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– Conviction.

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– We all know that conviction is what separates

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– those who achieve great things and those who

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– achieve average things. In a recovery, all of

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– us are trying to achieve rapid and superior

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– results.

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– But do you have conviction in your recovery?

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– That’s what we talk about in today’s episode.

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– You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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– for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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– This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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– recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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– high achiever.

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– I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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– Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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– men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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– more information about joining our group or attending

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– our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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– And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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– So, Dale, this is a great I’m gonna

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– have you tee up this conversation. I’m gonna

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– tell the audience real quickly why I was

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– so excited about it. I believe in conviction

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– so deeply, which is kinda funny because the

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– word mean almost means that. But I really

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– believe it’s the key to recovery. I really

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– believe it’s the key to success in pretty

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– much any area of your life. If you’re

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– not convicted,

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– I think you’re doing whatever you’re doing at

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– a fraction of what you could do it

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– at. So if saving your marriage or recovering

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– and getting these compulsive behaviors out of your

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– life is important to you, conviction is so

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– necessary. Here is the challenge though, and I

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– love that you proposed this topic because

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– guys like us, we are just dangerous and

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– a pain in the ass to be with.

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– Let’s just be honest. We reek of entitlement

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– and the kind of capitalistic

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– world more or less praises us for being

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– that way and in many ways makes us

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– that way, wants us to be that way.

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– I would say, you know, narcissistic traits, you

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– know, when you look at the the actual

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– categories of MPD, well, while none of my

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– guys have it,

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– shoot, when I read those, I’m like, I

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– don’t know, man. I I definitely act that

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– way quite often. There’s a lot of grandiosity,

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– a lot of me, my, and my thinking.

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– You know, this is just in successful male

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– culture. It’s taught. We kind of geek out

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– on each other with it. It’s like, oh,

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– yeah. Look at us. We’re so awesome.

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– But again, that’s not conviction. And I think

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– we need to be very careful understanding the

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– difference between the two and

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– especially for today’s topic, what that has to

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– do with recovery,

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– relational healing. Dale, you’ll go ahead and do

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– your little intro. Is is what I said

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– accurate?

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– That was Please stop because you’re taking away

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– my whole spiel, man. Like, I’m not gonna

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– have anything to talk about. Yeah. We will.

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– But, yeah, speak to it. What’s your take

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– on why you felt so passionate on why

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– you wanted to bring this? So yeah. So

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– I’m passionate about a lot of things. I’m

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– passionate about conviction, and I’m passionate about entitlement

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– because I’m passionate about things that are often

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– misconstrued

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– and also

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– are not productive. They’re alienating.

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– Yes.

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– Alienation is what drives people apart, does not

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– bring them together.

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– So the word conviction,

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– which is interesting to me because if you

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– look it up, it’s like this deeply held

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– belief.

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– But in our society, for some, we apply

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– conviction to mean often often

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– the connotation

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– is that I have

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– a superior moral compass. Yes, ma’am. I am

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– holier than thou.

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– I am going to heaven and you are

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– going to hell.

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– Now I’m not here to be a a

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– theologist because I’m not trained to be one,

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– nor am I here to put down any

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– kind of religiosity.

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– I’m here because I think

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– that unless we get clear on how we

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– wanna live our life and how we wanna

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– live it for ourselves,

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– and to think that we’re doing this because

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– that person

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– told me this is the right way to

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– do it, I just don’t think it works.

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– Yeah. Buy in. Buy in. It’s a you

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– and I talked about this before

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– we got on the show, we talked last

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– week, we talked about, if you’re not bought

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– in, can you even go to the finish

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– line with this? If there’s not massive of

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– levels of buy in,

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– this is no joke. I mean, what you’ve

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– done, you know, for the married men listening

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– to this, what you’ve done to your wife,

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– I mean,

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– I don’t know. I’m not sure there’s a

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– lot worse to do.

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– And what society has done to you when

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– it comes to the objectification of women and

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– glamorizing

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– the benefits of being able to conquer women,

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– This is no joke. This is going to

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– take it’s a full court press. There’s nothing

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– harder. I’ve I’ve built and scaled multimillion dollar

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– businesses, sold them. I’ve never done anything harder

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– than this recovery process. And I’m telling you

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– right now, in the first year and a

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– half, it was a waste of time because

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– I was not convicted. I was just following

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– the rules,

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– trying to do what was being told to

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– me. I was not coming from a place

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– of buy in. I wasn’t coming from a

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– place of of commitment. I wasn’t coming from

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– a place of I want this for my

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– life, and I’m excited to get there whether

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– my wife leaves me or not. That level

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– of conviction. And I’m not just saying because

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– a lot of guys say that. Oh, even

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– if my wife left me, I’d keep doing

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– this. But no. No. No. Stop for a

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– second. Don’t just say that because that sounds

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– all again, I think that’s the problem is,

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– like, why are you saying that though? Do

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– you really believe this next rendition of you

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– is going to be the one that you

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– wanna live? Whether she comes with you or

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– not, do you believe that? So before we

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– dive in, speak to,

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– first, high achieving men

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– and how

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– the whole

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– definition

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– of conviction has gotten so corrupted by, yes,

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– entitlement,

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– me, my, my self centered thinking, grandiose sense

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– of self. Talk to you about how this

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– sneaks in because again, none of those things

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– are easy to hear, Dale. I don’t wanna

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– be called any of those things. But the

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– truth is, if I’m completely honest,

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– those traits certainly were sold to me. They

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– appeal to me and I definitely feel safer

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– and more powerful when I use them. So

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– talk to us a little bit about the

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– dangers of this and how it sneaks up

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– on men, and and do it in a

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– because you’re so good at this. Do it

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– in a compassionate way that basically, like, there’s

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– a reason why we’re acting this way. It’s

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– not to be some a hole. I mean,

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– we’re doing it because we believe it’s actually

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– taking us to where we wanna go. No.

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– So so I’m so the opposite of this

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– pathologizing,

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– stigmatizing,

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– shame somebody into being something or doing something

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– or stop doing something. First of all, I

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– think it’s BS. It doesn’t work. And second

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– of all, I think we’re all very flawed

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– human beings.

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– And at some stage, we took wrong turns.

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– Right? So but I wanna talk about this

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– thing, the the entitlement part. This is the

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– interesting part to me in terms of the

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– buy in.

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– In this society, okay, call it a patriarchy.

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– I, you know, like, I’m not here to

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– do a feminist. I mean, it is one.

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– Let’s be real. In a fetish, it is

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– what it is. Right? So so so, yes,

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– men get paid more money, men this, men

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– that. You know? But I’m not here to

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– talk about that either. I’m here to talk

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– about if we talk about entitlement,

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– there’s certain connotations

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– to entitlement

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– that just don’t align

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– with how

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– one

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– sees oneself,

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– and I think it becomes somewhat of an

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– illusion

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– that then dot dot dot culminates in misery.

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– So we’re really talking about

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– misery,

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– not necessarily the misery that you’ve been told

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– you’re putting upon somebody else, and you just

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– spoke to that role and beautifully in terms

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– of betrayed partners, but the misery that one

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– feels when one is with oneself and recognizes

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– that the things that they’re seeing and they’re

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– saying are really an illusion. Mhmm. For example,

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– entitlement,

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– grandiosity.

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– When we think about entitlement, we think about

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– big.

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– This is a big person. Mhmm. This is

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– the CFO.

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– This is the head honcho.

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– This is the big man on campus, BMOC.

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– Okay? Think about these household terms. Right? This

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– is the boss. Mhmm. Big.

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– Entitled.

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– Get out of the way. I cut the

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– line. Mhmm. I’m in first class.

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– I make the rules, by the way. You

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– don’t follow them, you’re fired. Okay? So talking

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– about high achieving that. So, yes, by definition,

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– I do make the rules. And they were

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– told,

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– as a young person, make sure you keep

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– working hard until you’re in that position too.

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– So this is it’s not that this is

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– just our privilege. It was get here because

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– you’ll be unhappy until you are the one

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– who dictates the rules. Right? That’s that’s the

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– promise. So at least that was the promise

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– that was sold to me was don’t settle

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– until no one’s telling you what to do.

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– And so I did that, but it came

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– with some baggage, didn’t it? Yeah. I get

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– that, you know. We were in a culture,

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– man. We were not raised in isolation.

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– And so that’s why I think that we

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– need to come together and decide what the

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– buy in is because we were wired to

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– behave in a certain way. Okay? And I

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– think that that’s all of us.

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00:08:39.149 –> 00:08:41.089
– In terms though of the contradiction,

249
00:08:41.870 –> 00:08:44.269
– what I see is the problem with the

250
00:08:44.269 –> 00:08:44.769
– entitlement

251
00:08:45.095 –> 00:08:47.514
– Is that even though it’s termed as grandiose

252
00:08:47.654 –> 00:08:50.134
– and big and I am the big man

253
00:08:50.134 –> 00:08:50.875
– on campus,

254
00:08:51.254 –> 00:08:53.355
– in actuality if you break it down,

255
00:08:53.815 –> 00:08:57.014
– compared to conviction, it’s rather small. And here’s

256
00:08:57.014 –> 00:08:58.960
– what I posit. And I just put it

257
00:08:58.960 –> 00:09:00.800
– out there because am I the end all

258
00:09:00.800 –> 00:09:02.000
– and the be all? No. This is a

259
00:09:02.000 –> 00:09:02.500
– conversation.

260
00:09:02.960 –> 00:09:05.379
– Yes? Okay. And I so welcome,

261
00:09:06.000 –> 00:09:07.759
– debate because I think that that’s what we

262
00:09:07.759 –> 00:09:09.460
– need to have, respectful debate.

263
00:09:09.920 –> 00:09:10.420
– Entitlement

264
00:09:11.225 –> 00:09:13.725
– comes down to it. It’s actually very small.

265
00:09:14.345 –> 00:09:15.884
– It’s short term gratification.

266
00:09:16.665 –> 00:09:17.644
– I want this.

267
00:09:18.105 –> 00:09:19.325
– I want this now.

268
00:09:19.945 –> 00:09:22.585
– Okay? So it’s short term gratification versus long

269
00:09:22.585 –> 00:09:24.809
– term gratification. I go to the gym. I

270
00:09:24.809 –> 00:09:26.009
– I go to the gym the next day.

271
00:09:26.009 –> 00:09:27.629
– I go to the gym the next day.

272
00:09:27.769 –> 00:09:29.690
– Maybe in three months, I’ll start to see

273
00:09:29.690 –> 00:09:32.409
– some biceps. Right? I think entitlement is also

274
00:09:32.409 –> 00:09:35.049
– small in terms of that it’s singular. Yeah.

275
00:09:35.049 –> 00:09:37.389
– I and me, which you already said,

276
00:09:37.825 –> 00:09:38.325
– versus

277
00:09:39.105 –> 00:09:39.605
– we,

278
00:09:40.065 –> 00:09:40.565
– singular,

279
00:09:40.945 –> 00:09:41.445
– small,

280
00:09:41.904 –> 00:09:42.964
– narrow, myopic.

281
00:09:43.424 –> 00:09:45.345
– And so when one starts to think that

282
00:09:45.345 –> 00:09:48.245
– they’re entitled or they’re big or they’re grandiose,

283
00:09:49.424 –> 00:09:50.164
– in actuality,

284
00:09:51.029 –> 00:09:51.769
– the behaviors

285
00:09:52.149 –> 00:09:52.970
– come down

286
00:09:53.350 –> 00:09:54.730
– to being short term,

287
00:09:55.110 –> 00:09:56.009
– pay to play,

288
00:09:56.789 –> 00:09:57.769
– low investment

289
00:09:58.070 –> 00:09:58.570
– behaviors

290
00:09:59.029 –> 00:10:00.649
– versus a four zero one k

291
00:10:01.029 –> 00:10:01.529
– versus

292
00:10:03.589 –> 00:10:04.490
– long term

293
00:10:05.350 –> 00:10:05.850
– ROI

294
00:10:06.764 –> 00:10:10.304
– and delayed gratification which is bigger. Now again,

295
00:10:10.365 –> 00:10:13.184
– that’s not a moral compass, it’s a contradiction.

296
00:10:13.644 –> 00:10:16.384
– Notice, I am big, I am entitled,

297
00:10:16.924 –> 00:10:18.384
– I get to make the rules.

298
00:10:18.684 –> 00:10:19.184
– However,

299
00:10:19.644 –> 00:10:21.745
– I’m playing kinda small.

300
00:10:22.169 –> 00:10:24.809
– So how do I reconcile that in my

301
00:10:24.809 –> 00:10:28.009
– mind if my behaviors are of a small

302
00:10:28.009 –> 00:10:30.330
– nature? Mhmm. I also think it’s interesting because

303
00:10:30.330 –> 00:10:33.049
– an inner circle behavior is the smallest one.

304
00:10:33.049 –> 00:10:35.289
– Mhmm. Okay? You know, yes, that’s a CSAT

305
00:10:35.289 –> 00:10:38.184
– world, but the bigger behaviors are bigger. Right?

306
00:10:38.804 –> 00:10:40.504
– What do I do in my mind

307
00:10:41.044 –> 00:10:43.205
– when I look in the mirror or I

308
00:10:43.205 –> 00:10:45.044
– go to sleep at night and I go,

309
00:10:45.044 –> 00:10:46.904
– wow, I think I’m really big.

310
00:10:47.524 –> 00:10:49.065
– I think I’m really important.

311
00:10:50.000 –> 00:10:52.179
– I think I’m really successful,

312
00:10:52.879 –> 00:10:54.019
– but my behaviors

313
00:10:55.120 –> 00:10:56.419
– are so small,

314
00:10:57.120 –> 00:10:59.440
– almost like a child. I want, I want,

315
00:10:59.440 –> 00:11:02.320
– I want. Not a judgment. Mhmm. Versus an

316
00:11:02.320 –> 00:11:02.820
– adult.

317
00:11:03.605 –> 00:11:05.304
– I have to come up with a resume.

318
00:11:05.365 –> 00:11:06.985
– I have to go on the job

319
00:11:07.365 –> 00:11:09.065
– interview, then I have to get the job,

320
00:11:09.125 –> 00:11:11.065
– and then I have to keep it.

321
00:11:11.524 –> 00:11:13.204
– Because what you said and just so for

322
00:11:13.204 –> 00:11:15.365
– the guys listening to this, like, I think

323
00:11:15.365 –> 00:11:17.445
– the reason that we’re so blind to it

324
00:11:17.445 –> 00:11:21.169
– is anytime the tribe really normalizes something and

325
00:11:21.169 –> 00:11:23.029
– talks about it like it’s a positive,

326
00:11:23.730 –> 00:11:25.970
– we stop really looking at it like it

327
00:11:25.970 –> 00:11:28.370
– has any negative to it. And so, you

328
00:11:28.370 –> 00:11:30.284
– know, it’s really hard sometimes to be like,

329
00:11:30.684 –> 00:11:32.444
– oh, I don’t know if that’s small behavior

330
00:11:32.444 –> 00:11:35.084
– because on Instagram, everyone is kind of, oh,

331
00:11:35.084 –> 00:11:36.845
– go get your jet, go get your this,

332
00:11:36.845 –> 00:11:38.684
– go take go don’t don’t wait around. No

333
00:11:38.684 –> 00:11:39.964
– one’s gonna give it to you. Go take

334
00:11:39.964 –> 00:11:41.884
– it. But again, I think we’re talking about

335
00:11:41.884 –> 00:11:44.204
– really two different things here. You know, are

336
00:11:44.204 –> 00:11:45.264
– those influencers

337
00:11:46.259 –> 00:11:48.420
– talking about your wife? Are they talking about

338
00:11:48.420 –> 00:11:51.139
– integrity? Are they talking so so again, we’re

339
00:11:51.139 –> 00:11:52.759
– we’re not judging, demonizing,

340
00:11:53.060 –> 00:11:55.560
– polarizing. It’s just understanding that

341
00:11:56.100 –> 00:11:59.355
– when you think about your life, your success,

342
00:11:59.355 –> 00:12:02.254
– your pleasure, your accomplishments, your future,

343
00:12:03.034 –> 00:12:05.754
– what you have, what you’ve done, if that

344
00:12:05.754 –> 00:12:07.534
– is hogging your thinking.

345
00:12:07.835 –> 00:12:09.355
– I mean, come on guys. For a lot

346
00:12:09.355 –> 00:12:10.955
– of you listening to this, you guys have

347
00:12:10.955 –> 00:12:13.410
– kids and have had, you know, that’s kinda

348
00:12:13.410 –> 00:12:15.250
– what a three year old, four year old,

349
00:12:15.250 –> 00:12:17.090
– you know. You guys remember five? It’s it’s

350
00:12:17.090 –> 00:12:18.690
– like, it’s a really annoying age because they

351
00:12:18.690 –> 00:12:20.370
– haven’t quite gone to school and been humbled

352
00:12:20.370 –> 00:12:21.970
– yet. And they, you know, it’s like you’re

353
00:12:21.970 –> 00:12:23.970
– playing baseball. It’s like, no way. Actually, I

354
00:12:23.970 –> 00:12:26.290
– can run to home. You can’t run to

355
00:12:26.290 –> 00:12:27.754
– home. And you’re looking at a kid like,

356
00:12:27.754 –> 00:12:29.754
– what are you talking about? Of course, like,

357
00:12:29.754 –> 00:12:31.754
– they come up with these rules because they’re

358
00:12:31.754 –> 00:12:33.434
– trying to invent a game where they can’t

359
00:12:33.434 –> 00:12:33.934
– lose.

360
00:12:34.315 –> 00:12:37.535
– And, in their little delusional world, that’s entirely

361
00:12:37.995 –> 00:12:38.495
– acceptable.

362
00:12:39.129 –> 00:12:41.129
– That only I can get home runs. You

363
00:12:41.129 –> 00:12:43.870
– actually can’t you can’t run past first base.

364
00:12:44.169 –> 00:12:45.929
– And to us, it’s like, what? What do

365
00:12:45.929 –> 00:12:47.049
– you what do you mean? And we always

366
00:12:47.049 –> 00:12:48.809
– make fun of the kid. But again, I

367
00:12:48.809 –> 00:12:50.169
– know it’s kind of a funny analogy, but

368
00:12:50.169 –> 00:12:52.509
– that’s really what we’re talking about is

369
00:12:53.054 –> 00:12:55.695
– I’m not saying that that winning’s bad, money’s

370
00:12:55.695 –> 00:12:57.934
– bad, going on an awesome vacation’s bad. That’s

371
00:12:57.934 –> 00:12:59.615
– not what we’re saying here. It’s just when

372
00:12:59.615 –> 00:13:01.215
– you look at the percentage of what your

373
00:13:01.215 –> 00:13:05.134
– brain thinks about. If it’s my like me,

374
00:13:05.134 –> 00:13:07.519
– my, my thinking and this is where betrayal

375
00:13:07.660 –> 00:13:09.680
– dynamics become really challenging is

376
00:13:10.379 –> 00:13:12.399
– I don’t like to think about

377
00:13:12.860 –> 00:13:15.740
– you and your pain and what and and

378
00:13:15.740 –> 00:13:17.660
– the thing you know, that’s not something I

379
00:13:17.660 –> 00:13:20.379
– enjoy thinking about. I’m used to thinking 90%

380
00:13:20.379 –> 00:13:22.375
– of the time about my life, my career,

381
00:13:22.375 –> 00:13:24.615
– and what I’m building. And now you’re basically

382
00:13:24.615 –> 00:13:27.514
– asking me to consider you, consider the family,

383
00:13:27.894 –> 00:13:29.195
– consider the temporary

384
00:13:29.575 –> 00:13:31.414
– sacrifices that I need to now do so

385
00:13:31.414 –> 00:13:32.695
– that we get you know, it’s a type

386
00:13:32.695 –> 00:13:34.634
– of thinking that we associate

387
00:13:35.014 –> 00:13:35.995
– with weakness

388
00:13:36.889 –> 00:13:38.490
– slow. And so I think that’s what Dale

389
00:13:38.490 –> 00:13:40.250
– and I are trying to come across here

390
00:13:40.250 –> 00:13:41.929
– is we’re not trying to make any sort

391
00:13:41.929 –> 00:13:43.549
– of judgments. That’s what it would it’s just

392
00:13:43.610 –> 00:13:45.450
– you do need to understand that if that

393
00:13:45.450 –> 00:13:48.649
– thinking accomplishes one thing, it will make your

394
00:13:48.649 –> 00:13:51.129
– life better. It will make your future better.

395
00:13:51.129 –> 00:13:52.514
– It will make your and I and I

396
00:13:52.514 –> 00:13:55.174
– think the challenge is if there’s no room

397
00:13:55.235 –> 00:13:58.054
– for their life, their feelings, their perspectives,

398
00:13:58.514 –> 00:14:00.194
– what’s that mean? I think when you look

399
00:14:00.194 –> 00:14:02.434
– at these men, I’m not accusing you of

400
00:14:02.434 –> 00:14:04.355
– not caring, but I am just saying your

401
00:14:04.355 –> 00:14:06.434
– mind spends a lot of time thinking about

402
00:14:06.434 –> 00:14:08.059
– your agenda, your

403
00:14:08.600 –> 00:14:10.759
– life, and there’s this whole provider thing that

404
00:14:10.759 –> 00:14:13.100
– we like to say as, oh, I’m providing.

405
00:14:13.160 –> 00:14:14.519
– I’m doing this for the you look at

406
00:14:14.519 –> 00:14:16.279
– the house you guys live in. And, and

407
00:14:16.279 –> 00:14:18.279
– again, you guys can keep selling yourself on

408
00:14:18.279 –> 00:14:21.480
– that story that the you thinking is mutually

409
00:14:21.480 –> 00:14:23.934
– beneficial. But how about you ask? How about

410
00:14:23.934 –> 00:14:25.534
– you, you know, I I think that’s the

411
00:14:25.534 –> 00:14:27.934
– problem is, again, isn’t that coming right back

412
00:14:27.934 –> 00:14:29.774
– to the same thing, Dale? Like, like, look

413
00:14:29.774 –> 00:14:32.174
– at everything I provide. Isn’t that you’re basically

414
00:14:32.174 –> 00:14:34.434
– saying subscribe to my definition

415
00:14:34.975 –> 00:14:36.654
– of being a good father or a good

416
00:14:36.735 –> 00:14:39.110
– you know, it’s basically, like, don’t discredit me

417
00:14:39.110 –> 00:14:40.710
– because look at all I’ve done. Whereas when

418
00:14:40.710 –> 00:14:42.070
– you ask them, my wife told me the

419
00:14:42.070 –> 00:14:44.149
– same thing. She said, I could give away

420
00:14:44.149 –> 00:14:45.830
– all of this if it meant that you

421
00:14:45.830 –> 00:14:48.009
– didn’t do what you did to me. Yeah.

422
00:14:48.149 –> 00:14:50.070
– So I hear that. And, you know, it’s

423
00:14:50.070 –> 00:14:52.404
– like, I think that that’s all well and

424
00:14:52.404 –> 00:14:54.264
– good and that it would be very, very

425
00:14:54.485 –> 00:14:56.264
– easy for anybody listening

426
00:14:56.725 –> 00:14:58.584
– to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, intellectually

427
00:14:58.964 –> 00:14:59.865
– I get that.

428
00:15:00.565 –> 00:15:03.944
– I intellectually I get that. But I also,

429
00:15:04.559 –> 00:15:06.799
– when I wanna do this, I wanna do

430
00:15:06.799 –> 00:15:09.200
– this. And it comes down to, I don’t

431
00:15:09.200 –> 00:15:10.660
– know that it’s gonna work.

432
00:15:11.120 –> 00:15:12.179
– It would be great

433
00:15:12.639 –> 00:15:15.840
– to do it for somebody else. Yes. It’s

434
00:15:15.840 –> 00:15:18.785
– great to do things for your kids, put

435
00:15:18.785 –> 00:15:20.245
– away their college tuition,

436
00:15:20.625 –> 00:15:22.384
– right, in order to make sure that they

437
00:15:22.384 –> 00:15:25.105
– have that. However, I do think that the

438
00:15:25.105 –> 00:15:26.485
– buy in has to be between

439
00:15:26.785 –> 00:15:29.024
– me and me. So bridge the gap then

440
00:15:29.024 –> 00:15:30.865
– there because that’s really what we’re talking about

441
00:15:30.865 –> 00:15:32.730
– is like, and I love this. I love

442
00:15:32.730 –> 00:15:33.850
– I love the way you chose to do

443
00:15:33.850 –> 00:15:35.850
– this, Dale, because it is. It’s like, we

444
00:15:35.850 –> 00:15:37.070
– still need conviction.

445
00:15:37.370 –> 00:15:39.129
– So it’s like, okay. But here we are.

446
00:15:39.129 –> 00:15:41.210
– We’re asking you to drop these things. So

447
00:15:41.210 –> 00:15:43.129
– so our try to articulate to the audience,

448
00:15:43.129 –> 00:15:45.310
– how do we drop small thinking

449
00:15:45.825 –> 00:15:46.325
– while

450
00:15:46.945 –> 00:15:49.125
– staying big? How do we drop childish

451
00:15:49.904 –> 00:15:52.065
– while staying large? Because I don’t think any

452
00:15:52.065 –> 00:15:53.825
– IJ even guy listening to this wants to

453
00:15:53.825 –> 00:15:55.745
– be small. We do not wanna get bossed

454
00:15:55.745 –> 00:15:58.004
– around. I do not want to be abused.

455
00:15:58.470 –> 00:15:59.669
– I think the leash for a lot of

456
00:15:59.669 –> 00:16:02.070
– the betrayed partner behavior is way too long.

457
00:16:02.070 –> 00:16:03.669
– I think it does fall into I think

458
00:16:03.669 –> 00:16:05.190
– if the if a guy was doing that

459
00:16:05.190 –> 00:16:06.949
– regardless of what somebody did to them, it

460
00:16:06.949 –> 00:16:09.509
– would be called abusive. Absolutely. And so I

461
00:16:09.509 –> 00:16:10.949
– think we’re not asking you to just sit

462
00:16:10.949 –> 00:16:13.125
– there and take it and be belittled and

463
00:16:13.125 –> 00:16:14.825
– become a shell of yourself.

464
00:16:15.365 –> 00:16:18.245
– Reconcile that though because oftentimes it does feel

465
00:16:18.245 –> 00:16:20.565
– like that’s what’s being asked, but that’s not

466
00:16:20.565 –> 00:16:22.004
– what’s being asked. So how do we bridge

467
00:16:22.004 –> 00:16:24.105
– the gap from small thinking to

468
00:16:24.565 –> 00:16:27.945
– childish thinking to staying big and staying convicted?

469
00:16:28.160 –> 00:16:30.179
– Help us heal this misalignment

470
00:16:30.480 –> 00:16:32.100
– from entitlement to conviction.

471
00:16:32.480 –> 00:16:34.320
– Thank you. First of all, I just really

472
00:16:34.320 –> 00:16:36.960
– wanna double down on removing the shame aspect

473
00:16:36.960 –> 00:16:38.259
– because I even considered

474
00:16:38.720 –> 00:16:40.660
– whether if I use the term childlike,

475
00:16:41.440 –> 00:16:42.580
– that that can often

476
00:16:44.014 –> 00:16:45.934
– She’s talking about she’s talking about me being

477
00:16:45.934 –> 00:16:49.054
– childish. The child wins triggering, narcissist is triggering.

478
00:16:49.054 –> 00:16:51.375
– All the words are triggering. Because because keep

479
00:16:51.375 –> 00:16:53.534
– in mind, guys have been called we’ve been

480
00:16:53.534 –> 00:16:55.615
– called that before, and I don’t appreciate it.

481
00:16:55.615 –> 00:16:56.896
– I don’t like when you call me a

482
00:16:56.896 –> 00:16:58.629
– narcissist. I don’t like when you say that

483
00:16:58.629 –> 00:17:00.389
– I’m acting childish. These are hard things to

484
00:17:00.389 –> 00:17:02.070
– hear, but what I’m saying to the guys

485
00:17:02.070 –> 00:17:03.129
– listening to this is,

486
00:17:03.509 –> 00:17:05.029
– guys, we are. I mean, I’m not I’m

487
00:17:05.029 –> 00:17:06.390
– not I’m not meaning to attack you. It’s

488
00:17:06.390 –> 00:17:08.069
– just it’s a the thing that’s been sold

489
00:17:08.069 –> 00:17:10.309
– to us in successful male culture is a

490
00:17:10.309 –> 00:17:11.929
– very selfish, small,

491
00:17:12.345 –> 00:17:14.184
– limited lane of thinking. It’s just the it’s

492
00:17:14.184 –> 00:17:15.544
– just the nature of it. I’m not Yeah.

493
00:17:15.544 –> 00:17:17.304
– I actually really appreciate it, and I think

494
00:17:17.304 –> 00:17:20.585
– it’s helpful to bring in one’s kids because

495
00:17:20.585 –> 00:17:21.804
– at the end of the day,

496
00:17:22.105 –> 00:17:24.204
– a lot of guys are like incredible parents.

497
00:17:24.345 –> 00:17:26.605
– The kids see the presents under the tree.

498
00:17:26.690 –> 00:17:29.890
– It’s only December 21. The kids wanna open

499
00:17:29.890 –> 00:17:31.809
– the presents, and the kids have to wait

500
00:17:31.809 –> 00:17:34.710
– until December 25. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

501
00:17:34.769 –> 00:17:38.049
– we’re talking about delay. We’re constantly talking about

502
00:17:38.049 –> 00:17:38.869
– this behavior.

503
00:17:39.490 –> 00:17:40.710
– That is the difference

504
00:17:41.315 –> 00:17:43.634
– between, I guess I mean, if there’s no

505
00:17:43.634 –> 00:17:45.654
– other word for it being a small person,

506
00:17:45.875 –> 00:17:47.954
– whether you’re three feet tall, and being a

507
00:17:47.954 –> 00:17:50.674
– big person, whether you’re six feet tall. Okay?

508
00:17:50.674 –> 00:17:52.914
– I’m not six feet, but anywhere between five

509
00:17:52.914 –> 00:17:55.700
– and six. Right? Okay. So the thing is

510
00:17:55.700 –> 00:17:57.299
– is that I think that it’s just so

511
00:17:57.299 –> 00:17:58.200
– difficult because

512
00:17:58.740 –> 00:18:00.119
– I want to be

513
00:18:00.580 –> 00:18:03.700
– big. However, I am so accustomed to these

514
00:18:03.700 –> 00:18:04.200
– behaviors

515
00:18:04.980 –> 00:18:06.680
– that are immediately

516
00:18:07.059 –> 00:18:10.595
– gratifying. Again, small. It’s a very, very small

517
00:18:10.595 –> 00:18:13.474
– amount of time. I make this decision. I

518
00:18:13.474 –> 00:18:16.194
– decide to go to this massage parlor. I

519
00:18:16.194 –> 00:18:18.134
– get out my $100 bills,

520
00:18:18.515 –> 00:18:20.115
– and I get what I want. Okay? So

521
00:18:20.115 –> 00:18:22.375
– let’s call a spade a spade. Right? Alright.

522
00:18:22.549 –> 00:18:24.150
– The truth of the matter is is that

523
00:18:24.150 –> 00:18:25.529
– it has to take

524
00:18:26.150 –> 00:18:27.450
– vision about

525
00:18:27.750 –> 00:18:28.490
– the long

526
00:18:28.869 –> 00:18:30.169
– term game.

527
00:18:30.470 –> 00:18:32.150
– And so I don’t know a lot about

528
00:18:32.150 –> 00:18:32.650
– sports.

529
00:18:33.190 –> 00:18:35.130
– I only know that it requires,

530
00:18:35.585 –> 00:18:38.724
– you know, like goals and baskets and marathons,

531
00:18:38.865 –> 00:18:42.005
– not sprints. These are all kinds of things

532
00:18:42.224 –> 00:18:44.704
– that one really has to work towards in

533
00:18:44.704 –> 00:18:45.204
– incremental

534
00:18:45.505 –> 00:18:48.545
– steps, but they take time. Mhmm. So at

535
00:18:48.545 –> 00:18:51.080
– the end of the day, if we cut

536
00:18:51.080 –> 00:18:52.779
– through all the b s,

537
00:18:53.240 –> 00:18:54.859
– at the end of the day,

538
00:18:55.640 –> 00:18:56.140
– who

539
00:18:56.440 –> 00:18:56.940
– do

540
00:18:57.400 –> 00:19:00.759
– I wanna be and what impact do I

541
00:19:00.759 –> 00:19:01.740
– wanna have

542
00:19:02.200 –> 00:19:04.200
– as I live this, by the way, very

543
00:19:04.200 –> 00:19:06.704
– short life. Mhmm. And that’s not

544
00:19:07.325 –> 00:19:08.144
– a morality

545
00:19:08.764 –> 00:19:10.924
– Yeah. Spiel. That has nothing to do with

546
00:19:10.924 –> 00:19:13.085
– morality because I’m not here to preach morality.

547
00:19:13.085 –> 00:19:14.784
– I’m not a preacher. I’m not a rabbi.

548
00:19:15.085 –> 00:19:15.585
– However,

549
00:19:16.284 –> 00:19:18.065
– do I wanna be the person

550
00:19:18.924 –> 00:19:19.424
– that

551
00:19:19.829 –> 00:19:23.210
– thinks I’m big, but my behaviors are small?

552
00:19:23.509 –> 00:19:25.029
– Did that answer your question or not? It

553
00:19:25.029 –> 00:19:27.029
– did. It’s a conundrum we I think we

554
00:19:27.029 –> 00:19:29.669
– find ourselves in life quite frequently. Right? It’s

555
00:19:29.829 –> 00:19:31.049
– Yeah. It’s reconciliation

556
00:19:31.429 –> 00:19:34.054
– between two truths. And I think I think

557
00:19:34.054 –> 00:19:35.994
– the thing that makes it the hardest

558
00:19:36.694 –> 00:19:37.434
– in our

559
00:19:37.734 –> 00:19:39.974
– world today is that there is just such

560
00:19:39.974 –> 00:19:40.714
– an emphasis

561
00:19:41.095 –> 00:19:41.595
– on

562
00:19:42.375 –> 00:19:43.595
– excellence, superiority,

563
00:19:43.894 –> 00:19:46.375
– and so I think that often wins. Because

564
00:19:46.375 –> 00:19:48.559
– it’s like, if if I’m hearing a very

565
00:19:48.559 –> 00:19:50.980
– small group of people, my wife, my CSAT,

566
00:19:51.039 –> 00:19:53.039
– my, you know, these people are telling me

567
00:19:53.039 –> 00:19:53.539
– to

568
00:19:53.920 –> 00:19:56.500
– subscribe to something. And then the masses

569
00:19:57.359 –> 00:19:59.359
– are telling me to go do this. Now

570
00:19:59.359 –> 00:20:00.880
– again, I don’t think we need to see

571
00:20:00.880 –> 00:20:01.845
– it as that.

572
00:20:02.244 –> 00:20:04.244
– I think that’s another problem with high achieving

573
00:20:04.244 –> 00:20:06.404
– men is black and white thinking. Two things

574
00:20:06.404 –> 00:20:07.304
– can be true.

575
00:20:07.765 –> 00:20:09.784
– You can be into integrity

576
00:20:10.404 –> 00:20:12.164
– 99.999%

577
00:20:12.164 –> 00:20:14.724
– of the time except for your sexual acting

578
00:20:14.724 –> 00:20:16.825
– out. That can be true, and

579
00:20:17.320 –> 00:20:19.640
– point zero zero one percent chance of cheating

580
00:20:19.640 –> 00:20:21.320
– if you told a woman that on the

581
00:20:21.320 –> 00:20:22.599
– first date, she would just get in her

582
00:20:22.599 –> 00:20:24.359
– car and leave and not continue the date.

583
00:20:24.359 –> 00:20:25.960
– So both can be true. It can be

584
00:20:25.960 –> 00:20:27.559
– a very highly, you know, can you guys

585
00:20:27.559 –> 00:20:29.960
– imagine saying that, hey, I’m probably not gonna

586
00:20:29.960 –> 00:20:31.799
– cheat on you, but I don’t know. There’s

587
00:20:31.799 –> 00:20:34.095
– there’s certainly a chance. I’m not sure that

588
00:20:34.095 –> 00:20:36.095
– the that she would continue the date. So

589
00:20:36.095 –> 00:20:37.615
– that’s where I think both things can be

590
00:20:37.615 –> 00:20:40.335
– true. You can be in alignment a lot

591
00:20:40.335 –> 00:20:42.015
– of the time, and you also can make

592
00:20:42.015 –> 00:20:44.095
– a decision that makes somebody not wanna be

593
00:20:44.095 –> 00:20:46.174
– with you. That’s that’s the the two things.

594
00:20:46.174 –> 00:20:47.615
– So I think what you’re talking about with

595
00:20:47.615 –> 00:20:49.450
– this is this this dichotomy that I think

596
00:20:49.450 –> 00:20:51.609
– we in recovery, we run into over and

597
00:20:51.609 –> 00:20:54.009
– over and over and over again, where two

598
00:20:54.009 –> 00:20:55.149
– things can be true,

599
00:20:55.450 –> 00:20:57.769
– and one doesn’t necessarily have to denigrate the

600
00:20:57.769 –> 00:20:59.769
– other, which I think to continue the conversation,

601
00:20:59.769 –> 00:21:01.210
– I think is where we’re going with this,

602
00:21:01.210 –> 00:21:03.904
– which is how do we reconcile

603
00:21:04.845 –> 00:21:05.345
– conviction

604
00:21:05.644 –> 00:21:07.904
– when we feel like we’re being asked

605
00:21:08.605 –> 00:21:11.164
– to subscribe to a thing that we might

606
00:21:11.164 –> 00:21:12.924
– not wanna be subscribed to? I mean, hey,

607
00:21:12.924 –> 00:21:14.365
– you need to stop traveling for work. Oh,

608
00:21:14.365 –> 00:21:16.284
– hey, you need to sell, you know, it

609
00:21:16.284 –> 00:21:18.220
– could be a down market, but you slept

610
00:21:18.220 –> 00:21:20.140
– with an affair partner at the beach house

611
00:21:20.140 –> 00:21:21.259
– and now you need to sell the beach

612
00:21:21.259 –> 00:21:22.859
– house. Or you slept with her in the

613
00:21:22.859 –> 00:21:23.980
– back of the car, now you need to

614
00:21:23.980 –> 00:21:25.740
– sell the car. And it might not be

615
00:21:25.740 –> 00:21:28.539
– a great financial move. But again, I think

616
00:21:28.539 –> 00:21:30.460
– we need to reconcile that because I think

617
00:21:30.460 –> 00:21:32.539
– I think that is where conviction comes in

618
00:21:32.539 –> 00:21:34.595
– is what are you convicted about?

619
00:21:35.055 –> 00:21:35.875
– So define

620
00:21:36.255 –> 00:21:36.755
– conviction

621
00:21:37.134 –> 00:21:38.515
– in terms of recovery.

622
00:21:39.214 –> 00:21:41.634
– How does this feel? What’s this look like?

623
00:21:41.775 –> 00:21:44.095
– Maybe start with that as a CSAT. Like,

624
00:21:44.095 –> 00:21:46.095
– when do you know that you have a

625
00:21:46.095 –> 00:21:48.390
– convicted man who’s going to go the distance?

626
00:21:48.549 –> 00:21:49.990
– Maybe you start there and then we can

627
00:21:49.990 –> 00:21:52.070
– kind of reverse it again. Question. Okay. So

628
00:21:52.070 –> 00:21:53.589
– first of all, I think that some of

629
00:21:53.589 –> 00:21:55.670
– what you’re talking about, one of the things

630
00:21:55.670 –> 00:21:56.490
– I think is

631
00:21:56.869 –> 00:21:59.910
– recovery is so freaking difficult and it can

632
00:21:59.910 –> 00:22:02.384
– be so discouraging when there’s slips and relapses

633
00:22:02.384 –> 00:22:04.784
– and then there’s another rupture and another rupture

634
00:22:04.784 –> 00:22:07.424
– and another you know? Okay. So I think

635
00:22:07.424 –> 00:22:10.085
– that it’s extremely difficult. What I have found

636
00:22:10.464 –> 00:22:12.784
– in working with men, and I really do

637
00:22:12.784 –> 00:22:15.230
– love working with men because I think when

638
00:22:15.230 –> 00:22:17.630
– men come and they are ready or they

639
00:22:17.630 –> 00:22:18.929
– wanna be ready, right,

640
00:22:19.309 –> 00:22:21.470
– and they lean into being ready, it is

641
00:22:21.470 –> 00:22:21.970
– extremely

642
00:22:22.669 –> 00:22:23.169
– encouraging.

643
00:22:23.950 –> 00:22:25.730
– How much positive reinforcement

644
00:22:26.505 –> 00:22:27.244
– and empowerment

645
00:22:27.865 –> 00:22:30.025
– a man okay. I don’t wanna speak to,

646
00:22:30.025 –> 00:22:32.424
– like, the men. Okay. The I’ll talk to

647
00:22:32.424 –> 00:22:34.125
– you, Roland. You feel

648
00:22:34.424 –> 00:22:37.325
– once you start behaving in this bigger

649
00:22:37.704 –> 00:22:38.204
– manner,

650
00:22:38.585 –> 00:22:39.565
– AKA conviction.

651
00:22:40.079 –> 00:22:40.980
– So for example,

652
00:22:41.440 –> 00:22:44.259
– I am a man who avoids hard conversations.

653
00:22:44.720 –> 00:22:47.220
– Uh-oh. Here she comes. Mhmm. She said

654
00:22:47.599 –> 00:22:49.039
– she has that look on her face that

655
00:22:49.039 –> 00:22:50.740
– she wants to have a hard conversation.

656
00:22:51.279 –> 00:22:53.440
– It’s 08:00 at night. I’ve had a really

657
00:22:53.440 –> 00:22:55.994
– hard day. Yes. The market sucks. I had

658
00:22:55.994 –> 00:22:57.095
– to fire somebody.

659
00:22:57.474 –> 00:22:58.375
– I’m hungry.

660
00:22:58.674 –> 00:23:00.434
– Leave me alone. And she wants to have

661
00:23:00.434 –> 00:23:01.015
– a conversation.

662
00:23:01.634 –> 00:23:03.894
– What I have found in my experience

663
00:23:04.515 –> 00:23:06.615
– is this conviction thing. Okay.

664
00:23:07.315 –> 00:23:09.255
– I’m not gonna avoid the conversation.

665
00:23:09.555 –> 00:23:10.855
– I’m going to approach

666
00:23:11.400 –> 00:23:12.140
– the conversation.

667
00:23:12.840 –> 00:23:14.779
– Yes. Not the comfortable choice.

668
00:23:15.160 –> 00:23:17.000
– No. I wanna have a drink. I wanna

669
00:23:17.000 –> 00:23:18.279
– have dinner. I wanna sit in front of

670
00:23:18.279 –> 00:23:20.059
– the TV. I wanna go to bed. Right?

671
00:23:20.599 –> 00:23:23.180
– However, what I have found in my experience

672
00:23:23.835 –> 00:23:27.454
– is is that acting into that bigger behavior,

673
00:23:27.994 –> 00:23:30.875
– the less comfortable one in the minute, in

674
00:23:30.875 –> 00:23:31.534
– the minute,

675
00:23:31.835 –> 00:23:33.134
– and doing that

676
00:23:33.595 –> 00:23:34.095
– again,

677
00:23:34.474 –> 00:23:36.015
– and then doing that again.

678
00:23:36.630 –> 00:23:39.589
– There’s this kind of thing that comes to

679
00:23:39.589 –> 00:23:41.670
– fruition and I think rather quickly. I don’t

680
00:23:41.670 –> 00:23:43.609
– even think it takes a really long time.

681
00:23:43.670 –> 00:23:45.769
– It’s like ding ding ding.

682
00:23:46.390 –> 00:23:48.089
– That felt good.

683
00:23:48.710 –> 00:23:51.130
– I leaned in in a fashion

684
00:23:51.784 –> 00:23:53.085
– where I felt

685
00:23:53.784 –> 00:23:56.345
– like I was a grown up. I didn’t

686
00:23:56.345 –> 00:23:58.984
– run away. Mhmm. I didn’t say I don’t

687
00:23:58.984 –> 00:24:02.025
– wanna have this conversation or I didn’t lie

688
00:24:02.025 –> 00:24:03.704
– because the truth would have led to a

689
00:24:03.704 –> 00:24:04.605
– bigger conversation.

690
00:24:05.065 –> 00:24:06.525
– There’s something that happens

691
00:24:06.940 –> 00:24:08.559
– to one’s self esteem

692
00:24:09.180 –> 00:24:10.640
– and it’s not comfortable.

693
00:24:11.500 –> 00:24:12.000
– However,

694
00:24:12.619 –> 00:24:15.099
– I don’t even think that it takes years.

695
00:24:15.099 –> 00:24:17.680
– Mhmm. I’ve actually seen it happen in months.

696
00:24:17.820 –> 00:24:19.680
– Mhmm. Mhmm. I have chosen

697
00:24:20.184 –> 00:24:22.605
– the more difficult thing tonight.

698
00:24:23.144 –> 00:24:25.224
– Maybe if I choose that again tomorrow, and

699
00:24:25.224 –> 00:24:26.904
– I hope I’m answering your question. You are.

700
00:24:26.904 –> 00:24:30.285
– You are. Yeah. Conviction. Maybe choice, conviction.

701
00:24:30.744 –> 00:24:32.285
– Choice, conviction. Choice, conviction.

702
00:24:32.744 –> 00:24:34.765
– If I choose that again tomorrow,

703
00:24:35.299 –> 00:24:36.839
– now is it gonna go well?

704
00:24:37.140 –> 00:24:39.140
– Maybe not necessarily. Maybe his wife’s gonna act

705
00:24:39.140 –> 00:24:41.140
– like an asshole. Right? Maybe she’s just gonna

706
00:24:41.140 –> 00:24:43.159
– bust his balls even more. However,

707
00:24:43.539 –> 00:24:46.819
– again, I’m talking about how I I okay.

708
00:24:46.819 –> 00:24:47.960
– I deal, you Roland.

709
00:24:48.474 –> 00:24:50.474
– How I wanna be in the world. Yeah.

710
00:24:50.474 –> 00:24:52.474
– So I can’t control how she’s gonna react

711
00:24:52.474 –> 00:24:55.054
– to me. But if I make this choice

712
00:24:55.674 –> 00:24:57.054
– and it’s aligned

713
00:24:57.835 –> 00:24:59.774
– with how I truly see

714
00:25:00.634 –> 00:25:01.134
– big,

715
00:25:01.859 –> 00:25:03.880
– Okay? How I truly see

716
00:25:04.180 –> 00:25:04.680
– grandiose

717
00:25:05.299 –> 00:25:06.599
– or mature

718
00:25:07.299 –> 00:25:07.799
– or

719
00:25:08.339 –> 00:25:11.779
– somebody who who I would respect. Right? Who’s

720
00:25:11.779 –> 00:25:13.940
– taking the more difficult route. If I do

721
00:25:13.940 –> 00:25:15.640
– that today and I do that tomorrow,

722
00:25:16.325 –> 00:25:18.724
– I might feel better. Yeah. I’m gonna give

723
00:25:18.724 –> 00:25:19.464
– it a shot.

724
00:25:19.924 –> 00:25:21.545
– I like your definition because

725
00:25:22.565 –> 00:25:23.865
– when I decide

726
00:25:24.164 –> 00:25:24.964
– when I,

727
00:25:25.285 –> 00:25:26.724
– you know, at a work conference and I

728
00:25:26.724 –> 00:25:28.884
– go to the happy hour, after the happy

729
00:25:28.884 –> 00:25:30.644
– hour, and I can sense that there is

730
00:25:30.644 –> 00:25:33.179
– a level of intoxication that’s high, there is

731
00:25:33.419 –> 00:25:34.859
– and I decide to go back to my

732
00:25:34.859 –> 00:25:37.839
– room, order room service, and watch some Netflix.

733
00:25:38.460 –> 00:25:41.579
– As boring as that is to so many

734
00:25:41.579 –> 00:25:43.740
– of my parts, there’s a part of me

735
00:25:43.740 –> 00:25:44.960
– that is just like,

736
00:25:45.464 –> 00:25:47.144
– man, I like that I’m that guy. I

737
00:25:47.144 –> 00:25:49.644
– like that I come in, assess the situation,

738
00:25:49.944 –> 00:25:50.444
– and

739
00:25:50.744 –> 00:25:52.204
– choose the long

740
00:25:52.664 –> 00:25:54.285
– term play versus

741
00:25:54.744 –> 00:25:57.304
– the petty short term one of, oh, I

742
00:25:57.304 –> 00:25:59.099
– can’t miss out on, you know, what the

743
00:25:59.259 –> 00:26:01.339
– connections that I could make there. Right? That

744
00:26:01.339 –> 00:26:02.940
– in all reality, if I really wanna make

745
00:26:02.940 –> 00:26:04.400
– the connection, can I talk to him tomorrow?

746
00:26:04.619 –> 00:26:05.900
– I could shake his hand and say, hey.

747
00:26:05.900 –> 00:26:07.019
– I’d love to jump on a Zoom. You

748
00:26:07.019 –> 00:26:08.319
– know, isn’t there alternatives

749
00:26:08.859 –> 00:26:11.500
– where maybe us not being drunk could actually

750
00:26:11.500 –> 00:26:13.339
– just say, you know, I start buying into

751
00:26:13.339 –> 00:26:14.480
– this other avenue

752
00:26:15.065 –> 00:26:17.065
– of Oh, totally. And I don’t have to

753
00:26:17.065 –> 00:26:19.144
– wake since you’re talking about alcohol and knocking

754
00:26:19.144 –> 00:26:21.305
– down shots and turning away from that and

755
00:26:21.305 –> 00:26:22.825
– not doing that, I don’t have to wake

756
00:26:22.825 –> 00:26:24.424
– up tomorrow and I don’t have to say

757
00:26:24.825 –> 00:26:26.204
– Yes. Oh my god.

758
00:26:26.585 –> 00:26:28.345
– Right. Well, what did I say? I can’t

759
00:26:28.345 –> 00:26:30.910
– believe, you know, right exactly. It’s this it’s

760
00:26:30.910 –> 00:26:33.070
– this misalign. And I do think you I

761
00:26:33.070 –> 00:26:34.450
– do think to your point, that’s

762
00:26:34.829 –> 00:26:36.529
– how so I have two follow-up questions,

763
00:26:36.990 –> 00:26:38.349
– and and I’ll try to remind you of

764
00:26:38.349 –> 00:26:40.029
– one because I’m sure we’ll forget about the

765
00:26:40.029 –> 00:26:40.769
– other one.

766
00:26:41.150 –> 00:26:41.970
– One is,

767
00:26:42.430 –> 00:26:43.970
– do you think that conviction

768
00:26:44.934 –> 00:26:46.615
– in terms of having it kind of take

769
00:26:46.615 –> 00:26:49.015
– over your being and kind of become a

770
00:26:49.015 –> 00:26:51.095
– North Star, if you will, isn’t it probably

771
00:26:51.095 –> 00:26:53.734
– just like everything else? The more we feel

772
00:26:53.734 –> 00:26:54.234
– it,

773
00:26:54.615 –> 00:26:56.855
– the more we start to feel the difference

774
00:26:56.855 –> 00:27:00.210
– between non convicted decisions and convicted decisions and

775
00:27:00.210 –> 00:27:01.970
– how good it feels to make convicted ones.

776
00:27:01.970 –> 00:27:03.970
– And just like a lot of things, we

777
00:27:03.970 –> 00:27:06.529
– start just choosing that road more often, or

778
00:27:06.529 –> 00:27:07.970
– is there more to it? And then my

779
00:27:07.970 –> 00:27:09.329
– second question is, and I want you to

780
00:27:09.329 –> 00:27:10.549
– answer this one first.

781
00:27:11.089 –> 00:27:12.950
– Why do we see waning

782
00:27:13.490 –> 00:27:13.990
– conviction

783
00:27:15.805 –> 00:27:17.644
– at the certain mark? And I see it

784
00:27:17.644 –> 00:27:19.565
– all the time with men. There’s a ton

785
00:27:19.565 –> 00:27:20.225
– of conviction

786
00:27:20.845 –> 00:27:21.664
– in the beginning.

787
00:27:22.125 –> 00:27:23.105
– They go through

788
00:27:23.725 –> 00:27:24.384
– the process.

789
00:27:25.085 –> 00:27:27.245
– Why do we start to see some really

790
00:27:27.245 –> 00:27:28.625
– challenges with conviction?

791
00:27:28.980 –> 00:27:30.440
– It’s I would say usually

792
00:27:31.299 –> 00:27:32.740
– is around the year and at one and

793
00:27:32.740 –> 00:27:34.980
– a half mark. And then, yeah, why do

794
00:27:34.980 –> 00:27:36.500
– we usually see it start to trickle in

795
00:27:36.500 –> 00:27:37.779
– at year 1.5,

796
00:27:37.779 –> 00:27:39.859
– year two, year two and a half, year

797
00:27:39.859 –> 00:27:40.980
– three? Why do we why do we all

798
00:27:40.980 –> 00:27:42.440
– of a sudden start to see a

799
00:27:42.924 –> 00:27:44.525
– fall off? Because it’s like, okay, hold on.

800
00:27:44.525 –> 00:27:46.924
– Now we just saw this super convicted guy.

801
00:27:46.924 –> 00:27:48.305
– What is it do you think

802
00:27:48.924 –> 00:27:50.865
– that causes that to wane?

803
00:27:51.244 –> 00:27:53.085
– Oh, such a great question. And I think

804
00:27:53.085 –> 00:27:55.164
– obviously there’s many factors. So maybe it’s better

805
00:27:55.164 –> 00:27:56.945
– not to say one thing, but maybe say

806
00:27:57.085 –> 00:27:59.009
– a list of things. It’s such a great

807
00:27:59.650 –> 00:28:01.250
– and and I think that that pretty much

808
00:28:01.250 –> 00:28:03.750
– everybody struggles with it. It’s like the question

809
00:28:03.809 –> 00:28:05.490
– is special. Oh my god. It’s like That

810
00:28:05.490 –> 00:28:07.090
– became more of the problem. At year at

811
00:28:07.090 –> 00:28:07.910
– year three,

812
00:28:08.450 –> 00:28:10.450
– I was the one in therapy saying, I

813
00:28:10.450 –> 00:28:12.049
– don’t know. I think I’m done with this.

814
00:28:12.049 –> 00:28:13.570
– You know, for real, I’m not getting this

815
00:28:13.570 –> 00:28:15.224
– movie. Okay. No. For real, there was so

816
00:28:15.224 –> 00:28:16.984
– much contempt on my side for how it

817
00:28:16.984 –> 00:28:18.505
– was treated. I was just like, you know,

818
00:28:18.505 –> 00:28:20.585
– I’m just I don’t know. I’m not really

819
00:28:20.585 –> 00:28:22.265
– into it anymore. I don’t know. I I

820
00:28:22.265 –> 00:28:24.105
– love you. I’m not in love with you.

821
00:28:24.105 –> 00:28:25.704
– A bunch of just hard things to hear.

822
00:28:25.704 –> 00:28:27.305
– I’m like, I’m not really attracted to you

823
00:28:27.305 –> 00:28:30.220
– sexually right now. Right? It’s just conviction gone.

824
00:28:30.220 –> 00:28:31.819
– So I’m I’m I’m just disclosing this to

825
00:28:31.819 –> 00:28:33.440
– the guys listening. I was absolutely

826
00:28:33.740 –> 00:28:36.140
– there. Yeah. Yes. No. And I was just

827
00:28:36.140 –> 00:28:38.160
– gonna say that I just wanted to normalize

828
00:28:38.220 –> 00:28:40.940
– it, you know, psychobabble stuff. I mean, in

829
00:28:40.940 –> 00:28:42.568
– the sense that on January 1, everybody has

830
00:28:42.568 –> 00:28:42.681
– these grandiose New Year’s resolutions. And come March,

831
00:28:42.681 –> 00:28:42.859
– it’s like, what New Year’s resolution? Right? So

832
00:28:42.859 –> 00:28:43.359
– you’re

833
00:28:50.815 –> 00:28:52.335
– mark, and for you, you’re talking about the

834
00:28:52.335 –> 00:28:54.015
– thirty six month mark. But I think that

835
00:28:54.015 –> 00:28:55.535
– for some people, it’s the three month mark.

836
00:28:55.535 –> 00:28:57.855
– And everybody struggles on a different level, and,

837
00:28:57.855 –> 00:29:01.200
– obviously, we’re not creating a arithmetic equation about

838
00:29:01.200 –> 00:29:03.119
– harm, lack of harm, degree of harm, because

839
00:29:03.119 –> 00:29:04.559
– I don’t wanna do that. That’s like a

840
00:29:04.559 –> 00:29:07.279
– judgy kind of place. Right. Waiting conviction is

841
00:29:07.279 –> 00:29:09.679
– what you’re talking about. And I think it’s

842
00:29:09.679 –> 00:29:11.919
– very difficult. And I think it’s a reality

843
00:29:11.919 –> 00:29:13.700
– because it’s not an if, it’s a when.

844
00:29:13.964 –> 00:29:15.184
– Look. Let’s just

845
00:29:15.484 –> 00:29:18.144
– really call a spade a spade. There’s nobody

846
00:29:18.444 –> 00:29:20.144
– that doesn’t get to a place

847
00:29:20.525 –> 00:29:22.464
– where their conviction about something

848
00:29:22.924 –> 00:29:25.904
– wanes. Yeah. That’s true. That’s true. Anything.

849
00:29:26.549 –> 00:29:28.470
– Anything. That’s why I want to, like, take

850
00:29:28.470 –> 00:29:30.390
– the shame out of all this shit because

851
00:29:30.390 –> 00:29:32.150
– the truth of the matter is is that

852
00:29:32.150 –> 00:29:33.450
– it’s very difficult

853
00:29:33.910 –> 00:29:36.490
– to walk the walk. Right? And so

854
00:29:36.950 –> 00:29:38.950
– in terms of waning conviction, I think it

855
00:29:38.950 –> 00:29:40.330
– always comes down

856
00:29:40.710 –> 00:29:41.850
– to cost benefit.

857
00:29:42.684 –> 00:29:45.965
– It really freaking does. And, like, does that

858
00:29:45.965 –> 00:29:48.205
– mean that one’s not gonna be fed up?

859
00:29:48.205 –> 00:29:49.884
– Because the truth of the matter is is

860
00:29:49.884 –> 00:29:52.065
– that the cost benefit can feel

861
00:29:52.765 –> 00:29:55.244
– like the cost is so high and the

862
00:29:55.244 –> 00:29:58.279
– benefit so low. I’m doing everything right, and

863
00:29:58.279 –> 00:30:00.619
– she’s still telling me I’m not doing enough.

864
00:30:00.759 –> 00:30:02.039
– Well, I have a you know, my my

865
00:30:02.039 –> 00:30:03.720
– thing I said was I have a wife,

866
00:30:03.720 –> 00:30:05.160
– but I don’t have a wife. But I

867
00:30:05.160 –> 00:30:07.480
– also can’t go get another one that feels

868
00:30:07.480 –> 00:30:09.240
– like a wife because she doesn’t appreciate. So

869
00:30:09.240 –> 00:30:11.575
– it’s like I’m trapped in a none of

870
00:30:11.575 –> 00:30:13.174
– my needs are getting met. They haven’t been

871
00:30:13.174 –> 00:30:15.275
– met for three freaking years.

872
00:30:15.575 –> 00:30:17.335
– It’s just like so but I also can’t

873
00:30:17.335 –> 00:30:19.515
– go get another one because that would be

874
00:30:19.575 –> 00:30:21.095
– infidelity. You know? So it’s just like, oh

875
00:30:21.095 –> 00:30:22.695
– my gosh. Like, guys and that’s I think

876
00:30:22.695 –> 00:30:24.670
– when it does, it’s like, okay. Now what

877
00:30:24.670 –> 00:30:26.190
– am I doing now at this point? Right?

878
00:30:26.190 –> 00:30:27.549
– You you I think you worded it so

879
00:30:27.549 –> 00:30:29.009
– well. Was that what you were talking about?

880
00:30:29.070 –> 00:30:31.410
– Well, I think that’s what it’s talking about.

881
00:30:32.029 –> 00:30:33.549
– Well, I think it it it sounds like

882
00:30:33.549 –> 00:30:34.670
– I was just trying to bring in a

883
00:30:34.670 –> 00:30:36.430
– practical context because I would be know, and

884
00:30:36.430 –> 00:30:38.509
– I love how transparent you’re being, Roland. It’s

885
00:30:38.509 –> 00:30:40.755
– really, really beautiful. It’s just real it’s incredible

886
00:30:40.974 –> 00:30:41.474
– recovery

887
00:30:41.775 –> 00:30:43.615
– to be able to be this genuine, and

888
00:30:43.615 –> 00:30:45.454
– I I there’s a lot of grace for

889
00:30:45.454 –> 00:30:45.954
– that,

890
00:30:46.335 –> 00:30:46.835
– truly.

891
00:30:47.134 –> 00:30:48.974
– I think again, I don’t think this is

892
00:30:48.974 –> 00:30:50.734
– an easy answer, but I don’t wanna dodge

893
00:30:50.734 –> 00:30:52.434
– the question because I’m not a dodger.

894
00:30:52.769 –> 00:30:56.130
– So hitting it head on, it always comes

895
00:30:56.130 –> 00:30:56.950
– down to

896
00:30:57.490 –> 00:30:59.650
– who do I wanna be because when I

897
00:30:59.650 –> 00:31:02.130
– wake up in the morning and this big

898
00:31:02.130 –> 00:31:04.609
– word integrity that everybody’s throwing it around and

899
00:31:04.609 –> 00:31:06.289
– this one has integrity and this one doesn’t

900
00:31:06.289 –> 00:31:08.724
– have integrity. And I love integrity because if

901
00:31:08.724 –> 00:31:11.285
– we’re misaligned, we feel like shit. Okay? It’s

902
00:31:11.285 –> 00:31:13.605
– just the bottom line. We just do. Right?

903
00:31:13.605 –> 00:31:15.845
– And so if we’re misaligned, we feel it’s

904
00:31:15.845 –> 00:31:17.525
– like a it’s like the car. You have

905
00:31:17.525 –> 00:31:20.244
– to freaking bring it in because it’s not

906
00:31:20.244 –> 00:31:23.169
– running properly. And so the waning conviction has

907
00:31:23.169 –> 00:31:24.690
– to come back. I think it actually has

908
00:31:24.690 –> 00:31:26.369
– to come back to groups, and I do

909
00:31:26.369 –> 00:31:27.809
– think that it has to come back to

910
00:31:27.809 –> 00:31:30.929
– whatever you’re in. Therapy, a 12 step program,

911
00:31:30.929 –> 00:31:32.450
– whatever the hell you’re in, it has to

912
00:31:32.450 –> 00:31:34.230
– come back to, wait,

913
00:31:34.609 –> 00:31:37.125
– what did I just I love North Star.

914
00:31:37.125 –> 00:31:39.284
– What did I decide was the North Star

915
00:31:39.284 –> 00:31:41.444
– in the first place? Why did I decide

916
00:31:41.444 –> 00:31:43.605
– to give this up? It was actually kind

917
00:31:43.605 –> 00:31:44.265
– of fun.

918
00:31:44.964 –> 00:31:47.605
– It was really, really cool. Guess what? I

919
00:31:47.605 –> 00:31:49.365
– make a lot of money. I can actually

920
00:31:49.365 –> 00:31:49.865
– afford

921
00:31:50.200 –> 00:31:52.779
– to buy all of these shiny new objects,

922
00:31:52.840 –> 00:31:56.279
– a different one every single day. And that’s

923
00:31:56.279 –> 00:31:57.799
– a lot more fun than the one that

924
00:31:57.799 –> 00:31:59.740
– I’ve had for thirteen years. Right?

925
00:32:00.359 –> 00:32:01.980
– Bottom line. However,

926
00:32:02.840 –> 00:32:05.695
– if I do these shots right now and

927
00:32:05.695 –> 00:32:07.855
– then I start talking to all those people

928
00:32:07.855 –> 00:32:09.535
– that I want to impress, I’m gonna wake

929
00:32:09.535 –> 00:32:10.195
– up tomorrow

930
00:32:10.734 –> 00:32:12.595
– and I’m gonna feel

931
00:32:13.215 –> 00:32:14.515
– disgusting about myself.

932
00:32:14.975 –> 00:32:17.394
– So when you’re talking about the waning part,

933
00:32:17.559 –> 00:32:19.480
– it’s always for me and I talk to

934
00:32:19.480 –> 00:32:21.000
– guys about this all the time, but it’s

935
00:32:21.000 –> 00:32:22.599
– hard. But I think we’re all faced with

936
00:32:22.599 –> 00:32:24.200
– this. Am I gonna have another piece of

937
00:32:24.200 –> 00:32:26.220
– pie? It’s all about delay.

938
00:32:26.839 –> 00:32:28.680
– It’s so basic. I don’t even think I’m

939
00:32:28.680 –> 00:32:30.279
– saying something that I think is gonna be

940
00:32:30.279 –> 00:32:32.460
– so freaking, you know, impressive.

941
00:32:33.255 –> 00:32:35.115
– If I don’t do this now,

942
00:32:35.414 –> 00:32:37.835
– it’s really possible it’s going to pass.

943
00:32:38.214 –> 00:32:40.295
– Do you agree? Mhmm. Yeah. It’s a and

944
00:32:40.295 –> 00:32:42.055
– this leads me to another question. I’m really

945
00:32:42.055 –> 00:32:44.375
– curious how you’re gonna answer this. The reason

946
00:32:44.375 –> 00:32:46.295
– I think year 1.5,

947
00:32:46.295 –> 00:32:47.734
– year two, year two and a half, whenever

948
00:32:47.734 –> 00:32:49.460
– kind of that happens. The reason I think

949
00:32:49.460 –> 00:32:51.880
– it happens is, I don’t think it’s anyone’s

950
00:32:52.500 –> 00:32:55.539
– fault, but I do think it is everyone’s

951
00:32:55.539 –> 00:32:57.619
– fault at the same time. I think it’s

952
00:32:57.619 –> 00:32:59.700
– so easy in the beginning because there’s a

953
00:32:59.700 –> 00:33:01.445
– plan. Hey, we’re going to go do this.

954
00:33:01.445 –> 00:33:03.045
– You’re gonna write this thing, and then when

955
00:33:03.045 –> 00:33:04.644
– you’re gonna go take this test, and then

956
00:33:04.644 –> 00:33:06.244
– when you take that and pass it, then

957
00:33:06.244 –> 00:33:08.325
– she’s gonna write this letter to you, and

958
00:33:08.325 –> 00:33:09.445
– then you’re gonna read it, and then you’re

959
00:33:09.445 –> 00:33:10.805
– gonna take two months and write this letter

960
00:33:10.805 –> 00:33:12.005
– back to her. And then you guys are

961
00:33:12.005 –> 00:33:13.045
– gonna do this, and then we’re gonna get

962
00:33:13.045 –> 00:33:15.089
– to injury repair. And, like, oh, wow. Good.

963
00:33:15.169 –> 00:33:16.849
– This is great. And then we’ll be happy

964
00:33:16.849 –> 00:33:19.650
– couple again. And so there’s this conviction that

965
00:33:19.650 –> 00:33:21.890
– we’re going to be okay. And I think

966
00:33:21.890 –> 00:33:24.369
– what happens right around yeah. You’re and again,

967
00:33:24.369 –> 00:33:25.809
– like I said, I don’t think it’s anyone’s

968
00:33:25.809 –> 00:33:27.490
– fault, but I think it’s everyone’s fault. What

969
00:33:27.490 –> 00:33:28.630
– I mean by that is

970
00:33:29.035 –> 00:33:31.434
– there is no road map and and the

971
00:33:31.434 –> 00:33:33.275
– CSATs also can’t make one because at what

972
00:33:33.355 –> 00:33:34.654
– at year 1.5,

973
00:33:35.035 –> 00:33:37.275
– everyone’s unique at that point in time. None

974
00:33:37.275 –> 00:33:39.515
– of the couples, none, and I mean this,

975
00:33:39.515 –> 00:33:40.494
– none of them

976
00:33:40.795 –> 00:33:42.714
– are even remotely in the same I mean,

977
00:33:42.714 –> 00:33:45.419
– it is gonna gonna require a totally unique

978
00:33:45.419 –> 00:33:45.919
– arsenal

979
00:33:46.380 –> 00:33:48.619
– for every marriage. And that is where that’s

980
00:33:48.619 –> 00:33:49.899
– why I say I don’t think it’s anyone’s

981
00:33:49.899 –> 00:33:52.940
– fault because you’re truly having to invent a

982
00:33:52.940 –> 00:33:55.740
– new treatment plan with every single couple that

983
00:33:55.740 –> 00:33:57.740
– has nothing that could look night and day

984
00:33:57.740 –> 00:33:59.755
– different than the last couple. But at the

985
00:33:59.755 –> 00:34:01.355
– same time, I think it’s everyone’s fault because

986
00:34:01.355 –> 00:34:04.234
– I do think both the betrayer and the

987
00:34:04.234 –> 00:34:04.734
– betrayed

988
00:34:05.115 –> 00:34:06.815
– and the therapist need to understand

989
00:34:07.515 –> 00:34:09.434
– that, yeah, that people are not the same

990
00:34:09.434 –> 00:34:11.034
– and relationships are not the same. I think

991
00:34:11.034 –> 00:34:12.715
– where my wife and I really started to

992
00:34:12.715 –> 00:34:15.589
– suffer was when we felt like people were

993
00:34:15.730 –> 00:34:18.210
– treating us like they treat every couple. And

994
00:34:18.210 –> 00:34:19.489
– then we would go and then finally we’d

995
00:34:19.489 –> 00:34:20.449
– be like, oh my gosh, I think we

996
00:34:20.449 –> 00:34:21.650
– need to find a new therapist. This is

997
00:34:21.650 –> 00:34:22.849
– just going nowhere. And then we find a

998
00:34:22.849 –> 00:34:24.369
– new therapist and we’re like, okay, I think

999
00:34:24.369 –> 00:34:25.730
– this will work. And then same thing, it

1000
00:34:25.730 –> 00:34:27.329
– feels like we’re falling into it. So it’s

1001
00:34:27.329 –> 00:34:29.045
– like, no, you don’t get it. Like, we’re

1002
00:34:29.045 –> 00:34:31.285
– madly in love. That’s not the issue. Like,

1003
00:34:31.285 –> 00:34:33.605
– we want to freaking make this work. And

1004
00:34:33.605 –> 00:34:35.045
– I, you know, I’m like, over here, I

1005
00:34:35.045 –> 00:34:36.325
– feel this and this and this, and I

1006
00:34:36.325 –> 00:34:38.885
– hate hate this freaking marriage because this sucks.

1007
00:34:38.885 –> 00:34:40.980
– And then she’s over there saying, I can’t

1008
00:34:41.059 –> 00:34:42.579
– trust him again. I can’t let him go

1009
00:34:42.579 –> 00:34:44.500
– do this again because it feels yucky and

1010
00:34:44.500 –> 00:34:46.519
– I shouldn’t have to feel yucky every time.

1011
00:34:46.579 –> 00:34:48.340
– And so it wasn’t like we disagreed with

1012
00:34:48.340 –> 00:34:49.940
– each other. We were coming to the helpers

1013
00:34:49.940 –> 00:34:52.260
– to say, help us find a plan to

1014
00:34:52.340 –> 00:34:53.954
– and the problem was there was just never

1015
00:34:53.954 –> 00:34:55.555
– really light at the end of the tunnel.

1016
00:34:55.555 –> 00:34:58.215
– It was just this washing machine of shit.

1017
00:34:58.515 –> 00:35:00.675
– So my question to you is, what do

1018
00:35:00.675 –> 00:35:02.675
– we do? And I want the damn answer

1019
00:35:02.675 –> 00:35:04.195
– to this because I don’t know how to

1020
00:35:04.195 –> 00:35:05.575
– answer that. Like, what

1021
00:35:05.909 –> 00:35:07.829
– We all pretend that we have this all

1022
00:35:07.829 –> 00:35:09.429
– figured out. We’re there’s not a lot of

1023
00:35:09.429 –> 00:35:11.829
– thriving couples. There just isn’t. It’s a lot

1024
00:35:11.829 –> 00:35:12.809
– of just freaking

1025
00:35:13.190 –> 00:35:15.190
– pain and a lot of stuff that is,

1026
00:35:15.190 –> 00:35:17.109
– you know, they’re not thriving like that. It’s

1027
00:35:17.349 –> 00:35:19.349
– and so what do these couples do when

1028
00:35:19.349 –> 00:35:20.569
– you hit that place

1029
00:35:20.925 –> 00:35:23.005
– and the conviction starts to wane on both

1030
00:35:23.005 –> 00:35:25.905
– sides? That’s not great. The Gottman’s have research

1031
00:35:25.965 –> 00:35:28.445
– that suggests what’s gonna happen in that state,

1032
00:35:28.445 –> 00:35:30.844
– and the percentages are not good. I mean,

1033
00:35:30.844 –> 00:35:32.844
– once contempt happens, it’s what? Ninety six percent

1034
00:35:32.844 –> 00:35:34.605
– chance of divorce. So my wife and I

1035
00:35:34.605 –> 00:35:36.260
– got there, but I knew we were a

1036
00:35:36.260 –> 00:35:38.659
– four percent couple, so I stayed. But my

1037
00:35:38.659 –> 00:35:41.139
– point is, what do we do? What like,

1038
00:35:41.139 –> 00:35:42.579
– luckily for my wife and I, because of

1039
00:35:42.579 –> 00:35:44.820
– our position, we didn’t really have you know,

1040
00:35:44.820 –> 00:35:47.139
– we had the luxuries of hiring anybody and

1041
00:35:47.139 –> 00:35:49.300
– everybody and flying wherever we needed to fly.

1042
00:35:49.300 –> 00:35:50.820
– But, like, if you don’t have that luxury,

1043
00:35:50.820 –> 00:35:52.795
– like, how can you prevent this? What’s the

1044
00:35:52.795 –> 00:35:54.074
– couple need to do? I really wanna hear

1045
00:35:54.074 –> 00:35:56.155
– the answer because I I frankly don’t know.

1046
00:35:56.155 –> 00:35:57.594
– If somebody asked me that, I don’t know

1047
00:35:57.594 –> 00:35:59.515
– if I could answer it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1048
00:35:59.515 –> 00:36:00.715
– I love the way that you so you’re

1049
00:36:00.715 –> 00:36:02.635
– talking about nuts and bolts and the truth

1050
00:36:02.635 –> 00:36:03.914
– of the matter. It does come down to

1051
00:36:03.914 –> 00:36:06.015
– nuts and bolts because you’ve got two people

1052
00:36:06.140 –> 00:36:07.039
– who are incredibly

1053
00:36:07.739 –> 00:36:09.900
– unhappy. Okay? And so then you’re gonna talk

1054
00:36:09.900 –> 00:36:12.960
– about these big things like conviction and integrity.

1055
00:36:13.019 –> 00:36:15.340
– Right? Okay. And empathy. The dreaded empathy, of

1056
00:36:15.340 –> 00:36:17.660
– course. I mean I mean, wait a minute.

1057
00:36:17.660 –> 00:36:21.034
– I’m freaking miserable. Okay? We haven’t had sex

1058
00:36:21.034 –> 00:36:23.594
– in nine million years. Okay? What do I

1059
00:36:23.594 –> 00:36:25.275
– have to do to get laid? Okay? Let’s

1060
00:36:25.275 –> 00:36:27.195
– just okay. And so I’m gonna talk about

1061
00:36:27.195 –> 00:36:30.155
– conviction and integrity. Okay. You’re like, wait a

1062
00:36:30.155 –> 00:36:32.070
– second. Like, what choir are you preaching to

1063
00:36:32.070 –> 00:36:33.989
– because it’s not working? Isn’t that what you’re

1064
00:36:33.989 –> 00:36:35.670
– talking about? That’s exactly what I’m saying is,

1065
00:36:35.670 –> 00:36:37.110
– like, what are we doing? And it really

1066
00:36:37.110 –> 00:36:38.869
– starts to feel like that. It’s like, so

1067
00:36:38.869 –> 00:36:40.710
– we come here and then I talk about

1068
00:36:40.710 –> 00:36:42.469
– what I’m pissed off about this last week.

1069
00:36:42.469 –> 00:36:43.989
– It’s just like at a certain point, like,

1070
00:36:43.989 –> 00:36:45.769
– in the beginning there was such a plan

1071
00:36:45.994 –> 00:36:47.994
– and so much hope. And now it’s just

1072
00:36:47.994 –> 00:36:50.074
– like, wait, I still don’t trust him. I’m

1073
00:36:50.074 –> 00:36:51.755
– still pissed. And then the guys over here,

1074
00:36:51.755 –> 00:36:53.515
– like, saying, I don’t know how much longer

1075
00:36:53.515 –> 00:36:55.275
– I can be in a relationship of this

1076
00:36:55.275 –> 00:36:57.434
– caliber. This is this is no marriage that

1077
00:36:57.434 –> 00:36:59.035
– I want to stay in if it’s going

1078
00:36:59.035 –> 00:37:01.119
– to continue this way. So, yeah, what do

1079
00:37:01.119 –> 00:37:02.800
– you what do you do? What’s the new

1080
00:37:02.800 –> 00:37:04.079
– plan? And I know it’s a hard question

1081
00:37:04.079 –> 00:37:05.840
– to ask because to your point, it is

1082
00:37:05.840 –> 00:37:07.440
– a custom plan. But I guess that’s my

1083
00:37:07.440 –> 00:37:09.599
– question is, how do we customize the plan

1084
00:37:09.599 –> 00:37:11.519
– so we can keep the conviction around? Because

1085
00:37:11.519 –> 00:37:12.719
– that I mean, I really think that would

1086
00:37:12.719 –> 00:37:14.480
– be so helpful for these couples in a

1087
00:37:14.480 –> 00:37:16.784
– time where they need it most. Yeah. So

1088
00:37:17.164 –> 00:37:19.485
– first of all, it’s a very difficult question.

1089
00:37:19.485 –> 00:37:22.445
– And quite frankly, I think that if someone

1090
00:37:22.445 –> 00:37:25.265
– is out, if someone is done,

1091
00:37:25.724 –> 00:37:28.945
– if they are really, really, really done

1092
00:37:29.609 –> 00:37:31.369
– because they want their cake and eat it

1093
00:37:31.369 –> 00:37:31.869
– too.

1094
00:37:32.170 –> 00:37:34.889
– Yeah? So I don’t necessarily know that there’s

1095
00:37:34.889 –> 00:37:37.130
– a place where I would like participate in

1096
00:37:37.130 –> 00:37:39.210
– convincing somebody to stay. Sure. I agree with

1097
00:37:39.210 –> 00:37:41.210
– that. Interested. I’m not that’s not a reason

1098
00:37:41.210 –> 00:37:43.514
– to come to me. Right? Okay. So, yes,

1099
00:37:43.514 –> 00:37:45.454
– I think that I can be extremely

1100
00:37:46.234 –> 00:37:48.255
– motivating in the sense of

1101
00:37:48.554 –> 00:37:50.394
– here’s where the light at the end of

1102
00:37:50.394 –> 00:37:52.974
– the tunnel is. Okay. So we’re talking about

1103
00:37:53.674 –> 00:37:54.494
– and, again,

1104
00:37:55.034 –> 00:37:55.775
– big picture.

1105
00:37:56.340 –> 00:37:57.559
– Conviction big picture.

1106
00:37:58.260 –> 00:37:59.000
– The connection

1107
00:37:59.539 –> 00:38:00.360
– the connection

1108
00:38:01.300 –> 00:38:04.019
– is the North Star. And I really have

1109
00:38:04.019 –> 00:38:05.000
– rarely met.

1110
00:38:05.380 –> 00:38:06.119
– I’ve met

1111
00:38:06.500 –> 00:38:07.000
– people,

1112
00:38:07.300 –> 00:38:07.800
– couples,

1113
00:38:08.260 –> 00:38:09.160
– men, women,

1114
00:38:09.614 –> 00:38:10.355
– who are

1115
00:38:10.974 –> 00:38:14.675
– extremely discouraged and they are so fed up.

1116
00:38:14.894 –> 00:38:18.014
– And there’s been multiple discoveries and yes, those

1117
00:38:18.014 –> 00:38:18.994
– are the realities.

1118
00:38:19.775 –> 00:38:20.275
– However,

1119
00:38:20.735 –> 00:38:22.255
– if the light at the end of the

1120
00:38:22.255 –> 00:38:23.315
– tunnel is,

1121
00:38:24.480 –> 00:38:26.019
– I actually have moments,

1122
00:38:26.400 –> 00:38:27.460
– I have glimmers

1123
00:38:28.079 –> 00:38:29.219
– of this person,

1124
00:38:29.760 –> 00:38:31.760
– why I chose him or her in the

1125
00:38:31.760 –> 00:38:34.480
– first place. Mhmm. And I believe that that

1126
00:38:34.480 –> 00:38:34.980
– person

1127
00:38:35.855 –> 00:38:39.155
– still at their core exists and I believe

1128
00:38:39.214 –> 00:38:40.194
– that that person

1129
00:38:40.894 –> 00:38:42.034
– truly wants

1130
00:38:42.574 –> 00:38:43.234
– to become

1131
00:38:44.174 –> 00:38:45.315
– more of that

1132
00:38:45.614 –> 00:38:46.514
– more consistently,

1133
00:38:47.775 –> 00:38:50.880
– then I will continue to buy in. Am

1134
00:38:50.880 –> 00:38:52.480
– I answering the questions also? You are. You

1135
00:38:52.480 –> 00:38:53.920
– are. You are. Absolutely. Not a lot. As

1136
00:38:53.920 –> 00:38:56.480
– far as the waning conviction, it still comes

1137
00:38:56.480 –> 00:38:58.239
– down. You’re asking me to talk to the

1138
00:38:58.239 –> 00:39:00.900
– couple, to me and me. Why does anybody

1139
00:39:01.279 –> 00:39:03.380
– go back to the gym? Why does anybody

1140
00:39:03.519 –> 00:39:05.619
– go back to the gym? Why does anybody

1141
00:39:05.760 –> 00:39:08.454
– put away the bag of potato chips before

1142
00:39:08.454 –> 00:39:09.434
– they finish it?

1143
00:39:09.735 –> 00:39:10.235
– Because

1144
00:39:10.775 –> 00:39:14.054
– the cost far outweighs the benefit. Yeah. So

1145
00:39:14.054 –> 00:39:15.835
– you’re asking me what is the benefit?

1146
00:39:16.375 –> 00:39:18.795
– The benefit has to be and this is,

1147
00:39:19.039 –> 00:39:20.960
– you know, this is where I really try

1148
00:39:20.960 –> 00:39:22.639
– to get to the nuts and bolts, the

1149
00:39:22.639 –> 00:39:23.139
– benefits.

1150
00:39:24.000 –> 00:39:26.420
– I believe that the benefits are there unless,

1151
00:39:26.639 –> 00:39:27.780
– Roland, unless

1152
00:39:28.400 –> 00:39:28.900
– unless

1153
00:39:29.359 –> 00:39:30.500
– they are clearly

1154
00:39:31.295 –> 00:39:31.795
– buried,

1155
00:39:32.095 –> 00:39:34.974
– dead, and gone. Yeah. Sure. You know? And

1156
00:39:34.974 –> 00:39:36.815
– there are those cases in speaking to the

1157
00:39:36.815 –> 00:39:39.295
– Gottmans. Yes. There are those cases. And I

1158
00:39:39.454 –> 00:39:41.535
– I’m not gonna make believe there aren’t those

1159
00:39:41.535 –> 00:39:44.195
– cases because there’s been too much

1160
00:39:44.679 –> 00:39:45.820
– irreparable damage

1161
00:39:46.199 –> 00:39:46.699
– done,

1162
00:39:47.079 –> 00:39:49.480
– okay, to the trust. Okay? I’m not gonna

1163
00:39:49.480 –> 00:39:51.320
– do victim and villain here because I don’t

1164
00:39:51.320 –> 00:39:52.780
– really think that’s helpful either.

1165
00:39:53.079 –> 00:39:53.579
– However,

1166
00:39:54.039 –> 00:39:55.099
– if there are glimmers,

1167
00:39:55.640 –> 00:39:58.485
– if there’s connection, if I lean into that

1168
00:39:58.485 –> 00:40:01.525
– hard conversation she wanted to have, and if

1169
00:40:01.525 –> 00:40:02.345
– we then

1170
00:40:03.365 –> 00:40:05.465
– feel good going into tomorrow,

1171
00:40:06.164 –> 00:40:08.085
– I think that’s the buy in. Yeah. I

1172
00:40:08.085 –> 00:40:10.085
– agree with that. I think the couples who

1173
00:40:10.085 –> 00:40:11.480
– I see finally pop out, at least I

1174
00:40:11.559 –> 00:40:12.920
– well, I’ll speak I’ll speak to my wife

1175
00:40:12.920 –> 00:40:14.199
– and I just because I can’t speak for

1176
00:40:14.199 –> 00:40:14.699
– them.

1177
00:40:15.079 –> 00:40:16.219
– It was a decision.

1178
00:40:17.400 –> 00:40:19.559
– It was a decision, but I’m actually gonna

1179
00:40:19.559 –> 00:40:20.619
– put it on her.

1180
00:40:20.920 –> 00:40:24.045
– She just made the choice one day, Cause

1181
00:40:24.045 –> 00:40:25.005
– I did. I told her, I was like,

1182
00:40:25.005 –> 00:40:26.605
– listen, I I think I’m out. I just

1183
00:40:26.684 –> 00:40:27.505
– this is just,

1184
00:40:27.885 –> 00:40:29.405
– you know, I just I love to live

1185
00:40:29.405 –> 00:40:30.925
– life and this is just not this is

1186
00:40:30.925 –> 00:40:32.605
– so incongruent with the life that I want.

1187
00:40:32.605 –> 00:40:33.885
– I had nothing to do with her. I

1188
00:40:33.885 –> 00:40:35.085
– was just like, you know, I just don’t

1189
00:40:35.085 –> 00:40:36.204
– I don’t know if I have it in

1190
00:40:36.204 –> 00:40:37.859
– me. I think high achievers high achieving men,

1191
00:40:37.859 –> 00:40:40.259
– I think, tap out earlier than than some.

1192
00:40:40.259 –> 00:40:42.359
– It’s just I have such a lust for

1193
00:40:42.900 –> 00:40:43.400
– living

1194
00:40:44.179 –> 00:40:47.159
– that my tolerance for not being fully expressed

1195
00:40:47.380 –> 00:40:49.299
– is just lower, I think, than the general

1196
00:40:49.299 –> 00:40:50.579
– pop. And it has and and and I’m

1197
00:40:50.579 –> 00:40:52.394
– I’m sad about that because I think that

1198
00:40:52.554 –> 00:40:55.114
– I think I pushed her way harder than

1199
00:40:55.114 –> 00:40:56.795
– I wish I pushed her. But at the

1200
00:40:56.795 –> 00:40:58.715
– same time, I told her I just this

1201
00:40:58.715 –> 00:41:00.394
– is very important to me. Like, I wanna

1202
00:41:00.394 –> 00:41:01.755
– see and then but then there was a

1203
00:41:01.755 –> 00:41:04.074
– decision that was made on her side that

1204
00:41:04.074 –> 00:41:05.914
– was, no, I get that. And I do

1205
00:41:05.914 –> 00:41:07.755
– understand that if that I I do see

1206
00:41:07.755 –> 00:41:09.289
– it. She saw it. She’s like, I I

1207
00:41:09.289 –> 00:41:10.730
– don’t know if we can go or not.

1208
00:41:10.730 –> 00:41:12.010
– Like, I think we are. I think you

1209
00:41:12.010 –> 00:41:13.690
– are at your breaking point. And she just

1210
00:41:13.690 –> 00:41:15.690
– made a decision. It wasn’t that she got

1211
00:41:15.690 –> 00:41:17.210
– over it. She just made a decision to

1212
00:41:17.210 –> 00:41:18.650
– be like, I am going to deal with

1213
00:41:18.650 –> 00:41:20.429
– this in a very healthy way

1214
00:41:20.889 –> 00:41:22.750
– to see how minimally I can

1215
00:41:23.130 –> 00:41:23.869
– have this

1216
00:41:24.305 –> 00:41:26.864
– activate him, take away from his joy, rob

1217
00:41:26.864 –> 00:41:28.065
– him of any more. And so it wasn’t

1218
00:41:28.065 –> 00:41:29.985
– that she would be ignored. It was just,

1219
00:41:29.985 –> 00:41:32.164
– basically, what can we do in a healthiest

1220
00:41:32.224 –> 00:41:33.125
– way possible

1221
00:41:33.505 –> 00:41:35.025
– to get what I need in in a

1222
00:41:35.025 –> 00:41:37.025
– very healthy way while also trying to find

1223
00:41:37.025 –> 00:41:38.400
– a way to get back to our to

1224
00:41:38.400 –> 00:41:40.880
– life and have him be fully expressed. And

1225
00:41:40.880 –> 00:41:41.859
– it was a decision.

1226
00:41:42.239 –> 00:41:43.920
– And so in no way was she over

1227
00:41:43.920 –> 00:41:46.000
– it. In no way did she not have

1228
00:41:46.239 –> 00:41:48.319
– in no way. But you know what’s funny?

1229
00:41:48.319 –> 00:41:51.059
– My conviction came back because I saw somebody

1230
00:41:51.119 –> 00:41:52.819
– who wanted me to thrive,

1231
00:41:53.204 –> 00:41:55.525
– who didn’t wanna punish me. And that was

1232
00:41:55.525 –> 00:41:57.045
– was like, oh my gosh. I can do

1233
00:41:57.045 –> 00:41:58.905
– this now. So I do think

1234
00:41:59.364 –> 00:42:00.664
– there is a medium

1235
00:42:00.965 –> 00:42:02.805
– that we need to achieve. It’s a couple.

1236
00:42:02.805 –> 00:42:04.565
– It’s not, oh, you betrayed me, so now

1237
00:42:04.565 –> 00:42:06.244
– you have to eat shit sandwiches for the

1238
00:42:06.244 –> 00:42:07.619
– rest of because that I don’t that’s just

1239
00:42:07.699 –> 00:42:08.980
– you know, for hygiene, ma’am, I’m sorry. That’s

1240
00:42:08.980 –> 00:42:10.579
– just ain’t gonna work. You know? I’m sorry,

1241
00:42:10.579 –> 00:42:12.260
– but that just isn’t. They just I can

1242
00:42:12.260 –> 00:42:13.619
– only I can eat a few of them,

1243
00:42:13.619 –> 00:42:15.639
– but if I am fed one unpredictable

1244
00:42:16.179 –> 00:42:18.199
– amounts at unpredictable times,

1245
00:42:18.739 –> 00:42:20.260
– I’m gonna tap out. And I think I

1246
00:42:20.260 –> 00:42:22.284
– think you said it so well. I think

1247
00:42:22.284 –> 00:42:24.204
– the conviction needs to be fostered, and I

1248
00:42:24.204 –> 00:42:25.485
– think the couple has to do that. I

1249
00:42:25.485 –> 00:42:27.164
– don’t think the therapist can do that. I

1250
00:42:27.164 –> 00:42:29.164
– think the couple has to decide. So last

1251
00:42:29.164 –> 00:42:29.985
– question before

1252
00:42:30.445 –> 00:42:32.525
– we end, what would you say to men

1253
00:42:32.525 –> 00:42:33.264
– who are,

1254
00:42:33.724 –> 00:42:36.510
– who do wonder, do I am I convictedly

1255
00:42:37.609 –> 00:42:39.769
– in recovery? How would you ask how to

1256
00:42:39.769 –> 00:42:41.529
– measure that, and what would you tell them

1257
00:42:41.529 –> 00:42:44.029
– to ask themselves to assess it?

1258
00:42:44.809 –> 00:42:46.429
– Okay. So am I convictedly

1259
00:42:46.889 –> 00:42:47.630
– in recovery?

1260
00:42:48.315 –> 00:42:49.534
– I think that,

1261
00:42:49.914 –> 00:42:50.414
– obviously,

1262
00:42:50.954 –> 00:42:51.775
– there’s measurable.

1263
00:42:52.074 –> 00:42:53.994
– I mean, are we talking about measurable? Are

1264
00:42:53.994 –> 00:42:56.714
– we talking about philosophical? Because Both. Both. We’re

1265
00:42:56.714 –> 00:42:58.974
– talking about both? Okay. So, obviously, the measurable

1266
00:42:59.034 –> 00:43:00.894
– parts are like, you know,

1267
00:43:01.195 –> 00:43:02.014
– am I lying?

1268
00:43:02.500 –> 00:43:04.980
– Am I going outside the the marital agreement

1269
00:43:04.980 –> 00:43:06.980
– and everybody has been wrong? I mean, I’m

1270
00:43:06.980 –> 00:43:09.219
– not gonna tell I mean, every marital agreement

1271
00:43:09.219 –> 00:43:11.380
– is different. I mean, you know, some include

1272
00:43:11.380 –> 00:43:14.119
– porn, some didn’t don’t include porn. Okay? So

1273
00:43:14.180 –> 00:43:16.579
– am I staying within the marital agreement and

1274
00:43:16.579 –> 00:43:18.135
– that has to be respected and that has

1275
00:43:18.534 –> 00:43:19.735
– to be something that I signed on the

1276
00:43:19.735 –> 00:43:21.494
– bottom line about? Again, am I being an

1277
00:43:21.494 –> 00:43:23.494
– adult? Because I’m the one that took the

1278
00:43:23.494 –> 00:43:25.655
– pendant on the one that signed. Yes? Okay.

1279
00:43:25.655 –> 00:43:27.655
– That’s the behavioral part. That’s actually the easy

1280
00:43:27.655 –> 00:43:30.454
– part. And am I doing that? And if

1281
00:43:30.454 –> 00:43:31.675
– I’m not doing that,

1282
00:43:32.239 –> 00:43:34.239
– okay, then no. No. No. No. I do

1283
00:43:34.239 –> 00:43:36.659
– not have the conviction. And let me admit

1284
00:43:36.880 –> 00:43:38.559
– that I don’t have the conviction. Does that

1285
00:43:38.559 –> 00:43:41.119
– make me a horrible person? No. I just

1286
00:43:41.119 –> 00:43:43.119
– can’t walk around. Yeah. And go to your

1287
00:43:43.119 –> 00:43:45.119
– and go to your recovery group and tell

1288
00:43:45.119 –> 00:43:47.244
– them to help you get convicted. I have

1289
00:43:47.244 –> 00:43:49.804
– this happen every two months in my group.

1290
00:43:49.804 –> 00:43:51.824
– Somebody comes in and says, guys, I

1291
00:43:53.085 –> 00:43:54.684
– I don’t know. I have lost you know,

1292
00:43:54.684 –> 00:43:56.364
– some somebody sell me on why I’m doing

1293
00:43:56.364 –> 00:43:59.164
– this again. And that’s okay. It’s that honesty,

1294
00:43:59.164 –> 00:44:00.300
– the ownership. Yes.

1295
00:44:00.699 –> 00:44:02.940
– Yeah. And then as far as the the

1296
00:44:02.940 –> 00:44:03.440
– philosophical

1297
00:44:03.900 –> 00:44:06.380
– piece, it’s and this is where my, you

1298
00:44:06.380 –> 00:44:09.260
– know, empathy I mean, it’s true though because

1299
00:44:09.260 –> 00:44:10.699
– I as much passion as I have is

1300
00:44:10.699 –> 00:44:12.940
– also is my endless well of empathy because

1301
00:44:12.940 –> 00:44:15.085
– I truly truly do. And I, you know,

1302
00:44:15.085 –> 00:44:17.324
– I became a partner specialist before I became

1303
00:44:17.324 –> 00:44:19.164
– a CSAT, so I didn’t even know that

1304
00:44:19.164 –> 00:44:21.244
– I had this kind of empathy that for

1305
00:44:21.244 –> 00:44:22.785
– for addicts. It actually

1306
00:44:23.164 –> 00:44:25.905
– was a surprise to me being perfectly honest

1307
00:44:26.045 –> 00:44:28.065
– and a very welcome surprise. But

1308
00:44:28.400 –> 00:44:30.340
– the empathy is more for,

1309
00:44:31.039 –> 00:44:32.019
– oh my god,

1310
00:44:32.640 –> 00:44:33.300
– the shame.

1311
00:44:33.840 –> 00:44:37.119
– I keep believing that I’m this, but in

1312
00:44:37.119 –> 00:44:37.619
– actuality,

1313
00:44:38.640 –> 00:44:42.085
– I’m showing up as that and that just

1314
00:44:42.085 –> 00:44:43.925
– feels like shit and I can make believe

1315
00:44:43.925 –> 00:44:46.184
– it doesn’t. I can walk into the boardroom.

1316
00:44:46.565 –> 00:44:47.845
– I could sit at the head of the

1317
00:44:47.845 –> 00:44:48.345
– table.

1318
00:44:48.805 –> 00:44:50.805
– I can make believe that I have my

1319
00:44:50.805 –> 00:44:51.625
– shit together

1320
00:44:51.925 –> 00:44:53.605
– and that I walk the walk and talk

1321
00:44:53.605 –> 00:44:56.780
– the talk. However, between me and me, I

1322
00:44:56.780 –> 00:44:57.280
– just

1323
00:44:57.659 –> 00:44:59.679
– generally don’t feel that way.

1324
00:45:00.059 –> 00:45:02.000
– So when the shame from

1325
00:45:02.380 –> 00:45:02.960
– a philosophical

1326
00:45:03.260 –> 00:45:05.579
– and from a practical point of view, when

1327
00:45:05.579 –> 00:45:06.239
– the shame

1328
00:45:06.539 –> 00:45:07.920
– becomes the cost,

1329
00:45:08.539 –> 00:45:09.820
– that’s the buy in, and that’s where I

1330
00:45:09.820 –> 00:45:11.812
– have the most empathy. And that’s where I

1331
00:45:11.812 –> 00:45:13.264
– find find the most moving.

1332
00:45:13.644 –> 00:45:15.105
– When the shame and the secrets

1333
00:45:16.045 –> 00:45:16.545
– interfere

1334
00:45:18.125 –> 00:45:18.625
– with

1335
00:45:19.484 –> 00:45:20.385
– another day,

1336
00:45:21.005 –> 00:45:22.784
– another getting out of bed,

1337
00:45:23.565 –> 00:45:25.984
– does the shame and does the secrecy

1338
00:45:26.764 –> 00:45:27.264
– interfere

1339
00:45:28.130 –> 00:45:29.269
– with everything

1340
00:45:29.730 –> 00:45:30.869
– when at the beginning,

1341
00:45:31.329 –> 00:45:33.730
– it was a solution, but now it’s the

1342
00:45:33.730 –> 00:45:36.530
– problem. Yes. Well said. Very well said. I

1343
00:45:36.530 –> 00:45:38.849
– think that’s the the, you know, determining where

1344
00:45:38.849 –> 00:45:40.530
– you are on that spectrum. And, guys, it

1345
00:45:40.530 –> 00:45:42.054
– is a spectrum. So understand, it’s not that

1346
00:45:42.054 –> 00:45:44.474
– you have conviction or don’t have conviction. It’s

1347
00:45:44.614 –> 00:45:45.815
– there’s been time and I know all of

1348
00:45:45.815 –> 00:45:47.655
– the guys can resonate with this. There’s been

1349
00:45:47.655 –> 00:45:49.914
– a time where you felt that strongly,

1350
00:45:50.375 –> 00:45:53.015
– and the right thing was without question the

1351
00:45:53.015 –> 00:45:55.114
– thing you want. And then there’s times where

1352
00:45:55.530 –> 00:45:57.869
– the right thing’s harder in the face of

1353
00:45:58.090 –> 00:46:00.329
– short term gain. Right? So we all know

1354
00:46:00.329 –> 00:46:02.329
– that. Right? It’s a spectrum. Yes. Now last

1355
00:46:02.329 –> 00:46:04.650
– question, Dale. Where are you licensed? How do

1356
00:46:04.650 –> 00:46:06.890
– people find you? Who do you work with?

1357
00:46:06.890 –> 00:46:07.869
– Give them the details.

1358
00:46:08.335 –> 00:46:10.114
– I’m licensed in six states.

1359
00:46:10.574 –> 00:46:14.275
– In alphabetical order, they’re Connecticut, and they’re Colorado,

1360
00:46:14.574 –> 00:46:15.074
– and

1361
00:46:15.775 –> 00:46:17.394
– Florida, and Indiana,

1362
00:46:17.934 –> 00:46:20.515
– and New York, and New Jersey.

1363
00:46:20.974 –> 00:46:22.829
– I think that was all of them. Yep.

1364
00:46:22.829 –> 00:46:24.430
– Yep. I have an email, and I have

1365
00:46:24.430 –> 00:46:25.869
– a phone number, and I have a website,

1366
00:46:25.869 –> 00:46:27.390
– and everything I’ll put those in the show

1367
00:46:27.390 –> 00:46:28.670
– I’ll put those in the show notes for

1368
00:46:28.670 –> 00:46:30.510
– people who need to find them. Yep. This

1369
00:46:30.510 –> 00:46:32.269
– was such a great conversation. Thank you so

1370
00:46:32.269 –> 00:46:34.349
– much for joining us today. I I do.

1371
00:46:34.349 –> 00:46:35.910
– I think conviction’s the key to recovery, and

1372
00:46:35.910 –> 00:46:37.230
– I think you I think you’ve hit a

1373
00:46:37.230 –> 00:46:38.510
– nail on a head. If you’re gonna go

1374
00:46:38.510 –> 00:46:40.405
– the distance with this thing, you can’t do

1375
00:46:40.405 –> 00:46:42.005
– it without conviction. So thanks for your time.

1376
00:46:42.085 –> 00:46:43.464
– So much for having me.

1377
00:46:44.484 –> 00:46:46.644
– Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1378
00:46:46.644 –> 00:46:48.405
– are a high achiever of the sex addiction

1379
00:46:48.405 –> 00:46:50.164
– and you’re looking for a recovery group full

1380
00:46:50.164 –> 00:46:53.260
– of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1381
00:46:53.260 –> 00:46:56.059
– We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1382
00:46:56.059 –> 00:46:57.440
– using four day retreats,

1383
00:46:57.739 –> 00:47:00.539
– weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1384
00:47:00.539 –> 00:47:02.699
– If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1385
00:47:02.699 –> 00:47:04.675
– save your marriage, go to our website and

1386
00:47:04.675 –> 00:47:05.574
– fill out our application.

1387
00:47:05.875 –> 00:47:08.355
– If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1388
00:47:08.355 –> 00:47:09.954
– along to a friend in recovery who would

1389
00:47:09.954 –> 00:47:11.954
– benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1390
00:47:11.954 –> 00:47:13.714
– get this information out to as many high

1391
00:47:13.714 –> 00:47:15.954
– achievers as possible, and I can’t do it

1392
00:47:15.954 –> 00:47:16.934
– without your help.