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This episode, I collaborate with Tammy Gustafson. Tammy

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is the founder of the Betrayal Healing Conference.

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Some of you maybe have attended that conference

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virtually,

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but she just released her brand new book.

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She sent me a copy. I have not

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finished it yet. I just got it last

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week. I've read through the first chapter. She's

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a phenomenal author. I actually quoted her, some

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of her work in my book, but she's

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very well written and truly has a heart

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for betrayal healing. Now in this episode, we

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talk about navigating the betrayal dynamic. I know

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a lot of you guys struggle with that.

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I think we all do. But Tammy has

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such a great way of articulating

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how to honor each phase of the healing

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process. I think you'll enjoy this

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episode. You are listening to the sex addiction

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podcast for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and

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entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles

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specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

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I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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more information about joining our group or attending

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our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Tammy, you're back.

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This is exciting,

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with some good news for everyone. So, Tammy,

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you just,

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are, wrote a new book. It is now

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released. It's, this will be a big year

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for you. Betrayal Betrayal Healing Conference,

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book launch. So excited for you. But, tell

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us why. Why another book? I mean, there's

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so many books out there in the betrayal

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trauma space. Why do we need another one?

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Well, for a couple of reasons. One, the

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book is called Broken to Brave, and it

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is specifically

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for betrayed partners. So it's helping her. But

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this book is really walking her through the

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process

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from

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from the initial discovery and blow up all

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the way through her healing.

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And it's really it's helping her. I've created

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four phases,

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and it helps her along the way

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to get a little bit of bearing to

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say, hey. Where where am I at?

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What do I need to focus on?

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And how do I get

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how do I get to the place of

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healing?

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And this book walks her through that because,

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man,

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it's a it's the book I wish I

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would have had when life blew up. So

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talk talk tell us a little bit more

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about that. What's so

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like, what because again, you know, all the

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helpers, you know, so much great help. There's

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tons of great books out there. But I

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agree with you, Tammy. I think it's a

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despite the abundance of helpers and the enthusiasm

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from all the helpers, I will still say

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when you get into this, it is it's,

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you know, and the helpers hate to hear

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this because we're all trying so hard to

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help, but but Tammy, it's murky. It is

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not it is not black and white. It

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is murky. It is gray. I would say

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sometimes

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some of the advice ends up kind of

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almost blowing up in our face. So talk

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to us a little bit about more of

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that. What's how is your book,

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how does your book mend some of that?

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How does it kind of help them take

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all of this help and actually, you know,

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use it in the in the intended way?

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Yeah. Well, you know, when life flows up,

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you don't know which way is up. You

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know, you don't know which way is up

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or down or forwards or backwards. And so

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it's very confusing

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as a trade partner to know,

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like, how do I get to the other

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side if we wanna call it that. Right?

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And

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and so there's I think there's a lot

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of stuff out there that kind of focuses

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on her emotional

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healing and well-being.

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But

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but the re part of the reason I

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wrote this book is, man, I wish I

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could have seen, like, man, there is a

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path.

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There is a way to get there. And

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not that it's a single straight line, not

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that I have all the answers and nobody

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else does, not at all. But it is

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to have something that goes, hey. That's the

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direction towards healing,

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and here's how you get there. Like, here's

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how you go. And there's a lot of

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potholes and ways you can get stuck along

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the way. So let's call those out, and

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those are specific for different phases that you're

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in. So kind of as a guide coming

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along beside betrayed partners saying, hey. Here we

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go, and we're going in that direction, and

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we'll watch out for that and stay away

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from that. You can focus on that later.

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And so I think that part Yeah.

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It would have been really helpful. Yeah. No.

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I I I love that because it's so

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true. Right? I think the one of the

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challenges is, right, you jump in, you're listening

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to the podcast, you're reading to the books,

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and I think to your point,

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you know, we start doing phase three things

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in phase one. And then, and we start

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holding our partner,

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you know, both both the betrayed partner,

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and the cheating partner. We they get held

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to standards that, you know, maybe we should

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be a little careful holding them to that

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standard yet. You know, there's an element of,

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you know, for both sides of them kind

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of getting comfortable with,

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how this looks. I mean, it's really this

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is a really hard thing. It's hard to

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be hurt this deeply and show up as

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an adult. Yeah. It's hard to be

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called the names that we get called and,

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go through this. It's a very, you know,

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it's a big hit to the ego to

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go to some of the you know, to

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admit that you have a sexual compulsive problem.

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I mean, you know, so I think it

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it's I I love what you're saying is,

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you know, yes. There's all this great information,

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and we do need to be a little

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careful holding people to a standard that, you

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know, just take some time for them to

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really step into that place. Right? So, you

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know, teaching how do we teach people what

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we're striving for, but also grace at the

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same time. And, you know, it is. It's

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this it's this,

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it's a lot more there's more moving parts

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than than we think. And to your point,

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we need that guide to basically say, hey.

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This is what we're working towards, and it's

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okay if we don't see that every time

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yet. It's, you know, this takes time. And

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just kind of, I guess,

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plant, appropriate expectations

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while along the journey while instilling hope and

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also,

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giving us a reason to be patient. You're

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so spot on. I mean, there's there's so

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many things that the guides need to tell

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us that I think sometimes we we miss

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in the details of it all with again,

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we're all impatient. We just we want this

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we want this out of our life. I

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know the guys would,

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the guys always say, if it seems like

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the women are not wanting this out of

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their life, guys, trust me, they want it

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out of their life more than you want

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it out of their life. I can assure

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you of that.

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So, Tammy, another question. Can we speak to

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the four phases? How,

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are these similar to kind of some of

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the four phases that exist? Have you kind

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of modified some of them? Talk to us

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about the four and and how you came

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up with it. Yeah.

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Certainly, I'll do that. You might be a

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little disappointed with the book in the sense

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of I tell her to hold the standard

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high.

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Yep. Which I like that. I like that.

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You know, I think I think it's it's

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when we give an inch, we and I

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think, you know, I think both parties,

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they both are so desperate for this to

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go away. So, I think you bring up

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a good point. Give them an inch. I

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think both of you impulsively, compulsively

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are gonna try to take a mile if

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you can't. So I I I like that

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you I like but here's the thing I

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know about you, though, Tammy, is I know

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your I've seen your delivery method. There's a

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way of holding the standard high while still,

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being human and honoring humanity, and you've always

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done a good job of that. So I

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I don't think I'll be disappointed. I think

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you'll I think you'll hold I think you'll

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hold the space fine.

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Well, as to the four phases, so I

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didn't model it after any. Really, what I

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looked at it was, first of all, kind

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of based on the clinical experience of what

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do I see. There's very kind of predictable

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phases and predictable things that women go through

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after betrayal, and then also just my own

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personal experience as well. So the first phase

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is reveal, and that's when that's when life

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blows up, whether through a discovery or through

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a disclosure,

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but that's when life blows up. And the

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whole focus at that point

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is to get the truth,

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to get safe.

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You know, you're dealing with all the shock,

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but it's really that foundational step of, like,

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oh my gosh. My life just shattered. Like,

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what is going on? And trying to focus

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on getting the truth in that phase.

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The second phase,

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it the transition of that is when she

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either gets the full truth

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or when it becomes clear that he's not

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going to give her the full truth. Mhmm.

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And then at that point, it transitions into

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phase two, which I call rumble.

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Yeah. And for the rumble, this is the

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big

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messy middle. Right? This is where he is

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hopefully getting sober. He is hopefully getting his

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feet underneath him.

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She is grieving.

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She is, like, adjusting to new life. She

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is working on boundaries and finding her voice

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and dealing with her emotions and really kinda

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wrestling with, do I wanna stay?

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Do I wanna stay? And looking and saying,

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okay. What work is he doing? And is

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he really doing the work, the heart work

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or not? Mhmm.

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Right? And Yeah. I call that that that's

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that, like, wrapping your head around the reality

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of your situation phase. Yeah. I hear that.

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And that's a and that's a scary one.

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Right? Because I think both people are are

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sincerely asking themselves, is this a journey I

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wanna go on? Right? Which is which is

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tough. Right? For two married people, what a

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what a scary question to be wondering. Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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And then phase three?

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00:09:00,230 --> 00:09:03,290
Phase three is where there it it transitions

265
00:09:03,509 --> 00:09:05,884
into you you kinda know where your relationship

266
00:09:05,884 --> 00:09:08,044
is headed. And, really, what I see is

267
00:09:08,044 --> 00:09:09,424
there's there's kind of three,

268
00:09:10,044 --> 00:09:11,565
paths at that point. There's kind of the

269
00:09:11,565 --> 00:09:14,044
redemption path where the relationship is healing, where

270
00:09:14,044 --> 00:09:15,965
he's done enough work and he's safe and

271
00:09:15,965 --> 00:09:18,284
he's working towards healing, and she wants to

272
00:09:18,284 --> 00:09:19,985
stay and she's ready to lean in.

273
00:09:20,339 --> 00:09:22,819
Another one is divorce. Mhmm. And then there's

274
00:09:22,819 --> 00:09:25,860
this middle one that that unfortunately doesn't get

275
00:09:25,860 --> 00:09:27,139
a lot of attention, and I call it

276
00:09:27,139 --> 00:09:29,620
the roommate phase. And that's where he's not

277
00:09:29,620 --> 00:09:32,579
actually doing great work, but she doesn't wanna

278
00:09:32,579 --> 00:09:34,605
leave. Mhmm. For a lot of there's a

279
00:09:34,605 --> 00:09:36,924
lot of really valid reasons. There's no shame

280
00:09:36,924 --> 00:09:39,264
or judgment in that. But so the relationship

281
00:09:39,404 --> 00:09:41,084
kind of goes along one of those three

282
00:09:41,084 --> 00:09:44,205
paths, and, really, there's very unique needs for

283
00:09:44,205 --> 00:09:46,205
each one of those. Yeah. I I I'm

284
00:09:46,284 --> 00:09:47,584
as I'm looking at those,

285
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:49,340
they are

286
00:09:49,879 --> 00:09:52,039
oh my gosh. They're almost entirely different, in

287
00:09:52,039 --> 00:09:54,200
terms of how you handle them. Right? I

288
00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,120
I think when I've watched how these get

289
00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:56,620
handled,

290
00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,000
I think they're a, I think there's a

291
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,814
disagreement between the two parties of which phase

292
00:10:01,814 --> 00:10:03,434
they're necessarily choosing.

293
00:10:03,814 --> 00:10:06,054
And then if they have chosen the same

294
00:10:06,054 --> 00:10:07,674
phase, what I've also noticed is,

295
00:10:09,174 --> 00:10:09,995
one person,

296
00:10:11,894 --> 00:10:13,654
while they're while they both feel like they've

297
00:10:13,654 --> 00:10:16,410
chosen the redemption phase, one person has a

298
00:10:16,410 --> 00:10:18,649
different idea of what that phase needs compared

299
00:10:18,649 --> 00:10:19,929
to the other person. And and it's and

300
00:10:19,929 --> 00:10:22,509
that can be a very problematic. Right? Because,

301
00:10:23,210 --> 00:10:24,889
you know, there's two yeah.

302
00:10:25,690 --> 00:10:27,370
They don't feel like they're working towards the

303
00:10:27,370 --> 00:10:29,085
thing that they're working towards. I I can

304
00:10:29,165 --> 00:10:30,764
totally resonate with that. I had a very

305
00:10:30,764 --> 00:10:33,165
different vision of what redemption looks like compared

306
00:10:33,165 --> 00:10:35,404
to her, and I think it caused a

307
00:10:35,404 --> 00:10:36,925
lot of harm. We'll get back to that,

308
00:10:37,245 --> 00:10:38,384
and then phase four.

309
00:10:39,165 --> 00:10:41,884
Phase four is where all women kinda come

310
00:10:41,884 --> 00:10:44,399
back together. So phase three is realigned. Phase

311
00:10:44,399 --> 00:10:46,240
four is what I call rebuild. And this

312
00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,720
is really an organic shift that happens. And

313
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,120
this is usually once the crisis of the

314
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:52,660
relationship has calmed.

315
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,360
She knows where it's headed. And then there's

316
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,279
this shift that happens where women will come

317
00:10:57,279 --> 00:10:58,960
into my office, and they're like, you know

318
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,294
what? It's time. I really need to focus

319
00:11:01,294 --> 00:11:03,134
on me. It's time to focus on me.

320
00:11:03,134 --> 00:11:05,054
And this is where she kinda gets the

321
00:11:05,054 --> 00:11:06,914
lay of the land and says,

322
00:11:07,375 --> 00:11:07,875
alright.

323
00:11:08,735 --> 00:11:10,654
How do I rebuild? Like, what do I

324
00:11:10,654 --> 00:11:12,894
want the rest of my life Mhmm. To

325
00:11:12,894 --> 00:11:15,659
look like now and to start moving towards

326
00:11:15,659 --> 00:11:16,159
that?

327
00:11:16,940 --> 00:11:18,699
So I love this. All women come back

328
00:11:18,699 --> 00:11:20,779
into this phase four no matter what their

329
00:11:20,940 --> 00:11:23,419
the outcome of their relationship is. And I

330
00:11:23,419 --> 00:11:25,259
love this. I love that phase to help

331
00:11:25,259 --> 00:11:27,179
women get a glimpse of what life can

332
00:11:27,179 --> 00:11:29,100
be like again. Yeah. It's so cool, and

333
00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:29,865
it's a nice,

334
00:11:30,825 --> 00:11:33,625
it's a nice it it's it's a great

335
00:11:33,705 --> 00:11:35,464
you know, I think the hallmark of this

336
00:11:35,464 --> 00:11:37,384
phase for us was it was like this

337
00:11:37,544 --> 00:11:39,164
it was the shift of, like,

338
00:11:41,464 --> 00:11:42,720
you know what? Hey. If you're gonna act

339
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:43,539
out again,

340
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,100
I trust my gut that I'll know,

341
00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:48,240
and I'll find out, and then I'll leave.

342
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,100
It was like it's more of this, like,

343
00:11:51,039 --> 00:11:52,559
hey. I just hope you and I are

344
00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,320
on the same page here, but at the

345
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,559
same time, I'm tired of worrying about you.

346
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,415
I'm, you know, I I want my life

347
00:11:58,415 --> 00:12:00,415
back, and it's this it's a cool level

348
00:12:00,415 --> 00:12:02,174
of ownership. But I like it because I

349
00:12:02,174 --> 00:12:04,174
think it sets the the marriage starts to

350
00:12:04,174 --> 00:12:05,774
really at least for me, it was it

351
00:12:05,774 --> 00:12:07,215
was a good it was a cool place

352
00:12:07,215 --> 00:12:07,875
where, like,

353
00:12:09,215 --> 00:12:11,054
I felt really I was really proud of

354
00:12:11,054 --> 00:12:12,799
her, and I felt I felt almost more

355
00:12:12,799 --> 00:12:15,360
compelled to be prouder of myself, right, in

356
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:16,720
that phase. I love that I love that

357
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,879
fourth one. So, I would love to kind

358
00:12:18,879 --> 00:12:20,080
of go back if you're okay with it.

359
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:21,379
I'd love to go to,

360
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,245
each through each phase and kinda explain to,

361
00:12:24,245 --> 00:12:26,184
you know, the bulk of my audience is,

362
00:12:26,725 --> 00:12:29,125
our men. I think 20% are their partners,

363
00:12:29,125 --> 00:12:31,605
but, I'd still say 80% of the audience

364
00:12:31,605 --> 00:12:32,004
are,

365
00:12:32,964 --> 00:12:34,804
our men who are, you know, in the

366
00:12:34,804 --> 00:12:36,404
first six months of this, year of this,

367
00:12:36,404 --> 00:12:38,169
two years of this. So if we could

368
00:12:38,169 --> 00:12:39,850
go through each phase just a little bit.

369
00:12:39,850 --> 00:12:42,029
So this reveal safety phase,

370
00:12:42,409 --> 00:12:44,570
what do what do the what do men

371
00:12:44,570 --> 00:12:46,809
need to understand about this that you feel

372
00:12:46,809 --> 00:12:48,570
like, you know, if they read your book,

373
00:12:48,570 --> 00:12:50,889
they would almost have a different appreciation for

374
00:12:50,889 --> 00:12:52,990
than when they're they're on the reveal phase

375
00:12:53,024 --> 00:12:54,305
on their side of things. So I think

376
00:12:54,305 --> 00:12:57,264
the the two worlds are in that phase

377
00:12:57,264 --> 00:12:57,764
probably,

378
00:12:59,825 --> 00:13:02,004
more different than almost any other phase. Right?

379
00:13:02,144 --> 00:13:02,644
Yeah.

380
00:13:03,745 --> 00:13:05,825
Well, for guys, I would say you've gotta

381
00:13:05,825 --> 00:13:06,884
give her the truth.

382
00:13:07,460 --> 00:13:10,440
And it is actually the most loving thing

383
00:13:10,740 --> 00:13:11,559
you can do

384
00:13:11,940 --> 00:13:14,100
to give her the truth. And I know

385
00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:16,580
it's scary and terrifying and all of that,

386
00:13:16,580 --> 00:13:18,660
but if your marriage has any chance or

387
00:13:18,660 --> 00:13:20,600
your relationship has any chance

388
00:13:20,924 --> 00:13:23,644
of really healing and moving forward, you've gotta

389
00:13:23,644 --> 00:13:24,865
come fully clean.

390
00:13:25,644 --> 00:13:27,804
And when you write in this book, how

391
00:13:28,365 --> 00:13:29,884
you know, so because I do. I want

392
00:13:29,884 --> 00:13:32,365
guys to kinda understand, like, you know, when

393
00:13:32,365 --> 00:13:34,784
the helpers are helping, I it is beneficial

394
00:13:34,845 --> 00:13:36,929
to understand, like, what are what are the

395
00:13:36,929 --> 00:13:38,389
helpers telling her?

396
00:13:38,850 --> 00:13:41,329
Because, again, it's it's very important that we

397
00:13:41,329 --> 00:13:43,089
know what that is, because I do. I

398
00:13:43,089 --> 00:13:43,589
think,

399
00:13:44,769 --> 00:13:47,409
you know, she's getting prepared for something because

400
00:13:47,409 --> 00:13:48,769
she wants to save the marriage. I mean,

401
00:13:48,769 --> 00:13:50,774
I think guys forget, like, the fact that

402
00:13:50,774 --> 00:13:53,254
she didn't leave. You guys understand, like, I

403
00:13:53,254 --> 00:13:55,174
know once you enter the when you enter

404
00:13:55,174 --> 00:13:57,995
the betrayal trauma space, you have this delusional

405
00:13:58,214 --> 00:14:00,375
thought of, like, oh, all the partners state.

406
00:14:00,375 --> 00:14:02,934
Guys, that is wildly not true. I would

407
00:14:02,934 --> 00:14:05,014
say the people who make it into Tammy's

408
00:14:05,014 --> 00:14:05,514
office,

409
00:14:05,850 --> 00:14:07,690
you guys are the exception and the small

410
00:14:07,690 --> 00:14:10,169
percentage. I think most people see this and

411
00:14:10,169 --> 00:14:12,649
they they just leave. They they put an

412
00:14:12,649 --> 00:14:13,929
end to it. So the fact that these

413
00:14:13,929 --> 00:14:16,110
ladies are here and wanting to do this,

414
00:14:16,250 --> 00:14:18,649
you guys are you're the exception. You're lucky.

415
00:14:18,649 --> 00:14:20,649
There there's some true love going on here

416
00:14:20,649 --> 00:14:21,134
where,

417
00:14:21,615 --> 00:14:23,455
you know, you guys are getting grace that

418
00:14:23,455 --> 00:14:25,215
I would say the vast majority of the

419
00:14:25,215 --> 00:14:27,855
population does not get. So, that all being

420
00:14:27,855 --> 00:14:29,375
said, when she goes to seek help for

421
00:14:29,375 --> 00:14:30,674
this and give you a chance,

422
00:14:31,134 --> 00:14:32,815
I personally think we need to we need

423
00:14:32,815 --> 00:14:34,575
to honor that maybe more than than we

424
00:14:34,575 --> 00:14:36,830
do. So so they come in there. Let's

425
00:14:36,830 --> 00:14:38,509
say they're meeting with you or maybe they're

426
00:14:38,509 --> 00:14:39,809
reading this book, Tammy.

427
00:14:40,429 --> 00:14:42,190
What, you know, what if you're gonna tell

428
00:14:42,190 --> 00:14:43,970
my audience, the men of my audience,

429
00:14:44,590 --> 00:14:46,669
like, that message that they're getting in terms

430
00:14:46,669 --> 00:14:47,570
like the value

431
00:14:47,904 --> 00:14:50,304
of him coming clean. Like, what what are

432
00:14:50,304 --> 00:14:52,784
you telling them that needs to happen and

433
00:14:52,784 --> 00:14:54,464
the benefit of that and what that sets

434
00:14:54,464 --> 00:14:56,865
the relationship up for in the future? This

435
00:14:56,865 --> 00:14:59,264
this kind of radical transparency so that my

436
00:14:59,264 --> 00:15:00,085
guys can

437
00:15:00,659 --> 00:15:02,579
adhere to that. Because I don't think sometimes

438
00:15:02,579 --> 00:15:05,299
we're really honoring this phase. It's still how

439
00:15:05,299 --> 00:15:07,220
little can I get away with? Right? How

440
00:15:07,220 --> 00:15:08,740
how little how little can I say to

441
00:15:08,740 --> 00:15:11,379
incriminate myself past the poly so that we

442
00:15:11,379 --> 00:15:12,759
can kind of move on?

443
00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:15,299
In your book, what are you saying and

444
00:15:15,299 --> 00:15:17,964
how can guys do their part to give

445
00:15:17,964 --> 00:15:19,105
her what she needs?

446
00:15:19,884 --> 00:15:21,105
The the minimum

447
00:15:22,445 --> 00:15:24,225
is going to destroy your marriage.

448
00:15:25,084 --> 00:15:27,804
Like, this is really it it's really this

449
00:15:27,804 --> 00:15:29,725
is an all or nothing. You have got

450
00:15:29,725 --> 00:15:31,345
to come fully clean.

451
00:15:32,410 --> 00:15:34,809
And because she will feel it in her

452
00:15:34,809 --> 00:15:35,309
body,

453
00:15:35,690 --> 00:15:37,710
and chances are you won't pass a polygraph.

454
00:15:38,169 --> 00:15:40,649
And every time there's a drip disclosure, every

455
00:15:40,649 --> 00:15:42,730
time you say that's it and then it

456
00:15:42,730 --> 00:15:45,070
wasn't, or every time you fail a polygraph,

457
00:15:46,245 --> 00:15:49,284
that can damage the the relationship almost even

458
00:15:49,284 --> 00:15:51,065
more than the initial one. Mhmm.

459
00:15:51,524 --> 00:15:54,105
So it really like, therefore,

460
00:15:54,565 --> 00:15:57,044
for the true healing and for your sake,

461
00:15:57,044 --> 00:15:59,370
for your true healing, there really has to

462
00:15:59,370 --> 00:16:01,690
be a full break there of, like, letting

463
00:16:01,690 --> 00:16:03,610
your guard down and opening it up and

464
00:16:03,610 --> 00:16:04,589
going, okay.

465
00:16:04,970 --> 00:16:06,909
This is this is reality.

466
00:16:07,289 --> 00:16:07,789
Because

467
00:16:08,250 --> 00:16:10,110
for a couple reasons. One,

468
00:16:17,725 --> 00:16:18,225
really

469
00:16:18,684 --> 00:16:19,184
important

470
00:16:19,964 --> 00:16:22,445
because shame is the worst feeling to live

471
00:16:22,445 --> 00:16:24,464
with. Like, I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

472
00:16:24,605 --> 00:16:26,309
Like, I wouldn't wish that. And to be

473
00:16:26,309 --> 00:16:29,210
able to come clean, the the vast majority

474
00:16:29,269 --> 00:16:31,269
of men who do a full disclosure that

475
00:16:31,269 --> 00:16:33,350
I talk to feel relief afterwards. Mhmm. Mhmm.

476
00:16:33,350 --> 00:16:33,990
Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm.

477
00:16:33,990 --> 00:16:35,269
Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. I'll I'll I'll

478
00:16:35,269 --> 00:16:37,210
speak to that. I to me,

479
00:16:38,309 --> 00:16:40,134
sure, I know it's I mean, I don't

480
00:16:40,134 --> 00:16:41,894
I don't I don't agree that it's for

481
00:16:41,894 --> 00:16:43,274
her. I think that

482
00:16:43,735 --> 00:16:46,214
she I think that she benefits from hearing

483
00:16:46,214 --> 00:16:47,654
it. But, I mean, I think if we

484
00:16:47,654 --> 00:16:49,174
really were to measure, like, who gets the

485
00:16:49,174 --> 00:16:50,855
most out of it, I would say, I

486
00:16:50,855 --> 00:16:53,495
would encourage all guys to be insanely honest

487
00:16:53,495 --> 00:16:55,970
because I think from a benefit standpoint, I

488
00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:57,589
think 80% of the benefit

489
00:16:57,970 --> 00:16:59,649
actually was for me. I think I think

490
00:16:59,649 --> 00:17:01,009
she needed to hear it. She deserved to

491
00:17:01,009 --> 00:17:02,690
hear it all. I know my particular my

492
00:17:02,690 --> 00:17:04,609
wife, would not have been able to go

493
00:17:04,609 --> 00:17:05,509
forward without,

494
00:17:06,130 --> 00:17:08,775
full disclosure with polygraph. I mean, my wife,

495
00:17:08,775 --> 00:17:10,455
she needed it. I there was no way

496
00:17:10,455 --> 00:17:13,095
around that. There's no disclosure without polygraph. There's

497
00:17:13,095 --> 00:17:15,654
no sensor disclosure that I mean, she needed

498
00:17:15,654 --> 00:17:18,295
the full name thing in in in a

499
00:17:18,295 --> 00:17:20,295
pretty darn good, a great amount of detail

500
00:17:20,295 --> 00:17:21,529
minus harmful

501
00:17:21,990 --> 00:17:24,309
details. So yeah. But I so, again, she

502
00:17:24,309 --> 00:17:25,910
benefited, but I'll say I'll say right now

503
00:17:25,910 --> 00:17:27,049
to all the guys listening,

504
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:29,029
I got a ton out of it and

505
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:30,410
I I I don't,

506
00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:32,150
it was out of the whole process. It

507
00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:34,789
was actually probably the most beneficial thing to

508
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:36,255
get it out there because it was like,

509
00:17:36,335 --> 00:17:39,454
alright. Cool. Well, there's literally nothing she doesn't

510
00:17:39,454 --> 00:17:41,315
know, and I think guys minimize,

511
00:17:42,654 --> 00:17:44,174
the feeling of that. It was it was

512
00:17:44,255 --> 00:17:45,855
I mean, Tammy, it was it was such

513
00:17:45,855 --> 00:17:47,154
a great feeling to know.

514
00:17:47,615 --> 00:17:50,654
Okay. Truly, no secrets. I I I do.

515
00:17:50,654 --> 00:17:52,409
I think we I think guys need to

516
00:17:52,409 --> 00:17:54,649
really let that in. That is a man,

517
00:17:54,649 --> 00:17:56,569
it's just such a great feeling, you know,

518
00:17:56,569 --> 00:17:58,329
to to really let her know where you're

519
00:17:58,329 --> 00:18:00,250
at. Hey. I have been watching porn three

520
00:18:00,250 --> 00:18:02,190
times a week since the day we met

521
00:18:02,329 --> 00:18:04,329
for twenty years, thirty years. Like, I have

522
00:18:04,329 --> 00:18:05,690
done that. And there's just a there's a

523
00:18:05,690 --> 00:18:08,475
freedom of, like, I'm not holding back any

524
00:18:08,475 --> 00:18:10,154
any little bit of our our life there.

525
00:18:10,154 --> 00:18:12,154
So I I do I wanna drop an

526
00:18:12,154 --> 00:18:13,535
anchor on that and say,

527
00:18:14,234 --> 00:18:15,835
you know, stop thinking about this as a

528
00:18:15,835 --> 00:18:18,015
her thing. It's it's definitely a you thing

529
00:18:18,154 --> 00:18:18,894
as well.

530
00:18:19,570 --> 00:18:21,830
And then phase two, rumble, oh gosh.

531
00:18:23,090 --> 00:18:24,529
So when you're talking about, I mean I

532
00:18:24,529 --> 00:18:25,809
know I think all the guys are very

533
00:18:25,809 --> 00:18:27,090
familiar with their rumbling.

534
00:18:27,650 --> 00:18:29,730
So when you're speaking to these ladies about

535
00:18:29,730 --> 00:18:31,570
their rumbling, this is I would say this

536
00:18:31,570 --> 00:18:33,490
is a phase that Tammy we really need

537
00:18:33,490 --> 00:18:34,630
your help with because

538
00:18:34,984 --> 00:18:37,065
this is the phase where there is some

539
00:18:37,065 --> 00:18:38,365
question as to,

540
00:18:38,664 --> 00:18:39,164
okay,

541
00:18:39,705 --> 00:18:42,424
I'm starting to appreciate what betrayal trauma is

542
00:18:42,424 --> 00:18:43,244
and what,

543
00:18:43,625 --> 00:18:46,744
compulsive sexual behavior is. There is this question

544
00:18:46,744 --> 00:18:48,365
though of do I want to

545
00:18:48,849 --> 00:18:50,210
stay? Do I do I want to do

546
00:18:50,210 --> 00:18:52,130
this? And I think I don't think any

547
00:18:52,130 --> 00:18:53,889
couple is exempt from that. I think some

548
00:18:53,889 --> 00:18:55,490
question it more than others, but I do

549
00:18:55,490 --> 00:18:56,470
think both people,

550
00:18:57,409 --> 00:18:59,029
it's healthy to kind of wonder,

551
00:18:59,809 --> 00:19:01,329
do I wanna stay? And then b, do

552
00:19:01,329 --> 00:19:03,255
I trust them to do their part?

553
00:19:03,815 --> 00:19:05,654
So what are you saying to the ladies

554
00:19:05,654 --> 00:19:07,894
in this rumble phase so that the guys

555
00:19:07,894 --> 00:19:10,795
can, again, do everything that they can to,

556
00:19:11,015 --> 00:19:12,234
you know, make it as,

557
00:19:13,335 --> 00:19:15,335
I don't know, easy for them as possible?

558
00:19:15,335 --> 00:19:16,855
Because I would say guys can really screw

559
00:19:16,855 --> 00:19:18,615
up phase two if they're if they're not

560
00:19:18,615 --> 00:19:19,115
careful.

561
00:19:19,950 --> 00:19:21,730
Well, I think from the guy's perspective,

562
00:19:23,150 --> 00:19:25,390
they have to be fully in. And this

563
00:19:25,390 --> 00:19:28,029
is where sobriety sobriety is not the finish

564
00:19:28,029 --> 00:19:30,130
line. Sobriety is a starting line.

565
00:19:30,750 --> 00:19:32,589
And so for them to get to a

566
00:19:32,589 --> 00:19:34,349
place of sobriety, but then it's the deeper

567
00:19:34,349 --> 00:19:36,734
work of recovery. It's the character change. It's

568
00:19:36,734 --> 00:19:37,234
understanding

569
00:19:38,095 --> 00:19:40,494
why. Not just, you know, you weren't having

570
00:19:40,494 --> 00:19:42,335
sex with me after our our son was

571
00:19:42,335 --> 00:19:44,095
born, but, you know, like, why? Like, trace

572
00:19:44,095 --> 00:19:45,855
this back to childhood. What are those wounds

573
00:19:45,855 --> 00:19:48,589
that are not being filled? Filled? So and

574
00:19:48,589 --> 00:19:50,829
that's not on your partner. That's on you

575
00:19:50,829 --> 00:19:52,690
to go back and fill those. Right?

576
00:19:52,990 --> 00:19:55,549
So for him, he has to break and

577
00:19:55,549 --> 00:19:56,990
he has to dig in deep. He has

578
00:19:56,990 --> 00:19:59,069
to understand his triggers. He has to have

579
00:19:59,069 --> 00:20:00,990
plans in place. He needs good men in

580
00:20:00,990 --> 00:20:01,649
his life

581
00:20:02,734 --> 00:20:03,774
who are going to pat him on the

582
00:20:03,774 --> 00:20:05,134
back and say, Yeah, I did porn this

583
00:20:05,134 --> 00:20:06,815
week too. Our wives are so mean for

584
00:20:06,815 --> 00:20:09,554
yelling at us. That will destroy the marriage,

585
00:20:09,774 --> 00:20:10,274
right?

586
00:20:10,575 --> 00:20:12,414
And so for the guys, they have to

587
00:20:12,414 --> 00:20:15,375
be all in in this process of really

588
00:20:15,375 --> 00:20:16,740
becoming a new man.

589
00:20:19,299 --> 00:20:22,759
Wife's perspective or a a betrayed partner's perspective,

590
00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:26,420
most of the time they did not know

591
00:20:26,420 --> 00:20:26,920
what

592
00:20:27,460 --> 00:20:29,619
their husband was doing when they got married.

593
00:20:29,619 --> 00:20:30,900
And if they did, they never would have

594
00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:31,545
married them.

595
00:20:33,144 --> 00:20:34,664
Them and see this version of them. And

596
00:20:34,664 --> 00:20:36,744
so this is the this phase two is

597
00:20:36,744 --> 00:20:38,205
the chance you have

598
00:20:38,585 --> 00:20:41,705
to dig deep, to to clean all that

599
00:20:41,705 --> 00:20:43,865
out, and to become the person who your

600
00:20:43,865 --> 00:20:44,924
wife always thought.

601
00:20:45,705 --> 00:20:47,950
That that you were. Because most women do

602
00:20:47,950 --> 00:20:50,109
not want to get divorced. They just want

603
00:20:50,109 --> 00:20:52,509
their guys to do the work. They just

604
00:20:52,509 --> 00:20:54,669
want him to become safe. They just want

605
00:20:54,669 --> 00:20:55,730
him to have integrity.

606
00:20:56,509 --> 00:20:57,009
But

607
00:20:58,190 --> 00:21:00,269
but they've gotta do the work. And for

608
00:21:00,269 --> 00:21:01,089
her side,

609
00:21:01,865 --> 00:21:04,184
her side, again, she's gotta keep the bar

610
00:21:04,184 --> 00:21:06,184
high. Mhmm. And she has got to focus

611
00:21:06,184 --> 00:21:09,085
on herself. This she cannot be your cheerleader.

612
00:21:09,785 --> 00:21:12,345
She cannot be your therapist. She cannot be

613
00:21:12,345 --> 00:21:14,559
any of that. She if she does, she

614
00:21:14,559 --> 00:21:17,039
gets out of her shoes, and she loses

615
00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:20,080
herself in the process. Mhmm. Because here's here's

616
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,580
the deal that I see is that especially

617
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,820
in phase one, phase two, there's this

618
00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:26,019
unspoken

619
00:21:26,724 --> 00:21:28,644
kind of back and forth thing that happens.

620
00:21:28,644 --> 00:21:31,204
And it's it's whose emotions get center stage.

621
00:21:31,204 --> 00:21:33,384
Mhmm. Is it his? Mhmm.

622
00:21:33,684 --> 00:21:34,184
Because,

623
00:21:34,644 --> 00:21:37,605
for his regrets and his shame and usually

624
00:21:37,605 --> 00:21:39,784
there's anger or whatever the case may be

625
00:21:39,924 --> 00:21:41,865
is is the focus on his emotions

626
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,819
and her pain and her trauma.

627
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:47,400
And let me tell you what I see

628
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,200
time and time again. If the focus goes

629
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:50,859
to him,

630
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,140
all healing stops. Yeah. I can see that.

631
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,380
Her healing stops and his healing

632
00:21:57,644 --> 00:21:59,105
actually stops too. Your healing

633
00:21:59,565 --> 00:22:00,444
stops if your wife is caretaking you and

634
00:22:00,444 --> 00:22:01,105
you're asking

635
00:22:01,484 --> 00:22:03,644
her to do that. Mhmm. Because part of

636
00:22:03,644 --> 00:22:05,804
your healing is to focus on her, is

637
00:22:05,804 --> 00:22:08,384
to face those negative emotions, is to

638
00:22:08,839 --> 00:22:11,559
learn how to deal when she's angry, is

639
00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:14,039
to provide space and empathy and all that

640
00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:15,820
that is crucial to your healing.

641
00:22:16,519 --> 00:22:18,599
And for her, she has got to stay

642
00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:19,660
focused on herself

643
00:22:20,039 --> 00:22:21,660
because her reality,

644
00:22:22,304 --> 00:22:24,304
her life, her heart was shattered. It is

645
00:22:24,304 --> 00:22:25,044
the equivalent

646
00:22:25,664 --> 00:22:27,845
of being in a massive car accident

647
00:22:28,224 --> 00:22:31,204
with broken bones and bleeding out and concussion,

648
00:22:31,744 --> 00:22:33,524
and she needs to go to the ICU.

649
00:22:33,585 --> 00:22:35,184
But a lot of times what happens is

650
00:22:35,184 --> 00:22:37,299
we lose sight of that. Mhmm. And and

651
00:22:37,299 --> 00:22:38,980
the guys are like, oh, but this this

652
00:22:38,980 --> 00:22:41,720
is really uncomfortable, and this doesn't feel good.

653
00:22:41,779 --> 00:22:43,700
And I mean respect by this, but a

654
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:45,779
lot of times it is, like like, come

655
00:22:45,779 --> 00:22:48,259
help me and make me feel better, and

656
00:22:48,259 --> 00:22:50,515
and don't make me feel anything that feels

657
00:22:50,515 --> 00:22:52,195
uncomfortable. And it's like, no. We have to

658
00:22:52,195 --> 00:22:54,535
get back to the he's in the ICU

659
00:22:55,394 --> 00:22:57,555
because of what you have done. Mhmm. Yeah.

660
00:22:57,555 --> 00:22:59,235
The way the way I say it too

661
00:22:59,235 --> 00:23:00,995
is the way to get there and guys,

662
00:23:00,995 --> 00:23:02,375
hear the hear this seriously.

663
00:23:03,049 --> 00:23:04,669
You get there through

664
00:23:06,169 --> 00:23:08,009
and I I I Tammy, I mean, maybe

665
00:23:08,009 --> 00:23:09,549
maybe you agree, maybe you don't.

666
00:23:09,929 --> 00:23:11,690
I think a lot of guys butcher this

667
00:23:11,690 --> 00:23:14,089
because they drag their feet too much when

668
00:23:14,089 --> 00:23:15,150
it comes to

669
00:23:15,845 --> 00:23:18,884
getting a really strong tribe of men around

670
00:23:18,884 --> 00:23:20,744
them, getting a because again,

671
00:23:21,045 --> 00:23:23,445
it's hard, you know, notice Tammy did not

672
00:23:23,445 --> 00:23:25,924
say don't feel your feelings. Tammy did not

673
00:23:25,924 --> 00:23:28,424
say become a punching bag and let her

674
00:23:28,484 --> 00:23:30,085
take the show and let her do it.

675
00:23:30,085 --> 00:23:32,059
Tammy didn't say that. Tammy

676
00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:35,179
said, in this phase, it really is beneficial

677
00:23:35,319 --> 00:23:37,880
for both parties to keep the spotlight on

678
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,779
the betrayed partner during this time just because,

679
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,839
I I agree with you, Tammy. I think

680
00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:44,440
I think they I think they really need

681
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,744
it and deserve it. It's a the position

682
00:23:46,805 --> 00:23:48,484
they are in, I don't think if they

683
00:23:48,484 --> 00:23:50,244
have the spotlight, I I agree with you.

684
00:23:50,244 --> 00:23:52,085
I think I think it's I don't know.

685
00:23:52,085 --> 00:23:53,765
I I would worry about the relationship at

686
00:23:53,765 --> 00:23:55,285
that time. And here's why I say that

687
00:23:55,285 --> 00:23:58,345
is, guys, it's pretty easy for us

688
00:23:58,779 --> 00:24:01,180
to get a pretty dang workable spotlight. It's

689
00:24:01,180 --> 00:24:03,339
really let me rephrase that. I wouldn't say

690
00:24:03,339 --> 00:24:05,279
it's easy. I would say if you're trying

691
00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:07,920
if you're trying to get into good recovery,

692
00:24:08,299 --> 00:24:10,140
you can get a spotlight on you and

693
00:24:10,140 --> 00:24:12,700
then keep the relational one on on her.

694
00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:15,315
I think for them, Tammy, oh my gosh,

695
00:24:15,315 --> 00:24:17,794
it's so hard for them to get one

696
00:24:17,794 --> 00:24:18,694
on their own

697
00:24:19,154 --> 00:24:21,494
if if we're not putting the relational one

698
00:24:21,875 --> 00:24:23,714
on her. It's just the the portrayed partners.

699
00:24:23,714 --> 00:24:25,794
It's it's a it's a dark it's a

700
00:24:25,794 --> 00:24:28,355
it's a scarier road, sad road, unfair it

701
00:24:28,355 --> 00:24:29,015
was injustice.

702
00:24:29,394 --> 00:24:31,789
There's, to me, it's just it's a very

703
00:24:32,029 --> 00:24:34,190
it's a I don't know. That that space

704
00:24:34,190 --> 00:24:35,710
is just such a hard space. Whereas for

705
00:24:35,710 --> 00:24:37,470
the guys, it's like, I really feel like

706
00:24:37,470 --> 00:24:39,150
if you're getting into good recovery, I can

707
00:24:39,150 --> 00:24:40,910
find this tribe. I can get I can

708
00:24:40,910 --> 00:24:43,009
get men who understand. I can get,

709
00:24:43,384 --> 00:24:45,065
I I think for us, it's easier to

710
00:24:45,065 --> 00:24:47,704
get a secondary spotlight for us and then

711
00:24:47,704 --> 00:24:49,384
put the relational one on them, in my

712
00:24:49,384 --> 00:24:51,404
in my opinion. I think for them, it's

713
00:24:51,944 --> 00:24:52,424
they don't

714
00:24:53,144 --> 00:24:54,984
it's just a different container. They're they're pissed

715
00:24:54,984 --> 00:24:57,304
this happened. They shouldn't have to do 10

716
00:24:57,304 --> 00:24:57,804
times

717
00:24:58,130 --> 00:24:59,970
the recovery work that we have to do.

718
00:24:59,970 --> 00:25:02,070
It's unfair. They never wanted this.

719
00:25:02,769 --> 00:25:05,090
How you you did this for decades upon

720
00:25:05,090 --> 00:25:07,410
decades. Now we have kids. We have our

721
00:25:07,410 --> 00:25:09,009
retirement's time. I mean, it's just a I

722
00:25:09,009 --> 00:25:11,170
think the container for them is just like,

723
00:25:11,170 --> 00:25:12,710
ugh, this is such BS.

724
00:25:13,065 --> 00:25:14,744
Like like like, gosh dang it. Why did

725
00:25:14,744 --> 00:25:16,744
you have to ruin something so good? And

726
00:25:16,744 --> 00:25:18,184
so I just want the guys to understand,

727
00:25:18,184 --> 00:25:18,684
like,

728
00:25:18,984 --> 00:25:20,825
we knew this was going on the whole

729
00:25:20,825 --> 00:25:21,325
time.

730
00:25:21,704 --> 00:25:23,964
It's a lot easier for us to, like,

731
00:25:24,664 --> 00:25:27,065
get into recovery. And so I think I

732
00:25:27,065 --> 00:25:28,230
just wanted to re,

733
00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:30,789
center what Tammy said. In no way are

734
00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:33,609
we saying screw you. It's all about her.

735
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:36,230
I'm saying it's a lot again, I don't

736
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:37,429
wanna use the word easy because I don't

737
00:25:37,429 --> 00:25:38,869
think it's easy. I think there are a

738
00:25:38,869 --> 00:25:39,769
lot of avenues

739
00:25:40,309 --> 00:25:41,049
for us

740
00:25:41,384 --> 00:25:43,625
to get into a place where we can

741
00:25:43,625 --> 00:25:45,625
have a spotlight with our boys and our

742
00:25:45,625 --> 00:25:47,865
therapists and our recovery team. Whereas for her,

743
00:25:47,865 --> 00:25:49,164
I think it's just like

744
00:25:49,545 --> 00:25:51,464
she need to me, any light that we

745
00:25:51,464 --> 00:25:53,945
can shine on her, I would highly recommend

746
00:25:53,945 --> 00:25:56,099
doing that because it's just she needs it.

747
00:25:56,099 --> 00:25:58,200
I mean, it is just she needs all

748
00:25:58,420 --> 00:25:59,859
all the light that we can give, she

749
00:25:59,859 --> 00:26:01,619
needs it. I guess that's my best way

750
00:26:01,619 --> 00:26:03,700
of just kind of encapsulating it. So but

751
00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:04,759
I do wanna just

752
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:08,099
say one more time, don't ignore your feelings.

753
00:26:08,099 --> 00:26:09,619
Because I would say for guys, this is

754
00:26:09,619 --> 00:26:10,119
incredibly

755
00:26:10,875 --> 00:26:14,095
traumatizing, it's it's wildly embarrassing, shocking,

756
00:26:15,355 --> 00:26:15,855
lonely,

757
00:26:17,115 --> 00:26:18,714
you know, you're going through your own stuff

758
00:26:18,714 --> 00:26:20,795
too. I would just say, you know, Tammy's

759
00:26:20,795 --> 00:26:22,829
not saying ignore it. Tammy's saying, hey, like,

760
00:26:22,829 --> 00:26:23,730
you know, there's avenues for this

761
00:26:24,669 --> 00:26:26,429
here. But, again, in the relationship, I agree

762
00:26:26,429 --> 00:26:28,190
with you. I think when I took tried

763
00:26:28,190 --> 00:26:30,829
to fight back the spotlight, Tammy, things went

764
00:26:30,829 --> 00:26:32,669
very poorly, because I gave it to her

765
00:26:32,669 --> 00:26:34,109
for, like, nine months, and then I kind

766
00:26:34,109 --> 00:26:36,349
of, I don't know, got jealous and wanted

767
00:26:36,349 --> 00:26:38,355
it to be a little bit on me.

768
00:26:38,434 --> 00:26:40,835
And I really did. Things things sputtered during

769
00:26:40,835 --> 00:26:42,515
that phase. I I tried to take it

770
00:26:42,515 --> 00:26:44,674
back a little too early. Now I would

771
00:26:44,674 --> 00:26:46,134
say just last thing,

772
00:26:46,595 --> 00:26:48,615
you guys can kinda like share it eventually

773
00:26:48,674 --> 00:26:50,595
too. So like that there is this kinda

774
00:26:50,595 --> 00:26:52,470
cool phase where it isn't just her. I

775
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:53,710
mean, she there's a lot of phases where

776
00:26:53,710 --> 00:26:55,349
I got it on me a lot more,

777
00:26:55,349 --> 00:26:57,109
and she put it on me. But I

778
00:26:57,109 --> 00:26:58,630
but I do. I I I love I

779
00:26:58,630 --> 00:27:00,789
love I love that analogy. I haven't, I

780
00:27:00,789 --> 00:27:03,190
haven't quite worded it, have heard somebody word

781
00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:04,664
it like that. So I appreciate that.

782
00:27:05,225 --> 00:27:06,825
Well and I can I speak to that

783
00:27:06,825 --> 00:27:08,984
a little bit? Yeah. Because I do I

784
00:27:08,984 --> 00:27:11,785
totally agree. You have to focus on your

785
00:27:11,785 --> 00:27:14,265
emotions. Mhmm. Like, that is that is the

786
00:27:14,265 --> 00:27:16,424
route to healing. You have to get in

787
00:27:16,424 --> 00:27:18,664
touch with yourself and your emotions and know

788
00:27:18,664 --> 00:27:20,339
what's going on and learn how to handle

789
00:27:20,339 --> 00:27:20,839
them.

790
00:27:21,220 --> 00:27:21,619
So

791
00:27:22,019 --> 00:27:22,519
absolutely.

792
00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:24,359
So I'm glad you caught that,

793
00:27:24,740 --> 00:27:26,660
but it's not her. It's not with her.

794
00:27:26,660 --> 00:27:28,660
Correct. Yeah. Correct. Right. And what you're saying,

795
00:27:28,660 --> 00:27:30,759
get a tribe of guys, get a therapist,

796
00:27:31,140 --> 00:27:33,380
and dig in deep and absolutely feel them

797
00:27:33,380 --> 00:27:35,835
because they are important. You are important.

798
00:27:36,634 --> 00:27:39,194
But within the within the dynamic of this,

799
00:27:39,194 --> 00:27:40,714
she is the one that is hurt, and

800
00:27:40,714 --> 00:27:42,474
you're the one that hurt her. Yeah. And

801
00:27:42,474 --> 00:27:43,674
I and I and I love I love

802
00:27:43,674 --> 00:27:45,835
how you called it spotlight rather than, like,

803
00:27:45,835 --> 00:27:47,835
a one up thing because I do. It's

804
00:27:47,835 --> 00:27:50,154
it's a I love spotlight. I think that's

805
00:27:50,154 --> 00:27:51,134
the point is,

806
00:27:51,769 --> 00:27:54,409
again, it's not this crazy we're not asking

807
00:27:54,409 --> 00:27:56,329
that for this unhealthy dynamic. That's not what

808
00:27:56,329 --> 00:27:58,089
Tammy's saying. I I like the word spotlight,

809
00:27:58,089 --> 00:28:00,009
Tammy. I like that. It's like it's like

810
00:28:00,009 --> 00:28:01,609
let's shine that let's shine that light on

811
00:28:01,609 --> 00:28:03,130
her for sure. I I really like that

812
00:28:03,130 --> 00:28:04,964
analogy. I think that's out of all the

813
00:28:04,964 --> 00:28:06,964
ones I've heard, it's it's probably my favorite

814
00:28:06,964 --> 00:28:09,605
one. Right? I do. I like that. Well

815
00:28:09,684 --> 00:28:11,365
and what I hear you kind of alluding

816
00:28:11,365 --> 00:28:13,045
to a lot is the power dynamics. Yep.

817
00:28:13,045 --> 00:28:15,065
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. And so

818
00:28:15,365 --> 00:28:17,525
what I want to for those listening, what

819
00:28:17,525 --> 00:28:18,585
I would want to,

820
00:28:19,845 --> 00:28:22,159
offer a different way of looking at it

821
00:28:22,460 --> 00:28:25,019
is while you were acting out, power is

822
00:28:25,019 --> 00:28:27,899
the ability to influence Yeah. Or the ability

823
00:28:27,899 --> 00:28:29,200
to resist influence.

824
00:28:29,819 --> 00:28:31,899
So when you were acting out and she

825
00:28:31,899 --> 00:28:32,720
didn't know,

826
00:28:33,075 --> 00:28:35,794
you had all the power. Mhmm. And she

827
00:28:35,794 --> 00:28:37,554
she had no idea. She thought it was

828
00:28:37,554 --> 00:28:40,115
equal. The reality is you had all the

829
00:28:40,115 --> 00:28:42,755
power. Or if she would catch you at

830
00:28:42,755 --> 00:28:44,355
times and she would say don't ever do

831
00:28:44,355 --> 00:28:46,529
that again and whatnot, and you say okay,

832
00:28:46,609 --> 00:28:48,609
But you still do it. It'll have all

833
00:28:48,609 --> 00:28:49,590
the power. Mhmm.

834
00:28:50,130 --> 00:28:52,369
When things blow up, a lot of men

835
00:28:52,369 --> 00:28:55,170
come into the recovery period feeling like they

836
00:28:55,170 --> 00:28:57,410
started on equal ground and now feeling, boy,

837
00:28:57,410 --> 00:28:59,410
she's stepping into her power and she's above

838
00:28:59,410 --> 00:29:02,154
me. That's not what's happening. Mhmm. It's that

839
00:29:02,154 --> 00:29:04,554
you started way above her. You had all

840
00:29:04,554 --> 00:29:05,214
the power.

841
00:29:05,515 --> 00:29:07,855
And now to equalize that for the relationship

842
00:29:07,994 --> 00:29:09,994
to be healthy, she has to step into

843
00:29:09,994 --> 00:29:12,075
it. And it will probably even be a

844
00:29:12,075 --> 00:29:13,994
little bit more for a while in this

845
00:29:13,994 --> 00:29:15,615
phase, but not forever.

846
00:29:16,289 --> 00:29:19,410
Right? But but that's really important that you

847
00:29:19,410 --> 00:29:19,910
understand

848
00:29:20,210 --> 00:29:22,850
that, one, she doesn't like having the power

849
00:29:22,850 --> 00:29:25,250
most of the time. But, two, it was

850
00:29:25,250 --> 00:29:27,490
never equal playing field. You always have the

851
00:29:27,490 --> 00:29:29,509
power. And if you want a healthy relationship,

852
00:29:30,394 --> 00:29:31,914
she has to be able to step up

853
00:29:31,914 --> 00:29:33,194
and you have to be able to come

854
00:29:33,194 --> 00:29:34,875
down. And Tammy, I like that you I

855
00:29:34,875 --> 00:29:36,554
like you that you brought that up because

856
00:29:36,554 --> 00:29:39,194
I do often wonder, especially with my guys

857
00:29:39,194 --> 00:29:41,434
in my population, let's you know, guys, I

858
00:29:41,434 --> 00:29:43,450
I mean this in the nicest way, but

859
00:29:43,450 --> 00:29:45,289
we you know, one thing I definitely have

860
00:29:45,289 --> 00:29:46,029
come to realize

861
00:29:46,490 --> 00:29:46,990
was

862
00:29:47,529 --> 00:29:49,369
I, and I'm not gonna project this onto

863
00:29:49,369 --> 00:29:50,909
other men, but I certainly

864
00:29:51,929 --> 00:29:52,429
unknowingly

865
00:29:52,730 --> 00:29:54,349
took advantage of her codependence

866
00:29:55,335 --> 00:29:58,154
in my, you know, kind of business entrepreneurial

867
00:29:58,535 --> 00:29:59,035
agenda,

868
00:29:59,575 --> 00:30:01,335
was not my intent. And and one would

869
00:30:01,335 --> 00:30:02,855
argue it actually kinda, like, worked out a

870
00:30:02,855 --> 00:30:05,434
little harmoniously. Right? She's, you know, supported,

871
00:30:05,894 --> 00:30:07,815
me on a lot of these ventures. And,

872
00:30:08,375 --> 00:30:09,894
but I I think you brought something up

873
00:30:09,894 --> 00:30:11,240
that I think is I'd ask all the

874
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,200
guys to sit with is is the power

875
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,720
dynamic really uneven? How how uneven is it

876
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,200
really? Or are you feeling somebody who is

877
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,000
now asking for the same things that you

878
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,000
were asking the whole time, and you're like,

879
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,220
woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Hey.

880
00:30:25,555 --> 00:30:27,234
You were supposed to, like, sit back here,

881
00:30:27,234 --> 00:30:29,154
and I got to do whatever. I and

882
00:30:29,154 --> 00:30:30,914
so I think you bring up a good

883
00:30:30,914 --> 00:30:32,755
point, Tammy. I wonder I saw I do

884
00:30:32,755 --> 00:30:35,634
sometimes wonder if we feel as if the

885
00:30:35,634 --> 00:30:39,015
power dynamic is act is incredibly lopsided when

886
00:30:39,169 --> 00:30:40,609
I think to your point, I think a

887
00:30:40,609 --> 00:30:42,470
lot of times they just stepped into it,

888
00:30:42,609 --> 00:30:44,929
and we're not used to it feeling equal.

889
00:30:45,089 --> 00:30:46,609
Now again, I'm not I'm not projecting on

890
00:30:46,609 --> 00:30:48,369
that. Some for some guys, it might it

891
00:30:48,369 --> 00:30:49,970
might actually be lopsided. So I'm not I'm

892
00:30:49,970 --> 00:30:51,794
not saying that's always the case, but be

893
00:30:51,794 --> 00:30:53,394
open to the idea that it may not

894
00:30:53,394 --> 00:30:55,554
be as lopsided as you as you think.

895
00:30:55,554 --> 00:30:56,835
My wife, you know, you know, I bring

896
00:30:56,835 --> 00:30:58,514
that up, Tammy. My wife said that. She

897
00:30:58,514 --> 00:30:59,174
was like,

898
00:30:59,474 --> 00:31:01,075
I don't think it's that way. She's like,

899
00:31:01,075 --> 00:31:02,855
I think you're just not used to me,

900
00:31:03,875 --> 00:31:05,234
stick it, you know, because it was some

901
00:31:05,234 --> 00:31:07,049
small stuff, Tammy. It was, no. I don't

902
00:31:07,049 --> 00:31:08,890
want that tonight. I would like to eat

903
00:31:08,890 --> 00:31:10,429
this. And it's like, woah.

904
00:31:10,730 --> 00:31:13,130
Hey. Like, you know, you never used to

905
00:31:13,130 --> 00:31:14,409
say that. Or, hey. Do you wanna go

906
00:31:14,409 --> 00:31:16,009
here? No. I think you should just go

907
00:31:16,009 --> 00:31:16,509
alone.

908
00:31:16,970 --> 00:31:18,970
I'm like, what do you mean go? So,

909
00:31:18,970 --> 00:31:21,015
like, I think I I I I I

910
00:31:21,015 --> 00:31:22,295
love that you brought that up as a

911
00:31:22,295 --> 00:31:24,375
little tangent because I do. I often wonder,

912
00:31:24,375 --> 00:31:26,134
is it really as outside as we think?

913
00:31:26,134 --> 00:31:27,494
Or are you just kinda used to, like,

914
00:31:27,494 --> 00:31:29,015
getting your way all the time? And then

915
00:31:29,015 --> 00:31:31,414
now that she's, like, being a human with

916
00:31:31,414 --> 00:31:34,049
needs and expressing them that you're like, oh,

917
00:31:34,049 --> 00:31:36,049
wow. She's totally changed. It's like, I don't

918
00:31:36,049 --> 00:31:37,829
know. This shirt kinda looks like healthy

919
00:31:38,210 --> 00:31:40,210
healthy behavior to me. And it always shut

920
00:31:40,210 --> 00:31:41,349
me up because it's like,

921
00:31:41,730 --> 00:31:43,730
my next response would be, can you be

922
00:31:43,730 --> 00:31:45,585
more codependent again? Right? And it's like, I

923
00:31:45,585 --> 00:31:47,825
can't say that. Right? Right. So, so I

924
00:31:47,825 --> 00:31:49,684
love that. Not to say that.

925
00:31:50,704 --> 00:31:53,105
Yeah. Alright. For her healing, just so you

926
00:31:53,105 --> 00:31:55,664
know, guys, she has to step into her

927
00:31:55,664 --> 00:31:58,440
power. She has to find her voice. And

928
00:31:58,440 --> 00:31:59,500
that is actually

929
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,539
a a positive sign of her healing.

930
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,039
And and as we get into phase three,

931
00:32:06,039 --> 00:32:08,839
if everybody is doing good, like, it does

932
00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:10,519
level out. Like, it's not always gonna be

933
00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:12,085
like this. It's not always gonna be like

934
00:32:12,085 --> 00:32:14,105
this. Well, and Tammy, you were one of

935
00:32:14,404 --> 00:32:16,744
the three or not one of four,

936
00:32:18,085 --> 00:32:20,164
authors who made it into my book. I

937
00:32:20,164 --> 00:32:22,484
actually quoted you, on page I can't remember

938
00:32:22,484 --> 00:32:23,684
what page it was. I was gonna look

939
00:32:23,684 --> 00:32:24,480
it up before, but

940
00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:27,440
you know, Tammy does a great job of

941
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:28,660
really highlighting

942
00:32:29,359 --> 00:32:31,460
how a lot of this stuff is not

943
00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:32,019
bad.

944
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,240
The quote that I pulled from you, Tammy,

945
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:34,740
was,

946
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:36,640
I can't remember where I got it, but

947
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:37,140
basically,

948
00:32:37,664 --> 00:32:39,345
you know, if they're mad, it's a good

949
00:32:39,345 --> 00:32:41,265
thing. You wanna like like, that is that,

950
00:32:41,265 --> 00:32:43,025
you know, guys always say, like, oh, this

951
00:32:43,025 --> 00:32:45,105
is we're on the verge of divorce. No.

952
00:32:45,105 --> 00:32:46,625
I mean, if she is doing that I

953
00:32:46,625 --> 00:32:48,384
mean, I had a client who was in

954
00:32:48,384 --> 00:32:49,825
my group, and he was showing me all

955
00:32:49,825 --> 00:32:52,484
these hours and hours and hours of of,

956
00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:53,590
investigation

957
00:32:54,130 --> 00:32:56,369
that his, partner was doing. And he was

958
00:32:56,369 --> 00:32:58,130
like, wow. She's crazy. She's gonna leave me.

959
00:32:58,130 --> 00:33:00,950
I'm like, brother, she just spent eighteen hours

960
00:33:01,090 --> 00:33:01,590
snooping.

961
00:33:01,970 --> 00:33:03,650
That is somebody who's trying to find a

962
00:33:03,650 --> 00:33:05,744
reason to stay. That is not that if

963
00:33:05,744 --> 00:33:07,664
she was out, she'd be spending eighteen hours

964
00:33:07,664 --> 00:33:10,305
hiring lawyers and planning her looking for short

965
00:33:10,305 --> 00:33:12,384
term rentals. I mean, she would not she

966
00:33:12,384 --> 00:33:14,625
would not be spending this on spying on

967
00:33:14,625 --> 00:33:16,545
you to assess her safety. So I I

968
00:33:16,545 --> 00:33:17,984
love that you do that, Tim. You do

969
00:33:17,984 --> 00:33:20,009
such a great job of, like, hey. Be

970
00:33:20,009 --> 00:33:22,250
careful. Like, let's let's let's see this accurately.

971
00:33:22,250 --> 00:33:23,609
You know, it's easy to it's easy to

972
00:33:23,609 --> 00:33:25,130
spin this in a in a delusional way

973
00:33:25,130 --> 00:33:26,570
and actually harm the marriage. Right? I think

974
00:33:26,570 --> 00:33:27,850
a lot of the time, you know, what

975
00:33:27,850 --> 00:33:29,930
these ladies are doing and Tammy reminds this.

976
00:33:29,930 --> 00:33:31,609
I wanted to mention this too before we

977
00:33:31,609 --> 00:33:32,990
get on to number three.

978
00:33:34,035 --> 00:33:36,775
Tammy offers this really neat I've attended,

979
00:33:37,475 --> 00:33:38,295
ever since,

980
00:33:38,674 --> 00:33:40,035
my wife and I were in,

981
00:33:40,595 --> 00:33:44,035
after discovery, I've attended the, betrayal healing conference.

982
00:33:44,035 --> 00:33:45,394
I wanted to speak to that real quick

983
00:33:45,394 --> 00:33:46,775
before we go to number three.

984
00:33:47,730 --> 00:33:49,329
Tammy, we'll have a we'll have a link

985
00:33:49,329 --> 00:33:51,009
down below so that you guys can sign

986
00:33:51,009 --> 00:33:52,130
up. But do you wanna just speak to

987
00:33:52,130 --> 00:33:53,809
real for couples who have not done that

988
00:33:53,809 --> 00:33:55,410
yet, do you wanna speak about, like, how

989
00:33:55,410 --> 00:33:57,029
it works and the mission of it?

990
00:33:57,730 --> 00:34:00,529
Yeah. So so the idea of the healing

991
00:34:00,529 --> 00:34:02,069
conference is really to gather.

992
00:34:06,884 --> 00:34:08,565
That are specifically for those who did the

993
00:34:08,565 --> 00:34:10,885
betraying as well for these interviews. So there's

994
00:34:10,885 --> 00:34:12,824
usually about 30 different speakers

995
00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:15,445
that I really handpick because my goal is

996
00:34:15,445 --> 00:34:16,425
to find safety,

997
00:34:16,809 --> 00:34:18,349
to bring in safe speakers,

998
00:34:18,730 --> 00:34:20,329
to bring in people who are hurting, and

999
00:34:20,329 --> 00:34:22,250
to have this. It's five days long. So

1000
00:34:22,250 --> 00:34:24,489
this year, it's gonna be January 26 through

1001
00:34:24,489 --> 00:34:25,230
the thirtieth.

1002
00:34:25,690 --> 00:34:26,510
And so

1003
00:34:27,690 --> 00:34:29,849
it's free to register for it. And, really,

1004
00:34:29,849 --> 00:34:31,449
what you're gonna get is you're gonna get

1005
00:34:31,449 --> 00:34:33,125
some really good,

1006
00:34:33,585 --> 00:34:36,545
solid, healthy guidance Mhmm. From some of the

1007
00:34:36,545 --> 00:34:38,864
experts in the field. Mhmm. It's a it's

1008
00:34:38,864 --> 00:34:40,625
a I I what my wife and I

1009
00:34:40,625 --> 00:34:41,764
did was we

1010
00:34:42,385 --> 00:34:43,985
purchased the I don't know if you're still

1011
00:34:43,985 --> 00:34:45,905
offering that this year, but we purchased the

1012
00:34:45,905 --> 00:34:47,664
VIP ticket. And the reason we did that

1013
00:34:47,664 --> 00:34:49,559
was we had access to,

1014
00:34:50,119 --> 00:34:51,800
to the conference. And so what we did

1015
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,640
was instead of because I because everybody listening

1016
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,519
to this can probably resonate. Oh my gosh.

1017
00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:57,720
I swear every dang TV show we watched,

1018
00:34:57,720 --> 00:34:59,740
there was an affair, there was a,

1019
00:35:00,364 --> 00:35:01,724
sex marker. There was,

1020
00:35:02,284 --> 00:35:04,284
infidelity of some kind. And it was just

1021
00:35:04,284 --> 00:35:06,045
like, oh my gosh. We can't even turn

1022
00:35:06,045 --> 00:35:08,204
on the dang television. So, but what we

1023
00:35:08,204 --> 00:35:11,244
did was we would watch, we every night,

1024
00:35:11,244 --> 00:35:13,804
instead of watching television, we would watch, these

1025
00:35:13,804 --> 00:35:15,699
different segments from the from the conference. So

1026
00:35:15,699 --> 00:35:17,140
that was that was a really cool thing.

1027
00:35:17,140 --> 00:35:19,140
So just a little little suggestion to the

1028
00:35:19,140 --> 00:35:20,900
people who are in the beginning phases of

1029
00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:23,300
this and, are struggling to find, what to

1030
00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:24,519
watch in the evenings.

1031
00:35:24,820 --> 00:35:26,660
This is this was a fun thing and,

1032
00:35:26,660 --> 00:35:28,674
you know, kind of birthed some conversations that

1033
00:35:28,674 --> 00:35:29,875
I think my wife and I wouldn't have

1034
00:35:29,875 --> 00:35:31,714
had if we didn't have it. So thank

1035
00:35:31,714 --> 00:35:33,474
you for putting that on. It's so cool

1036
00:35:33,474 --> 00:35:34,835
that it's free. And then for those of

1037
00:35:34,835 --> 00:35:36,755
you who want to have access to it,

1038
00:35:36,755 --> 00:35:38,194
she has she has options for that as

1039
00:35:38,194 --> 00:35:38,694
well.

1040
00:35:39,315 --> 00:35:42,114
So, Tammy, back to, phase three here. So

1041
00:35:42,114 --> 00:35:44,389
now this is the three options.

1042
00:35:44,690 --> 00:35:47,650
Redemption, divorce, and then option three, roommate. Is

1043
00:35:47,650 --> 00:35:49,010
that what you called it? I like that.

1044
00:35:49,010 --> 00:35:50,690
I do. Yeah. I think a lot of

1045
00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:52,769
people are accidental roommates. I'd love to speak

1046
00:35:52,769 --> 00:35:54,389
about that because I do think

1047
00:35:54,769 --> 00:35:57,514
phase three, what I've seen is it's interesting

1048
00:35:57,514 --> 00:35:59,514
to see these three. I think a lot

1049
00:35:59,514 --> 00:36:03,054
of people accidentally do roommate, Tammy, because they,

1050
00:36:04,875 --> 00:36:07,114
I think I think people end up doing

1051
00:36:07,114 --> 00:36:10,170
their own recovery because they are like, screw

1052
00:36:10,170 --> 00:36:11,769
this. Every time we do stuff together, it

1053
00:36:11,769 --> 00:36:13,609
doesn't work. And so, like, both like, the

1054
00:36:13,609 --> 00:36:15,849
guy gets in, like, super great recovery on

1055
00:36:15,849 --> 00:36:18,329
his own. And then she gets in super

1056
00:36:18,329 --> 00:36:18,989
great recovery

1057
00:36:19,289 --> 00:36:21,130
on her own. And then there's just kinda,

1058
00:36:21,130 --> 00:36:22,269
like, this meh

1059
00:36:22,664 --> 00:36:24,664
thing in the beginning. It's like, we're not

1060
00:36:24,824 --> 00:36:26,905
we haven't learned how to communicate, so we're

1061
00:36:26,905 --> 00:36:29,385
kind of avoiding each other because we don't

1062
00:36:29,385 --> 00:36:31,385
wanna get divorced. And when we do try

1063
00:36:31,385 --> 00:36:33,704
to heal, it doesn't go well. So I

1064
00:36:33,704 --> 00:36:35,465
think just to kinda bring that up, I

1065
00:36:35,465 --> 00:36:37,109
think for people I I don't know how

1066
00:36:37,109 --> 00:36:39,750
many people intend to become roommates. I think

1067
00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:40,489
they accidentally

1068
00:36:40,869 --> 00:36:43,269
become roommates. But so walk us through the

1069
00:36:43,269 --> 00:36:44,569
three. So if a guy's

1070
00:36:44,869 --> 00:36:46,889
if a guy's kind of looking at this,

1071
00:36:46,949 --> 00:36:48,089
if we're in the redemption

1072
00:36:48,389 --> 00:36:48,889
phase,

1073
00:36:50,184 --> 00:36:51,704
you know, what's that look like on her

1074
00:36:51,704 --> 00:36:53,385
then? What's that look like on on his

1075
00:36:53,385 --> 00:36:53,885
end?

1076
00:36:54,664 --> 00:36:56,824
Yeah. The redemption path is really where it

1077
00:36:56,824 --> 00:36:59,864
becomes obvious, like, okay. He's done good work

1078
00:36:59,864 --> 00:37:02,309
and he is safe enough, And we're gonna

1079
00:37:02,309 --> 00:37:04,809
start leaning back in, and we're gonna start,

1080
00:37:05,430 --> 00:37:07,289
healing the relationship, really.

1081
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:08,170
And,

1082
00:37:09,110 --> 00:37:12,329
guys, for for women, this is terrifying.

1083
00:37:13,269 --> 00:37:14,534
I call it the deer in the headlights

1084
00:37:14,694 --> 00:37:16,694
moments because there's this moment where women will

1085
00:37:16,694 --> 00:37:18,454
come into my office and their eyes are

1086
00:37:18,454 --> 00:37:20,534
huge, and they're like, I think I need

1087
00:37:20,534 --> 00:37:21,994
to start leaning back in.

1088
00:37:22,454 --> 00:37:23,275
And it is

1089
00:37:23,815 --> 00:37:24,315
terrifying.

1090
00:37:24,694 --> 00:37:26,855
And you need to understand that because all

1091
00:37:26,855 --> 00:37:28,694
this time up until now, she has been

1092
00:37:28,694 --> 00:37:29,194
protecting.

1093
00:37:29,780 --> 00:37:32,500
She has been very appropriately putting up boundaries

1094
00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:34,500
and setting up distance so you don't hurt

1095
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:35,400
our heart again.

1096
00:37:35,699 --> 00:37:38,659
And now she's seen enough of you that

1097
00:37:38,659 --> 00:37:39,400
she's like,

1098
00:37:39,859 --> 00:37:41,859
okay. Maybe he's safe. Maybe I can lean

1099
00:37:41,859 --> 00:37:43,380
back in. But she has to do, like,

1100
00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:44,440
a one eighty

1101
00:37:44,894 --> 00:37:47,474
and open her heart back that was absolutely

1102
00:37:47,614 --> 00:37:48,114
shattered.

1103
00:37:48,655 --> 00:37:50,994
So for you, what I would say is

1104
00:37:51,295 --> 00:37:54,335
have a lot of grace and a lot

1105
00:37:54,335 --> 00:37:57,339
of patience and a lot of empathy for

1106
00:37:57,339 --> 00:37:59,260
your wife. If she is choosing to open

1107
00:37:59,260 --> 00:38:01,260
her heart back to you after you shattered

1108
00:38:01,260 --> 00:38:02,239
it Mhmm.

1109
00:38:02,859 --> 00:38:05,119
Oh, that is such a big deal. Right?

1110
00:38:05,420 --> 00:38:07,819
So what I tell what I tell women

1111
00:38:07,819 --> 00:38:10,079
in this phase is you gotta go slow.

1112
00:38:10,775 --> 00:38:12,454
You gotta go slow because there's gonna be

1113
00:38:12,454 --> 00:38:14,235
a little bit, like, put a toe in,

1114
00:38:14,375 --> 00:38:15,434
see how he does,

1115
00:38:16,135 --> 00:38:17,515
see if he's still safe.

1116
00:38:17,815 --> 00:38:19,815
And if he's not, you pull back and

1117
00:38:19,815 --> 00:38:20,635
you get safe.

1118
00:38:21,015 --> 00:38:23,255
But if he is, then you can lean

1119
00:38:23,255 --> 00:38:23,929
in further.

1120
00:38:24,309 --> 00:38:25,989
And one thing I think it's important to

1121
00:38:25,989 --> 00:38:28,230
know that's really confusing for couples in this

1122
00:38:28,230 --> 00:38:30,309
phase two, or not this phase, but this

1123
00:38:30,309 --> 00:38:31,690
path of phase three,

1124
00:38:32,789 --> 00:38:35,589
is that there will be times where there

1125
00:38:35,589 --> 00:38:36,489
will be closeness.

1126
00:38:37,514 --> 00:38:39,775
And then after this beautiful closeness,

1127
00:38:40,394 --> 00:38:42,795
there's, like, this spring that shoots you out

1128
00:38:42,795 --> 00:38:45,755
of, like, okay. Okay. That was, like, that

1129
00:38:45,755 --> 00:38:47,355
was a lot, and now I'm feeling really

1130
00:38:47,355 --> 00:38:49,614
vulnerable. And so it can feel very confusing

1131
00:38:49,835 --> 00:38:51,630
for both sides to be like, okay, we

1132
00:38:51,630 --> 00:38:53,549
were just closed, and now I feel like

1133
00:38:53,549 --> 00:38:55,409
I just, like, get away from me. Like,

1134
00:38:55,630 --> 00:38:56,929
that's totally normal.

1135
00:38:57,309 --> 00:38:59,869
And it's just she is re she is

1136
00:38:59,869 --> 00:39:00,369
reintegrating,

1137
00:39:00,829 --> 00:39:03,309
and she's she's pushing past some of that

1138
00:39:03,309 --> 00:39:06,265
safety stuff. And it's very, very tender.

1139
00:39:07,045 --> 00:39:09,465
So this has to go slow.

1140
00:39:09,765 --> 00:39:11,224
This is not a, okay.

1141
00:39:11,765 --> 00:39:14,485
We're moving on. Great. Let's renew our vows,

1142
00:39:14,485 --> 00:39:17,525
and off we go. I don't recommend renewing

1143
00:39:17,525 --> 00:39:19,109
vows, by the way. Yeah.

1144
00:39:19,650 --> 00:39:21,969
That's a side note. I see people I

1145
00:39:21,969 --> 00:39:24,449
see men blow up life six months after

1146
00:39:24,449 --> 00:39:26,530
renewing vows. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Can you

1147
00:39:26,530 --> 00:39:29,409
imagine? Yeah. That's totally fair to go. Well,

1148
00:39:29,409 --> 00:39:31,250
and for my guys, a lot of my

1149
00:39:31,250 --> 00:39:32,869
guys, rebellion, defiance,

1150
00:39:33,664 --> 00:39:35,505
that is, like, a huge thing for them.

1151
00:39:35,505 --> 00:39:38,385
And so making, you know, sometimes these grand

1152
00:39:38,385 --> 00:39:41,425
gestures can actually have the wrong effect if

1153
00:39:41,425 --> 00:39:43,284
a lot of your parts

1154
00:39:43,585 --> 00:39:46,304
enjoy being bad, which I think are keeping

1155
00:39:46,304 --> 00:39:47,505
a secret. I think a lot of us

1156
00:39:47,505 --> 00:39:50,039
don't recognize how much some of that has

1157
00:39:50,039 --> 00:39:52,440
driven the compulsivity. And so, yeah, to your

1158
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,440
point to to have this grand gesture, it

1159
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:55,400
might not be a great thing.

1160
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,160
The one thing I wanna say on that

1161
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,059
redemption piece is, guys, don't do what,

1162
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,119
you know, and and this I think this

1163
00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:04,094
goes for every couple. Tammy, you can probably

1164
00:40:04,094 --> 00:40:05,695
tote I bet you you I bet you

1165
00:40:05,695 --> 00:40:07,855
you you can totally resonate with this. I

1166
00:40:07,855 --> 00:40:09,775
have this great comment from one of our

1167
00:40:09,775 --> 00:40:12,335
couple's therapists when we were in about, I

1168
00:40:12,335 --> 00:40:13,855
don't know, year one, year one and a

1169
00:40:13,855 --> 00:40:15,695
half. He said to us, and I think

1170
00:40:15,695 --> 00:40:17,875
this speaks the resendments today so well,

1171
00:40:19,429 --> 00:40:23,449
stop using today and yesterday as the data

1172
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:24,409
to project

1173
00:40:24,949 --> 00:40:27,269
where you guys are and where you guys

1174
00:40:27,269 --> 00:40:29,510
are gonna be. I think that was some

1175
00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:31,589
great advice because I think, like you said,

1176
00:40:31,589 --> 00:40:32,054
this

1177
00:40:33,375 --> 00:40:35,494
it's in this phase, there's a day where

1178
00:40:35,494 --> 00:40:36,694
she's like, oh my god. What am I

1179
00:40:36,694 --> 00:40:38,534
thinking? I shouldn't oh my god. I can't

1180
00:40:38,534 --> 00:40:40,295
believe it. I almost trusted him today. Like,

1181
00:40:40,295 --> 00:40:41,994
what was I thinking? Right? So it's like,

1182
00:40:42,135 --> 00:40:43,734
the guy can see that and then jump

1183
00:40:43,734 --> 00:40:45,989
to a conclusion. Oh, she'll never trust me

1184
00:40:45,989 --> 00:40:47,429
again. And I think one of the best

1185
00:40:47,429 --> 00:40:49,929
advice I got for this redemption phase was

1186
00:40:51,110 --> 00:40:53,429
day you know, every day at a time.

1187
00:40:53,429 --> 00:40:54,869
It's a you know? And don't let a

1188
00:40:54,869 --> 00:40:57,190
three day setback period think you that you

1189
00:40:57,190 --> 00:40:59,030
guys are slipping back. Because I do think

1190
00:40:59,030 --> 00:40:59,530
we

1191
00:41:00,364 --> 00:41:02,444
sabotage by saying, you know what? Screw it.

1192
00:41:02,444 --> 00:41:03,964
I thought I thought we were going here,

1193
00:41:03,964 --> 00:41:06,125
and she's clearly hasn't she she clearly doesn't

1194
00:41:06,125 --> 00:41:07,405
wanna get over there. It's just I think

1195
00:41:07,405 --> 00:41:08,864
we draw so many conclusions

1196
00:41:09,484 --> 00:41:11,484
by the bad days or even the good

1197
00:41:11,484 --> 00:41:12,804
days in this phase. I think we gotta

1198
00:41:12,804 --> 00:41:15,000
be careful doing that because the redemption phase

1199
00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:17,159
is full of I mean, shoot, Tammy. I

1200
00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:18,679
would even say we had some of our

1201
00:41:18,679 --> 00:41:21,639
lowest of lows in this phase. Almost lower

1202
00:41:21,639 --> 00:41:23,079
than I mean, days where we are like,

1203
00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:24,199
oh my gosh. I think I think we're

1204
00:41:24,199 --> 00:41:26,119
gonna get worse. I mean, it really was.

1205
00:41:26,119 --> 00:41:27,880
And then here we go two weeks later,

1206
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,744
we're closer than ever. So I just, you

1207
00:41:29,744 --> 00:41:31,025
guys, it's a, you know, they call it

1208
00:41:31,025 --> 00:41:32,224
a roller coaster. I had a guy the

1209
00:41:32,224 --> 00:41:33,824
other day say, hey. No roller coaster. It's

1210
00:41:33,824 --> 00:41:35,984
a yo yo. It is straight up and

1211
00:41:35,984 --> 00:41:38,144
straight down. There's no, you know, there's no

1212
00:41:38,144 --> 00:41:40,065
ramp. It's I love you, and then six

1213
00:41:40,065 --> 00:41:42,545
hours later, it's, you're a monster. I can't

1214
00:41:42,625 --> 00:41:44,000
you know, it's like it's just like, oh

1215
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,440
my gosh. Make up your mind. But I

1216
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:46,719
I just wanted to drop that in there.

1217
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,159
That was one of the best pieces of

1218
00:41:48,159 --> 00:41:49,380
advice we got was,

1219
00:41:49,839 --> 00:41:53,199
guys, be so careful drawing conclusions about today

1220
00:41:53,199 --> 00:41:54,659
or yesterday. Like,

1221
00:41:55,039 --> 00:41:56,639
why not be open to the idea that

1222
00:41:56,639 --> 00:41:58,675
three days from now could be the highest

1223
00:41:58,675 --> 00:41:59,954
of highs you guys have ever had? And

1224
00:41:59,954 --> 00:42:01,894
I think anybody in betrayal, like, come on.

1225
00:42:02,034 --> 00:42:04,214
You know that that's a total possibility.

1226
00:42:05,074 --> 00:42:06,355
I wanna touch on I don't wanna talk

1227
00:42:06,355 --> 00:42:07,954
too much about it, but, just because the

1228
00:42:07,954 --> 00:42:08,994
people listening to this,

1229
00:42:09,530 --> 00:42:10,969
may or may not be in this phase.

1230
00:42:10,969 --> 00:42:12,889
But, I do wanna touch on divorce because

1231
00:42:12,889 --> 00:42:15,210
I think there is a there is a

1232
00:42:15,210 --> 00:42:17,769
there is a method to splitting up in

1233
00:42:17,769 --> 00:42:20,570
a healthy way. Can you just kinda touch

1234
00:42:20,570 --> 00:42:22,329
on how how you kind of address this

1235
00:42:22,329 --> 00:42:23,070
in the book?

1236
00:42:24,464 --> 00:42:26,085
So, really, for divorce,

1237
00:42:26,784 --> 00:42:28,005
I do a lot of validation

1238
00:42:28,304 --> 00:42:30,704
for her and because it's grieving, and it's

1239
00:42:30,704 --> 00:42:33,025
another trauma. But what I would say that

1240
00:42:33,025 --> 00:42:34,724
I think it's probably most applicable

1241
00:42:35,025 --> 00:42:35,924
for your audience

1242
00:42:36,385 --> 00:42:37,125
is that

1243
00:42:38,210 --> 00:42:40,469
almost none of the women I've worked with

1244
00:42:40,530 --> 00:42:42,789
actually wanted to get divorced. Mhmm. Mhmm.

1245
00:42:43,089 --> 00:42:44,869
Mhmm. Most women

1246
00:42:45,250 --> 00:42:46,630
don't want to get divorced.

1247
00:42:47,089 --> 00:42:48,530
They just want you to do the work.

1248
00:42:48,530 --> 00:42:50,069
So for your guys listening,

1249
00:42:50,474 --> 00:42:52,315
do your work, and, hopefully, you won't ever

1250
00:42:52,315 --> 00:42:54,075
have to go down this path and this

1251
00:42:54,075 --> 00:42:56,315
route. Yeah. Let me ask this let me

1252
00:42:56,315 --> 00:42:58,795
ask this, though, because I would say there

1253
00:42:58,795 --> 00:43:00,635
is this phase, and I'm sure you've seen

1254
00:43:00,635 --> 00:43:02,954
it. I don't know. Right around two year

1255
00:43:02,954 --> 00:43:03,434
mark.

1256
00:43:03,835 --> 00:43:05,880
There's one of the guys that are like,

1257
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:07,960
screw this. I'm done. I don't I don't

1258
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,960
know if I wanna do this anymore. What

1259
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,559
would you say to the men who have

1260
00:43:11,559 --> 00:43:13,319
kinda hit that phase where they're like, I'm

1261
00:43:13,319 --> 00:43:15,159
done. I can't I can't do this anymore.

1262
00:43:15,159 --> 00:43:17,319
I now want the divorce. You know, for

1263
00:43:17,319 --> 00:43:18,599
two years, they're like, don't leave me. Don't

1264
00:43:18,599 --> 00:43:19,944
leave me. Don't leave me. Then they get

1265
00:43:19,944 --> 00:43:20,984
into this phase where it's like, you know

1266
00:43:20,984 --> 00:43:22,744
what? Screw it. I think I'd be better

1267
00:43:22,744 --> 00:43:23,244
off,

1268
00:43:23,784 --> 00:43:25,864
you know, maybe just starting over with with

1269
00:43:25,864 --> 00:43:27,864
someone else or maybe never getting remarried. What

1270
00:43:27,864 --> 00:43:28,984
would you say to the guys in that

1271
00:43:28,984 --> 00:43:31,304
phase? Because I also every time I've noticed

1272
00:43:31,304 --> 00:43:32,744
that they're in that phase, Tammy, it doesn't

1273
00:43:32,744 --> 00:43:34,859
seem like a healthy way of thinking, like,

1274
00:43:34,859 --> 00:43:35,819
99%

1275
00:43:35,819 --> 00:43:38,219
of the time. Seems very egoic to me.

1276
00:43:38,219 --> 00:43:40,139
What would what would you say about how

1277
00:43:40,139 --> 00:43:41,739
to handle that phase if you're a guy

1278
00:43:41,739 --> 00:43:43,760
who's, like, flirting with the idea of quitting?

1279
00:43:44,940 --> 00:43:45,440
So

1280
00:43:46,059 --> 00:43:47,579
then I would say if you're at that

1281
00:43:47,579 --> 00:43:48,880
phase at two years,

1282
00:43:49,315 --> 00:43:51,554
I don't think you've done your work. Oh,

1283
00:43:51,554 --> 00:43:53,155
I love that. I love that. Can you

1284
00:43:53,155 --> 00:43:54,454
say one more thing? Why?

1285
00:43:55,315 --> 00:43:55,815
Because

1286
00:43:56,195 --> 00:43:58,454
it doesn't take that long to get

1287
00:43:59,155 --> 00:44:01,635
sober and to get healthy and to get

1288
00:44:01,635 --> 00:44:02,099
safe.

1289
00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:04,760
And if you are safe and healthy

1290
00:44:05,140 --> 00:44:05,960
and empathetic

1291
00:44:06,660 --> 00:44:09,140
and you have broken and you're not holding

1292
00:44:09,140 --> 00:44:11,539
back some of that resentment and anger towards

1293
00:44:11,539 --> 00:44:14,280
your wife, then at two years, you probably

1294
00:44:14,340 --> 00:44:16,695
won't be in that phase. So if you're

1295
00:44:16,695 --> 00:44:18,775
there and if you're like, I'm just done

1296
00:44:18,775 --> 00:44:20,075
with this, then I would say,

1297
00:44:20,454 --> 00:44:21,515
with all respect,

1298
00:44:22,375 --> 00:44:24,215
you need to look inside and you need

1299
00:44:24,215 --> 00:44:26,775
to figure out what where that fight inside

1300
00:44:26,775 --> 00:44:28,380
of you still is, and you need to

1301
00:44:28,380 --> 00:44:30,539
do deeper work. It's true, Tammy. I I

1302
00:44:30,539 --> 00:44:32,299
think you said it. I what I noticed

1303
00:44:32,299 --> 00:44:34,079
in that phase because I'll be full transparency,

1304
00:44:34,219 --> 00:44:35,579
I was that I was that guy. I

1305
00:44:35,579 --> 00:44:37,019
was like, you know what? I'm I'm I

1306
00:44:37,019 --> 00:44:38,460
I can't I I I'm not interested in

1307
00:44:38,460 --> 00:44:39,199
this anymore.

1308
00:44:39,739 --> 00:44:41,440
And I will tell you right now, Tammy,

1309
00:44:41,739 --> 00:44:42,400
it was

1310
00:44:43,364 --> 00:44:44,905
it was my resentments,

1311
00:44:45,284 --> 00:44:47,684
even some some splash of some contempt. I

1312
00:44:47,684 --> 00:44:49,125
mean, for those of you who've looked into

1313
00:44:49,125 --> 00:44:50,565
some of the Gottman stuff, I mean, it

1314
00:44:50,565 --> 00:44:52,184
was it was that. It was, like,

1315
00:44:52,644 --> 00:44:54,405
to a t, but it was I was

1316
00:44:54,405 --> 00:44:57,144
making it about her, and the truth was

1317
00:44:57,364 --> 00:44:57,864
I

1318
00:44:58,269 --> 00:44:59,390
and so that's what I would say all

1319
00:44:59,390 --> 00:45:00,750
the guys is, hey. Just make sure you

1320
00:45:00,750 --> 00:45:02,269
clean up some of that stuff. I don't

1321
00:45:02,349 --> 00:45:04,130
I wouldn't have the resentment and contempt

1322
00:45:04,510 --> 00:45:06,750
drive the divorce. If if it truly isn't

1323
00:45:06,750 --> 00:45:09,250
working and there's other reasons why, okay.

1324
00:45:09,550 --> 00:45:11,070
But at the same time, I mean, just

1325
00:45:11,070 --> 00:45:12,670
make sure I agree with you. Make sure

1326
00:45:12,670 --> 00:45:13,329
it's not,

1327
00:45:14,135 --> 00:45:16,135
resentment and contempt because I at the same

1328
00:45:16,135 --> 00:45:17,494
time, I think a lot of things that

1329
00:45:17,494 --> 00:45:20,054
were said and then and how the relationship

1330
00:45:20,054 --> 00:45:21,114
is kind of functioning,

1331
00:45:22,214 --> 00:45:23,414
I don't know. I don't think there's a

1332
00:45:23,414 --> 00:45:25,655
lot of truth to use that data as

1333
00:45:25,655 --> 00:45:27,255
leverage to leave her. I would be very

1334
00:45:27,255 --> 00:45:29,699
careful. I would be very careful using her

1335
00:45:29,699 --> 00:45:32,659
trauma against the relationship to make a judgment.

1336
00:45:32,659 --> 00:45:34,099
That's that's one thing I've had to remind

1337
00:45:34,099 --> 00:45:36,340
myself is, is this her, or is this

1338
00:45:36,340 --> 00:45:38,420
the byproduct of kind of the situation that

1339
00:45:38,420 --> 00:45:40,179
I put her in? And do I wanna

1340
00:45:40,179 --> 00:45:40,679
leave

1341
00:45:41,244 --> 00:45:43,644
because of the byproduct that I caused. And

1342
00:45:43,644 --> 00:45:45,085
again, you know, I'm not I'm not telling

1343
00:45:45,085 --> 00:45:46,445
any couple what to do, but I just

1344
00:45:46,525 --> 00:45:48,445
I would ask guys to be do your

1345
00:45:48,445 --> 00:45:50,445
work and make sure that you really wanna

1346
00:45:50,445 --> 00:45:52,364
resent her for the things that you resent

1347
00:45:52,364 --> 00:45:53,724
her for. That you really can look at

1348
00:45:53,724 --> 00:45:55,324
your therapist and say, I resent her for

1349
00:45:55,324 --> 00:45:57,250
this. I don't wanna get over it. Cool.

1350
00:45:57,250 --> 00:45:59,670
Alright. That's fine. What I found, Tammy, is

1351
00:46:00,450 --> 00:46:02,210
10 out of 10 things I resented her

1352
00:46:02,210 --> 00:46:04,930
for, I did not feel good resenting her

1353
00:46:04,930 --> 00:46:06,289
for those things. It would it was just

1354
00:46:06,289 --> 00:46:07,910
unfair. You know, it's it's it's

1355
00:46:08,210 --> 00:46:09,885
to have that destroy the mirror just doesn't

1356
00:46:09,885 --> 00:46:11,485
sit right with me. Right? So, anyways, I

1357
00:46:11,485 --> 00:46:12,684
I thought that was a beautiful thing to

1358
00:46:12,684 --> 00:46:13,344
bring up.

1359
00:46:13,724 --> 00:46:15,644
And then roommate phase. You know, this is

1360
00:46:15,644 --> 00:46:17,724
so funny. I I haven't really heard this

1361
00:46:17,724 --> 00:46:20,125
spoken about, but it's so freaking true. I

1362
00:46:20,125 --> 00:46:22,445
think I think there's more roommates out there

1363
00:46:22,445 --> 00:46:24,764
than probably any of those other freaking phases.

1364
00:46:24,764 --> 00:46:27,610
Seriously, I almost every guy I meet is

1365
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:30,309
in the roommate phase. So, yes. Speak to

1366
00:46:30,309 --> 00:46:32,230
how you address that. I mean, what a

1367
00:46:32,230 --> 00:46:34,309
what a what a vague and murky phase

1368
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:36,869
that's almost so unique to the coupleship. How

1369
00:46:36,869 --> 00:46:38,309
do you how do you write that in

1370
00:46:38,309 --> 00:46:38,890
a book

1371
00:46:39,355 --> 00:46:41,295
and help people who are in such a

1372
00:46:41,355 --> 00:46:42,735
wide variety of situations?

1373
00:46:43,755 --> 00:46:45,835
Well, what I say for the roommate phase

1374
00:46:45,835 --> 00:46:48,555
is this happens when he's not fully doing

1375
00:46:48,555 --> 00:46:49,295
his work,

1376
00:46:49,835 --> 00:46:52,735
and she doesn't wanna leave for whatever reason.

1377
00:46:52,954 --> 00:46:55,779
Usually, it's finances or his kids. Usually, she

1378
00:46:55,779 --> 00:46:57,559
doesn't usually, she's kinda trapped.

1379
00:46:59,059 --> 00:47:01,059
But but what I I use a hand

1380
00:47:01,059 --> 00:47:03,380
motion for this, and it's almost like there's

1381
00:47:03,380 --> 00:47:03,859
just

1382
00:47:04,339 --> 00:47:05,799
I may this probably won't

1383
00:47:06,739 --> 00:47:08,500
come off well for a podcast, but it's

1384
00:47:08,500 --> 00:47:11,664
just there's this there's this unspoken kind

1385
00:47:12,765 --> 00:47:13,585
of ruts

1386
00:47:13,965 --> 00:47:15,824
that they find themselves in.

1387
00:47:16,445 --> 00:47:16,945
And

1388
00:47:18,045 --> 00:47:19,164
this is actually

1389
00:47:19,485 --> 00:47:22,765
I worry about these women more than anyone

1390
00:47:22,765 --> 00:47:25,820
else. Even when it even, like, when life

1391
00:47:25,820 --> 00:47:28,400
initially breaks up and that initial absolute shattering

1392
00:47:28,539 --> 00:47:30,559
of your heart because this

1393
00:47:31,019 --> 00:47:32,559
is where women's lights

1394
00:47:32,940 --> 00:47:35,340
go out. Mhmm. This is where they start

1395
00:47:35,340 --> 00:47:36,320
to die inside.

1396
00:47:37,099 --> 00:47:39,554
And that to me is the most tragic

1397
00:47:39,554 --> 00:47:42,114
thing that could possibly happen in this. Mhmm.

1398
00:47:42,114 --> 00:47:43,795
Far more Can I add too that I

1399
00:47:43,795 --> 00:47:45,954
see men die in this phase too? I

1400
00:47:45,954 --> 00:47:47,795
just see I see all the life gets

1401
00:47:47,795 --> 00:47:49,875
sucked out of both parties in this, and

1402
00:47:49,875 --> 00:47:51,635
that is scary because, I mean, if you're

1403
00:47:51,635 --> 00:47:52,135
lifeless,

1404
00:47:52,594 --> 00:47:54,695
ugh, what's gonna happen? Right? I mean,

1405
00:47:55,179 --> 00:47:56,699
yeah. But I but I I think I

1406
00:47:56,699 --> 00:47:58,059
see it in men too. I see them

1407
00:47:58,059 --> 00:47:58,719
just become

1408
00:47:59,739 --> 00:48:02,059
hollow and shells of themselves, and it's just

1409
00:48:02,059 --> 00:48:03,659
like I don't know. It's it is. It's

1410
00:48:03,659 --> 00:48:04,380
hard to watch.

1411
00:48:04,780 --> 00:48:06,219
It's really hard to watch. I don't know

1412
00:48:06,219 --> 00:48:07,659
if a marriage I mean, can you really

1413
00:48:07,659 --> 00:48:08,880
survive if you're lifeless?

1414
00:48:10,065 --> 00:48:11,824
Yeah. I don't know, but it's a pretty

1415
00:48:11,824 --> 00:48:14,065
miserable place to be. But when you're coming

1416
00:48:14,065 --> 00:48:14,885
out of betrayal,

1417
00:48:15,824 --> 00:48:18,304
this is really on him. Yeah. True. The

1418
00:48:18,304 --> 00:48:21,025
healing of the relationship is on him, and

1419
00:48:21,025 --> 00:48:22,644
the way to prevent this

1420
00:48:23,159 --> 00:48:25,480
is to do good work, is to really

1421
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,960
do that deep character work because you will

1422
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,199
not end up in this place Mhmm. If

1423
00:48:30,199 --> 00:48:32,519
he does the deep character work. So this

1424
00:48:32,519 --> 00:48:33,179
is preventable,

1425
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,480
and it is you can get out of

1426
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,159
it. But once you get once you're in

1427
00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:39,315
it, it takes a lot of momentum to

1428
00:48:39,315 --> 00:48:41,235
get out. It's a I I I I

1429
00:48:41,235 --> 00:48:42,835
think you did such a great job bringing

1430
00:48:42,835 --> 00:48:44,295
that up because I do. I think

1431
00:48:44,594 --> 00:48:45,954
and I and here's where I agree with

1432
00:48:45,954 --> 00:48:47,655
you that it is on the guys,

1433
00:48:48,675 --> 00:48:48,835
is

1434
00:48:49,569 --> 00:48:52,210
again, they're just looking for a freaking reason.

1435
00:48:52,210 --> 00:48:53,889
And so to me, yeah, if you if,

1436
00:48:53,889 --> 00:48:55,409
you know, if you if the reasons are

1437
00:48:55,409 --> 00:48:55,909
few,

1438
00:48:56,289 --> 00:48:57,730
you know, I I do agree with you.

1439
00:48:57,730 --> 00:48:59,969
It's like, I think their body starts to

1440
00:48:59,969 --> 00:49:00,789
wonder, like,

1441
00:49:01,250 --> 00:49:01,909
you know,

1442
00:49:02,594 --> 00:49:04,675
why am I staying? Why am I hoping

1443
00:49:04,675 --> 00:49:06,114
for something? You know? So I think I

1444
00:49:06,114 --> 00:49:07,954
agree with you. I think it's, like, give

1445
00:49:07,954 --> 00:49:10,195
her a freaking reason. And and to me,

1446
00:49:10,195 --> 00:49:11,795
it's really not that I I have never

1447
00:49:11,795 --> 00:49:13,074
found it that hard to give them a

1448
00:49:13,074 --> 00:49:14,755
reason because, guys, don't you want all this

1449
00:49:14,755 --> 00:49:16,160
stuff for your own life? And I think

1450
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:17,599
I think that's really what she's starting to

1451
00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:19,700
wonder in this roommate phase is, like,

1452
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:21,940
you know, is this really just recovery

1453
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,480
to you or do you really, you know,

1454
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,400
do you want this for yourself? I I

1455
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:27,920
I really I saw her kind of taking

1456
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,074
a different approach of, like, I'm just gonna

1457
00:49:30,074 --> 00:49:32,255
watch from afar and, like, assess, like,

1458
00:49:32,554 --> 00:49:35,034
how's how important is this to you? Right?

1459
00:49:35,034 --> 00:49:37,114
Are you just doing this because I'm telling

1460
00:49:37,114 --> 00:49:39,114
you to do it, or are you doing

1461
00:49:39,114 --> 00:49:41,034
this because whether we stay together or not,

1462
00:49:41,034 --> 00:49:42,474
you want this for your life? And I,

1463
00:49:42,474 --> 00:49:43,755
you know, I saw her measuring me on

1464
00:49:43,755 --> 00:49:45,299
a different a different standard.

1465
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:47,599
And, of course, my listeners are used to

1466
00:49:47,599 --> 00:49:49,599
this because I've done this before. You wanna

1467
00:49:49,599 --> 00:49:51,760
know number four? You gotta buy the book.

1468
00:49:52,079 --> 00:49:53,640
You know, what what are those what do

1469
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,119
you do with the rest of your life?

1470
00:49:55,119 --> 00:49:56,639
Exactly. I did this with my own book.

1471
00:49:56,639 --> 00:49:58,824
I my last chapter is our our legacy.

1472
00:49:58,824 --> 00:50:00,265
You know? What are you what are you

1473
00:50:00,265 --> 00:50:01,785
gonna leave? You're gonna be the guy who

1474
00:50:01,785 --> 00:50:04,265
lied to your life repetitively and broke marriage

1475
00:50:04,265 --> 00:50:06,744
after marriage and was locked in your office

1476
00:50:06,744 --> 00:50:08,985
masturbating and all this. Is that your legacy?

1477
00:50:08,985 --> 00:50:10,585
You're gonna be that guy? You know? Like

1478
00:50:10,585 --> 00:50:12,949
like, the guy kinda took this seriously, but

1479
00:50:12,949 --> 00:50:15,109
then at the same time never did. Like,

1480
00:50:15,109 --> 00:50:16,630
come on. Like, that that's really gonna be

1481
00:50:16,630 --> 00:50:18,710
your legacy. So, anyways, little teaser for the

1482
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:19,989
end of my book. But I think those

1483
00:50:19,989 --> 00:50:22,309
final chapters are always the fun the fun

1484
00:50:22,309 --> 00:50:24,465
ones because it's like, you know, it is

1485
00:50:24,465 --> 00:50:26,465
that question of, you know, what do I

1486
00:50:26,465 --> 00:50:27,505
have to look for? And I and I

1487
00:50:27,505 --> 00:50:29,184
encourage everybody to spend actually a lot of

1488
00:50:29,184 --> 00:50:30,565
time there. I think we underestimate,

1489
00:50:31,825 --> 00:50:34,085
the need for hope in this situation.

1490
00:50:34,465 --> 00:50:35,825
And I do. I think I think those

1491
00:50:35,825 --> 00:50:38,325
last chapters, I would encourage every woman,

1492
00:50:38,945 --> 00:50:41,349
or guy when when you buy Tammy's book,

1493
00:50:41,590 --> 00:50:43,670
maybe reread that last little bit, that phase

1494
00:50:43,670 --> 00:50:45,429
four a couple times, you know, really, really

1495
00:50:45,429 --> 00:50:47,590
anchor in in what you're working towards. It

1496
00:50:47,590 --> 00:50:49,510
can be really easy to get caught in

1497
00:50:49,510 --> 00:50:51,909
the phase you're in, but, you know, there's

1498
00:50:51,909 --> 00:50:53,269
steps to this and we and we do

1499
00:50:53,349 --> 00:50:54,630
you put in the work, you do get

1500
00:50:54,630 --> 00:50:55,994
out. You really do.

1501
00:50:56,474 --> 00:50:58,315
But I'm not gonna say it's easy. It

1502
00:50:58,315 --> 00:51:00,074
is the hardest thing I've ever done. I've

1503
00:51:00,074 --> 00:51:01,994
never there's nothing there's nothing I've done in

1504
00:51:01,994 --> 00:51:04,474
my life that was as challenging as this.

1505
00:51:04,474 --> 00:51:06,315
The man it forced me to become so

1506
00:51:06,315 --> 00:51:08,474
I could do it was the hardest part.

1507
00:51:08,474 --> 00:51:09,914
It it wasn't even the recovery work. It

1508
00:51:09,914 --> 00:51:10,574
was me

1509
00:51:11,319 --> 00:51:13,319
trying to get to a mature enough point

1510
00:51:13,319 --> 00:51:14,760
where I could even do this in the

1511
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,359
first place. And and then god bless my

1512
00:51:16,359 --> 00:51:18,539
wife for adding double time

1513
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:20,460
for all of my immaturity,

1514
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:21,900
narcissism, grandiosity.

1515
00:51:22,199 --> 00:51:23,880
Like, there's so much crap I had to

1516
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:25,400
get out of my life to show up

1517
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,565
for her, and, you know, god bless her

1518
00:51:27,565 --> 00:51:29,164
for for for putting up with it.

1519
00:51:29,805 --> 00:51:31,965
And, of course, Tammy, how do we get

1520
00:51:31,965 --> 00:51:33,805
this book? What's it called? Where is it

1521
00:51:33,805 --> 00:51:34,625
gonna be?

1522
00:51:35,565 --> 00:51:36,045
And,

1523
00:51:36,605 --> 00:51:38,684
and and also one more mention of the

1524
00:51:38,684 --> 00:51:39,184
conference.

1525
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,119
Yeah. Absolutely. So you can get the book

1526
00:51:42,119 --> 00:51:42,780
on Amazon.

1527
00:51:43,079 --> 00:51:45,559
It's called Broken to Brave, your courageous act

1528
00:51:45,559 --> 00:51:47,179
of healing after intimate betrayal.

1529
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,800
And, yeah, I would love to have you

1530
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,139
guys join us for the conference.

1531
00:51:52,545 --> 00:51:54,784
And, guys, if you take initiative on this

1532
00:51:54,944 --> 00:51:56,385
Yeah. And, like, bring it to your wife,

1533
00:51:56,385 --> 00:51:58,224
that's gonna go a long ways. Yes. A

1534
00:51:58,224 --> 00:51:59,045
100%.

1535
00:51:59,505 --> 00:52:01,684
So yeah. So the book is on Amazon.

1536
00:52:01,905 --> 00:52:03,984
The the you'll have a link, so you'll

1537
00:52:03,984 --> 00:52:05,125
get the link to everybody.

1538
00:52:05,519 --> 00:52:06,019
And

1539
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,579
I do I do wanna give hope.

1540
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,440
Mhmm. I do wanna give hope. Like, guys,

1541
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,760
it is possible to make it through this.

1542
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,420
It is possible for the relationship to heal.

1543
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:18,320
We I made it through with my husband,

1544
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,820
and our our marriage is by far better

1545
00:52:22,364 --> 00:52:23,724
And I know that's that's kind of a

1546
00:52:23,724 --> 00:52:26,844
cliche thing to say. Yep. But but it's

1547
00:52:26,844 --> 00:52:27,744
true. And

1548
00:52:28,204 --> 00:52:29,965
he is a better person than he has

1549
00:52:29,965 --> 00:52:32,045
ever been. So I just wanna give in

1550
00:52:32,045 --> 00:52:33,565
the midst of this, it feels so dark

1551
00:52:33,565 --> 00:52:35,489
and it feels so impossible and it feels

1552
00:52:35,489 --> 00:52:37,889
like she'll never stop being angry and will

1553
00:52:37,889 --> 00:52:40,050
never heal. But let me tell you, you

1554
00:52:40,050 --> 00:52:41,269
can. Mhmm.

1555
00:52:41,889 --> 00:52:43,269
Absolutely. 100%.

1556
00:52:43,329 --> 00:52:44,469
Yeah. Thanks, Tammy.

1557
00:52:45,090 --> 00:52:47,250
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1558
00:52:47,250 --> 00:52:49,010
are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1559
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and you're looking for a recovery group full

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of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

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We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

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using four day retreats,

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weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

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If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

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save your marriage, go to our website and

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fill out our application. If you enjoyed this

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episode, please pass it along to a friend

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in recovery who would benefit from listening. It

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is my mission to get this information out

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to as many high achievers as possible, and

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I can't do it without your help.