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And there’s some resources that say I want

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the addict to do 80% and I want

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the spouse to do 20.

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Mhmm. And it’s like, I hear that, but

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I don’t like the way that it takes

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away from the spouse’s work. Mhmm.

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That’s an unrealistic

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expectation truly

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when we are talking about restoration

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and

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reconciliation.

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Mhmm. I think the betrayed spouse needs a

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100%

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work, and the betraying spouse needs a 120%.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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high achiever. I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder

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of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for

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00:00:47,574 –> 00:00:49,975
high achieving men struggling with sex and porn

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00:00:49,975 –> 00:00:52,295
addiction. For more information about joining our group

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or attending our next retreat, visit successful addict

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00:00:55,254 –> 00:00:57,574
dot com. And now, enjoy the rest of

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the episode.

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Healing your marriage after sexual betrayal can be

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a mess.

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Sometimes there’s a plan and it’s working. Other

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times it feels like there’s no plan at

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all. Sometimes it’s even worse. Sometimes it feels

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like the relationship is totally backsliding and leading

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to divorce.

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But I saw an Instagram post from Tessa

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Salmon that caught my eye. I loved how

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she had mapped these different phases, so I

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decided to bring her on the show. Hello,

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everybody. I am here with Tessa Salmon. Tessa,

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I think we connected on Instagram. That’s what

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it was. I saw a post that you

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had and I just loved it. And it

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spoke to you a bit about what we’re

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gonna talk about today, which is, you know,

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you call it something different. I always call

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it this kind of second phase after you

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and your partner have made it through the

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crisis, right? Like, all right, we’re not falling

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apart. We both got both feet in this

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or at least most of both feet back

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in the relationship. And then what? Right? And

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it is a total plateau. I know you

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see it. Everybody sees it, right? It’s like

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we make it through the crisis and then

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it’s like crap, we have this very real

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problem in our relationship. Like now what do

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we do? Right? It’s less about safety creation,

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trust recreation, check ins, and now it’s kind

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of mari gritti into something different. So Tessa,

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can you define the second phase for us

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before we dive in?

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Yeah. And so to be clear, the phases

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that we’re talking about are with the Rabsmith’s

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model and the intimacy pyramid, and they have

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three key phases. And that’s what

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I have found through everything

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that I’ve learned with

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betrayal and infidelity

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is this one just fits right in all

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the areas. The recovery phase, the restoration phase,

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and then the renewal phase.

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What we’re talking about today is the restoration

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phase, and it’s about healing the wounds and

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rebuilding connection.

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The phase before that

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is

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just an utter shit show. Literally,

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we’re rebuilding

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safety. We’re in a crisis. You don’t know

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it from down.

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So this

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is where,

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okay, we’re stabilized

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and

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we are committed for the most part as

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long as we’re both doing the work right.

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Where are we going from here? And so

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the restoration phase is I think where everybody

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wants to start.

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Especially the men,

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it’s like, hey, let’s get out of this

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crisis phase and just get into you being

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my wife again.

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Yeah.

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It’s like, no, we can’t start there.

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But it’s where everyone wants to start when

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they come and seek therapy. Right? Mhmm. I

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would say too, it’s definitely

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and this might be a personal bias of

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mine, but it definitely seems like and it’s

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probably supply and demand as well, but it

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definitely seems like therapists, CSATs,

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the betrayed partner community,

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everyone like really wants to talk about that

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first phase, right? The crisis phase. And to

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our credit, the field’s done a great job.

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I mean, we really have that

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We’ve got that phase down pretty good. Like,

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hey, here’s what you guys need to do.

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You’re You’re not gonna like it. It’s not

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gonna be comfortable. It’s gonna look weird.

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And

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when we do it, we find the marriages

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survive better than when we take any other

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strategy. So, you know, I really do. I’m

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really proud of the field and what we’ve

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done in that crisis phase. I feel we’ve

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done some really, really good work there. And

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then

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I really do find it kind of starts

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to become very murky,

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gray,

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ambiguous,

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poorly defined as you exit that first phase.

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And I strongly believe that. I think what

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works for one couple does not work for

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another couple. Can you speak to that first?

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Like, why is that second phase

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just so I think kind of all over

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the place. It’s like what I see some

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couple doing in their restoration phase is so

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different than another couple and I just it

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does not work with them, and it worked

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for this other what describe that. Why does

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it get so weird when we get out

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of this crisis and then all of a

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sudden it starts becoming, I don’t know, looking

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more and more like the wild west?

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Yeah. I would refer back to phase one.

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I would say, like, they missed something, and

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it’s not a solid foundation

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most likely. And so couples therapist,

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it’s interesting,

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is they have

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the best eyes on what each person needs

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to be doing individually.

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Mhmm. And so we look at betrayal trauma

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recovery.

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We look

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at betraying spouse recovery or addict recovery.

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And then what

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people aren’t realizing is those two things are

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completely different than relational recovery.

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Sure. Like, relational recovery is but we do

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need a foundation in betrayal trauma and addiction

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recovery.

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And a lot of that is phase one

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of the recovery phase, essentially,

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for the coupleship.

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And

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that if one person isn’t doing their work

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there, and this is including the betrayed spouse,

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right,

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is

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phase two is gonna be tough. So let’s

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talk about that. What are these I know

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this I mean, this is a whole podcast

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in itself, but if you can give a

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short overview, I know this is a loaded

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question and a huge question. You probably like

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talk and talk and talk for probably two

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hours on this.

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But can you just give the audience and

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listeners just some ideas of what we mean

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by

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having all of your bases covered by phase

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one before phase two. So again, don’t you

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don’t have to get into the nitty gritty,

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but what incomplete in phase one would really

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mess with your ability to effectively do phase

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two? Okay. So for the addict,

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have you ever heard of the four

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recovery attitudes?

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Uh-uh. No.

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And so it is basically abstinence,

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abstinence. I know what you’re talking about. Yeah.

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Okay.

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Behavior. Yeah. Sobriety

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is I’m not having the urges on a

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daily basis.

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Serenity is I understand

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there is hope and freedom in recovery.

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And then four is humility.

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Mhmm.

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Humility.

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That’s where men get stuck. Addicts get stuck,

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right, where it’s going to really impact

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phase two. And then for the betrayed spouse,

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oh, I’m gonna, like, ruffle feathers, but it’s

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okay because this is true, is entitlement.

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Mhmm.

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And it’s like it’s right because

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betrayal is injustice.

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We’re not gonna say that it’s not. It

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truly is.

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And

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at the same time,

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there does come a point where the equality

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starts to come down here, and we gotta

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put in the same work. So how I

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like to phrase it is, like, I always

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want the addict

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to outwork the betrayed spouse. Mhmm. And there’s

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some resources that say I want the addict

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to do 80%, and I want the spouse

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to do 20.

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Mhmm. And it’s like, I hear that, but

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I don’t like the way that it takes

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away from the spouse’s work. Mhmm.

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That’s an unrealistic

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expectation truly

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when we are talking about restoration and

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reconciliation.

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Mhmm. I think the betrayed spouse needs a

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100%

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work, and the betraying spouse needs a 120%.

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Mhmm. Yeah. Oh, I like that. There we

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go. Everybody hear that? I love that. A

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100% and a 120.

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Right? So both are bringing a 100 and

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then us guys, you know, we’re bringing it

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with a little bit of extra oomph to

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it. Now I like that a lot. I

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think that’s very well said. Very well said.

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Yeah. And so unrealistic expectations,

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the unfairness, there is so much unfairness in

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this,

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but the betrayed spouse needs humility too. Mhmm.

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And that’s a tough pill to swallow. Mhmm.

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And so it’s really going at their pace

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because it’s also, like, if they’re struggling with

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that, why are they struggling with it? Can

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you define humility too just for fun so

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people really know what that is? That’s

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a good question. Because I’ve it’s a it’s

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a everybody you ask has a different definition,

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but I would just love to hear yours.

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And so it is where I am doing

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something without the expectation of praise, gratitude, and

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this is for

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the greater good. I am

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lacking pride.

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I am lacking

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ego.

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Mhmm. Mhmm.

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So I’d say so the main reason I

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want you to do that is I think

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I do see that as an issue on

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both sides, on both sides, betrayed partners and

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addicted to compulsive men in the sense that

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there

260
00:09:14,259 –> 00:09:16,820
are expectations. Hey, I did this and you

261
00:09:16,820 –> 00:09:19,700
should appreciate this. Hey, I’m doing this and

262
00:09:19,700 –> 00:09:21,299
this and this and you don’t get the

263
00:09:21,299 –> 00:09:22,495
right to say

264
00:09:22,955 –> 00:09:24,315
blank, right? So, I think a lot of

265
00:09:24,315 –> 00:09:26,475
people feel like, Oh, no, no. I have

266
00:09:26,475 –> 00:09:28,794
plenty of humility. And it’s like, the way

267
00:09:28,794 –> 00:09:30,634
I always say it is, I simplify it

268
00:09:30,634 –> 00:09:32,955
even further. It’s like, what to the greater

269
00:09:32,955 –> 00:09:35,519
good piece? Yes. And how can we remove

270
00:09:35,519 –> 00:09:37,920
any sort of personal biases, any sort of

271
00:09:37,920 –> 00:09:41,279
like rights, wrongs, goods, bads, betters, worse, right?

272
00:09:41,279 –> 00:09:43,440
All these labels, these hierarchies. You know, I

273
00:09:43,440 –> 00:09:46,160
think humility is in a hierarchy less place.

274
00:09:46,160 –> 00:09:47,779
And we’re just looking at two people.

275
00:09:48,195 –> 00:09:50,754
Hurt people, people with their own traumas, right?

276
00:09:50,754 –> 00:09:53,394
Like objectively just looking at the situation from

277
00:09:53,394 –> 00:09:54,835
two human beings who are just trying to

278
00:09:54,835 –> 00:09:57,554
do their best, right? Rather than projecting some

279
00:09:57,554 –> 00:10:00,035
sort of expectation on the other person. So

280
00:10:00,035 –> 00:10:01,735
question on that though. So

281
00:10:02,250 –> 00:10:04,009
how do we deal with that? Is that

282
00:10:04,009 –> 00:10:06,970
something that you think goes away if we’ve

283
00:10:06,970 –> 00:10:07,470
done

284
00:10:07,850 –> 00:10:10,090
really well in Phase one? Do you think

285
00:10:10,090 –> 00:10:12,009
that humility happens or do you think it’s

286
00:10:12,009 –> 00:10:13,149
something that intentionally

287
00:10:13,529 –> 00:10:14,429
has to be

288
00:10:15,095 –> 00:10:17,735
called out, paid attention to? How do we

289
00:10:17,815 –> 00:10:20,134
because I know everybody listening to this, it’s

290
00:10:20,134 –> 00:10:22,454
probably the men are like, See, I told

291
00:10:22,454 –> 00:10:24,154
you she was being too mean to me.

292
00:10:24,214 –> 00:10:26,954
So what I want to address that because

293
00:10:27,529 –> 00:10:29,610
I will say at the one year mark,

294
00:10:29,610 –> 00:10:31,450
I do see men start to get a

295
00:10:31,450 –> 00:10:31,950
little

296
00:10:32,490 –> 00:10:34,029
irritated at how

297
00:10:34,570 –> 00:10:36,649
it still never seems to be enough, right?

298
00:10:36,649 –> 00:10:39,049
So then there’s this, somebody tell her that

299
00:10:39,049 –> 00:10:41,129
I’m doing enough, somebody put her on equal

300
00:10:41,129 –> 00:10:43,955
ground, right? There’s this weird dynamic of what

301
00:10:43,955 –> 00:10:45,715
do we do with that? So how does

302
00:10:45,715 –> 00:10:46,835
this go away? If we did a good

303
00:10:46,835 –> 00:10:48,355
enough job in phase one, would you expect

304
00:10:48,355 –> 00:10:49,795
this to just go away on its own?

305
00:10:49,795 –> 00:10:51,415
Is this something that needs to be intentionally

306
00:10:51,475 –> 00:10:53,715
dealt with in phase two on both sides?

307
00:10:53,715 –> 00:10:55,879
Talk to us about if people are feeling

308
00:10:55,879 –> 00:10:59,399
this lopsided relationship dynamic, how do we create

309
00:10:59,399 –> 00:11:00,460
that humility

310
00:11:00,840 –> 00:11:03,259
and kind of a dyad again, I guess?

311
00:11:03,800 –> 00:11:05,800
So I think the easiest way to put

312
00:11:05,800 –> 00:11:08,440
it is let’s stop trying to manage the

313
00:11:08,440 –> 00:11:09,180
other person.

314
00:11:10,184 –> 00:11:12,824
Like take responsibility for ourselves because that’s all

315
00:11:12,824 –> 00:11:14,824
we have control over. If we try to

316
00:11:14,824 –> 00:11:16,125
manage the other person,

317
00:11:16,504 –> 00:11:18,504
we are trying to control something that we

318
00:11:18,504 –> 00:11:20,264
will never have control of and you guys

319
00:11:20,264 –> 00:11:21,725
are gonna drive each other nuts.

320
00:11:24,509 –> 00:11:26,610
If you focus on

321
00:11:27,230 –> 00:11:28,050
your emotion,

322
00:11:28,830 –> 00:11:30,529
your response to that emotion,

323
00:11:31,070 –> 00:11:34,029
and how that impacts your spouse, like, underline,

324
00:11:34,029 –> 00:11:36,110
underline how that impacts your spouse on either

325
00:11:36,110 –> 00:11:36,610
side,

326
00:11:36,965 –> 00:11:39,785
then that is how and that’s humility. Right?

327
00:11:39,845 –> 00:11:42,085
How it impacts your spouse. Mhmm. And so

328
00:11:42,085 –> 00:11:43,065
I think it is

329
00:11:43,445 –> 00:11:43,945
something

330
00:11:44,565 –> 00:11:47,045
that’s constant. I think it’s a choice that

331
00:11:47,045 –> 00:11:49,945
we are choosing to bring in

332
00:11:50,580 –> 00:11:51,320
a relationship

333
00:11:51,620 –> 00:11:53,160
of this is how I

334
00:11:53,620 –> 00:11:55,720
want to be in the relationship.

335
00:11:56,420 –> 00:11:57,860
So I I have a follow-up question to

336
00:11:57,860 –> 00:11:59,559
that. Do you feel like

337
00:12:00,180 –> 00:12:01,000
so empathy.

338
00:12:01,379 –> 00:12:03,524
There is this I don’t know who started

339
00:12:03,524 –> 00:12:06,565
it, but basically, there’s this buzzword that you’ll

340
00:12:06,565 –> 00:12:09,144
never heal if your husband doesn’t learn how.

341
00:12:09,445 –> 00:12:12,404
The gateway is empathy. It’s like empathy is

342
00:12:12,404 –> 00:12:14,965
like this gateway to like the world that

343
00:12:14,965 –> 00:12:17,125
the betrayed partner wants. And I don’t know

344
00:12:17,125 –> 00:12:19,410
where this started. And maybe I maybe I’m

345
00:12:19,410 –> 00:12:21,170
because I’m bad at it. I was sensitive

346
00:12:21,170 –> 00:12:22,690
to that because I’m like, Oh, God. The

347
00:12:22,690 –> 00:12:24,290
gateway is this thing that’s really hard for

348
00:12:24,290 –> 00:12:25,889
me. But I really do. Maybe it’s my

349
00:12:25,889 –> 00:12:27,970
own personal bias. But I feel like that’s

350
00:12:27,970 –> 00:12:29,490
said quite a bit that he needs to

351
00:12:29,490 –> 00:12:32,050
learn empathy. That is like this gateway to

352
00:12:32,050 –> 00:12:34,144
phase two. Right? So what would you say

353
00:12:34,144 –> 00:12:36,445
to that though? Because I also feel like

354
00:12:36,825 –> 00:12:38,045
that can sometimes

355
00:12:39,465 –> 00:12:40,605
add to this.

356
00:12:41,065 –> 00:12:42,424
I think you know what I’m saying, but

357
00:12:42,424 –> 00:12:44,345
it adds to this like, Oh, well, we’re

358
00:12:44,345 –> 00:12:46,125
stuck because he can’t empathize.

359
00:12:46,504 –> 00:12:48,839
And I don’t know. I feel like we

360
00:12:48,839 –> 00:12:50,440
already have enough on our plate. Do we

361
00:12:50,440 –> 00:12:52,440
need to keep adding these things to this

362
00:12:52,440 –> 00:12:54,679
already difficult situation? Because again, trust me, I

363
00:12:54,679 –> 00:12:56,679
think these guys are trying. It’s just very

364
00:12:56,679 –> 00:12:59,000
hard for them to crawl in the hole.

365
00:12:59,000 –> 00:13:00,839
I don’t even think they know what that

366
00:13:00,839 –> 00:13:03,044
means. Like, they see all the images of

367
00:13:03,044 –> 00:13:05,365
crawling into the hole with her. But every

368
00:13:05,365 –> 00:13:07,284
time I try to do it, she tells

369
00:13:07,284 –> 00:13:10,325
me that I’m standing outside yelling down at

370
00:13:10,325 –> 00:13:12,084
her. Hey, how is it down there? Do

371
00:13:12,084 –> 00:13:13,924
you need anything? Can I get you some

372
00:13:13,924 –> 00:13:16,330
Gatorade or some Cheetos? And like, I think

373
00:13:16,330 –> 00:13:17,769
I’m down there with her but she never

374
00:13:17,769 –> 00:13:19,210
feels like AM. So anyways, you get what

375
00:13:19,210 –> 00:13:20,730
I’m saying with this. Can you speak to

376
00:13:20,730 –> 00:13:22,970
that piece? Because I feel like sometimes that’s

377
00:13:22,970 –> 00:13:24,970
a big piece of friction is there’s, you

378
00:13:24,970 –> 00:13:27,210
know, all these groups of women saying, we

379
00:13:27,210 –> 00:13:29,370
need this empathy and somebody got some empathy

380
00:13:29,370 –> 00:13:30,889
and she’s like, oh, I want my husband

381
00:13:30,889 –> 00:13:32,945
to do that. Can you speak to that?

382
00:13:32,945 –> 00:13:35,264
Can you speak to that whole thing? Because,

383
00:13:35,264 –> 00:13:36,544
oh my gosh, I wanted to kill the

384
00:13:36,544 –> 00:13:38,304
empathetic guys out there. Because I’m like, Can

385
00:13:38,304 –> 00:13:40,544
you stop making me look bad? I’m trying

386
00:13:40,544 –> 00:13:42,704
my face off over here and my wife’s

387
00:13:42,704 –> 00:13:44,945
hearing your little cute stories about the flowers

388
00:13:44,945 –> 00:13:46,464
you bought and now you’re making me look

389
00:13:46,464 –> 00:13:48,579
terrible. So so can you can you speak

390
00:13:48,579 –> 00:13:51,500
to how to assess that accurately so that

391
00:13:51,779 –> 00:13:53,860
especially the the guys and the portrayed partners

392
00:13:53,860 –> 00:13:56,179
can assess how to handle this? Because I

393
00:13:56,179 –> 00:13:58,259
do feel like it’s like a hurdle that

394
00:13:58,259 –> 00:14:00,100
everyone’s like waiting for me to jump over

395
00:14:00,100 –> 00:14:01,399
before we can proceed.

396
00:14:01,995 –> 00:14:04,075
Yeah. Are you ready for a fire hose?

397
00:14:04,075 –> 00:14:06,154
Yeah. I am ready. Just bring it on.

398
00:14:06,394 –> 00:14:09,035
Fire hose of information right here. So I

399
00:14:09,035 –> 00:14:10,335
think the

400
00:14:10,955 –> 00:14:13,754
unfortunate thing is people think empathy is either

401
00:14:13,754 –> 00:14:15,455
you have it or you don’t. Correct.

402
00:14:15,899 –> 00:14:19,740
And that’s so untrue. You have empathy and

403
00:14:19,740 –> 00:14:21,980
so does an addict that is an early

404
00:14:21,980 –> 00:14:22,480
recovery.

405
00:14:22,940 –> 00:14:26,139
It’s different phases of empathy. Mhmm. And so

406
00:14:26,139 –> 00:14:27,600
it’s not all or nothing.

407
00:14:28,014 –> 00:14:31,454
There’s phase one, which is effective empathy, and

408
00:14:31,454 –> 00:14:34,334
that’s what an 18 old has. And that

409
00:14:34,334 –> 00:14:34,834
is,

410
00:14:35,214 –> 00:14:37,375
I see you smile, I can smile, is

411
00:14:37,375 –> 00:14:40,095
I can mirror essentially what you’re doing. And

412
00:14:40,095 –> 00:14:43,350
then second is cognitive empathy. That’s like two

413
00:14:43,350 –> 00:14:45,509
year old to 10 year old is I

414
00:14:45,509 –> 00:14:46,730
see they’re sad,

415
00:14:47,269 –> 00:14:47,769
and

416
00:14:48,309 –> 00:14:50,169
I wanna ask them why are they sad.

417
00:14:50,629 –> 00:14:52,789
Right? And so I’m getting curious, and I

418
00:14:52,789 –> 00:14:54,730
can acknowledge their emotion.

419
00:14:55,110 –> 00:14:56,329
Mhmm. And then

420
00:14:56,629 –> 00:14:59,794
phase three of empathy is compassionate empathy. Mhmm.

421
00:14:59,794 –> 00:15:01,875
And that is when I start feeling. It’s

422
00:15:01,875 –> 00:15:02,375
like,

423
00:15:02,995 –> 00:15:05,075
oh, you’re sad. I wanna give you a

424
00:15:05,075 –> 00:15:05,575
hug.

425
00:15:06,274 –> 00:15:08,115
I want to hold your hand. I wanna

426
00:15:08,115 –> 00:15:10,529
sit here with you because you’re sad. And

427
00:15:10,529 –> 00:15:13,330
then phase four is applied empathy, and that’s

428
00:15:13,330 –> 00:15:15,830
full throttle. That’s what everybody has the expectation

429
00:15:15,970 –> 00:15:17,750
of. Mhmm. Everyone expects,

430
00:15:18,209 –> 00:15:20,629
like, their husband to have applied empathy.

431
00:15:21,330 –> 00:15:22,629
And that is

432
00:15:23,195 –> 00:15:26,394
where I not only can see, acknowledge, I

433
00:15:26,394 –> 00:15:29,995
feel, but I’m also hurting with you. Mhmm.

434
00:15:29,995 –> 00:15:31,134
Like, that’s an advanced

435
00:15:31,754 –> 00:15:34,174
skill. And if we have the expectation

436
00:15:35,049 –> 00:15:37,549
for our husbands to have that skill

437
00:15:38,090 –> 00:15:40,090
at the very beginning, like, we’re gonna be

438
00:15:40,090 –> 00:15:42,990
very disappointed. Like, we’re so disappointed

439
00:15:43,450 –> 00:15:46,250
because they’re probably in phase two. Like, they

440
00:15:46,250 –> 00:15:49,215
say, my wife is mad. My wife is

441
00:15:49,215 –> 00:15:51,294
mad. And I think the tough part was

442
00:15:51,294 –> 00:15:53,375
that was my wife would see me in

443
00:15:53,375 –> 00:15:54,434
our recovery groups

444
00:15:55,134 –> 00:15:55,634
sobbing

445
00:15:56,254 –> 00:15:58,975
for this other woman because I’m just like,

446
00:15:58,975 –> 00:16:01,695
oh, I’m so sad for her hearing this

447
00:16:01,695 –> 00:16:02,195
story.

448
00:16:02,509 –> 00:16:05,250
But when my wife does it because I

449
00:16:05,549 –> 00:16:06,370
did the

450
00:16:06,750 –> 00:16:08,830
thing, Oh, my gosh, Tessa, it’s so hard

451
00:16:08,830 –> 00:16:12,029
for me to stop feeling shameful, bad, guilty

452
00:16:12,029 –> 00:16:14,190
when she’s describing it because I know she

453
00:16:14,190 –> 00:16:15,629
wouldn’t be feeling this way if I didn’t

454
00:16:15,629 –> 00:16:17,149
do it. And so I’m just like, I’m

455
00:16:17,149 –> 00:16:20,585
lost in shame, really, as she’s describing her

456
00:16:20,585 –> 00:16:22,985
hurt. And to this day, I cannot hear

457
00:16:22,985 –> 00:16:26,664
her describe how deeper hurt is without feeling

458
00:16:26,664 –> 00:16:28,985
extremely ashamed of what I’ve done, which I

459
00:16:28,985 –> 00:16:31,784
hate because it completely blocks my ability to

460
00:16:31,784 –> 00:16:33,404
do what I would do for another woman.

461
00:16:35,490 –> 00:16:37,990
Yeah. That sounds really frustrating.

462
00:16:38,450 –> 00:16:40,289
It is and I think here’s the more

463
00:16:40,289 –> 00:16:41,830
frustrating piece about it is

464
00:16:42,529 –> 00:16:43,590
I think we

465
00:16:44,370 –> 00:16:44,870
as

466
00:16:45,490 –> 00:16:47,509
addicts trying to empathize

467
00:16:48,384 –> 00:16:51,105
are extremely frustrated because it makes us look

468
00:16:51,105 –> 00:16:52,944
like we can’t or don’t. And so I

469
00:16:52,944 –> 00:16:54,865
think it creates this huge complex. For me,

470
00:16:54,865 –> 00:16:56,304
like maybe you want to stop trying because

471
00:16:56,304 –> 00:16:56,884
it’s like,

472
00:16:57,184 –> 00:16:58,944
I care. You keep telling me that I

473
00:16:58,944 –> 00:17:00,865
don’t. So screw you. I’m just not going

474
00:17:00,865 –> 00:17:02,920
to try anymore because it it doesn’t matter.

475
00:17:02,920 –> 00:17:03,960
So anyway, I just wanted to speak to

476
00:17:03,960 –> 00:17:05,160
that. We don’t need to make the whole

477
00:17:05,160 –> 00:17:06,440
podcast about that. But I just wanted to

478
00:17:06,440 –> 00:17:07,259
speak to that

479
00:17:07,640 –> 00:17:09,799
as we’re talking about these phases. One thing

480
00:17:09,799 –> 00:17:11,480
I see with this is we’re trying to

481
00:17:11,480 –> 00:17:14,119
have you, the experts, help us in our

482
00:17:14,119 –> 00:17:14,619
recovery.

483
00:17:15,144 –> 00:17:19,085
The problem is we take things very literally,

484
00:17:19,384 –> 00:17:21,625
right? When you say something, it’s very black

485
00:17:21,625 –> 00:17:23,484
and white to the client. It’s like, okay,

486
00:17:23,865 –> 00:17:25,144
he needs to do that. And then we

487
00:17:25,144 –> 00:17:26,744
go home and there’s not a lot of

488
00:17:26,744 –> 00:17:29,289
like play or individuality or or I would

489
00:17:29,289 –> 00:17:30,970
even say grace too. Like, we had no

490
00:17:30,970 –> 00:17:32,029
empathy in my household.

491
00:17:32,409 –> 00:17:35,609
None. Zero. No one did empathy ever at

492
00:17:35,609 –> 00:17:37,690
all. And so I’m still for the first

493
00:17:37,690 –> 00:17:40,089
time now learning it as a full grown

494
00:17:40,089 –> 00:17:41,690
adult. And so I just wanted to bring

495
00:17:41,690 –> 00:17:43,065
that up because I think we need to

496
00:17:43,065 –> 00:17:45,544
remember that these are imperfect people who were

497
00:17:45,544 –> 00:17:47,464
raised by imperfect parents. And, you know, I

498
00:17:47,464 –> 00:17:49,704
think it would be beneficial to have grace

499
00:17:49,704 –> 00:17:51,625
there if you’re gonna advance. I think as

500
00:17:51,625 –> 00:17:53,464
my wife started allowing things to be a

501
00:17:53,464 –> 00:17:55,784
little bit more gray and having some play

502
00:17:55,784 –> 00:17:57,625
in there was when we really started healing.

503
00:17:57,625 –> 00:17:59,390
It was when she was holding me to

504
00:17:59,390 –> 00:18:00,130
a benchmark

505
00:18:00,990 –> 00:18:02,750
that, oh my gosh, that phase was so

506
00:18:02,750 –> 00:18:05,069
frustrating. I just like, I’m trying my hardest

507
00:18:05,069 –> 00:18:06,349
but it never seemed to be good enough.

508
00:18:06,349 –> 00:18:07,549
So anyway, I just wanted to speak to

509
00:18:07,549 –> 00:18:09,150
that phase. So I know everyone’s listening to

510
00:18:09,150 –> 00:18:10,990
this and they wanna get into phase two

511
00:18:10,990 –> 00:18:12,849
and that is what this podcast is about.

512
00:18:12,934 –> 00:18:14,855
Can I say two things? Please. Please do.

513
00:18:14,855 –> 00:18:17,654
Please do. Yeah. So two things. I don’t

514
00:18:17,654 –> 00:18:19,835
think they’re educated on enough.

515
00:18:20,134 –> 00:18:21,595
And I think this is helpful

516
00:18:22,214 –> 00:18:22,954
for the

517
00:18:23,414 –> 00:18:26,150
betrayed and for the betraying spouse. Is

518
00:18:26,450 –> 00:18:29,650
really talking about the science behind what you

519
00:18:29,650 –> 00:18:30,390
just described.

520
00:18:31,009 –> 00:18:33,269
So number one is trauma organization.

521
00:18:33,570 –> 00:18:35,570
Do you know what I’m talking about when

522
00:18:35,570 –> 00:18:37,269
I say that? No. Please explain.

523
00:18:37,684 –> 00:18:41,044
So trauma organization, if we have experienced childhood

524
00:18:41,044 –> 00:18:41,544
trauma,

525
00:18:42,005 –> 00:18:43,384
we learn how to compartmentalize.

526
00:18:44,484 –> 00:18:46,585
And when we learn how to compartmentalize,

527
00:18:47,365 –> 00:18:48,825
we then blind ourselves

528
00:18:49,365 –> 00:18:51,180
to awareness of self,

529
00:18:51,580 –> 00:18:52,640
awareness of others,

530
00:18:53,100 –> 00:18:53,840
and reality.

531
00:18:54,460 –> 00:18:57,440
And so addicts struggle when they struggle with

532
00:18:57,580 –> 00:18:58,640
trauma organization

533
00:18:59,180 –> 00:19:00,880
is they’re gonna have limitations

534
00:19:01,500 –> 00:19:04,460
Mhmm. On their attunement and being able to

535
00:19:04,460 –> 00:19:06,315
see reality for what it is.

536
00:19:07,115 –> 00:19:08,875
And that is going to have a lot

537
00:19:08,875 –> 00:19:11,355
of impact on the way that I see

538
00:19:11,355 –> 00:19:13,115
my wife’s pain versus the way I see

539
00:19:13,115 –> 00:19:16,494
a stranger’s pain. There’s the connection or disconnection

540
00:19:16,634 –> 00:19:17,134
there.

541
00:19:17,674 –> 00:19:18,494
And then

542
00:19:19,220 –> 00:19:19,720
competence,

543
00:19:20,099 –> 00:19:21,240
relational competence.

544
00:19:21,700 –> 00:19:23,160
And so if we take

545
00:19:23,539 –> 00:19:24,279
the understanding,

546
00:19:25,059 –> 00:19:26,580
have you ever heard of the phases of

547
00:19:26,580 –> 00:19:27,080
competence?

548
00:19:27,700 –> 00:19:29,700
No. Well, I have but I I want

549
00:19:29,700 –> 00:19:30,820
you to re explain them because I don’t

550
00:19:30,820 –> 00:19:32,099
know if it’s the same ones that you’re

551
00:19:32,099 –> 00:19:33,285
talking about. Okay.

552
00:19:33,765 –> 00:19:36,085
And so there is let’s see. My you’re

553
00:19:36,085 –> 00:19:37,224
gonna test my memory.

554
00:19:37,525 –> 00:19:38,424
So unconscious

555
00:19:38,965 –> 00:19:39,465
incompetence.

556
00:19:39,845 –> 00:19:41,845
Yeah. That is we don’t know what we

557
00:19:41,845 –> 00:19:45,045
don’t know. Right? Mhmm. So you described in

558
00:19:45,045 –> 00:19:47,799
my household, we never learned empathy. We had

559
00:19:47,799 –> 00:19:49,480
zero idea. We don’t know what we don’t

560
00:19:49,480 –> 00:19:51,480
know. So how can I expect you to

561
00:19:51,480 –> 00:19:53,400
know something that you don’t even know exist?

562
00:19:53,400 –> 00:19:55,660
Mhmm. So that’s one.

563
00:19:56,039 –> 00:19:58,059
And then the second one is

564
00:19:58,440 –> 00:19:58,940
unconscious

565
00:19:59,320 –> 00:20:01,820
competence. Okay. I know I have a problem.

566
00:20:02,224 –> 00:20:03,904
I don’t know what to do, but I

567
00:20:03,904 –> 00:20:06,305
can see that I lack empathy. I do

568
00:20:06,305 –> 00:20:08,565
not function in the same way as

569
00:20:08,945 –> 00:20:09,845
Joe over here.

570
00:20:10,305 –> 00:20:11,045
And then

571
00:20:11,424 –> 00:20:13,765
three is conscious incompetence.

572
00:20:14,305 –> 00:20:15,765
Yes. Because now

573
00:20:16,545 –> 00:20:17,765
I know I have a problem.

574
00:20:18,359 –> 00:20:20,599
My therapist has taught me new skills, and

575
00:20:20,599 –> 00:20:23,420
I am applying it, and I am messy.

576
00:20:23,480 –> 00:20:25,819
I’m not good at this, but I’m trying.

577
00:20:26,279 –> 00:20:27,579
And then we have

578
00:20:28,279 –> 00:20:28,779
conscious

579
00:20:29,160 –> 00:20:31,394
competence where now it’s like riding a bike

580
00:20:31,555 –> 00:20:33,394
or driving a car. It’s like this is

581
00:20:33,394 –> 00:20:35,575
just the way of being now. Mhmm.

582
00:20:36,595 –> 00:20:38,515
I love those stages because the way I

583
00:20:38,515 –> 00:20:40,595
understand recovery, at least on the addict side

584
00:20:40,595 –> 00:20:42,674
of things, I that is probably the the

585
00:20:42,674 –> 00:20:44,595
best definition of what I have done in

586
00:20:44,595 –> 00:20:45,575
recovery was

587
00:20:46,079 –> 00:20:48,319
what the heck’s even freaking going on? How

588
00:20:48,319 –> 00:20:50,960
did this happen? Why is my disclosure 14

589
00:20:50,960 –> 00:20:53,679
pages? Like like like, how did that even

590
00:20:53,679 –> 00:20:54,179
occur?

591
00:20:54,480 –> 00:20:56,480
And then I’m head over heels with her.

592
00:20:56,480 –> 00:20:58,400
Everyone who knows me knows this yet I

593
00:20:58,400 –> 00:21:00,720
acted like somebody who completely could care less

594
00:21:00,720 –> 00:21:02,994
about her. Right? And so, I’m going through

595
00:21:02,994 –> 00:21:05,234
these understandings of how in the hell did

596
00:21:05,234 –> 00:21:06,855
this even happen. Okay.

597
00:21:07,315 –> 00:21:09,394
What don’t I know? Then, okay. Cool. What

598
00:21:09,394 –> 00:21:11,394
do I need to know to stop doing

599
00:21:11,394 –> 00:21:13,154
this? And I’m kinda just marching through and

600
00:21:13,154 –> 00:21:14,855
now, you know, reaching a place where

601
00:21:15,160 –> 00:21:16,920
I’m not perfect but I have when I

602
00:21:16,920 –> 00:21:18,519
do something, I say, you know, before we

603
00:21:18,519 –> 00:21:20,680
and you and I started recording, I say

604
00:21:20,680 –> 00:21:22,200
like, I’m now at a point where if

605
00:21:22,200 –> 00:21:24,200
I’ve offended somebody, I will go to some

606
00:21:24,200 –> 00:21:26,039
people that I trust and say, hey, I’m

607
00:21:26,039 –> 00:21:28,220
curious. I did this thing. It offended somebody.

608
00:21:28,365 –> 00:21:29,804
I’d love to talk about it and figure

609
00:21:29,804 –> 00:21:30,924
out what it was that I did that

610
00:21:30,924 –> 00:21:33,244
was offensive. Right? So I love that. I

611
00:21:33,244 –> 00:21:34,444
just I think that was such a brilliant

612
00:21:34,525 –> 00:21:35,964
for all the guys listening to that, what

613
00:21:35,964 –> 00:21:37,644
a great definition of kind of what we’re

614
00:21:37,644 –> 00:21:39,265
doing. Like how do we understand

615
00:21:39,804 –> 00:21:42,224
life and ourselves and other people

616
00:21:42,759 –> 00:21:44,919
and society enough to the point where I

617
00:21:44,919 –> 00:21:45,419
can

618
00:21:45,880 –> 00:21:46,380
consciously

619
00:21:47,559 –> 00:21:50,039
practice this skill set in a very healthy

620
00:21:50,039 –> 00:21:52,279
way, acknowledging my existence and how it interacts

621
00:21:52,279 –> 00:21:53,640
with a bunch of other people. So well

622
00:21:53,640 –> 00:21:55,640
said. I I think I’ve never correlated that

623
00:21:55,640 –> 00:21:58,545
pyramid to recovery, but it’s actually a perfect

624
00:21:58,684 –> 00:22:00,285
analogy as you look at how guys are

625
00:22:00,285 –> 00:22:01,745
kind of marching through

626
00:22:02,125 –> 00:22:03,965
one day, you know, long term recovery being,

627
00:22:03,965 –> 00:22:05,904
how is this my new life? Like, integrity

628
00:22:05,965 –> 00:22:08,445
and honesty and ruthless transparency, this is just

629
00:22:08,445 –> 00:22:09,565
the way I live now. I don’t I

630
00:22:09,565 –> 00:22:11,289
don’t see value in lying. I don’t I

631
00:22:11,289 –> 00:22:13,210
don’t know why someone would lie. What would

632
00:22:13,210 –> 00:22:15,210
I gain from that? Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant. The

633
00:22:15,210 –> 00:22:16,349
description. I love that.

634
00:22:16,970 –> 00:22:20,269
Combine all of those. Empathy, trauma organization,

635
00:22:20,570 –> 00:22:23,049
and then relational competence. Mhmm. And then we’re

636
00:22:23,049 –> 00:22:24,109
gonna really see

637
00:22:24,494 –> 00:22:27,075
and understand why our husband is

638
00:22:27,535 –> 00:22:28,035
struggling.

639
00:22:28,494 –> 00:22:30,095
What you just described is if you could,

640
00:22:30,095 –> 00:22:30,994
like, deconstruct

641
00:22:31,295 –> 00:22:34,095
grace, that was what you just described. Right?

642
00:22:34,095 –> 00:22:36,255
That’s what grace is. It’s all of those

643
00:22:36,255 –> 00:22:39,089
pieces. Understanding that people are all over the

644
00:22:39,089 –> 00:22:41,329
spectrum on there and the person judging is

645
00:22:41,329 –> 00:22:43,730
probably on there. If you’re judging someone, you’re

646
00:22:43,730 –> 00:22:46,450
probably on the spectrum with some of those.

647
00:22:46,450 –> 00:22:48,609
And you could use some work yourself. So

648
00:22:48,609 –> 00:22:50,130
I love that. And I’ve been I just

649
00:22:50,130 –> 00:22:52,724
want to clarify too. I know, like, my

650
00:22:52,724 –> 00:22:54,244
wife and I struggle with this just like

651
00:22:54,244 –> 00:22:56,164
every other couple, but I am so blessed.

652
00:22:56,164 –> 00:22:58,005
Like, I will I will say this. One

653
00:22:58,005 –> 00:22:59,845
thing that she’s done such a great job

654
00:22:59,845 –> 00:23:02,325
of is she has fought to have as

655
00:23:02,325 –> 00:23:04,650
much grace as possible the whole time. Like,

656
00:23:04,970 –> 00:23:07,529
constantly seeking to understand is what I’m demanding

657
00:23:07,529 –> 00:23:09,609
of him unrealistic? And I just I’m so

658
00:23:09,609 –> 00:23:12,009
blessed that she did that because it’s definitely

659
00:23:12,009 –> 00:23:14,029
made things a lot easier to to feel.

660
00:23:14,250 –> 00:23:15,789
I just appreciated her

661
00:23:16,170 –> 00:23:18,009
trying to make sure that she was correct

662
00:23:18,009 –> 00:23:20,410
before she put something on me or requested

663
00:23:20,410 –> 00:23:22,224
something. And I just I’m so thankful for

664
00:23:22,224 –> 00:23:24,565
that. All right. Phase two, restoration.

665
00:23:24,865 –> 00:23:27,585
My gosh. So I wanna do a little

666
00:23:27,585 –> 00:23:29,825
disclaimer before we head into this phase because

667
00:23:29,825 –> 00:23:31,744
there might be some things said and we

668
00:23:31,744 –> 00:23:32,615
do not want you to weaponize or triangulate

669
00:23:32,615 –> 00:23:32,728
this information. What is weaponization or triangulation? This

670
00:23:32,728 –> 00:23:33,285
would be when you hear

671
00:23:34,224 –> 00:23:34,724
therapeutics,

672
00:23:35,430 –> 00:23:37,509
What is weaponization or triangulation? This would be

673
00:23:37,509 –> 00:23:38,410
when you hear

674
00:23:38,789 –> 00:23:39,289
therapeutic,

675
00:23:39,590 –> 00:23:42,809
scientific, psychological information and you use it against

676
00:23:42,869 –> 00:23:44,330
somebody rather than

677
00:23:44,789 –> 00:23:47,029
for the greater good, right? So Tessa and

678
00:23:47,029 –> 00:23:49,055
I are gonna say some things. Now keep

679
00:23:49,055 –> 00:23:50,974
in mind, what is this disclaimer? We’re talking

680
00:23:50,974 –> 00:23:52,035
about a phase

681
00:23:52,494 –> 00:23:54,174
that I would say is actually quite hard

682
00:23:54,174 –> 00:23:55,615
to get to. I think you and I

683
00:23:55,615 –> 00:23:57,134
talked about this before. I think a lot

684
00:23:57,134 –> 00:23:57,795
of couples

685
00:23:58,174 –> 00:24:00,035
think they crushed it in phase one

686
00:24:00,390 –> 00:24:02,309
and they wanna jump into phase two and

687
00:24:02,309 –> 00:24:04,150
then they realize very quickly in phase two

688
00:24:04,150 –> 00:24:05,430
that they actually didn’t do that great in

689
00:24:05,430 –> 00:24:07,269
phase one. My wife and I realized this.

690
00:24:07,269 –> 00:24:08,630
And it’s such a bummer too because it’s

691
00:24:08,630 –> 00:24:10,150
like, Alright, I’m a year and a half

692
00:24:10,150 –> 00:24:12,170
in. We must be at like phase four

693
00:24:12,230 –> 00:24:12,970
by now.

694
00:24:14,305 –> 00:24:16,065
And yeah, we’re like meeting with therapists and

695
00:24:16,065 –> 00:24:18,545
like every single one is like, Yeah, you

696
00:24:18,545 –> 00:24:20,224
are very much in phase one. You are

697
00:24:20,224 –> 00:24:21,984
not. You are not. You are not ready

698
00:24:21,984 –> 00:24:23,345
for phase two. And that can be hard

699
00:24:23,345 –> 00:24:24,884
to hear. That can be really hard especially

700
00:24:25,025 –> 00:24:26,785
my population. There’s a lot of like high

701
00:24:26,785 –> 00:24:28,865
achieving men. They typically have married high achieving

702
00:24:28,865 –> 00:24:32,039
women. And so getting this conquered quickly is

703
00:24:32,039 –> 00:24:33,640
something they wanna do. But you gotta be

704
00:24:33,640 –> 00:24:35,980
careful with that. So the disclaimer is

705
00:24:36,279 –> 00:24:37,799
we are talking about phase two and I

706
00:24:37,799 –> 00:24:39,820
guess want every couple to understand

707
00:24:40,440 –> 00:24:41,960
there is a pretty damn good chance that

708
00:24:41,960 –> 00:24:43,804
you actually might not be in phase two

709
00:24:43,804 –> 00:24:45,644
or be ready for phase two. So and

710
00:24:45,644 –> 00:24:47,565
again, I’m not saying that you aren’t. I’m

711
00:24:47,565 –> 00:24:48,224
just saying

712
00:24:48,684 –> 00:24:51,505
be careful and be curious to wonder

713
00:24:51,964 –> 00:24:53,244
I guess, be open to the idea that

714
00:24:53,244 –> 00:24:54,525
you might not be in phase two or

715
00:24:54,525 –> 00:24:55,884
be ready for phase two. Just be open

716
00:24:55,884 –> 00:24:57,724
to that concept and don’t be offended when

717
00:24:57,724 –> 00:24:59,460
someone says, hey. There’s still some core principles

718
00:24:59,460 –> 00:25:00,659
that we need to go back and clean

719
00:25:00,659 –> 00:25:02,740
up. So that’ll be said, if we say

720
00:25:02,740 –> 00:25:04,019
things, I do not want you to go

721
00:25:04,019 –> 00:25:06,099
and tell your husband or your wife, whoever

722
00:25:06,099 –> 00:25:07,159
is listening to this,

723
00:25:07,460 –> 00:25:09,640
hey, I heard Tessa and Roland say this

724
00:25:09,859 –> 00:25:12,019
and you suck at that. So you’re the

725
00:25:12,019 –> 00:25:14,125
one holding back the relationship. That’s not what

726
00:25:14,125 –> 00:25:16,765
we that’s not what we intended this podcast

727
00:25:16,765 –> 00:25:18,765
to do. This podcast was supposed to help

728
00:25:18,765 –> 00:25:20,845
you guys figure out, are you in phase

729
00:25:20,845 –> 00:25:22,204
two? And if you are in phase two

730
00:25:22,204 –> 00:25:23,724
and it’s not working, maybe you need to

731
00:25:23,724 –> 00:25:25,265
go back to phase one. So anyways,

732
00:25:25,644 –> 00:25:27,565
listen to everything that we’re saying and be

733
00:25:27,565 –> 00:25:29,190
open to the fact that it may or

734
00:25:29,190 –> 00:25:30,950
may not apply to you. Go back to

735
00:25:30,950 –> 00:25:33,750
your couple’s CSAT and bring this to them

736
00:25:33,750 –> 00:25:35,990
and have them help you decide. So Tessa,

737
00:25:35,990 –> 00:25:37,929
anything you want to say from a disclaimer

738
00:25:38,069 –> 00:25:39,429
standpoint? Because I do think we need to

739
00:25:39,429 –> 00:25:42,365
be careful. I think this area is dangerous.

740
00:25:42,424 –> 00:25:43,964
I do I see people

741
00:25:44,345 –> 00:25:46,765
really take steps back in their relationship

742
00:25:47,625 –> 00:25:51,005
through just stupid little fights and disagreements and

743
00:25:51,384 –> 00:25:53,384
blaming. So any kind of things that you

744
00:25:53,384 –> 00:25:55,065
want to say before we dive into phase

745
00:25:55,065 –> 00:25:56,970
two just to help couples make sure that

746
00:25:56,970 –> 00:25:58,590
they’re listening to this in the right way?

747
00:25:58,809 –> 00:26:00,349
I think you did a great job.

748
00:26:00,890 –> 00:26:01,470
I think

749
00:26:01,769 –> 00:26:03,230
just knowing that

750
00:26:03,690 –> 00:26:04,910
for the restoration

751
00:26:05,289 –> 00:26:08,190
phase, if we look at the injustice

752
00:26:08,970 –> 00:26:11,025
and kind of, like, how

753
00:26:11,565 –> 00:26:14,125
at the beginning in the recovery phase, we’re

754
00:26:14,125 –> 00:26:16,684
looking at men sacrificing themselves a lot and

755
00:26:16,684 –> 00:26:20,365
women having entitlement rightfully so. Right? Is we’re

756
00:26:20,365 –> 00:26:23,484
closing this gap. Mhmm. And so to remember

757
00:26:23,484 –> 00:26:25,744
that that is what we are doing and

758
00:26:25,970 –> 00:26:28,210
we’re moving towards that equality. And if that

759
00:26:28,210 –> 00:26:31,170
doesn’t feel right for you, there’s probably a

760
00:26:31,170 –> 00:26:32,769
reason. I don’t know if it’s you. I

761
00:26:32,769 –> 00:26:35,329
don’t know if it’s your spouse, but definitely

762
00:26:35,329 –> 00:26:37,730
go talk to your CSAT. Mhmm. And would

763
00:26:37,730 –> 00:26:39,250
it be safe to say I’m I’m I’m

764
00:26:39,250 –> 00:26:41,025
genuinely curious on how you would answer this.

765
00:26:41,105 –> 00:26:42,805
Wouldn’t it be safe to say that

766
00:26:43,184 –> 00:26:44,644
therapists, healers, counselors,

767
00:26:44,945 –> 00:26:47,105
we would love even in that first phase

768
00:26:47,105 –> 00:26:49,345
to have that gap be as small as

769
00:26:49,345 –> 00:26:50,964
it needs to be

770
00:26:51,424 –> 00:26:53,265
for the couple to heal that we, you

771
00:26:53,265 –> 00:26:55,410
know, we wouldn’t default to this total, She

772
00:26:55,410 –> 00:26:57,009
gets entitled to ask for everything that she

773
00:26:57,009 –> 00:26:59,009
wants and you get nothing. I’m just trying

774
00:26:59,009 –> 00:27:01,190
to like the reason we do that is

775
00:27:01,650 –> 00:27:03,650
that phase is messy as heck. And I

776
00:27:03,650 –> 00:27:05,890
personally believe if we didn’t do that, my

777
00:27:05,890 –> 00:27:07,410
wife would have left me. She just would

778
00:27:07,410 –> 00:27:09,654
have. And I also would have been an

779
00:27:09,654 –> 00:27:11,255
a hole. I just would have, I don’t

780
00:27:11,255 –> 00:27:12,615
know, I would have pushed back. I would

781
00:27:12,615 –> 00:27:13,974
have tried to take an inch and take

782
00:27:13,974 –> 00:27:16,214
a mile. So I think we do that

783
00:27:16,214 –> 00:27:17,595
in that phase because

784
00:27:18,055 –> 00:27:20,214
we realize, Oh my gosh, like this phase

785
00:27:20,214 –> 00:27:21,115
needs nothing

786
00:27:21,414 –> 00:27:23,414
to go right. Even a little bit more

787
00:27:23,414 –> 00:27:25,420
to go wrong could blow this whole thing

788
00:27:25,420 –> 00:27:26,940
up. So I just wanted to ask you,

789
00:27:26,940 –> 00:27:29,180
just so couples understand, like, we do that

790
00:27:29,180 –> 00:27:31,820
because we’re trying to help you to get

791
00:27:31,820 –> 00:27:33,200
back on stable ground.

792
00:27:33,580 –> 00:27:35,259
But I I think all of us wish

793
00:27:35,259 –> 00:27:37,340
that we necessarily didn’t even have to have

794
00:27:37,340 –> 00:27:40,105
it be as lopsided as sometimes we have

795
00:27:40,105 –> 00:27:41,384
to make it. So I just I say

796
00:27:41,384 –> 00:27:42,984
that just to say, if we could just

797
00:27:42,984 –> 00:27:44,664
go at it equal, wouldn’t we try and

798
00:27:44,664 –> 00:27:46,585
do that? We just can’t. I’m trying from

799
00:27:46,585 –> 00:27:48,345
personal experience. I’ll tell you right now that

800
00:27:48,345 –> 00:27:50,505
would have never worked if we were on

801
00:27:50,505 –> 00:27:52,664
equal playing field. So how do you respond

802
00:27:52,664 –> 00:27:55,569
to my assessment of that gap? Like, aren’t

803
00:27:55,569 –> 00:27:57,169
we trying to keep it as small as

804
00:27:57,169 –> 00:27:57,750
we can

805
00:27:58,130 –> 00:28:00,950
to keep the couple on stable ground? Yeah.

806
00:28:01,250 –> 00:28:03,730
And this is such a great question. So

807
00:28:03,730 –> 00:28:04,950
the betrayed spouse

808
00:28:05,250 –> 00:28:08,144
always thought there is equality. Yes, they did.

809
00:28:08,144 –> 00:28:11,025
Oh my gosh. Yeah, absolutely. If anything, they

810
00:28:11,025 –> 00:28:13,345
gave well, in my community as high achieving

811
00:28:13,345 –> 00:28:16,484
men, if anything, they were sacrificing a lot.

812
00:28:16,784 –> 00:28:19,025
You were on work trips, you were on

813
00:28:19,025 –> 00:28:21,570
guys’ golf trips in Ireland, you were, I

814
00:28:21,570 –> 00:28:23,009
mean, you know, she was There was times

815
00:28:23,009 –> 00:28:25,730
where she was raising three young kids, two,

816
00:28:25,730 –> 00:28:27,190
four and eight alone

817
00:28:27,809 –> 00:28:30,210
so that you could explore and enhance your

818
00:28:30,210 –> 00:28:32,289
career. So, yes, they thought they were equal

819
00:28:32,289 –> 00:28:33,809
and sometimes, I would even say a lot

820
00:28:33,809 –> 00:28:36,035
of these partners, they actually were giving up

821
00:28:36,035 –> 00:28:37,815
quite a bit. And so I would say

822
00:28:38,035 –> 00:28:39,394
there actually was. I know the guy would

823
00:28:39,394 –> 00:28:40,994
probably disagree, but there was a little bit

824
00:28:40,994 –> 00:28:42,835
of a lopsided thing because we live in

825
00:28:42,835 –> 00:28:44,434
a capitalist country. And so I think there’s

826
00:28:44,434 –> 00:28:47,095
this, you know, Hey, I’ll make some sacrifices

827
00:28:47,400 –> 00:28:48,920
so that our family can be in a

828
00:28:48,920 –> 00:28:50,519
better position. So I just I wanted to

829
00:28:50,519 –> 00:28:52,119
add to that. Yes. They thought it was

830
00:28:52,119 –> 00:28:54,359
equal. And if anything, they were giving us

831
00:28:54,359 –> 00:28:56,759
some trust and some flexibility that they didn’t

832
00:28:56,759 –> 00:28:57,580
even get.

833
00:28:57,960 –> 00:29:00,279
Yeah. And so we take that what the

834
00:29:00,279 –> 00:29:01,259
wife’s reality

835
00:29:02,044 –> 00:29:03,184
was at that time,

836
00:29:03,644 –> 00:29:04,464
and then

837
00:29:04,765 –> 00:29:05,984
the betraying spouse

838
00:29:06,684 –> 00:29:09,565
chose to take more. And so they chose

839
00:29:09,565 –> 00:29:11,025
to take more is because

840
00:29:11,964 –> 00:29:13,904
the deception and secrecy

841
00:29:14,700 –> 00:29:16,000
is it took away

842
00:29:16,460 –> 00:29:17,759
the betrayed spouse

843
00:29:18,299 –> 00:29:20,700
ability to make decisions by knowing their full

844
00:29:20,700 –> 00:29:23,259
reality. Yes. Correct. And so would they have

845
00:29:23,259 –> 00:29:25,339
made the same decisions if they knew? We

846
00:29:25,339 –> 00:29:27,119
don’t know. You took that away.

847
00:29:27,464 –> 00:29:29,644
And so with that power dynamic

848
00:29:30,105 –> 00:29:32,365
Mhmm. And them being unable

849
00:29:33,065 –> 00:29:35,244
to make choices for themselves

850
00:29:36,265 –> 00:29:39,005
is there is a switch and it’s temporary.

851
00:29:39,144 –> 00:29:40,525
We’re not wanting this forever.

852
00:29:40,920 –> 00:29:42,519
Men do think like they’re like, oh, man.

853
00:29:42,519 –> 00:29:44,440
This is forever. Like, you know, like and

854
00:29:44,440 –> 00:29:46,119
they wanna give up. Right? And they’re just

855
00:29:46,119 –> 00:29:48,440
like, she’s, like, always gonna be here. And

856
00:29:48,440 –> 00:29:48,940
then

857
00:29:49,240 –> 00:29:52,600
just, like, reminding yourself of you didn’t have

858
00:29:52,600 –> 00:29:54,194
a problem when it was flipped.

859
00:29:55,234 –> 00:29:57,154
When it was flipped, you had zero problem

860
00:29:57,154 –> 00:30:00,214
with that. And so now it’s not about,

861
00:30:00,674 –> 00:30:03,554
oh, like, she wants to be talking down

862
00:30:03,554 –> 00:30:06,615
to you, but it’s let’s empower her.

863
00:30:07,289 –> 00:30:10,430
Like, let’s show her how much you care

864
00:30:10,809 –> 00:30:11,309
and

865
00:30:11,690 –> 00:30:12,509
give her

866
00:30:13,049 –> 00:30:14,430
the rights and

867
00:30:14,730 –> 00:30:16,890
the power that has been taken away for

868
00:30:16,890 –> 00:30:19,610
her so she could feel safe. And as

869
00:30:19,610 –> 00:30:21,950
she feels safe, and that’s in the recovery

870
00:30:22,009 –> 00:30:24,494
phase, we start getting this and we go

871
00:30:24,494 –> 00:30:26,734
down to the So would you say that

872
00:30:26,734 –> 00:30:28,654
phase two and I know this may not

873
00:30:28,654 –> 00:30:30,815
be documented or written but so would you

874
00:30:30,815 –> 00:30:33,214
say then that phase two kind of starts

875
00:30:33,214 –> 00:30:35,454
when we’re able to achieve that? Like what’s

876
00:30:35,454 –> 00:30:38,049
the milestone if there is one of when

877
00:30:38,049 –> 00:30:39,830
do we know that we’re

878
00:30:40,210 –> 00:30:43,029
stepping into restoration and kind of exiting

879
00:30:43,330 –> 00:30:45,490
recovery? Or I guess I wouldn’t say exiting

880
00:30:45,490 –> 00:30:46,930
recovery because I think you kind of inherit

881
00:30:47,009 –> 00:30:48,529
I think you keep all the phases as

882
00:30:48,529 –> 00:30:50,369
you go forward. So when would you know

883
00:30:50,369 –> 00:30:51,349
that you add

884
00:30:51,730 –> 00:30:52,230
restoration

885
00:30:52,690 –> 00:30:55,144
to recovery? What’s that milestone as a therapist?

886
00:30:55,144 –> 00:30:55,964
What are you looking

887
00:30:56,585 –> 00:30:59,305
for? Oh, so many things. Some sobriety time.

888
00:30:59,305 –> 00:31:01,565
We need some sobriety time underneath your belt.

889
00:31:01,625 –> 00:31:02,765
A structured disclosure,

890
00:31:03,384 –> 00:31:05,224
ideally Yeah. I like that. It needs to

891
00:31:05,224 –> 00:31:06,045
know the truth,

892
00:31:06,380 –> 00:31:06,880
boundaries

893
00:31:07,180 –> 00:31:08,240
that are respected.

894
00:31:08,700 –> 00:31:11,180
So she has to know what she needs.

895
00:31:11,180 –> 00:31:12,779
So she needs to figure out her boundaries

896
00:31:12,779 –> 00:31:13,759
and then respecting.

897
00:31:14,140 –> 00:31:16,140
Mhmm. The biggest thing that And that would

898
00:31:16,140 –> 00:31:18,700
include conflict boundaries because I think a lot

899
00:31:18,700 –> 00:31:21,265
of couples need to figure out how they’re

900
00:31:21,265 –> 00:31:22,244
gonna handle

901
00:31:22,545 –> 00:31:24,305
these really tough moments. And I think, you

902
00:31:24,305 –> 00:31:25,424
know, for my wife and I, I think

903
00:31:25,424 –> 00:31:27,345
that started really keeping us stuck in phase

904
00:31:27,345 –> 00:31:29,825
one was we stopped. In the beginning, we

905
00:31:29,825 –> 00:31:32,305
were communicating very respectfully and then we kind

906
00:31:32,305 –> 00:31:34,809
of got pretty feisty. And, and it was

907
00:31:34,809 –> 00:31:36,809
a big setback. It really kinda pulled us

908
00:31:36,809 –> 00:31:38,730
out of because what happened was she lost

909
00:31:38,730 –> 00:31:40,490
her safety. I lost mine too because I

910
00:31:40,490 –> 00:31:42,009
felt like she was accusing me of shit

911
00:31:42,009 –> 00:31:44,169
all the time. And so I just wanna

912
00:31:44,169 –> 00:31:45,690
talk about that. Is that also included in

913
00:31:45,690 –> 00:31:48,375
boundaries as, like, are you guys communicating like

914
00:31:48,454 –> 00:31:49,355
healthy adults?

915
00:31:49,894 –> 00:31:52,714
Yeah. You jumped ahead. You jumped ahead. So

916
00:31:53,894 –> 00:31:57,255
after boundaries, emotional regulation. Okay. K. Yeah. We

917
00:31:57,255 –> 00:32:00,214
need emotional regulation for both people for them

918
00:32:00,214 –> 00:32:02,599
to be able to have boundaries and then

919
00:32:02,599 –> 00:32:05,179
have safety guards. Like, we need to plan

920
00:32:05,240 –> 00:32:07,000
time outs. Like, we need,

921
00:32:07,640 –> 00:32:11,159
when conflict comes Yeah. Out. So a lot

922
00:32:11,159 –> 00:32:12,460
of individual work,

923
00:32:12,919 –> 00:32:16,299
some couples work on just being able to

924
00:32:16,865 –> 00:32:17,365
communicate

925
00:32:18,305 –> 00:32:18,805
and

926
00:32:19,345 –> 00:32:21,825
not even have those tough conversations at the

927
00:32:21,825 –> 00:32:22,325
beginning.

928
00:32:22,785 –> 00:32:25,265
And I think that is the hardest part

929
00:32:25,265 –> 00:32:28,325
because betrayed spouses, they wanna talk about it.

930
00:32:28,465 –> 00:32:29,125
And then,

931
00:32:29,590 –> 00:32:31,430
oh, I think what the most difficult part

932
00:32:31,430 –> 00:32:32,090
is sometimes

933
00:32:33,670 –> 00:32:36,150
is, of course, they want to talk about

934
00:32:36,150 –> 00:32:37,850
it with their husband,

935
00:32:38,549 –> 00:32:41,450
and they’re wanting to feel heard and understood,

936
00:32:42,034 –> 00:32:44,115
and they don’t have the skills. Mhmm. Mhmm.

937
00:32:44,115 –> 00:32:46,034
They have no idea what they’re doing. Mhmm.

938
00:32:46,034 –> 00:32:48,115
And then it’s Well, I don’t know how

939
00:32:48,115 –> 00:32:50,355
to listen either because she’s saying shit to

940
00:32:50,355 –> 00:32:51,414
me that I’m like,

941
00:32:51,875 –> 00:32:53,474
oh, man. I’m way this is way over

942
00:32:53,474 –> 00:32:54,694
my pay grade. Right?

943
00:32:54,994 –> 00:32:56,934
Yeah. And it’s chronic disappointment.

944
00:32:57,319 –> 00:32:59,819
Yep. And it just is further and further

945
00:32:59,880 –> 00:33:00,940
detaches you.

946
00:33:01,319 –> 00:33:02,140
And so,

947
00:33:03,319 –> 00:33:03,980
oh, couples,

948
00:33:04,359 –> 00:33:04,859
when

949
00:33:05,160 –> 00:33:07,799
I, you know, see them, the hardest thing

950
00:33:07,799 –> 00:33:09,880
to say to them, but it’s just the

951
00:33:09,880 –> 00:33:10,380
reality,

952
00:33:10,924 –> 00:33:13,904
The husbands love this. Wives don’t. And

953
00:33:14,684 –> 00:33:16,144
so, is right now,

954
00:33:16,605 –> 00:33:18,704
we are not gonna talk about the betrayal.

955
00:33:19,484 –> 00:33:20,304
We will.

956
00:33:20,765 –> 00:33:21,505
We will

957
00:33:22,125 –> 00:33:24,284
eventually, but we can’t right now. We can’t

958
00:33:24,284 –> 00:33:26,740
address that. And the reason oh, no. Let

959
00:33:26,740 –> 00:33:29,559
me be clear. This is after, like, disclosure.

960
00:33:29,700 –> 00:33:32,259
Like, so we’re we’re working towards Yeah. So

961
00:33:32,259 –> 00:33:35,460
crisis damage control. Right? We’re, like, working towards,

962
00:33:35,460 –> 00:33:37,059
like, do I even wanna stay with this

963
00:33:37,059 –> 00:33:39,220
guy? Right? So we get through that. Okay.

964
00:33:39,220 –> 00:33:42,575
Cool. Yes. And the reason for that is

965
00:33:43,195 –> 00:33:45,275
we have to teach both of you guys

966
00:33:45,275 –> 00:33:47,755
skills. You need to stabilize your trauma, and

967
00:33:47,755 –> 00:33:50,075
he has to learn empathy, and he has

968
00:33:50,075 –> 00:33:51,215
to learn the communication.

969
00:33:51,755 –> 00:33:52,494
And so

970
00:33:53,150 –> 00:33:55,549
with that is that is kind of going

971
00:33:55,549 –> 00:33:58,750
into the restoration phase. Yes. So define that,

972
00:33:58,750 –> 00:34:00,589
I have two questions that I wanna ask

973
00:34:00,589 –> 00:34:02,829
that are kind of like important, I think.

974
00:34:02,829 –> 00:34:04,450
But I want you to first to define

975
00:34:04,589 –> 00:34:06,450
for everybody, what is restoration?

976
00:34:06,875 –> 00:34:09,114
What is this whole phase about? Because I

977
00:34:09,114 –> 00:34:10,394
I do. I think a lot of people

978
00:34:10,394 –> 00:34:11,914
think they’re in it. They think they’re past

979
00:34:11,914 –> 00:34:14,635
it. They think they’re doing it well. Redefine

980
00:34:14,635 –> 00:34:15,614
it for us, please.

981
00:34:16,155 –> 00:34:17,775
So this is

982
00:34:18,635 –> 00:34:20,094
the longest phase.

983
00:34:20,780 –> 00:34:23,579
It is the hardest phase, and I think

984
00:34:23,579 –> 00:34:25,980
that is because you’re doing the deep grief

985
00:34:25,980 –> 00:34:27,760
work Yeah. That

986
00:34:28,059 –> 00:34:30,000
it’s hard. It sucks.

987
00:34:30,300 –> 00:34:33,420
A lot of childhood wounds come up that

988
00:34:33,420 –> 00:34:35,199
are trying to uncover.

989
00:34:35,964 –> 00:34:38,704
I think the hardest part in this

990
00:34:39,885 –> 00:34:41,585
is being able to emotionally

991
00:34:42,364 –> 00:34:45,565
regulate. So your question, I’m sorry, is what

992
00:34:45,565 –> 00:34:46,464
is restoration?

993
00:34:46,844 –> 00:34:47,804
It is Yeah. If you had to, you

994
00:34:47,804 –> 00:34:49,324
know, if you had to briefly define it,

995
00:34:49,324 –> 00:34:51,005
like, I just want people to understand, like,

996
00:34:51,005 –> 00:34:51,780
what we’re talking

997
00:34:52,340 –> 00:34:53,640
about. Rebuilding connection.

998
00:34:54,019 –> 00:34:54,519
K.

999
00:34:54,820 –> 00:34:56,119
Is rebuilding connection.

1000
00:34:56,739 –> 00:34:59,460
The dust has settled. Right? Mhmm. And we

1001
00:34:59,460 –> 00:35:01,000
are going to

1002
00:35:01,860 –> 00:35:03,400
heal old wounds,

1003
00:35:04,099 –> 00:35:06,599
and this is where we have more forgiveness

1004
00:35:06,820 –> 00:35:07,320
talk.

1005
00:35:07,974 –> 00:35:11,275
And this is where we build more relational

1006
00:35:11,335 –> 00:35:11,835
skills,

1007
00:35:12,214 –> 00:35:13,434
more importantly overall.

1008
00:35:14,054 –> 00:35:15,894
And I think this is what drew you

1009
00:35:15,894 –> 00:35:17,034
to reach out to me.

1010
00:35:17,335 –> 00:35:19,335
Wow. That post was so good. I love

1011
00:35:19,335 –> 00:35:21,750
that. I think that might be phase three,

1012
00:35:21,750 –> 00:35:23,829
that post. But anyways, I love that post

1013
00:35:23,829 –> 00:35:26,230
so much. So this is phase two. The

1014
00:35:26,230 –> 00:35:27,449
post is phase two.

1015
00:35:27,750 –> 00:35:29,210
And I think this is where

1016
00:35:29,989 –> 00:35:30,890
even therapists

1017
00:35:31,349 –> 00:35:33,929
miss the mark here is vision.

1018
00:35:34,284 –> 00:35:34,784
Mhmm.

1019
00:35:35,085 –> 00:35:37,405
Is what is our vision for this marriage?

1020
00:35:37,405 –> 00:35:39,885
Mhmm. Mhmm. And so we are not looking

1021
00:35:39,885 –> 00:35:41,585
at the betrayal right there.

1022
00:35:41,965 –> 00:35:43,565
We’re not looking at the pain that has

1023
00:35:43,565 –> 00:35:45,405
been caused. What we’re looking at is what

1024
00:35:45,405 –> 00:35:47,724
are we working towards? What are we trying

1025
00:35:47,724 –> 00:35:50,400
to build? What type of husband and father

1026
00:35:50,400 –> 00:35:51,920
do I wanna be? What type of wife

1027
00:35:51,920 –> 00:35:54,480
and mother do I wanna be? When I

1028
00:35:54,480 –> 00:35:54,980
envision,

1029
00:35:55,839 –> 00:35:57,519
if I were to look into a window

1030
00:35:57,519 –> 00:35:59,440
and see my future, what do I want

1031
00:35:59,440 –> 00:36:01,139
my family to look like? Mhmm.

1032
00:36:01,599 –> 00:36:02,099
And

1033
00:36:02,644 –> 00:36:04,585
what is that gonna take? Mhmm.

1034
00:36:04,964 –> 00:36:07,284
But again, I know that it sounds very

1035
00:36:07,284 –> 00:36:09,844
simple, you guys. So when when when Tessa

1036
00:36:09,844 –> 00:36:11,444
posted this post, I think I reached out

1037
00:36:11,444 –> 00:36:13,525
to you on it because it was so

1038
00:36:13,525 –> 00:36:15,065
freaking true. I read it

1039
00:36:15,420 –> 00:36:17,579
and I was just like, Oh my gosh,

1040
00:36:17,579 –> 00:36:19,819
I’m gonna pull it up right now. So

1041
00:36:19,819 –> 00:36:22,300
there was four boxes on her post. And

1042
00:36:22,300 –> 00:36:23,339
for those of you who wanna see it,

1043
00:36:23,339 –> 00:36:25,679
it’s Talking with Tessa, T E S A

1044
00:36:25,819 –> 00:36:27,819
is her handle. And I love following you

1045
00:36:27,819 –> 00:36:29,519
by the way. You’re such a great follow.

1046
00:36:29,694 –> 00:36:31,614
I’ll inflate your head in the intro to

1047
00:36:31,614 –> 00:36:33,934
this podcast that I record separately, but I’m

1048
00:36:33,934 –> 00:36:36,114
really truly impressed with you. You’re an impressive

1049
00:36:36,255 –> 00:36:36,755
therapist.

1050
00:36:37,054 –> 00:36:38,674
Very impressive. I’ve seriously.

1051
00:36:39,135 –> 00:36:41,054
So she had these four boxes and she

1052
00:36:41,054 –> 00:36:43,635
says, What is our vision for this marriage?

1053
00:36:44,130 –> 00:36:47,730
Are the conditions right for safe couples work?

1054
00:36:47,730 –> 00:36:50,049
Or do we need to start individually first?

1055
00:36:50,049 –> 00:36:51,969
Which I love that, right? That’s like asking

1056
00:36:51,969 –> 00:36:52,469
like,

1057
00:36:52,849 –> 00:36:54,769
are we in the renewal phase? What’s going

1058
00:36:54,769 –> 00:36:55,829
on with this? And

1059
00:36:56,210 –> 00:36:57,569
let me rephrase that too. I don’t think

1060
00:36:57,569 –> 00:36:59,010
it necessarily means you guys are in the

1061
00:36:59,010 –> 00:37:01,465
renewal phase. I do think people, my wife

1062
00:37:01,465 –> 00:37:02,905
and I were one of them. We were

1063
00:37:02,905 –> 00:37:05,304
extremely traumatized, both of us in very different

1064
00:37:05,304 –> 00:37:07,465
ways. And so, it was really hard for

1065
00:37:07,465 –> 00:37:10,344
us to renew because we were both just

1066
00:37:10,344 –> 00:37:13,224
dealing with so much stuff that we had

1067
00:37:13,224 –> 00:37:15,400
tried to get past and we thought we

1068
00:37:15,400 –> 00:37:18,059
were over. And then this betrayal thing happens.

1069
00:37:18,280 –> 00:37:20,039
The other two questions were, am I willing

1070
00:37:20,039 –> 00:37:22,039
to commit to pursuing it even if my

1071
00:37:22,039 –> 00:37:24,599
spouse isn’t perfect yet? Which I freaking love

1072
00:37:24,599 –> 00:37:26,280
that one. I think that is such a

1073
00:37:26,280 –> 00:37:28,545
great And guys, I wouldn’t want you That

1074
00:37:28,704 –> 00:37:30,065
that question applies to you too. I’m sure

1075
00:37:30,065 –> 00:37:32,144
guys read this and say, yeah, you know,

1076
00:37:32,144 –> 00:37:34,144
honey, you know, are you willing if I’m

1077
00:37:34,144 –> 00:37:36,304
not perfect? Like guys, you need to consider

1078
00:37:36,304 –> 00:37:37,505
this too because a lot of the way

1079
00:37:37,505 –> 00:37:39,664
she’s treating you is from her own stuff.

1080
00:37:39,664 –> 00:37:41,424
You know, she watched Disney movies where this

1081
00:37:41,424 –> 00:37:42,719
wasn’t supposed to happen to her.

1082
00:37:43,119 –> 00:37:44,559
Right? She’s, you know, she wants a cheater

1083
00:37:44,559 –> 00:37:46,159
always a cheater. Like guys, she’s heard a

1084
00:37:46,159 –> 00:37:48,159
lot of stuff that she’s now trying to

1085
00:37:48,159 –> 00:37:48,900
deal with

1086
00:37:49,280 –> 00:37:51,679
and allow space to heal. So you need

1087
00:37:51,679 –> 00:37:53,440
to understand, you know, she was raised in

1088
00:37:53,440 –> 00:37:55,199
a world that said to leave guys like

1089
00:37:55,199 –> 00:37:57,375
you. So her staying, like you guys don’t

1090
00:37:57,375 –> 00:37:59,295
understand. So it’s a really big ask. And

1091
00:37:59,295 –> 00:38:00,434
then the last one was,

1092
00:38:00,735 –> 00:38:02,335
what would it look like for both of

1093
00:38:02,335 –> 00:38:03,394
us to courageously

1094
00:38:03,775 –> 00:38:06,094
step into healing together? And I just it’s

1095
00:38:06,175 –> 00:38:07,135
they sound like

1096
00:38:07,769 –> 00:38:09,849
I know when we read these exercises, they

1097
00:38:09,849 –> 00:38:12,090
sound like cute and silly. But I’m telling

1098
00:38:12,090 –> 00:38:14,409
you, sit down with your wife. So it’s

1099
00:38:14,409 –> 00:38:16,930
Tessa’s, follow her on Instagram. It’s her September

1100
00:38:16,930 –> 00:38:17,869
29 post.

1101
00:38:18,250 –> 00:38:19,690
I’m telling you, you and your wife go

1102
00:38:19,690 –> 00:38:21,449
do these. I do not think it’s a

1103
00:38:21,449 –> 00:38:24,025
fluffy silly exercise. I think it will spark

1104
00:38:24,025 –> 00:38:27,445
a lot of deep conversation about stuff that

1105
00:38:27,664 –> 00:38:29,025
I think you thought you were on the

1106
00:38:29,025 –> 00:38:30,704
same page with and things were clear. And

1107
00:38:30,704 –> 00:38:32,545
I think you guys are defined. It’s really

1108
00:38:32,545 –> 00:38:34,545
poorly defined. So then again, if it’s poorly

1109
00:38:34,545 –> 00:38:35,045
defined,

1110
00:38:35,425 –> 00:38:37,505
wouldn’t that explain as to why you guys

1111
00:38:37,505 –> 00:38:40,289
are having a hard time maybe building this

1112
00:38:40,289 –> 00:38:42,210
thing together? I loved it so much. I

1113
00:38:42,210 –> 00:38:43,570
thought that was great. Do you wanna comment

1114
00:38:43,570 –> 00:38:44,769
on that post before I ask? I have

1115
00:38:44,769 –> 00:38:46,289
three questions for you that I need you

1116
00:38:46,289 –> 00:38:47,970
to answer before we get done, but do

1117
00:38:47,970 –> 00:38:49,490
you wanna make any comments before I get

1118
00:38:49,490 –> 00:38:51,490
done? Yes. So I love the way you

1119
00:38:51,490 –> 00:38:53,534
said that poorly defined. Yeah. I think that’s

1120
00:38:53,534 –> 00:38:55,775
where, like, betrayal or not, I think this

1121
00:38:55,775 –> 00:38:58,014
is where all couples go wrong. And, you

1122
00:38:58,014 –> 00:38:59,694
know, disc two, I think this is where

1123
00:38:59,694 –> 00:39:01,534
guys this is why guys slip and relapse.

1124
00:39:01,534 –> 00:39:03,454
I don’t think they have defined their recovery.

1125
00:39:03,454 –> 00:39:05,135
I think they have a box checking recovery

1126
00:39:05,135 –> 00:39:07,460
that they stole from books and other people.

1127
00:39:07,460 –> 00:39:09,400
I don’t think they actually know why they

1128
00:39:10,019 –> 00:39:12,099
did this and so it’s not gone and

1129
00:39:12,099 –> 00:39:13,539
then it comes back. But anyways, that’s a

1130
00:39:13,539 –> 00:39:15,880
different podcast. So so, yeah, it’s totally defined.

1131
00:39:16,579 –> 00:39:18,199
Yes. So the vision

1132
00:39:18,500 –> 00:39:19,480
is your anger.

1133
00:39:19,859 –> 00:39:21,079
Yeah. So when

1134
00:39:22,034 –> 00:39:23,175
you get resentful,

1135
00:39:23,795 –> 00:39:25,414
wife or husband, whoever,

1136
00:39:25,875 –> 00:39:27,394
is like we need to go back to

1137
00:39:27,394 –> 00:39:29,635
the anchor. And as the couple’s therapist is

1138
00:39:29,635 –> 00:39:31,815
holding that anchor for the coupleship.

1139
00:39:32,194 –> 00:39:34,835
Mhmm. And so your therapist should know what

1140
00:39:34,835 –> 00:39:37,900
your vision of a marriage is Mhmm. And

1141
00:39:38,039 –> 00:39:40,359
should be helping you achieve that. And when

1142
00:39:40,359 –> 00:39:42,599
you start wandering off, it’s like, I’m gonna

1143
00:39:42,599 –> 00:39:44,139
bring you back. Like

1144
00:39:44,920 –> 00:39:46,679
and it goes down to values, and that’s

1145
00:39:46,679 –> 00:39:48,405
why I like the way you said it’s

1146
00:39:48,485 –> 00:39:51,465
poorly defined is like Yeah. I love that.

1147
00:39:52,005 –> 00:39:53,684
The way you worded that because here’s the

1148
00:39:53,684 –> 00:39:56,025
thing guys like this is why business partnerships

1149
00:39:56,324 –> 00:39:59,045
tend to resolve things and handle things better

1150
00:39:59,045 –> 00:40:01,045
than a lot of relationships because it’s like,

1151
00:40:01,045 –> 00:40:02,804
hey, this is our mission statement and what

1152
00:40:02,804 –> 00:40:03,864
we said we were building.

1153
00:40:04,409 –> 00:40:07,050
You’re doing that is inconsistent with our vision.

1154
00:40:07,050 –> 00:40:08,969
So are we changing our vision? Because this

1155
00:40:08,969 –> 00:40:10,010
is the first time I’ve heard of that,

1156
00:40:10,010 –> 00:40:12,969
right? So it’s a very constructive honest conversation

1157
00:40:12,969 –> 00:40:14,730
about, hey, we committed to this and it

1158
00:40:14,730 –> 00:40:16,190
looks like you’re changing the rules.

1159
00:40:16,965 –> 00:40:19,285
That we don’t have those conversations in marriage.

1160
00:40:19,285 –> 00:40:21,684
Why? Because we didn’t talk about this. Most

1161
00:40:21,684 –> 00:40:24,965
people never talked about pornography. Maybe one little

1162
00:40:24,965 –> 00:40:26,805
sentence and it was three dates in. Of

1163
00:40:26,805 –> 00:40:28,965
course, the guy’s gonna lie. But that’s the

1164
00:40:28,965 –> 00:40:30,719
thing is like, we haven’t talked about, like,

1165
00:40:30,719 –> 00:40:33,219
what’s your vision of what a dyad is?

1166
00:40:33,360 –> 00:40:35,119
When I put that finger on, we say

1167
00:40:35,119 –> 00:40:36,800
I do. What do you see a dyad

1168
00:40:36,800 –> 00:40:38,400
is? No one told me. I don’t know

1169
00:40:38,400 –> 00:40:40,239
if you listen to the podcast with Jake

1170
00:40:40,239 –> 00:40:42,654
Porter and I, but, like, I had a

1171
00:40:42,654 –> 00:40:44,454
moment on there where, like, I was just

1172
00:40:44,574 –> 00:40:46,335
I couldn’t like, my mind went blank and

1173
00:40:46,335 –> 00:40:48,414
I was just Jake said, you know, women

1174
00:40:48,414 –> 00:40:51,375
have this unity dyad in their mind of

1175
00:40:51,375 –> 00:40:53,214
what they’re getting into. For me, you know,

1176
00:40:53,214 –> 00:40:55,054
I just had a kick ass party, drink

1177
00:40:55,054 –> 00:40:55,875
some champagne,

1178
00:40:56,390 –> 00:40:57,750
dance with your friends and then go to

1179
00:40:57,750 –> 00:40:59,269
your little honeymoon, go to work on Monday

1180
00:40:59,269 –> 00:41:01,590
and my life’s kind of the same. Whereas

1181
00:41:01,590 –> 00:41:02,949
I think a lot of these ladies like

1182
00:41:02,949 –> 00:41:04,789
marriage was just a very, very different thing.

1183
00:41:04,789 –> 00:41:06,949
So I think I just I love that

1184
00:41:06,949 –> 00:41:09,110
post because it was like, how the hell

1185
00:41:09,110 –> 00:41:10,570
do you guys know

1186
00:41:11,085 –> 00:41:13,085
what you’re doing and where you’re going? And

1187
00:41:13,085 –> 00:41:14,545
if you are the type of person,

1188
00:41:14,925 –> 00:41:17,085
her too, betray partner too, like, are you

1189
00:41:17,085 –> 00:41:18,764
guys the type of people who can even

1190
00:41:18,764 –> 00:41:20,844
have this relationship, right? And this is something

1191
00:41:20,844 –> 00:41:23,984
that’s worth discussing because under this betrayal dynamic,

1192
00:41:24,429 –> 00:41:26,909
the odds are already like just stacked against

1193
00:41:26,909 –> 00:41:28,429
you. If you guys don’t have the clarity,

1194
00:41:28,429 –> 00:41:29,869
oh my gosh, like you’re making a hard

1195
00:41:29,869 –> 00:41:31,710
situation worse. So anyway, sorry to interrupt you.

1196
00:41:31,710 –> 00:41:33,469
I just I just it’s so freaking true.

1197
00:41:33,469 –> 00:41:33,969
Right?

1198
00:41:34,349 –> 00:41:36,989
Yeah. No. I agree. Premarital counseling, you guys

1199
00:41:36,989 –> 00:41:37,809
with the CSAT,

1200
00:41:40,034 –> 00:41:43,155
Like, not Statistically, you probably engage in some

1201
00:41:43,155 –> 00:41:45,074
deceptive sexual practice. So let’s go ahead and

1202
00:41:45,074 –> 00:41:46,434
see if you have to check our boxes.

1203
00:41:46,434 –> 00:41:48,275
Yeah. Exactly. I love that. What did they

1204
00:41:48,275 –> 00:41:50,030
say? I saw a survey that said it

1205
00:41:50,030 –> 00:41:51,650
was like eighteen percent of men

1206
00:41:51,949 –> 00:41:53,789
would fall into the category of like addictive

1207
00:41:53,789 –> 00:41:56,909
or compulsive. And then seventy eight percent of

1208
00:41:56,909 –> 00:41:57,409
men

1209
00:41:57,949 –> 00:42:01,150
are hiding something sexually from their partner. Seventy

1210
00:42:01,150 –> 00:42:03,335
eight. So anyways, everybody listening to this, ask

1211
00:42:03,335 –> 00:42:04,694
your partner what is that thing that you’re

1212
00:42:04,694 –> 00:42:05,594
not telling me?

1213
00:42:07,335 –> 00:42:09,014
So I have three questions that need to

1214
00:42:09,014 –> 00:42:10,954
be asked. So the first one is

1215
00:42:11,335 –> 00:42:13,014
the one that I know every guy is

1216
00:42:13,014 –> 00:42:14,855
like rooting for me to ask you like,

1217
00:42:14,855 –> 00:42:16,619
Hey, Roland, you got to bring this up.

1218
00:42:16,860 –> 00:42:17,360
There

1219
00:42:17,660 –> 00:42:19,519
is a lot of guys who believe,

1220
00:42:20,059 –> 00:42:22,800
sorry, we’re trade partners, that they don’t want

1221
00:42:23,099 –> 00:42:26,220
to give the one up back. That they

1222
00:42:26,220 –> 00:42:28,940
don’t wanna let this go because they believe

1223
00:42:28,940 –> 00:42:30,400
if I get over this,

1224
00:42:31,074 –> 00:42:33,974
then I am saying that it was okay.

1225
00:42:34,035 –> 00:42:35,414
If he’s not suffering

1226
00:42:35,795 –> 00:42:38,114
and feeling like a piece of shit, he’s

1227
00:42:38,114 –> 00:42:39,635
gonna do this to me again. So there’s

1228
00:42:39,635 –> 00:42:42,114
a lot of guys that feel as if

1229
00:42:42,114 –> 00:42:44,275
they are being held in this one down

1230
00:42:44,275 –> 00:42:44,775
position

1231
00:42:45,539 –> 00:42:46,039
for

1232
00:42:46,340 –> 00:42:47,559
resentment, contempt,

1233
00:42:47,940 –> 00:42:48,440
control.

1234
00:42:48,980 –> 00:42:50,900
What would you say to that? Because I

1235
00:42:50,900 –> 00:42:51,719
don’t necessarily

1236
00:42:52,099 –> 00:42:54,099
disagree. Some of these practices, I’m just like,

1237
00:42:54,099 –> 00:42:56,179
Ugh, this is so unhealthy. How do you

1238
00:42:56,179 –> 00:42:58,420
respond to a guy who says, Hey, I

1239
00:42:58,420 –> 00:42:59,640
feel like she’s

1240
00:43:00,224 –> 00:43:02,945
keeping me here. How would you respond to

1241
00:43:02,945 –> 00:43:05,025
that and what does that do when we’re

1242
00:43:05,025 –> 00:43:06,005
talking about restoration?

1243
00:43:06,704 –> 00:43:09,985
Yeah. And so this might surprise you, but

1244
00:43:09,985 –> 00:43:11,445
I’m like, she may.

1245
00:43:11,744 –> 00:43:13,684
She may be keeping you there. And

1246
00:43:14,340 –> 00:43:16,039
what that is is safety seeking.

1247
00:43:16,340 –> 00:43:18,739
Mhmm. Safety seeking behavior that gives her a

1248
00:43:18,739 –> 00:43:20,980
little bit more control. It makes her feel

1249
00:43:20,980 –> 00:43:23,619
a little bit safe. And a book that

1250
00:43:23,619 –> 00:43:26,579
describes this extremely well is Michelle May’s the

1251
00:43:26,820 –> 00:43:28,420
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Guys, if you are

1252
00:43:28,420 –> 00:43:30,714
you talking about the betrayal by? Yes. Yeah,

1253
00:43:30,714 –> 00:43:32,315
guys. If you guys have not read that

1254
00:43:32,315 –> 00:43:32,815
book,

1255
00:43:33,114 –> 00:43:34,255
it needs to be

1256
00:43:34,635 –> 00:43:36,574
a semi annual staple. I

1257
00:43:37,755 –> 00:43:39,914
hate, Tessa, I’ll be completely honest. I hate

1258
00:43:39,914 –> 00:43:42,094
reading it now. It brings up

1259
00:43:42,394 –> 00:43:44,289
like it just, it Oh my gosh, am

1260
00:43:44,289 –> 00:43:46,210
I getting nauseous? Like when I read it

1261
00:43:46,210 –> 00:43:47,349
now after

1262
00:43:47,650 –> 00:43:49,269
my wife and I are so like

1263
00:43:49,730 –> 00:43:51,269
to hear it is just,

1264
00:43:52,130 –> 00:43:55,250
I just can’t believe that I inflicted such

1265
00:43:55,250 –> 00:43:57,569
pain on her. So yes, Tessa, everybody, you

1266
00:43:57,569 –> 00:43:58,875
know, thank you for bringing that up. Guys,

1267
00:43:58,875 –> 00:44:00,894
if you’re not listening to and or reading

1268
00:44:01,195 –> 00:44:03,434
The Betrayal of Mine twice a year, you’re

1269
00:44:03,434 –> 00:44:06,155
missing out on some massive ways to really

1270
00:44:06,155 –> 00:44:07,994
crawl into the hole with your wife and

1271
00:44:07,994 –> 00:44:09,054
make her feel hurt.

1272
00:44:09,434 –> 00:44:12,300
Yeah. To understand, to get her perspective, and

1273
00:44:12,300 –> 00:44:15,019
to know what she’s going through. And what’s

1274
00:44:15,019 –> 00:44:17,579
great about that is what you said earlier

1275
00:44:17,579 –> 00:44:18,559
is I could

1276
00:44:18,940 –> 00:44:22,000
look at another spouse that is really struggling

1277
00:44:22,140 –> 00:44:23,820
and have empathy, and I struggle to have

1278
00:44:23,820 –> 00:44:25,660
empathy for my wife. We’ll read that book,

1279
00:44:25,660 –> 00:44:26,984
and it’s gonna give you a lot of

1280
00:44:26,984 –> 00:44:28,344
insight of what you’re working on. Yeah, sorry

1281
00:44:28,344 –> 00:44:30,585
guys. It’s a tough read, man. I’ll be

1282
00:44:30,585 –> 00:44:32,025
honest, the first two times I read it,

1283
00:44:32,025 –> 00:44:33,704
Tessa, I think I went into like a

1284
00:44:33,704 –> 00:44:35,085
dorsal state. I just,

1285
00:44:35,625 –> 00:44:36,684
I couldn’t handle

1286
00:44:36,984 –> 00:44:38,905
what I did. But it is very important

1287
00:44:38,905 –> 00:44:40,444
to read because I think you understand.

1288
00:44:41,159 –> 00:44:43,639
I know it looks like she wants to

1289
00:44:43,639 –> 00:44:45,960
punish you. That is not what she’s doing.

1290
00:44:45,960 –> 00:44:48,920
Michelle calls it pain shopping. There’s these safety

1291
00:44:48,920 –> 00:44:51,719
seeking behaviors that do not create safety. And

1292
00:44:51,719 –> 00:44:53,319
so I want you to answer this. I

1293
00:44:53,319 –> 00:44:54,139
know what Michelle

1294
00:44:54,760 –> 00:44:56,954
says, but I want you to answer. So

1295
00:44:56,954 –> 00:44:58,894
for the partners listening to this,

1296
00:44:59,594 –> 00:45:02,094
how do they realize that that’s not creating

1297
00:45:02,235 –> 00:45:05,135
safety and access? It’s actually just like hurting

1298
00:45:05,515 –> 00:45:08,155
it’s just hurting you and everyone involved. It

1299
00:45:08,155 –> 00:45:09,515
seems like the partner has to come to

1300
00:45:09,515 –> 00:45:12,069
that conclusion themselves for them to stop changing.

1301
00:45:12,069 –> 00:45:13,190
I know my wife did. She had to

1302
00:45:13,190 –> 00:45:15,349
realize that this is not creating safety. This

1303
00:45:15,349 –> 00:45:17,109
is just hurting me and hurting and by

1304
00:45:17,109 –> 00:45:19,349
me, I mean her. Hurting herself and hurting

1305
00:45:19,349 –> 00:45:21,510
the marriage. What do we do there? Because

1306
00:45:21,510 –> 00:45:23,769
I know as the addict, you can’t confront

1307
00:45:23,964 –> 00:45:25,644
your wife on this. That’s not gonna go

1308
00:45:25,644 –> 00:45:27,484
well. So what do we do if you’re

1309
00:45:27,484 –> 00:45:28,464
stuck in that situation?

1310
00:45:28,925 –> 00:45:30,625
Yeah. This is her work.

1311
00:45:31,005 –> 00:45:33,244
Addict can’t control it and can’t address it.

1312
00:45:33,244 –> 00:45:35,244
This is a part of her betrayal trauma

1313
00:45:35,244 –> 00:45:37,344
recovery work that she needs to do.

1314
00:45:37,739 –> 00:45:38,239
And

1315
00:45:38,619 –> 00:45:40,239
this will be where

1316
00:45:40,780 –> 00:45:41,280
individually

1317
00:45:41,739 –> 00:45:44,079
looking at how am I trying to manage

1318
00:45:44,619 –> 00:45:46,000
my husband. Mhmm.

1319
00:45:47,019 –> 00:45:49,905
And how is that truly not serving me.

1320
00:45:50,144 –> 00:45:50,644
Mhmm.

1321
00:45:50,945 –> 00:45:53,925
And how that is hurting me more. And

1322
00:45:54,864 –> 00:45:56,565
that’s very individualized

1323
00:45:57,344 –> 00:45:57,844
of,

1324
00:45:58,385 –> 00:46:00,864
you know, this is keeping them in their

1325
00:46:00,864 –> 00:46:01,364
pain,

1326
00:46:01,664 –> 00:46:03,445
and it would be really helpful

1327
00:46:03,744 –> 00:46:06,900
for a therapist to map that out for

1328
00:46:06,900 –> 00:46:08,039
the betrayed spouse.

1329
00:46:08,579 –> 00:46:10,739
And so that’s why this is a specialty,

1330
00:46:10,739 –> 00:46:12,599
and you need to have a therapist knowing

1331
00:46:12,980 –> 00:46:14,039
what they’re doing

1332
00:46:14,739 –> 00:46:16,739
to be able to help a betrayed spouse

1333
00:46:16,739 –> 00:46:17,320
do that

1334
00:46:17,699 –> 00:46:18,760
and take responsibility

1335
00:46:19,059 –> 00:46:20,440
for themselves. And then

1336
00:46:20,784 –> 00:46:23,204
the hard part is is grief, is grieving

1337
00:46:23,664 –> 00:46:25,985
that I don’t have control over this. Mhmm.

1338
00:46:25,985 –> 00:46:28,304
And it’s scary, and he could hurt me

1339
00:46:28,304 –> 00:46:29,925
again. Mhmm. And

1340
00:46:30,625 –> 00:46:33,344
me wanting him to suffer and for me

1341
00:46:33,344 –> 00:46:34,644
to inflict shame

1342
00:46:35,550 –> 00:46:36,050
is

1343
00:46:36,430 –> 00:46:39,410
not helping. It is just creating more disconnection.

1344
00:46:40,030 –> 00:46:42,110
And that is something that probably has to

1345
00:46:42,110 –> 00:46:44,369
be pointed out to the betrayed spouse

1346
00:46:45,150 –> 00:46:45,650
and

1347
00:46:46,110 –> 00:46:48,130
to the coupleship itself

1348
00:46:48,824 –> 00:46:51,784
more than once. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. This is

1349
00:46:51,784 –> 00:46:53,864
something that’s worked through over a period of

1350
00:46:53,864 –> 00:46:54,364
time.

1351
00:46:54,664 –> 00:46:56,824
So my answer to your question is she

1352
00:46:56,824 –> 00:46:58,284
probably is trying to control.

1353
00:46:59,065 –> 00:47:01,545
Yep. Yep. And guys, what I would say

1354
00:47:01,545 –> 00:47:03,385
in response to that, because I know you’re

1355
00:47:03,385 –> 00:47:06,239
hearing this and saying, Great, Tessa, you know,

1356
00:47:06,239 –> 00:47:06,739
fantastic.

1357
00:47:07,039 –> 00:47:09,360
Here’s my response to that. Guys, I think

1358
00:47:09,360 –> 00:47:11,440
we forget how big of an ask this

1359
00:47:11,440 –> 00:47:14,160
is. You know, to ask your partner who

1360
00:47:14,160 –> 00:47:16,800
you’ve cheated on usually multiple times in a

1361
00:47:16,800 –> 00:47:17,860
variety of ways

1362
00:47:18,465 –> 00:47:18,965
to

1363
00:47:19,345 –> 00:47:21,905
trust you again, forgive you, carry on, go

1364
00:47:21,905 –> 00:47:24,325
back to, you know, it’s a massive ask.

1365
00:47:24,385 –> 00:47:26,144
And so I think I have to remind

1366
00:47:26,144 –> 00:47:28,065
myself of that all the time. You’re asking

1367
00:47:28,065 –> 00:47:30,385
her to do something terrifying. And if you

1368
00:47:30,385 –> 00:47:32,900
gaslit her or relapsed and slipped and hit

1369
00:47:32,900 –> 00:47:34,900
it, like, guys, you you just strengthened her

1370
00:47:34,900 –> 00:47:37,140
case for why she shouldn’t get over this.

1371
00:47:37,140 –> 00:47:39,780
So have some understanding as to why this

1372
00:47:39,780 –> 00:47:41,460
is so hard for her to let go

1373
00:47:41,460 –> 00:47:43,780
because everything in her body is telling her

1374
00:47:43,780 –> 00:47:46,180
no. This is a dangerous individual who doesn’t

1375
00:47:46,180 –> 00:47:47,565
care about me, right? And so we got

1376
00:47:47,565 –> 00:47:49,804
we have to understand that her body is

1377
00:47:49,804 –> 00:47:50,304
often

1378
00:47:50,684 –> 00:47:52,844
telling her things that’s really hard for her

1379
00:47:52,844 –> 00:47:54,364
to silence. That’s one thing I’ve come to

1380
00:47:54,364 –> 00:47:56,925
realize. My wife does not agree with what

1381
00:47:56,925 –> 00:47:58,945
her brain and body is telling her sometimes.

1382
00:47:59,369 –> 00:48:01,130
Well, even though her actions will follow that,

1383
00:48:01,130 –> 00:48:02,889
I just need to understand that that’s just

1384
00:48:02,889 –> 00:48:04,089
the the side effects of what we’ve done.

1385
00:48:04,089 –> 00:48:05,849
That’s trauma. That’s trauma. That’s why we that’s

1386
00:48:05,849 –> 00:48:07,389
why we talk about this as a PTSD

1387
00:48:07,449 –> 00:48:07,949
responses.

1388
00:48:08,569 –> 00:48:11,049
That’s what this is. Alright. It’s not a

1389
00:48:11,049 –> 00:48:13,424
choice. It’s not a choice in any way.

1390
00:48:13,424 –> 00:48:15,824
And Oh, I know they wouldn’t like, you

1391
00:48:15,824 –> 00:48:17,424
know, my favorite line, not to go down

1392
00:48:17,424 –> 00:48:19,684
this rabbit hole. My favorite line always is,

1393
00:48:19,744 –> 00:48:21,764
she doesn’t wanna get over it. Guys,

1394
00:48:22,625 –> 00:48:24,704
she wants to get over this more than

1395
00:48:24,704 –> 00:48:27,460
you do. More than you do. She would

1396
00:48:27,460 –> 00:48:30,179
love to stop comparing herself to other women

1397
00:48:30,179 –> 00:48:32,659
and stop imagining you doing things to other

1398
00:48:32,659 –> 00:48:34,119
women. She would love

1399
00:48:34,819 –> 00:48:36,519
to forget, trust me.

1400
00:48:36,900 –> 00:48:38,500
So two more questions, Tessa, do you have

1401
00:48:38,500 –> 00:48:41,434
time? Yeah, go for it. So next one

1402
00:48:41,434 –> 00:48:41,934
is,

1403
00:48:42,394 –> 00:48:45,675
so recovery phase, right? What if we can’t

1404
00:48:45,675 –> 00:48:47,614
add in the restoration

1405
00:48:47,914 –> 00:48:48,414
work

1406
00:48:48,954 –> 00:48:51,675
because there’s still a perception of lack of

1407
00:48:51,675 –> 00:48:53,195
safety? So one of, I know a lot

1408
00:48:53,195 –> 00:48:55,050
of my guys are saying, Hey, you know,

1409
00:48:55,050 –> 00:48:56,510
I’ve been in Roland’s program.

1410
00:48:56,809 –> 00:48:59,530
I’m going beast mode on recovery. There’s nothing

1411
00:48:59,530 –> 00:49:01,769
more. I like everything the research says to

1412
00:49:01,769 –> 00:49:02,829
do, I’m doing.

1413
00:49:03,369 –> 00:49:05,449
Deeply connecting with guys. I’m going to three,

1414
00:49:05,449 –> 00:49:08,269
four intensives a year. And she’s still saying,

1415
00:49:08,994 –> 00:49:10,914
I don’t feel safe around you. I don’t

1416
00:49:10,914 –> 00:49:13,155
think you’re in good recovery. I still can’t

1417
00:49:13,155 –> 00:49:15,394
trust you. How do you respond to that?

1418
00:49:15,394 –> 00:49:16,594
And I think a lot of the women

1419
00:49:16,594 –> 00:49:18,675
are probably curious to answer this too, because

1420
00:49:18,675 –> 00:49:20,755
I think hearing them saying like, Oh, some

1421
00:49:20,755 –> 00:49:23,579
safety established, like how much safety? Because I

1422
00:49:23,579 –> 00:49:25,260
don’t think a lot of these ladies feel

1423
00:49:25,260 –> 00:49:27,019
very freaking safe. So in that case, what

1424
00:49:27,019 –> 00:49:28,539
are we gonna do? Stay in stay in

1425
00:49:28,539 –> 00:49:30,460
phase one for like five years? How do

1426
00:49:30,460 –> 00:49:31,039
you respond

1427
00:49:31,980 –> 00:49:34,380
to those comments of you’re not in great

1428
00:49:34,380 –> 00:49:34,880
recovery,

1429
00:49:35,260 –> 00:49:36,940
I don’t feel safe around you, I don’t

1430
00:49:36,940 –> 00:49:39,284
think you’ve changed that much. Is that phase

1431
00:49:39,284 –> 00:49:40,804
one issue? Like, what do we do with

1432
00:49:40,804 –> 00:49:42,885
that? Because I Tessa, I don’t think that

1433
00:49:42,885 –> 00:49:43,704
goes away

1434
00:49:44,244 –> 00:49:46,005
even for couples in phase two. I think

1435
00:49:46,005 –> 00:49:48,244
they’re still getting accused of that from time

1436
00:49:48,244 –> 00:49:49,844
to time. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems

1437
00:49:49,844 –> 00:49:53,125
like doubting their recovery work goes on for

1438
00:49:53,125 –> 00:49:53,784
some time.

1439
00:49:54,210 –> 00:49:57,170
Yeah. And understandably so, because then we go

1440
00:49:57,170 –> 00:49:59,730
back into the trauma. Right? And so the

1441
00:49:59,730 –> 00:50:01,429
brain is trying to keep you safe.

1442
00:50:01,969 –> 00:50:05,889
And it is searching for danger constantly because

1443
00:50:05,889 –> 00:50:08,469
you are in a trauma response after betrayal.

1444
00:50:09,105 –> 00:50:09,605
And

1445
00:50:09,905 –> 00:50:11,125
perception is reality.

1446
00:50:11,505 –> 00:50:13,125
So if what I’m perceiving

1447
00:50:13,425 –> 00:50:15,824
is I don’t feel safe, then that’s my

1448
00:50:15,824 –> 00:50:18,885
reality. I don’t feel safe. 100%. Mhmm. And

1449
00:50:19,184 –> 00:50:20,724
so it is understanding

1450
00:50:21,549 –> 00:50:24,349
if the husband is truly doing all of

1451
00:50:24,349 –> 00:50:26,049
the things. Right? And, like, let’s

1452
00:50:26,349 –> 00:50:28,269
take an inventory. Are we truly doing all

1453
00:50:28,269 –> 00:50:29,409
the things? Right?

1454
00:50:30,510 –> 00:50:32,210
And are we doing it to our best

1455
00:50:32,429 –> 00:50:32,929
ability?

1456
00:50:33,469 –> 00:50:33,969
And

1457
00:50:34,670 –> 00:50:36,210
if that is the case,

1458
00:50:36,750 –> 00:50:38,885
which I’m like, is that always the case?

1459
00:50:38,885 –> 00:50:40,644
I’m like, I always could find something that

1460
00:50:40,644 –> 00:50:42,344
we can work on a little bit.

1461
00:50:42,644 –> 00:50:44,344
Mhmm. Mhmm. Just keep that in mind

1462
00:50:44,885 –> 00:50:45,385
is

1463
00:50:45,764 –> 00:50:47,385
let’s honor their reality.

1464
00:50:47,844 –> 00:50:50,025
Yeah. I like that. You manipulated

1465
00:50:50,565 –> 00:50:51,304
their reality

1466
00:50:51,760 –> 00:50:54,239
for how long? Mhmm. And now you want

1467
00:50:54,239 –> 00:50:55,700
them to see your reality?

1468
00:50:56,400 –> 00:50:59,440
Mhmm. Like, it’s nearly impossible. The brain won’t

1469
00:50:59,440 –> 00:51:00,260
allow it.

1470
00:51:00,559 –> 00:51:01,059
So

1471
00:51:01,519 –> 00:51:02,019
honoring

1472
00:51:02,720 –> 00:51:06,239
that their perception even if wrong, like, no.

1473
00:51:06,239 –> 00:51:08,885
Like, I’m safe. I’m a safe person. And

1474
00:51:08,885 –> 00:51:10,664
they’re like, no, you’re not. Mhmm.

1475
00:51:11,364 –> 00:51:14,244
That’s okay. Be okay with that. Yeah. I

1476
00:51:14,244 –> 00:51:15,525
agree with you, Tessa. I think

1477
00:51:16,244 –> 00:51:18,164
no. I I agree with you. I’ve taken

1478
00:51:18,164 –> 00:51:19,925
that stance because the more and more I

1479
00:51:19,925 –> 00:51:21,545
think about it, I think to myself,

1480
00:51:21,890 –> 00:51:24,630
if my wife cheated on me 22 times

1481
00:51:25,170 –> 00:51:28,369
and I walked into a fundraising gala and

1482
00:51:28,369 –> 00:51:30,630
she was all dolled up looking great.

1483
00:51:31,090 –> 00:51:32,690
And I walk in, I’m running a little

1484
00:51:32,690 –> 00:51:35,269
bit late and she is laughing hysterically

1485
00:51:35,650 –> 00:51:36,224
at this

1486
00:51:36,864 –> 00:51:37,925
super attractive,

1487
00:51:38,385 –> 00:51:39,765
well dressed guy.

1488
00:51:40,305 –> 00:51:42,485
I bet you my mind’s gonna say,

1489
00:51:42,864 –> 00:51:45,025
Here I am five minutes late. She can’t

1490
00:51:45,025 –> 00:51:48,164
help herself. Like, and that’s not me thinking

1491
00:51:48,224 –> 00:51:50,090
that. That is everything that she has done

1492
00:51:50,090 –> 00:51:52,250
to me making me say, oh, there she

1493
00:51:52,250 –> 00:51:53,610
is. She’s at it again. I bet you

1494
00:51:53,610 –> 00:51:56,090
she’s feeling so validated with him. I bet

1495
00:51:56,090 –> 00:51:58,410
you know, so I’ve taken that stance as

1496
00:51:58,410 –> 00:52:00,329
I constantly put myself in her shoes and

1497
00:52:00,329 –> 00:52:02,329
I say, would you feel any different truly?

1498
00:52:02,329 –> 00:52:04,194
Like if that all was under you, is

1499
00:52:04,194 –> 00:52:06,194
that flirting? Kinda looks like flirting, right? Like

1500
00:52:06,194 –> 00:52:08,114
we can’t blame their brain. It’s not your

1501
00:52:08,114 –> 00:52:10,674
wife. It’s just she’s just crunching data, man.

1502
00:52:10,674 –> 00:52:12,355
And you gave her a lot of data

1503
00:52:12,355 –> 00:52:13,094
to suggest

1504
00:52:13,394 –> 00:52:15,394
that you’re not trustworthy. So I think we

1505
00:52:15,394 –> 00:52:16,375
need to be realistic.

1506
00:52:17,210 –> 00:52:19,049
And I agree with you. I test I’ve

1507
00:52:19,049 –> 00:52:20,889
taken that stance. I say I gave her

1508
00:52:20,889 –> 00:52:21,949
a ton of data

1509
00:52:22,250 –> 00:52:23,150
that would indicate

1510
00:52:23,529 –> 00:52:25,049
that I need to have eyes on me,

1511
00:52:25,049 –> 00:52:26,650
that I can’t be trusted. And so I

1512
00:52:26,650 –> 00:52:28,889
just I constantly am open to that idea

1513
00:52:28,889 –> 00:52:29,864
that if if I didn’t want her to

1514
00:52:29,864 –> 00:52:31,465
feel that way, I shouldn’t have given her

1515
00:52:31,465 –> 00:52:33,965
a mountain of data, a 14 page disclosure

1516
00:52:34,025 –> 00:52:34,525
saying,

1517
00:52:34,905 –> 00:52:37,144
I can’t be honest in a wide variety

1518
00:52:37,144 –> 00:52:39,385
of conditions under a lot of circumstances. And

1519
00:52:39,385 –> 00:52:42,425
so, yeah. Alright. Last question. Hardest one. You

1520
00:52:42,425 –> 00:52:44,510
ready for this? I wanna comment on that

1521
00:52:44,510 –> 00:52:46,670
one. Do you have time? I have time.

1522
00:52:46,670 –> 00:52:47,949
I have all the time in the world.

1523
00:52:47,949 –> 00:52:49,630
You’ve entered one of my I’m I’m like

1524
00:52:49,630 –> 00:52:51,869
a super fan of Tesla now. So, I

1525
00:52:51,869 –> 00:52:53,550
I made sure that I had nothing after

1526
00:52:53,550 –> 00:52:54,289
this call.

1527
00:52:54,829 –> 00:52:55,809
Okay. So

1528
00:52:56,625 –> 00:52:59,764
if it’s helpful for men is to take

1529
00:53:00,304 –> 00:53:00,804
the

1530
00:53:01,105 –> 00:53:03,045
trauma to a different trauma.

1531
00:53:03,425 –> 00:53:05,284
So if you have experienced

1532
00:53:06,065 –> 00:53:07,985
I’m gonna use one of my traumas for

1533
00:53:07,985 –> 00:53:08,644
an example.

1534
00:53:09,079 –> 00:53:09,579
Is

1535
00:53:10,039 –> 00:53:12,460
my little sister died in a car accident

1536
00:53:12,679 –> 00:53:14,199
when I was a sophomore in high school

1537
00:53:14,199 –> 00:53:16,440
and she was five years old and her

1538
00:53:16,440 –> 00:53:19,260
mom didn’t buckle her into her car seat

1539
00:53:19,559 –> 00:53:20,619
and she died.

1540
00:53:21,155 –> 00:53:23,714
And so even to this day, and I,

1541
00:53:23,714 –> 00:53:25,635
like, I wasn’t in the car, I wasn’t

1542
00:53:25,635 –> 00:53:27,414
there, but it was traumatizing.

1543
00:53:28,275 –> 00:53:30,114
My kids, so we go to this light

1544
00:53:30,114 –> 00:53:32,275
show in a neighborhood for Christmas and it

1545
00:53:32,275 –> 00:53:34,250
has all these Christmas lights. Well, the kids

1546
00:53:34,250 –> 00:53:36,269
wanna get out of their seat belts. Mhmm.

1547
00:53:36,329 –> 00:53:36,829
And

1548
00:53:37,130 –> 00:53:39,289
they want to, like we have a sunroof.

1549
00:53:39,289 –> 00:53:41,230
They wanna go up and look out there.

1550
00:53:41,609 –> 00:53:42,109
And

1551
00:53:42,409 –> 00:53:45,130
I still have a physical reaction of, like,

1552
00:53:45,130 –> 00:53:45,630
fear.

1553
00:53:46,105 –> 00:53:48,025
And it’s just like and I immediately think

1554
00:53:48,025 –> 00:53:49,965
of my sister, like, this could happen.

1555
00:53:50,344 –> 00:53:52,585
Mhmm. Even though we’re going two miles per

1556
00:53:52,585 –> 00:53:55,704
hour. Yeah. Two miles per hour, we’re all

1557
00:53:55,704 –> 00:53:57,545
on guard, kids are out of their seat

1558
00:53:57,545 –> 00:53:58,045
belts.

1559
00:53:58,425 –> 00:54:00,489
And it’s like, I don’t know if that

1560
00:54:00,489 –> 00:54:02,349
will ever go away. Yeah. Honestly.

1561
00:54:02,890 –> 00:54:05,050
And so if we think about what traumatizes

1562
00:54:05,130 –> 00:54:06,650
And why and why should it though? Right?

1563
00:54:06,650 –> 00:54:08,170
I mean, we’re talking about a human life.

1564
00:54:08,170 –> 00:54:09,450
Why should it go away? I mean, your

1565
00:54:09,450 –> 00:54:10,750
brain is doing its job.

1566
00:54:11,289 –> 00:54:13,914
Exactly. Your brain is like their brain is

1567
00:54:13,914 –> 00:54:15,934
functioning just the way that it should. Yeah,

1568
00:54:16,155 –> 00:54:18,655
you’re being cheated on like humiliated,

1569
00:54:19,355 –> 00:54:21,195
lied to having your choice taken because I

1570
00:54:21,195 –> 00:54:22,394
tell you this, if I would have told

1571
00:54:22,394 –> 00:54:24,315
my wife, hey, let’s get married. I’m gonna

1572
00:54:24,315 –> 00:54:26,155
cheat on you, I don’t know, 25 to

1573
00:54:26,155 –> 00:54:27,940
35 times. I don’t think we would have

1574
00:54:27,940 –> 00:54:30,420
gone on a second date. And that’s basically

1575
00:54:30,420 –> 00:54:32,260
what I did because in all reality, I’ve

1576
00:54:32,260 –> 00:54:34,119
had this problem for a long time and

1577
00:54:34,180 –> 00:54:36,099
come on. I knew it was unlikely to

1578
00:54:36,099 –> 00:54:38,920
go away. So her brain was and is

1579
00:54:39,554 –> 00:54:42,054
doing what it probably should do. I mean,

1580
00:54:42,275 –> 00:54:44,195
I am this is the first time I’ve

1581
00:54:44,195 –> 00:54:46,454
been a man of integrity in my life,

1582
00:54:46,514 –> 00:54:48,594
Tessa. This is the first time. So I

1583
00:54:48,594 –> 00:54:50,434
mean, her brain’s like, alright, there’s a training

1584
00:54:50,434 –> 00:54:51,414
wheels guy. Let’s

1585
00:54:52,809 –> 00:54:54,650
let’s let’s keep an eye on this sucker.

1586
00:54:54,650 –> 00:54:56,409
He’s talking a big talk, but we’ll see.

1587
00:54:56,409 –> 00:54:58,089
But I am very proud of myself. The

1588
00:54:58,089 –> 00:55:00,730
decisions I’m making, I’m actually impressed with myself.

1589
00:55:00,730 –> 00:55:02,730
I had some doubts in recovery. I did.

1590
00:55:02,730 –> 00:55:04,190
I mean, I I had doubts,

1591
00:55:04,569 –> 00:55:06,554
and I’m so proud of of where I’ve

1592
00:55:06,635 –> 00:55:08,315
gotten to. And I’m hope that one day

1593
00:55:08,315 –> 00:55:09,135
her brain

1594
00:55:09,514 –> 00:55:10,795
can feel that. And I think it will.

1595
00:55:10,795 –> 00:55:12,474
It’s just gonna take some time. I gotta

1596
00:55:12,474 –> 00:55:13,835
get the data. I gotta build the data

1597
00:55:13,835 –> 00:55:15,375
that says the contrary. Right?

1598
00:55:15,835 –> 00:55:16,574
Yes. Exactly.

1599
00:55:17,034 –> 00:55:19,034
And I also think if husbands can see

1600
00:55:19,034 –> 00:55:21,375
that as a blessing for their recovery

1601
00:55:21,890 –> 00:55:23,329
is, ma’am, my wife is gonna hold me

1602
00:55:23,329 –> 00:55:25,890
accountable. Yeah. Like, you know, like, she’s like

1603
00:55:25,969 –> 00:55:27,570
I’ll tell you right now, Tessa. I don’t

1604
00:55:27,570 –> 00:55:29,890
think if I got caught, I would have

1605
00:55:29,890 –> 00:55:32,050
ever stopped. And I hate that. I hate

1606
00:55:32,050 –> 00:55:34,130
that because it’s so disgusting, everything that I

1607
00:55:34,130 –> 00:55:35,190
did. But I just

1608
00:55:35,570 –> 00:55:36,789
this had to happen.

1609
00:55:37,114 –> 00:55:39,114
There’s no other way I was gonna stop

1610
00:55:39,114 –> 00:55:41,594
hurting people. Even if she didn’t catch me,

1611
00:55:41,594 –> 00:55:44,155
I’m I’m hurting people. I’m hurting people by

1612
00:55:44,155 –> 00:55:47,214
even even virtual content. I am hurting myself,

1613
00:55:47,755 –> 00:55:48,255
women

1614
00:55:48,795 –> 00:55:51,194
and our society by consuming that content. It

1615
00:55:51,194 –> 00:55:53,969
is harmful to our existence here. And I’m

1616
00:55:53,969 –> 00:55:55,969
glad I stopped because I hate being a

1617
00:55:55,969 –> 00:55:57,969
menace, and I was a menace. I was

1618
00:55:57,969 –> 00:55:59,730
not making this place better. I was tearing

1619
00:55:59,730 –> 00:56:01,730
it down. And so, I am very thankful

1620
00:56:01,730 –> 00:56:03,650
for that. And I think my wife’s coming

1621
00:56:03,650 –> 00:56:05,429
around to being a touch thankful.

1622
00:56:06,155 –> 00:56:08,234
It’s a lot harder for the birthday partners

1623
00:56:08,234 –> 00:56:10,335
to say, I’m grateful this happened because

1624
00:56:10,715 –> 00:56:12,474
I’m not sure that’s I’m not sure that’s

1625
00:56:12,474 –> 00:56:15,614
entirely the truth. Alright. Last question. Hard question.

1626
00:56:16,074 –> 00:56:18,074
Forgiveness. You mentioned it so I wrote it

1627
00:56:18,074 –> 00:56:19,375
down. I’ve got to ask.

1628
00:56:20,309 –> 00:56:21,530
Do you think

1629
00:56:22,070 –> 00:56:23,989
I have my stance on this, but I’m

1630
00:56:23,989 –> 00:56:24,489
curious.

1631
00:56:24,950 –> 00:56:25,450
Do

1632
00:56:25,829 –> 00:56:27,050
you think forgiveness

1633
00:56:27,349 –> 00:56:28,250
is necessary

1634
00:56:29,190 –> 00:56:31,430
for the partnership to flourish? Do you think

1635
00:56:31,430 –> 00:56:32,650
they have to forgive?

1636
00:56:34,585 –> 00:56:35,864
I have my stance but I want you

1637
00:56:35,864 –> 00:56:36,684
to go first.

1638
00:56:37,065 –> 00:56:40,425
So I think we all define forgiveness differently.

1639
00:56:40,425 –> 00:56:42,265
Correct. Which makes this a hard question to

1640
00:56:42,265 –> 00:56:43,704
answer, right? Yeah. It’s a different I think

1641
00:56:43,704 –> 00:56:46,265
some people think it’s let it’s like bygones

1642
00:56:46,265 –> 00:56:48,105
are bygones. It’s a thing of the I

1643
00:56:48,105 –> 00:56:50,130
don’t think about it. I’m I’m completely over

1644
00:56:50,130 –> 00:56:52,710
it. I have a different definition of forgiveness.

1645
00:56:52,769 –> 00:56:54,449
I don’t think that’s what it is. But

1646
00:56:54,449 –> 00:56:56,210
I guess, what’s your definition and do you

1647
00:56:56,210 –> 00:56:57,030
think it’s necessary?

1648
00:56:57,889 –> 00:56:59,109
So I think forgiveness

1649
00:56:59,489 –> 00:57:01,510
is a two part process.

1650
00:57:02,049 –> 00:57:04,369
I think number one is the decision to

1651
00:57:04,369 –> 00:57:04,869
forgive.

1652
00:57:05,304 –> 00:57:07,804
Is I’m going to choose to forgive this

1653
00:57:08,184 –> 00:57:11,405
and then two is the process of forgiveness.

1654
00:57:12,025 –> 00:57:13,085
And I think sometimes

1655
00:57:13,545 –> 00:57:14,925
that’s a daily decision.

1656
00:57:15,385 –> 00:57:16,985
Like, you know, I’m a wake up I

1657
00:57:16,985 –> 00:57:18,824
love that. Everybody listen to that. Did you

1658
00:57:18,824 –> 00:57:19,965
hear what you just said?

1659
00:57:20,489 –> 00:57:20,989
Forgiveness

1660
00:57:21,289 –> 00:57:24,090
is a daily decision. I’ve heard that before

1661
00:57:24,090 –> 00:57:25,690
so I can’t say that you invented it

1662
00:57:25,690 –> 00:57:27,610
because I’ve heard somebody say that before. But

1663
00:57:27,610 –> 00:57:29,769
I really love that. Everybody listen to that

1664
00:57:29,769 –> 00:57:31,769
because I think as what you’re asking, what

1665
00:57:31,769 –> 00:57:33,929
you want for the guys listening to this,

1666
00:57:33,929 –> 00:57:35,469
I know you guys want forgiveness,

1667
00:57:35,945 –> 00:57:37,405
but listen to that definition.

1668
00:57:37,864 –> 00:57:40,284
It’s a daily decision. So is it okay

1669
00:57:40,585 –> 00:57:42,344
to have her not forgive you one day

1670
00:57:42,344 –> 00:57:45,625
because she’s really triggered and activated and having

1671
00:57:45,625 –> 00:57:47,065
a lot of thoughts that she is not

1672
00:57:47,065 –> 00:57:48,425
wanting to have? Oh, I love that. Anyways,

1673
00:57:48,425 –> 00:57:49,625
sorry to cut you off, but I love

1674
00:57:49,625 –> 00:57:52,190
that answer so much. That’s so good. Yeah.

1675
00:57:52,409 –> 00:57:53,630
And so I think

1676
00:57:54,010 –> 00:57:56,170
everyone is different on where they’re at in

1677
00:57:56,170 –> 00:57:57,630
their forgiveness process.

1678
00:57:58,250 –> 00:57:59,710
I think the fact

1679
00:58:00,089 –> 00:58:02,010
that she hasn’t kicked you out and you’re

1680
00:58:02,010 –> 00:58:03,849
not divorced and maybe she has kicked you

1681
00:58:03,849 –> 00:58:05,769
out. Maybe there is a separation, so sorry

1682
00:58:05,769 –> 00:58:08,025
for that. But may you guys aren’t divorced

1683
00:58:08,025 –> 00:58:10,264
yet. And the fact that she is even

1684
00:58:10,264 –> 00:58:10,764
working

1685
00:58:11,224 –> 00:58:12,445
in therapy

1686
00:58:12,824 –> 00:58:15,864
at all is saying she’s choosing to forgive

1687
00:58:15,864 –> 00:58:19,079
you. Mhmm. That’s the choice. That’s part one.

1688
00:58:19,480 –> 00:58:22,039
Part two is the process, which is gonna

1689
00:58:22,039 –> 00:58:23,180
be a forever process.

1690
00:58:24,200 –> 00:58:25,719
I love it. That is a saying that

1691
00:58:25,719 –> 00:58:27,320
we have in our groups. We have this

1692
00:58:27,320 –> 00:58:29,079
exercise that we do. We don’t do shares

1693
00:58:29,079 –> 00:58:29,900
on our meetings.

1694
00:58:30,200 –> 00:58:32,119
I think there’s more productive ways to interact

1695
00:58:32,119 –> 00:58:33,714
together as a group. But one of the

1696
00:58:33,714 –> 00:58:35,795
things that the guys will often say back

1697
00:58:35,795 –> 00:58:36,295
is,

1698
00:58:36,675 –> 00:58:38,855
looks to me like she forgave you because

1699
00:58:38,994 –> 00:58:41,875
you, you know, cheating on somebody 20 plus

1700
00:58:41,875 –> 00:58:42,375
times

1701
00:58:43,315 –> 00:58:44,054
in very

1702
00:58:44,594 –> 00:58:47,099
inhumane ways and to have them not throw

1703
00:58:47,099 –> 00:58:49,099
you out of the house and be open

1704
00:58:49,099 –> 00:58:50,159
to hearing your disclosure,

1705
00:58:50,699 –> 00:58:52,859
writing you an impact letter, hearing your letter

1706
00:58:52,859 –> 00:58:55,179
of restitution. Like, I don’t know guys. I

1707
00:58:55,179 –> 00:58:57,279
don’t think there’s a lot of couples that

1708
00:58:57,339 –> 00:59:00,400
even make it to that first therapy appointment.

1709
00:59:00,775 –> 00:59:02,394
I would say most don’t.

1710
00:59:02,775 –> 00:59:04,375
So I know you’re like, you’re like, Oh,

1711
00:59:04,375 –> 00:59:05,894
you know, why can’t we get over? Like,

1712
00:59:05,894 –> 00:59:08,454
like guys, you’re already probably in a very

1713
00:59:08,454 –> 00:59:11,094
small select group of her even being open

1714
00:59:11,094 –> 00:59:13,255
to the idea of moving forward. Yeah. Tessa,

1715
00:59:13,255 –> 00:59:14,554
my definition of forgiveness

1716
00:59:15,030 –> 00:59:15,769
to me,

1717
00:59:16,070 –> 00:59:18,150
forgiveness, I don’t know how I define it,

1718
00:59:18,150 –> 00:59:19,989
but here’s what I always say, I don’t

1719
00:59:19,989 –> 00:59:21,910
think they need to. I’m not looking for

1720
00:59:21,910 –> 00:59:24,469
my wife to forgive. Personally, what I did

1721
00:59:24,469 –> 00:59:25,289
is unforgivable

1722
00:59:25,750 –> 00:59:26,949
is the way I look at it. And

1723
00:59:26,949 –> 00:59:28,809
so I don’t really need her to forgive.

1724
00:59:29,030 –> 00:59:30,090
It’s more so,

1725
00:59:30,864 –> 00:59:32,724
can we have a marriage,

1726
00:59:33,025 –> 00:59:34,325
the marriage we want

1727
00:59:34,704 –> 00:59:36,625
with this being a part of our story?

1728
00:59:36,625 –> 00:59:38,065
That’s really how I look at it. I

1729
00:59:38,065 –> 00:59:39,905
don’t need her to forgive me. Yeah, I

1730
00:59:39,905 –> 00:59:41,985
don’t need forgiveness. I’m not okay with what

1731
00:59:41,985 –> 00:59:42,565
I did.

1732
00:59:43,010 –> 00:59:46,069
I forgive myself tastefully, but not really because

1733
00:59:46,210 –> 00:59:47,730
I’m just sad that it happened. I’m sad

1734
00:59:47,730 –> 00:59:49,409
that I ever did it. Yeah. I don’t

1735
00:59:49,409 –> 00:59:51,089
need to be forgiven. I know why it

1736
00:59:51,089 –> 00:59:52,609
happened. I’m doing the things to keep it

1737
00:59:52,609 –> 00:59:54,210
from happening again and I don’t need her

1738
00:59:54,210 –> 00:59:55,809
to forgive me. It’s just not, it’s just

1739
00:59:55,809 –> 00:59:57,329
not something I’m looking for. I just wanna

1740
00:59:57,329 –> 00:59:59,025
make sure she feels safe with me. I

1741
00:59:59,025 –> 01:00:00,565
wanna make sure that this is the marriage

1742
01:00:00,625 –> 01:00:02,625
that she wants to be in and that

1743
01:00:02,625 –> 01:00:03,984
I’m acting like the husband that she wants

1744
01:00:03,984 –> 01:00:05,184
me to be. And that’s all. I I

1745
01:00:05,184 –> 01:00:06,385
don’t need her to forgive me and I

1746
01:00:06,385 –> 01:00:07,744
don’t need even I don’t even need blind

1747
01:00:07,744 –> 01:00:09,025
trust. I don’t I don’t need either of

1748
01:00:09,025 –> 01:00:10,864
those things. I’m okay with having a flourishing

1749
01:00:10,864 –> 01:00:12,625
marriage without those two and I think we

1750
01:00:12,625 –> 01:00:13,444
can do it.

1751
01:00:13,829 –> 01:00:17,289
Yeah. Yeah. Can a marriage go without forgiveness?

1752
01:00:17,989 –> 01:00:18,969
I think forgiveness

1753
01:00:19,349 –> 01:00:21,190
is not for the other person. I think

1754
01:00:21,190 –> 01:00:22,650
it’s for ourselves.

1755
01:00:23,030 –> 01:00:25,369
And so if I have lack of forgiveness

1756
01:00:25,510 –> 01:00:26,170
for someone,

1757
01:00:26,875 –> 01:00:29,355
I most likely have bitterness, or it will

1758
01:00:29,355 –> 01:00:32,394
be bitterness eventually or resentment or anger. There’s

1759
01:00:32,394 –> 01:00:33,215
something there

1760
01:00:33,515 –> 01:00:35,135
if I’m not forgiving. And so

1761
01:00:35,434 –> 01:00:37,855
I don’t believe that forgiveness is for

1762
01:00:38,155 –> 01:00:40,894
you. I think it it’s for her heart

1763
01:00:41,035 –> 01:00:42,094
so she’s not

1764
01:00:42,929 –> 01:00:43,429
chained

1765
01:00:44,130 –> 01:00:47,570
towards this pain Mhmm. And is allowing herself

1766
01:00:47,570 –> 01:00:49,809
to be free from that. Yes. I love

1767
01:00:49,809 –> 01:00:51,730
it. I I agree. Same thing. It’s not,

1768
01:00:51,730 –> 01:00:53,570
let’s move on and pretend this never happened.

1769
01:00:53,570 –> 01:00:55,089
I’m never gonna get triggered it again. I’m

1770
01:00:55,089 –> 01:00:56,644
never gonna bring it up again. Because if,

1771
01:00:56,644 –> 01:00:58,484
guys, if you think that’s where she’s gonna

1772
01:00:58,484 –> 01:01:00,244
get, I don’t know. I would I would

1773
01:01:00,244 –> 01:01:02,005
keep my I would keep my hopes up

1774
01:01:02,005 –> 01:01:04,405
on that one. Tessa, this was so awesome.

1775
01:01:04,405 –> 01:01:06,644
I already know. I’m adding you. I’m gonna

1776
01:01:06,644 –> 01:01:08,405
write note. I’m already adding you to the

1777
01:01:08,405 –> 01:01:10,244
rotation, assuming that you wanna be a part

1778
01:01:10,244 –> 01:01:12,239
of the rotation. I cannot imagine that in

1779
01:01:12,239 –> 01:01:13,760
six months, I’m not gonna have you back

1780
01:01:13,760 –> 01:01:14,660
for another

1781
01:01:15,280 –> 01:01:16,340
I really admire

1782
01:01:17,199 –> 01:01:17,780
the thought

1783
01:01:18,320 –> 01:01:20,320
that you put into this. You’ve really taken

1784
01:01:20,320 –> 01:01:22,160
the information and made it your own, and

1785
01:01:22,160 –> 01:01:23,699
I that is our responsibility,

1786
01:01:24,000 –> 01:01:26,079
I believe, as practitioners is that’s why we

1787
01:01:26,079 –> 01:01:28,054
call it practice. They don’t call it a

1788
01:01:28,054 –> 01:01:29,974
therapy shop or a they’re you know, it’s

1789
01:01:29,974 –> 01:01:31,974
it’s a practice because it’s a it’s an

1790
01:01:31,974 –> 01:01:33,974
ever evolving, what am I seeing? What does

1791
01:01:33,974 –> 01:01:35,974
the research say? And how can I get

1792
01:01:35,974 –> 01:01:37,255
better at each and every day? And I

1793
01:01:37,255 –> 01:01:38,875
just so believe

1794
01:01:39,400 –> 01:01:40,840
that you’re doing that, and I can’t imagine

1795
01:01:40,840 –> 01:01:42,599
that every single client you’ve ever worked with

1796
01:01:42,599 –> 01:01:44,280
doesn’t feel the same way. Your heart’s in

1797
01:01:44,280 –> 01:01:45,400
this, and I just love that so much.

1798
01:01:45,400 –> 01:01:46,780
So thank you for your time today.

1799
01:01:47,079 –> 01:01:48,139
Thank you so much.

1800
01:01:49,559 –> 01:01:51,734
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1801
01:01:51,734 –> 01:01:53,494
are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1802
01:01:53,494 –> 01:01:55,255
and you’re looking for a recovery group full

1803
01:01:55,255 –> 01:01:58,375
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1804
01:01:58,375 –> 01:02:01,174
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

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using four day retreats,

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01:02:02,775 –> 01:02:06,000
weekly group calls, calls, and daily accountability

1807
01:02:06,460 –> 01:02:07,473
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1808
01:02:07,473 –> 01:02:09,339
sobriety and save your marriage, go to our

1809
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website and fill out our application.

1810
01:02:11,019 –> 01:02:12,480
If you enjoyed this episode,

1811
01:02:12,780 –> 01:02:14,380
please pass it along to a friend in

1812
01:02:14,380 –> 01:02:16,380
recovery who would benefit from listening. It is

1813
01:02:16,380 –> 01:02:18,235
my mission to get this information out to

1814
01:02:18,235 –> 01:02:20,635
as many high achievers as possible, and I

1815
01:02:20,635 –> 01:02:22,095
can’t do it without your help.