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– The financial

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– aspect

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– of infidelity

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– wasn’t just a second tier

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– let’s kinda not talk about money.

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– It often rides alongside. So interesting bedfellows,

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– sex and money and and financial infidelity.

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– At times, I’ve told partners or couples who

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– come in to see me, and I really

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– work with both populations,

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– that the financial

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– can be much more injurious

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– long term

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– than the sexual. Sexual one will heal or

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– not, but the money can have cascading impact

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– across generations

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– based on or depending on what type of

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– infidelity

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– an individual or couple are addressing.

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– You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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– for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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– This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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– recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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– high achiever. I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder

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– of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for

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– high achieving men struggling with sex and porn

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– addiction. For more information about joining our group

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– or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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– And now enjoy the rest of the episode.

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– Welcome, Deborah. So nice to have you with

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– us today.

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– Thank you, Rula. It’s a pleasure. So what

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– an interesting topic and something that when I

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– heard… So I I… This this topic caught

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– my eye. I was listening to another podcast

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– and I saw that you were on there

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– and I think, you know what? I know

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– nothing about

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– this other

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– form of betrayal. And as I thought about

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– it and listen to the podcast, I’m thinking,

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– oh my goodness. This has affected probably 60,

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– 70, if not 80%

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– of my clients in a really big way.

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– And it kinda hit me, Deborah. What have

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– they done if anything to get past this

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– or is it something that kind of has

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– gotten forgotten and overshadowed because of the sexual

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– betrayal?

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– So Deborah, first off, talk to the audience

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– about

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– financial betrayal. How did you get into this?

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– What’s your… I I need to know the

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– story. How how did this capture your area

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– of expertise?

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– That might really take us off track. However,

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– I’ll give you the the short of it.

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– The short version. Sure. I’m

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– a commodity option trader,

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– and I’ve traded on Wall Street for many

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– years. I I don’t work on Wall Street

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– anymore. I’m a therapist. However,

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– I still trade every day. And so I

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– have a lot of financial

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– literacy

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– experience

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– and know how.

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– When I did

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– bring my psychology and business together and start

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– working in addiction,

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– it became very clear to me that people,

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– folks who would come to see me, be

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– it a couple or an individual,

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– that were working around and addressing betrayal,

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– that the sexual betrayal

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– was often spotlighted

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– in the session because that is what captures

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– most

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– partners and for very good reason is what

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– destabilizes

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– relationships.

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– What I began to also recognize

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– that the financial

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– aspect

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– of infidelity

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– wasn’t just a second tier

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– let’s kind of not talk about money,

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– it often rides alongside.

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– So interesting bedfellows,

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– sex and money and and financial infidelity.

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– At times, I’ve told partners or couples who

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– come in to see me, and I really

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– work with both populations,

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– that the financial

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– can be much more injurious

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– long term

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– than the sexual. Sexual one will heal or

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– not, but the money can have cascading

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– impact

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– across generations

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– based on or depending on what type of

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– infidelity

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– an individual or couple are addressing.

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– So my interest in money and my interest

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– in how

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– people structure

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– their

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– assets

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– is something that I work very strongly with.

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– And my fascination

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– with money, Wall Street investing,

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– and as a trader has never really left.

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– It’s always sitting alongside in the work I

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– do. Mhmm. Yeah. What what if what if

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– he said it? And think and think about

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– it. Right? We live in a… My my

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– wife asked me an interesting question the other

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– day. She said, what are they gonna call

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– us? Right? Like, we have the, you know,

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– you have the name for all the previous

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– generations and versions of humanity and civilization.

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– And I said easy. I don’t even have

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– to think about it. They’re gonna call us

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– the capitalists. And the reason I bring up

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– that conversation we had just a week ago

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– was,

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– think about it. If that’s how our tribe

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– operates right now, that is safety. And so

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– think about it. When we’re talking about betrayal,

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– we’re talking about safety in the relationship. And,

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– yes, okay, sexual safety is one aspect, but

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– financial safety is one piece. Yes. Yes. Correct.

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– Currency. Correct. So well said. So for the

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– listeners, just so they understand, like, what we’re

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– gonna be talking about today… And and, Trevor,

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– I want you to bring in a couple

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– other things that I missed.

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– Yes. We’re gonna talk about the financial betrayal

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– in terms of money that was hidden, money

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– that was stolen, money that was that was

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– somewhere else that you thought was somewhere else.

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– We’re also going to talk about

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– how

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– important it is to have these financial conversations

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– so that partners feel safe to leave. I’ve

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– talked about this on other episodes, but this

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– is a very critical piece. They need to

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– understand that they are not trapped financially

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– in this marriage. That’s a very frightening place

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– to be, and Deborah will speak on on

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– the psychology behind that. We will also talk

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– about, yeah, the the damage, especially from a

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– family dynamic of all the money that was

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– not spent and the things that we didn’t

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– have money for. Right? I mean… And then

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– we’d listen back. I mean, almost… It feels

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– like such a gaslighting experience. Like, here you

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– are that year, and you said we didn’t

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– have it. And then all of a sudden,

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– you had plenty of it for your affair

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– partner, and you guys were here and there,

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– and the trip was supposed to… The business

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– trip was supposed to end on the fourth,

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– and then you stayed with her until the

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– tenth, and you told us something different and

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– missed this and… Can I can I interject

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– for some? You to and… Do you interject

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– and also add any other topics that we’re

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– going to cover today?

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– I was interviewed on a podcast

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– sometime last year and the interviewer

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– said, look, I have to be self revealing

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– here.

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– I grew up and

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– often was denied things that I really wanted

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– while in the interviewer’s mind, the interviewer said

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– we didn’t have the money or so I

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– was told.

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– The interviewer found out, no. Actually, my dad

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– was acting out, and I never got what

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– I really wanted. I don’t wanna name what

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– the item is. It’ll be too revealing.

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– What

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– the individual that went on… The interviewer went

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– on to say is that they had a

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– conversation. Gratefully, they could talk with their dad,

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– and the dad now in recovery, the family

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– in recovery said, I wanna make it right.

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– Mhmm.

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– That was such a beautiful moment, but I

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– could hear in the interviewer’s voice the pain

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– and hurt and the betrayal Mhmm. Into the

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– family system, to the child

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– who

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– doesn’t know. So there’s that duplicity

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– and being lied to,

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– but also not having any control to change

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– their particular Yeah. So we’ll see. Yeah. So

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– we’ll see. Yeah. That that miss…

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– That I was under a different impression of

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– our life, and now I’m understanding that we

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– were under… I mean, what a betrayal

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– to the adult children now at that point

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– in time. Absolutely. Any other… Just high level

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– topic. I’m sure we’re gonna go in all

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– sorts of directions, but any other high level

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– topics that you want the listeners to, be

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– aware of? Third real topic, post nubs. Yeah.

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– Yeah. Yes. My wife and I have one.

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– I’m actually a big believer in one, and

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– I think my wife and I have, we

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– update it every two years. And that’s fine.

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– You put a a post nup in place

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– because?

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– We put a post nup in place because

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– she expressed that she did not feel

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– like she had a full… Because because again,

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– as you know, this… Most of my listeners

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– are high achieving entrepreneurial and, yes, we have

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– losses and strategic losses. And there are years

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– where we intentionally try to lose, and then

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– there are years where we try… And the

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– problem was because she’s not a money person

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– like you and I, Deborah, she doesn’t understand…

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– There’s a lot of words she doesn’t understand.

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– And so I kept trying to explain to

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– her, hey. That’ll be here. That… But the

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– problem was she’s like, I don’t understand that.

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– I want a prenup that I can understand

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– represented by a lawyer who I hire that

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– you don’t hire. So we put one in

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– place because I… I’ve subscribed to the idea

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– that she should be able to feel safe

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– to leave me and that she is not

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– with me only because

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– of safety. I don’t want her to stay

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– with me for that reason. So we put

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– one in place for maximum health of our

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– marriage that that we would stay together if

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– we loved each other. Put a postnup in

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– place or the topic is brought up

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– post infidelity, post betrayal. Yes. Yes. Yes. And

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– so the betrayal

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– sexually

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– is something that many partners say, look, I’m

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– not gonna stay in this marriage or this

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– relationship

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– because I don’t trust you. I don’t feel

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– safe. I… You know, that that is like

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– a moniker

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– of betrayal.

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– What I ask betrayed partners to consider is

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– what do you need?

254
00:09:10.904 –> 00:09:13.004
– Magic wand. What do you need

255
00:09:13.544 –> 00:09:14.365
– to establish

256
00:09:14.985 –> 00:09:17.865
– safety? Mhmm. For you to say, okay. With

257
00:09:17.865 –> 00:09:20.399
– this criteria in place, I’m willing to work

258
00:09:20.399 –> 00:09:22.799
– on this relationship or this marriage. And so

259
00:09:22.799 –> 00:09:24.799
– if a betrayed partner says, I want to

260
00:09:24.799 –> 00:09:26.720
– know that there are funds here available for

261
00:09:26.720 –> 00:09:28.559
– me, that I can walk away, that I

262
00:09:28.559 –> 00:09:30.000
– will be okay, that I can take care

263
00:09:30.000 –> 00:09:31.120
– of the kids, and I can take care

264
00:09:31.120 –> 00:09:33.105
– of myself. This is what I wanna do.

265
00:09:33.184 –> 00:09:35.904
– There’s another lower piece to it, a much

266
00:09:35.904 –> 00:09:37.524
– more complicating aspect.

267
00:09:38.384 –> 00:09:41.504
– Women, and I don’t care what date someone

268
00:09:41.504 –> 00:09:43.424
– may be listening and watching this in the

269
00:09:43.424 –> 00:09:43.924
– future,

270
00:09:44.384 –> 00:09:45.445
– women today,

271
00:09:45.889 –> 00:09:48.529
– I don’t care also how experienced they are,

272
00:09:48.529 –> 00:09:52.210
– women tend to have lower confidence in their

273
00:09:52.210 –> 00:09:55.590
– understanding of finance. Sure. Sure. And many partners

274
00:09:55.730 –> 00:09:57.269
– who are intentionally

275
00:09:58.235 –> 00:10:01.855
– looking to deceive or are addict acting out

276
00:10:02.315 –> 00:10:04.235
– may say, look. It’s too complicated. You wouldn’t

277
00:10:04.235 –> 00:10:06.634
– get it, and you don’t understand the structure.

278
00:10:06.634 –> 00:10:09.375
– Or I’ll explain the structure to you, but

279
00:10:09.595 –> 00:10:11.269
– we’ve got this and we’ve got this corporate

280
00:10:11.269 –> 00:10:12.629
– shell and we’ve got that and, you know,

281
00:10:12.629 –> 00:10:14.149
– it drives through here and then, you know,

282
00:10:14.149 –> 00:10:16.230
– that we’ve got we’ve got… Meanwhile, this guy…

283
00:10:16.230 –> 00:10:18.710
– This is also a lying betrayer who has

284
00:10:18.710 –> 00:10:21.190
– no… Who she… Who… His word is worthless

285
00:10:21.190 –> 00:10:23.590
– too, by the way. Word is worthless even

286
00:10:23.590 –> 00:10:25.690
– if he happens to be saying

287
00:10:26.070 –> 00:10:26.730
– the truth.

288
00:10:27.485 –> 00:10:29.725
– Therefore, it isn’t about the post op that’s

289
00:10:29.725 –> 00:10:32.445
– put in place to create safety. It’s about

290
00:10:32.445 –> 00:10:35.504
– the partner understanding, wait a second. I need…

291
00:10:35.725 –> 00:10:37.184
– Want some education.

292
00:10:37.565 –> 00:10:39.644
– I wanna speak to a CPA, a forensic

293
00:10:39.644 –> 00:10:40.144
– attorney,

294
00:10:40.445 –> 00:10:41.825
– a forensic accountant,

295
00:10:42.129 –> 00:10:44.309
– or an attorney, or both or and

296
00:10:44.689 –> 00:10:47.089
– to get an idea of how are our

297
00:10:47.089 –> 00:10:50.789
– assets structured. Mhmm. Because there are flow through

298
00:10:51.250 –> 00:10:53.089
– trusts, and and there are a lot of

299
00:10:53.089 –> 00:10:54.149
– very sophisticated

300
00:10:54.529 –> 00:10:57.350
– ways to structure assets. Not a problem.

301
00:10:57.774 –> 00:10:59.774
– But it should never be at the expense

302
00:10:59.774 –> 00:11:02.095
– of what a betrayed partner is trying to

303
00:11:02.095 –> 00:11:03.934
– work through, smoke and screen and and, you

304
00:11:03.934 –> 00:11:06.274
– know, shield it. So a post nup

305
00:11:06.654 –> 00:11:09.774
– is also a very helpful way for a

306
00:11:09.774 –> 00:11:12.355
– partner to have stability and assurance

307
00:11:13.029 –> 00:11:15.610
– that regardless of what I, partner, don’t understand,

308
00:11:15.909 –> 00:11:18.389
– I still can walk away and know that

309
00:11:18.389 –> 00:11:20.870
– I’m taken care of as long as the

310
00:11:20.870 –> 00:11:21.370
– betrayer

311
00:11:22.230 –> 00:11:24.309
– is willing to be open, you know, full

312
00:11:24.309 –> 00:11:25.909
– kimono. And if there is a sense of,

313
00:11:25.909 –> 00:11:27.269
– well, you know, I really don’t wanna do

314
00:11:27.269 –> 00:11:29.404
– this, and this is this is punishment.

315
00:11:30.105 –> 00:11:32.264
– No. It’s not punishment. No more than a

316
00:11:32.264 –> 00:11:33.485
– prenup is punishment.

317
00:11:33.945 –> 00:11:36.504
– It’s about how do we wanna build trust

318
00:11:36.504 –> 00:11:39.165
– together given the person who has broken trust

319
00:11:39.465 –> 00:11:41.940
– has a lot of trust building to earn.

320
00:11:42.100 –> 00:11:43.779
– Yes. Well said. Well said. I have two

321
00:11:43.779 –> 00:11:46.019
– follow-up questions to that, and you can answer

322
00:11:46.019 –> 00:11:47.779
– them in in whatever order you think makes

323
00:11:47.779 –> 00:11:49.379
– sense before we move on from this topic

324
00:11:49.379 –> 00:11:50.820
– because I do think… I’m glad you started

325
00:11:50.820 –> 00:11:52.100
– with this because I do think that the

326
00:11:52.100 –> 00:11:54.340
– bulk of listeners are gonna want to have

327
00:11:54.340 –> 00:11:55.320
– this postnuptial

328
00:11:56.019 –> 00:11:59.215
– contract spoken to. Two follow-up questions. One is,

329
00:11:59.215 –> 00:12:01.695
– can you please explain… I’ve done this before

330
00:12:01.695 –> 00:12:04.654
– on podcast. Can you please explain to the

331
00:12:04.654 –> 00:12:05.154
– betrayer

332
00:12:05.695 –> 00:12:08.415
– why this is actually in their best interest?

333
00:12:08.415 –> 00:12:10.830
– A lot of people, they wanna hear psychologically

334
00:12:11.129 –> 00:12:13.769
– why this is actually better for the relational

335
00:12:13.769 –> 00:12:17.070
– healing. Second question is just high level quickly,

336
00:12:17.450 –> 00:12:19.290
– any other, like, things you want to mention

337
00:12:19.290 –> 00:12:21.690
– to the couples around how to set this

338
00:12:21.690 –> 00:12:22.750
– up? Because, again,

339
00:12:23.095 –> 00:12:25.894
– I was surprised how much I had to

340
00:12:25.894 –> 00:12:29.014
– help this thing get written well. You know,

341
00:12:29.014 –> 00:12:30.855
– there’s this perception in law that you’re gonna

342
00:12:30.855 –> 00:12:32.375
– go in and they know everything and they’re

343
00:12:32.375 –> 00:12:34.215
– gonna write a good one. That’s actually not

344
00:12:34.215 –> 00:12:36.294
– always true. They’re gonna write whatever they’re they’re

345
00:12:36.294 –> 00:12:38.509
– gonna write, and a lot of partners don’t

346
00:12:38.509 –> 00:12:40.350
– know what to ask for. So can you

347
00:12:40.350 –> 00:12:41.870
– speak to both of those elements before we

348
00:12:41.870 –> 00:12:44.429
– move on? Yeah. The what if is based

349
00:12:44.429 –> 00:12:44.929
– on

350
00:12:45.309 –> 00:12:48.289
– what is the true intention for the couple.

351
00:12:48.589 –> 00:12:51.894
– If the betrayer and the betrayed both in

352
00:12:51.894 –> 00:12:52.394
– sincerity

353
00:12:53.014 –> 00:12:55.495
– wanna work on the marriage and there’s been

354
00:12:55.495 –> 00:12:58.214
– a a sexual disclosure, a full therapeutic disclosure

355
00:12:58.214 –> 00:12:59.034
– taking place,

356
00:12:59.495 –> 00:13:02.134
– a full financial disclosure if necessary, and that

357
00:13:02.134 –> 00:13:04.315
– is its own topic also for a podcast.

358
00:13:04.549 –> 00:13:05.909
– But if all of that is in place

359
00:13:05.909 –> 00:13:07.589
– and the couple says, okay. We wanna move

360
00:13:07.589 –> 00:13:08.089
– forward,

361
00:13:08.470 –> 00:13:10.009
– then the betrayer

362
00:13:10.870 –> 00:13:12.629
– who says, well, you know, look. I’ve been

363
00:13:12.629 –> 00:13:14.709
– honest. I’ve been going into meetings. I’ve been

364
00:13:14.709 –> 00:13:16.470
– working with a sponsor. I’m going to therapy.

365
00:13:16.470 –> 00:13:18.389
– What more do I need to do? A

366
00:13:18.389 –> 00:13:20.404
– lot. Mhmm. Whatever it takes.

367
00:13:20.945 –> 00:13:21.684
– And if

368
00:13:22.065 –> 00:13:22.565
– the

369
00:13:22.945 –> 00:13:25.684
– addict betrayer sees this as punishment,

370
00:13:26.384 –> 00:13:29.264
– that’s the first sign that, addict, you got

371
00:13:29.264 –> 00:13:30.485
– some more work to do.

372
00:13:30.865 –> 00:13:32.085
– Because if something

373
00:13:32.420 –> 00:13:35.080
– in your perception is being taken from you

374
00:13:35.139 –> 00:13:37.940
– rather than you are looking to build and

375
00:13:37.940 –> 00:13:39.559
– bring safety into…

376
00:13:40.100 –> 00:13:42.040
– Bring trust into the relationship,

377
00:13:43.059 –> 00:13:44.840
– if that’s not the paramount

378
00:13:45.540 –> 00:13:46.519
– leading belief,

379
00:13:47.144 –> 00:13:49.384
– then more work has to be done. The

380
00:13:49.384 –> 00:13:51.245
– safety, you know, it’s so counterintuitive.

381
00:13:52.665 –> 00:13:53.325
– The more

382
00:13:53.785 –> 00:13:54.445
– the betrayer

383
00:13:55.065 –> 00:13:56.045
– shows transparency,

384
00:13:57.225 –> 00:13:58.605
– the more there is trust.

385
00:13:59.705 –> 00:14:01.805
– The betrayer may walk around saying,

386
00:14:02.289 –> 00:14:04.049
– I can’t explain it enough. I mean, these

387
00:14:04.049 –> 00:14:06.289
– are the words I’ve heard. My partner doesn’t

388
00:14:06.289 –> 00:14:09.330
– understand. I’m gonna I’m gonna use she female

389
00:14:09.330 –> 00:14:10.789
– tense because that’s heteronormatively

390
00:14:11.649 –> 00:14:14.690
– and also very sexist. Sexist. But, hey, that’s

391
00:14:14.690 –> 00:14:15.590
– not my word.

392
00:14:16.235 –> 00:14:16.735
– But

393
00:14:17.195 –> 00:14:19.195
– I’m I’m actually… This is the percentage of

394
00:14:19.195 –> 00:14:19.695
– couples.

395
00:14:20.154 –> 00:14:22.254
– If she doesn’t get it, she doesn’t understand.

396
00:14:22.714 –> 00:14:24.955
– No matter how many times I’ve told her,

397
00:14:24.955 –> 00:14:26.654
– she doesn’t seem to get the concept,

398
00:14:27.195 –> 00:14:29.934
– that already is starting from a really contemptuous

399
00:14:30.075 –> 00:14:32.509
– place. Yes. And, guys, really listen to what

400
00:14:32.509 –> 00:14:34.929
– Deborah’s saying. Regardless of

401
00:14:35.309 –> 00:14:36.910
– what you meant by that, even if you

402
00:14:36.910 –> 00:14:39.070
– meant well, I want you guys to understand

403
00:14:39.070 –> 00:14:39.889
– that language

404
00:14:40.269 –> 00:14:41.169
– that is not

405
00:14:41.549 –> 00:14:44.269
– from a rebuilding a trust standpoint. Again, Deborah

406
00:14:44.269 –> 00:14:45.855
– said it really well. We’re not asking you

407
00:14:45.855 –> 00:14:47.394
– guys to do anything unfair.

408
00:14:47.774 –> 00:14:50.014
– We’re not asking you to give her 90%.

409
00:14:50.014 –> 00:14:51.615
– That’s not what we’re saying. What we’re saying

410
00:14:51.615 –> 00:14:52.115
– is

411
00:14:52.575 –> 00:14:54.735
– what you’ve just committed and have done, we

412
00:14:54.735 –> 00:14:57.455
– really need every olive branch you can do

413
00:14:57.455 –> 00:14:59.375
– to show, hey. No. I wanna make this

414
00:14:59.375 –> 00:15:01.509
– right. I want you to feel safe. Let’s

415
00:15:01.509 –> 00:15:03.690
– set this up. Let’s go meet with Deborah.

416
00:15:03.750 –> 00:15:05.909
– Let’s get some of Deborah’s referrals and contacts.

417
00:15:05.909 –> 00:15:08.230
– Right? She wants to see a willingness there,

418
00:15:08.230 –> 00:15:11.269
– not excuse, excuse, excuse, excuse. Oh, it’s… My

419
00:15:11.269 –> 00:15:13.509
– my… Our financial situation is far too complicated.

420
00:15:13.509 –> 00:15:14.995
– No one will ever get it. Trust me.

421
00:15:14.995 –> 00:15:17.074
– There’s there’s there’s probably some other ones that

422
00:15:17.074 –> 00:15:19.074
– are way more complicated than yours. But, anyways,

423
00:15:19.074 –> 00:15:20.274
– I I didn’t mean to interrupt. I just

424
00:15:20.274 –> 00:15:22.355
– wanted the guys to understand. The money can

425
00:15:22.355 –> 00:15:23.954
– be a sticky one, and I would really

426
00:15:23.954 –> 00:15:26.034
– encourage you guys. Do not… You know, this

427
00:15:26.034 –> 00:15:27.814
– this needs to be an area of transparency

428
00:15:28.115 –> 00:15:30.320
– and willingness. Do not… This I do think

429
00:15:30.320 –> 00:15:31.220
– people underestimate

430
00:15:31.759 –> 00:15:33.919
– the sensitivity around money and the safety that’s

431
00:15:33.919 –> 00:15:35.759
– provided there. And it’s… It can really be…

432
00:15:35.759 –> 00:15:37.040
– We’re gonna get into this in the next

433
00:15:37.040 –> 00:15:38.879
– topic. This is a big betrayal. We haven’t

434
00:15:38.879 –> 00:15:41.120
– even got into what this does to people.

435
00:15:41.120 –> 00:15:42.585
– We’ll get into that here in a second.

436
00:15:42.665 –> 00:15:45.465
– Yeah. Anything to add there around what people

437
00:15:45.465 –> 00:15:47.705
– to… Before we move from post nubs, anything

438
00:15:47.705 –> 00:15:49.545
– to add to, like, what people should do

439
00:15:49.545 –> 00:15:51.225
– to go around Yeah. Let me get… Let

440
00:15:51.225 –> 00:15:53.565
– me answer your second question. Yeah, please. So

441
00:15:53.705 –> 00:15:54.205
– counterintuitively,

442
00:15:55.144 –> 00:15:55.644
– despite

443
00:15:55.990 –> 00:15:57.990
– what some betrayers may say, this is like

444
00:15:57.990 –> 00:15:59.750
– one bridge, you know, one bridge too far.

445
00:15:59.750 –> 00:16:01.990
– I’m just not willing to do this. Well,

446
00:16:01.990 –> 00:16:04.549
– then ask yourself, okay. Great. If you’re not

447
00:16:04.549 –> 00:16:06.230
– willing to do this, then where’s the next

448
00:16:06.230 –> 00:16:07.750
– line that you’re not willing to cross, and

449
00:16:07.750 –> 00:16:09.830
– what’s the next line? And you’re already putting

450
00:16:09.830 –> 00:16:12.084
– up barriers. So with the assumption

451
00:16:12.464 –> 00:16:14.725
– that your partner is not your enemy,

452
00:16:15.105 –> 00:16:16.945
– that you are in this together, that you

453
00:16:16.945 –> 00:16:19.024
– have each other’s back in the foxhole, because,

454
00:16:19.024 –> 00:16:20.784
– you know, anyone can have fun together. We

455
00:16:20.784 –> 00:16:22.625
– play well together, but that’s not the purpose

456
00:16:22.625 –> 00:16:25.319
– of couples. And if there’s about culling

457
00:16:25.620 –> 00:16:26.120
– assets

458
00:16:26.500 –> 00:16:27.399
– or culling

459
00:16:27.940 –> 00:16:31.139
– monies, funds, and finances that is about secret

460
00:16:31.139 –> 00:16:31.639
– keeping,

461
00:16:32.019 –> 00:16:34.759
– that too mentality has to be addressed before.

462
00:16:34.899 –> 00:16:37.879
– Sure. To the extent of who does this,

463
00:16:38.019 –> 00:16:40.279
– who sets this up. If the partner

464
00:16:40.875 –> 00:16:44.075
– doesn’t want the information because the betrayer is

465
00:16:44.075 –> 00:16:46.154
– the wrong messenger, even though he may have

466
00:16:46.154 –> 00:16:48.315
– the right message Mhmm. It may be the

467
00:16:48.315 –> 00:16:51.375
– wrong messenger. Yeah. So sit with professionals, financial

468
00:16:51.595 –> 00:16:52.095
– professionals,

469
00:16:52.715 –> 00:16:54.475
– ones that may be… And I have worked

470
00:16:54.475 –> 00:16:56.690
– with couples who in the past… I I

471
00:16:56.690 –> 00:16:58.450
– hate to say this. Look. There are shitty

472
00:16:58.450 –> 00:17:01.009
– therapists out there, but there are some accountants

473
00:17:01.009 –> 00:17:03.329
– that have been complicit in the betrayal, which

474
00:17:03.329 –> 00:17:04.309
– is egregious.

475
00:17:04.849 –> 00:17:07.190
– So if that’s about getting a new accountant,

476
00:17:07.730 –> 00:17:09.750
– a new team, a new financial

477
00:17:10.130 –> 00:17:11.829
– wealth manager, whatever it takes

478
00:17:12.304 –> 00:17:14.644
– to establish a clean slate,

479
00:17:15.025 –> 00:17:17.204
– then let the professionals do the talking

480
00:17:17.904 –> 00:17:20.785
– with the information that the couple gives. And

481
00:17:20.785 –> 00:17:23.285
– if the partner doesn’t have all that information,

482
00:17:23.505 –> 00:17:25.265
– then be present with the betrayer. I mean,

483
00:17:25.265 –> 00:17:28.109
– it’s it’s their money’s assuming that’s what’s going

484
00:17:28.109 –> 00:17:29.630
– into the post. Yeah. And and and my

485
00:17:29.630 –> 00:17:30.529
– wife wanted…

486
00:17:30.909 –> 00:17:32.589
– This was actually one area that she did

487
00:17:32.589 –> 00:17:33.950
– not. A lot of the time, she wants

488
00:17:33.950 –> 00:17:35.630
– me to help with the research, help find

489
00:17:35.630 –> 00:17:37.809
– the people, help find the resources, the intensives,

490
00:17:37.869 –> 00:17:39.634
– etcetera. Right? She wants help. This was actually

491
00:17:39.634 –> 00:17:41.815
– the one area, Deborah, that my wife wanted

492
00:17:42.115 –> 00:17:44.434
– to find her own people. Yeah. And it

493
00:17:44.434 –> 00:17:45.875
– makes sense. She wanted to take the lead

494
00:17:45.875 –> 00:17:47.394
– on that. Yes. Makes sense. So I just

495
00:17:47.394 –> 00:17:48.674
– want everyone to understand. And I do want

496
00:17:48.674 –> 00:17:49.875
– the guys just to hear before we go

497
00:17:49.875 –> 00:17:51.174
– on this next topic. Like,

498
00:17:51.649 –> 00:17:54.690
– guys, I’m with you. It’s really hard when

499
00:17:54.690 –> 00:17:56.630
– your family’s blown to pieces.

500
00:17:57.250 –> 00:18:00.130
– You’re already losing everything, and then there’s this

501
00:18:00.130 –> 00:18:03.250
– topic of losing money. I I wanna empathize

502
00:18:03.250 –> 00:18:05.509
– with the guys. There is a visceral response.

503
00:18:05.674 –> 00:18:07.434
– Okay? I just wanna empathize with the guys.

504
00:18:07.434 –> 00:18:09.755
– It’s…… Our missions. Right? Right. But that’s the

505
00:18:09.755 –> 00:18:10.815
– point is,

506
00:18:11.515 –> 00:18:13.434
– guys, you gotta understand. I get it. You

507
00:18:13.434 –> 00:18:14.255
– were fantasizing

508
00:18:14.634 –> 00:18:17.835
– about this figure, and now there’s this thought

509
00:18:17.835 –> 00:18:19.940
– that it’s gonna be close to half or

510
00:18:19.940 –> 00:18:21.859
– half or maybe even less than half depending

511
00:18:21.859 –> 00:18:23.000
– on on the situation.

512
00:18:23.779 –> 00:18:25.539
– I don’t know what else to tell you

513
00:18:25.539 –> 00:18:28.680
– guys, but this is just the natural consequence

514
00:18:28.740 –> 00:18:30.839
– of how that goes. You are two individuals,

515
00:18:31.384 –> 00:18:32.985
– and now this is this is the nature

516
00:18:32.985 –> 00:18:34.924
– of it. I just want… I mean…… Of

517
00:18:35.384 –> 00:18:37.785
– their own… Of of choice… Of your own

518
00:18:37.785 –> 00:18:40.424
– choices. Yes. Correct. This is… Yes. No one’s

519
00:18:40.424 –> 00:18:42.664
– the victim here. Correct. No one’s a victim

520
00:18:42.664 –> 00:18:43.884
– here. And

521
00:18:44.380 –> 00:18:46.380
– even if it’s in the ether, even if

522
00:18:46.380 –> 00:18:49.039
– it’s in the the essence of a conversation,

523
00:18:49.980 –> 00:18:51.119
– I really implore

524
00:18:51.900 –> 00:18:54.380
– those listeners who are kind of saying to

525
00:18:54.380 –> 00:18:56.240
– themselves, you know, the the the grumblings,

526
00:18:56.914 –> 00:18:59.154
– you know, we we got here because of

527
00:18:59.154 –> 00:19:00.534
– your actions. Yeah. Correct.

528
00:19:01.075 –> 00:19:02.774
– Mhmm. And so I think it’s about

529
00:19:03.315 –> 00:19:04.534
– taking accountability,

530
00:19:04.914 –> 00:19:05.894
– taking responsibility,

531
00:19:06.595 –> 00:19:09.474
– and showing up in your most integrative sense.

532
00:19:09.474 –> 00:19:11.420
– Yeah. It… It’s acceptance, Deborah. I mean, when

533
00:19:11.420 –> 00:19:13.580
– none of us want to… It’s it’s hard

534
00:19:13.580 –> 00:19:15.359
– to accept a consequence

535
00:19:16.059 –> 00:19:18.140
– that we must face. Okay? I’m I’m not

536
00:19:18.140 –> 00:19:19.759
– I’m not ever saying it’s easy,

537
00:19:20.059 –> 00:19:22.059
– but guys, this is just one of those

538
00:19:22.059 –> 00:19:24.059
– things. You must accept us. This is this

539
00:19:24.059 –> 00:19:25.704
– is where we are. Right? And I would

540
00:19:25.704 –> 00:19:28.024
– tell you this, the more willing you are

541
00:19:28.024 –> 00:19:29.004
– to accept that,

542
00:19:29.384 –> 00:19:31.144
– the lesser the likelihood that you guys will

543
00:19:31.144 –> 00:19:32.825
– ever have to even use this post op.

544
00:19:32.825 –> 00:19:35.304
– Right? Very well said. I mean… Very well

545
00:19:35.304 –> 00:19:36.845
– said. That’s what’s so counterintuitive.

546
00:19:37.625 –> 00:19:39.464
– Put it out there and the chances are

547
00:19:39.464 –> 00:19:41.359
– you will never need to. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

548
00:19:41.359 –> 00:19:43.039
– My first thing out of my mouth, Deborah,

549
00:19:43.039 –> 00:19:45.119
– when my wife brought this up was 100%.

550
00:19:45.119 –> 00:19:46.720
– Of course, you would want this. Let’s go

551
00:19:46.720 –> 00:19:48.480
– to get that set up. Because in the

552
00:19:48.480 –> 00:19:50.640
– end, let’s be real that one way or

553
00:19:50.640 –> 00:19:52.799
– another, this is going to, you know… And

554
00:19:52.799 –> 00:19:54.400
– to me, it’s way better for me to

555
00:19:54.400 –> 00:19:56.464
– say, yes. Absolutely. And

556
00:19:56.845 –> 00:19:58.525
– I know how hard I’m gonna recover. I

557
00:19:58.525 –> 00:20:01.325
– know where my intentions are. And so to

558
00:20:01.325 –> 00:20:01.825
– me,

559
00:20:02.125 –> 00:20:04.365
– I know what I’m focusing on. I’m focusing

560
00:20:04.365 –> 00:20:06.125
– on throwing everything I have at this, signing

561
00:20:06.125 –> 00:20:08.045
– up for every damn intensive I can and

562
00:20:08.045 –> 00:20:09.724
– changing this part of me so that we

563
00:20:09.724 –> 00:20:11.460
– won’t have this issue. And to me, guys,

564
00:20:11.600 –> 00:20:13.600
– the the more you grumble… Guys, that’s red

565
00:20:13.600 –> 00:20:15.440
– flag stuff. Like, when I hear that, I

566
00:20:15.440 –> 00:20:17.840
– am just like, this guy is… That’s not

567
00:20:17.840 –> 00:20:19.360
– a good look. It’s just not a good

568
00:20:19.360 –> 00:20:21.120
– look, and you’re giving her every reason to

569
00:20:21.120 –> 00:20:23.315
– wonder, hey. You take this all… You take

570
00:20:23.315 –> 00:20:25.315
– everything else seriously. All of a sudden, now

571
00:20:25.315 –> 00:20:26.994
– I’m asking for this. I find this a

572
00:20:26.994 –> 00:20:29.875
– very reasonable ask, and your body language is

573
00:20:29.875 –> 00:20:31.555
– isn’t… You know, I don’t know, guys. That’s

574
00:20:31.555 –> 00:20:32.835
– not a great look. So I… To me,

575
00:20:32.835 –> 00:20:34.515
– the right answer is 100%.

576
00:20:34.515 –> 00:20:36.769
– Let’s absolutely see. I’m smiling because I’m thinking

577
00:20:36.769 –> 00:20:38.710
– of some couples that I work with, and

578
00:20:39.250 –> 00:20:39.750
– often

579
00:20:40.369 –> 00:20:43.009
– the husband or the male partner will look

580
00:20:43.009 –> 00:20:44.369
– at me and I’ll look back and he’ll

581
00:20:44.369 –> 00:20:46.130
– be like, okay. I get it. I don’t

582
00:20:46.130 –> 00:20:47.890
– have to say anything. All I gotta do

583
00:20:47.890 –> 00:20:49.009
– is look at me. He goes, I get

584
00:20:49.009 –> 00:20:50.130
– it. I know what you’re doing. I know

585
00:20:50.130 –> 00:20:50.744
– what you’re doing.

586
00:20:51.305 –> 00:20:53.305
– Yeah. A 100%. A 100%. And and, again,

587
00:20:53.305 –> 00:20:54.585
– that’s just… You know, we won’t harp on

588
00:20:54.585 –> 00:20:56.265
– this topic. I just… Guys, this is a

589
00:20:56.265 –> 00:20:58.105
– very real thing. You must accept this. Say

590
00:20:58.105 –> 00:20:59.944
– yes to this. She deserves every ounce of

591
00:20:59.944 –> 00:21:02.365
– safety through this process. It’s in your benefit

592
00:21:02.664 –> 00:21:03.484
– that she feels

593
00:21:03.789 –> 00:21:05.630
– like she can leave and that you’re gonna

594
00:21:05.630 –> 00:21:07.630
– treat her and the family right. It’s in

595
00:21:07.630 –> 00:21:09.630
– your benefit. This is all stuff that’s just

596
00:21:09.630 –> 00:21:11.470
– right for the family. It just is. Any

597
00:21:11.470 –> 00:21:13.230
– sort of putting up a fight around this

598
00:21:13.230 –> 00:21:14.670
– is… It’s not a good look. And I

599
00:21:14.670 –> 00:21:16.430
– would also ask yourself if you’re putting up

600
00:21:16.430 –> 00:21:17.724
– a fight around it, I don’t know, it’s

601
00:21:17.724 –> 00:21:19.964
– a good it’s a good psychological exercise to

602
00:21:19.964 –> 00:21:22.605
– wonder what parts of you are doing that

603
00:21:22.605 –> 00:21:24.204
– and that’s a good… I’ll be honest, the

604
00:21:24.204 –> 00:21:26.524
– majority of the couples I work with and

605
00:21:26.524 –> 00:21:27.984
– the clients I work with

606
00:21:28.444 –> 00:21:28.944
– are

607
00:21:29.244 –> 00:21:31.884
– not opposed and do not put up a

608
00:21:31.884 –> 00:21:32.384
– great

609
00:21:32.819 –> 00:21:34.039
– struggle. I mean,

610
00:21:34.419 –> 00:21:36.500
– yes, there’s a little bit of indignant that

611
00:21:36.500 –> 00:21:37.880
– I tend to address.

612
00:21:38.419 –> 00:21:40.039
– That’s kind of to be expected.

613
00:21:40.339 –> 00:21:42.359
– Yeah. Correct. Once I explain it,

614
00:21:42.740 –> 00:21:46.419
– I mean, there’s a civility and there’s a

615
00:21:46.419 –> 00:21:47.169
– a humility

616
00:21:47.755 –> 00:21:51.294
– that comes with true recovery, and I’ve rarely

617
00:21:51.355 –> 00:21:54.154
– seen a great fight put up. Right. And

618
00:21:54.154 –> 00:21:56.075
– everybody listen to that because I will say,

619
00:21:56.075 –> 00:21:57.914
– Deborah, I’m in a bit of a different

620
00:21:57.914 –> 00:21:59.755
– position because in a recovery group, I would

621
00:21:59.755 –> 00:22:01.054
– definitely say I hear,

622
00:22:01.909 –> 00:22:03.190
– you know, I hear a little bit more

623
00:22:03.190 –> 00:22:04.789
– of the, you know, the partner is not

624
00:22:04.789 –> 00:22:06.149
– present. I’ll hear I’ll hear a little bit

625
00:22:06.149 –> 00:22:07.829
– more of the thoughts sometimes, but I will

626
00:22:07.829 –> 00:22:09.589
– tell you this. The guys of mine who

627
00:22:09.589 –> 00:22:11.589
– are in excellent recovery, who do save their

628
00:22:11.589 –> 00:22:13.509
– marriages, the answer out of their mouth was

629
00:22:13.509 –> 00:22:16.034
– 100% whatever you need. And again, it’s just

630
00:22:16.034 –> 00:22:18.034
– it’s just that olive branch of yes, of

631
00:22:18.034 –> 00:22:20.034
– course. Of course, you want that. Right? Alright.

632
00:22:20.034 –> 00:22:22.514
– Let’s get on to a really important topic,

633
00:22:22.514 –> 00:22:24.194
– which is the whole reason I brought you

634
00:22:24.194 –> 00:22:26.595
– on. Can you explain to the listeners? And

635
00:22:26.595 –> 00:22:28.355
– then remember, I have I have probably just

636
00:22:28.355 –> 00:22:30.240
– as many betrayed partners who listen to this

637
00:22:30.400 –> 00:22:31.460
– podcast as betrayers.

638
00:22:32.079 –> 00:22:34.720
– Can you speak to and just help everybody

639
00:22:34.720 –> 00:22:37.359
– understand even the betrayed partners listening to this

640
00:22:37.359 –> 00:22:38.640
– who might not have even put two and

641
00:22:38.640 –> 00:22:41.140
– two together? Can you articulate psychologically

642
00:22:42.319 –> 00:22:43.859
– what financial betrayal

643
00:22:44.335 –> 00:22:46.015
– does, what it does to the system, what

644
00:22:46.015 –> 00:22:47.695
– it does to the family system, what it

645
00:22:47.695 –> 00:22:49.695
– does to the marriage. Put this into words

646
00:22:49.695 –> 00:22:51.775
– because again, I think it’s the sexual betrayal

647
00:22:51.775 –> 00:22:53.615
– overshadows all of this and it’s almost like

648
00:22:53.615 –> 00:22:55.394
– this this just gets kind of ignored.

649
00:22:55.695 –> 00:22:57.855
– I will… I’ll start with what is financial

650
00:22:57.855 –> 00:23:00.849
– betrayal. What is financial infidelity? Let’s start there.

651
00:23:00.990 –> 00:23:03.650
– Sexual infidelity is kinda easy. We all implicitly

652
00:23:03.869 –> 00:23:05.630
– get what that is, but let’s talk about

653
00:23:05.630 –> 00:23:09.309
– the nuance of financial infidelity or betrayal. It’s

654
00:23:09.309 –> 00:23:11.650
– interchangeable. The terms are used interchangeably.

655
00:23:12.835 –> 00:23:14.375
– It’s anything from a secret

656
00:23:14.914 –> 00:23:15.414
– to

657
00:23:15.795 –> 00:23:17.654
– funds that are used or misappropriated.

658
00:23:18.674 –> 00:23:22.595
– It’s anything to using money in the act

659
00:23:22.595 –> 00:23:25.715
– of acting out or using money for other

660
00:23:25.715 –> 00:23:27.414
– compulsive addictive behaviors

661
00:23:28.169 –> 00:23:29.230
– without the knowledge

662
00:23:29.690 –> 00:23:30.509
– or the

663
00:23:31.129 –> 00:23:31.629
– explicit

664
00:23:32.089 –> 00:23:32.589
– agreement

665
00:23:33.210 –> 00:23:35.529
– for the use of that money. So it

666
00:23:35.529 –> 00:23:37.849
– could be anything from keeping secrets on a

667
00:23:37.849 –> 00:23:40.909
– very minimal nominal level basis,

668
00:23:41.484 –> 00:23:43.984
– or it could be very large expenditures

669
00:23:45.005 –> 00:23:45.825
– or misappropriation

670
00:23:46.444 –> 00:23:48.144
– or changing of beneficiaries.

671
00:23:48.524 –> 00:23:50.605
– I know that sounds extreme, but that is

672
00:23:50.605 –> 00:23:52.065
– not in the world by working.

673
00:23:52.444 –> 00:23:52.944
– Beneficiaries

674
00:23:53.325 –> 00:23:55.484
– on accounts that are changed, monies that are

675
00:23:55.484 –> 00:23:56.944
– diverted and or

676
00:23:57.329 –> 00:23:57.829
– traded.

677
00:23:58.929 –> 00:24:01.269
– Now gambled away, financial infidelity

678
00:24:01.809 –> 00:24:05.190
– now takes into the realm of existence gambling.

679
00:24:05.490 –> 00:24:08.849
– Mhmm. And while your listeners are not in

680
00:24:08.849 –> 00:24:10.690
– recovery, the majority of them I gather are

681
00:24:10.690 –> 00:24:12.805
– not in recovery for gambling that you may

682
00:24:12.805 –> 00:24:14.244
– wanna have me back to talk about that

683
00:24:14.724 –> 00:24:18.085
– Mhmm. Because financial infidelity and gambling has now

684
00:24:18.085 –> 00:24:20.565
– become a national health crisis. Yeah. I have

685
00:24:20.565 –> 00:24:22.805
– I have multiple friends who know that I

686
00:24:22.805 –> 00:24:24.325
– work in this space who have reached out

687
00:24:24.325 –> 00:24:25.765
– to me. You know, hey. I I I

688
00:24:25.765 –> 00:24:28.409
– don’t have sexual compulsivity, but I’m really in

689
00:24:28.409 –> 00:24:30.009
– the hole here and my And I will

690
00:24:30.009 –> 00:24:32.109
– tell you by studies and research,

691
00:24:32.649 –> 00:24:35.710
– when you have a sex addiction or compulsive

692
00:24:35.929 –> 00:24:39.230
– sexual behavior on board and that gets coupled

693
00:24:39.450 –> 00:24:39.950
– with

694
00:24:40.250 –> 00:24:41.389
– compulsive gambling,

695
00:24:42.205 –> 00:24:42.945
– the statistics

696
00:24:43.404 –> 00:24:45.025
– will say that the recidivism

697
00:24:46.125 –> 00:24:48.045
– is fissuring the roof. Yeah. Sure. It is

698
00:24:48.045 –> 00:24:51.725
– a very, very difficult recovery because there’s a

699
00:24:51.725 –> 00:24:53.644
– one two punch of it all. And and

700
00:24:53.644 –> 00:24:55.884
– and to say something small here too, just

701
00:24:55.884 –> 00:24:57.990
– just for the listeners, like, and Deborah, you

702
00:24:57.990 –> 00:25:00.009
– can check me on this. From my experience,

703
00:25:00.789 –> 00:25:02.789
– yes. Obviously, when we get up into the

704
00:25:02.789 –> 00:25:05.190
– hundreds of thousands and I think the record

705
00:25:05.190 –> 00:25:07.609
– client I have was 1,300,000

706
00:25:07.750 –> 00:25:10.250
– spent. Okay. Sure. We hear those big numbers.

707
00:25:10.744 –> 00:25:13.005
– Deborah, I… I’ve heard partners

708
00:25:13.785 –> 00:25:15.244
– just as floored,

709
00:25:15.545 –> 00:25:16.744
– just as floored. And these are and these

710
00:25:16.744 –> 00:25:19.085
– are financially well off people,

711
00:25:19.625 –> 00:25:22.265
– just as floored by numbers as small as

712
00:25:22.265 –> 00:25:23.225
– 4,005

713
00:25:23.225 –> 00:25:24.825
– thousand dollars. So I just wanna… I wanna

714
00:25:24.825 –> 00:25:26.250
– check on that. Like, I I don’t want

715
00:25:26.250 –> 00:25:28.570
– the listeners to think that we’re talking about

716
00:25:28.570 –> 00:25:32.410
– these massive transactions, financial betrayal, and taking the

717
00:25:32.410 –> 00:25:34.570
– family’s money and using it to to Well

718
00:25:34.730 –> 00:25:36.730
– step out on the family. Yeah. Would you

719
00:25:36.730 –> 00:25:38.890
– agree that you’ve seen people just as Let

720
00:25:38.890 –> 00:25:40.545
– me try on it. At all levels? Yeah.

721
00:25:40.545 –> 00:25:41.924
– Please. I wanna speak to that.

722
00:25:42.545 –> 00:25:43.045
– The

723
00:25:43.664 –> 00:25:45.585
– family or or the person who has an

724
00:25:45.585 –> 00:25:48.705
– income of 40,000 a year or 50,000 a

725
00:25:48.705 –> 00:25:51.904
– year who’s spending money on, be it financial

726
00:25:51.904 –> 00:25:52.404
– domination

727
00:25:52.705 –> 00:25:54.545
– or be it on any other kind of

728
00:25:54.545 –> 00:25:55.045
– compulsive

729
00:25:55.345 –> 00:25:55.845
– behavior

730
00:25:56.569 –> 00:25:59.529
– that spends upwards of 4 to $500

731
00:25:59.529 –> 00:26:00.190
– a month

732
00:26:00.809 –> 00:26:02.809
– over a period of time that is much

733
00:26:02.809 –> 00:26:03.710
– more injurious

734
00:26:04.490 –> 00:26:07.210
– than the millions, and the net numbers that

735
00:26:07.210 –> 00:26:09.130
– I work with are even higher than the

736
00:26:09.130 –> 00:26:10.349
– ones you’ve just listed.

737
00:26:10.904 –> 00:26:12.825
– Now it doesn’t matter. I don’t care how

738
00:26:12.825 –> 00:26:15.805
– many zeros you put behind betrayal. It’s relevant

739
00:26:15.945 –> 00:26:17.865
– to the situation. Yeah. That’s so good. That’s

740
00:26:17.865 –> 00:26:19.545
– such a good point. Yes. I want I

741
00:26:19.545 –> 00:26:21.305
– do…… Listeners to hear that. I do want

742
00:26:21.305 –> 00:26:22.984
– listeners to understand that. That is such a

743
00:26:22.984 –> 00:26:25.244
– good point. If the family is…

744
00:26:25.730 –> 00:26:28.210
– It’s it’s all relative. So whatever. Even if

745
00:26:28.210 –> 00:26:29.650
– even if you are well off, but you

746
00:26:29.650 –> 00:26:31.650
– spend a lot and you guys are still

747
00:26:31.650 –> 00:26:33.650
– tight at the end of every month, even

748
00:26:33.650 –> 00:26:35.410
– somebody who makes $600,000

749
00:26:35.410 –> 00:26:36.849
– a year who just likes to spend a

750
00:26:36.849 –> 00:26:39.109
– lot of money, even another 500

751
00:26:39.170 –> 00:26:39.750
– a month

752
00:26:40.184 –> 00:26:42.024
– could make a massive impact on the family

753
00:26:42.024 –> 00:26:44.585
– and leave them feeling like they are scarce

754
00:26:44.585 –> 00:26:45.704
– or without at the end of the month.

755
00:26:45.704 –> 00:26:47.065
– That’s a… That’s such a great… And the

756
00:26:47.065 –> 00:26:49.144
– question often comes… You know, therapists will say,

757
00:26:49.144 –> 00:26:50.424
– well, do you have the money to lose?

758
00:26:50.424 –> 00:26:52.825
– That’s not the question. Yeah. Well said. Question

759
00:26:52.825 –> 00:26:53.325
– is,

760
00:26:53.625 –> 00:26:54.125
– who’s

761
00:26:55.049 –> 00:26:55.549
– injured,

762
00:26:56.330 –> 00:26:57.630
– who is being deceived,

763
00:26:58.009 –> 00:26:59.549
– and whose betrayal

764
00:26:59.930 –> 00:27:00.990
– are you enacting

765
00:27:01.529 –> 00:27:03.630
– when you’re spending this money that

766
00:27:04.090 –> 00:27:06.730
– in most cases is agreed to go toward

767
00:27:06.730 –> 00:27:10.244
– expenses or mortgage or life expenses and and

768
00:27:10.244 –> 00:27:10.904
– or education.

769
00:27:11.365 –> 00:27:12.345
– So infidelity,

770
00:27:13.684 –> 00:27:16.345
– financial infidelity and betrayal is much more nuanced

771
00:27:16.565 –> 00:27:18.345
– as we’ve just been talking about.

772
00:27:18.964 –> 00:27:19.464
– Psychologically,

773
00:27:20.004 –> 00:27:20.904
– money represents

774
00:27:21.420 –> 00:27:23.740
– safety. Why? Because, you know, back when we

775
00:27:23.740 –> 00:27:26.220
– were all knuckle scratching on the savannah, what

776
00:27:26.220 –> 00:27:29.440
– was safety? Going out, getting a kill, eating,

777
00:27:29.660 –> 00:27:31.900
– that is, you know, the very basics of

778
00:27:31.900 –> 00:27:33.980
– can we go out and get food and

779
00:27:33.980 –> 00:27:36.320
– get shelter and get all this

780
00:27:36.734 –> 00:27:38.275
– for our comfort.

781
00:27:38.734 –> 00:27:40.115
– Well, safety today,

782
00:27:40.654 –> 00:27:43.214
– the currency in this society that we live

783
00:27:43.214 –> 00:27:44.515
– in is money.

784
00:27:45.454 –> 00:27:45.954
– Money

785
00:27:46.255 –> 00:27:47.855
– allows us to have a house to live

786
00:27:47.855 –> 00:27:49.775
– in, allows us to buy the clothes we

787
00:27:49.775 –> 00:27:51.789
– wanna buy or have any kind of expenditure

788
00:27:51.789 –> 00:27:53.869
– that we have to make our expenses and

789
00:27:53.869 –> 00:27:55.649
– or to live comfortably,

790
00:27:55.950 –> 00:27:59.329
– be it insurance, medical insurance, or anything else.

791
00:27:59.789 –> 00:28:01.490
– So money is safety.

792
00:28:01.950 –> 00:28:03.869
– Now money represents a lot of things. I

793
00:28:03.869 –> 00:28:06.075
– always say porn and money never disappoint.

794
00:28:06.714 –> 00:28:08.714
– Nobody nobody looks for porn they don’t wanna

795
00:28:08.714 –> 00:28:10.554
– access, and nobody spends things on money they

796
00:28:10.554 –> 00:28:11.994
– don’t wanna buy. Yeah. Correct. It just doesn’t

797
00:28:11.994 –> 00:28:12.894
– work that way,

798
00:28:13.274 –> 00:28:16.095
– but it’s safety. Mhmm. And so psychologically,

799
00:28:17.034 –> 00:28:19.855
– financial betrayal gets to the core

800
00:28:20.309 –> 00:28:23.909
– of our biggest, greatest need as a human

801
00:28:23.909 –> 00:28:24.409
– being.

802
00:28:24.710 –> 00:28:28.009
– Am I safe enough? Will I be okay?

803
00:28:28.710 –> 00:28:30.089
– And that is also

804
00:28:31.029 –> 00:28:31.849
– quite a

805
00:28:32.414 –> 00:28:33.235
– very subjective

806
00:28:33.695 –> 00:28:35.855
– expression of, will I be okay? Will I

807
00:28:35.855 –> 00:28:37.375
– be okay at this price point that I’m

808
00:28:37.375 –> 00:28:39.375
– used to? Will I be okay at this

809
00:28:39.375 –> 00:28:41.295
– price point that I’m used to? That has

810
00:28:41.295 –> 00:28:42.735
– to… And the and the and the the

811
00:28:42.735 –> 00:28:45.295
– betrayal that I, because I see this. Right?

812
00:28:45.295 –> 00:28:45.795
– So

813
00:28:46.190 –> 00:28:48.190
– for the few, I have had four divorces

814
00:28:48.190 –> 00:28:50.829
– in my program since inception, and I’ve seen

815
00:28:50.829 –> 00:28:53.089
– as the divorce is nearing final,

816
00:28:53.470 –> 00:28:56.190
– it’s almost like another betrayal of, like, this

817
00:28:56.190 –> 00:28:59.089
– is BS that I now have to live

818
00:28:59.414 –> 00:29:00.154
– this lifestyle

819
00:29:00.695 –> 00:29:03.255
– because of your actions. So it’s another gut

820
00:29:03.255 –> 00:29:05.015
– punch of, like, oh my gosh. Like, I

821
00:29:05.015 –> 00:29:06.695
– liked my other life, and now my life

822
00:29:06.695 –> 00:29:09.275
– looks completely different because you had to go

823
00:29:09.494 –> 00:29:11.015
– act this way. So I I think that

824
00:29:11.015 –> 00:29:12.615
– was a really great great point to bring

825
00:29:12.615 –> 00:29:14.640
– up is this is… This betrayal cuts at

826
00:29:14.720 –> 00:29:17.119
– so many different levels because it’s it’s not

827
00:29:17.119 –> 00:29:18.960
– just safety. Am I gonna have food on

828
00:29:18.960 –> 00:29:20.720
– the table? It’s do I have to move

829
00:29:20.720 –> 00:29:23.279
– and leave my community, all my friends, because

830
00:29:23.279 –> 00:29:25.539
– I could afford it here under those circumstances,

831
00:29:25.599 –> 00:29:27.200
– and now it just doesn’t make sense under

832
00:29:27.200 –> 00:29:28.259
– under different circumstances.

833
00:29:28.720 –> 00:29:30.474
– The kids have to get out of a

834
00:29:30.474 –> 00:29:31.994
– school that they were attending. I mean, there’s

835
00:29:31.994 –> 00:29:34.075
– there’s so many so many layers to this

836
00:29:34.075 –> 00:29:35.434
– that cuts so deep. I didn’t… I haven’t

837
00:29:35.434 –> 00:29:38.414
– even thought of it. Sure. The children that…

838
00:29:38.474 –> 00:29:40.794
– Of course, you know, they’ll get… Families will

839
00:29:40.794 –> 00:29:42.634
– say, don’t worry about your toys. We’ll buy

840
00:29:42.634 –> 00:29:43.294
– more toys.

841
00:29:43.759 –> 00:29:46.320
– But now they have toys here and they

842
00:29:46.320 –> 00:29:48.820
– have toys there, and you can’t replicate

843
00:29:49.360 –> 00:29:52.400
– what home feels like. Yeah. So it has

844
00:29:52.400 –> 00:29:53.220
– its tentacles

845
00:29:53.759 –> 00:29:55.840
– Yeah. Through the family and in ways that

846
00:29:55.840 –> 00:29:57.059
– aren’t always obvious.

847
00:29:57.515 –> 00:29:59.934
– In the most egregious of cases,

848
00:30:00.315 –> 00:30:01.295
– it’s not necessarily

849
00:30:01.674 –> 00:30:02.495
– money spent,

850
00:30:02.955 –> 00:30:05.615
– but accounts that are changed, beneficiaries

851
00:30:05.995 –> 00:30:08.075
– that are changed. And to your listeners, they

852
00:30:08.075 –> 00:30:10.174
– may say, well, that’s a pretty extreme case.

853
00:30:10.799 –> 00:30:13.200
– Unfortunately, it’s more common than I’d like to

854
00:30:13.200 –> 00:30:16.080
– admit that I hear that five twenty nine

855
00:30:16.080 –> 00:30:18.400
– accounts that are changed or that beneficiaries on

856
00:30:18.400 –> 00:30:20.160
– life insurance policies… I mean, you’ve had you’ve

857
00:30:20.160 –> 00:30:22.000
– had homes bought, haven’t you? I mean, I’ve

858
00:30:22.000 –> 00:30:24.585
– had homes bought for Affair Partners. I’m sure

859
00:30:24.585 –> 00:30:26.585
– you’ve heard of that before. Right? We’re we’re

860
00:30:26.745 –> 00:30:27.404
– But how

861
00:30:27.705 –> 00:30:28.205
– about

862
00:30:28.744 –> 00:30:29.244
– beneficiaries

863
00:30:29.785 –> 00:30:31.805
– change that the the beneficiary

864
00:30:32.265 –> 00:30:35.224
– didn’t know Yeah. Sure. Until they go to

865
00:30:35.224 –> 00:30:37.085
– find this out. Yeah. It’s true.

866
00:30:37.539 –> 00:30:39.140
– I mean, what what a betrayal what a

867
00:30:39.140 –> 00:30:40.900
– betrayal that is. Right? Because think about it.

868
00:30:40.900 –> 00:30:42.660
– And and and everybody listen to what Deborah’s

869
00:30:42.660 –> 00:30:44.900
– trying to say here. It’s like, the reason

870
00:30:44.900 –> 00:30:46.579
– I wanted Deborah to come on the show

871
00:30:46.579 –> 00:30:48.420
– was because I knew she would have these

872
00:30:48.420 –> 00:30:50.755
– examples. Think about what that would mean. Right?

873
00:30:50.755 –> 00:30:52.434
– To the acting out person, he’s just doing

874
00:30:52.434 –> 00:30:53.955
– it to feel all great about him. So,

875
00:30:53.955 –> 00:30:55.075
– oh, look at that. I’m taking care of

876
00:30:55.075 –> 00:30:57.414
– you. But think about what Deborah’s saying here.

877
00:30:57.875 –> 00:31:00.134
– You just said the legacy

878
00:31:01.075 –> 00:31:01.815
– of me.

879
00:31:02.160 –> 00:31:04.640
– I wanna give that legacy of me to

880
00:31:04.640 –> 00:31:06.960
– a different person. Oh, I mean, what the

881
00:31:06.960 –> 00:31:09.039
– what the… I don’t think, you know… Yeah.

882
00:31:09.039 –> 00:31:10.799
– It’s soul… It can be soul crushing. Oh,

883
00:31:10.799 –> 00:31:12.960
– I am sure. I am sure. I mean,

884
00:31:12.960 –> 00:31:14.880
– you would rather die and have this person

885
00:31:14.880 –> 00:31:16.934
– get your legacy than me. I mean, it

886
00:31:17.015 –> 00:31:18.615
– just makes my throat close thinking about what

887
00:31:18.615 –> 00:31:20.795
– that would feel like. Who suffers the most

888
00:31:20.934 –> 00:31:23.495
– are the children. And we… We’re assuming when

889
00:31:23.495 –> 00:31:25.255
– we say children, we’re we’re thinking five year

890
00:31:25.255 –> 00:31:26.615
– olds and six year olds, and, yes, they

891
00:31:26.615 –> 00:31:30.154
– they will suffer. But the teenagers, young adults

892
00:31:30.295 –> 00:31:32.549
– who are old enough to witness this

893
00:31:32.869 –> 00:31:35.610
– that are also being given the message

894
00:31:36.150 –> 00:31:39.590
– that dad says he cares or parent says

895
00:31:39.590 –> 00:31:40.330
– they care,

896
00:31:40.789 –> 00:31:43.289
– but in the end, they didn’t Yeah. Because

897
00:31:43.350 –> 00:31:46.009
– look what I got screwed over as well.

898
00:31:46.444 –> 00:31:48.924
– It’s really sad. It’s very… It is. So

899
00:31:48.924 –> 00:31:51.325
– speak… So real quick, speak to… I don’t…

900
00:31:51.325 –> 00:31:52.525
– We don’t need to take too much time

901
00:31:52.525 –> 00:31:53.984
– on this, but just for context,

902
00:31:54.525 –> 00:31:55.345
– the psychology

903
00:31:55.724 –> 00:31:56.944
– behind the

904
00:31:57.244 –> 00:31:57.744
– male

905
00:31:58.839 –> 00:32:01.819
– doing this so the guys listening can understand…

906
00:32:02.200 –> 00:32:03.960
– Because I I do think that when we’re

907
00:32:03.960 –> 00:32:06.679
– wining and dining and when we’re spending all

908
00:32:06.679 –> 00:32:08.279
– this money and, oh, yeah. Come out to

909
00:32:08.279 –> 00:32:10.279
– this fancy hotel. You know? I don’t think

910
00:32:10.279 –> 00:32:12.785
– we’re really thinking too much about what we’re

911
00:32:12.785 –> 00:32:14.965
– doing, but I wanna explain to the psychology

912
00:32:15.025 –> 00:32:17.205
– only because I think to the betrayed partner,

913
00:32:17.585 –> 00:32:20.244
– I think the betrayed partner sees very clearly

914
00:32:20.705 –> 00:32:22.565
– what he was doing even though the betrayer

915
00:32:22.785 –> 00:32:25.660
– was just kind of following this male script

916
00:32:25.660 –> 00:32:28.059
– nonsense to feel whatever he was trying to

917
00:32:28.059 –> 00:32:30.080
– feel. But can you talk about the objective

918
00:32:30.299 –> 00:32:32.460
– of the male? Why why is he doing

919
00:32:32.460 –> 00:32:34.539
– this with money? What’s the point of that

920
00:32:34.539 –> 00:32:35.039
– when

921
00:32:35.340 –> 00:32:37.019
– when you see them using this and from

922
00:32:37.019 –> 00:32:39.695
– an acting out standpoint? What’s this doing for

923
00:32:39.695 –> 00:32:40.595
– their pathology?

924
00:32:41.055 –> 00:32:43.214
– I wouldn’t claim to speak for everybody, but

925
00:32:43.214 –> 00:32:44.734
– I can tell you a through line is

926
00:32:44.734 –> 00:32:45.234
– this.

927
00:32:46.815 –> 00:32:47.795
– My net worth

928
00:32:48.494 –> 00:32:51.775
– is my self worth. Yeah. Sure. Sure. And

929
00:32:51.775 –> 00:32:53.714
– so people who are

930
00:32:54.529 –> 00:32:55.029
– rich

931
00:32:55.809 –> 00:32:56.309
– versus

932
00:32:56.690 –> 00:32:57.190
– wealthy,

933
00:32:57.970 –> 00:32:59.029
– not the same thing.

934
00:32:59.490 –> 00:33:00.149
– If I

935
00:33:00.529 –> 00:33:02.710
– can throw my money around or

936
00:33:03.089 –> 00:33:04.470
– pretend or show

937
00:33:04.769 –> 00:33:07.964
– peacock strut, as I call it, or impression

938
00:33:08.105 –> 00:33:10.284
– manage what others think of me.

939
00:33:10.904 –> 00:33:13.164
– I’m able to feed my own

940
00:33:13.464 –> 00:33:16.105
– ego wounds. The wound… I know narcissism, the

941
00:33:16.105 –> 00:33:18.585
– word is thrown around often, and, obviously, there

942
00:33:18.585 –> 00:33:20.184
– are a lot of behaviors and people who

943
00:33:20.184 –> 00:33:22.365
– earn that and they come by it honestly

944
00:33:22.490 –> 00:33:24.890
– by their behavior. But what we’re really talking

945
00:33:24.890 –> 00:33:26.349
– about is the

946
00:33:26.890 –> 00:33:30.250
– wounds to the developing ego that when we’re

947
00:33:30.250 –> 00:33:30.750
– young,

948
00:33:31.049 –> 00:33:32.809
– the world is about us. It has to

949
00:33:32.809 –> 00:33:34.590
– be, else we don’t get our needs met.

950
00:33:34.650 –> 00:33:36.984
– But when our needs are not met, and

951
00:33:36.984 –> 00:33:38.825
– I don’t mean financial, but I mean emotionally

952
00:33:38.825 –> 00:33:39.565
– and psychologically

953
00:33:39.865 –> 00:33:42.424
– and physical and all the other ways, emotional

954
00:33:42.424 –> 00:33:43.404
– as well, obviously,

955
00:33:43.704 –> 00:33:45.384
– that when our needs are not met, but

956
00:33:45.384 –> 00:33:47.484
– we have to attune to a parent’s needs,

957
00:33:47.784 –> 00:33:49.704
– our needs don’t go away. Mhmm. And when

958
00:33:49.704 –> 00:33:51.960
– we grow up, we don’t become someone who

959
00:33:51.960 –> 00:33:54.359
– was a different person. The younger version of

960
00:33:54.359 –> 00:33:56.380
– us didn’t run off and join the circus.

961
00:33:56.680 –> 00:33:58.059
– We’re that same

962
00:33:58.599 –> 00:34:02.359
– wounded individual all grown up. But now what

963
00:34:02.359 –> 00:34:04.940
– are the, if you will, the narcissistic

964
00:34:05.320 –> 00:34:05.820
– supply?

965
00:34:06.244 –> 00:34:06.904
– Well, it’s

966
00:34:07.365 –> 00:34:09.704
– money. It’s money. It’s trappings. It’s

967
00:34:10.085 –> 00:34:13.605
– material items. It’s anything that feeds what I

968
00:34:13.605 –> 00:34:16.085
– need to feel good about myself. But here’s

969
00:34:16.085 –> 00:34:16.744
– the intergenerational

970
00:34:17.285 –> 00:34:17.785
– piece.

971
00:34:18.819 –> 00:34:19.800
– The child

972
00:34:20.500 –> 00:34:21.559
– of that individual

973
00:34:22.420 –> 00:34:25.059
– is now in the position that the adult

974
00:34:25.059 –> 00:34:26.199
– was as a child,

975
00:34:26.500 –> 00:34:29.539
– not getting their needs met, who’s now having

976
00:34:29.539 –> 00:34:30.039
– to

977
00:34:30.434 –> 00:34:31.894
– cow to the parent,

978
00:34:32.275 –> 00:34:35.315
– and it’s repeating in the next generation. Yes.

979
00:34:35.315 –> 00:34:36.215
– So the message

980
00:34:36.594 –> 00:34:39.394
– to all family members are I am not

981
00:34:39.394 –> 00:34:41.414
– as important as your money

982
00:34:41.795 –> 00:34:43.875
– or what you do with your money or

983
00:34:43.875 –> 00:34:46.679
– what money means to you. So money becomes

984
00:34:46.679 –> 00:34:50.039
– the primary relationship. Yes. Yeah. And the affair.

985
00:34:50.039 –> 00:34:51.559
– Even even if not intended, you know, this

986
00:34:51.559 –> 00:34:52.859
– is something my wife

987
00:34:53.159 –> 00:34:54.679
– my wife and I have a very different

988
00:34:54.679 –> 00:34:56.920
– relationship with money, and she is constantly trying

989
00:34:56.920 –> 00:34:58.280
– to keep me in check. Hey. We need

990
00:34:58.280 –> 00:35:00.039
– you to be careful doing that. We don’t

991
00:35:00.039 –> 00:35:02.175
– wanna send the wrong, you know, hey. When

992
00:35:02.175 –> 00:35:04.414
– you speak like… And and I’m oblivious to

993
00:35:04.414 –> 00:35:05.695
– it. So she has to tell me. She

994
00:35:05.695 –> 00:35:08.015
– says, hey. When you say that, it makes

995
00:35:08.015 –> 00:35:10.675
– it sound like you need money

996
00:35:10.974 –> 00:35:12.994
– or else… I would ask you, why

997
00:35:13.535 –> 00:35:16.039
– are you not able to self check? A

998
00:35:16.039 –> 00:35:17.880
– couple different things. Great question. I love this

999
00:35:17.880 –> 00:35:19.579
– because I love being honest with my listeners.

1000
00:35:19.880 –> 00:35:22.300
– A couple different things. I think one is

1001
00:35:23.000 –> 00:35:23.980
– I have spent

1002
00:35:24.679 –> 00:35:25.179
– way

1003
00:35:25.559 –> 00:35:27.260
– too many years of my life

1004
00:35:27.974 –> 00:35:31.175
– building this narrative that when I have x,

1005
00:35:31.175 –> 00:35:33.095
– I will show everyone and then I will

1006
00:35:33.095 –> 00:35:35.015
– matter. And so I need it… My my…

1007
00:35:35.015 –> 00:35:36.394
– So many of my my pathologies

1008
00:35:36.775 –> 00:35:39.175
– need to be special, and and my definition

1009
00:35:39.175 –> 00:35:41.414
– of that in this world is wealthier than

1010
00:35:41.414 –> 00:35:41.914
– others

1011
00:35:42.320 –> 00:35:44.719
– that when I I… I’m so oblivious to

1012
00:35:44.719 –> 00:35:47.280
– anything that would take that from me because

1013
00:35:47.280 –> 00:35:48.880
– that is… That’s the only way I matter

1014
00:35:48.880 –> 00:35:50.659
– is how much more I have than

1015
00:35:50.960 –> 00:35:53.219
– other people. Then the other two would be

1016
00:35:53.280 –> 00:35:54.880
– I’m on the spectrum a bit, and so

1017
00:35:54.880 –> 00:35:56.694
– I do have a bit of kind of

1018
00:35:56.694 –> 00:35:57.275
– just obliviousness

1019
00:35:58.855 –> 00:36:00.454
– around social… You know, to me, it’s like,

1020
00:36:00.454 –> 00:36:03.014
– oh, this is my way of thinking. Yeah.

1021
00:36:03.014 –> 00:36:04.855
– And then I think that has also led

1022
00:36:04.855 –> 00:36:06.074
– to a lot of grandiosity

1023
00:36:06.534 –> 00:36:07.994
– and narcissistic traits

1024
00:36:08.375 –> 00:36:11.239
– that I developed through just being so self

1025
00:36:11.300 –> 00:36:13.639
– reliant, raised by two autistic parents.

1026
00:36:14.099 –> 00:36:15.619
– And I say all that to say I’ve

1027
00:36:15.619 –> 00:36:18.019
– become… You know, through that, I’ve become very

1028
00:36:18.019 –> 00:36:18.519
– into

1029
00:36:18.820 –> 00:36:21.300
– my way of living. And so I am

1030
00:36:21.300 –> 00:36:24.114
– very oblivious when other people have another way

1031
00:36:24.114 –> 00:36:27.074
– because in my little delusional world, Deborah, I’m

1032
00:36:27.074 –> 00:36:28.434
– so right, and this is so the way

1033
00:36:28.434 –> 00:36:30.775
– that it is. I’m not saying anything inappropriate

1034
00:36:30.835 –> 00:36:33.234
– because to me, it’s very appropriate. It’s not

1035
00:36:33.234 –> 00:36:35.255
– until my wife tells me that it’s inappropriate

1036
00:36:35.554 –> 00:36:37.440
– where I finally find out. Is that okay?

1037
00:36:37.440 –> 00:36:39.039
– And and and that and that is… And

1038
00:36:39.039 –> 00:36:39.619
– I really

1039
00:36:39.920 –> 00:36:42.400
– actually really respect and honor your saying that

1040
00:36:42.400 –> 00:36:43.380
– because I do

1041
00:36:43.679 –> 00:36:45.519
– believe there are many of the clients I

1042
00:36:45.519 –> 00:36:47.539
– work with and folks just like yourself

1043
00:36:47.920 –> 00:36:48.420
– who

1044
00:36:49.074 –> 00:36:50.675
– literally look at me and they go like,

1045
00:36:50.675 –> 00:36:52.594
– what, Deb? Like, what did I just say?

1046
00:36:52.594 –> 00:36:53.735
– What did I just do?

1047
00:36:54.275 –> 00:36:54.775
– And

1048
00:36:55.315 –> 00:36:56.675
– if I know them well enough and I

1049
00:36:56.675 –> 00:36:58.934
– have that trust equity, I’ll be like, okay.

1050
00:36:58.994 –> 00:37:00.695
– Let… Let’s go over this again.

1051
00:37:02.035 –> 00:37:02.535
– But

1052
00:37:03.530 –> 00:37:04.670
– I think, ultimately,

1053
00:37:06.730 –> 00:37:07.469
– the intent

1054
00:37:08.489 –> 00:37:09.550
– behind actions…

1055
00:37:10.329 –> 00:37:12.909
– I’m in recovery myself, twenty six plus years,

1056
00:37:13.210 –> 00:37:15.449
– and I’m aware that if I keep saying

1057
00:37:15.449 –> 00:37:16.969
– to someone, yeah. I didn’t mean it. I’m

1058
00:37:16.969 –> 00:37:18.675
– really sorry. I’m really sorry. Like, you know,

1059
00:37:18.675 –> 00:37:21.474
– that wears thin. Yeah. But if I change

1060
00:37:21.474 –> 00:37:24.135
– my behavior and I’m not just asking for

1061
00:37:24.595 –> 00:37:26.215
– forgiveness, but I actually

1062
00:37:26.675 –> 00:37:27.735
– change my behavior

1063
00:37:28.275 –> 00:37:31.315
– and I’m making an apology, not an amends,

1064
00:37:31.315 –> 00:37:32.215
– but an apology,

1065
00:37:32.949 –> 00:37:35.670
– and it’s coming from my heart because I’m

1066
00:37:35.670 –> 00:37:36.489
– really sincere,

1067
00:37:37.349 –> 00:37:40.070
– then I’m also letting it land in that

1068
00:37:40.070 –> 00:37:42.789
– I’m willing to make a different behavioral… I’m

1069
00:37:42.789 –> 00:37:45.369
– making a shift for a new behavioral cycle.

1070
00:37:46.230 –> 00:37:46.730
– Those

1071
00:37:47.414 –> 00:37:49.655
– that just repeat the behavior and go, yeah.

1072
00:37:49.655 –> 00:37:51.594
– I’m really, really sorry for anything I’ve done.

1073
00:37:51.974 –> 00:37:53.974
– That doesn’t land. And they know it, and

1074
00:37:53.974 –> 00:37:55.494
– the partner knows it. Right. Well, it’s

1075
00:37:56.375 –> 00:37:58.454
– And so there’s a very big difference. Yeah.

1076
00:37:58.454 –> 00:37:59.994
– Can you speak just quickly?

1077
00:38:00.599 –> 00:38:02.840
– What does that do to the partner? So

1078
00:38:02.840 –> 00:38:04.220
– being with someone

1079
00:38:05.000 –> 00:38:05.500
– who…

1080
00:38:05.800 –> 00:38:07.720
– Because I very much resonate with that that

1081
00:38:07.720 –> 00:38:09.180
– my self worth was

1082
00:38:09.720 –> 00:38:11.640
– money. In the beginning, it was just me

1083
00:38:11.640 –> 00:38:13.559
– accumulating it, and then that wasn’t good enough.

1084
00:38:13.559 –> 00:38:15.265
– I had to show people how much of

1085
00:38:15.265 –> 00:38:17.284
– it I had, and I needed them to

1086
00:38:17.744 –> 00:38:20.144
– like it. And I’m very vocal about that.

1087
00:38:20.144 –> 00:38:21.664
– I’m very familiar with that part of my

1088
00:38:21.664 –> 00:38:23.664
– pathology. But… So to me, I’m doing that

1089
00:38:23.664 –> 00:38:24.784
– whole thing. I… But I do want you

1090
00:38:24.784 –> 00:38:26.385
– to speak real quick. So what’s that do

1091
00:38:26.385 –> 00:38:28.644
– psychologically to the partners? The partner now

1092
00:38:28.945 –> 00:38:29.445
– discovered

1093
00:38:30.050 –> 00:38:32.210
– all of me doing this and a lot

1094
00:38:32.210 –> 00:38:33.510
– of it involving other women.

1095
00:38:33.809 –> 00:38:35.889
– What’s that do to her psychologically? I I

1096
00:38:35.889 –> 00:38:37.510
– mean, I’ve never been a betrayed

1097
00:38:37.889 –> 00:38:39.409
– female on the other end of that, and

1098
00:38:39.409 –> 00:38:40.929
– I can’t wrap my head around how… What

1099
00:38:40.929 –> 00:38:41.989
– that would feel like.

1100
00:38:42.369 –> 00:38:44.164
– Oh, well, the message… I’ll answer it in

1101
00:38:44.164 –> 00:38:46.085
– a minute, but I’m I’m… In thinking about

1102
00:38:46.085 –> 00:38:47.605
– one of the chapters in my… One of

1103
00:38:47.605 –> 00:38:49.925
– my first books for loving money exploring sexual

1104
00:38:49.925 –> 00:38:51.224
– financial betrayal relationship,

1105
00:38:51.764 –> 00:38:53.385
– one of the chapters is called morgasms

1106
00:38:54.085 –> 00:38:54.585
– because

1107
00:38:54.885 –> 00:38:56.965
– one’s not enough. Like, you know, if 10

1108
00:38:56.965 –> 00:38:59.269
– is good, then a 100 must be better.

1109
00:38:59.329 –> 00:39:01.590
– Right? I mean, there’s never… It’s never enough.

1110
00:39:01.809 –> 00:39:03.329
– And that came out of my time on

1111
00:39:03.329 –> 00:39:05.090
– Wall Street. You know, a win and a

1112
00:39:05.090 –> 00:39:07.910
– trade that is successful, it’s never good enough.

1113
00:39:08.610 –> 00:39:09.110
– When

1114
00:39:09.809 –> 00:39:11.030
– nothing is good enough,

1115
00:39:11.454 –> 00:39:14.894
– when more is needed, the partner naturally is

1116
00:39:14.894 –> 00:39:15.954
– going to be

1117
00:39:16.414 –> 00:39:18.974
– just dismissed. I’m just one of many things

1118
00:39:18.974 –> 00:39:20.894
– you need to rack up, to check the

1119
00:39:20.894 –> 00:39:23.454
– box, to put another score down on the

1120
00:39:23.454 –> 00:39:25.214
– board. My wife has said that to me.

1121
00:39:25.214 –> 00:39:27.730
– Yeah. Mhmm. I’m just one of many things

1122
00:39:27.730 –> 00:39:28.789
– as a conquest,

1123
00:39:29.730 –> 00:39:31.589
– as a get this done. Disposable

1124
00:39:31.889 –> 00:39:33.809
– was the word she said. Yep. Yeah. It’s

1125
00:39:33.809 –> 00:39:36.849
– supply. It’s like you’re important, but you’re no

1126
00:39:36.849 –> 00:39:39.190
– more or less important than the next conquest

1127
00:39:39.250 –> 00:39:42.304
– or the next achievement. Yeah. And therefore,

1128
00:39:42.684 –> 00:39:45.344
– it flattens the line that everyone,

1129
00:39:45.644 –> 00:39:47.025
– person, place, and thing

1130
00:39:47.644 –> 00:39:51.664
– becomes something for me to achieve, conquest, conquer,

1131
00:39:52.125 –> 00:39:52.625
– or

1132
00:39:52.925 –> 00:39:53.425
– check

1133
00:39:53.829 –> 00:39:56.250
– as having done. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s…

1134
00:39:56.710 –> 00:39:57.849
– It it really does…

1135
00:39:58.150 –> 00:40:00.389
– That tracks with… Minimum. And and I and

1136
00:40:00.389 –> 00:40:02.409
– I so appreciate you answering that because

1137
00:40:02.789 –> 00:40:06.010
– as all of us betrayers are trying to

1138
00:40:06.605 –> 00:40:09.484
– make amends, apologize, change, wrap our head around

1139
00:40:09.484 –> 00:40:11.405
– what we have done to these people. Thank

1140
00:40:11.405 –> 00:40:13.324
– you for saying that because I do… I

1141
00:40:13.324 –> 00:40:15.164
– I really, you know, that’s something my wife

1142
00:40:15.164 –> 00:40:17.085
– always, you know, I feel like one more.

1143
00:40:17.085 –> 00:40:20.045
– I feel disposable. I feel so unspecial. I

1144
00:40:20.045 –> 00:40:22.619
– feel like just one more little thing in

1145
00:40:22.619 –> 00:40:24.239
– your plethora of things.

1146
00:40:24.539 –> 00:40:26.219
– And, oh my gosh, he’s just so not

1147
00:40:26.219 –> 00:40:28.059
– that to me. But thank you for that

1148
00:40:28.059 –> 00:40:30.219
– explanation because that sure looks like what it

1149
00:40:30.219 –> 00:40:31.659
– was. And you know what I think? When

1150
00:40:31.659 –> 00:40:33.579
– I think of that part of me, we

1151
00:40:33.579 –> 00:40:34.940
– call him egos in my group. When I

1152
00:40:34.940 –> 00:40:37.335
– think about that part of me, all he

1153
00:40:37.335 –> 00:40:38.934
– cares about is more. I mean, that’s just

1154
00:40:38.934 –> 00:40:40.855
– what he does. He just gets more, but…

1155
00:40:40.855 –> 00:40:42.775
– And and he and he even discounts the

1156
00:40:42.775 –> 00:40:44.855
– victory. Once the victory is all but secured,

1157
00:40:44.855 –> 00:40:47.255
– he’s already discounted it, celebrated, and moved on

1158
00:40:47.255 –> 00:40:49.255
– to the next one even though there’s nine

1159
00:40:49.255 –> 00:40:51.094
– months until he crossed. So I appreciate you

1160
00:40:51.094 –> 00:40:51.994
– saying that because…

1161
00:40:52.369 –> 00:40:54.690
– And I use that part of me probably

1162
00:40:54.690 –> 00:40:55.429
– 90%

1163
00:40:55.570 –> 00:40:58.210
– of my life until discovery. It was just

1164
00:40:58.210 –> 00:41:00.530
– endless accumulation. And and in many ways, I’ve

1165
00:41:00.530 –> 00:41:02.369
– already talked about this in other episodes, we

1166
00:41:02.369 –> 00:41:03.969
– live in a culture that in many ways

1167
00:41:03.969 –> 00:41:05.650
– celebrates that. So I think that’s the challenge

1168
00:41:05.650 –> 00:41:06.929
– for a lot of these men is they’re

1169
00:41:06.929 –> 00:41:08.150
– they’re also getting validated

1170
00:41:08.664 –> 00:41:11.224
– for their Yeah. To play that game. Yes.

1171
00:41:11.224 –> 00:41:13.224
– And and and let me… I wanna actually

1172
00:41:13.224 –> 00:41:14.444
– speak to that. So

1173
00:41:14.824 –> 00:41:17.085
– you and the men you work with,

1174
00:41:17.784 –> 00:41:19.005
– clients I work with,

1175
00:41:19.545 –> 00:41:20.045
– some

1176
00:41:20.344 –> 00:41:21.885
– individuals are so

1177
00:41:22.264 –> 00:41:23.484
– incredibly brilliant.

1178
00:41:24.119 –> 00:41:25.500
– I mean, really brilliant,

1179
00:41:26.039 –> 00:41:27.099
– very accomplished,

1180
00:41:27.559 –> 00:41:28.059
– savvy,

1181
00:41:28.440 –> 00:41:29.260
– street smart,

1182
00:41:29.720 –> 00:41:33.579
– and therein lies… It cuts both ways. Mhmm.

1183
00:41:33.880 –> 00:41:36.280
– Yes. They have achieved a lot and, yes,

1184
00:41:36.280 –> 00:41:38.804
– they are perceiving things that nobody else sees

1185
00:41:38.804 –> 00:41:40.344
– and takes advantage of opportunities

1186
00:41:40.804 –> 00:41:42.585
– or creates the opportunities,

1187
00:41:43.125 –> 00:41:44.184
– and they’re rainmakers.

1188
00:41:44.965 –> 00:41:46.744
– The other side of that, though, is

1189
00:41:47.445 –> 00:41:49.304
– people cannot be bought,

1190
00:41:49.610 –> 00:41:50.590
– and you can’t

1191
00:41:50.969 –> 00:41:53.610
– buy your relationships, and you can’t rent them

1192
00:41:53.610 –> 00:41:56.909
– for a while because people cannot feel expendable,

1193
00:41:56.969 –> 00:41:58.829
– and you can’t make people expendable.

1194
00:41:59.289 –> 00:42:00.269
– And the success

1195
00:42:00.730 –> 00:42:02.590
– really does cloudy. It

1196
00:42:02.890 –> 00:42:04.269
– it it warps reality.

1197
00:42:05.005 –> 00:42:07.484
– So much like a gambler who is on

1198
00:42:07.484 –> 00:42:09.824
– a winning streak early on in their gambling

1199
00:42:10.045 –> 00:42:12.204
– behavior, that is, like, the worst thing that

1200
00:42:12.204 –> 00:42:14.605
– can happen. Now I I want success for

1201
00:42:14.605 –> 00:42:15.905
– all my clients, but

1202
00:42:16.284 –> 00:42:18.445
– it’s hard to tell someone when you are

1203
00:42:18.445 –> 00:42:20.530
– at the height of your career

1204
00:42:21.150 –> 00:42:22.989
– that you might be at the bottom of

1205
00:42:22.989 –> 00:42:25.889
– your addiction. Yeah. Well said. Yeah. Well said.

1206
00:42:26.110 –> 00:42:28.269
– Well… So my my wife has said to

1207
00:42:28.269 –> 00:42:28.769
– me,

1208
00:42:29.469 –> 00:42:31.090
– I would give up all

1209
00:42:31.630 –> 00:42:32.769
– of that stuff

1210
00:42:33.434 –> 00:42:35.275
– to have had this not happen. I would

1211
00:42:35.275 –> 00:42:37.594
– I would rather us just be poor and

1212
00:42:37.594 –> 00:42:39.835
– had you, you’d be the shift leader at

1213
00:42:39.835 –> 00:42:42.235
– a… I have had many betrayed arms who

1214
00:42:42.235 –> 00:42:44.795
– say that. Yep. Thank you…. Back to before

1215
00:42:44.795 –> 00:42:46.315
– you made the money. I wanna go back

1216
00:42:46.315 –> 00:42:48.315
– to before we had all of these assets

1217
00:42:48.315 –> 00:42:50.710
– and all of this stuff in our life.

1218
00:42:50.929 –> 00:42:51.429
– I

1219
00:42:51.889 –> 00:42:53.969
– yearn for those days. Yes. She she literally…

1220
00:42:53.969 –> 00:42:55.489
– Yeah. She she reminds me that all the

1221
00:42:55.489 –> 00:42:56.849
– time. Don’t you don’t you think for one

1222
00:42:56.849 –> 00:42:58.309
– second that I feel lucky

1223
00:42:58.849 –> 00:43:00.769
– for this beauty… This life that you’ve built?

1224
00:43:00.769 –> 00:43:02.929
– She’s like, if she… In the beginning, Deborah,

1225
00:43:02.929 –> 00:43:05.765
– she repulsed by it. She almost was like

1226
00:43:05.765 –> 00:43:07.845
– she hated. She just hated all of the

1227
00:43:07.845 –> 00:43:09.364
– nice things that we had because she was

1228
00:43:09.364 –> 00:43:12.005
– just like, get me away from this fake

1229
00:43:12.005 –> 00:43:13.684
– crap. I just it’s a reminder. Everything was

1230
00:43:13.684 –> 00:43:15.605
– a reminder of it. Because it’s representative of

1231
00:43:15.605 –> 00:43:18.005
– everything she didn’t have. And and and it

1232
00:43:18.005 –> 00:43:20.380
– is though, because that part of me does.

1233
00:43:20.380 –> 00:43:22.539
– It buys stuff like that. It builds houses

1234
00:43:22.539 –> 00:43:24.300
– like that. It’s a… So everything was just…

1235
00:43:24.300 –> 00:43:25.820
– She just didn’t wanna see any of it.

1236
00:43:25.820 –> 00:43:27.360
– She just… I thought that,

1237
00:43:27.739 –> 00:43:29.760
– you know, it’s always a reminder of,

1238
00:43:30.140 –> 00:43:31.980
– oh, I know why you wanted to get

1239
00:43:31.980 –> 00:43:33.244
– that for me. I know why you wanted

1240
00:43:33.244 –> 00:43:34.445
– to buy that bag for me. I know,

1241
00:43:34.445 –> 00:43:36.125
– you know, that that wasn’t for me. That

1242
00:43:36.125 –> 00:43:38.684
– was for you. Right? So as our time

1243
00:43:38.684 –> 00:43:41.005
– is unfortunately running up, but, man, you’re such

1244
00:43:41.005 –> 00:43:42.605
– a dynamic speaker. I’ll have you back for

1245
00:43:42.605 –> 00:43:44.204
– sure. As our time is running up, I

1246
00:43:44.204 –> 00:43:46.219
– always give you an opportunity. We talked so

1247
00:43:46.219 –> 00:43:48.219
– much. We spoke about the damage to the

1248
00:43:48.219 –> 00:43:49.900
– to the family and the children and the

1249
00:43:49.900 –> 00:43:52.480
– adult children. We talked about so many dynamics

1250
00:43:52.699 –> 00:43:54.460
– of the harm that this caused. We talked

1251
00:43:54.460 –> 00:43:57.339
– about protecting oneself and the nature of of

1252
00:43:57.339 –> 00:43:59.500
– that dynamic. Is there anything that we didn’t

1253
00:43:59.500 –> 00:44:01.625
– touch on that you would love to leave

1254
00:44:01.625 –> 00:44:03.704
– listeners with that I didn’t say today? As

1255
00:44:03.704 –> 00:44:05.465
– you’re you’re an author, you’re… I mean, you

1256
00:44:05.465 –> 00:44:07.545
– think about this a ton. I’m sure there’s

1257
00:44:07.545 –> 00:44:09.465
– something big that we left out. Is there

1258
00:44:09.465 –> 00:44:10.905
– anything that you want to say before we

1259
00:44:10.905 –> 00:44:12.045
– end this, podcast?

1260
00:44:12.699 –> 00:44:13.199
– Yeah.

1261
00:44:13.500 –> 00:44:14.960
– I ask my clients

1262
00:44:15.420 –> 00:44:17.820
– to think of their best self, and I

1263
00:44:17.820 –> 00:44:20.640
– don’t mean their most accomplished self. The sweetness

1264
00:44:21.179 –> 00:44:23.519
– of who they are. I I, for them,

1265
00:44:23.980 –> 00:44:25.440
– want them to be successful,

1266
00:44:26.234 –> 00:44:27.994
– but I want them to like who they

1267
00:44:27.994 –> 00:44:29.694
– are when they look in the mirror,

1268
00:44:29.994 –> 00:44:32.094
– and if they can do that every night

1269
00:44:32.394 –> 00:44:34.634
– and like the individual they are and know

1270
00:44:34.634 –> 00:44:36.714
– that the people who do business with them,

1271
00:44:36.714 –> 00:44:38.474
– not who they do business with, but who

1272
00:44:38.474 –> 00:44:40.654
– does business with them, who

1273
00:44:41.000 –> 00:44:42.940
– would speak about them at their funeral

1274
00:44:43.639 –> 00:44:44.940
– in glowing terms,

1275
00:44:45.400 –> 00:44:48.219
– then the legacy they’re leaving behind is priceless.

1276
00:44:48.599 –> 00:44:50.599
– Yes. Oh my gosh. I’m not even gonna

1277
00:44:50.599 –> 00:44:52.940
– comment. I usually say something cool to reciprocate,

1278
00:44:53.000 –> 00:44:54.675
– but I’m just gonna leave that there. But,

1279
00:44:54.675 –> 00:44:56.835
– of course, Deborah, for those, the betray partners

1280
00:44:56.835 –> 00:44:58.695
– listening and the betrayers listening,

1281
00:44:58.994 –> 00:45:00.594
– you’ve written books on this. Do you have

1282
00:45:00.594 –> 00:45:02.914
– any other resources? Just give the audience a

1283
00:45:02.914 –> 00:45:04.914
– place to go, especially because I know there’s

1284
00:45:04.914 –> 00:45:06.934
– gonna be people especially curious about

1285
00:45:07.235 –> 00:45:09.590
– the post nup. They’re gonna have tons of

1286
00:45:09.590 –> 00:45:11.269
– questions. I don’t know if you want their

1287
00:45:11.269 –> 00:45:13.269
– emails or contacts, but… No. Because I’m not

1288
00:45:13.269 –> 00:45:14.869
– an attorney and I don’t do finance. Yeah.

1289
00:45:14.869 –> 00:45:16.550
– So you’re gonna… But I’m sure they’re gonna

1290
00:45:16.550 –> 00:45:18.789
– want, yeah, just your guidance, referrals. Do do

1291
00:45:18.789 –> 00:45:20.230
– you have… Can they read your book? Talk

1292
00:45:20.230 –> 00:45:21.829
– about how they could get some guidance here.

1293
00:45:21.829 –> 00:45:23.465
– Because this is a scary… Finance is a

1294
00:45:23.465 –> 00:45:25.625
– very scary thing, especially for the betrayed partners

1295
00:45:25.625 –> 00:45:27.385
– as they’re trying to… Yeah. I I do

1296
00:45:27.385 –> 00:45:30.045
– respect and honor the financial and legal professionals

1297
00:45:30.105 –> 00:45:31.864
– who would follow through with that. I help

1298
00:45:31.864 –> 00:45:33.005
– people on the financial…

1299
00:45:33.465 –> 00:45:36.664
– Emotional drivers of financial behaviors. That’s how I

1300
00:45:36.664 –> 00:45:38.500
– work. But they can find me at my

1301
00:45:38.500 –> 00:45:41.859
– website, Deborah Caplan counseling dot com. I answer

1302
00:45:41.859 –> 00:45:43.940
– emails. You can email me directly on my

1303
00:45:43.940 –> 00:45:45.779
– website. I have a lot of videos and

1304
00:45:45.779 –> 00:45:46.279
– resources.

1305
00:45:46.659 –> 00:45:48.279
– I have three books that are out there.

1306
00:45:48.339 –> 00:45:50.144
– You know, I’m not really big into social

1307
00:45:50.144 –> 00:45:52.144
– media. I don’t have the time. I hate

1308
00:45:52.144 –> 00:45:54.785
– it, actually, quite frankly. It’s the… I I

1309
00:45:54.785 –> 00:45:57.425
– am in that regard the worst entrepreneur, but

1310
00:45:57.425 –> 00:45:59.265
– you know what? I’m doing okay even though.

1311
00:45:59.265 –> 00:46:01.025
– Yeah. You’ll be alright. Yeah. I think… Well,

1312
00:46:01.025 –> 00:46:02.545
– thank you so much, Deborah. This is great.

1313
00:46:02.545 –> 00:46:04.704
– I’ll, assure… I have no doubt that we’re

1314
00:46:04.704 –> 00:46:06.039
– gonna have you on a second time. I

1315
00:46:06.039 –> 00:46:07.639
– have two topics that I’m already gonna pick

1316
00:46:07.639 –> 00:46:08.839
– your brain on, so this is wonderful. Thank

1317
00:46:08.839 –> 00:46:10.940
– you. Look forward to it. Nice talking.

1318
00:46:12.599 –> 00:46:14.839
– Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1319
00:46:14.839 –> 00:46:16.599
– are a high achiever of the sex addiction

1320
00:46:16.599 –> 00:46:18.279
– and you’re looking for a recovery group full

1321
00:46:18.279 –> 00:46:21.385
– of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1322
00:46:21.385 –> 00:46:24.264
– We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1323
00:46:24.264 –> 00:46:25.484
– using four day retreats,

1324
00:46:25.864 –> 00:46:28.664
– weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1325
00:46:28.664 –> 00:46:30.824
– If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1326
00:46:30.824 –> 00:46:32.984
– save your marriage, go to our website, fill

1327
00:46:32.984 –> 00:46:33.724
– out our application.

1328
00:46:34.025 –> 00:46:36.500
– If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1329
00:46:36.500 –> 00:46:38.099
– along to a friend in recovery who would

1330
00:46:38.099 –> 00:46:40.019
– benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1331
00:46:40.019 –> 00:46:41.780
– get this information out to as many high

1332
00:46:41.780 –> 00:46:44.019
– achievers as possible, and I can’t do it

1333
00:46:44.019 –> 00:46:45.079
– without your help.