1
00:00:00.240 –> 00:00:02.000
– And so they have to learn those skills

2
00:00:02.000 –> 00:00:03.939
– of of empathy and understanding

3
00:00:04.559 –> 00:00:05.940
– while at the same time

4
00:00:06.480 –> 00:00:08.559
– not taking on the identity as the one

5
00:00:08.559 –> 00:00:10.019
– down position in the relationship

6
00:00:10.719 –> 00:00:11.219
– forever

7
00:00:11.519 –> 00:00:12.019
– because

8
00:00:12.400 –> 00:00:15.435
– that destines the relationship to never being able

9
00:00:15.435 –> 00:00:17.195
– to go beyond a a certain point. And

10
00:00:17.195 –> 00:00:19.375
– the certain point that those couples get to

11
00:00:19.755 –> 00:00:22.015
– is what they would call safety,

12
00:00:22.475 –> 00:00:23.535
– but it sucks.

13
00:00:26.154 –> 00:00:28.255
– You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

14
00:00:28.315 –> 00:00:31.560
– for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

15
00:00:31.940 –> 00:00:34.500
– This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

16
00:00:34.500 –> 00:00:35.479
– recovery principles

17
00:00:35.859 –> 00:00:38.440
– specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

18
00:00:38.820 –> 00:00:41.140
– I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

19
00:00:41.140 –> 00:00:43.619
– Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

20
00:00:43.619 –> 00:00:46.135
– men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

21
00:00:46.135 –> 00:00:48.375
– more information about joining our group or attending

22
00:00:48.375 –> 00:00:51.435
– our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

23
00:00:51.495 –> 00:00:53.594
– And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

24
00:00:55.815 –> 00:00:57.975
– Research came out showing that men who self

25
00:00:57.975 –> 00:01:01.940
– identify as an addict actually recover slower than

26
00:01:01.940 –> 00:01:04.659
– men who do not self identify as an

27
00:01:04.659 –> 00:01:06.340
– addict. And what we’re talking about here is

28
00:01:06.340 –> 00:01:06.840
– identity.

29
00:01:07.219 –> 00:01:09.060
– And this isn’t just limited to sex addicts

30
00:01:09.060 –> 00:01:11.140
– and porn addicts. This is also applies to

31
00:01:11.140 –> 00:01:13.954
– someone, with the title of betrayed partner. Right?

32
00:01:13.954 –> 00:01:16.055
– And there’s a big difference between a category

33
00:01:16.194 –> 00:01:18.275
– or a genre or a label as it’s

34
00:01:18.275 –> 00:01:20.915
– used to, guide you through the therapeutic process

35
00:01:20.915 –> 00:01:24.435
– versus taking something on as your identity. And

36
00:01:24.435 –> 00:01:26.480
– I’m joined in this episode by Tyler Patrick.

37
00:01:26.480 –> 00:01:28.000
– Tyler Patrick, many of you have probably heard

38
00:01:28.000 –> 00:01:29.760
– the name before for those of you who

39
00:01:29.760 –> 00:01:32.400
– have listened to the Therapy Brothers podcast where,

40
00:01:32.560 –> 00:01:34.320
– him and his brother, host a podcast where

41
00:01:34.320 –> 00:01:36.799
– they talk about infidelity and betrayal trauma. And

42
00:01:36.799 –> 00:01:39.359
– in this episode, we talk about how taking

43
00:01:39.359 –> 00:01:41.540
– on an identity can potentially

44
00:01:41.995 –> 00:01:43.614
– slow down your recovery.

45
00:01:44.314 –> 00:01:46.635
– Tyler, here we are. Excited for this topic

46
00:01:46.635 –> 00:01:48.075
– because it’s been a hot one in my

47
00:01:48.075 –> 00:01:49.754
– groups. But before we get in, I kinda

48
00:01:49.754 –> 00:01:51.594
– want the audience, for those who haven’t listened

49
00:01:51.594 –> 00:01:52.494
– to your podcast,

50
00:01:53.114 –> 00:01:54.569
– or know much about kind of the work

51
00:01:54.569 –> 00:01:56.250
– that you guys do, can you just introduce

52
00:01:56.250 –> 00:01:57.769
– yourself real quick and and give them a

53
00:01:57.769 –> 00:01:59.930
– little story as to how you guys got

54
00:01:59.930 –> 00:02:01.769
– into this work and why it matters and

55
00:02:01.769 –> 00:02:03.450
– what you guys do? Yeah. You bet, man.

56
00:02:03.450 –> 00:02:04.969
– Thanks for we’re so glad to be here

57
00:02:04.969 –> 00:02:06.810
– with you today. Yeah. So so Brandon and

58
00:02:06.810 –> 00:02:08.564
– I Brandon’s my brother. We’re the cohost of

59
00:02:08.564 –> 00:02:11.205
– the Therapy Brothers podcast, and we kind of

60
00:02:11.205 –> 00:02:12.965
– got into it from different angles. Brandon got

61
00:02:12.965 –> 00:02:14.645
– into it from a business kind of angle.

62
00:02:14.645 –> 00:02:16.485
– He’s an economics major, and then he went

63
00:02:16.485 –> 00:02:17.764
– to school, and he was looking around and

64
00:02:17.764 –> 00:02:19.844
– going, man, what what needs are there that

65
00:02:19.844 –> 00:02:21.444
– I could be good at? And then he

66
00:02:21.444 –> 00:02:23.610
– he was kind of led into the therapy

67
00:02:24.150 –> 00:02:26.409
– kind of world, and he got an LCSW.

68
00:02:26.870 –> 00:02:28.069
– And at the same time, I was getting

69
00:02:28.069 –> 00:02:28.729
– my LMFT.

70
00:02:29.750 –> 00:02:31.349
– And what he didn’t know was that I

71
00:02:31.349 –> 00:02:32.729
– was going through my own

72
00:02:33.110 –> 00:02:35.669
– my own hell, my own recovery process where

73
00:02:35.669 –> 00:02:37.764
– I had I am the betrayer if you

74
00:02:37.764 –> 00:02:39.284
– wanna use that word. I know you don’t

75
00:02:39.284 –> 00:02:41.284
– like using that word. And so I was

76
00:02:41.284 –> 00:02:43.764
– doing my own work silently behind the scenes

77
00:02:43.764 –> 00:02:45.125
– without him knowing. And then he called me

78
00:02:45.125 –> 00:02:46.485
– one day and was like, hey, Tyler. We

79
00:02:46.485 –> 00:02:48.985
– need to niche into this specific thing because

80
00:02:49.490 –> 00:02:51.889
– nobody’s really touching it. There’s only this one

81
00:02:51.889 –> 00:02:53.969
– kind of way that I’m being trained right

82
00:02:53.969 –> 00:02:55.409
– now, and I think that there’s a real

83
00:02:55.409 –> 00:02:57.270
– a real need in a real place. So

84
00:02:57.810 –> 00:02:59.810
– we came together and started doing this work,

85
00:02:59.810 –> 00:03:01.009
– and now we do a show where we

86
00:03:01.009 –> 00:03:03.250
– just talk to real people about their own

87
00:03:03.250 –> 00:03:05.215
– real stuff and try to help them. So

88
00:03:05.215 –> 00:03:06.814
– that’s what we do. Yeah. And it’s and

89
00:03:06.814 –> 00:03:08.995
– it’s the for the audience, it’s the Therapy

90
00:03:09.055 –> 00:03:11.294
– Brothers podcast. And, yeah, you guys have done,

91
00:03:11.854 –> 00:03:12.974
– you guys have done a pretty good job.

92
00:03:12.974 –> 00:03:15.294
– The show the show’s grown pretty tremendously. So,

93
00:03:15.614 –> 00:03:17.614
– congratulations with that. So yeah. Thanks, man. Now

94
00:03:17.614 –> 00:03:19.500
– is that and just for the audience, is

95
00:03:19.500 –> 00:03:20.240
– it infidelity

96
00:03:20.699 –> 00:03:22.540
– specific? Just talk to them about what what

97
00:03:22.540 –> 00:03:24.020
– you guys talk about on the show. Yeah.

98
00:03:24.020 –> 00:03:25.580
– I would say I would say almost our

99
00:03:25.580 –> 00:03:28.300
– whole population is couples who are trying to

100
00:03:28.300 –> 00:03:29.659
– figure out whether or not they’re gonna stay

101
00:03:29.659 –> 00:03:32.540
– together after infidelity or cheating or it crosses

102
00:03:32.540 –> 00:03:34.460
– into the realm of sexual addiction stuff too,

103
00:03:34.460 –> 00:03:37.044
– but but it’s really about overcoming infidelity. Yeah.

104
00:03:37.044 –> 00:03:38.164
– And I just wanted to clear that up.

105
00:03:38.164 –> 00:03:39.604
– So for the for the listeners, because at

106
00:03:39.604 –> 00:03:40.884
– least the at least the episodes I have

107
00:03:40.884 –> 00:03:42.164
– listened to, which I’ve listened to a good

108
00:03:42.164 –> 00:03:43.844
– amount of them. Yeah. I wouldn’t say it’s

109
00:03:43.844 –> 00:03:44.584
– your traditional

110
00:03:45.044 –> 00:03:48.264
– sex addiction podcast. It’s more, it it’s definitely

111
00:03:48.485 –> 00:03:48.985
– a,

112
00:03:49.780 –> 00:03:50.280
– relational

113
00:03:50.580 –> 00:03:53.300
– dynamic during, after, and fidelity. And I think

114
00:03:53.300 –> 00:03:54.360
– for my population,

115
00:03:54.979 –> 00:03:57.139
– my guys aren’t necessarily addicted. I would say

116
00:03:57.139 –> 00:03:59.080
– most of them fall into a compulsive category.

117
00:03:59.300 –> 00:04:01.620
– I think it’s a fun I actually like

118
00:04:01.620 –> 00:04:03.699
– your podcast because I do think for my

119
00:04:03.699 –> 00:04:04.199
– guys,

120
00:04:04.585 –> 00:04:06.985
– I think having so much emphasis on the

121
00:04:06.985 –> 00:04:07.485
– addiction

122
00:04:08.104 –> 00:04:11.064
– sometimes is is, unnecessary. It’s, you know, I

123
00:04:11.064 –> 00:04:12.764
– think looking at it just as infidelity,

124
00:04:13.145 –> 00:04:14.824
– I think sometimes is better. I think I

125
00:04:14.824 –> 00:04:17.740
– think again, you know me, anytime we pathologize

126
00:04:18.040 –> 00:04:20.040
– a problem and call it things, I don’t

127
00:04:20.040 –> 00:04:21.399
– think it helps. I actually think it makes

128
00:04:21.399 –> 00:04:23.480
– it worse, which bleeds us into what we

129
00:04:23.480 –> 00:04:26.040
– wanted to talk to today. So Tyler and

130
00:04:26.040 –> 00:04:28.120
– I were talking, I guess that was this

131
00:04:28.120 –> 00:04:30.154
– this week. And a topic that I’m in

132
00:04:30.154 –> 00:04:32.634
– ring really passionate about recently is the concept

133
00:04:32.634 –> 00:04:34.314
– of identity. Now not to get in and

134
00:04:34.314 –> 00:04:36.555
– it’s it’s a very it’s a very big

135
00:04:36.555 –> 00:04:38.714
– topic, but if I had to summarize it

136
00:04:38.714 –> 00:04:40.795
– for the listeners as it applies to sex

137
00:04:40.795 –> 00:04:43.295
– addiction and and and infidelity and betrayal,

138
00:04:43.819 –> 00:04:46.220
– Basically, the the concept of identity is it’s

139
00:04:46.220 –> 00:04:48.300
– it’s your sense of self. Okay? And a

140
00:04:48.300 –> 00:04:50.060
– lot of people don’t know that it’s a

141
00:04:50.060 –> 00:04:52.620
– concept, but it is a mental construct. It

142
00:04:52.620 –> 00:04:54.300
– just is, you know, when when a baby

143
00:04:54.300 –> 00:04:55.899
– is born, the baby does not know what

144
00:04:55.899 –> 00:04:57.180
– it is. It doesn’t care what it is.

145
00:04:57.180 –> 00:04:59.464
– Just put stuff in its mouth and makes

146
00:04:59.464 –> 00:05:01.625
– noises and it’s totally fine being that. It’s

147
00:05:01.625 –> 00:05:03.785
– not until I can’t remember what what age,

148
00:05:03.785 –> 00:05:06.105
– but basically, they start to form the sense

149
00:05:06.105 –> 00:05:06.845
– of identity

150
00:05:07.145 –> 00:05:09.464
– as as they start growing up. And then

151
00:05:09.464 –> 00:05:11.305
– they have this idea of, oh, I am

152
00:05:11.305 –> 00:05:13.889
– shy. Oh, I am fat. I am kids

153
00:05:13.889 –> 00:05:15.730
– don’t like me. And so as we start

154
00:05:15.730 –> 00:05:17.650
– to develop a story about ourselves. So where

155
00:05:17.650 –> 00:05:18.949
– I’m going with this is

156
00:05:19.330 –> 00:05:21.490
– this happens also through our lives and our

157
00:05:21.490 –> 00:05:24.529
– adulthood. Right? We’re we’re collecting data from our

158
00:05:24.529 –> 00:05:25.589
– tribe society,

159
00:05:25.954 –> 00:05:28.035
– and that data matters a lot. As travel

160
00:05:28.035 –> 00:05:29.954
– creatures, what they think of us and what

161
00:05:29.954 –> 00:05:30.935
– they call us

162
00:05:31.555 –> 00:05:34.535
– really, really matters. It’s why I’m so sensitive

163
00:05:34.754 –> 00:05:36.595
– around words that are used. It’s why at

164
00:05:36.595 –> 00:05:38.915
– twelve step, the guys always kinda looked at

165
00:05:38.915 –> 00:05:41.259
– me funny, some some with annoyance. When it

166
00:05:41.259 –> 00:05:43.339
– came around, everyone said, hey. I’m Bill. I’m

167
00:05:43.339 –> 00:05:44.860
– a sex addict. Hey. I’m Tom. I’m a

168
00:05:44.860 –> 00:05:46.459
– sex addict. We come to my turn, and

169
00:05:46.459 –> 00:05:47.360
– I would say,

170
00:05:47.740 –> 00:05:50.139
– hi. I’m Roland. Happy to be here because

171
00:05:50.139 –> 00:05:51.740
– I am Roland. And that’s what I am,

172
00:05:51.740 –> 00:05:53.740
– and I’m I’m I’m Roland. I’m not anything

173
00:05:53.740 –> 00:05:55.819
– other than that. So, Tyler, before we get

174
00:05:55.819 –> 00:05:56.060
– into

175
00:05:56.834 –> 00:05:58.834
– really, I wanna really focus on kind of

176
00:05:58.834 –> 00:06:01.634
– the harm of identity when you’re in recovery

177
00:06:01.634 –> 00:06:03.235
– in general, I I I or therapy in

178
00:06:03.235 –> 00:06:04.514
– general. I wouldn’t even say this is a

179
00:06:04.514 –> 00:06:06.995
– sex solution specific thing or infidelity specific thing.

180
00:06:06.995 –> 00:06:09.414
– I think anytime that you’re going to therapy,

181
00:06:09.899 –> 00:06:12.699
– the sensitive nature of that work is very

182
00:06:12.699 –> 00:06:15.420
– identity driven work. But anything that I left

183
00:06:15.420 –> 00:06:18.220
– out in terms of defining identity so the

184
00:06:18.220 –> 00:06:20.060
– audience can kind of understand what we’re talking

185
00:06:20.060 –> 00:06:21.580
– about before we get into the kind of

186
00:06:21.580 –> 00:06:23.805
– sex edition portrayal dynamic of it? No. I

187
00:06:23.805 –> 00:06:25.564
– think, I think you’re spot on. The one

188
00:06:25.564 –> 00:06:27.085
– thing that I would say is you we’re

189
00:06:27.085 –> 00:06:28.845
– probably already familiar with this, but there’s some

190
00:06:28.845 –> 00:06:32.045
– pretty new research out that that talks about

191
00:06:32.045 –> 00:06:33.884
– the way that we label ourselves in the

192
00:06:33.884 –> 00:06:34.944
– recovery process.

193
00:06:35.860 –> 00:06:38.259
– And the new research is saying that those

194
00:06:38.259 –> 00:06:39.480
– who label themselves

195
00:06:39.860 –> 00:06:40.759
– as addicts

196
00:06:41.220 –> 00:06:41.960
– tend to

197
00:06:42.660 –> 00:06:43.160
– recover

198
00:06:43.540 –> 00:06:45.860
– less quickly and less effectively than those who

199
00:06:45.860 –> 00:06:48.660
– don’t. And so there’s something to that what

200
00:06:48.660 –> 00:06:51.274
– what you’re talking about. If I see myself

201
00:06:51.415 –> 00:06:54.295
– as blank, that almost sets in stone what

202
00:06:54.295 –> 00:06:56.295
– that then means, and all of us have

203
00:06:56.295 –> 00:06:58.214
– different ideas of what an addict is, I

204
00:06:58.214 –> 00:06:59.814
– guess. But it’s most of us have a

205
00:06:59.814 –> 00:07:02.455
– negative connotation about it. And then we kind

206
00:07:02.455 –> 00:07:04.269
– of tend to prove ourselves right based off

207
00:07:04.269 –> 00:07:06.990
– of what we’ve accepted as pieces of our

208
00:07:06.990 –> 00:07:09.470
– our identity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s a

209
00:07:09.629 –> 00:07:11.389
– the the way I see it is I

210
00:07:11.389 –> 00:07:12.930
– almost see men recovering

211
00:07:13.389 –> 00:07:13.889
– inside

212
00:07:14.269 –> 00:07:16.589
– of the identity. And so in the way,

213
00:07:16.589 –> 00:07:18.964
– you can’t escape it. Right? So, like, if

214
00:07:18.964 –> 00:07:21.944
– you are a sex addict, you’re a betrayer,

215
00:07:22.004 –> 00:07:24.185
– an abuser, you are a liar,

216
00:07:24.644 –> 00:07:26.884
– then it’s like you recover and you’re doing

217
00:07:26.884 –> 00:07:28.805
– the work, but you’re doing it inside of

218
00:07:28.805 –> 00:07:31.204
– that identity. So in many ways, you’re not

219
00:07:31.204 –> 00:07:31.704
– recovering

220
00:07:32.230 –> 00:07:33.589
– in this in the sense of that word.

221
00:07:33.589 –> 00:07:35.290
– Right? A recovery would be

222
00:07:35.670 –> 00:07:39.029
– escaping and leaving behind that identity and returning

223
00:07:39.029 –> 00:07:41.210
– back, ideally, a a place of authenticity,

224
00:07:41.589 –> 00:07:44.230
– something that feels more integrity driven. Right? And

225
00:07:44.230 –> 00:07:46.745
– so, again, I think that’s the danger of

226
00:07:46.745 –> 00:07:50.024
– pathologizing and labels is, you know, are can

227
00:07:50.024 –> 00:07:52.185
– you escape it? Right? Can you escape this

228
00:07:52.185 –> 00:07:53.944
– thing that you’ve been assigned? And and just

229
00:07:53.944 –> 00:07:55.464
– to for the high achieving men, listen to

230
00:07:55.464 –> 00:07:57.064
– this guys. This is, you know, another way

231
00:07:57.064 –> 00:07:59.120
– to kind of just leave the kind of

232
00:07:59.120 –> 00:08:01.199
– therapy addiction world for a second. Think about

233
00:08:01.199 –> 00:08:03.519
– other aspects of this. Right? You are a

234
00:08:03.519 –> 00:08:06.240
– football you’re alignment. You’re our best alignment. You’re

235
00:08:06.240 –> 00:08:08.660
– the run the star running back. You are

236
00:08:08.800 –> 00:08:09.459
– the valedictorian.

237
00:08:10.079 –> 00:08:12.355
– You are whatever you’ve been assigned. You’re the

238
00:08:12.355 –> 00:08:14.915
– class clown. You’re the guy who barely skates

239
00:08:14.915 –> 00:08:17.235
– through classes and gets c’s and d’s and

240
00:08:17.235 –> 00:08:20.595
– escape barely escapes failing. Right? Whatever whatever role

241
00:08:20.595 –> 00:08:22.435
– has been assigned to you, I bet you

242
00:08:22.435 –> 00:08:24.295
– you guys can think back to your life

243
00:08:24.355 –> 00:08:25.735
– where you have this pressure

244
00:08:26.139 –> 00:08:28.300
– that you feel to be, oh, everyone always

245
00:08:28.300 –> 00:08:30.699
– expects me to acquire three to four apartment

246
00:08:30.699 –> 00:08:32.620
– complexes every year. So now even though you

247
00:08:32.620 –> 00:08:34.399
– really don’t wanna keep growing your portfolio,

248
00:08:34.860 –> 00:08:36.779
– it’s the only thing that everybody knows you

249
00:08:36.779 –> 00:08:39.100
– as. So here you are collecting real estate

250
00:08:39.100 –> 00:08:40.865
– because that’s, you know, in your mind, that’s

251
00:08:40.865 –> 00:08:42.785
– what everybody expects of you is to is

252
00:08:42.785 –> 00:08:44.785
– to continue growing. So just that was another

253
00:08:44.785 –> 00:08:46.865
– way to kind of look at identity is

254
00:08:46.865 –> 00:08:49.424
– basically people tell you something, you’ve taken it

255
00:08:49.424 –> 00:08:51.184
– on, and now it defines your actions, defines

256
00:08:51.184 –> 00:08:52.705
– how you think. Yeah. In a sense, what

257
00:08:52.705 –> 00:08:54.570
– I’m hearing you say, Roland, is is that

258
00:08:54.570 –> 00:08:56.590
– we need to be careful with which identities

259
00:08:56.649 –> 00:08:59.129
– are actually authentic to us because when we

260
00:08:59.129 –> 00:09:01.529
– accept any of those labels as part of

261
00:09:01.529 –> 00:09:02.830
– our identity, they become,

262
00:09:03.289 –> 00:09:05.070
– in some ways, the prison walls,

263
00:09:06.090 –> 00:09:07.230
– in which we operate.

264
00:09:07.654 –> 00:09:09.575
– Right? Yes. Yes. I have a saying in

265
00:09:09.575 –> 00:09:11.654
– our program. I always say you’ll never outpace

266
00:09:11.654 –> 00:09:13.735
– your identity. I also say, you know, identity

267
00:09:13.735 –> 00:09:14.554
– is the gatekeeper.

268
00:09:15.014 –> 00:09:16.455
– I mean, really, it’s a it’s it’s what

269
00:09:16.455 –> 00:09:18.254
– you are. The power of I am. There’s

270
00:09:18.254 –> 00:09:19.815
– a reason that there’s a book that talks

271
00:09:19.815 –> 00:09:21.575
– about that. The biggest power that we have.

272
00:09:21.575 –> 00:09:24.110
– Right? I am really dictates, what will we

273
00:09:24.110 –> 00:09:25.149
– do and how we show up in the

274
00:09:25.149 –> 00:09:26.350
– world and really kind of all of our

275
00:09:26.350 –> 00:09:28.029
– actions and and and in many ways, our

276
00:09:28.029 –> 00:09:30.029
– thoughts that follow. Right? You’ll be confined to

277
00:09:30.029 –> 00:09:32.670
– that. So let’s dive into why what this

278
00:09:32.670 –> 00:09:35.230
– means for the dynamic. So, the the reason

279
00:09:35.230 –> 00:09:37.164
– I feel so passionate about this is I

280
00:09:37.245 –> 00:09:39.164
– I’m not sure if you all noticed, but

281
00:09:39.164 –> 00:09:42.044
– despite our efforts, I wouldn’t say that there’s,

282
00:09:42.285 –> 00:09:44.205
– you know, the relapse rate’s high. Let’s just

283
00:09:44.205 –> 00:09:45.565
– call it what it is. The relapse rate

284
00:09:45.565 –> 00:09:47.804
– is high. I would say eighty to ninety

285
00:09:47.804 –> 00:09:49.589
– percent of the guys who call me, this

286
00:09:49.589 –> 00:09:51.350
– is their this is their relapse. This is

287
00:09:51.350 –> 00:09:53.589
– their second discovery. This is their second round.

288
00:09:53.589 –> 00:09:55.669
– Right? They’re now asking their wife for a

289
00:09:55.669 –> 00:09:58.629
– third chance. Okay? So let’s call that out.

290
00:09:58.629 –> 00:10:00.309
– You know, the more uncomfortable one and I

291
00:10:00.389 –> 00:10:01.829
– again, I hate saying this because I don’t

292
00:10:01.829 –> 00:10:04.809
– wanna manifest something into people’s lives, but

293
00:10:05.235 –> 00:10:07.154
– couples are have a really difficult time thriving

294
00:10:07.154 –> 00:10:10.274
– after this. There’s this narrative that, you’ll recover

295
00:10:10.274 –> 00:10:12.195
– and there’s this common saying that, the new

296
00:10:12.195 –> 00:10:13.714
– marriage you’re gonna build be better than the

297
00:10:13.714 –> 00:10:15.554
– old marriage. I remember when I got into

298
00:10:15.554 –> 00:10:17.634
– recovery, I started meeting couples who were deeper

299
00:10:17.634 –> 00:10:19.750
– into this, three years, four years, five years.

300
00:10:19.750 –> 00:10:21.110
– So I’m like, hey. Where where are these

301
00:10:21.110 –> 00:10:23.910
– happy ones everyone’s talking about? Right? You know,

302
00:10:23.910 –> 00:10:25.750
– I I hear rumors of these, but I

303
00:10:25.750 –> 00:10:27.350
– haven’t seen to to I haven’t seen to

304
00:10:27.350 –> 00:10:28.790
– be able to find get my find one.

305
00:10:28.790 –> 00:10:30.804
– And, you know, I think, Tyler, as I’ve

306
00:10:30.804 –> 00:10:32.725
– hung around, what I really see is a

307
00:10:32.725 –> 00:10:34.804
– massive barrier. Now I’m reflecting on my wife

308
00:10:34.804 –> 00:10:37.445
– and I and our experience through this as

309
00:10:37.445 –> 00:10:39.764
– well. With my wife and I, it wasn’t

310
00:10:39.764 –> 00:10:41.144
– until we left behind

311
00:10:42.164 –> 00:10:44.164
– the labels. She she you know, I am

312
00:10:44.164 –> 00:10:46.024
– not a betrayed partner anymore.

313
00:10:46.460 –> 00:10:48.220
– I am who I I am me. And

314
00:10:48.220 –> 00:10:49.899
– then for me, I am not a sex

315
00:10:49.899 –> 00:10:51.840
– addict or a compulsive sexual

316
00:10:52.220 –> 00:10:52.720
– individual

317
00:10:53.179 –> 00:10:54.940
– or for somebody with an intimacy. I’m I’m

318
00:10:54.940 –> 00:10:56.779
– rolling. And I just have the things that

319
00:10:56.779 –> 00:10:57.899
– I have, and I have the wife I

320
00:10:57.899 –> 00:10:58.940
– have, and I have the life I have.

321
00:10:58.940 –> 00:11:00.299
– And it was when we really stepped into

322
00:11:00.299 –> 00:11:02.884
– just being humans again. Gosh. Everything just flourished.

323
00:11:02.884 –> 00:11:03.924
– And I want you to speak to that

324
00:11:03.924 –> 00:11:05.764
– before we dive into kinda what people can

325
00:11:05.764 –> 00:11:07.365
– do about it. But, speak to that because

326
00:11:07.365 –> 00:11:09.144
– you’ve been affected by this as well personally.

327
00:11:09.365 –> 00:11:11.125
– Yeah. You bet. In fact, if it’s okay

328
00:11:11.125 –> 00:11:12.964
– with you, I’ll just use some of my

329
00:11:12.964 –> 00:11:14.964
– own story to illustrate some of the points

330
00:11:14.964 –> 00:11:16.904
– that you’re you’re bringing up here. So

331
00:11:17.450 –> 00:11:19.129
– this is something that I’ve been doing this

332
00:11:19.129 –> 00:11:21.149
– work for about twenty years, and I feel

333
00:11:21.210 –> 00:11:21.710
– like

334
00:11:22.250 –> 00:11:24.169
– you hit on something that that a lot

335
00:11:24.169 –> 00:11:26.009
– of people don’t hit on. And for me,

336
00:11:26.009 –> 00:11:27.690
– my own personal story was that when it

337
00:11:27.690 –> 00:11:28.669
– all broke loose,

338
00:11:29.049 –> 00:11:30.889
– it was that classical thing where I was

339
00:11:30.889 –> 00:11:31.389
– now

340
00:11:32.024 –> 00:11:34.024
– the addict. I was the person who was

341
00:11:34.024 –> 00:11:36.024
– never gonna be one who could be trusted

342
00:11:36.024 –> 00:11:37.784
– again. And and the truth is is I

343
00:11:37.784 –> 00:11:39.704
– blew my wife’s world up a little bit.

344
00:11:39.704 –> 00:11:41.704
– I with with my lying and my hiding,

345
00:11:41.704 –> 00:11:44.845
– and it rocked her world. And she struggled

346
00:11:44.985 –> 00:11:47.149
– a lot with trying to figure out trust,

347
00:11:47.149 –> 00:11:48.669
– and I would do everything I thought I

348
00:11:48.669 –> 00:11:50.429
– was supposed to do as a good boy

349
00:11:50.429 –> 00:11:52.269
– to make sure that she was never upset

350
00:11:52.269 –> 00:11:54.509
– again, that I’d bend over backwards to make

351
00:11:54.509 –> 00:11:56.269
– sure that I was managing her feelings for

352
00:11:56.269 –> 00:11:58.269
– her. And I thought I was building trust

353
00:11:58.269 –> 00:12:00.049
– the whole time. And and in reality,

354
00:12:00.875 –> 00:12:02.634
– she was resenting me more, and she was

355
00:12:02.634 –> 00:12:04.735
– seeing me as more weak and more small

356
00:12:04.954 –> 00:12:06.954
– the the more that I did it. And

357
00:12:06.954 –> 00:12:09.434
– she had a moment driving home from work

358
00:12:09.434 –> 00:12:11.855
– one day where she was just really obsessing

359
00:12:11.995 –> 00:12:13.995
– about how badly I’ve hurt her and how

360
00:12:13.995 –> 00:12:15.995
– terrible it was and how what a victim

361
00:12:15.995 –> 00:12:16.654
– she was.

362
00:12:17.090 –> 00:12:18.690
– And then for some reason, she had a

363
00:12:18.690 –> 00:12:20.769
– biblical story come into her mind that the

364
00:12:20.769 –> 00:12:22.610
– good Samaritan, and it hit her. And she

365
00:12:22.610 –> 00:12:24.529
– said, oh, wait a second. I’m one of

366
00:12:24.529 –> 00:12:26.290
– those people that walked right by the guy

367
00:12:26.290 –> 00:12:28.129
– who was beat up on the street. I’m

368
00:12:28.129 –> 00:12:30.290
– now currently part of the people beating him

369
00:12:30.290 –> 00:12:31.925
– up. And so she came into the house

370
00:12:31.925 –> 00:12:33.285
– that day, and I was still in my

371
00:12:33.285 –> 00:12:35.524
– victim mode. Like, oh, I suck so bad.

372
00:12:35.524 –> 00:12:37.605
– I was crumpled up in the shower, like,

373
00:12:37.605 –> 00:12:39.764
– being all emotional and crying. And she walked

374
00:12:39.764 –> 00:12:41.045
– in, and she grabbed me by the face,

375
00:12:41.045 –> 00:12:43.360
– and she said, hey, Tyler. Like, what you’ve

376
00:12:43.360 –> 00:12:45.200
– done to me has devastated me, and it’s

377
00:12:45.200 –> 00:12:46.559
– hurt me. And I can’t stay if you

378
00:12:46.559 –> 00:12:47.700
– keep doing these things.

379
00:12:48.080 –> 00:12:50.000
– But I think you’re a good man, and

380
00:12:50.000 –> 00:12:51.600
– I wanna stay if you can figure out

381
00:12:51.600 –> 00:12:54.179
– how to deal with this stuff. And, woah.

382
00:12:54.320 –> 00:12:56.865
– Like, there was, like, a total shift that

383
00:12:56.865 –> 00:12:59.105
– started to take place in the energy of

384
00:12:59.105 –> 00:13:01.024
– what we were doing. Right? I was it

385
00:13:01.024 –> 00:13:04.144
– was always this heavy, dark fear and shame

386
00:13:04.144 –> 00:13:04.965
– based energy,

387
00:13:05.504 –> 00:13:06.725
– and I started to realize

388
00:13:07.745 –> 00:13:10.384
– the my whole life has to change with

389
00:13:10.384 –> 00:13:12.600
– the energy with which I’m living. And I

390
00:13:12.600 –> 00:13:14.440
– had to start living with an energy of

391
00:13:14.440 –> 00:13:14.940
– possibility.

392
00:13:15.639 –> 00:13:17.320
– And then the language you’re using is the

393
00:13:17.320 –> 00:13:19.079
– language we use too, is moving from a

394
00:13:19.079 –> 00:13:20.679
– place of I’m not to a place of

395
00:13:20.679 –> 00:13:23.639
– I am and starting to accept the truth

396
00:13:23.639 –> 00:13:25.799
– of everything that I am, my weaknesses that

397
00:13:25.799 –> 00:13:27.500
– I’m gonna be willing to work on,

398
00:13:28.404 –> 00:13:30.404
– and and the things my wife was actually

399
00:13:30.404 –> 00:13:33.045
– married to a really good guy even before

400
00:13:33.045 –> 00:13:35.125
– d day, but I thought my good guy

401
00:13:35.125 –> 00:13:37.524
– was the the performance to protect from being

402
00:13:37.524 –> 00:13:38.884
– seen as the bad guy because I thought

403
00:13:38.884 –> 00:13:40.019
– I was the bad guy.

404
00:13:40.420 –> 00:13:42.420
– So speak to that, though, because there is

405
00:13:42.420 –> 00:13:42.920
– this

406
00:13:43.540 –> 00:13:46.740
– mantra within the sex addiction field and betrayal

407
00:13:46.740 –> 00:13:49.700
– trauma field that and the therapist certainly, especially

408
00:13:49.700 –> 00:13:52.340
– on podcast, and the therapist certainly contribute to

409
00:13:52.340 –> 00:13:53.860
– it and play into it. They say, oh,

410
00:13:53.860 –> 00:13:55.695
– the old marriage is debt. I’m sure you’ve

411
00:13:55.695 –> 00:13:57.215
– heard it. Right? It’s like, you know, she

412
00:13:57.215 –> 00:13:58.575
– wants nothing to do with that. And there’s

413
00:13:58.575 –> 00:14:01.295
– almost this, like, she’s right. The old marriage

414
00:14:01.295 –> 00:14:03.295
– was dead. The whole her whole life was

415
00:14:03.295 –> 00:14:05.475
– a lie. And I understand from the trauma

416
00:14:05.695 –> 00:14:07.215
– standpoint that that is what you know, my

417
00:14:07.215 –> 00:14:09.149
– my wife always said all that. Right? Not

418
00:14:09.149 –> 00:14:11.389
– not wearing my wedding ring, not celebrating the

419
00:14:11.389 –> 00:14:13.149
– anniversary, all this. But I want you, you

420
00:14:13.149 –> 00:14:14.910
– know, as a marriage and family therapist and

421
00:14:14.910 –> 00:14:17.570
– somebody in this space who works with couples

422
00:14:17.710 –> 00:14:19.149
– to speak to that a little bit because

423
00:14:19.149 –> 00:14:20.990
– at the end, I think I hear that

424
00:14:20.990 –> 00:14:23.964
– and from a trauma standpoint, it’s definitely something

425
00:14:24.504 –> 00:14:26.745
– that men need to learn to hold and

426
00:14:26.745 –> 00:14:28.524
– honor because that is their experience.

427
00:14:28.904 –> 00:14:30.904
– Right? Every everything’s a lie up to this

428
00:14:30.904 –> 00:14:32.345
– point. But I I want you to as

429
00:14:32.345 –> 00:14:34.264
– a therapist to come in here and, oh,

430
00:14:34.264 –> 00:14:36.204
– and speak to that a bit though because

431
00:14:36.424 –> 00:14:37.725
– if that’s the case,

432
00:14:38.159 –> 00:14:40.079
– the thing that always has not sat right

433
00:14:40.079 –> 00:14:40.740
– with me

434
00:14:41.279 –> 00:14:43.440
– is what effect does that now have then

435
00:14:43.440 –> 00:14:45.600
– on healing the marriage? Because if if the

436
00:14:45.600 –> 00:14:46.579
– marriage is

437
00:14:46.959 –> 00:14:49.440
– is for nothing and the whole thing was

438
00:14:49.440 –> 00:14:50.980
– a lie up to this point,

439
00:14:51.584 –> 00:14:53.424
– Again, I just I wonder the effect that

440
00:14:53.424 –> 00:14:55.345
– that has because I I again, I I

441
00:14:55.345 –> 00:14:57.584
– think I always ask myself, what’s the goal

442
00:14:57.584 –> 00:15:00.065
– here? Is the goal to gain empathy? Is

443
00:15:00.065 –> 00:15:02.164
– the goal to not get divorced?

444
00:15:02.865 –> 00:15:04.565
– Is the goal to have him

445
00:15:04.945 –> 00:15:07.850
– suffer and feel remorseful? But what are we

446
00:15:07.850 –> 00:15:09.690
– accomplishing? Because to me, I thought the goal

447
00:15:09.690 –> 00:15:11.769
– was for us to heal and thrive as

448
00:15:11.769 –> 00:15:12.350
– a couple.

449
00:15:13.049 –> 00:15:16.169
– Yeah. So so you’re hitting something, Roland, that

450
00:15:16.169 –> 00:15:18.495
– that I think is you know, especially when

451
00:15:18.495 –> 00:15:20.495
– things get really big and painful, we want

452
00:15:20.495 –> 00:15:22.095
– to think in all or not things black

453
00:15:22.095 –> 00:15:24.355
– and whites because that’s the easiest way to

454
00:15:24.735 –> 00:15:26.654
– utilize our energy. And so it’s like your

455
00:15:26.654 –> 00:15:28.414
– wife’s been betrayed. And so, of course, she’s

456
00:15:28.414 –> 00:15:30.575
– like, I can never trust you again. Everything

457
00:15:30.575 –> 00:15:32.490
– you did was a lie. And if you

458
00:15:32.490 –> 00:15:34.649
– go in right then guns ablaze and then

459
00:15:34.649 –> 00:15:37.049
– be like, no. It’s not. Like, you’re just

460
00:15:37.049 –> 00:15:39.370
– gonna you’re gonna, like, actually amplify the experience.

461
00:15:39.370 –> 00:15:40.889
– And so it’s kind of a weird dance

462
00:15:40.889 –> 00:15:42.889
– that that seems to take place where the

463
00:15:42.889 –> 00:15:44.585
– men that I work with, deep inside, they

464
00:15:44.585 –> 00:15:46.985
– wanna be empathetic to their wives. They wanna

465
00:15:46.985 –> 00:15:48.904
– be there to provide for them emotionally. They

466
00:15:48.904 –> 00:15:50.764
– wanna be there to be stable and secure.

467
00:15:50.985 –> 00:15:52.684
– And so they have to learn those skills

468
00:15:52.745 –> 00:15:54.605
– of of empathy and understanding

469
00:15:55.225 –> 00:15:56.605
– while at the same time

470
00:15:57.279 –> 00:15:59.200
– not taking on the identity as the one

471
00:15:59.200 –> 00:16:00.740
– down position in the relationship

472
00:16:01.440 –> 00:16:02.580
– forever because

473
00:16:03.120 –> 00:16:06.160
– that destines the relationship to never being able

474
00:16:06.160 –> 00:16:07.840
– to go beyond a a certain point. And

475
00:16:07.840 –> 00:16:10.019
– the certain point that those couples get to

476
00:16:10.414 –> 00:16:12.674
– is what they would call safety,

477
00:16:13.214 –> 00:16:13.954
– but it

478
00:16:14.414 –> 00:16:16.254
– sucks. Mhmm. Like, it’s just not it’s just

479
00:16:16.254 –> 00:16:18.254
– not a fun place to live where my

480
00:16:18.254 –> 00:16:20.495
– partner always has to be making up for

481
00:16:20.495 –> 00:16:22.414
– the problem over and over again. And so

482
00:16:22.414 –> 00:16:24.550
– it does take time. Like, there’s there needs

483
00:16:24.550 –> 00:16:26.149
– to be time for grieving. There needs to

484
00:16:26.149 –> 00:16:27.750
– be time for anger. There needs to be

485
00:16:27.750 –> 00:16:28.490
– time for

486
00:16:28.870 –> 00:16:30.790
– healing, and there needs to be a space

487
00:16:30.790 –> 00:16:32.250
– for that with some patience

488
00:16:32.710 –> 00:16:34.309
– with an understanding that at the end of

489
00:16:34.309 –> 00:16:36.809
– the day, if we choose to stay together,

490
00:16:37.235 –> 00:16:40.355
– we are choosing to have something more than

491
00:16:40.355 –> 00:16:42.835
– what this can provide for us. And there

492
00:16:42.835 –> 00:16:44.514
– does need to be that look towards the

493
00:16:44.514 –> 00:16:46.274
– future of who are who are both of

494
00:16:46.274 –> 00:16:46.774
– us

495
00:16:47.235 –> 00:16:47.735
– becoming.

496
00:16:48.195 –> 00:16:50.115
– What is both of our identity, and how

497
00:16:50.115 –> 00:16:51.495
– does that merge together?

498
00:16:51.980 –> 00:16:53.740
– And if we both go on a journey

499
00:16:53.740 –> 00:16:54.480
– of systematically

500
00:16:55.340 –> 00:16:57.340
– accepting, we I call it a pathway to

501
00:16:57.340 –> 00:16:58.559
– radical self acceptance.

502
00:16:59.340 –> 00:17:00.860
– Two people who go on a pathway to

503
00:17:00.860 –> 00:17:02.080
– radical self acceptance,

504
00:17:02.940 –> 00:17:05.180
– they build a marriage and a relationship with

505
00:17:05.180 –> 00:17:06.320
– each other that has

506
00:17:06.765 –> 00:17:10.125
– vulnerability and depth and understanding and support and

507
00:17:10.125 –> 00:17:10.625
– authenticity

508
00:17:11.484 –> 00:17:13.565
– where other places get stuck in that bogged

509
00:17:13.565 –> 00:17:16.684
– down place of, well, you hurt me. And

510
00:17:16.684 –> 00:17:18.445
– because you’ve hurt me, I will never trust.

511
00:17:18.445 –> 00:17:20.205
– And because I can never trust, you have

512
00:17:20.205 –> 00:17:21.484
– to be in the one down position the

513
00:17:21.484 –> 00:17:22.464
– rest of your life.

514
00:17:22.819 –> 00:17:24.579
– So if you’re in that position where you’ve

515
00:17:24.579 –> 00:17:26.200
– been the one who’s done the betraying,

516
00:17:26.500 –> 00:17:28.740
– you have a a an interesting fine line

517
00:17:28.740 –> 00:17:29.880
– to walk where

518
00:17:30.259 –> 00:17:32.519
– you wanna be sensitive, understanding, empathetic,

519
00:17:33.140 –> 00:17:33.640
– and

520
00:17:34.019 –> 00:17:35.299
– you need to be able to hold your

521
00:17:35.299 –> 00:17:37.605
– structure and your framing a little bit in

522
00:17:37.605 –> 00:17:39.785
– terms of I love my wife beforehand.

523
00:17:40.164 –> 00:17:41.845
– Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have a question, and

524
00:17:41.845 –> 00:17:43.444
– you’re gonna hate this question, but I have

525
00:17:43.444 –> 00:17:45.204
– to ask it because as a as a

526
00:17:45.204 –> 00:17:45.704
– podcaster,

527
00:17:46.244 –> 00:17:48.565
– I know every single listener is wanting me

528
00:17:48.565 –> 00:17:49.380
– to ask you this,

529
00:17:49.940 –> 00:17:51.140
– and you’re gonna kill me because it’s the

530
00:17:51.140 –> 00:17:53.619
– worst question to ask a therapist ever. Timeline.

531
00:17:53.619 –> 00:17:55.140
– I mean, truly, like, that’s what guys are

532
00:17:55.140 –> 00:17:56.759
– always wondering is, like,

533
00:17:57.059 –> 00:17:58.980
– I get that I have to, you know,

534
00:17:58.980 –> 00:18:01.380
– there there’s a process, a grieving process, an

535
00:18:01.380 –> 00:18:02.839
– anger process, a

536
00:18:03.174 –> 00:18:04.775
– all you know, the the the this is

537
00:18:04.775 –> 00:18:06.615
– a massive trauma for most women. They will

538
00:18:06.615 –> 00:18:08.375
– tell you this is the biggest trauma, and

539
00:18:08.375 –> 00:18:09.515
– they can’t even fathom

540
00:18:09.815 –> 00:18:11.974
– a larger one. You know? Truly, like, just

541
00:18:11.974 –> 00:18:13.654
– just the biggest hurt that they can think

542
00:18:13.654 –> 00:18:15.839
– of. Right? So we have to honor that.

543
00:18:15.919 –> 00:18:17.200
– And then and then to your point though,

544
00:18:17.200 –> 00:18:19.039
– but I have to ask, like, when do

545
00:18:19.039 –> 00:18:19.779
– we know

546
00:18:20.240 –> 00:18:22.259
– when when are we crossing into

547
00:18:22.960 –> 00:18:25.059
– a unhealthy and, you know, borderline

548
00:18:25.440 –> 00:18:26.579
– abusive relationship

549
00:18:26.880 –> 00:18:28.960
– where these two people just aren’t acting like

550
00:18:28.960 –> 00:18:30.335
– partners? I mean, this is just this is

551
00:18:30.414 –> 00:18:32.255
– this ain’t gonna work. I mean, where where

552
00:18:32.255 –> 00:18:34.255
– is that line and what and what time?

553
00:18:34.255 –> 00:18:36.015
– Now I know it’s a crummy crummy question

554
00:18:36.015 –> 00:18:37.855
– because it really depends on did the guy

555
00:18:37.855 –> 00:18:39.535
– get his shit together fast enough or not.

556
00:18:39.535 –> 00:18:40.894
– Because I have some guys in my group

557
00:18:40.894 –> 00:18:41.394
– who

558
00:18:41.775 –> 00:18:44.015
– who butcher this whole process, and they’re like,

559
00:18:44.015 –> 00:18:45.214
– oh, I mean, you’re in this. I’m like,

560
00:18:45.214 –> 00:18:47.539
– brother, you haven’t even started. I mean, like,

561
00:18:47.539 –> 00:18:49.380
– it’s a miracle she’s still with you. So,

562
00:18:49.380 –> 00:18:51.799
– anyways, it’s a dreaded question, Tyler, but, like,

563
00:18:51.940 –> 00:18:54.440
– as much as we are trying to graduate

564
00:18:54.500 –> 00:18:57.059
– to a place of tenderness and coming together

565
00:18:57.059 –> 00:18:58.259
– because it’s really gonna be the only thing

566
00:18:58.259 –> 00:19:00.154
– that’s gonna heal the marriage, Just give the

567
00:19:00.154 –> 00:19:01.595
– audience your and you you don’t I I

568
00:19:01.674 –> 00:19:03.434
– you don’t have to say a timeline because,

569
00:19:03.434 –> 00:19:05.194
– again, I think that’s inappropriate. But can you

570
00:19:05.194 –> 00:19:07.755
– help answer that question without necessarily giving them

571
00:19:07.755 –> 00:19:10.075
– any sort of specifics on, hey. When do

572
00:19:10.075 –> 00:19:11.994
– we need to start coming together as a

573
00:19:11.994 –> 00:19:14.220
– as a couple rather than, you know, really

574
00:19:14.220 –> 00:19:16.539
– beating this marriage into the ground to a

575
00:19:16.539 –> 00:19:19.019
– point where it becomes really difficult to crawl

576
00:19:19.019 –> 00:19:20.460
– out of? Let me let me try to

577
00:19:20.460 –> 00:19:21.660
– answer it this way, and then I can

578
00:19:21.660 –> 00:19:23.500
– also give you just some straight up answers

579
00:19:23.500 –> 00:19:25.180
– if you want them. I think we allow

580
00:19:25.180 –> 00:19:26.700
– ourselves to be treated right up to the

581
00:19:26.700 –> 00:19:28.480
– level we believe we should be treated.

582
00:19:28.835 –> 00:19:31.714
– And so I’m going to extend the misery

583
00:19:31.714 –> 00:19:33.795
– in my marriage the longer I stay in

584
00:19:33.795 –> 00:19:35.394
– the position of believing that I should be

585
00:19:35.394 –> 00:19:36.454
– beat up over it.

586
00:19:37.154 –> 00:19:39.154
– And so if I start doing my own

587
00:19:39.154 –> 00:19:41.039
– personal work and start moving from a place

588
00:19:41.039 –> 00:19:42.400
– of I’m not to that place of I

589
00:19:42.400 –> 00:19:44.320
– am that I’m talking about, and I start

590
00:19:44.320 –> 00:19:45.840
– realizing, you know what? I like what I

591
00:19:45.840 –> 00:19:47.600
– see in the mirror. I have a lot

592
00:19:47.600 –> 00:19:49.440
– to offer the world. I can offer my

593
00:19:49.440 –> 00:19:51.279
– wife my strength right now. I can take

594
00:19:51.279 –> 00:19:53.360
– accountability for the things that I’ve done. I

595
00:19:53.360 –> 00:19:55.404
– can be patient and forgiving,

596
00:19:55.785 –> 00:19:57.644
– but I’m not gonna tolerate being,

597
00:19:58.265 –> 00:20:00.025
– you know, what all of the stories that

598
00:20:00.025 –> 00:20:01.704
– you hear, you know, things thrown at me

599
00:20:01.704 –> 00:20:03.804
– or names called or labels assigned.

600
00:20:04.424 –> 00:20:06.845
– I’m gonna set some boundaries around those things

601
00:20:06.950 –> 00:20:09.269
– while still also offering my presence to my

602
00:20:09.269 –> 00:20:11.829
– spouse. And if I start stepping into that

603
00:20:11.829 –> 00:20:14.069
– more quickly because I believe I’m worthy of

604
00:20:14.069 –> 00:20:16.390
– being treated a certain way, not, like, defending

605
00:20:16.390 –> 00:20:19.109
– my supposed on or ego style, but more

606
00:20:19.109 –> 00:20:21.825
– like, no. Like, I’m not helping my wife

607
00:20:21.825 –> 00:20:24.065
– or myself if I continue to tolerate her

608
00:20:24.065 –> 00:20:25.045
– calling me names.

609
00:20:25.664 –> 00:20:27.765
– She’ll go to war with me even more

610
00:20:27.825 –> 00:20:29.825
– because she’ll hate herself for calling me the

611
00:20:29.825 –> 00:20:32.065
– names, and then I’m gonna agree with it,

612
00:20:32.065 –> 00:20:34.065
– and I’m gonna reinforce her continuing to do

613
00:20:34.065 –> 00:20:35.424
– that, and both of us are gonna be

614
00:20:35.424 –> 00:20:37.279
– more miserable for longer. So if I love

615
00:20:37.279 –> 00:20:39.700
– her, I should love myself enough to say,

616
00:20:40.000 –> 00:20:41.359
– hey. I can see you’re hurting, but I’m

617
00:20:41.359 –> 00:20:43.599
– not gonna continue the conversation unless we we

618
00:20:43.599 –> 00:20:46.480
– change the tone here. Right? Now a betrayed

619
00:20:46.480 –> 00:20:48.079
– partner’s hearing what I’m saying right now, and

620
00:20:48.079 –> 00:20:49.634
– I’m not doing this to trigger you or

621
00:20:49.634 –> 00:20:51.955
– say your your pain’s invalid. It is okay.

622
00:20:51.955 –> 00:20:52.775
– It’s valid.

623
00:20:53.555 –> 00:20:57.154
– But your partner showing up in strength and

624
00:20:57.154 –> 00:20:58.535
– according to true principle

625
00:20:59.235 –> 00:21:01.975
– will actually feel safer and provide trust faster,

626
00:21:02.035 –> 00:21:03.815
– and couples heal more quickly

627
00:21:04.319 –> 00:21:06.740
– when that individual process is happening.

628
00:21:07.279 –> 00:21:10.079
– Right? So in terms of timelines, you know,

629
00:21:10.079 –> 00:21:11.599
– what I look for, and this is what

630
00:21:11.599 –> 00:21:13.519
– I really what I I love the moment

631
00:21:13.519 –> 00:21:15.380
– when this happens. And this usually happens

632
00:21:16.000 –> 00:21:18.559
– anywhere from a few months into maybe around

633
00:21:18.559 –> 00:21:20.204
– a year or so with a with a

634
00:21:20.204 –> 00:21:22.284
– betrayed partner. They’ll come into my group or

635
00:21:22.284 –> 00:21:24.125
– my office, and they’ll be, like, distraught, and

636
00:21:24.125 –> 00:21:26.444
– they’ll say, I gotta stop coming. And I’m

637
00:21:26.444 –> 00:21:28.464
– like, okay. Why? What’s going on?

638
00:21:28.845 –> 00:21:31.325
– And they’ll say, I know that my partner

639
00:21:31.325 –> 00:21:33.565
– is in in real recovery. Like, there’s a

640
00:21:33.565 –> 00:21:36.019
– different energy. They’re showing up different. There’s more

641
00:21:36.019 –> 00:21:37.559
– accountability. There’s more humility.

642
00:21:37.859 –> 00:21:39.480
– There’s even an effort at empathy.

643
00:21:40.339 –> 00:21:42.500
– And and I’m like, that’s awesome. And then

644
00:21:42.500 –> 00:21:44.019
– they’re like, yeah. But the problem is is

645
00:21:44.019 –> 00:21:45.859
– that I don’t feel any better. Yeah. Right.

646
00:21:45.859 –> 00:21:47.335
– Then that’s when I’m like, hallelujah.

647
00:21:47.714 –> 00:21:48.994
– Now we can go to work on your

648
00:21:48.994 –> 00:21:51.474
– side of things. So everybody here what Tyler

649
00:21:51.474 –> 00:21:54.055
– just said, that was so articulated so beautifully.

650
00:21:54.115 –> 00:21:56.515
– Because, Tyler, you you nailed it. There is

651
00:21:56.515 –> 00:21:58.595
– this turning point. Like you said, for some,

652
00:21:58.595 –> 00:21:59.920
– it can happen. You You know, I think

653
00:21:59.920 –> 00:22:02.559
– my wife hit it pretty early. I was

654
00:22:02.559 –> 00:22:05.700
– really fortunate. She really under recognized that

655
00:22:06.080 –> 00:22:08.160
– I cannot create safety for her. I cannot

656
00:22:08.160 –> 00:22:10.160
– make her feel beautiful. I cannot make her

657
00:22:10.160 –> 00:22:12.080
– feel cherished. I cannot you know, I can

658
00:22:12.080 –> 00:22:14.565
– certainly do things to help her reinforce the

659
00:22:14.565 –> 00:22:16.825
– story that to make all those things worse.

660
00:22:16.884 –> 00:22:17.704
– But ultimately,

661
00:22:18.164 –> 00:22:20.164
– she recognized that the only person who’s gonna

662
00:22:20.164 –> 00:22:21.765
– make her feel safe, the only person who

663
00:22:21.765 –> 00:22:24.644
– was gonna trust me was her. There really

664
00:22:24.644 –> 00:22:25.704
– was truly nothing

665
00:22:26.049 –> 00:22:27.809
– I could do on my end to restore

666
00:22:27.809 –> 00:22:29.730
– any of those feelings. And I was I

667
00:22:29.730 –> 00:22:31.329
– was very fortunate. She started she I think

668
00:22:31.329 –> 00:22:32.930
– she flipped into that at, like, yeah, month

669
00:22:32.930 –> 00:22:35.029
– three or four. Did you ever hear that?

670
00:22:35.089 –> 00:22:37.650
– So it’s when it’s when that milestone is

671
00:22:37.650 –> 00:22:38.150
– reached

672
00:22:38.505 –> 00:22:41.144
– that that things start to become very healthy

673
00:22:41.144 –> 00:22:43.704
– because now the two individuals really taking ownership

674
00:22:43.704 –> 00:22:46.265
– over their reality. And that, you know, anybody

675
00:22:46.265 –> 00:22:48.265
– who knows anything about EFT, that’s really why

676
00:22:48.265 –> 00:22:50.204
– EFT is works so well is

677
00:22:50.519 –> 00:22:53.000
– what’s your reality, what’s my reality, and let’s

678
00:22:53.160 –> 00:22:55.160
– and and we both care. Right? And it’s

679
00:22:55.160 –> 00:22:57.080
– just really bonding experience, but it’s it’s tough

680
00:22:57.080 –> 00:22:59.259
– before that. Now one thing I wanna add

681
00:22:59.400 –> 00:22:59.900
– is

682
00:23:00.359 –> 00:23:02.140
– how do we create an environment

683
00:23:03.285 –> 00:23:05.605
– for the partners to get into a safe

684
00:23:05.605 –> 00:23:07.285
– place where they can get there? That is

685
00:23:07.285 –> 00:23:08.965
– where guys, there is a lot on you

686
00:23:08.965 –> 00:23:10.805
– there. You know, she again, she needs to

687
00:23:10.805 –> 00:23:12.805
– see willingness. She needs to see change. She

688
00:23:12.805 –> 00:23:15.545
– needs to see, you know, effort, energy, enthusiasm.

689
00:23:15.605 –> 00:23:17.845
– She needs to see empathy and attempts at

690
00:23:17.845 –> 00:23:20.220
– empathy. She needs to see ownership. She needs

691
00:23:20.299 –> 00:23:21.920
– right. So there’s a ton of things

692
00:23:22.380 –> 00:23:24.859
– that the partners need to see for them

693
00:23:24.859 –> 00:23:26.619
– to get to a place where they can

694
00:23:26.619 –> 00:23:29.039
– be like, okay. Crap. He actually is

695
00:23:29.420 –> 00:23:32.460
– putting in the work, but I still feel

696
00:23:32.460 –> 00:23:34.965
– terrified that every single day and my hurts

697
00:23:34.965 –> 00:23:36.404
– just as deep as it was on day

698
00:23:36.404 –> 00:23:38.085
– one, and here we are, you know, twelve

699
00:23:38.085 –> 00:23:40.005
– months into this thing. Right? So so I

700
00:23:40.005 –> 00:23:41.684
– just I know we made it sound like

701
00:23:41.684 –> 00:23:43.125
– it was a flip the switch of the

702
00:23:43.125 –> 00:23:45.045
– partners had a guys, there I would say

703
00:23:45.045 –> 00:23:47.140
– there’s a ton of stuff that you need

704
00:23:47.140 –> 00:23:48.820
– to do for her to get to a

705
00:23:48.820 –> 00:23:51.700
– point where she can have the moment of,

706
00:23:51.700 –> 00:23:53.779
– okay. He is putting in the work, but

707
00:23:53.779 –> 00:23:55.940
– I don’t feel better. Right? I wanted everybody

708
00:23:55.940 –> 00:23:57.299
– to see that. Yes. It is a switch

709
00:23:57.299 –> 00:23:58.519
– in her, but it’s also

710
00:23:59.315 –> 00:24:01.634
– this recognition on her end that you are

711
00:24:01.634 –> 00:24:03.954
– trying as hard as you can to change

712
00:24:03.954 –> 00:24:06.055
– yourself and and and and fix the marriage.

713
00:24:06.355 –> 00:24:08.595
– So well articulated, Tyler. So but I gotta

714
00:24:08.595 –> 00:24:10.355
– ask then about this one up, one down

715
00:24:10.355 –> 00:24:10.855
– thing

716
00:24:11.250 –> 00:24:11.750
– because

717
00:24:12.130 –> 00:24:14.849
– I frankly don’t like it. And my wife’s

718
00:24:14.849 –> 00:24:17.029
– an LMFT as well, and her schooling

719
00:24:17.490 –> 00:24:20.070
– says that the therapist should never actually condone

720
00:24:20.130 –> 00:24:22.769
– such a thing. Putting one partner over another

721
00:24:22.769 –> 00:24:25.089
– partner is there’s never an appropriate place for

722
00:24:25.089 –> 00:24:27.525
– that. However, within the sex addiction community,

723
00:24:27.984 –> 00:24:29.744
– you know, that is something that again, it’s

724
00:24:29.744 –> 00:24:31.744
– on podcast on and and the rationale that

725
00:24:31.744 –> 00:24:34.065
– they say is, oh, well, because he was

726
00:24:34.065 –> 00:24:36.465
– lying, he was in the one up. So,

727
00:24:36.465 –> 00:24:38.465
– therefore, this is her turn to get the

728
00:24:38.465 –> 00:24:40.465
– slight one up until we can get through

729
00:24:40.465 –> 00:24:41.045
– a crisis.

730
00:24:41.369 –> 00:24:43.369
– I’m not a huge fan of that because

731
00:24:43.369 –> 00:24:45.210
– it’s a little tick for tack, and, it

732
00:24:45.210 –> 00:24:47.369
– kinda goes against what we know about sound

733
00:24:47.369 –> 00:24:49.210
– relational psychology. I want I would like you

734
00:24:49.210 –> 00:24:50.829
– to speak to that as an LFT.

735
00:24:51.609 –> 00:24:53.634
– Why would we do that? Because, again, I

736
00:24:53.634 –> 00:24:55.875
– I don’t know if that dynamic does any

737
00:24:55.875 –> 00:24:58.515
– favors for their identities going forward. I think

738
00:24:58.515 –> 00:25:00.275
– it’s really where a lot of the resentment

739
00:25:00.275 –> 00:25:02.115
– and contempt starts to brew. That’s a great

740
00:25:02.115 –> 00:25:04.434
– thought. As I think about that in the

741
00:25:04.434 –> 00:25:06.900
– industry, the whole overall industry, I think where

742
00:25:06.900 –> 00:25:08.740
– you’re going, you know, Brandon, if you ever

743
00:25:08.740 –> 00:25:10.740
– listen to our podcast, Brandon tees off on

744
00:25:10.740 –> 00:25:13.380
– one particular program a lot because he has

745
00:25:13.380 –> 00:25:14.980
– history with them, and they do this very

746
00:25:14.980 –> 00:25:15.799
– thing where they

747
00:25:16.180 –> 00:25:18.759
– put the spouse in, like, victim mode.

748
00:25:19.140 –> 00:25:20.039
– He’s an abuser,

749
00:25:20.674 –> 00:25:22.275
– and then they just drape that home. And

750
00:25:22.275 –> 00:25:24.434
– pretty soon, it’s just like there’s no place

751
00:25:24.434 –> 00:25:25.095
– to go.

752
00:25:25.634 –> 00:25:27.554
– I think why it happens, and I’m not

753
00:25:27.554 –> 00:25:29.794
– sure it’s, like, done intentionally, is is that

754
00:25:29.794 –> 00:25:31.474
– there does need to be some level of

755
00:25:31.474 –> 00:25:31.974
– sensitivity

756
00:25:32.275 –> 00:25:34.595
– to the process that the spouse is gonna

757
00:25:34.595 –> 00:25:35.815
– go through that’s been betrayed,

758
00:25:36.710 –> 00:25:39.349
– where she’s going to have her world spin

759
00:25:39.349 –> 00:25:41.190
– for a while. She’s not gonna be able

760
00:25:41.190 –> 00:25:43.109
– to find grounding all the time. There’s gonna

761
00:25:43.109 –> 00:25:46.410
– be the big waves of fear and anger

762
00:25:46.470 –> 00:25:49.029
– and sadness and devastation and loss of hopes

763
00:25:49.029 –> 00:25:49.769
– and dreams.

764
00:25:50.505 –> 00:25:52.825
– I think a good therapist is able to

765
00:25:52.825 –> 00:25:55.065
– actually balance both where they can be there

766
00:25:55.065 –> 00:25:55.724
– to provide

767
00:25:56.025 –> 00:25:58.924
– a safe container and some validation and understanding

768
00:25:59.065 –> 00:26:00.845
– for the process of that grieving

769
00:26:01.625 –> 00:26:04.105
– while also attending to the person who’s done

770
00:26:04.105 –> 00:26:05.279
– the the betraying

771
00:26:05.740 –> 00:26:06.559
– and saying,

772
00:26:06.940 –> 00:26:09.180
– hey. You can’t live in this. I suck

773
00:26:09.180 –> 00:26:10.619
– for the rest of your life. You’re actually

774
00:26:10.619 –> 00:26:12.380
– hurting yourself. Like, we have to figure out

775
00:26:12.380 –> 00:26:14.539
– how to start helping you grow into a

776
00:26:14.539 –> 00:26:15.359
– different energy

777
00:26:15.740 –> 00:26:17.339
– while we’re attending to the partner. And a

778
00:26:17.339 –> 00:26:19.275
– lot of times, maybe that feels like

779
00:26:19.595 –> 00:26:21.914
– or maybe it’s purposely done that, hey. We

780
00:26:21.914 –> 00:26:24.575
– need to attend to the broken betrayed spouse

781
00:26:25.355 –> 00:26:27.195
– first and then leave this other person over

782
00:26:27.195 –> 00:26:28.634
– here to just kick them around for a

783
00:26:28.634 –> 00:26:31.275
– while because then justice can be served, and

784
00:26:31.275 –> 00:26:33.160
– and then it’ll be all better. I don’t

785
00:26:33.160 –> 00:26:35.160
– agree with that approach either, Roland. I do

786
00:26:35.160 –> 00:26:37.480
– see where it where it can easily turn

787
00:26:37.480 –> 00:26:38.839
– into that, though. I do. I think you

788
00:26:38.920 –> 00:26:40.519
– I think sorry to interrupt, but I do

789
00:26:40.519 –> 00:26:42.859
– think you said it so well right there.

790
00:26:43.240 –> 00:26:43.820
– I think

791
00:26:44.359 –> 00:26:46.299
– a lot of times it’s done accidentally

792
00:26:46.759 –> 00:26:48.565
– because, you know, he you know who worded

793
00:26:48.565 –> 00:26:50.565
– it really well? Tammy Gustafson’s called it the

794
00:26:50.565 –> 00:26:52.325
– spotlight and I really liked how she said

795
00:26:52.325 –> 00:26:55.944
– that. The spotlight needs to be on her.

796
00:26:56.644 –> 00:26:59.284
– That I really liked. I liked that saying

797
00:26:59.284 –> 00:27:02.264
– because it wasn’t saying you need to tolerate

798
00:27:02.325 –> 00:27:04.289
– abuse. It wasn’t saying that she gets to

799
00:27:04.289 –> 00:27:05.190
– call you names,

800
00:27:05.569 –> 00:27:07.109
– break things, throw things.

801
00:27:07.490 –> 00:27:09.250
– All of that’s abuse. You don’t it doesn’t

802
00:27:09.250 –> 00:27:11.169
– matter. You never get the right to call

803
00:27:11.169 –> 00:27:13.809
– someone something derogatory ever. It doesn’t matter what

804
00:27:13.809 –> 00:27:15.089
– they did to you. It’s abusive. It just

805
00:27:15.089 –> 00:27:17.244
– is. There are laws against it actually. There

806
00:27:17.244 –> 00:27:19.724
– can be legal legal recourse. So it’s, that’s

807
00:27:19.724 –> 00:27:21.825
– not tolerated. So but the spotlight

808
00:27:22.285 –> 00:27:24.765
– on her, I really like that because she

809
00:27:24.765 –> 00:27:26.765
– she worded it nicely because it wasn’t talking

810
00:27:26.765 –> 00:27:29.005
– about a power dynamic or you’re less of

811
00:27:29.005 –> 00:27:30.605
– a person because of what you did or

812
00:27:30.605 –> 00:27:32.500
– you owe me. Right? Because that’s a common

813
00:27:32.500 –> 00:27:35.059
– one. Right? It’s like, oh, you better, you

814
00:27:35.059 –> 00:27:36.980
– know, you better you better be on your

815
00:27:36.980 –> 00:27:38.819
– a game for the next twenty years of

816
00:27:38.819 –> 00:27:41.000
– marriage to make up for what you did.

817
00:27:41.140 –> 00:27:43.220
– That’s not gonna be any fun for him

818
00:27:43.220 –> 00:27:44.740
– to be. And then I think I think

819
00:27:44.740 –> 00:27:46.565
– that’s that’s where we start to go. But

820
00:27:46.565 –> 00:27:48.325
– to your point, I do think there are

821
00:27:48.325 –> 00:27:49.605
– people. I know there are because you can

822
00:27:49.605 –> 00:27:50.585
– hear it in the podcast.

823
00:27:51.125 –> 00:27:52.664
– There are people that say

824
00:27:53.365 –> 00:27:55.545
– that definitely frame it as a

825
00:27:55.924 –> 00:27:57.730
– you’re this, you’re that. Look at look at

826
00:27:57.730 –> 00:27:59.169
– all this. Look at that. Here, let me

827
00:27:59.169 –> 00:28:00.849
– show you all the facts of what you’ve

828
00:28:00.849 –> 00:28:03.490
– done to her. And then there’s basically, like,

829
00:28:03.490 –> 00:28:05.029
– nothing done for

830
00:28:05.329 –> 00:28:07.569
– his experience and his past and why he’s

831
00:28:07.569 –> 00:28:09.649
– he’s even in in this position. And that,

832
00:28:09.649 –> 00:28:11.509
– again, that’s a that’s a really tough place.

833
00:28:11.644 –> 00:28:13.484
– That’s a really tough place to live. And

834
00:28:13.484 –> 00:28:15.325
– my own personal experience with was similar to

835
00:28:15.325 –> 00:28:17.724
– yours, Tali. You you sound like you, like,

836
00:28:17.724 –> 00:28:19.424
– removed your spine, and

837
00:28:20.044 –> 00:28:22.605
– I can’t remove my spine. I it’s just

838
00:28:22.605 –> 00:28:23.884
– not something I can do. I have no

839
00:28:23.884 –> 00:28:25.484
– interest in that. I get divorced before I

840
00:28:25.484 –> 00:28:27.329
– would do such a thing. But for me,

841
00:28:27.329 –> 00:28:29.509
– it was it was really tough because I

842
00:28:29.650 –> 00:28:32.309
– slow I started resenting her for the way

843
00:28:32.450 –> 00:28:34.450
– the marriage was, the way I would feel

844
00:28:34.450 –> 00:28:36.769
– coming home, the way that’s really what I’m

845
00:28:36.769 –> 00:28:38.690
– talking about here is it’s not we’re not

846
00:28:38.690 –> 00:28:41.705
– trying to dishonor anybody’s experience. I think that’s

847
00:28:41.705 –> 00:28:43.345
– the reason I’m always so hesitant to even

848
00:28:43.345 –> 00:28:45.505
– say this is the second I say no

849
00:28:45.505 –> 00:28:46.625
– one up one down, I’m all of a

850
00:28:46.625 –> 00:28:48.164
– sudden accused of being unempathetic

851
00:28:48.785 –> 00:28:50.464
– for the partner’s experience. And that’s that’s not

852
00:28:50.464 –> 00:28:52.704
– what I’m saying. I’m I am pro thriving

853
00:28:52.704 –> 00:28:54.545
– marriage, and I just want everybody to look

854
00:28:54.545 –> 00:28:56.460
– at the Gottman’s research and you ask yourself,

855
00:28:56.619 –> 00:28:57.819
– go look at that research, some of the

856
00:28:57.819 –> 00:29:00.079
– best research in the field. You tell me,

857
00:29:00.380 –> 00:29:01.839
– are we honoring what

858
00:29:02.299 –> 00:29:04.559
– what all of that research shows us

859
00:29:04.859 –> 00:29:07.500
– about marriages who thrive and stay together? Because

860
00:29:07.500 –> 00:29:09.179
– to me, I I see us doing a

861
00:29:09.179 –> 00:29:11.515
– lot of stuff through this through this process

862
00:29:11.515 –> 00:29:12.575
– that’s going to

863
00:29:13.115 –> 00:29:15.195
– create the very things that the Gottman say

864
00:29:15.195 –> 00:29:17.115
– lead to a ninety five plus,

865
00:29:17.434 –> 00:29:18.575
– percent chance of divorce.

866
00:29:18.875 –> 00:29:20.555
– Yeah. And I I would say I you’re

867
00:29:20.555 –> 00:29:23.275
– right, Roland. I think I did take the

868
00:29:23.275 –> 00:29:25.195
– spineless approach because I thought that’s what a

869
00:29:25.195 –> 00:29:27.130
– good man was supposed to do. Like, that’s

870
00:29:27.130 –> 00:29:28.750
– what I’ve been taught. Right?

871
00:29:29.210 –> 00:29:31.049
– And it wasn’t until in our case, it

872
00:29:31.049 –> 00:29:32.349
– wasn’t until probably

873
00:29:33.210 –> 00:29:35.529
– we got into, like, the safe place into

874
00:29:35.529 –> 00:29:37.130
– it after a couple of years, but then

875
00:29:37.130 –> 00:29:39.835
– it was, like, bumpy until around seven years

876
00:29:39.835 –> 00:29:42.234
– into recovery. Not to interrupt, but I think

877
00:29:42.234 –> 00:29:45.214
– that’s the reason the spineless approach, I think,

878
00:29:45.274 –> 00:29:45.774
– is

879
00:29:46.394 –> 00:29:48.234
– kind of forced upon it. And if you

880
00:29:48.234 –> 00:29:49.914
– keep your spine, you’re accused of being a

881
00:29:49.914 –> 00:29:50.414
– narcissist

882
00:29:50.954 –> 00:29:53.339
– is I do think it creates

883
00:29:54.039 –> 00:29:56.119
– the I do think that power dynamic actually

884
00:29:56.119 –> 00:29:57.720
– creates very quick safety, and I think it

885
00:29:57.720 –> 00:29:58.859
– increases dramatically

886
00:29:59.160 –> 00:30:00.460
– increases the percentage

887
00:30:00.759 –> 00:30:03.000
– of marriages that are saved. The question is

888
00:30:03.000 –> 00:30:04.815
– that to me at what cost? I think

889
00:30:04.815 –> 00:30:06.174
– maybe that’s the way I would view is

890
00:30:06.174 –> 00:30:08.095
– it is that in my case, I got

891
00:30:08.095 –> 00:30:10.274
– lucky because I didn’t have all the resources

892
00:30:10.335 –> 00:30:11.694
– and things that were out there. I was

893
00:30:11.694 –> 00:30:13.855
– kinda tripping along doing it myself while I

894
00:30:13.855 –> 00:30:15.875
– was also trying to be an addictions counselor,

895
00:30:16.015 –> 00:30:18.174
– you know, like such a hypocrite. So I

896
00:30:18.174 –> 00:30:20.380
– kinda lucked into it because my wife was

897
00:30:20.380 –> 00:30:22.059
– the one who had the intuition to say,

898
00:30:22.059 –> 00:30:24.460
– wait a second. Like, I can’t continue to

899
00:30:24.460 –> 00:30:26.059
– keep it this way. It doesn’t work for

900
00:30:26.059 –> 00:30:27.740
– me. In fact, I I hate him more

901
00:30:27.740 –> 00:30:29.740
– and more the more he plays small. And

902
00:30:29.740 –> 00:30:31.340
– so I started to learn that shift. And

903
00:30:31.340 –> 00:30:33.434
– then over the last ever since we started

904
00:30:33.434 –> 00:30:34.795
– kinda making the shift, and I started looking

905
00:30:34.795 –> 00:30:36.234
– at myself and saying, I need to grow

906
00:30:36.234 –> 00:30:38.234
– into the man that I was designed to

907
00:30:38.234 –> 00:30:40.714
– be. And that might even mean having a

908
00:30:40.714 –> 00:30:42.575
– few more boundaries with my wife

909
00:30:42.875 –> 00:30:45.035
– that she’ll push against and hate, but she’ll

910
00:30:45.035 –> 00:30:45.934
– also love.

911
00:30:46.315 –> 00:30:48.380
– And I I tell you what, when I

912
00:30:48.380 –> 00:30:50.619
– started doing that kind of work with a

913
00:30:50.619 –> 00:30:52.799
– different level of energy, which was the becoming

914
00:30:52.940 –> 00:30:53.440
– energy,

915
00:30:54.059 –> 00:30:55.519
– that’s changed everything

916
00:30:55.819 –> 00:30:58.619
– in our relationship. She’s she’ll come to me

917
00:30:58.619 –> 00:31:00.795
– now and say, like, she feels way safer.

918
00:31:00.795 –> 00:31:03.115
– She trusts me now again in a different

919
00:31:03.115 –> 00:31:05.355
– kind of way, but it’s like full trust.

920
00:31:05.355 –> 00:31:07.674
– She’s way more open with me. And I

921
00:31:07.674 –> 00:31:09.775
– think she likes that I push back sometimes

922
00:31:09.914 –> 00:31:11.515
– when I didn’t used to, but I do

923
00:31:11.515 –> 00:31:12.795
– it in a way that’s still kind and

924
00:31:12.795 –> 00:31:15.059
– loving. And, yeah, you’re you’re spot on with

925
00:31:15.059 –> 00:31:16.500
– that. So I I I kinda view it

926
00:31:16.500 –> 00:31:18.500
– more as, like, it can be a stepping

927
00:31:18.500 –> 00:31:20.660
– stone, but you can’t get stuck there because

928
00:31:20.660 –> 00:31:22.740
– if you get stuck there And that’s why

929
00:31:22.740 –> 00:31:24.819
– I almost wonder why have it be a

930
00:31:25.140 –> 00:31:25.895
– if we see such a high percentage of

931
00:31:25.895 –> 00:31:26.505
– people getting stuck there, which I see.

932
00:31:31.625 –> 00:31:33.944
– Stepping stone when I’ve seen other couples who

933
00:31:33.944 –> 00:31:35.785
– did not use that as a stepping stone,

934
00:31:35.785 –> 00:31:37.464
– and then we never had the risk of

935
00:31:37.464 –> 00:31:39.559
– getting stuck there. You know, it’s a I

936
00:31:39.559 –> 00:31:41.079
– find it quite interesting. There’s a I I

937
00:31:41.079 –> 00:31:42.920
– have a lot of couples who will guy

938
00:31:42.920 –> 00:31:45.000
– will meet me and they had a couple

939
00:31:45.000 –> 00:31:46.759
– therapists that they had used before. The person

940
00:31:46.759 –> 00:31:48.519
– had no idea what sex addiction or betrayal

941
00:31:48.519 –> 00:31:50.519
– even was, and they just treated them like

942
00:31:50.519 –> 00:31:52.859
– two human beings in in in a relationship.

943
00:31:53.244 –> 00:31:54.924
– And it’s always it’s always so interesting to

944
00:31:54.924 –> 00:31:57.164
– me. All the traditional stuff they did not

945
00:31:57.164 –> 00:31:59.644
– do. And then here’s this couple doing so

946
00:31:59.644 –> 00:32:02.044
– much better than so many of the couples

947
00:32:02.044 –> 00:32:03.644
– who followed it. And that’s where I kinda

948
00:32:03.644 –> 00:32:06.150
– wanna come back to this identity piece. So

949
00:32:06.150 –> 00:32:08.950
– speak to that. Why would a couple who

950
00:32:08.950 –> 00:32:10.890
– does not follow the traditional

951
00:32:11.190 –> 00:32:11.670
– kind of,

952
00:32:12.309 –> 00:32:12.809
– protocol

953
00:32:13.590 –> 00:32:16.549
– that largely the field uses and instead went

954
00:32:16.549 –> 00:32:18.070
– and saw somebody and would just treat it

955
00:32:18.070 –> 00:32:20.994
– like to hurt people, somebody who hurt someone,

956
00:32:20.994 –> 00:32:22.375
– somebody who were hurt by someone.

957
00:32:22.755 –> 00:32:25.955
– From an identity standpoint, Tyler, why why would

958
00:32:25.955 –> 00:32:26.775
– that couple

959
00:32:27.394 –> 00:32:30.035
– come back to something that resembled a healthy

960
00:32:30.035 –> 00:32:31.015
– marriage faster?

961
00:32:31.339 –> 00:32:32.940
– Talk to me about that because it goes

962
00:32:32.940 –> 00:32:34.539
– against so much of what we know. Right?

963
00:32:34.539 –> 00:32:36.299
– It’s like, oh, well, you didn’t do this.

964
00:32:36.299 –> 00:32:37.740
– You didn’t write that letter and you didn’t

965
00:32:37.740 –> 00:32:39.500
– go take that. You know, why all of

966
00:32:39.500 –> 00:32:41.420
– a sudden do we see them returning? Because

967
00:32:41.420 –> 00:32:42.700
– I don’t I’m not gonna say it was

968
00:32:42.700 –> 00:32:43.519
– any easier,

969
00:32:43.974 –> 00:32:46.315
– but I do see them returning to coupleship

970
00:32:46.454 –> 00:32:48.694
– a lot faster. Go back to identity and

971
00:32:48.694 –> 00:32:50.054
– and tell me that tell me why that’s

972
00:32:50.054 –> 00:32:52.134
– happening. Yeah. Well, I think I think you’re

973
00:32:52.134 –> 00:32:53.974
– right. If you’re going to the wrong places,

974
00:32:53.974 –> 00:32:56.454
– you kind of get spoon fed for longer

975
00:32:56.454 –> 00:32:57.674
– than maybe is necessary

976
00:32:58.460 –> 00:33:01.420
– and maybe even supported in a way. Like,

977
00:33:01.420 –> 00:33:03.420
– there are programs out there that the way

978
00:33:03.420 –> 00:33:05.019
– that they keep you in the program is

979
00:33:05.019 –> 00:33:06.779
– they continue to tell you how broken you

980
00:33:06.779 –> 00:33:08.720
– are and how and how wrong it was.

981
00:33:08.940 –> 00:33:10.460
– Right? So if you stay there a long

982
00:33:10.460 –> 00:33:12.380
– time, you can kinda get addicted to that.

983
00:33:12.380 –> 00:33:14.625
– And you can feel true because your feelings

984
00:33:14.625 –> 00:33:16.304
– are valid, but it just keeps you stuck.

985
00:33:16.304 –> 00:33:17.825
– Right? For a for a betrayed partner. I

986
00:33:17.825 –> 00:33:19.184
– mean, you kidding me? You you put her

987
00:33:19.184 –> 00:33:20.704
– in a room of a bunch of people

988
00:33:20.704 –> 00:33:23.345
– talking about the injustice of this. How how

989
00:33:23.345 –> 00:33:24.784
– is how is that not supposed to make

990
00:33:24.784 –> 00:33:26.900
– you upset? Because it’s it’s pretty it’s pretty

991
00:33:26.900 –> 00:33:28.579
– ugly to to to look at for sure.

992
00:33:28.579 –> 00:33:30.180
– Yeah. Yeah. I think and I think that’s

993
00:33:30.180 –> 00:33:32.099
– it as you wanna find I think you

994
00:33:32.099 –> 00:33:34.420
– wanna find the right resources where there’s a

995
00:33:34.420 –> 00:33:36.740
– space to have your feelings and to be

996
00:33:36.740 –> 00:33:38.680
– held and allowed to process.

997
00:33:39.345 –> 00:33:40.785
– We talk about it being a both end

998
00:33:40.785 –> 00:33:42.304
– all the time with our clients on both

999
00:33:42.304 –> 00:33:43.984
– the the men and the women’s side of

1000
00:33:43.984 –> 00:33:44.804
– things of

1001
00:33:45.105 –> 00:33:46.865
– you need someone to hear you and hold

1002
00:33:46.865 –> 00:33:49.505
– you and to call you up. You need

1003
00:33:49.505 –> 00:33:51.105
– both at the same time. And and a

1004
00:33:51.105 –> 00:33:52.944
– lot of places only do the hearing and

1005
00:33:52.944 –> 00:33:55.350
– holding and then calling us too. You can’t

1006
00:33:55.350 –> 00:33:57.130
– have somebody telling you

1007
00:33:57.670 –> 00:33:59.130
– reminding you of the injustice

1008
00:33:59.430 –> 00:34:02.230
– and not holding to me, it it needs

1009
00:34:02.230 –> 00:34:04.809
– to be the same person holding you tenderly

1010
00:34:05.430 –> 00:34:07.035
– and then calling you up. Would you not

1011
00:34:07.035 –> 00:34:08.555
– agree? Because I feel like you can’t I

1012
00:34:08.555 –> 00:34:09.914
– feel like the person calling you up can’t

1013
00:34:09.914 –> 00:34:12.335
– do it without hearing you and holding you,

1014
00:34:12.394 –> 00:34:14.155
– and then the person hearing you and holding

1015
00:34:14.155 –> 00:34:16.074
– you is the person who who’s the best

1016
00:34:16.074 –> 00:34:17.515
– suited to call you up. Would you wouldn’t

1017
00:34:17.515 –> 00:34:19.614
– you agree? I think that would be ideal.

1018
00:34:19.835 –> 00:34:21.295
– I see this happen sometimes

1019
00:34:21.920 –> 00:34:24.340
– in, let’s say say, my groups where maybe

1020
00:34:24.480 –> 00:34:26.160
– one of them comes in and is, like,

1021
00:34:26.160 –> 00:34:27.780
– you know, going off my husband,

1022
00:34:28.480 –> 00:34:29.840
– and then two or three of the ladies

1023
00:34:29.840 –> 00:34:31.519
– are like, me too. Like, oh my gosh.

1024
00:34:31.519 –> 00:34:33.039
– I wanna beat him up for you. This,

1025
00:34:33.039 –> 00:34:33.780
– that, whatever.

1026
00:34:34.079 –> 00:34:36.755
– And then as the discussion progresses, maybe another

1027
00:34:36.755 –> 00:34:38.275
– couple of ladies in the group will be

1028
00:34:38.275 –> 00:34:40.674
– like, but have you also considered this or

1029
00:34:40.674 –> 00:34:42.994
– this or maybe how you’re contributing to your

1030
00:34:42.994 –> 00:34:45.234
– own misery here? And then that discussion in

1031
00:34:45.234 –> 00:34:48.034
– the whole group still becomes really powerful. Sure.

1032
00:34:48.034 –> 00:34:49.859
– Sure. It’s the context. Absolutely. Yeah. So but,

1033
00:34:49.859 –> 00:34:51.219
– you know, I think yeah. I think you’re

1034
00:34:51.219 –> 00:34:53.619
– right. The same container. Right? Yeah. And yours

1035
00:34:53.779 –> 00:34:55.059
– but it still comes back to what I

1036
00:34:55.059 –> 00:34:57.059
– was saying though is it’s a safe those

1037
00:34:57.059 –> 00:34:58.819
– women are in their group. So it’s in

1038
00:34:58.819 –> 00:35:01.059
– an essence still, they read the post. They

1039
00:35:01.059 –> 00:35:03.539
– were heard. They read the dialogue. Right? And

1040
00:35:03.539 –> 00:35:05.213
– then so so Yep. Because I I think

1041
00:35:05.213 –> 00:35:06.698
– where it doesn’t work is when someone’s just

1042
00:35:06.698 –> 00:35:08.182
– trying to pull you up and out. And

1043
00:35:08.182 –> 00:35:09.852
– it’s like, yeah. But you don’t know Yeah.

1044
00:35:10.038 –> 00:35:11.522
– What he did to me and how he

1045
00:35:11.522 –> 00:35:13.192
– met and you don’t know the continued buying.

1046
00:35:13.192 –> 00:35:14.676
– And of the time where he looked at

1047
00:35:14.676 –> 00:35:16.161
– me straight in the face and lied again.

1048
00:35:16.161 –> 00:35:17.859
– Right? You don’t know you know? And so

1049
00:35:17.859 –> 00:35:19.300
– that’s why I do think you do need

1050
00:35:19.300 –> 00:35:21.940
– to know her story because I don’t know

1051
00:35:21.940 –> 00:35:23.780
– if she’s gonna let you say those. It’s

1052
00:35:23.780 –> 00:35:24.900
– a 100100%.

1053
00:35:24.900 –> 00:35:26.900
– You have to have trust and understanding in

1054
00:35:26.900 –> 00:35:28.739
– order to even have a little bit we

1055
00:35:28.739 –> 00:35:30.900
– we follow the principles in the anatomy of

1056
00:35:30.900 –> 00:35:32.359
– peace a lot, and it talks about

1057
00:35:32.804 –> 00:35:35.125
– real relationship leads to a little bit of

1058
00:35:35.125 –> 00:35:36.724
– correction. And if you don’t have the real

1059
00:35:36.724 –> 00:35:39.364
– relationship, you can’t correct. And Yes. Awesome. That’s

1060
00:35:39.364 –> 00:35:41.764
– kinda how it works. And, to your previous

1061
00:35:41.764 –> 00:35:42.264
– question,

1062
00:35:43.125 –> 00:35:45.190
– something and this is maybe I’m thinking about

1063
00:35:45.190 –> 00:35:46.630
– my own experience, as well as a lot

1064
00:35:46.630 –> 00:35:48.469
– of the people that I work with. You

1065
00:35:48.469 –> 00:35:50.789
– you asked, how is it that couples that

1066
00:35:50.789 –> 00:35:53.110
– don’t do the traditional thing might get better

1067
00:35:53.110 –> 00:35:55.670
– faster? And I I would say there’s definitely

1068
00:35:55.670 –> 00:35:57.269
– the the factor of what kind of treatment

1069
00:35:57.269 –> 00:36:00.235
– you’re getting. Right. But there’s also another factor,

1070
00:36:00.235 –> 00:36:00.974
– which is

1071
00:36:01.675 –> 00:36:02.655
– a lot of times

1072
00:36:03.275 –> 00:36:05.534
– the people that come into like our office,

1073
00:36:05.594 –> 00:36:07.275
– let’s say I have a nice guy come

1074
00:36:07.275 –> 00:36:09.914
– into my office. He, by default is already

1075
00:36:09.914 –> 00:36:11.914
– putting himself in the one down position even

1076
00:36:11.914 –> 00:36:13.375
– before he got found out.

1077
00:36:13.719 –> 00:36:14.219
– And

1078
00:36:14.599 –> 00:36:16.519
– so there’s a climb out of that hole

1079
00:36:16.519 –> 00:36:18.680
– just to get him thinking like, Hey, dude,

1080
00:36:18.680 –> 00:36:20.440
– like you gotta start seeing yourself as a

1081
00:36:20.440 –> 00:36:22.920
– real human being as an equal, like, and

1082
00:36:22.920 –> 00:36:25.400
– so I think that process sometimes just takes

1083
00:36:25.400 –> 00:36:27.079
– time depending on who the individual is that

1084
00:36:27.079 –> 00:36:29.655
– comes into treatment. And if they’re already used

1085
00:36:29.655 –> 00:36:32.375
– to the currency of this false humility of

1086
00:36:32.375 –> 00:36:34.055
– beat myself up till the end of time,

1087
00:36:34.055 –> 00:36:35.675
– because that’s what a good man does,

1088
00:36:36.295 –> 00:36:37.974
– that takes a lot of work to try

1089
00:36:37.974 –> 00:36:39.894
– to help start turning that ship. And it’s

1090
00:36:39.894 –> 00:36:40.715
– even harder

1091
00:36:41.309 –> 00:36:43.010
– when he’s also being told

1092
00:36:43.710 –> 00:36:45.710
– you still need to learn empathy. And in

1093
00:36:45.710 –> 00:36:48.829
– his mind, empathy means humility, means I suck,

1094
00:36:48.829 –> 00:36:51.070
– means and you have to help parse that

1095
00:36:51.070 –> 00:36:53.090
– out for them and say empathy is presence.

1096
00:36:53.230 –> 00:36:56.704
– Empathy is strength. Empathy is emotional connection. It’s

1097
00:36:56.704 –> 00:36:58.885
– not beat yourself up. And Yeah. They don’t

1098
00:36:58.945 –> 00:37:00.164
– grip that very well

1099
00:37:00.465 –> 00:37:02.065
– a lot of times when they Yeah. So

1100
00:37:02.065 –> 00:37:03.744
– so so what I’m hearing you say, if

1101
00:37:03.905 –> 00:37:05.265
– and and check me if I’m right here,

1102
00:37:05.265 –> 00:37:05.765
– is

1103
00:37:06.545 –> 00:37:09.045
– through the efforts of pointing out

1104
00:37:09.789 –> 00:37:11.170
– what needs to change,

1105
00:37:11.710 –> 00:37:13.549
– that can be heard, you know, in in

1106
00:37:13.549 –> 00:37:15.809
– the in the in a container of self

1107
00:37:15.949 –> 00:37:18.849
– improvement that can be heard as, oh, wow.

1108
00:37:19.069 –> 00:37:20.909
– Now I have another 24

1109
00:37:20.909 –> 00:37:23.695
– things that I suck at. And so and

1110
00:37:23.695 –> 00:37:24.514
– so maybe

1111
00:37:24.815 –> 00:37:27.135
– being in a container where you’re not, hey,

1112
00:37:27.135 –> 00:37:28.734
– here’s this book and I’ll buy that book

1113
00:37:28.734 –> 00:37:30.755
– and fill out these five worksheet, you know.

1114
00:37:30.815 –> 00:37:33.795
– The person’s not necessarily collecting this inventory

1115
00:37:34.335 –> 00:37:36.494
– of how much they suck. And to your

1116
00:37:36.494 –> 00:37:37.875
– point on the foot side

1117
00:37:38.190 –> 00:37:40.030
– as a partner, right, rather than, oh, hey.

1118
00:37:40.030 –> 00:37:41.949
– Read all read all these books so that

1119
00:37:41.949 –> 00:37:44.269
– you can learn about how hurt you are.

1120
00:37:44.269 –> 00:37:45.789
– I I think is that what you’re basically

1121
00:37:45.789 –> 00:37:47.730
– saying is in many ways

1122
00:37:48.109 –> 00:37:50.050
– in in some ways being unplugged,

1123
00:37:50.605 –> 00:37:53.644
– you’re staying more present with what’s here now.

1124
00:37:53.644 –> 00:37:55.324
– Whereas the more and more and more you

1125
00:37:55.324 –> 00:37:55.824
– consume,

1126
00:37:56.125 –> 00:37:57.425
– you’re almost collecting

1127
00:37:58.204 –> 00:37:59.965
– potentially, you know, obviously, like, to your point,

1128
00:37:59.965 –> 00:38:01.644
– it depends on the person. Some people don’t

1129
00:38:01.644 –> 00:38:03.085
– take that stuff on. I am somebody who

1130
00:38:03.085 –> 00:38:04.364
– takes that on. Right? So if you tell

1131
00:38:04.364 –> 00:38:05.965
– me I have an empathy problem and empathy

1132
00:38:05.965 –> 00:38:07.940
– problem, I’m just adding it all to the

1133
00:38:07.940 –> 00:38:09.780
– cash. And I’m like, okay. Hey. They they

1134
00:38:09.780 –> 00:38:11.539
– know what’s next in the queue. Right? And

1135
00:38:11.539 –> 00:38:13.299
– so for me, you know, by the time

1136
00:38:13.299 –> 00:38:15.299
– I was one year in, it was just

1137
00:38:15.299 –> 00:38:15.799
– like

1138
00:38:16.179 –> 00:38:17.940
– I even felt like I just needed a

1139
00:38:17.940 –> 00:38:21.059
– college degree in recognition. Right? You already earned

1140
00:38:21.059 –> 00:38:23.105
– it. Yeah. Yes. Is that is that my

1141
00:38:23.105 –> 00:38:25.905
– understanding that. Right? So so by not being

1142
00:38:25.905 –> 00:38:28.385
– necessarily plugged into the lingo, it they’re, you

1143
00:38:28.385 –> 00:38:30.784
– know, potentially more here and now with what’s

1144
00:38:30.784 –> 00:38:33.744
– actually going on rather than have because because

1145
00:38:33.744 –> 00:38:35.760
– what to your point with not just beat

1146
00:38:35.760 –> 00:38:38.000
– the empathy thing, but I have heard people

1147
00:38:38.000 –> 00:38:40.320
– say when he learns to empathize then you

1148
00:38:40.320 –> 00:38:42.960
– will feel. And I really despise when I

1149
00:38:42.960 –> 00:38:43.860
– hear that because

1150
00:38:44.400 –> 00:38:47.360
– I don’t actually think hit that him learning

1151
00:38:47.360 –> 00:38:48.260
– how to empathize

1152
00:38:48.924 –> 00:38:51.324
– will bring trust back. I’ve seen tons of

1153
00:38:51.324 –> 00:38:53.484
– guys who have learned how to empathize and,

1154
00:38:53.484 –> 00:38:55.164
– you know, were probably pretty damn good at

1155
00:38:55.164 –> 00:38:57.005
– it actually before they met me, and their

1156
00:38:57.005 –> 00:38:59.085
– wife trust them probably less than every other

1157
00:38:59.085 –> 00:39:00.924
– guy in the group. So I think, any

1158
00:39:00.924 –> 00:39:03.005
– statements like that, energy like that, that there

1159
00:39:03.005 –> 00:39:05.400
– is this linear path to healing, I do

1160
00:39:05.400 –> 00:39:08.119
– think sometimes can slow couples down because it’s

1161
00:39:08.119 –> 00:39:10.219
– like, well, I’m waiting for these two milestones

1162
00:39:10.599 –> 00:39:12.760
– because I’ve heard these in these podcasts. When

1163
00:39:12.760 –> 00:39:14.679
– in reality, I think if those milestones were

1164
00:39:14.679 –> 00:39:17.239
– never introduced, would they have continued along the

1165
00:39:17.239 –> 00:39:19.744
– healing continuum? And I would say there’s probably

1166
00:39:19.744 –> 00:39:22.224
– factors that help with restoring trust. We we

1167
00:39:22.224 –> 00:39:24.224
– talk about a trust equation and probably don’t

1168
00:39:24.224 –> 00:39:25.585
– have time to get into it today, but

1169
00:39:25.585 –> 00:39:27.985
– there’s certain elements that tend to restore trust.

1170
00:39:27.985 –> 00:39:29.505
– But I think what you you’re saying is

1171
00:39:29.505 –> 00:39:30.545
– correct that sometimes

1172
00:39:31.320 –> 00:39:33.000
– and this is back to us as human

1173
00:39:33.000 –> 00:39:35.160
– beings thinking in black and white. We want

1174
00:39:35.160 –> 00:39:36.140
– the road map.

1175
00:39:36.440 –> 00:39:38.519
– That means this step means this step means

1176
00:39:38.519 –> 00:39:40.300
– this step. And so once we hit empathy,

1177
00:39:40.519 –> 00:39:42.199
– now we’re on to second base. And once

1178
00:39:42.199 –> 00:39:43.960
– we hit and it doesn’t really work that

1179
00:39:43.960 –> 00:39:46.140
– way. It’s more of like a series of

1180
00:39:47.065 –> 00:39:50.204
– principles that get built into the lifestyle

1181
00:39:50.585 –> 00:39:53.644
– of an authentic life, and that whole energy

1182
00:39:54.025 –> 00:39:56.425
– with those principles is what restores trust over

1183
00:39:56.425 –> 00:39:56.925
– time.

1184
00:39:57.545 –> 00:39:58.045
– And

1185
00:39:58.344 –> 00:40:00.890
– and I think that whole, like, you know,

1186
00:40:00.890 –> 00:40:03.390
– too many I think too many experts have

1187
00:40:03.930 –> 00:40:05.690
– they wanna think in that same black and

1188
00:40:05.690 –> 00:40:08.010
– white, which is, you know I mean, even

1189
00:40:08.010 –> 00:40:10.090
– us, we have our own healing journey where

1190
00:40:10.090 –> 00:40:12.110
– we put people through a series of challenges

1191
00:40:12.170 –> 00:40:14.170
– and talk through a series of principles and

1192
00:40:14.170 –> 00:40:14.670
– things.

1193
00:40:15.864 –> 00:40:18.184
– But we acknowledge that when you complete the

1194
00:40:18.184 –> 00:40:20.204
– healing journey, that’s a series of

1195
00:40:20.585 –> 00:40:23.005
– principles that are to be adopted into lifestyle

1196
00:40:23.144 –> 00:40:23.965
– rather than

1197
00:40:24.344 –> 00:40:26.664
– you you’re fixed now. Like, you’re done. You’ll

1198
00:40:26.664 –> 00:40:28.505
– you’ll I already know you’re gonna agree to

1199
00:40:28.505 –> 00:40:29.704
– that. Well, I shouldn’t say that, but I

1200
00:40:29.704 –> 00:40:31.144
– have a pretty high confidence you’re gonna agree

1201
00:40:31.144 –> 00:40:32.039
– with what I’m about about to say. When

1202
00:40:32.039 –> 00:40:34.000
– you say on your own in your own

1203
00:40:34.000 –> 00:40:34.500
– marriage,

1204
00:40:35.039 –> 00:40:37.280
– would you not say that in hindsight now

1205
00:40:37.280 –> 00:40:39.119
– looking back at all the things that were

1206
00:40:39.119 –> 00:40:41.119
– done to get you to the to a

1207
00:40:41.119 –> 00:40:43.380
– healthy place in a in relationship?

1208
00:40:43.934 –> 00:40:45.695
– Would you not say that now as I

1209
00:40:45.695 –> 00:40:46.434
– look back,

1210
00:40:46.735 –> 00:40:49.474
– it was just acquiring the skill set

1211
00:40:49.775 –> 00:40:51.394
– and the presence and,

1212
00:40:52.175 –> 00:40:54.255
– understanding and the to be in a healthy

1213
00:40:54.255 –> 00:40:56.094
– attachment? Would you not say that in the

1214
00:40:56.094 –> 00:40:59.159
– end, all that work boiled down to my

1215
00:40:59.159 –> 00:41:01.880
– wife and I honoring our differences, honoring our

1216
00:41:01.880 –> 00:41:04.619
– shortcomings, and really finding out how to be

1217
00:41:04.679 –> 00:41:08.300
– healthily attached to each other and also empathetic

1218
00:41:08.440 –> 00:41:10.280
– towards each other’s and our and our just

1219
00:41:10.280 –> 00:41:12.360
– who we are as unique individuals. And, you

1220
00:41:12.360 –> 00:41:14.184
– know, know, as I looked at all the

1221
00:41:14.184 –> 00:41:16.149
– skills we acquire, we finally got to a

1222
00:41:16.149 –> 00:41:18.114
– place where we were healthily attached. I didn’t

1223
00:41:18.114 –> 00:41:20.079
– take on her shit. She didn’t take on

1224
00:41:20.079 –> 00:41:22.044
– my shit. I never expected her anything ridiculous

1225
00:41:22.044 –> 00:41:24.009
– of her. She stopped expecting ridiculous things of

1226
00:41:24.009 –> 00:41:25.974
– me, and she understood my shortcomings. I understood

1227
00:41:25.974 –> 00:41:27.500
– hers. And we really started getting a lot

1228
00:41:27.500 –> 00:41:29.179
– of our needs met elsewhere because we’re like,

1229
00:41:29.179 –> 00:41:30.539
– you know, this is gonna be really hard

1230
00:41:30.539 –> 00:41:32.460
– for Roland to give me. I’m actually gonna

1231
00:41:32.460 –> 00:41:33.820
– go get this from my friends, and she

1232
00:41:33.820 –> 00:41:35.900
– stopped expecting me to give it. And she

1233
00:41:35.900 –> 00:41:37.340
– knows I’m trying to give it to her

1234
00:41:37.340 –> 00:41:38.940
– more. But basically, what I’m saying is it

1235
00:41:38.940 –> 00:41:40.320
– became this very healthy

1236
00:41:41.125 –> 00:41:44.405
– healthy attached, healthy honoring of of our unique

1237
00:41:44.405 –> 00:41:46.085
– life experiences and who we are, and we

1238
00:41:46.085 –> 00:41:48.244
– just dropped the expectations and all the crap.

1239
00:41:48.244 –> 00:41:49.864
– And all of a sudden, we just started

1240
00:41:50.005 –> 00:41:52.485
– getting along like healthy people. I don’t know

1241
00:41:52.485 –> 00:41:53.765
– if you agree or not, but it’s just

1242
00:41:53.765 –> 00:41:55.659
– like, as I look back, that’s really how

1243
00:41:55.659 –> 00:41:57.739
– it played out. It was not this step

1244
00:41:57.739 –> 00:42:00.300
– one, two, three, four, betrayal recovery, poof, or

1245
00:42:00.300 –> 00:42:02.480
– better. It was really sound,

1246
00:42:02.780 –> 00:42:03.280
– true,

1247
00:42:04.300 –> 00:42:05.440
– relational psychology.

1248
00:42:06.539 –> 00:42:08.059
– Yeah. I think this goes back to the

1249
00:42:08.059 –> 00:42:11.164
– whole topic we were on with identity earlier.

1250
00:42:11.465 –> 00:42:13.065
– If I look at just my own journey

1251
00:42:13.065 –> 00:42:14.204
– as you were asking,

1252
00:42:15.065 –> 00:42:17.305
– I think for me, it was over time,

1253
00:42:17.305 –> 00:42:19.565
– it was a shift from a fixed mindset

1254
00:42:20.425 –> 00:42:22.664
– to a growth mindset where I now am

1255
00:42:22.664 –> 00:42:24.684
– a person who gets to grow and learn

1256
00:42:25.219 –> 00:42:25.880
– and become

1257
00:42:26.260 –> 00:42:26.760
– until

1258
00:42:27.380 –> 00:42:29.400
– until I die. And my wife is also

1259
00:42:29.699 –> 00:42:31.380
– in the same boat, and we happen to

1260
00:42:31.380 –> 00:42:32.760
– choose to want to

1261
00:42:33.139 –> 00:42:34.599
– grow and learn together,

1262
00:42:35.299 –> 00:42:37.619
– until until we die or until something else

1263
00:42:37.619 –> 00:42:38.119
– changes.

1264
00:42:38.739 –> 00:42:40.260
– You know? But for now, that’s where it’s

1265
00:42:40.260 –> 00:42:41.845
– at. And and for me, it was not

1266
00:42:41.845 –> 00:42:44.005
– just the learning of the skills. I think

1267
00:42:44.005 –> 00:42:46.005
– there’s there is something to be said for

1268
00:42:46.005 –> 00:42:48.485
– learning skills and getting some education, and I

1269
00:42:48.485 –> 00:42:50.565
– think that education is good as long as

1270
00:42:50.565 –> 00:42:51.224
– it’s used

1271
00:42:51.605 –> 00:42:53.969
– with a growth mindset. But people use the

1272
00:42:53.969 –> 00:42:56.210
– education with a fixed mindset, and then it

1273
00:42:56.210 –> 00:42:58.210
– becomes the recipe. And if the recipe doesn’t

1274
00:42:58.210 –> 00:43:01.090
– get followed perfectly, then it’s failure. Yeah. Yeah.

1275
00:43:01.090 –> 00:43:03.190
– And so the skills are great. I think

1276
00:43:03.489 –> 00:43:04.710
– the shift in

1277
00:43:05.170 –> 00:43:07.969
– acceptance of self is what moved from fixed

1278
00:43:07.969 –> 00:43:10.765
– to growth, and that’s really what changed everything.

1279
00:43:10.765 –> 00:43:12.625
– That’s what helped restore trust faster.

1280
00:43:13.005 –> 00:43:15.085
– That’s what helps us be on a journey

1281
00:43:15.085 –> 00:43:17.724
– together. Emeritus now a spiritual journey of growth

1282
00:43:17.724 –> 00:43:20.045
– rather than me needing to complete her or

1283
00:43:20.045 –> 00:43:22.765
– vice versa. Yeah. Well said. So well said.

1284
00:43:22.765 –> 00:43:24.545
– So, Tyler, I’d love to end

1285
00:43:24.980 –> 00:43:26.579
– with just some calls to action for the

1286
00:43:26.579 –> 00:43:28.260
– couples listening to this or the men listening

1287
00:43:28.260 –> 00:43:30.679
– to this or the women listening to this.

1288
00:43:31.059 –> 00:43:33.539
– From this whole thing of identity and there’s

1289
00:43:33.539 –> 00:43:36.339
– the messiness of this whole road, let’s just

1290
00:43:36.339 –> 00:43:37.940
– let’s just both take a time and leave

1291
00:43:37.940 –> 00:43:40.144
– them with how to summarize really this whole

1292
00:43:40.144 –> 00:43:42.224
– podcast into into some way that they can

1293
00:43:42.224 –> 00:43:44.224
– ponder and and and hopefully put into some

1294
00:43:44.224 –> 00:43:46.164
– some useful action. I’ll go first.

1295
00:43:46.864 –> 00:43:48.304
– What I would say is, you know, if

1296
00:43:48.304 –> 00:43:49.744
– if I had to have you guys take

1297
00:43:49.744 –> 00:43:52.144
– one thing away from Tyler and my our

1298
00:43:52.144 –> 00:43:53.045
– discussion today,

1299
00:43:54.150 –> 00:43:56.309
– Remember what you’re doing. What are we doing

1300
00:43:56.309 –> 00:43:58.150
– here? You know, I always thought we were

1301
00:43:58.150 –> 00:44:00.309
– trying to create a healthy guy who was

1302
00:44:00.309 –> 00:44:03.269
– in integrity and knew who he was and

1303
00:44:03.269 –> 00:44:05.130
– understood the the difference between,

1304
00:44:05.750 –> 00:44:06.650
– you know, pathological

1305
00:44:07.109 –> 00:44:09.654
– living and and authentic living. Right? That’s what

1306
00:44:09.654 –> 00:44:11.094
– I thought we were doing. I thought we

1307
00:44:11.094 –> 00:44:12.534
– were trying and then I thought we were

1308
00:44:12.534 –> 00:44:15.174
– trying to have him learn about you and

1309
00:44:15.174 –> 00:44:16.694
– learn what what has done to you, how

1310
00:44:16.694 –> 00:44:19.094
– this feels, and what would feel good. Right?

1311
00:44:19.094 –> 00:44:21.014
– And then and then, ultimately, I thought we

1312
00:44:21.014 –> 00:44:22.454
– were trying to thrive as a couple. I

1313
00:44:22.454 –> 00:44:23.674
– thought we were trying to

1314
00:44:24.019 –> 00:44:26.019
– trying to get out of this suffering. I

1315
00:44:26.019 –> 00:44:28.579
– mean, ages couples. I’ve watched them. I mean,

1316
00:44:28.579 –> 00:44:30.420
– it they’ll the it puts, you know, in

1317
00:44:30.420 –> 00:44:32.359
– three years, they’ll age fifteen years

1318
00:44:32.900 –> 00:44:35.619
– from the stress. I mean, life is too

1319
00:44:35.619 –> 00:44:37.619
– short for this. So I just would ask

1320
00:44:37.619 –> 00:44:39.494
– all the couples, what are we doing? Are

1321
00:44:39.494 –> 00:44:41.815
– we trying to just be a betrayed partner

1322
00:44:41.815 –> 00:44:43.194
– and a sex addict forever

1323
00:44:43.734 –> 00:44:44.315
– and check-in

1324
00:44:45.414 –> 00:44:48.534
– and spy on people’s stuff and monitor this

1325
00:44:48.534 –> 00:44:51.014
– and check that? And, I mean, come on.

1326
00:44:51.014 –> 00:44:53.019
– That is just no way to live in

1327
00:44:53.019 –> 00:44:54.780
– my opinion. So, what I would just say

1328
00:44:54.780 –> 00:44:56.860
– back to the couples is, to me, if

1329
00:44:56.860 –> 00:44:58.400
– you’re gonna make the decision

1330
00:44:59.099 –> 00:45:01.099
– to try to save this marriage because it’s

1331
00:45:01.099 –> 00:45:03.579
– gonna be the hardest freaking thing you’re ever

1332
00:45:03.579 –> 00:45:06.059
– gonna do. To me, if you’re gonna embark

1333
00:45:06.059 –> 00:45:08.059
– on this journey and spend the money

1334
00:45:08.675 –> 00:45:10.295
– I mean, the it is gonna cost

1335
00:45:10.594 –> 00:45:11.655
– a lot of money.

1336
00:45:12.034 –> 00:45:13.094
– Spend the time.

1337
00:45:13.554 –> 00:45:15.715
– I would really just ask you, are you

1338
00:45:15.715 –> 00:45:18.195
– actually I mean, look at the science. The

1339
00:45:18.195 –> 00:45:19.795
– Gottman’s, like I said, go in the Gottman’s

1340
00:45:19.795 –> 00:45:21.474
– and just look what the Gottman’s say about

1341
00:45:21.474 –> 00:45:24.114
– a healthy relation. Read Stan Tacken stuff and

1342
00:45:24.114 –> 00:45:25.869
– his, you know, the brain on love. I

1343
00:45:25.869 –> 00:45:28.510
– just ask yourself, are we acting and working

1344
00:45:28.510 –> 00:45:30.750
– towards being a healthy couple, or is there

1345
00:45:30.750 –> 00:45:31.650
– just justice

1346
00:45:32.110 –> 00:45:34.429
– crap going on and tick for tack and

1347
00:45:34.429 –> 00:45:35.789
– you need to do this, and then I’ll

1348
00:45:35.789 –> 00:45:38.364
– feel like, to me, when I look at

1349
00:45:38.364 –> 00:45:40.045
– that dynamic, I just I just I just

1350
00:45:40.045 –> 00:45:41.964
– see in marriage is never gonna thrive. I

1351
00:45:41.964 –> 00:45:43.085
– I just I would just ask you go

1352
00:45:43.085 –> 00:45:45.484
– back to sound true relational psychology. What does

1353
00:45:45.484 –> 00:45:46.704
– it say about two people

1354
00:45:47.244 –> 00:45:49.585
– thriving together? And I would just ask yourselves,

1355
00:45:49.949 –> 00:45:52.589
– are we acting or working towards a place

1356
00:45:52.589 –> 00:45:54.109
– where we’re gonna act like that with each

1357
00:45:54.109 –> 00:45:56.190
– other? Rather, are we getting caught up in

1358
00:45:56.190 –> 00:45:57.789
– all these milestones? Because I do just you

1359
00:45:57.789 –> 00:45:59.070
– know, that’s that’s the whole point of this

1360
00:45:59.070 –> 00:46:00.750
– identity thing is what are we doing? Are

1361
00:46:00.750 –> 00:46:02.994
– we trying to win some sort of betrayal

1362
00:46:02.994 –> 00:46:05.074
– recovery contest here or something? Or are we

1363
00:46:05.074 –> 00:46:07.315
– just two complex human beings who are doing

1364
00:46:07.315 –> 00:46:08.514
– the best we can? I think we just

1365
00:46:08.514 –> 00:46:10.054
– we just lose sight of

1366
00:46:10.514 –> 00:46:12.355
– of the of of what life is all

1367
00:46:12.355 –> 00:46:13.954
– about, and I I think we just appear

1368
00:46:13.954 –> 00:46:15.094
– too caught up in

1369
00:46:15.480 –> 00:46:17.239
– this stuff. Yeah. And I would just ask

1370
00:46:17.239 –> 00:46:18.920
– yourself if that’s where you’re gonna be. I

1371
00:46:18.920 –> 00:46:20.760
– don’t know. I would really just reset and

1372
00:46:20.760 –> 00:46:22.840
– ask, you know, is is this thing gonna

1373
00:46:22.840 –> 00:46:24.519
– work? And and, again, at any point in

1374
00:46:24.519 –> 00:46:26.059
– time, you guys could just stop

1375
00:46:26.360 –> 00:46:28.565
– and switch course. Kinda like Tyler said. It’s

1376
00:46:28.565 –> 00:46:29.924
– it’s I I mean, Tyler, I had the

1377
00:46:29.924 –> 00:46:31.684
– same moment with my wife, that light bulb

1378
00:46:31.684 –> 00:46:33.065
– moment where we just decided,

1379
00:46:33.605 –> 00:46:35.844
– let’s just come together. I’m tired of hating

1380
00:46:35.844 –> 00:46:38.724
– each other. Tired of worrying. I’m tired of

1381
00:46:38.724 –> 00:46:40.724
– fighting. I’m tired of you know, I’m just

1382
00:46:40.724 –> 00:46:42.590
– tired of it. And we just made this

1383
00:46:42.590 –> 00:46:44.590
– decision, like, let’s just be a couple again.

1384
00:46:44.590 –> 00:46:46.829
– I’m tired of this. Now for everybody listening,

1385
00:46:46.829 –> 00:46:49.250
– that was at year 3.4.

1386
00:46:49.309 –> 00:46:51.309
– So just so everybody understands, it was not

1387
00:46:51.309 –> 00:46:53.489
– like she did that, like, at month two.

1388
00:46:54.030 –> 00:46:55.949
– That was, you know, I she had to

1389
00:46:55.949 –> 00:46:58.555
– see me try and try and try and

1390
00:46:58.555 –> 00:47:00.235
– try and try. But then one day, I

1391
00:47:00.235 –> 00:47:01.994
– saw her trying. She saw me trying. It

1392
00:47:01.994 –> 00:47:03.594
– was like, what are we doing? We just

1393
00:47:03.594 –> 00:47:05.994
– fall in love again. And, that was that.

1394
00:47:05.994 –> 00:47:08.075
– So, then then things just kinda took a

1395
00:47:08.075 –> 00:47:09.835
– different direction. So, Chad, what would you leave

1396
00:47:09.835 –> 00:47:10.894
– the couple with today?

1397
00:47:11.199 –> 00:47:12.800
– Yeah. Roland, I first, I wanna say that

1398
00:47:12.800 –> 00:47:14.079
– a lot of people listening to what you

1399
00:47:14.079 –> 00:47:15.840
– just said probably had a hard time hearing

1400
00:47:15.840 –> 00:47:17.599
– that, but I think there’s I know that.

1401
00:47:17.760 –> 00:47:19.199
– There’s a lot of truth in what you

1402
00:47:19.199 –> 00:47:21.599
– said there, and and there’s a process involved

1403
00:47:21.599 –> 00:47:22.880
– in getting there. But, yes, I agree with

1404
00:47:22.880 –> 00:47:24.239
– you a 100%. The the thing that I

1405
00:47:24.239 –> 00:47:26.824
– would probably add is anyone listening right now,

1406
00:47:26.824 –> 00:47:28.424
– you might be in a spot where you

1407
00:47:28.424 –> 00:47:30.284
– relate to being in that really dark place.

1408
00:47:30.664 –> 00:47:32.184
– There is a way out of it, and

1409
00:47:32.184 –> 00:47:33.385
– the way out of it is to take

1410
00:47:33.385 –> 00:47:34.924
– ownership for your own life.

1411
00:47:35.224 –> 00:47:35.724
– And

1412
00:47:36.105 –> 00:47:37.784
– that ownership for your own life is a

1413
00:47:37.784 –> 00:47:38.605
– process of

1414
00:47:39.099 –> 00:47:40.639
– uncovering and accepting

1415
00:47:41.260 –> 00:47:43.039
– the actual truth of who you are

1416
00:47:43.420 –> 00:47:45.900
– and then manifesting the truth of who you

1417
00:47:45.900 –> 00:47:48.300
– are into the world and the people who

1418
00:47:48.300 –> 00:47:50.139
– see you and are meant to be with

1419
00:47:50.139 –> 00:47:52.239
– you will stay. And the people who aren’t

1420
00:47:52.565 –> 00:47:53.625
– will have to move.

1421
00:47:54.085 –> 00:47:55.224
– But there’s happiness

1422
00:47:56.085 –> 00:47:58.005
– in uncovering the truth about who you are

1423
00:47:58.005 –> 00:47:59.445
– and liking what you see in the mirror.

1424
00:47:59.445 –> 00:48:01.045
– And if you do that, that’s the best

1425
00:48:01.045 –> 00:48:03.465
– shot you have for whatever relationship you’re in.

1426
00:48:03.525 –> 00:48:05.445
– Yeah. So we’ll set. So we’ll set. And

1427
00:48:05.445 –> 00:48:07.465
– I do wanna put a little asterisk on

1428
00:48:07.630 –> 00:48:09.630
– for the younger couples listening to this who

1429
00:48:09.630 –> 00:48:12.130
– are in their first year for six months.

1430
00:48:12.590 –> 00:48:14.190
– A lot of what was said was probably

1431
00:48:14.190 –> 00:48:15.869
– hard to hear today because, you know, it

1432
00:48:15.869 –> 00:48:17.889
– really you know, when we’re talking about identity,

1433
00:48:18.109 –> 00:48:19.630
– you know, we are kind of speaking a

1434
00:48:19.630 –> 00:48:21.795
– little bit more to an advanced couple through

1435
00:48:21.795 –> 00:48:23.234
– this. Right? This is the this is the

1436
00:48:23.234 –> 00:48:26.034
– couple who’s, you know, eight plus year plus

1437
00:48