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In this podcast episode, I interview Jeanne Vittone

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and Tim Stein. Now many of you have

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probably heard their names before. They are very

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influential in the sex addiction field and they

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just wrote a new book. So I decided

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to bring them on the show. The book

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is titled Finding the Way Through and is

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a sex addiction workbook.

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But it's kinda unique because what they did

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was try to create all the different elements

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of sobriety recovery, but also the betrayed partners

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experience.

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Because as we know, navigating your own recovery,

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especially within this, it's a very unique addiction

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in the sense that, yes, you have your

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own recovery work to do, but here on

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the other side, you have this relationship that

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is just struggling in one of the worst

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ways there is. Right? So how do you

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navigate both of these things? And this workbook

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is an attempt to help you do that.

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And Jeannie and Tim have a ton of

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experience working with both addicts and betrayed partners.

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And so this book is really one of

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a kind in the sense that it's trying

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to integrate all of the information into one

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place. Excited to share this episode with you.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles

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specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

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I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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more information about joining our group or attending

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our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Welcome to the podcast, everyone. This is exciting.

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I have two guests. Oh my gosh. This

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is gonna be hard for me to to

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to manage. I I can barely manage one

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guest half the time. So let's start off

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first with the,

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new book. So,

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talk to us about what it is and

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why it was written. Mhmm. Well, this is

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a story, I would say, of Tim and

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I.

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And and to be clear, we have worked

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together

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for fifteen, sixteen years now.

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Mhmm. And,

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I'll I'll say my parts, and then Tim

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Tim Tim will come in.

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That Tim and I were working with Partners

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and Addicts,

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and Tim was running groups

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and using materials

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back back back in the days. And,

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he was tinkering with it, and then the

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two of us were tinkering with it. And,

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you know, we have our weekly group multiple,

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four groups per week for betrayed.

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Sorry, for addicts, and then two for betrayed.

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And so we are tinkering with the material,

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tinkering with it. And over time, he just

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kinda said, why don't we write our own

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book?

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You know, instead of trying to grab a

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little here, grab a little there, sending them

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here, sending them there,

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These books aren't hitting the mark for us.

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Mhmm.

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So thus thus began

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quite this beautiful process of the two of

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us putting our heads together, and we really

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create very well together

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historically.

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What would you add there, Tim?

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Yeah. This this book I mean, we we

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talk about it in the introduction that there

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have been, like, 13 or 14 different editions

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of our group manual, which is what this

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evolved out of.

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And it evolved because we just found,

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you know, hey. We're we're working with this

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topic in this way, and here's this wrinkle

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that we find that works a lot better.

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How do we help the the guys that

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we're working with to see themselves in this

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process? How do we help them to

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peel

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a layer back so that they can see

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more clearly

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what's underneath that and and put those pieces

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together? And so it just kept evolving and

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evolving.

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The other piece that that we have a

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lot of passion about is the partner sensitivity

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piece. Mhmm. Is that

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when people come into our our agency and

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and we founded Willow Tree Counseling,

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2014,

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I think.

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I know. It was 2014.

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We incorporated.

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So, I mean, that's when we incorporated there.

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We've been working together for years before that.

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But,

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one of the things that we've always felt

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really proud about is in WillowTree Counseling is

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that our the couples that come in,

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by and large, stay together, not all of

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them.

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But

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the the rates that we seem to have

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of couples successfully staying together

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in recovery were higher than what we were

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hearing from our peers. And I think a

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lot of that was because Genie,

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very early on, was an adopter of betrayal

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trauma and what was going on with betrayal

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trauma. And we just naturally started leaning into

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it's helpful if the addict understands

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what's going on with the partner and their

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trauma and their healing and why it's showing

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up in this way.

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And, you know, when we work with couples,

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we do the opposite, helping the the the

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partner to understand the addict process. Mhmm. But

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this book

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has been has included the evolution of how

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do we bring

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knowledge, information,

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education, guidance

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about

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the partner experience

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and betrayal trauma and how it's showing up

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and how you can

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support your partner

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in their healing. You can't do it for

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them.

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And, you know,

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when you get to the point where there's

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more of an equal balance in that relationship

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because you've worked your recovery, they've done their

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healing,

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how do you step in in a different

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way to recreate your relationship?

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And so this workbook,

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I I'm really feel really proud of it

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partly because it helps I think it helps

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people to see themselves in this process and

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to better understand themselves.

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But it also

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really leans heavily into understanding what's going on

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on the other side of the fence Yeah.

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With your partner and what their experience is

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so that you can not only find recovery

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and healing for yourself, but you can also

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find it with your relationship while you're supporting

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your partner. And was that the wrinkle? You

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guys mentioned, like, there was a wrinkle. What's

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the wrinkle? Is it the integration? What what

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what is it that you guys solve with

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this?

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It's it's the fact that this is and

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and to me, this is, like, a bit

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astounding in 2025.

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This is the first workbook

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that is for the person struggling with the

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compulsive sexual behavior

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that includes the betrayed partner. Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

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You know? And so we would constantly

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well, how are we gonna weave the betrayal

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sensitivity in here?

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Okay. So this person is struggling with this,

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and the narrative they're creating about the betrayed

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is inaccurate.

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Mhmm. And it's only inaccurate because they don't

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know. They haven't been educated

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on betrayal trauma.

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So for folks to stay in their lane,

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you know, that never worked for us. Mhmm.

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Because when you're in a marriage or a

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committed relationship,

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you know, staying on your side of the

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street is just way too far apart.

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So how do we bring these people together

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where they're each doing their own work?

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Addiction recovery is so different than trauma healing.

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Mhmm. But yet in a way that they

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understood each other's process

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and understood some of the optical obstacles or

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understood

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some of the things that would help.

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So,

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you know, it came to the point where

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we're saying certain things over and over with

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our people, and it's really resonating and helping

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them.

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But there was no book to point them

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to.

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Mhmm. So

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in our book, one of the differences is

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every chapter so the chapters are arranged. There's

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an education.

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There's an application section.

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There's a partner sensitivity

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topic,

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and there's case vignettes,

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then there's recovery traits.

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So every chapter is organized on that. No

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matter if we're talking about the healthy sex

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in recovery chapter

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or the anger chapter or the empathy chapter

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or what is recovery

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chapter or how do you stay sober. So

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all these different chapters.

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But we weave in the betrayed partner's voice

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and experience into the education

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and application.

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And then the partner sensitivity section is all

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about

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this might be going on with your betrayed

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partner

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regarding trust or transparency

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or check ins or sex or communication.

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Like so it really brings voice

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in a way that

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wasn't out there before.

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So it's designed for so the people purchasing

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this, is it designed for both partners? Is

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that what I'm hearing? Or is it targeted

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towards the addicts so that they can understand

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the other part? What's talk to talk to

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us about the audience.

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The the the book is targeted for the

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addict.

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And it's it's an addict workbook that walks

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you through, you know, how do I understand

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my denial? How do I sort of get

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sobriety? What are the red flags I need

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to pay attention to? What's an effective program

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look like? How do I tune that up?

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How do I,

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step into the recovery

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process, which is, you know,

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sobriety is about what we don't do.

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Recovery is about what we do. So we

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talk about how do you not do these

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behaviors that are problematic.

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And then we the second half of the

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book is how do you start doing your

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life differently. So the book is very much

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targeted

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for the addict with understanding

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their own process, their own journey, and then

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understanding what their partner's going through. I will

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say that a lot of our partners have

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wanted copies of this book. Mhmm. Not because,

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they're gonna work through it, but because,

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one,

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they

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really find it very helpful to to to

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read about

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what does what's the addict learning and working

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about? What's the addict's addiction about? How are

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how is their journey playing out? And then

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they love

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to see what we're saying about their experience

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because it resonates with them and makes sense

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to them.

275
00:09:44,955 --> 00:09:47,195
And then they have a a different sense

276
00:09:47,195 --> 00:09:49,215
of comfort that, oh,

277
00:09:50,235 --> 00:09:51,294
my addict partner

278
00:09:52,154 --> 00:09:55,115
is is getting this information. They may not

279
00:09:55,115 --> 00:09:56,990
be applying it quite as effectively

280
00:09:57,690 --> 00:09:58,190
as

281
00:09:58,809 --> 00:10:01,049
the partner would like, but there's a reassurance

282
00:10:01,049 --> 00:10:02,669
of, oh, they're getting it.

283
00:10:04,169 --> 00:10:06,330
I think we have we have in mind

284
00:10:06,330 --> 00:10:08,330
writing another book that will be the basically

285
00:10:08,330 --> 00:10:10,809
the same content but sort of framed for

286
00:10:10,809 --> 00:10:11,870
a for a partner.

287
00:10:12,225 --> 00:10:14,544
But, the book is designed for the addict

288
00:10:14,544 --> 00:10:15,825
to work through, but,

289
00:10:16,384 --> 00:10:19,504
partners have really appreciated the in information that

290
00:10:19,504 --> 00:10:21,184
we put in there, which is Oh, I

291
00:10:21,184 --> 00:10:22,625
I I a 100 I agree with that.

292
00:10:22,625 --> 00:10:25,024
I have I have my book. I sent

293
00:10:25,024 --> 00:10:26,629
it out right when it was done. I

294
00:10:26,629 --> 00:10:28,230
sent it out to all my clients just,

295
00:10:28,629 --> 00:10:30,389
as a just right when I got the

296
00:10:30,389 --> 00:10:31,929
published copies. And

297
00:10:32,309 --> 00:10:34,870
all the wives intercepted it and read it

298
00:10:34,870 --> 00:10:37,590
first, and they all I the emails I

299
00:10:37,590 --> 00:10:39,370
got from them was the same thing was,

300
00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:41,850
oh my gosh. This is such a,

301
00:10:43,084 --> 00:10:44,684
you know, it's it's it's not a how

302
00:10:44,684 --> 00:10:46,444
to book as mine as much as mine

303
00:10:46,444 --> 00:10:48,044
is. I just don't feel like people are

304
00:10:48,044 --> 00:10:49,424
appreciating the size

305
00:10:49,804 --> 00:10:51,804
of this issue, and so I felt called

306
00:10:51,804 --> 00:10:53,745
to write a book because it was like,

307
00:10:53,804 --> 00:10:56,350
guys, this is a is a far bigger

308
00:10:56,350 --> 00:10:58,429
issue than I think everyone's getting anything credit.

309
00:10:58,429 --> 00:11:00,750
We have societal factors, religious elements. I mean,

310
00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:03,409
there's there's a lot of things feeding into

311
00:11:03,949 --> 00:11:06,589
why this is a lot more difficult to

312
00:11:06,589 --> 00:11:07,730
just drop than,

313
00:11:08,750 --> 00:11:10,404
glass of alcohol or,

314
00:11:10,904 --> 00:11:13,024
you know, the heroin needle or something. I

315
00:11:13,024 --> 00:11:14,784
mean, it's there's a lot going on here

316
00:11:14,784 --> 00:11:16,725
that makes it a little bit diff difficult

317
00:11:16,784 --> 00:11:18,625
to to ditch. So I I totally resonate

318
00:11:18,625 --> 00:11:20,544
with that. I had a follow-up question to

319
00:11:20,544 --> 00:11:21,764
that though. Is,

320
00:11:22,544 --> 00:11:24,084
is it designed to work

321
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,039
kind of with along with a therapist, along

322
00:11:27,039 --> 00:11:28,639
with a group? Was it when you when

323
00:11:28,639 --> 00:11:30,480
it was written, was it like, okay. Well,

324
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,000
let's write it as a stand alone just

325
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,759
in case they don't have the resources for

326
00:11:33,759 --> 00:11:36,820
additional help. What was the kind of ideology

327
00:11:36,959 --> 00:11:40,054
behind somebody buying this thing and just going

328
00:11:40,054 --> 00:11:41,415
through it front to back? I mean, is

329
00:11:41,415 --> 00:11:43,254
it is it designed to give them a

330
00:11:43,254 --> 00:11:45,415
comprehensive understanding of everything that they're gonna need

331
00:11:45,415 --> 00:11:45,995
to do?

332
00:11:47,095 --> 00:11:49,195
Yeah. It's it's designed to do both.

333
00:11:50,339 --> 00:11:52,600
So, again, we started it,

334
00:11:53,059 --> 00:11:55,000
and using it as our group curriculum.

335
00:11:55,379 --> 00:11:57,620
Mhmm. And so that's another piece is that

336
00:11:57,620 --> 00:11:59,079
at the end of every chapter,

337
00:11:59,539 --> 00:12:01,959
it's really a collection reflection site.

338
00:12:02,595 --> 00:12:04,355
What have you learned? What questions do you

339
00:12:04,355 --> 00:12:07,315
have? And we're always encouraging the reader. And

340
00:12:07,315 --> 00:12:08,934
who are you sharing this with?

341
00:12:09,634 --> 00:12:11,815
Whether that be your loved one, your sponsor,

342
00:12:11,875 --> 00:12:14,274
your recovery peers, your whomever's, who are you

343
00:12:14,274 --> 00:12:16,934
sharing it with? So from a group curriculum

344
00:12:17,075 --> 00:12:17,575
perspective,

345
00:12:18,330 --> 00:12:20,570
that's the part they bring into group to

346
00:12:20,570 --> 00:12:21,309
share about.

347
00:12:21,850 --> 00:12:22,590
But yet,

348
00:12:23,050 --> 00:12:25,290
anybody could get the book and be thinking,

349
00:12:25,290 --> 00:12:27,050
how can I share it with my recovery

350
00:12:27,050 --> 00:12:29,050
person? I I meet with them every Tuesday

351
00:12:29,050 --> 00:12:30,029
morning for coffee.

352
00:12:30,524 --> 00:12:32,125
So how can I share it with them

353
00:12:32,125 --> 00:12:33,904
or a therapist or a coach?

354
00:12:34,284 --> 00:12:36,044
So it's meant to do both in that

355
00:12:36,044 --> 00:12:37,184
comprehensive way.

356
00:12:38,764 --> 00:12:40,924
I wanna go back to one part before

357
00:12:40,924 --> 00:12:42,784
we got to that good question, Roland.

358
00:12:45,259 --> 00:12:46,800
It is an it is a workbook

359
00:12:47,340 --> 00:12:48,940
focused on the person who's struggling with the

360
00:12:48,940 --> 00:12:49,440
addiction

361
00:12:49,820 --> 00:12:52,220
and helping them learn and hear the partner's

362
00:12:52,220 --> 00:12:52,720
voice.

363
00:12:53,340 --> 00:12:56,000
What I have some couples also doing is

364
00:12:56,220 --> 00:12:59,660
they're using the partner sensitivity topic and and

365
00:12:59,660 --> 00:13:00,160
article

366
00:13:00,914 --> 00:13:03,554
as a way to talk communicate about a

367
00:13:03,554 --> 00:13:04,054
situation.

368
00:13:04,835 --> 00:13:07,095
So they're using it as relational repair.

369
00:13:07,715 --> 00:13:09,794
Mhmm. So they both read that part, and

370
00:13:09,794 --> 00:13:11,394
then they come down once a week in

371
00:13:11,394 --> 00:13:13,174
their weekly check-in and say,

372
00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,679
what I got out of this was was

373
00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,480
that like your experience? Or this was my

374
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,040
experience. Can you hear that? They're using it

375
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,200
as a conversation piece Yeah. I like that.

376
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:24,820
With relational healing.

377
00:13:25,279 --> 00:13:27,919
Mhmm. So it has many applications in that

378
00:13:27,919 --> 00:13:30,134
way. Yeah. I like that so much. I

379
00:13:30,375 --> 00:13:32,054
the thing that jumps out, you you guys

380
00:13:32,054 --> 00:13:33,995
put words to something that

381
00:13:34,455 --> 00:13:35,735
I don't think my wife and I were

382
00:13:35,735 --> 00:13:37,975
really able to put words into. So when

383
00:13:37,975 --> 00:13:39,195
we got into this space,

384
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:43,429
I was very frustrated, to be completely honest.

385
00:13:43,429 --> 00:13:43,929
I

386
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:45,370
it was janky.

387
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:48,409
There was sometimes people saying conflicting things.

388
00:13:49,829 --> 00:13:52,230
It probably took a full year to finally

389
00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:54,149
get all the pieces together. I'm listening to

390
00:13:54,149 --> 00:13:55,829
every podcast I can get my hands on.

391
00:13:55,829 --> 00:13:57,884
My wife's texting me this podcast. I'm texting

392
00:13:57,884 --> 00:13:58,785
her this podcast.

393
00:13:59,485 --> 00:14:01,165
You know, finally, we started to get a

394
00:14:01,165 --> 00:14:04,365
a real grip of, okay. Alright. Here's here's

395
00:14:04,365 --> 00:14:06,524
all the things. Here's how they interact. Here's

396
00:14:06,524 --> 00:14:08,205
the things that kind of sometimes have to

397
00:14:08,205 --> 00:14:10,309
be done alone. Here's the things that have

398
00:14:10,309 --> 00:14:12,470
to be done together at some point in

399
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:12,970
time.

400
00:14:13,509 --> 00:14:15,850
But it was it was frustrating only because

401
00:14:16,710 --> 00:14:18,550
it was, you know, my my when we

402
00:14:18,550 --> 00:14:21,670
finally figured it all out and, like, realized,

403
00:14:21,670 --> 00:14:23,590
okay. Here's what good recovery is. This is

404
00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:25,215
what this is actually gonna look like. It

405
00:14:25,215 --> 00:14:26,815
It was really frustrating because I would say

406
00:14:26,815 --> 00:14:28,335
in that first year, I don't know how

407
00:14:28,335 --> 00:14:30,575
much good recovery was even happening. I mean,

408
00:14:30,575 --> 00:14:32,894
it was just we're just learning and learning

409
00:14:32,894 --> 00:14:34,495
and learning and learning and learning. You know?

410
00:14:34,495 --> 00:14:35,535
My wife was like, man, we have, like,

411
00:14:35,535 --> 00:14:38,175
our master's degree now in in in sex

412
00:14:38,175 --> 00:14:40,429
addiction and betrayal trauma because we're just trying

413
00:14:40,429 --> 00:14:41,850
to wrap our head around it.

414
00:14:42,309 --> 00:14:44,169
But at the same time, I had this,

415
00:14:44,709 --> 00:14:45,209
feeling,

416
00:14:46,950 --> 00:14:49,269
it was like, man, it's it's big, but

417
00:14:49,269 --> 00:14:51,190
at the same time, it's also not it's

418
00:14:51,190 --> 00:14:53,674
also not too big to put a at

419
00:14:53,674 --> 00:14:56,554
least into an introductory book that could give

420
00:14:56,554 --> 00:14:58,235
you a really great foundation to stand on.

421
00:14:58,235 --> 00:15:00,495
So I think what, what Tim was saying

422
00:15:00,634 --> 00:15:03,434
so resonated was it was there wasn't this

423
00:15:03,434 --> 00:15:05,754
one stop shop. There's a disclosure book, then

424
00:15:05,754 --> 00:15:06,254
there's

425
00:15:06,955 --> 00:15:07,855
a book that's

426
00:15:08,250 --> 00:15:10,330
partner sensitive but more written for the attic,

427
00:15:10,330 --> 00:15:11,929
and then there's a book that's partner sensitive

428
00:15:11,929 --> 00:15:13,210
but written for more for the partner. It's

429
00:15:13,210 --> 00:15:15,929
like, it's all these great books, awesome books.

430
00:15:15,929 --> 00:15:17,290
I've read all of them, and they're they're

431
00:15:17,290 --> 00:15:18,029
great resources.

432
00:15:18,730 --> 00:15:21,629
But there wasn't this one kind of,

433
00:15:22,554 --> 00:15:25,534
inclusive piece to really help an addict understand

434
00:15:25,914 --> 00:15:27,834
what they were actually in. You know, because

435
00:15:27,834 --> 00:15:29,514
I do think the danger with using the

436
00:15:29,514 --> 00:15:32,475
word addiction is it comes with this idea

437
00:15:32,475 --> 00:15:34,794
that we are going to detox and get

438
00:15:34,794 --> 00:15:37,009
done. Alright. Hey. I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna

439
00:15:37,009 --> 00:15:38,549
go to six twelve step meetings.

440
00:15:39,009 --> 00:15:41,009
I'm gonna get this out of my life

441
00:15:41,009 --> 00:15:43,649
and here I am, like, you know, I,

442
00:15:43,649 --> 00:15:45,490
you know, people always ask, Roan, why I'm

443
00:15:45,649 --> 00:15:47,490
because I still go to I still personally

444
00:15:47,490 --> 00:15:50,264
go to two intensives a year. I am

445
00:15:50,264 --> 00:15:53,164
regularly meeting. I am still seeing my therapist

446
00:15:53,384 --> 00:15:53,884
weekly.

447
00:15:54,985 --> 00:15:56,584
He I was away from a CSAT, I'm

448
00:15:56,584 --> 00:15:58,105
back to a CSAT now. And everyone's always

449
00:15:58,105 --> 00:15:59,704
asked me, Roland, why why are you still

450
00:15:59,704 --> 00:16:01,625
doing this? And it's like, guys, it ain't

451
00:16:01,625 --> 00:16:03,809
gone. It ain't gone. I'm not doing anything.

452
00:16:03,809 --> 00:16:05,970
I haven't realized, but, like, it is in

453
00:16:05,970 --> 00:16:08,450
me. And I if I take my foot

454
00:16:08,450 --> 00:16:09,269
off the gas,

455
00:16:10,049 --> 00:16:11,649
I don't know what's gonna happen and I

456
00:16:11,649 --> 00:16:13,330
don't wanna find out. I just love my

457
00:16:13,330 --> 00:16:15,570
wife and my life too much to live

458
00:16:15,570 --> 00:16:17,695
the consequence. So to me, and recovery is

459
00:16:17,695 --> 00:16:18,735
not a burden to me. I I I

460
00:16:18,735 --> 00:16:20,495
kind of learned to enjoy it. I didn't

461
00:16:20,495 --> 00:16:22,095
realize how messed up I was and how

462
00:16:22,095 --> 00:16:23,934
many different areas I was messed up. And

463
00:16:23,934 --> 00:16:26,735
so my businesses are all thriving because of

464
00:16:26,735 --> 00:16:29,549
it, because humans give you money. And

465
00:16:30,090 --> 00:16:32,490
my ability now to be more human allows

466
00:16:32,490 --> 00:16:34,170
me to connect with more humans, which has

467
00:16:34,170 --> 00:16:35,929
made me more successful. So to me, you

468
00:16:35,929 --> 00:16:37,370
know, if a guy is complaining about his

469
00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:38,889
recovery, I'm always like, man, you're doing it

470
00:16:38,889 --> 00:16:40,570
wrong. You're doing it wrong or you have

471
00:16:40,730 --> 00:16:42,910
or your outlook is is incorrect.

472
00:16:43,674 --> 00:16:44,875
So where do we need to go now,

473
00:16:44,875 --> 00:16:46,954
guys, is is everyone's listening to this. I'm

474
00:16:47,034 --> 00:16:48,394
they're turned on by the book. I know

475
00:16:48,394 --> 00:16:49,134
they are.

476
00:16:49,754 --> 00:16:51,514
Where do we go now so they can

477
00:16:51,514 --> 00:16:52,014
really

478
00:16:52,634 --> 00:16:53,134
grasp,

479
00:16:53,754 --> 00:16:55,995
additional benefits, additional nuggets? Where do you guys

480
00:16:55,995 --> 00:16:57,959
wanna take this rest of this conversation? Well,

481
00:16:57,959 --> 00:16:59,399
let me let me bounce back to something

482
00:16:59,399 --> 00:17:00,220
that you said,

483
00:17:01,079 --> 00:17:02,699
which I can relate to. I mean,

484
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,679
I'm pretty open. I'm in my own recovery,

485
00:17:04,679 --> 00:17:06,119
which is why I do this work. And

486
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:06,619
I'm,

487
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:08,779
and and like you, I still,

488
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:10,679
I still have my meetings that I go

489
00:17:10,679 --> 00:17:11,880
to. I still do my work on a

490
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,035
consistent basis, and

491
00:17:14,154 --> 00:17:16,555
I will never talk about myself as being

492
00:17:16,555 --> 00:17:17,055
recovered

493
00:17:17,434 --> 00:17:19,535
because I don't think that there's an endpoint.

494
00:17:20,634 --> 00:17:22,654
But when you talked about

495
00:17:23,355 --> 00:17:25,595
being frustrated in that first year of trying

496
00:17:25,595 --> 00:17:27,275
to put all those pieces together, and I

497
00:17:27,275 --> 00:17:28,815
think that this is something that

498
00:17:29,570 --> 00:17:32,150
when when you work with, like like, your

499
00:17:32,849 --> 00:17:35,509
this podcast designed for, you know, successful men,

500
00:17:36,609 --> 00:17:38,070
it can be very frustrating

501
00:17:38,690 --> 00:17:41,589
for successful men to get into recovery

502
00:17:42,375 --> 00:17:45,994
because they're intelligent, they're smart, they're well read,

503
00:17:46,134 --> 00:17:46,875
they're motivated,

504
00:17:47,255 --> 00:17:49,994
they're they're used to just finding a problem

505
00:17:50,214 --> 00:17:51,355
and fixing it.

506
00:17:51,734 --> 00:17:54,875
And the thing about sobriety and recovery work

507
00:17:55,339 --> 00:17:57,359
is that it does not work that way.

508
00:17:58,539 --> 00:18:00,539
That and I'm very fond of telling people,

509
00:18:00,539 --> 00:18:03,339
look. You cannot speed this process up. You

510
00:18:03,339 --> 00:18:05,279
can absolutely slow it down.

511
00:18:06,059 --> 00:18:06,559
But

512
00:18:07,259 --> 00:18:08,240
I don't know

513
00:18:08,644 --> 00:18:10,644
anyone, and I don't think it's realistic for

514
00:18:10,644 --> 00:18:12,404
anyone to think that they're gonna walk into

515
00:18:12,404 --> 00:18:14,345
a 12 step program in the first year,

516
00:18:14,404 --> 00:18:15,605
and at the end of the first year,

517
00:18:15,605 --> 00:18:17,524
they're gonna have everything figured out. And it's

518
00:18:17,524 --> 00:18:19,144
not because they haven't heard everything.

519
00:18:19,764 --> 00:18:21,524
It's just that they weren't ready to hear

520
00:18:21,524 --> 00:18:23,444
it yet because they didn't have the foundation

521
00:18:23,444 --> 00:18:24,799
pieces in place yet.

522
00:18:25,259 --> 00:18:26,079
And so

523
00:18:26,380 --> 00:18:28,000
there's this piece about,

524
00:18:29,019 --> 00:18:31,659
okay. Yeah. You're intelligent and you're smart and

525
00:18:31,659 --> 00:18:33,839
you're successful and you're used to just tackling

526
00:18:33,899 --> 00:18:34,399
challenges,

527
00:18:35,019 --> 00:18:37,179
and those skills are gonna be so helpful

528
00:18:37,179 --> 00:18:39,384
to you, and it's gonna drive you nuts.

529
00:18:39,384 --> 00:18:41,565
Because this is gonna require you

530
00:18:41,945 --> 00:18:43,244
to sort of slow down,

531
00:18:43,545 --> 00:18:45,724
to admit you don't have the answers,

532
00:18:46,265 --> 00:18:48,285
to let other people guide you,

533
00:18:48,585 --> 00:18:50,664
and to help other people help you figure

534
00:18:50,664 --> 00:18:52,799
out where can you actually apply

535
00:18:53,339 --> 00:18:55,200
the knowledge, the skill, the motivation,

536
00:18:55,819 --> 00:18:58,639
the the the hotspot that you've already got.

537
00:18:59,099 --> 00:19:01,200
You know? This is where you can actually

538
00:19:01,259 --> 00:19:03,179
lean in, and that can be effective for

539
00:19:03,179 --> 00:19:05,835
you instead of just trying to bulldoze your

540
00:19:05,835 --> 00:19:07,914
way through, which isn't gonna work. Yeah.

541
00:19:08,715 --> 00:19:10,315
And so I I I'll I'll just start

542
00:19:10,315 --> 00:19:12,795
with that. I going back to the book,

543
00:19:12,795 --> 00:19:14,315
what I think it does a really good

544
00:19:14,315 --> 00:19:16,815
job of is walking people through.

545
00:19:17,309 --> 00:19:19,710
Let's put those foundation pieces in place for

546
00:19:19,710 --> 00:19:20,210
you.

547
00:19:20,909 --> 00:19:23,309
Hey. Let's talk about denial so you understand

548
00:19:23,309 --> 00:19:25,389
it as clearly as you can. If you

549
00:19:25,389 --> 00:19:26,829
come back and you read that chapter a

550
00:19:26,829 --> 00:19:29,069
year from now, you're going to get different

551
00:19:29,069 --> 00:19:31,005
things out of it. But we can give

552
00:19:31,005 --> 00:19:33,265
you a good foundation piece to build from.

553
00:19:33,565 --> 00:19:36,125
Hey. Here's the here's the way that you

554
00:19:36,125 --> 00:19:37,965
put a sobriety plan in place. And then

555
00:19:37,965 --> 00:19:40,605
we purposely, like, three or four chapters later,

556
00:19:40,605 --> 00:19:41,744
circle back and say,

557
00:19:42,125 --> 00:19:44,490
is it that? And let's tune it up.

558
00:19:44,650 --> 00:19:46,410
And let's talk about how frequently you should

559
00:19:46,410 --> 00:19:48,429
circle back to that and tune it up.

560
00:19:48,490 --> 00:19:51,450
And then we move on to, okay. Hopefully,

561
00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:53,450
you've got some sobriety in place. Let's talk

562
00:19:53,450 --> 00:19:53,950
intimacy.

563
00:19:54,490 --> 00:19:56,490
What does that look like? Not because they're

564
00:19:56,490 --> 00:19:58,569
gonna read a chapter and all that's gonna

565
00:19:58,569 --> 00:20:00,894
be different, but we're gonna put a bit

566
00:20:00,894 --> 00:20:02,434
of that foundation in place

567
00:20:02,894 --> 00:20:05,075
so that when they circle back to intimacy

568
00:20:05,695 --> 00:20:07,695
in whatever way it shows up a year

569
00:20:07,695 --> 00:20:08,434
from then,

570
00:20:09,055 --> 00:20:11,315
they've got a different foundation to build on.

571
00:20:11,375 --> 00:20:13,890
But there is this piece that that,

572
00:20:14,529 --> 00:20:16,549
successful people, men or women,

573
00:20:17,089 --> 00:20:19,170
are often really frustrated about. I know I

574
00:20:19,170 --> 00:20:21,089
found I remember at the end of my

575
00:20:21,089 --> 00:20:22,930
first year of recovery being very annoyed when

576
00:20:22,930 --> 00:20:24,289
I was still referred to as the new

577
00:20:24,289 --> 00:20:25,430
guy. And I'm like,

578
00:20:26,785 --> 00:20:29,345
just no. I got this. I figured it

579
00:20:29,345 --> 00:20:31,184
out. And and it was just

580
00:20:31,744 --> 00:20:34,384
and and that that ability to, like, yes.

581
00:20:34,384 --> 00:20:35,365
You're successful.

582
00:20:35,664 --> 00:20:37,424
You're smart. You've got a lot of skills.

583
00:20:37,424 --> 00:20:38,805
You've got a lot of energy,

584
00:20:39,490 --> 00:20:41,009
and you have to figure out how to

585
00:20:41,009 --> 00:20:42,390
simultaneously be patient.

586
00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:45,649
Yeah. For the for the married for the

587
00:20:45,649 --> 00:20:46,149
married

588
00:20:46,609 --> 00:20:48,309
men, as a high achiever,

589
00:20:50,210 --> 00:20:51,269
oh, yeah. Limbo,

590
00:20:52,795 --> 00:20:54,494
having little to no control

591
00:20:55,275 --> 00:20:57,115
no control. I shouldn't even say little. No

592
00:20:57,115 --> 00:21:00,015
control over somebody else's reality and perception.

593
00:21:00,394 --> 00:21:01,055
It is

594
00:21:01,515 --> 00:21:03,275
it is it it is for many high

595
00:21:03,275 --> 00:21:05,195
achieving men their their their worst nightmare. I

596
00:21:05,195 --> 00:21:06,575
mean, it's a it's a situation

597
00:21:07,035 --> 00:21:08,335
that you cannot accelerate.

598
00:21:09,779 --> 00:21:11,380
You can definitely slow it down, but I

599
00:21:11,380 --> 00:21:13,700
mean, you you there is a point at

600
00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:15,000
which it can only move,

601
00:21:15,859 --> 00:21:17,380
so far. What I what what I heard

602
00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:18,819
you say there, Tim, what I would what

603
00:21:18,819 --> 00:21:21,059
I would mention to everybody is the reason

604
00:21:21,059 --> 00:21:23,285
that you can't accelerate this, at least at

605
00:21:23,285 --> 00:21:24,164
least in my opinion is,

606
00:21:26,085 --> 00:21:27,304
there's kinda precursors

607
00:21:27,605 --> 00:21:30,085
to some things that I couldn't work on

608
00:21:30,085 --> 00:21:30,984
until I

609
00:21:31,525 --> 00:21:33,285
established them, and a lot of them were

610
00:21:33,285 --> 00:21:35,684
way down at my core. You know, a

611
00:21:35,684 --> 00:21:38,265
a complete total distrust and fear of humans.

612
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,160
Literally, a distrust that they will meet my

613
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,759
needs and a fear of what they're gonna

614
00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:44,000
say about me and tell other people about

615
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,839
me. Right? So, you know, I

616
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,259
it was a huge hindrance to,

617
00:21:48,559 --> 00:21:50,500
and then I mean, gosh, you know, empathy.

618
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:51,839
Don't even talk to me about that. I

619
00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:53,039
still haven't learned it. But,

620
00:21:53,565 --> 00:21:54,845
you know, it's a I I think that's

621
00:21:54,845 --> 00:21:56,784
the challenge with a lot of this is

622
00:21:58,284 --> 00:22:00,524
and being a process addiction too, I think

623
00:22:00,524 --> 00:22:01,964
the challenge there too is they're kind of

624
00:22:01,964 --> 00:22:04,784
individual. Right? So there is no cookie cutter

625
00:22:05,164 --> 00:22:06,764
approach that you can slap on to every

626
00:22:06,764 --> 00:22:09,085
single individual. You know, the the the reason

627
00:22:09,085 --> 00:22:10,039
these behaviors happened

628
00:22:10,660 --> 00:22:13,220
for, you know, if you put 10 guys

629
00:22:13,220 --> 00:22:14,420
in a room, the reason why all of

630
00:22:14,420 --> 00:22:15,240
them are doing what they're doing,

631
00:22:15,859 --> 00:22:17,400
is slightly different. And,

632
00:22:17,859 --> 00:22:19,380
you know, they had different parents, they had

633
00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:20,440
different life experiences,

634
00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:22,660
and so, you know, the the things they

635
00:22:22,660 --> 00:22:23,720
latched on to

636
00:22:24,025 --> 00:22:25,545
aren't always the same. And I think that's

637
00:22:25,545 --> 00:22:26,825
the other problem is you can't come in

638
00:22:26,825 --> 00:22:28,585
there and just look around and copy everybody

639
00:22:28,585 --> 00:22:30,204
else. You know, you really have to make

640
00:22:30,744 --> 00:22:31,865
you really have to get with a cool

641
00:22:31,944 --> 00:22:33,865
with a great recovery team and make recovery

642
00:22:33,865 --> 00:22:35,304
your own. And then if you're married, you

643
00:22:35,304 --> 00:22:37,304
guys really have to to do that. And

644
00:22:37,304 --> 00:22:37,865
it's a,

645
00:22:38,599 --> 00:22:40,359
trust me. I I I wanted to push

646
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:41,740
my wife and I, we had,

647
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:43,400
we had all the time in the world.

648
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:44,920
I just sold the company. We had access

649
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:45,660
to resources.

650
00:22:46,039 --> 00:22:48,200
And our both of us were like, oh,

651
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:49,720
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna crank this out.

652
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,000
You know? We heard the whole three to

653
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,759
five years thing like, ass nonsense. We'll get

654
00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:53,924
we'll get this thing out of the way

655
00:22:53,924 --> 00:22:55,845
in eight months. And, yeah, like I said,

656
00:22:55,845 --> 00:22:57,944
I don't I don't even now in hindsight,

657
00:22:58,164 --> 00:22:59,865
I don't think we really started

658
00:23:00,804 --> 00:23:01,704
real recovery

659
00:23:02,164 --> 00:23:04,005
until probably, yeah, probably a year in, to

660
00:23:04,005 --> 00:23:05,524
be honest with you. I mean, it just,

661
00:23:05,524 --> 00:23:06,804
you know, I think we thought we were

662
00:23:06,804 --> 00:23:08,759
recovering, but I don't know if we were

663
00:23:08,759 --> 00:23:12,059
actually changing changing anything. There's there's a part

664
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,160
there's there's a part here and and the

665
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,480
the book demonstrates this as well. So when

666
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,740
Tim and I are working with folks

667
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,779
at WillowTree Counseling, it's there's three stages.

668
00:23:23,424 --> 00:23:24,164
Get sober,

669
00:23:24,865 --> 00:23:26,565
learn to stay sober,

670
00:23:27,105 --> 00:23:28,724
and a lot of people stop there.

671
00:23:29,025 --> 00:23:30,945
Mhmm. But see, really going the mile on

672
00:23:30,945 --> 00:23:33,664
having strong sobriety recovery is, now why are

673
00:23:33,664 --> 00:23:35,265
you an addict in the first place? Mhmm.

674
00:23:35,265 --> 00:23:36,884
Why is this compulsive behavior

675
00:23:37,529 --> 00:23:38,750
present in your life?

676
00:23:39,210 --> 00:23:41,369
Even though you have all these resources, even

677
00:23:41,369 --> 00:23:42,670
though you're so intelligent

678
00:23:43,130 --> 00:23:45,210
and you know how to problem solve, why

679
00:23:45,210 --> 00:23:47,369
is this behavior still there? And that's the

680
00:23:47,369 --> 00:23:48,269
deeper layers,

681
00:23:48,570 --> 00:23:50,250
I think, that you were referring to there,

682
00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:50,750
Roland,

683
00:23:51,154 --> 00:23:53,335
is that those are the deeper layers. And

684
00:23:53,474 --> 00:23:55,734
and in our book, we are the book,

685
00:23:56,034 --> 00:23:57,014
sort of developmentally.

686
00:23:57,954 --> 00:23:58,774
In the beginning,

687
00:23:59,154 --> 00:24:01,255
what is sobriety? What is denial?

688
00:24:01,714 --> 00:24:03,634
And then okay. Now how are you gonna

689
00:24:03,634 --> 00:24:05,315
maintain that? And then

690
00:24:05,950 --> 00:24:09,549
now what's the trauma or emotional wounding or

691
00:24:09,549 --> 00:24:12,369
patterns growing up or patterns in early adulthood?

692
00:24:12,910 --> 00:24:14,990
What's brought you to this place? Because it

693
00:24:14,990 --> 00:24:16,930
didn't just pop up one day.

694
00:24:18,095 --> 00:24:19,634
And I think that intellectually,

695
00:24:20,255 --> 00:24:21,954
you know, your your high achievers,

696
00:24:22,414 --> 00:24:24,275
they have all those problem solves

697
00:24:24,575 --> 00:24:26,035
skills and intellect.

698
00:24:26,494 --> 00:24:27,394
So they conceptually

699
00:24:27,695 --> 00:24:28,755
understand this.

700
00:24:29,295 --> 00:24:31,375
But, see, the kind of work that needs

701
00:24:31,375 --> 00:24:32,914
to occur is not intellectual

702
00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:34,299
necessarily.

703
00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:36,220
Mhmm. It's the emotional.

704
00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:39,500
It's that's when you get to the emotional

705
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,119
connection. That's the why am I here in

706
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,019
the first place?

707
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,319
How did I get how did it get

708
00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:46,220
this crazy?

709
00:24:47,164 --> 00:24:49,804
And that's the emotional work. And emotional work

710
00:24:49,804 --> 00:24:51,904
is not a problem to be solved,

711
00:24:52,765 --> 00:24:54,365
and it like you're saying, it has its

712
00:24:54,365 --> 00:24:55,585
own pace.

713
00:24:56,684 --> 00:24:58,785
And it also requires an openness

714
00:24:59,769 --> 00:25:00,829
or a vulnerability

715
00:25:01,690 --> 00:25:03,369
that a lot of folks who are highly

716
00:25:03,369 --> 00:25:06,109
efficient and productive in the world struggle with.

717
00:25:06,730 --> 00:25:08,650
Because I see a problem, and I know

718
00:25:08,650 --> 00:25:10,029
how to tackle that problem.

719
00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:12,109
But when the problem is me

720
00:25:12,595 --> 00:25:14,755
and those deeper levels that may be connected

721
00:25:14,755 --> 00:25:15,495
to emotions,

722
00:25:16,595 --> 00:25:18,595
I just stuff that stuff down, and let's

723
00:25:18,595 --> 00:25:19,335
move on.

724
00:25:20,355 --> 00:25:21,735
But in but in those

725
00:25:22,115 --> 00:25:24,434
later and I can see when rolling when

726
00:25:24,434 --> 00:25:26,215
you're saying, well, it took a year.

727
00:25:26,670 --> 00:25:29,970
That's your get sober, stay sobers. Right. Right.

728
00:25:30,269 --> 00:25:32,190
But to not be sort of what we

729
00:25:32,190 --> 00:25:33,570
would call a dry drunk,

730
00:25:34,269 --> 00:25:35,630
you know, you have to get to the

731
00:25:35,630 --> 00:25:38,029
deeper layers of why am I in this

732
00:25:38,029 --> 00:25:40,029
place in the first. Mhmm. How did I

733
00:25:40,029 --> 00:25:40,769
get here?

734
00:25:41,184 --> 00:25:43,505
And that's emotional work that slows down. And

735
00:25:43,505 --> 00:25:45,025
so I can see that people be very

736
00:25:45,025 --> 00:25:45,525
frustrated.

737
00:25:46,224 --> 00:25:48,785
Mhmm. Mhmm. Especially when you got technical problem

738
00:25:48,785 --> 00:25:49,285
solvers.

739
00:25:50,785 --> 00:25:53,184
There's also this piece you said, Jeanne, it's

740
00:25:53,265 --> 00:25:53,880
it it's

741
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,599
in in some ways, it's like, oh, the

742
00:25:56,599 --> 00:25:57,660
problem is me.

743
00:25:58,279 --> 00:25:58,440
But

744
00:25:59,319 --> 00:26:00,220
Mhmm. Again,

745
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,839
when you're in a relationship and your partner

746
00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:05,000
has betrayal trauma and their triggers are coming

747
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,599
up and their pain and their anger and

748
00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:09,454
their reactivity is coming up, it's really easy,

749
00:26:09,914 --> 00:26:11,054
especially for

750
00:26:11,434 --> 00:26:13,355
people who are used to being in control

751
00:26:13,355 --> 00:26:15,694
and in charge and managing and controlling

752
00:26:15,994 --> 00:26:17,755
to say, well, I just need to fix

753
00:26:17,755 --> 00:26:20,234
that. I just need I can make everything

754
00:26:20,234 --> 00:26:22,554
better. And I will I I will phrase

755
00:26:22,554 --> 00:26:24,700
it and say, when we are trying to

756
00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:26,799
fix whatever is going on with our partner,

757
00:26:27,339 --> 00:26:30,779
that's just us emotionally manipulating them so that

758
00:26:30,779 --> 00:26:33,359
their emotional state is more comfortable for us.

759
00:26:33,419 --> 00:26:33,919
Mhmm.

760
00:26:34,460 --> 00:26:37,440
Mhmm. And one of the things that we

761
00:26:37,684 --> 00:26:39,684
we don't I don't think we explicitly come

762
00:26:39,684 --> 00:26:41,204
out and just say this because we could

763
00:26:41,204 --> 00:26:43,365
and they wouldn't hear it. But what we've

764
00:26:43,365 --> 00:26:46,184
woven throughout the partner sensitivity piece

765
00:26:46,565 --> 00:26:47,944
is the idea of

766
00:26:48,404 --> 00:26:49,384
you can't fix

767
00:26:49,765 --> 00:26:51,304
what's going on with your partner.

768
00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:54,109
You can't heal their wounds for them.

769
00:26:54,490 --> 00:26:56,250
The most important thing you can do is

770
00:26:56,250 --> 00:26:57,789
be sensitive to their process,

771
00:26:58,409 --> 00:26:59,950
understanding of their experience,

772
00:27:00,569 --> 00:27:01,309
and patient.

773
00:27:02,169 --> 00:27:03,309
And offering help.

774
00:27:03,654 --> 00:27:05,575
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, holding

775
00:27:05,575 --> 00:27:07,335
the holding the space, holding the container. Because

776
00:27:07,335 --> 00:27:08,855
I I will I'll I'll speak to that

777
00:27:08,855 --> 00:27:09,355
personally

778
00:27:09,815 --> 00:27:10,634
where things

779
00:27:11,015 --> 00:27:12,535
things were really good. I was I was

780
00:27:12,694 --> 00:27:14,055
you know, we we had really good help

781
00:27:14,055 --> 00:27:16,214
early on. You know, you personally know some

782
00:27:16,214 --> 00:27:17,400
of the people who helped us.

783
00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:19,660
And so we had a great,

784
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,259
great, great, great help.

785
00:27:22,039 --> 00:27:24,440
And I did a good job, but where

786
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,820
things started getting bad, Tim, was when I

787
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:28,360
Mhmm.

788
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,575
Did what you said. I, you you know,

789
00:27:31,575 --> 00:27:33,015
it's like, oh, yeah. Yeah. We know this

790
00:27:33,015 --> 00:27:34,375
thing. We're we're in the you know? And

791
00:27:34,375 --> 00:27:36,375
now I started I started and I should

792
00:27:36,375 --> 00:27:38,214
have known better. Right? Because if I really

793
00:27:38,214 --> 00:27:39,734
claimed to know as much as I am

794
00:27:39,734 --> 00:27:42,294
claiming to know, I should have known better.

795
00:27:42,294 --> 00:27:44,454
But, you know, then I started getting into

796
00:27:44,454 --> 00:27:45,515
her recovery.

797
00:27:46,220 --> 00:27:47,340
You know, this is, you know you know,

798
00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:49,019
as we started getting to, like, a year

799
00:27:49,019 --> 00:27:50,160
two and a half plus,

800
00:27:50,539 --> 00:27:52,539
now all of a sudden I'm I have

801
00:27:52,539 --> 00:27:54,539
some things to say about what she could

802
00:27:54,539 --> 00:27:55,820
and should do. And I will tell you

803
00:27:55,820 --> 00:27:58,220
what, Tim, you it doesn't matter if you're

804
00:27:58,220 --> 00:27:59,740
two and a half years it doesn't matter

805
00:27:59,740 --> 00:28:01,214
if you're two and a half years out.

806
00:28:01,294 --> 00:28:01,954
That's where

807
00:28:02,255 --> 00:28:04,894
I thought that I had earned the right

808
00:28:04,894 --> 00:28:05,714
to be able

809
00:28:06,494 --> 00:28:07,855
to get in there a little bit. I

810
00:28:08,095 --> 00:28:09,454
that did not go well.

811
00:28:10,095 --> 00:28:12,835
Absolutely not. I will tell you, you know,

812
00:28:12,894 --> 00:28:13,714
as a therapist

813
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,720
who works in this field and and knows

814
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,720
a lot of this stuff, it has never

815
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,160
gone well when I've tried to tell my

816
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,400
wife or any family member how to do

817
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:23,059
their healing.

818
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,779
You know, what what works every time

819
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:26,900
is

820
00:28:27,445 --> 00:28:27,945
understanding,

821
00:28:28,325 --> 00:28:28,825
trusting,

822
00:28:29,365 --> 00:28:30,505
giving them space,

823
00:28:30,965 --> 00:28:32,585
letting them find their way through.

824
00:28:33,125 --> 00:28:35,205
I can offer resources when they ask, but

825
00:28:35,205 --> 00:28:37,205
when I try to put them on other

826
00:28:37,205 --> 00:28:37,705
people,

827
00:28:38,244 --> 00:28:39,924
it doesn't work. And that's one of the

828
00:28:39,924 --> 00:28:41,945
things that I I think that we've really

829
00:28:42,529 --> 00:28:45,250
that comes across in this book. It's, hey.

830
00:28:45,250 --> 00:28:48,210
Here's how you can support your partner. Mhmm.

831
00:28:48,210 --> 00:28:50,549
Here's how you can understand what's going on.

832
00:28:51,409 --> 00:28:51,909
Because

833
00:28:52,769 --> 00:28:54,690
addicts are notorious for wanting to try to

834
00:28:54,690 --> 00:28:55,589
fix the partner

835
00:28:56,085 --> 00:28:59,065
so that Oh, they're my population. My population.

836
00:28:59,125 --> 00:29:00,804
They absolutely I you know, the thing that

837
00:29:00,804 --> 00:29:02,585
comes to mind when you say that is,

838
00:29:03,605 --> 00:29:05,284
I I think the thing that gets my

839
00:29:05,284 --> 00:29:06,345
clients into trouble

840
00:29:06,644 --> 00:29:07,144
is

841
00:29:08,085 --> 00:29:08,585
they,

842
00:29:10,259 --> 00:29:11,860
one thing that our our groups do, we

843
00:29:11,860 --> 00:29:14,180
make recovery really fun. That's, like, my goal.

844
00:29:14,180 --> 00:29:16,100
And it offends some of the partners because

845
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:18,019
they're like, hey. This should be you guys

846
00:29:18,019 --> 00:29:19,620
need to yeah. This should be like prison.

847
00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:21,220
This should be like boot camp, not not

848
00:29:21,220 --> 00:29:22,279
not summer camp.

849
00:29:22,740 --> 00:29:24,279
But the reason I do it is

850
00:29:24,765 --> 00:29:26,684
this is gonna be a long haul. I

851
00:29:26,765 --> 00:29:29,325
to me, if if recovery is monotonous, boring,

852
00:29:29,325 --> 00:29:30,945
and a and a pain in your butt,

853
00:29:31,325 --> 00:29:33,325
that's a bit dangerous. I think if you

854
00:29:33,325 --> 00:29:35,244
love your recovery group, you're counting down the

855
00:29:35,244 --> 00:29:36,765
days to the next time you guys get

856
00:29:36,765 --> 00:29:37,505
to be together.

857
00:29:38,190 --> 00:29:39,630
It's just a it's a it's a to

858
00:29:39,630 --> 00:29:41,869
me, it's a I see guys thrive in

859
00:29:41,869 --> 00:29:44,289
that container when they're when they're enjoying

860
00:29:44,589 --> 00:29:46,990
other people calling them out and making them

861
00:29:46,990 --> 00:29:48,509
better. I to me, that's that's it's a

862
00:29:48,509 --> 00:29:50,990
beautiful container. But I Tim, what I the

863
00:29:50,990 --> 00:29:52,289
thing that I see is

864
00:29:54,305 --> 00:29:55,525
our recovery is

865
00:29:55,825 --> 00:29:58,484
fun. It's a blast. I'm I'm I'm uncovering

866
00:29:58,545 --> 00:30:01,505
things that I didn't even know were wrong

867
00:30:01,505 --> 00:30:03,025
with me. So it's like, oh, great. Because

868
00:30:03,025 --> 00:30:04,644
that's the thing. A lot of high achievers,

869
00:30:04,705 --> 00:30:07,509
like, they don't really wanna be right. They

870
00:30:07,509 --> 00:30:08,649
want to realize

871
00:30:09,109 --> 00:30:09,990
what they

872
00:30:10,710 --> 00:30:12,629
what's wrong so they can be right. So

873
00:30:12,629 --> 00:30:13,750
see what I'm saying? So it's like, we

874
00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:15,450
do wanna be right, but we're also,

875
00:30:15,829 --> 00:30:17,589
you know, the fastest the faster I can

876
00:30:17,589 --> 00:30:19,509
learn what I'm wrong about, I can be

877
00:30:19,509 --> 00:30:21,615
right about it. Right? And so our recovery

878
00:30:21,615 --> 00:30:22,835
is fun. We're uncovering,

879
00:30:23,295 --> 00:30:25,214
you know, we all were like, love avoidant.

880
00:30:25,214 --> 00:30:27,134
That's not me. I cry I cry when

881
00:30:27,134 --> 00:30:29,455
I'm watching a Budweiser commercial with the horse

882
00:30:29,455 --> 00:30:30,355
and the you know?

883
00:30:30,734 --> 00:30:32,654
Well, okay. Turns out I am love avoidant.

884
00:30:32,654 --> 00:30:34,015
I didn't, you know, I I I didn't

885
00:30:34,015 --> 00:30:36,450
know. Oh, I'm not intimacy and everything. Well,

886
00:30:36,529 --> 00:30:37,970
you know, truth be told,

887
00:30:38,369 --> 00:30:40,130
it turns out I am. Right? So it's

888
00:30:40,130 --> 00:30:41,750
this fun process of

889
00:30:42,369 --> 00:30:44,849
realizing how much better my life could be.

890
00:30:44,849 --> 00:30:46,450
And so I think the thing that gets

891
00:30:46,450 --> 00:30:48,230
my clients into trouble is

892
00:30:49,265 --> 00:30:51,044
that's not what it's like for the partner.

893
00:30:51,505 --> 00:30:53,025
To them, it's like I just wanna get

894
00:30:53,025 --> 00:30:55,424
back to feeling normal like myself again. Right?

895
00:30:55,424 --> 00:30:56,464
For them, it's it's

896
00:30:57,105 --> 00:30:59,424
it's not a trophy or this better life.

897
00:30:59,424 --> 00:31:02,464
It's this unjust, painful journey of just trying

898
00:31:02,464 --> 00:31:05,090
to grab some degree of a normal life

899
00:31:05,090 --> 00:31:07,190
again where I don't see a beautiful woman

900
00:31:07,410 --> 00:31:09,330
and become threatened by it, right? Like, you

901
00:31:09,330 --> 00:31:10,850
know, these poor women, they'll they'll hang around

902
00:31:10,850 --> 00:31:11,910
their beautiful friends

903
00:31:12,210 --> 00:31:13,890
and become threatened by their own friends or

904
00:31:13,890 --> 00:31:16,049
siblings. I mean, it's it's a really tragic

905
00:31:16,049 --> 00:31:17,625
thing. So I I just I wanted to

906
00:31:17,625 --> 00:31:18,825
bring that up because I think it it

907
00:31:18,825 --> 00:31:20,505
gets my guys into trouble a little bit

908
00:31:20,505 --> 00:31:21,785
because, like, oh, you just need to go

909
00:31:21,865 --> 00:31:23,465
you need to meet Roland. He'll fix you.

910
00:31:23,465 --> 00:31:24,445
Right? It's just like

911
00:31:24,984 --> 00:31:26,664
that, you know, that the it it's not

912
00:31:26,664 --> 00:31:28,664
like that for them. You know, this you

913
00:31:28,664 --> 00:31:30,505
know, with our groups, we're talking about what

914
00:31:30,505 --> 00:31:32,680
we're missing out on and we're, like, trying

915
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,440
to obtain this life that we never got

916
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,920
to live. It's exciting. It's fun. That's it's

917
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,000
not the journey for the partners. How do

918
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,759
you guys address you know, when you're talking

919
00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:42,620
about the partner sensitive piece,

920
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,115
how do you guys wrap in from a

921
00:31:45,115 --> 00:31:47,115
workbook standpoint, how do they what kind of

922
00:31:47,115 --> 00:31:49,355
exercises do you guys do to get them

923
00:31:49,355 --> 00:31:51,035
to wrap their head around how different this

924
00:31:51,035 --> 00:31:51,775
is for them?

925
00:31:52,474 --> 00:31:55,054
It's it's not so much exercises in that

926
00:31:55,275 --> 00:31:55,755
because,

927
00:31:56,250 --> 00:31:57,150
it's more the

928
00:31:57,609 --> 00:31:59,049
education. And and, well, and you said it

929
00:31:59,049 --> 00:32:02,089
so beautifully right there. These are such different

930
00:32:02,089 --> 00:32:04,089
experiences. We have a an article in the

931
00:32:04,089 --> 00:32:06,349
partner sensitivity, two roads to Rome.

932
00:32:07,130 --> 00:32:08,349
Addiction treatment,

933
00:32:09,005 --> 00:32:13,005
the challenge, the insight, the new awareness, the

934
00:32:13,005 --> 00:32:13,904
new skills,

935
00:32:14,445 --> 00:32:16,785
you know, there are all these resources available.

936
00:32:17,565 --> 00:32:20,605
And thank goodness there's more resource resources for

937
00:32:20,605 --> 00:32:22,924
betrayed partners these days. But back ten, fifteen

938
00:32:22,924 --> 00:32:24,059
years ago, there weren't.

939
00:32:24,539 --> 00:32:26,960
But addiction treatment is new behavior,

940
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:29,440
trying things, becoming mastery.

941
00:32:29,820 --> 00:32:32,059
Mhmm. That can be very exciting and self

942
00:32:32,059 --> 00:32:34,400
fulfilling. Now there's a lot of shame work,

943
00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:36,160
right, in those deeper layers.

944
00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:38,160
Betray partners,

945
00:32:38,734 --> 00:32:40,115
that's trauma work.

946
00:32:41,375 --> 00:32:43,474
Trauma work is not about behavior

947
00:32:44,015 --> 00:32:44,515
rehearsal.

948
00:32:45,455 --> 00:32:48,674
Behave trauma work is about slow moving,

949
00:32:49,455 --> 00:32:49,955
reexamining,

950
00:32:50,734 --> 00:32:51,234
reexamining,

951
00:32:52,015 --> 00:32:52,515
reexamining,

952
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,400
assessment of safety on a regular basis. It

953
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,340
is a slow moving turtle

954
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,180
for a long time.

955
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:01,700
And so

956
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,859
making sure those who betrayed

957
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:04,660
understand

958
00:33:05,865 --> 00:33:08,744
that betrayed is not doing it incorrectly. If

959
00:33:08,744 --> 00:33:10,924
you're the betrayer looking over at betrayed,

960
00:33:11,704 --> 00:33:13,005
they're not doing it incorrectly.

961
00:33:13,625 --> 00:33:15,384
It's just a different thing. I mean, if

962
00:33:15,384 --> 00:33:16,444
you look at cardiology

963
00:33:17,704 --> 00:33:18,684
and optometry,

964
00:33:19,579 --> 00:33:21,339
they're different parts of the body. They're gonna

965
00:33:21,339 --> 00:33:22,320
need different things.

966
00:33:22,940 --> 00:33:24,480
And so having this sensitivity

967
00:33:25,259 --> 00:33:26,480
Mhmm. And understanding

968
00:33:26,779 --> 00:33:28,960
of my process is not the same

969
00:33:29,420 --> 00:33:30,960
as my loved one's process.

970
00:33:31,515 --> 00:33:34,714
Mhmm. Mhmm. And we absolutely hear one more

971
00:33:34,714 --> 00:33:36,795
thing. They absolutely hear and echo what you're

972
00:33:36,795 --> 00:33:39,695
saying. We're betrayed, kinda look over the fence

973
00:33:40,154 --> 00:33:42,394
and say, now they're having all this fun

974
00:33:42,394 --> 00:33:44,634
over there. They're having coffee all the time.

975
00:33:44,634 --> 00:33:46,714
They're going these meetings. They have all these

976
00:33:46,714 --> 00:33:47,130
books,

977
00:33:47,930 --> 00:33:49,710
and I just can't get out of bed.

978
00:33:49,849 --> 00:33:51,869
Mhmm. Right? And I haven't seen my

979
00:33:52,170 --> 00:33:54,490
my friends in three months. Mhmm. It's the

980
00:33:54,490 --> 00:33:54,990
sensitivity

981
00:33:55,369 --> 00:33:56,430
that it's so different

982
00:33:57,369 --> 00:33:58,829
so that so that betrayed

983
00:33:59,930 --> 00:34:00,410
has,

984
00:34:01,369 --> 00:34:02,910
a feeling of safe place,

985
00:34:03,904 --> 00:34:04,724
and betrayer

986
00:34:05,025 --> 00:34:06,325
is not losing patience.

987
00:34:06,625 --> 00:34:09,505
Yeah. Well said. So important. Yeah. Well said.

988
00:34:09,505 --> 00:34:10,945
Yeah. The the the thing that I'd highlight

989
00:34:10,945 --> 00:34:13,105
there was that sums it up so nicely

990
00:34:13,105 --> 00:34:14,545
is and my wife reminds me of this

991
00:34:14,545 --> 00:34:15,264
all the time.

992
00:34:15,824 --> 00:34:16,324
Trauma.

993
00:34:17,025 --> 00:34:20,099
Like, you know, guys, just just just like

994
00:34:20,260 --> 00:34:22,679
it's not the same it's not the same

995
00:34:22,739 --> 00:34:25,219
as, you know, you know, changing your behavior

996
00:34:25,219 --> 00:34:25,719
pattern,

997
00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:30,039
is not the same as trauma, especially trauma

998
00:34:30,179 --> 00:34:32,405
like this. I mean, this when you really

999
00:34:32,565 --> 00:34:34,244
you know, one thing that I learned in

1000
00:34:34,244 --> 00:34:35,844
one of the courses that I took, it

1001
00:34:35,844 --> 00:34:38,085
was such a painful course to take because

1002
00:34:38,085 --> 00:34:38,985
it was just, like,

1003
00:34:40,085 --> 00:34:41,925
just made me feel horrible about everything that

1004
00:34:41,925 --> 00:34:43,925
I did. But it the benefit of it

1005
00:34:43,925 --> 00:34:46,559
was to show you how different this is.

1006
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:47,460
You know, the

1007
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,780
the what what these behaviors

1008
00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:52,420
did to these women in in in microseconds,

1009
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,119
literally discovering it, and then all of a

1010
00:34:55,119 --> 00:34:55,619
sudden

1011
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,480
brain just, whoop, changed over. All of a

1012
00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:58,980
sudden,

1013
00:34:59,295 --> 00:35:01,295
now looking over at this woman, just just

1014
00:35:01,295 --> 00:35:02,894
the day before, this woman was not a

1015
00:35:02,894 --> 00:35:04,655
threat. Now it's did my husband sleep with

1016
00:35:04,655 --> 00:35:05,934
this person? Does he wanna sleep with this

1017
00:35:05,934 --> 00:35:07,614
person? Is this the type of pornography he

1018
00:35:07,614 --> 00:35:09,015
looked at? I mean, like, you know, it's

1019
00:35:09,135 --> 00:35:11,214
I think that's, to me, the thing that

1020
00:35:11,214 --> 00:35:12,734
I I mean, I still need to anchor

1021
00:35:12,734 --> 00:35:13,954
in that to really

1022
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,300
appreciate the difference. We're talking about

1023
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,340
we are talking about two different healing processes.

1024
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:21,160
And I think guys too can relate a

1025
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:22,360
little bit. You know, for me, I was

1026
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,440
arrested because of my sexual behavior when I

1027
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:25,579
was 14 years old.

1028
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,275
As a 14 year old boy, arrested, fingerprinted,

1029
00:35:28,894 --> 00:35:30,574
taken, put in the back of a cop

1030
00:35:30,574 --> 00:35:31,074
car.

1031
00:35:32,014 --> 00:35:34,014
So I can relate because I have had

1032
00:35:34,014 --> 00:35:36,255
to undo they they polygraphed me back then

1033
00:35:36,255 --> 00:35:37,375
when I was 14. I mean, it was

1034
00:35:37,375 --> 00:35:40,094
a horrific experience that altered my life forever.

1035
00:35:40,094 --> 00:35:42,530
And I so I can relate to a

1036
00:35:42,530 --> 00:35:44,390
teeny, teeny, tiny small amount

1037
00:35:44,849 --> 00:35:46,530
of the thing that lives in my body,

1038
00:35:46,530 --> 00:35:48,449
you know, saying that and what happens to

1039
00:35:48,449 --> 00:35:50,849
my throat just talking about it. Like, you

1040
00:35:50,849 --> 00:35:53,010
know, guys have all been traumatized before. If

1041
00:35:53,010 --> 00:35:54,769
you can imagine that and then times it

1042
00:35:54,769 --> 00:35:56,550
by a 100 and make it present day,

1043
00:35:56,825 --> 00:35:59,224
that's really what we're trying to navigate here.

1044
00:35:59,224 --> 00:36:00,585
And so thank you for bringing that up.

1045
00:36:00,585 --> 00:36:02,025
I mean, that's really the difference. We can't

1046
00:36:02,025 --> 00:36:03,625
even compare the two. They're not even they're

1047
00:36:03,625 --> 00:36:05,545
not even they're not even the recovery processes

1048
00:36:05,545 --> 00:36:06,525
are not even remotely,

1049
00:36:07,144 --> 00:36:09,164
similar. Totally different. Yeah. Thank you.

1050
00:36:09,469 --> 00:36:10,750
And like you were saying, I mean, it

1051
00:36:10,750 --> 00:36:11,710
can be fun. I mean, you go to

1052
00:36:11,710 --> 00:36:13,630
a 12 step meeting, and it's like, hey.

1053
00:36:13,630 --> 00:36:15,949
Good job staying sober for three months. That's

1054
00:36:15,949 --> 00:36:18,429
awesome. Yeah. You know? Oh, you you had

1055
00:36:18,429 --> 00:36:20,190
that challenge and you got through. That's great.

1056
00:36:20,190 --> 00:36:22,210
And, you know, partner meetings are more,

1057
00:36:22,829 --> 00:36:24,529
yeah, I I got out of bed.

1058
00:36:24,914 --> 00:36:25,414
Yeah.

1059
00:36:26,035 --> 00:36:27,335
Yeah. Well said.

1060
00:36:27,635 --> 00:36:29,155
You know? Or or here's

1061
00:36:30,035 --> 00:36:32,375
yay. Three months because he cheated on me.

1062
00:36:33,875 --> 00:36:36,195
Yeah. For real. Yeah. Seriously. Yeah. Like, oh,

1063
00:36:36,195 --> 00:36:39,190
you upheld the contract that we signed nineteen

1064
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:40,710
years ago when we got married. Good for

1065
00:36:40,710 --> 00:36:42,630
you. Right? You know, it's you know, that's

1066
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:44,630
the because it is. It's just they're two

1067
00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:46,969
different things. And, so I have a question.

1068
00:36:48,789 --> 00:36:50,550
What, what and this you know, my my

1069
00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:52,150
guess is this isn't in the book because

1070
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:53,785
this would this is a huge topic. I

1071
00:36:53,864 --> 00:36:55,465
but I am more so curious to get

1072
00:36:55,465 --> 00:36:57,545
your opinions on it because I really respect

1073
00:36:57,545 --> 00:36:58,824
both of you and the way you look

1074
00:36:58,824 --> 00:36:59,485
at things.

1075
00:37:00,425 --> 00:37:02,425
One thing I have been trying to introduce

1076
00:37:02,425 --> 00:37:03,864
to the space because, again, I like what

1077
00:37:03,864 --> 00:37:05,920
you guys are doing is trying to help

1078
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,760
give people from the out of the gates

1079
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,400
an appreciation for the size and dynamics of

1080
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,239
this thing. Because I do. I think if

1081
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,260
you don't have honor the size of this,

1082
00:37:15,199 --> 00:37:17,119
you know, you you you do. You you

1083
00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:19,460
you delay it. You make it more painful.

1084
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:20,000
You,

1085
00:37:20,724 --> 00:37:21,945
potentially retraumatize

1086
00:37:22,405 --> 00:37:23,784
each other through the process.

1087
00:37:24,484 --> 00:37:25,784
I'm curious what,

1088
00:37:27,204 --> 00:37:28,505
your take is on

1089
00:37:29,125 --> 00:37:30,105
the societal

1090
00:37:30,484 --> 00:37:32,484
influences of a lot of this. The more

1091
00:37:32,484 --> 00:37:34,005
and more and more I've hung out in

1092
00:37:34,005 --> 00:37:34,744
the space,

1093
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,280
I've wondered how much of what we're dealing

1094
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:40,579
with in this problem

1095
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:44,400
are beliefs that have been adopted as normal.

1096
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,480
I I'm gonna speak more so from my

1097
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:47,460
particular population.

1098
00:37:48,305 --> 00:37:50,405
Successful male culture has,

1099
00:37:52,545 --> 00:37:54,085
used women, unfortunately,

1100
00:37:54,625 --> 00:37:56,885
as a status symbol.

1101
00:37:57,265 --> 00:37:59,184
This could be divorcing your wife and upgrading

1102
00:37:59,184 --> 00:38:01,204
your wife for a more attractive younger version.

1103
00:38:01,265 --> 00:38:03,030
In some parts of the country, that's a

1104
00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:04,250
popular thing to do.

1105
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:06,489
It could be more so as simple as,

1106
00:38:07,590 --> 00:38:10,469
hey. James Bond sleeps with three women and

1107
00:38:10,469 --> 00:38:12,969
never calls them again, and everyone loves James.

1108
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:15,430
So why when I do this that I'm

1109
00:38:15,430 --> 00:38:17,264
not? You know, you put on TV, I

1110
00:38:17,264 --> 00:38:18,864
I always talk about the music videos. The

1111
00:38:18,864 --> 00:38:19,684
music videos,

1112
00:38:20,304 --> 00:38:22,065
the guy we know in real life he

1113
00:38:22,065 --> 00:38:23,984
has a wife and three kids. We know

1114
00:38:23,984 --> 00:38:25,824
this in real life. Well, how come in

1115
00:38:25,824 --> 00:38:28,704
the music video he's drinking with all these

1116
00:38:28,704 --> 00:38:31,050
women in their underwear in his hot tub?

1117
00:38:31,449 --> 00:38:32,890
Right. You know, and his kids and wife

1118
00:38:32,890 --> 00:38:34,809
are nowhere to be seen. So to me,

1119
00:38:34,809 --> 00:38:36,590
you know, it sends a pretty clear message.

1120
00:38:37,369 --> 00:38:39,869
No one wants to watch a monogamous integrity

1121
00:38:40,010 --> 00:38:43,210
driven male. They all wanna celebrate the guy

1122
00:38:43,210 --> 00:38:44,925
who can get all the women all the

1123
00:38:44,925 --> 00:38:46,285
sex that he wants, all the women that

1124
00:38:46,285 --> 00:38:47,885
he wants, the house he wants, the car

1125
00:38:47,885 --> 00:38:50,445
he wants. So I'm just curious on your

1126
00:38:50,445 --> 00:38:52,605
guys' take on this when we're talking about

1127
00:38:52,605 --> 00:38:54,065
the field of sex addiction.

1128
00:38:55,325 --> 00:38:58,130
It doesn't often get addressed as much as

1129
00:38:58,130 --> 00:38:59,809
I would love to see it addressed because

1130
00:38:59,809 --> 00:39:00,390
I think

1131
00:39:00,769 --> 00:39:02,690
being in this world is like three steps

1132
00:39:02,690 --> 00:39:04,210
back. And so I think when we see

1133
00:39:04,210 --> 00:39:04,710
guys

1134
00:39:05,170 --> 00:39:05,670
relapsing,

1135
00:39:06,690 --> 00:39:09,170
you know, because that happens unfortunately often in

1136
00:39:09,170 --> 00:39:10,230
this space. Right?

1137
00:39:10,655 --> 00:39:12,734
When I see it, I think the challenge

1138
00:39:12,734 --> 00:39:13,234
is

1139
00:39:14,335 --> 00:39:16,974
again, calling this addiction, there's this idea this

1140
00:39:16,974 --> 00:39:19,375
idea that this man is gonna go, he's

1141
00:39:19,375 --> 00:39:21,214
gonna detox, and this is gonna be out

1142
00:39:21,214 --> 00:39:22,974
of his life, and we're gonna and then

1143
00:39:22,974 --> 00:39:24,034
we can move forward.

1144
00:39:24,380 --> 00:39:26,140
To me, the world is almost like three

1145
00:39:26,140 --> 00:39:27,500
steps back every day. So if you're not

1146
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:29,199
taking at least three steps forward

1147
00:39:29,820 --> 00:39:31,280
or four or five,

1148
00:39:31,660 --> 00:39:34,800
you you it's very challenging to be here

1149
00:39:35,099 --> 00:39:37,500
and unsubscribe from that, especially for my population

1150
00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:38,593
because they really care about what society considers

1151
00:39:38,593 --> 00:39:38,678
admirable and impressive. And so it's it's very

1152
00:39:38,678 --> 00:39:39,920
difficult to live this,

1153
00:39:40,585 --> 00:39:42,744
considers admirable and impressive. And so it's it's

1154
00:39:42,744 --> 00:39:45,625
very difficult to live this life when everyone

1155
00:39:45,625 --> 00:39:47,224
out here used to be cheering for me,

1156
00:39:47,224 --> 00:39:49,065
and now I'm living sober and I'm getting

1157
00:39:49,065 --> 00:39:51,224
less I'm getting less attention. I'm getting less

1158
00:39:51,224 --> 00:39:53,224
celebration. It's how do we make sense of

1159
00:39:53,224 --> 00:39:54,344
that, and how much do you guys think

1160
00:39:54,344 --> 00:39:55,805
that that's contributing to

1161
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:57,139
this problem?

1162
00:39:58,079 --> 00:40:00,319
Well, let me let me start by bouncing

1163
00:40:00,319 --> 00:40:02,019
back to something you've said twice now,

1164
00:40:02,639 --> 00:40:04,960
which is the idea of, I'm gonna do

1165
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,400
this for six to eight months. I'm gonna

1166
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,864
figure it out. I'll be done. And, I

1167
00:40:08,864 --> 00:40:10,704
will just be blunt and say, I don't

1168
00:40:10,704 --> 00:40:12,804
care who you are listening out there.

1169
00:40:13,344 --> 00:40:15,585
If you think that coming in the door

1170
00:40:15,585 --> 00:40:17,764
here, you are going to be sadly mistaken.

1171
00:40:18,065 --> 00:40:19,824
Either that or you're going to decide that

1172
00:40:19,824 --> 00:40:21,425
this isn't worth the work and you're gonna

1173
00:40:21,425 --> 00:40:22,719
quit, and and you're gonna go back to

1174
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,480
the old patterns. Yeah. Well said. This is

1175
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:24,980
not

1176
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,079
a six to eight month thing. This is

1177
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:28,900
going to become

1178
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,599
a lifetime process that you are walking for

1179
00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:33,200
the rest of your life. And it gets

1180
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:33,700
easier

1181
00:40:34,094 --> 00:40:35,614
the longer that you walk it as long

1182
00:40:35,614 --> 00:40:36,514
as you stay sober.

1183
00:40:36,894 --> 00:40:38,815
But it gets easier the longer you walk

1184
00:40:38,815 --> 00:40:40,974
it, but it will never be something that

1185
00:40:40,974 --> 00:40:42,974
is gonna be done. Now as far as

1186
00:40:42,974 --> 00:40:44,355
that, the cultural piece,

1187
00:40:45,215 --> 00:40:47,554
it it's a mixed bag in my opinion.

1188
00:40:48,489 --> 00:40:49,630
From one perspective,

1189
00:40:50,329 --> 00:40:53,230
the the the men looking at women

1190
00:40:53,610 --> 00:40:55,550
as objects of status

1191
00:40:56,970 --> 00:40:59,230
is not unique to our culture. That is

1192
00:40:59,769 --> 00:41:02,910
prevalent throughout the world, throughout multiple multiple cultures

1193
00:41:03,215 --> 00:41:04,914
throughout the world, and it's been present

1194
00:41:05,215 --> 00:41:06,114
for centuries

1195
00:41:06,414 --> 00:41:07,474
before now.

1196
00:41:08,175 --> 00:41:11,135
And so that aspect has has always been

1197
00:41:11,135 --> 00:41:13,295
there. And, also, we know that sex addiction

1198
00:41:13,295 --> 00:41:14,034
is not

1199
00:41:14,335 --> 00:41:17,300
unique to just western culture. The World Health

1200
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:19,159
Organization put out their sexuality

1201
00:41:19,460 --> 00:41:19,960
survey,

1202
00:41:20,340 --> 00:41:23,079
and we they were able to include questions

1203
00:41:23,300 --> 00:41:25,719
specifically looking for sexual addiction patterns.

1204
00:41:26,019 --> 00:41:28,440
And what we found is that sexual addiction

1205
00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:30,105
patterns are prevalent

1206
00:41:30,405 --> 00:41:32,485
in all of the the cultures of the

1207
00:41:32,485 --> 00:41:35,385
world. It's not just a Western culture thing.

1208
00:41:35,684 --> 00:41:37,144
Regardless of whether there's,

1209
00:41:37,765 --> 00:41:40,805
you know, all the music videos with all

1210
00:41:40,805 --> 00:41:42,664
the scantily clad women and

1211
00:41:43,050 --> 00:41:46,010
male domination stuff out there or not? Mhmm.

1212
00:41:46,010 --> 00:41:46,510
So

1213
00:41:47,050 --> 00:41:49,690
is it purely our culture driving it? It

1214
00:41:49,690 --> 00:41:50,349
is not.

1215
00:41:50,650 --> 00:41:52,190
Our culture doesn't help.

1216
00:41:52,650 --> 00:41:54,190
I mean, one of the things

1217
00:41:54,650 --> 00:41:55,150
that,

1218
00:41:55,625 --> 00:41:56,905
like, I got I'm the president of the

1219
00:41:56,905 --> 00:41:59,224
American Foundation for Addiction Research, and one of

1220
00:41:59,224 --> 00:42:01,224
the things that we did is while we

1221
00:42:01,224 --> 00:42:02,684
are not an anti porn

1222
00:42:03,065 --> 00:42:06,264
organization, we fund research advocacy and education into

1223
00:42:06,264 --> 00:42:07,964
sex addiction and betrayal trauma.

1224
00:42:08,460 --> 00:42:10,300
But we did fund one of the amicus

1225
00:42:10,300 --> 00:42:12,619
briefs for the Supreme Court around the Texas

1226
00:42:12,619 --> 00:42:14,859
law saying there should actually be real age

1227
00:42:14,859 --> 00:42:15,359
verification

1228
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:16,960
on adult websites.

1229
00:42:17,659 --> 00:42:20,539
And part of that is because while porn

1230
00:42:21,945 --> 00:42:24,105
you do something enough, you can create an

1231
00:42:24,105 --> 00:42:25,164
addiction. Mhmm.

1232
00:42:25,704 --> 00:42:26,204
And

1233
00:42:26,825 --> 00:42:27,325
pornography

1234
00:42:27,704 --> 00:42:30,105
is not something that I say nobody should

1235
00:42:30,105 --> 00:42:31,864
have it. It's like alcohol and other things.

1236
00:42:31,864 --> 00:42:33,385
Some people can manage it just fine, some

1237
00:42:33,385 --> 00:42:34,204
people can't.

1238
00:42:34,585 --> 00:42:36,605
But it's not something we should be letting

1239
00:42:36,980 --> 00:42:39,079
teenagers with malleable minds

1240
00:42:39,460 --> 00:42:42,579
have unfettered access to. And just having a

1241
00:42:42,579 --> 00:42:44,179
box that says, are you old enough

1242
00:42:44,659 --> 00:42:45,559
Yes or no.

1243
00:42:46,420 --> 00:42:48,839
Is is is not unfettered access.

1244
00:42:49,695 --> 00:42:52,095
And so we live in a culture that

1245
00:42:52,095 --> 00:42:54,095
sort of, we live in a culture that

1246
00:42:54,095 --> 00:42:56,114
kind of puts that stuff out there

1247
00:42:56,414 --> 00:42:58,994
that pulls people that may not have previously

1248
00:42:59,215 --> 00:42:59,715
struggled

1249
00:43:00,095 --> 00:43:00,835
with addiction

1250
00:43:01,230 --> 00:43:01,969
that direction.

1251
00:43:02,269 --> 00:43:04,769
Yeah. That was the other piece, which is

1252
00:43:04,829 --> 00:43:05,650
as addicts

1253
00:43:05,949 --> 00:43:08,030
in recovery, we have to be very aware

1254
00:43:08,030 --> 00:43:10,269
of what am I choosing to surround myself

1255
00:43:10,269 --> 00:43:10,769
with.

1256
00:43:11,309 --> 00:43:13,170
The the movies I choose to watch,

1257
00:43:13,724 --> 00:43:15,505
the the places I choose to go,

1258
00:43:15,965 --> 00:43:18,625
the you know, I'm I'm taking a conscious

1259
00:43:18,765 --> 00:43:21,325
effort in what I'm doing because there are

1260
00:43:21,325 --> 00:43:22,065
those pieces

1261
00:43:22,605 --> 00:43:24,204
that I can lean into that are gonna

1262
00:43:24,204 --> 00:43:25,805
feed my addiction and make it much more

1263
00:43:25,805 --> 00:43:27,425
difficult for me to walk this path.

1264
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,239
And there are those pieces that I can

1265
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:31,599
lean into that are gonna make it a

1266
00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:33,840
little bit easier. Mhmm. And so there there

1267
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,920
is a culture thing that pulls us in

1268
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:36,660
this direction.

1269
00:43:37,039 --> 00:43:38,579
There is a piece about,

1270
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,260
male status being attached to the young attractive

1271
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:42,820
woman

1272
00:43:43,265 --> 00:43:45,925
that we have to to grapple with. And

1273
00:43:46,305 --> 00:43:48,224
and God knows our culture does not have

1274
00:43:48,224 --> 00:43:51,344
good male star role stereotype role models out

1275
00:43:51,344 --> 00:43:51,844
there,

1276
00:43:52,545 --> 00:43:53,045
unfortunately.

1277
00:43:54,785 --> 00:43:56,625
And so I I guess I would agree

1278
00:43:56,625 --> 00:43:58,385
and say, yeah, that's part of what recovery

1279
00:43:58,385 --> 00:43:59,449
is. Recovery

1280
00:43:59,829 --> 00:44:01,589
is how am I taking those three steps

1281
00:44:01,589 --> 00:44:02,089
forward

1282
00:44:02,949 --> 00:44:05,030
to manage the three steps that are gonna

1283
00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:07,050
get pull pull against me.

1284
00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:09,829
Not because I'm I'm doing anything wrong, but

1285
00:44:09,829 --> 00:44:10,489
just because

1286
00:44:10,789 --> 00:44:13,644
that's my culture. Mhmm. Or that's the world

1287
00:44:13,644 --> 00:44:16,045
at large, or that's just the stuff that

1288
00:44:16,045 --> 00:44:18,525
the universe threw at me today. Mhmm. Yeah.

1289
00:44:18,525 --> 00:44:20,364
Well said. Thanks for speaking to that. Jeannie,

1290
00:44:20,364 --> 00:44:21,184
how about you?

1291
00:44:21,484 --> 00:44:22,684
Yeah. I I'm,

1292
00:44:23,005 --> 00:44:25,424
so those remember those three phases of treatment?

1293
00:44:26,010 --> 00:44:28,489
Get sober, learn to stay sober. How'd you

1294
00:44:28,489 --> 00:44:30,250
come here in the first place? I feel

1295
00:44:30,250 --> 00:44:32,090
like what you're talking about is that middle

1296
00:44:32,090 --> 00:44:34,969
phase. How to stay sober or how to

1297
00:44:34,969 --> 00:44:37,050
achieve sobriety, but how to stay sober in

1298
00:44:37,050 --> 00:44:38,590
such a sexualized world

1299
00:44:39,335 --> 00:44:41,255
where you're driving down the freeway and the

1300
00:44:41,255 --> 00:44:43,974
billboard has whatever on it. You know? There's

1301
00:44:43,974 --> 00:44:45,034
a lot of objectification

1302
00:44:45,414 --> 00:44:46,795
in this, society.

1303
00:44:47,574 --> 00:44:49,034
And where is objectification

1304
00:44:49,574 --> 00:44:51,194
crossing the line to attraction?

1305
00:44:51,650 --> 00:44:53,829
Yeah. Because I also don't want to pathologize

1306
00:44:54,130 --> 00:44:54,630
natural,

1307
00:44:55,809 --> 00:44:58,390
attraction that we have in our sexuality.

1308
00:44:59,250 --> 00:45:01,410
But where is the line between attraction and

1309
00:45:01,410 --> 00:45:01,910
objectification?

1310
00:45:02,610 --> 00:45:04,849
And where is the line between objectification and

1311
00:45:04,849 --> 00:45:07,394
voyeurism? And where is you know? So I

1312
00:45:07,394 --> 00:45:08,375
think it's hard.

1313
00:45:08,835 --> 00:45:09,894
I think it's hard

1314
00:45:10,434 --> 00:45:11,255
that when

1315
00:45:11,635 --> 00:45:12,934
you've got media

1316
00:45:13,235 --> 00:45:14,695
that is so sexual

1317
00:45:15,155 --> 00:45:16,375
visually sexual,

1318
00:45:17,235 --> 00:45:19,315
and you're watching a TV show or a

1319
00:45:19,315 --> 00:45:21,815
movie and suddenly the characters are having sex.

1320
00:45:23,219 --> 00:45:25,639
You know, we teach our folks

1321
00:45:26,099 --> 00:45:27,639
how to fast forward

1322
00:45:28,179 --> 00:45:30,619
or mute or that's a really great time

1323
00:45:30,619 --> 00:45:31,480
to get a snack

1324
00:45:31,780 --> 00:45:34,360
or, you know, to to accommodate

1325
00:45:34,739 --> 00:45:37,155
and to modify one's behavior so that they

1326
00:45:39,315 --> 00:45:41,335
But that's the how do I stay sober

1327
00:45:41,715 --> 00:45:43,494
thing of of good

1328
00:45:43,875 --> 00:45:44,934
recovery work.

1329
00:45:45,474 --> 00:45:45,974
Again,

1330
00:45:46,675 --> 00:45:48,215
getting sober is essential,

1331
00:45:49,074 --> 00:45:51,155
and then how do I live differently is

1332
00:45:51,155 --> 00:45:53,630
the recovery part. Yeah. What you what you

1333
00:45:53,630 --> 00:45:54,930
guys are both saying is,

1334
00:45:55,390 --> 00:45:58,190
so make the choice. I mean, like Well,

1335
00:45:58,190 --> 00:46:00,030
I'm saying I'm not gonna say so because

1336
00:46:00,030 --> 00:46:01,950
that sounds very flippant for me, and I

1337
00:46:01,950 --> 00:46:04,430
know it's hard. Right. I'm gonna say there

1338
00:46:04,430 --> 00:46:07,170
are ways around this. Sure. Sure. Ways protect.

1339
00:46:07,724 --> 00:46:09,405
See, I'm a good problem solver too here.

1340
00:46:09,405 --> 00:46:09,905
So

1341
00:46:10,445 --> 00:46:12,525
I'm always No. I I I appreciate that

1342
00:46:12,525 --> 00:46:14,125
because it is. It's a choice. I mean,

1343
00:46:14,125 --> 00:46:15,724
it's not, you know, we're not we're not

1344
00:46:15,724 --> 00:46:17,724
victims of this. You know, you can decide,

1345
00:46:17,724 --> 00:46:19,505
you know, normal I always say that normal

1346
00:46:19,565 --> 00:46:22,070
normal is what people made normal. Normal doesn't

1347
00:46:22,070 --> 00:46:23,269
mean it was good or that it should

1348
00:46:23,269 --> 00:46:24,710
be normal. It just means that a lot

1349
00:46:24,710 --> 00:46:25,989
of people are doing it.

1350
00:46:26,309 --> 00:46:28,409
Guys, this was this was a great conversation.

1351
00:46:28,469 --> 00:46:28,969
I,

1352
00:46:29,750 --> 00:46:31,349
I'm luckily that I'm gonna be able to

1353
00:46:31,349 --> 00:46:32,550
bump into you guys. Me get both. You

1354
00:46:32,550 --> 00:46:33,750
guys are gonna be in Nashville too. My

1355
00:46:33,750 --> 00:46:34,949
wife, you'll be able to meet my wife

1356
00:46:34,949 --> 00:46:36,170
and I out there as well.

1357
00:46:36,974 --> 00:46:38,894
So, if people are going to buy the

1358
00:46:38,894 --> 00:46:40,974
book, get ahold of you guys, what are

1359
00:46:40,974 --> 00:46:43,454
their options? Are you, where are you licensed?

1360
00:46:43,454 --> 00:46:45,075
How do they how do they get into

1361
00:46:45,135 --> 00:46:46,914
your world so that they can get help?

1362
00:46:47,135 --> 00:46:48,494
Well, if they can find the book, which

1363
00:46:48,494 --> 00:46:50,015
I'm not sure we actually said the name

1364
00:46:50,015 --> 00:46:51,315
of, and and so the

1365
00:46:51,780 --> 00:46:52,280
the

1366
00:46:53,699 --> 00:46:56,760
the book is called Finding the Way Through,

1367
00:46:57,140 --> 00:46:59,880
a Workbook for Sex and Pornography Addiction,

1368
00:47:00,340 --> 00:47:02,440
Sobriety Recovery, and Partner Sensitivity.

1369
00:47:02,980 --> 00:47:04,440
You can find it on Amazon.

1370
00:47:06,194 --> 00:47:07,335
It's available there.

1371
00:47:07,875 --> 00:47:10,275
Like, I feel really, really, really good about

1372
00:47:10,275 --> 00:47:13,154
the book. Okay. Willow Tree Counseling, we're based

1373
00:47:13,154 --> 00:47:15,494
in Northern California in Sonoma County.

1374
00:47:16,849 --> 00:47:18,230
You can work with,

1375
00:47:19,409 --> 00:47:20,949
any of our licensed clinicians,

1376
00:47:21,890 --> 00:47:23,829
if you're based in California.

1377
00:47:24,769 --> 00:47:27,170
If you're outside California, we can't work with

1378
00:47:27,170 --> 00:47:29,030
you as a clinician, but we have coaches,

1379
00:47:29,730 --> 00:47:31,570
who are able to work outside the state

1380
00:47:31,570 --> 00:47:32,070
lines

1381
00:47:32,405 --> 00:47:34,585
and, are able to work with people,

1382
00:47:35,605 --> 00:47:38,025
if you're outside of California, you want that.

1383
00:47:38,244 --> 00:47:39,844
I always tell them, hey. When in when

1384
00:47:39,844 --> 00:47:41,144
in doubt, reach out.

1385
00:47:41,445 --> 00:47:43,844
Yeah. Especially to a couple like this, you

1386
00:47:43,844 --> 00:47:45,065
guys, for everybody listening.

1387
00:47:46,329 --> 00:47:47,609
You know, they're gonna take care of you.

1388
00:47:47,609 --> 00:47:49,050
They're gonna point you in the right direction.

1389
00:47:49,050 --> 00:47:50,570
You know, not not I always say, it

1390
00:47:50,570 --> 00:47:52,329
doesn't matter. Like, if you're, oh, where are

1391
00:47:52,329 --> 00:47:54,170
they? Just pick up the phone, call. You

1392
00:47:54,170 --> 00:47:56,250
know, everybody in this field, I have find

1393
00:47:56,409 --> 00:47:59,289
I found cares so deeply about your recovery

1394
00:47:59,289 --> 00:48:00,809
that they're gonna help you. They're gonna point

1395
00:48:00,809 --> 00:48:02,704
you in the right direction. Hey. Thanks for

1396
00:48:02,704 --> 00:48:04,144
you two showing up. I love this. This

1397
00:48:04,144 --> 00:48:05,744
was great. Oh, you're welcome. Great. Thanks for

1398
00:48:05,744 --> 00:48:06,724
having us, Holland.

1399
00:48:08,304 --> 00:48:10,465
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1400
00:48:10,465 --> 00:48:12,224
are a high achiever with the sex addiction

1401
00:48:12,224 --> 00:48:13,905
and you're looking for a recovery group full

1402
00:48:13,905 --> 00:48:17,079
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1403
00:48:17,079 --> 00:48:19,880
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1404
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,179
using four day retreats,

1405
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,300
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1406
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,519
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1407
00:48:26,519 --> 00:48:28,445
save your marriage, go to our website and

1408
00:48:28,445 --> 00:48:30,765
fill out an application. If you enjoyed this

1409
00:48:30,765 --> 00:48:33,005
episode, please pass it along to a friend

1410
00:48:33,005 --> 00:48:34,925
in recovery who would benefit from listening. It

1411
00:48:34,925 --> 00:48:36,765
is my mission to get this information out

1412
00:48:36,765 --> 00:48:39,164
to as many high achievers as possible, and

1413
00:48:39,164 --> 00:48:40,784
I can't do it without your help.