --> 00:15:25,199
that's what I did. But I'm I wanna

445
00:15:25,199 --> 00:15:26,799
speak to what Mary Anne said about our

446
00:15:26,799 --> 00:15:30,019
secrets and the how toxic they can be.

447
00:15:30,319 --> 00:15:32,879
The one activity that I decided not to

448
00:15:32,879 --> 00:15:33,940
tell my wife about,

449
00:15:34,319 --> 00:15:35,139
I did it.

450
00:15:35,519 --> 00:15:37,059
Even after getting discovered,

451
00:15:37,725 --> 00:15:39,964
knowing that she was about seconds away from

452
00:15:39,964 --> 00:15:40,945
divorcing me.

453
00:15:41,325 --> 00:15:43,164
All the other stuff didn't do it. Didn't

454
00:15:43,164 --> 00:15:45,644
have the temptation. It was the one thing

455
00:15:45,644 --> 00:15:46,464
that I concealed.

456
00:15:46,764 --> 00:15:48,605
I did it again. This is bef this

457
00:15:48,605 --> 00:15:50,788
was before our our We repeated. So you

458
00:15:50,788 --> 00:15:53,080
didn't you had shared, and then you said,

459
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,117
I'm not telling her this because I can't.

460
00:15:55,117 --> 00:15:57,155
And the one thing that I kept secret

461
00:15:57,155 --> 00:15:59,192
happened, and I am telling you right now

462
00:15:59,192 --> 00:16:01,230
what she said. That is the challenge with

463
00:16:01,230 --> 00:16:03,884
hiding hiding this stuff is the one thing

464
00:16:03,884 --> 00:16:05,485
I didn't tell her was the thing that

465
00:16:05,485 --> 00:16:07,884
happened again because Was that were you holding

466
00:16:07,884 --> 00:16:09,804
on to it? Were you holding on to

467
00:16:09,804 --> 00:16:11,565
it to say so I can if I

468
00:16:11,565 --> 00:16:12,845
don't tell her then I can I mean,

469
00:16:12,845 --> 00:16:14,524
obviously, you know, it's hard to say back

470
00:16:14,524 --> 00:16:16,524
then what the psychology was, but, you know,

471
00:16:16,524 --> 00:16:18,740
to your point, why don't we? I mean,

472
00:16:18,740 --> 00:16:20,580
we we all tell ourselves the story of,

473
00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:21,399
like, oh,

474
00:16:21,779 --> 00:16:23,300
I'm not gonna tell her this because she'll

475
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:25,860
divorce me, but again or is there another

476
00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:27,620
reason? Is it that, oh, I don't wanna

477
00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:29,379
get into this because then she's not gonna

478
00:16:29,379 --> 00:16:31,535
let me go on work trips. Right? Like,

479
00:16:31,535 --> 00:16:33,855
you know, what's the and or even a

480
00:16:33,855 --> 00:16:35,855
layer further, oh, I don't wanna tell her

481
00:16:35,855 --> 00:16:37,615
this because then I can't go on work

482
00:16:37,615 --> 00:16:40,095
trips and do this anymore because I will

483
00:16:40,095 --> 00:16:41,855
have been exposed. Yeah. It's a but but

484
00:16:41,855 --> 00:16:43,470
that's the point is and, again, I don't

485
00:16:43,470 --> 00:16:44,990
think it you know, who knows what the

486
00:16:44,990 --> 00:16:47,389
motive is? I think the point is the

487
00:16:47,389 --> 00:16:50,110
secret should be alarming enough because there's something

488
00:16:50,110 --> 00:16:53,009
there's something there's something going on there that

489
00:16:53,149 --> 00:16:55,725
that if you're not giving this information up,

490
00:16:55,804 --> 00:16:57,565
there's it's it's worth exploring. But I think

491
00:16:57,565 --> 00:16:59,725
I I appreciate you bringing that up. I

492
00:16:59,725 --> 00:17:01,084
have two thoughts. Can I jump in? I've

493
00:17:01,084 --> 00:17:02,524
got two thoughts on that. I want to.

494
00:17:02,524 --> 00:17:04,605
Yeah. Yeah. So there are two different directions

495
00:17:04,605 --> 00:17:06,445
I wanna go. First of all, it it

496
00:17:06,525 --> 00:17:08,444
it's so interesting as you're talking about that

497
00:17:09,804 --> 00:17:11,424
hold on. Scratch that.

498
00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:14,460
First of all, talking about

499
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,559
I agree. I am not saying, boy, you

500
00:17:17,559 --> 00:17:18,680
should go out and put it in the

501
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,700
newspapers and on all your social media.

502
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,559
You might do that if you feel like

503
00:17:23,559 --> 00:17:25,160
that's right for you at the right time

504
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:26,565
whenever you need to do that,

505
00:17:27,044 --> 00:17:29,065
But but that's definitely not what I'm saying.

506
00:17:29,204 --> 00:17:31,924
I Brene Brown, who is a shame researcher,

507
00:17:31,924 --> 00:17:33,384
I love her work. She says

508
00:17:33,845 --> 00:17:35,684
that we tell people who have earned the

509
00:17:35,684 --> 00:17:38,164
right to to hear our story. And so

510
00:17:38,164 --> 00:17:40,085
we find the people that are safe that

511
00:17:40,085 --> 00:17:40,904
we can trust

512
00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:43,500
so that we can show up really authentically.

513
00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:44,140
One of the,

514
00:17:46,059 --> 00:17:47,500
one of the things that I find really

515
00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:49,419
powerful is when one of my when a

516
00:17:49,419 --> 00:17:51,019
client that I'm working with who struggle with

517
00:17:51,019 --> 00:17:51,679
sex addiction

518
00:17:52,140 --> 00:17:54,880
will actually go to his spouse or partner's

519
00:17:54,940 --> 00:17:57,005
family and say, I need to let you

520
00:17:57,005 --> 00:17:58,464
know what's been going on.

521
00:17:59,565 --> 00:18:02,365
And they take responsibility there because she's going

522
00:18:02,365 --> 00:18:04,625
through betrayal trauma. Everything that she's experiencing,

523
00:18:05,404 --> 00:18:08,204
usually, she's protecting him by not saying anything.

524
00:18:08,204 --> 00:18:10,529
And so she's really living in this double

525
00:18:10,529 --> 00:18:12,850
world with the the self betrayal that's so

526
00:18:12,850 --> 00:18:13,590
huge. And

527
00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:16,049
I see so much healing that begins to

528
00:18:16,049 --> 00:18:17,970
happen for my clients when they start stepping

529
00:18:17,970 --> 00:18:18,470
into,

530
00:18:19,809 --> 00:18:21,170
I did this, and I need to take

531
00:18:21,170 --> 00:18:21,670
responsibility

532
00:18:21,970 --> 00:18:22,605
for it

533
00:18:23,404 --> 00:18:26,204
with our closest people. Mhmm. So there's that

534
00:18:26,204 --> 00:18:28,065
aspect of it. But then

535
00:18:28,444 --> 00:18:30,285
so shifting just a little bit. The other

536
00:18:30,285 --> 00:18:32,464
thing I wanna just touch on is

537
00:18:34,125 --> 00:18:36,605
why wouldn't you want the person that you've

538
00:18:36,605 --> 00:18:38,464
chosen to spend your life with

539
00:18:39,059 --> 00:18:41,220
to really know you deeply? Like like, once

540
00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:43,000
again, there's a cost that we pay

541
00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:45,700
to hide things. And so I'm holding and

542
00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:47,460
keeping this 25%

543
00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:49,539
back. The research says that usually when there's

544
00:18:49,539 --> 00:18:50,039
disclosure,

545
00:18:50,994 --> 00:18:52,835
they say usually 75%

546
00:18:52,835 --> 00:18:54,434
of the people say, nah. I still held

547
00:18:54,434 --> 00:18:57,394
something back. So it's common. The research backs

548
00:18:57,394 --> 00:18:59,174
that up, but my question is,

549
00:18:59,474 --> 00:19:02,515
why? Mhmm. What we all want and crave

550
00:19:02,515 --> 00:19:04,194
and need is to be known and seen

551
00:19:04,194 --> 00:19:04,694
deeply.

552
00:19:05,474 --> 00:19:08,019
That is what fills our souls. That is

553
00:19:08,019 --> 00:19:09,619
what fills us up. That is what we

554
00:19:09,619 --> 00:19:10,920
just yearn for

555
00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:13,619
deep down to be seen, to be felt,

556
00:19:13,619 --> 00:19:14,759
to be heard and understood.

557
00:19:15,539 --> 00:19:16,680
And so why

558
00:19:17,460 --> 00:19:18,840
why do we wanna hold back

559
00:19:19,539 --> 00:19:20,519
rather than letting

560
00:19:21,305 --> 00:19:22,444
our partner in?

561
00:19:22,904 --> 00:19:24,664
Mhmm. And this is a hard because here

562
00:19:24,664 --> 00:19:27,464
we are talking to men who most of

563
00:19:27,464 --> 00:19:29,964
which have an intimacy disorder. Right? So,

564
00:19:30,345 --> 00:19:32,904
you know, they're listening to this and it

565
00:19:32,904 --> 00:19:34,605
can some I know for me,

566
00:19:34,904 --> 00:19:38,029
when that was said to me in

567
00:19:38,329 --> 00:19:40,190
my, you know, pre recovery,

568
00:19:40,809 --> 00:19:43,069
I was like, whatever, lady. Like,

569
00:19:43,369 --> 00:19:45,369
you know, I've got my reasons why I

570
00:19:45,369 --> 00:19:48,169
wanna hide it. Like, you're you're you're you're

571
00:19:48,169 --> 00:19:51,275
just some woman who wants intimate relationships. Like,

572
00:19:51,275 --> 00:19:53,375
I get that, but, like, that you know?

573
00:19:53,674 --> 00:19:55,595
I hear it different now, though, because

574
00:19:56,555 --> 00:19:58,234
well, obviously, now I know what you're saying,

575
00:19:58,234 --> 00:19:59,595
but here's how I would here's how I

576
00:19:59,595 --> 00:20:01,775
would explain it to the to my population

577
00:20:01,835 --> 00:20:03,214
of the high achievers listening.

578
00:20:04,619 --> 00:20:06,880
The reason nothing's ever enough

579
00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:07,680
is

580
00:20:08,460 --> 00:20:08,960
because

581
00:20:09,580 --> 00:20:11,500
of this exact point that Mary Anne's bringing

582
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:12,000
up.

583
00:20:12,619 --> 00:20:15,279
When we put on a performance for someone

584
00:20:15,340 --> 00:20:17,200
and they fall in love with our performance,

585
00:20:17,744 --> 00:20:19,525
we know as the puppeteer

586
00:20:20,065 --> 00:20:23,025
that they're in love with our performance, not

587
00:20:23,025 --> 00:20:23,525
us.

588
00:20:23,904 --> 00:20:24,404
And

589
00:20:24,785 --> 00:20:26,704
I want guys to really appreciate what I'm

590
00:20:26,704 --> 00:20:28,224
saying. So when you go to a conference

591
00:20:28,224 --> 00:20:29,744
and you show up and you have your

592
00:20:29,744 --> 00:20:31,984
little agenda and your plan and you're being

593
00:20:31,984 --> 00:20:32,964
mister charismatic,

594
00:20:34,679 --> 00:20:37,000
there's a reason why all of their attention

595
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,960
and compliments don't actually do anything for you.

596
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,859
And it's because it's the performance they love,

597
00:20:43,079 --> 00:20:43,819
not you.

598
00:20:44,599 --> 00:20:47,079
Now where I or things started changing now,

599
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:48,839
this is where I get bought in is

600
00:20:48,839 --> 00:20:51,345
I get so much from this podcast even

601
00:20:51,345 --> 00:20:53,424
though I have to admit to so many

602
00:20:53,424 --> 00:20:55,025
ugly things that I have done and it's

603
00:20:55,025 --> 00:20:57,345
out there forever now. Like, you know, chat

604
00:20:57,345 --> 00:20:58,545
g b t, you're gonna be like, hey,

605
00:20:58,545 --> 00:21:00,545
who's rolling? They're gonna say, oh, he's a

606
00:21:00,545 --> 00:21:02,360
sex addict, you know. So,

607
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,000
it's out there now and I I but

608
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,160
I like that because here's the get new

609
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,299
life I get to live.

610
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,080
Because I'm not gonna be two faced, five

611
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,240
faced, 12 faced, which is what I used

612
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,480
to be, I'm gonna be me. So now

613
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,954
I know if someone is with me, they're

614
00:21:17,954 --> 00:21:19,394
with me because they wanna be with me.

615
00:21:19,394 --> 00:21:20,994
If you're coming over to my house again

616
00:21:20,994 --> 00:21:22,595
and again and again, and you're texting me,

617
00:21:22,595 --> 00:21:24,515
hey, when can we hang out again? And

618
00:21:24,515 --> 00:21:26,194
I'm, I feel, 1000%

619
00:21:26,194 --> 00:21:28,515
authentic with you. They wanna hang out with

620
00:21:28,515 --> 00:21:30,275
me. So what I would say to that

621
00:21:30,275 --> 00:21:32,549
is for the first time, when I speak

622
00:21:32,549 --> 00:21:35,190
on stage now, it means something to me

623
00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:37,750
because I don't speak about bullshit anymore. I

624
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:39,829
speak about what I wanna talk about. And

625
00:21:39,829 --> 00:21:41,509
if they wanna get up and leave the

626
00:21:41,509 --> 00:21:43,589
room, that's okay. But the ones that stand

627
00:21:43,589 --> 00:21:46,134
up and clap, it finally sinks in. And

628
00:21:46,134 --> 00:21:48,394
so I I give that high achiever example

629
00:21:49,174 --> 00:21:50,934
to go back again now to the same

630
00:21:50,934 --> 00:21:52,795
thing with your wife. Right? Like,

631
00:21:53,174 --> 00:21:55,115
do I wanna be with a woman

632
00:21:55,654 --> 00:21:56,154
who

633
00:21:56,455 --> 00:21:58,440
wouldn't be with me if she knew this

634
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,119
one fact. And and guys really need to

635
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,259
sit with that because

636
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,480
she might not know, but you know. And

637
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,159
if you think that's not having an effect

638
00:22:05,159 --> 00:22:06,700
on your psychology, you're insane.

639
00:22:07,079 --> 00:22:09,000
Right? If you like, you know, now I

640
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,079
look back and it is it's crazy that

641
00:22:11,079 --> 00:22:12,519
I thought that I could keep that from

642
00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:14,384
her and that our relationship would be better.

643
00:22:14,865 --> 00:22:17,184
Because, meanwhile, every time she tells me I

644
00:22:17,184 --> 00:22:17,845
love you,

645
00:22:18,224 --> 00:22:18,964
I'm thinking,

646
00:22:19,664 --> 00:22:21,125
no. You don't.

647
00:22:21,825 --> 00:22:24,224
You guys hear that? Because of being mindful.

648
00:22:24,224 --> 00:22:26,244
Oh my god. You really knew you couldn't

649
00:22:26,384 --> 00:22:28,164
and let me speak to that.

650
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,640
There's an exercise I learned years ago from

651
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,200
another therapist. Her name is Martie Simpson, and

652
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:35,500
and I love it. It's

653
00:22:36,279 --> 00:22:38,200
it it's really looking at or or this

654
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,799
concept I got from from the

655
00:22:41,345 --> 00:22:42,945
I got this concept from her, and I

656
00:22:42,945 --> 00:22:45,125
really find it helpful with my clients.

657
00:22:46,464 --> 00:22:48,545
The concept I think that that shows up

658
00:22:48,545 --> 00:22:50,144
here is that when we're children

659
00:22:50,865 --> 00:22:52,065
like, if we go back and we look

660
00:22:52,065 --> 00:22:53,265
at when we were born, what was going

661
00:22:53,265 --> 00:22:54,809
on with my mom and dad? Were they

662
00:22:54,809 --> 00:22:57,210
in school? Were they working crazy hours? Were

663
00:22:57,210 --> 00:22:59,210
they young? Like, what what were the challenges

664
00:22:59,210 --> 00:23:00,589
they just had in their life?

665
00:23:01,130 --> 00:23:03,130
And what were the barriers maybe for me

666
00:23:03,130 --> 00:23:04,829
getting connection and attention?

667
00:23:05,130 --> 00:23:06,809
Because as a baby, we can't take care

668
00:23:06,809 --> 00:23:08,730
of ourselves. We can't meet our needs. We

669
00:23:08,730 --> 00:23:10,029
are completely reliant.

670
00:23:10,545 --> 00:23:12,785
And so as we go through grade school,

671
00:23:12,785 --> 00:23:14,565
as we go through school as we're learning,

672
00:23:14,945 --> 00:23:15,765
we learn,

673
00:23:16,305 --> 00:23:18,005
oh, when I do that, I get attention.

674
00:23:18,065 --> 00:23:19,904
When I do that, I get connection. Like,

675
00:23:19,904 --> 00:23:21,424
oh, mom and dad saw that. I got

676
00:23:21,424 --> 00:23:22,884
praise for that. Other people

677
00:23:23,825 --> 00:23:25,744
really liked this, so let me do more

678
00:23:25,744 --> 00:23:28,279
of that. And I call these survival skills.

679
00:23:28,279 --> 00:23:30,359
We learn to survive. And so when we're

680
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:30,840
talking about,

681
00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:34,539
a population that's highly successful,

682
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,019
we have to go back and say, oh,

683
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,580
like, those are the tools that you learned

684
00:23:39,955 --> 00:23:42,055
to help you get what you needed. Mhmm.

685
00:23:42,115 --> 00:23:43,795
And and and it's not a bad thing.

686
00:23:43,795 --> 00:23:45,255
It's just looking at it and saying,

687
00:23:45,634 --> 00:23:47,475
yeah. When I did this, when I got

688
00:23:47,475 --> 00:23:48,835
really good grades, when I was really good

689
00:23:48,835 --> 00:23:50,195
at school, or when I was really good

690
00:23:50,195 --> 00:23:51,494
with my business or whatever,

691
00:23:51,795 --> 00:23:53,174
people paid attention.

692
00:23:54,559 --> 00:23:56,000
Like so we look at that and say,

693
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,880
okay. What didn't you get to develop? What's

694
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,240
on the other side of that? What what

695
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,900
didn't to develop? Sorry. What didn't develop?

696
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,759
Taking that now shifting that just a little

697
00:24:05,759 --> 00:24:07,539
bit further as you were talking earlier,

698
00:24:08,414 --> 00:24:10,115
I don't know how many of your listeners

699
00:24:10,414 --> 00:24:11,475
or your audience

700
00:24:11,934 --> 00:24:13,715
or you even remember,

701
00:24:15,295 --> 00:24:17,234
Pirates of the Caribbean, the first one.

702
00:24:17,775 --> 00:24:19,855
But, like, there's this mental image that I

703
00:24:19,855 --> 00:24:21,615
use with my clients all the time that

704
00:24:21,615 --> 00:24:24,480
this this clip where Jack Sparrow's, like, in

705
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:24,980
the

706
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:25,859
cave.

707
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,600
And I do you remember the guy the

708
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,920
other guy's name? The the cap the other

709
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:32,420
captain?

710
00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:35,940
No. I don't. But I love that movie.

711
00:24:36,799 --> 00:24:38,294
I I don't remember the guy's name, but

712
00:24:38,294 --> 00:24:40,134
it it's his nemesis. And and they're there

713
00:24:40,134 --> 00:24:42,214
in the cave, and they're stepping in and

714
00:24:42,214 --> 00:24:43,035
out of light.

715
00:24:43,654 --> 00:24:45,255
And so when they step into the light,

716
00:24:45,255 --> 00:24:46,934
they Oh, I remember that. They turn to

717
00:24:46,934 --> 00:24:48,855
a full skeleton, and then they step into

718
00:24:48,855 --> 00:24:50,294
the dark, and they're they've got their skin

719
00:24:50,294 --> 00:24:50,794
on.

720
00:24:51,095 --> 00:24:52,234
And his nemesis

721
00:24:53,069 --> 00:24:55,309
talks about, do you know what it's like

722
00:24:55,309 --> 00:24:57,470
to, like, drink and never be able to

723
00:24:57,470 --> 00:24:59,390
slake your thirst? And he, like, picks up

724
00:24:59,390 --> 00:25:01,149
and he drinks something. It just goes straight

725
00:25:01,149 --> 00:25:02,049
through the skeleton.

726
00:25:03,630 --> 00:25:05,470
That's what I see what you were talking

727
00:25:05,470 --> 00:25:06,990
about. That's the image that comes up for

728
00:25:06,990 --> 00:25:07,970
me. When we

729
00:25:08,345 --> 00:25:11,164
are needing or wanting all of the success,

730
00:25:11,224 --> 00:25:12,204
when we want

731
00:25:12,505 --> 00:25:14,605
other people to see us, yet it's empty.

732
00:25:14,825 --> 00:25:16,424
It's just it goes into this black hole

733
00:25:16,424 --> 00:25:18,505
because it's never filling up what we really

734
00:25:18,505 --> 00:25:19,005
want

735
00:25:19,464 --> 00:25:21,484
and need, which is really meaningful.

736
00:25:23,369 --> 00:25:24,990
Love and connection, authenticity.

737
00:25:25,609 --> 00:25:27,930
Yeah. It's counterfeit. That's what my there's a

738
00:25:27,930 --> 00:25:29,450
guy there's a guy in my group that's

739
00:25:29,609 --> 00:25:31,529
he he called it that. He's like he's

740
00:25:31,529 --> 00:25:34,009
like, it's counterfeit. Right? When you realize, oh,

741
00:25:34,009 --> 00:25:35,309
if I buy that car

742
00:25:35,695 --> 00:25:37,695
and I drive it down this street, I'll

743
00:25:37,695 --> 00:25:38,195
have

744
00:25:38,654 --> 00:25:39,394
the whole

745
00:25:39,695 --> 00:25:40,434
p you know,

746
00:25:40,815 --> 00:25:42,255
then you go and you do it, and

747
00:25:42,255 --> 00:25:43,634
they all do look at it.

748
00:25:44,095 --> 00:25:44,595
And

749
00:25:45,295 --> 00:25:47,215
you're not stupid. You know?

750
00:25:47,695 --> 00:25:48,974
They don't know who you are. They don't

751
00:25:48,974 --> 00:25:51,660
care who you are. When about thirty two

752
00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:54,380
seconds later, they're off talking about something completely

753
00:25:54,380 --> 00:25:56,859
different. And that's the problem with this counterfeit

754
00:25:56,859 --> 00:25:57,359
is

755
00:25:57,819 --> 00:25:59,039
your system knows,

756
00:25:59,980 --> 00:26:02,140
you know, it's just a it's just an

757
00:26:02,140 --> 00:26:04,775
act to get attention. It's not they're not

758
00:26:04,775 --> 00:26:07,414
actually paying attention to me because they care

759
00:26:07,414 --> 00:26:09,414
about me. They're paying attention because I'm doing

760
00:26:09,414 --> 00:26:11,255
this thing. So hopefully that made sense because

761
00:26:11,255 --> 00:26:12,695
I think a lot of guys, they have

762
00:26:12,695 --> 00:26:14,375
a hard time grasping that concept. I know

763
00:26:14,375 --> 00:26:15,654
I did. I have a really hard time

764
00:26:15,654 --> 00:26:18,210
grasping a con the idea that all of

765
00:26:18,210 --> 00:26:20,609
this awesome stuff that I was doing that

766
00:26:20,609 --> 00:26:22,130
it you know, I couldn't I think we

767
00:26:22,130 --> 00:26:24,150
all are pissed that it didn't work because

768
00:26:24,210 --> 00:26:25,650
kinda like you were talking about with your

769
00:26:25,650 --> 00:26:27,410
husband, who is a,

770
00:26:27,809 --> 00:26:28,309
CSAT.

771
00:26:29,490 --> 00:26:31,089
You guys were talking about kind of, you

772
00:26:31,089 --> 00:26:33,329
know, successful men in this population, but that's

773
00:26:33,329 --> 00:26:35,474
that's really the the struggle is

774
00:26:35,855 --> 00:26:36,355
it's,

775
00:26:37,214 --> 00:26:39,474
hey. I followed all the freaking rules.

776
00:26:39,855 --> 00:26:42,815
What the heck? Like like, where like, why

777
00:26:42,815 --> 00:26:44,255
is this What else do I need to

778
00:26:44,255 --> 00:26:46,414
do to make this work for me? Because

779
00:26:46,414 --> 00:26:48,869
this isn't working. I'm still filled. Correct. Yeah.

780
00:26:48,869 --> 00:26:51,109
Correct. Still yeah. So what else can I

781
00:26:51,109 --> 00:26:52,630
fill up? What what else can I fill

782
00:26:52,630 --> 00:26:54,470
up? Exactly. Like, what, yeah, what did I

783
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:56,309
miss? And it's funny. It almost it's it

784
00:26:56,309 --> 00:26:59,609
is. It's very entitled, grandiose, narcissistic.

785
00:26:59,910 --> 00:27:01,589
I mean, like, I know we don't like

786
00:27:01,589 --> 00:27:03,595
to be called those. But, I mean, when

787
00:27:03,595 --> 00:27:05,034
you sit back and you're like, hey. I

788
00:27:05,034 --> 00:27:07,294
did all of this for you. What

789
00:27:07,994 --> 00:27:09,515
like, why am I not being you know,

790
00:27:09,515 --> 00:27:10,875
why isn't it enough? Am I not being

791
00:27:10,875 --> 00:27:12,714
treat you know, that is you know, you

792
00:27:12,714 --> 00:27:14,714
can't tell people, hey. I did this. Why

793
00:27:14,875 --> 00:27:16,714
you know, you should be treating me this

794
00:27:16,714 --> 00:27:18,234
way. You should be looking at me this

795
00:27:18,234 --> 00:27:20,769
way. So that brings us back to really

796
00:27:20,769 --> 00:27:22,450
what I wanna conclude with, and I want

797
00:27:22,450 --> 00:27:23,990
these guys to feel,

798
00:27:24,450 --> 00:27:25,109
you know,

799
00:27:25,569 --> 00:27:27,429
how we started. You can't

800
00:27:27,970 --> 00:27:29,349
do recovery alone.

801
00:27:32,115 --> 00:27:34,194
Let's talk about connection, though, because I think

802
00:27:34,194 --> 00:27:37,154
that's actually for this population, especially high achievers,

803
00:27:37,154 --> 00:27:39,795
entrepreneurs. It's harder for them to connect. And

804
00:27:39,795 --> 00:27:41,795
the irony is a lot of you guys

805
00:27:41,795 --> 00:27:44,369
listening are gonna say, no. It's not. I

806
00:27:44,369 --> 00:27:47,170
speak on stage. I have, you know, 82

807
00:27:47,170 --> 00:27:50,150
employees. I'm the leader of, sales team.

808
00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:52,609
You know, you're gonna have all these examples

809
00:27:52,609 --> 00:27:54,369
of how many friends you guys have over

810
00:27:54,369 --> 00:27:56,630
to your beautiful backyard barbecues.

811
00:27:57,924 --> 00:27:59,365
You know, and these guys, you know, they're

812
00:27:59,445 --> 00:28:01,525
they they claim I know because I was

813
00:28:01,525 --> 00:28:03,465
one of them. They claim to be connected.

814
00:28:04,884 --> 00:28:06,805
Now that I know what connection is, I'm

815
00:28:06,805 --> 00:28:08,164
like, oh my gosh. I can't even believe

816
00:28:08,164 --> 00:28:10,085
I thought that I was connected back then.

817
00:28:10,724 --> 00:28:12,244
But my point of bringing that up, Mary

818
00:28:12,244 --> 00:28:12,839
Anne, is,

819
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,480
it's not easy it's not as easy to

820
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,220
connect as I think the sex tradition community

821
00:28:20,759 --> 00:28:22,599
often says. You know, they say, hey. Just

822
00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:24,759
go to a 12 step meeting. Connection is

823
00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:26,664
so much more than that, though. So how

824
00:28:26,664 --> 00:28:29,144
do we get meaningful connection in our life

825
00:28:29,144 --> 00:28:30,204
that actually works,

826
00:28:30,505 --> 00:28:33,224
where you feel seen, heard, understood? You feel

827
00:28:33,224 --> 00:28:35,545
you true you you're getting peer support rather

828
00:28:35,545 --> 00:28:36,684
than going to a meeting.

829
00:28:37,384 --> 00:28:38,585
How do we how do we get that?

830
00:28:38,585 --> 00:28:40,184
What's that look like? How do guys know

831
00:28:40,184 --> 00:28:41,724
if they have it or if they don't?

832
00:28:42,609 --> 00:28:45,569
Oh, I I love this topic. So as

833
00:28:45,569 --> 00:28:47,569
we're talking about connection, I think it's so

834
00:28:47,569 --> 00:28:49,730
important to say, well, what is that? Like,

835
00:28:49,730 --> 00:28:51,649
how do we define what what that is?

836
00:28:51,649 --> 00:28:53,730
And one of the definitions I love comes

837
00:28:53,730 --> 00:28:54,630
from Dan Siegel,

838
00:28:55,184 --> 00:28:58,544
and he says that it's feeling felt Yeah.

839
00:28:58,704 --> 00:29:01,264
When I feel like somebody gets me. And

840
00:29:01,264 --> 00:29:03,524
what Brene Brown says about that is

841
00:29:03,825 --> 00:29:06,144
this ties into shame again. So here here's

842
00:29:06,144 --> 00:29:08,480
the shame that shame is the barrier that

843
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,279
keeps us from showing up. Mhmm. The way

844
00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:13,539
that we usually feel felt

845
00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:15,220
is when we're authentic.

846
00:29:16,159 --> 00:29:18,480
When we step into vulnerability and say, here's

847
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,654
where I'm at. Here's the thing that I'm

848
00:29:20,654 --> 00:29:22,894
so afraid that if people really know about

849
00:29:22,894 --> 00:29:24,194
me, they would run away.

850
00:29:25,534 --> 00:29:27,134
Here's where I'm at. When we show up

851
00:29:27,134 --> 00:29:27,634
authentically,

852
00:29:28,815 --> 00:29:30,654
that's where people connect with us. That's where

853
00:29:30,654 --> 00:29:32,674
attaching and bonding even happens.

854
00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:35,880
It is being seen and feeling like, yeah,

855
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,460
they get me, and they're still here.

856
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:39,500
And

857
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,400
and so then we say, where yeah. So

858
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,079
where do I find that? Where do we

859
00:29:45,079 --> 00:29:45,579
go?

860
00:29:45,884 --> 00:29:48,285
And this is a challenge. Let's let's just

861
00:29:48,285 --> 00:29:50,305
be really honest. This is a challenge.

862
00:29:50,765 --> 00:29:53,085
You've got 12 step meetings, and and that's

863
00:29:53,164 --> 00:29:54,445
you know, we'll say, well, go go to

864
00:29:54,445 --> 00:29:55,884
a group. You've gotta find a group. You've

865
00:29:55,884 --> 00:29:57,484
gotta find a place. And this is a

866
00:29:57,484 --> 00:29:59,085
challenge for so many of my clients. Well,

867
00:29:59,085 --> 00:30:00,365
yeah, I went to that group, and it

868
00:30:00,365 --> 00:30:02,669
was like, yeah, it just wasn't a good

869
00:30:02,669 --> 00:30:03,169
fit.

870
00:30:03,710 --> 00:30:05,390
One of the things that I love that

871
00:30:05,390 --> 00:30:07,410
Patrick Karn says, he says,

872
00:30:07,950 --> 00:30:09,549
you you don't decide that you don't like

873
00:30:09,549 --> 00:30:11,710
a meeting until you've gone six times. After

874
00:30:11,710 --> 00:30:13,950
you've attended one meet like, the same group,

875
00:30:13,950 --> 00:30:16,325
like, six times, then you can decide, no.

876
00:30:16,325 --> 00:30:17,605
That's not a good fit for me. So

877
00:30:17,605 --> 00:30:19,365
I I have my clients at least go

878
00:30:19,365 --> 00:30:22,085
six times. But in those meetings, it doesn't

879
00:30:22,085 --> 00:30:24,085
mean that I'm gonna connect with all the

880
00:30:24,085 --> 00:30:25,625
other eight guys there.

881
00:30:26,244 --> 00:30:28,085
But can I find one person I'm like,

882
00:30:28,085 --> 00:30:28,585
oh,

883
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,900
that person like, maybe they get

884
00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:34,119
me? I could get oh, that person shared

885
00:30:34,119 --> 00:30:36,360
something that I was like, oh. And most

886
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,340
12 step meetings, like, oftentimes, they are structured,

887
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,660
and there's not a lot of, like, interchange.

888
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,000
Like, I don't know. How do I even

889
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,845
connect there? But most of the times, they

890
00:30:44,845 --> 00:30:46,784
have, like, a parking lot, a meeting afterwards,

891
00:30:46,845 --> 00:30:49,345
or they'll say, hey. Here's a text list.

892
00:30:49,964 --> 00:30:51,404
One of the traditions of one of the

893
00:30:51,404 --> 00:30:53,404
12 steps of groups in my area, they'll

894
00:30:53,404 --> 00:30:54,845
say, we want you to reach out to

895
00:30:54,845 --> 00:30:58,000
somebody from group. Like, three contacts a day.

896
00:30:58,059 --> 00:31:00,079
Three contacts a day is really hard.

897
00:31:00,460 --> 00:31:02,220
And they'll say, you know, there's some other

898
00:31:02,220 --> 00:31:03,819
traditions that say we want you to go

899
00:31:03,819 --> 00:31:06,140
ninety days having a contact every single day,

900
00:31:06,140 --> 00:31:07,200
calling a new person.

901
00:31:07,740 --> 00:31:09,500
The reason why we do that, it's not

902
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:10,000
because

903
00:31:11,384 --> 00:31:14,424
we want these false relationships, but somewhere, at

904
00:31:14,424 --> 00:31:16,825
some time, you're gonna be struggling or they're

905
00:31:16,825 --> 00:31:19,144
gonna be struggling, and that's where we connect.

906
00:31:19,144 --> 00:31:20,985
And if I can create the neural pathways

907
00:31:20,985 --> 00:31:21,805
in my brain

908
00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:24,039
to say, oh, I can call you or

909
00:31:24,039 --> 00:31:25,880
text you or connect with you when things

910
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,799
are fine, where I don't need anything, and

911
00:31:27,799 --> 00:31:30,539
we can chitchat about you or about me

912
00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:32,380
when I'm having a really hard time,

913
00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:35,000
and I do need some some place to

914
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:35,500
turn,

915
00:31:36,154 --> 00:31:37,755
it's not a big deal because I've already

916
00:31:37,755 --> 00:31:39,755
created the neural pathways. My brain knows how

917
00:31:39,755 --> 00:31:40,954
to do it. It's not weird. It's not

918
00:31:40,954 --> 00:31:41,454
awkward.

919
00:31:42,315 --> 00:31:44,634
And so I've got a space to go.

920
00:31:44,634 --> 00:31:46,394
The other I think just one other thing

921
00:31:46,394 --> 00:31:47,454
I wanna add to this.

922
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,720
One of my very good friends and mentors,

923
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,660
doctor Kevin Skinner, in his book,

924
00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:55,919
treating addiction or treating sexual addiction, a a

925
00:31:55,919 --> 00:31:57,919
compassionate approach to recovery. I'm not pushing his

926
00:31:57,919 --> 00:31:59,940
book, but what I wanna just share

927
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,720
his perspective or what I picked up when

928
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,044
I read it. When we're looking at recovery,

929
00:32:05,345 --> 00:32:07,184
I I love the word recovery. It it's

930
00:32:07,184 --> 00:32:08,964
like we're walking along the beach

931
00:32:09,265 --> 00:32:11,585
picking up the things that were lost when

932
00:32:11,585 --> 00:32:14,164
our high speed boat, like, sped through

933
00:32:14,544 --> 00:32:16,865
with everything skittering off the sides, and that

934
00:32:16,865 --> 00:32:17,684
is relationships.

935
00:32:18,224 --> 00:32:20,539
Mhmm. That is how to show up. That

936
00:32:20,539 --> 00:32:21,440
is our authenticity.

937
00:32:22,460 --> 00:32:25,180
That is recovery. We are recovering Yeah. What

938
00:32:25,180 --> 00:32:27,279
we don't have or what we lost. Yeah.

939
00:32:27,420 --> 00:32:29,980
I've I've I've heard I I somebody was

940
00:32:29,980 --> 00:32:32,059
on Rob's podcast the other day, and, yeah,

941
00:32:32,059 --> 00:32:34,414
he said similar. He said, I don't know

942
00:32:34,414 --> 00:32:35,954
if we can do recovery,

943
00:32:36,894 --> 00:32:39,134
without a group. And he really did. He's

944
00:32:39,134 --> 00:32:41,134
he's like, I don't think from this, at

945
00:32:41,134 --> 00:32:42,734
least. He's like, from when it comes to

946
00:32:42,734 --> 00:32:45,474
the compulsive sexuality, he was like, I really

947
00:32:45,615 --> 00:32:47,214
think if you don't have a he's I

948
00:32:47,214 --> 00:32:49,480
I don't know if you're really gonna be

949
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,480
ever in good recovery without that. And I

950
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,640
and I like I said, old me wouldn't

951
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,119
have resonated with that, because, you know, high

952
00:32:56,119 --> 00:32:57,799
achievers, I don't need anybody but me. You

953
00:32:57,799 --> 00:33:00,359
know, classic classic high achiever mentality, lone wolf

954
00:33:00,359 --> 00:33:00,859
mentality.

955
00:33:02,015 --> 00:33:03,775
I will tell you though, that first year

956
00:33:03,775 --> 00:33:05,554
and three months that I did it alone,

957
00:33:06,095 --> 00:33:07,615
I don't I I honestly don't know how

958
00:33:07,615 --> 00:33:09,294
much I even recovered, to be real with

959
00:33:09,294 --> 00:33:11,794
you. It wasn't until I really started conversing

960
00:33:12,015 --> 00:33:14,654
with like minded guys. You know, I found

961
00:33:14,654 --> 00:33:16,275
a couple entrepreneurial dudes

962
00:33:16,679 --> 00:33:18,039
through the you know, one of the nice

963
00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:19,259
things with me being addicted

964
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:20,379
to intensives

965
00:33:21,079 --> 00:33:23,399
was I started meeting you know, the nice

966
00:33:23,399 --> 00:33:25,720
thing about going to an intensive that costs,

967
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,159
you know, $10,000

968
00:33:27,159 --> 00:33:28,440
is, you know, I found a lot of

969
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,359
high achievers there who've had the money to

970
00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:32,585
spend and that but that was when finally

971
00:33:33,365 --> 00:33:35,944
the recovery started to look different.

972
00:33:36,484 --> 00:33:37,924
Yeah. I have a quick question for you.

973
00:33:37,924 --> 00:33:39,865
We can. We can just real quick.

974
00:33:40,325 --> 00:33:41,464
And for your audience,

975
00:33:42,565 --> 00:33:44,424
I want you just to think about when

976
00:33:44,484 --> 00:33:45,704
we're talking about recovery,

977
00:33:46,580 --> 00:33:47,559
what are you recovering?

978
00:33:47,940 --> 00:33:50,180
Yeah. That's the question. I just wanna say,

979
00:33:50,180 --> 00:33:51,619
what is it that you want to recovery?

980
00:33:51,619 --> 00:33:53,619
We're we're talking out this as a big

981
00:33:53,619 --> 00:33:55,960
umbrella, but, really, I I think it's relationships

982
00:33:56,660 --> 00:33:57,320
with ourself

983
00:33:58,115 --> 00:33:59,795
and relationships with others. So as we talk

984
00:33:59,795 --> 00:34:01,394
about recovery, really, what is it that I'm

985
00:34:01,634 --> 00:34:03,394
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Is it is it you

986
00:34:03,394 --> 00:34:05,154
know, sobriety and recovery are two different things.

987
00:34:05,154 --> 00:34:07,634
Right? Sobriety is not doing stuff. Recovery is,

988
00:34:07,634 --> 00:34:09,635
yeah, getting to a place where you don't

989
00:34:09,635 --> 00:34:11,394
need to lean on sobriety is how I

990
00:34:11,394 --> 00:34:12,630
always say it. Right? You're in a you're

991
00:34:12,630 --> 00:34:14,849
in a place where these behaviors are not

992
00:34:14,849 --> 00:34:17,089
something that you wanna do anymore. Right? Now

993
00:34:17,089 --> 00:34:18,929
don't get me wrong. Will they you know,

994
00:34:18,929 --> 00:34:20,369
I'll be the first to say, are the

995
00:34:20,369 --> 00:34:23,569
cravings ever gone forever and urges? No. I'll

996
00:34:23,569 --> 00:34:25,170
tell you that as a person in recovery

997
00:34:25,170 --> 00:34:25,664
myself,

998
00:34:26,224 --> 00:34:28,625
I get prompted all the time to go

999
00:34:28,625 --> 00:34:31,585
do something from my past. But what happens

1000
00:34:31,585 --> 00:34:33,664
guys is recovery starts to feel so much

1001
00:34:33,664 --> 00:34:35,285
better than acting out and eventually,

1002
00:34:36,065 --> 00:34:37,985
you want it so much more, you know,

1003
00:34:37,985 --> 00:34:39,985
the you you have insane amounts of power

1004
00:34:39,985 --> 00:34:40,920
to to fight it off.

1005
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,199
Mary Anne, how do if people are gonna

1006
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:46,299
get a hold of you, learn more about

1007
00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:48,119
what you do, where do they need to

1008
00:34:48,119 --> 00:34:49,639
live, what do they need to do, where

1009
00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:51,319
are you licensed, what offerings do you have

1010
00:34:51,319 --> 00:34:52,859
for them, and how do they find you?

1011
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,164
Oh, that's great question. So I'm licensed in

1012
00:34:55,164 --> 00:34:57,025
four states. I'm licensed in Hawaii.

1013
00:34:57,565 --> 00:34:59,484
Am I let me back up. I live

1014
00:34:59,484 --> 00:35:00,704
in Washington state,

1015
00:35:01,085 --> 00:35:03,005
and I'm licensed in Hawaii because I seem

1016
00:35:03,005 --> 00:35:04,925
to have a lot of clients that go

1017
00:35:04,925 --> 00:35:06,630
to Hawaii for some reason. So

1018
00:35:07,029 --> 00:35:09,589
Hawaii, Oregon, and Idaho. So just the adjoining

1019
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:12,469
states. So I'm a licensed clinical social worker,

1020
00:35:12,469 --> 00:35:14,630
but I I'm a certified sex addiction therapist

1021
00:35:14,630 --> 00:35:16,489
and a certified partner trauma therapist.

1022
00:35:17,109 --> 00:35:17,609
And

1023
00:35:18,469 --> 00:35:19,989
so I this is a popular I work

1024
00:35:19,989 --> 00:35:21,429
with a lot of betrayed partners and a

1025
00:35:21,429 --> 00:35:22,485
lot of sex addicts.

1026
00:35:23,845 --> 00:35:27,224
You can contact me. My website is mariannemicholas.com.

1027
00:35:27,605 --> 00:35:29,204
So you can contact me there.

1028
00:35:29,605 --> 00:35:30,505
But I also

1029
00:35:31,445 --> 00:35:33,045
one of my side projects, I do a

1030
00:35:33,045 --> 00:35:34,485
lot of advocacy work, but one of my

1031
00:35:34,485 --> 00:35:36,724
other side projects is I usually have I

1032
00:35:36,724 --> 00:35:37,845
have a wait list a lot of the

1033
00:35:37,845 --> 00:35:39,760
time. And so people will contact me and

1034
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:40,960
say, hey. Can I get in? I'll say,

1035
00:35:41,199 --> 00:35:42,819
yeah. It might be a while.

1036
00:35:43,119 --> 00:35:44,799
So one of the things I found for

1037
00:35:44,799 --> 00:35:45,299
couples

1038
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,079
or individuals who'll come and say, hey. I

1039
00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:50,559
need some help with boundaries are a really

1040
00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:53,255
big issue for both my betrayed partners and

1041
00:35:53,255 --> 00:35:54,555
my acting out partners

1042
00:35:54,934 --> 00:35:57,035
and also communication issues. So

1043
00:35:57,815 --> 00:36:00,934
working with, my mentor, doctor Skinner, that I

1044
00:36:00,934 --> 00:36:01,755
mentioned previously,

1045
00:36:02,135 --> 00:36:04,875
he has a website called humanintimacy.com.

1046
00:36:05,159 --> 00:36:07,239
And there on that website, I've got a

1047
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:07,739
free

1048
00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:09,900
course that's on communication.

1049
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,920
Cool. I've got some courses that aren't free,

1050
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,239
but I've got one on couples. I've got

1051
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:16,619
one also on boundaries.

1052
00:36:17,159 --> 00:36:18,699
And so those are some

1053
00:36:19,105 --> 00:36:21,184
some places that you could also Yeah. Awesome.

1054
00:36:21,184 --> 00:36:22,625
Yeah. For those who are looking for, you

1055
00:36:22,625 --> 00:36:24,625
know, a place to start or something free,

1056
00:36:24,864 --> 00:36:26,465
absolutely. Yeah. I'll put that I'll put that

1057
00:36:26,465 --> 00:36:27,985
link in the show notes for people who

1058
00:36:27,985 --> 00:36:30,224
wanna go there. But, yeah, Mary Anne, this

1059
00:36:30,224 --> 00:36:31,905
was wonderful. I have a feeling that we're

1060
00:36:31,905 --> 00:36:33,690
gonna do a part two for this because

1061
00:36:33,690 --> 00:36:35,530
this was way too fun, and we have

1062
00:36:35,530 --> 00:36:37,050
far too many things that you and I

1063
00:36:37,050 --> 00:36:38,409
wanted to talk about that we didn't get

1064
00:36:38,409 --> 00:36:39,230
to talk about

1065
00:36:39,609 --> 00:36:40,650
as usual. But,

1066
00:36:41,210 --> 00:36:43,609
no. You're you're you're very brilliant. You have

1067
00:36:43,609 --> 00:36:45,289
so much knowledge to offer. And so I

1068
00:36:45,289 --> 00:36:47,210
I if you're open to it, I I

1069
00:36:47,210 --> 00:36:48,809
can't imagine why we wouldn't do a part

1070
00:36:48,809 --> 00:36:50,305
two for this. So thank you so much

1071
00:36:50,305 --> 00:36:52,385
for coming on. Thanks for listening to this

1072
00:36:52,385 --> 00:36:54,465
episode. If you are a high achiever with

1073
00:36:54,465 --> 00:36:56,065
a sex addiction and you're looking for a

1074
00:36:56,065 --> 00:36:58,625
recovery group full of like minded men, visit

1075
00:36:58,625 --> 00:37:00,065
successfuladdict.com.

1076
00:37:00,065 --> 00:37:02,864
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1077
00:37:02,864 --> 00:37:04,164
using four day retreats,

1078
00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:07,329
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1079
00:37:07,390 --> 00:37:09,469
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1080
00:37:09,469 --> 00:37:11,469
save your marriage, go to our website and

1081
00:37:11,469 --> 00:37:12,369
fill out our application.

1082
00:37:12,670 --> 00:37:15,150
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1083
00:37:15,150 --> 00:37:16,750
along to a friend in recovery who would

1084
00:37:16,750 --> 00:37:18,750
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1085
00:37:18,750 --> 00:37:20,532
get this information out to as many high

1086
00:37:20,532 --> 00:37:22,772
achievers as possible, and I can't do it

1087
00:37:22,772 --> 00:37:23,752
without your help.