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– One of the reasons that couples grieving can

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– be really helpful in phase two is it

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– balances the emotional weight of the relationship.

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– It says, I’m not gonna require you carry

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– all the emotional weight of this. I will

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– actually carry some of it too. I’m not

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– carrying it for you. So a lot of

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– people think that couples grieving is, oh, I’m

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– gonna take my wife’s grief and I’ll hold

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– on to it. It’s more of, I’m gonna

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– engage my own grief.

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– I’m gonna engage my own emotions and I’m

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– gonna do that and I’m gonna do that

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– with you. And that’s gonna feel real vulnerable

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– for me because I’ve probably been someone who’s

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– stuffing my emotions my whole life.

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– You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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– for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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– This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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– recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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– high achiever. I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder

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– of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for

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– high achieving men struggling with sex and porn

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– addiction. For more information about joining our group

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– or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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– And now enjoy the rest of the episode.

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– Matthew and Joanna, what’s up? It’s so nice

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– to see you guys. I can’t remember. What

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– was that? Last month that we were, hanging

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– out? You know. Tell about. About. The summer

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– was a blur, so it’s I know. I

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– know. It’s always a crazy time. Well, it’s

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– nice to see you guys again, although in

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– person’s always much more fun than than virtual.

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– But so let’s dive right into it. The

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– reason I brought you guys back on the

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– show for a second time was I had

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– one of your

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– mentee

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– students who I saw an Instagram post of

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– hers and I was like, oh my gosh,

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– I love how this is worded. And right

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– when she got on the podcast, that’s the

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– first thing out of her mouth, she goes,

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– well, I have to say this is taken

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– from the Ramm Smith model. And so walk

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– us through the three phases. At first off,

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– what do you call the three phases?

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– Yeah. We just talk about it in terms

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– of the three phases of the couple’s healing

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– journey because we wanted yeah. We really wanted

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– to be able to give couples a clear

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– understanding of kind of what

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– is going to be kind of the the

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– experience

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– as you move through because the experience does

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– shift over time. It’s not the same And

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– the relational experience. Because I think there’s so

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– much out there about the individual journeys. Again,

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– like, we really focus on the relational aspect.

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– And so going, okay,

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– relational healing looks so different depending on where

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– you are relationally. And we found it so

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– helpful to actually describe it, name it, help

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– people understand

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– what does it look like so they can

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– figure out where in that journey are we.

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– Are we actually moving forward and progressing?

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– Maybe. Sometimes it feels like you’re going backwards,

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– backwards. And so it was really helpful for

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– them to be able to see that. Hope

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– because I do think it it can be

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– really, really tough in the beginning to,

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– a, not know where you are. How much

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– longer can I do this? Because I’ll tell

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– you what, I hear in my recovery groups

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– all the time, guys are just like, Guys,

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– I cannot

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– keep doing this. Right? And so And all

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– I tell them is, Listen, it’s not this

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– way forever. It’s not this way forever. It’s

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– not this way forever. So that’s what we’re

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– going to talk about today is it isn’t

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– that way forever, and it changes as we

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– go. So phase one, what do you call

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– it, and how do you summarize it for

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– the audience?

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– Yeah. So phase one is the recovery phase.

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– It’s the phase that probably most people are

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– familiar with because it’s that crisis phase. This

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– is usually

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– directly after discovery

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– or confession.

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– This is when the meat of the individual

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– work is being done. And so Yeah. Even

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– though this is a relational phase, because the

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– couple stay married during this time, and we

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– we We’re still relating. We’re still talking. Yeah.

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– Still parenting. They live together. Sorts of things

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– together.

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– But this recovery phase is a really individualized

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– experience because it is recovering

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– from the issues that have created the rupture

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– in the first place. And so from the

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– addict or the betraying spouse’s standpoint,

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– I’m having to deal with what I didn’t

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– deal with that started showing up in addiction,

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– that started showing up in all of these

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– maladaptive

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– ways. If I am not dealing with those

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– underlying issues, everything else gets harder. And so

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– this is usually when I’m maybe doing an

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– intensive.

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– I’m focusing on my kind of true recovery.

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– Maybe I’m in a 12 step group. That’s

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– the kind of focus for the addict. And

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– in the same way that betrayed spouse, right,

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– is going, okay. I’ve just been traumatized.

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– That’s big. Right? I have to figure out

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– what is even going on. They’re reorienting

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– themselves to the reality of their life, of

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– their story. Sometimes it includes things like a

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– full disclosure,

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– getting all the information of what has actually

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– happened,

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– and how is that impacting me, and how

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– am I going to start healing from that.

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– And so usually working with a professional

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– who understands betrayal trauma, right, starting to heal,

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– we call it safety and stabilization.

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– Right? How do I create safety for myself?

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– How do I start to feel more stabilized

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– individually and for the relationship, right? There has

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– to be some stability created in relationally

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– for us to even be able to move

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– on to any other phase. So that’s my

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– first and that is my first question because

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– my, I don’t know what you would call

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– it, criticism issue with phase one is that

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– I find the relational

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– stuff and the ownership and the empathy and

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– the feeling do you understand what you just

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– did to me? Do you understand everything that

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– I’m going like, I find that that dominates

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– a time where also, one of the biggest

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– things that the partner wants to know is,

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– am I safe? You need to get into

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– some plan to make sure that this does

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– not happen again. I cannot handle another relapse.

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– And so but a big issue I have

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– in the crisis phase, you guys, is that

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– so many of my clients, I would say

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– they’re in pretty

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– crummy recovery because so much of the energy

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– they’re getting their butts kicked from nonstop questioning,

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– accusations,

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– Sherlock ing, and finding can you guys speak

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– to that? Because that is a very real

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– issue. Because, you know, again, when we look

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– at alcoholism or usually, if somebody else is

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– struggling from a substance addiction, we give them

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– space. It’s upsetting and hurtful to the family.

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– We give this person space. Their recovery becomes

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– the sole focus. Hey. Let’s get sober first,

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– and then we’ll start

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– repairing rupture after.

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– That’s not how this thing plays out. Can

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– you guys speak to that difficult dynamic? Absolutely.

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– Yeah. You talk about, like, the key around

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– the first phase is structure.

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– You have to have specific structures. You have

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– to have particular boundaries in place Yeah. That

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– are going to support both individuals 100%. Healing.

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– Right? For both of them. And for the

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– good of the relationship. And so you’re exactly

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– right. There is going to be work we’re

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– gonna be doing later on that’s not actually

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– the work we’re gonna be doing right away.

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– But the crisis of the moment, the emotions

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– that flood both individuals

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– will cause oftentimes either spouse to kinda dive

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– into that relational work too soon. I’ve worked

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– with husbands who’ve thought, okay, my job right

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– now is to heal my wife. And I’m

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– like, you haven’t healed yourself. Like, you don’t

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– know yourself. You don’t know what you’re going

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– through. You have no chance of healing the

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– relationship.

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– Yeah. You mentioned empathy. We would not put

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– empathy in this phase at all because it’s

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– not capable of it until until you’re sober.

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– You can’t empathize with the reality of what

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– you caused. Well, I think the I mean,

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– on Matthew, you might empathize with this, right?

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– I mean, it’s and I say this delicately

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– because there are guys out there that sobriety

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– is

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– so hard for them to obtain. For the

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– vast majority of the guys in my groups,

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– I would say

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– they’re pretty dang sober right after. But I’m

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– always worried about that. They call it you

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– know, Patrick calls it the grief phase. You’re

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– so focused on how much you’ve ruined the

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– family, the pending divorce, the will I be

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– able to see my kids. Like, all this

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– stuff is panicking you, and so acting out

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– is usually not on your mind. But I

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– think the challenge with that, Matthew, for me

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– is, yeah, but we don’t do a lot

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– of this stuff. Right? We don’t cheat. We

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– don’t go out of our way to hide

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– these little secretive relationships. We don’t use sex

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– workers and pay for sex. The normal healthy

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– mind doesn’t do this. And so I get

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– that you’re not wanting to do it right

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– now, but at the same time, your wife

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– doesn’t believe that just because you got caught,

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– you’re gonna just magically stop. And so I

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– I to your point, while the guy might

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– feel in this phase, like, he’s ready to

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– just kind of heal the marriage,

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– I think your wife and the professionals

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– are like, yeah. It’s very rare that I

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– see a guy who when that grief wears

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– off, that all of a sudden the urges

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– and the desires don’t come back. Right? Yeah.

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– And it is a little bit of knowing

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– kind of realizing, oh, we’re doing something different

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– in this phase. And so, like, I think

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– a lot of times people have taken, let’s

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– say, full disclosure, for example. They think of

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– full disclosure as a kind of restorative action.

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– Like, hey. This is gonna be something we’re

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– gonna do to restore the relationship. That’s not

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– necessarily usually what it’s helpful for. Right. It’s

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– helpful to give the information,

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– both the individuals and the relationship needs, to

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– know what kind of restoration is gonna happen

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– later on. And so it’s more about that

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– self discovery

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– discovery of, you know, for the partner discovery

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– of what’s happened. Yeah. And so if we’re

244
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– trying to conflate all of these phases at

245
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– once, that’s where we usually see a lot

246
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– of the damage happening.

247
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– And sometimes you do have to kind of

248
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– set boundaries. We have to even with our

249
00:09:00.524 –> 00:09:02.284
– clients of, like, hey. This is what we’re

250
00:09:02.284 –> 00:09:04.284
– focusing on right now. I know you wanna

251
00:09:04.284 –> 00:09:06.544
– get to this. I know this is important.

252
00:09:07.164 –> 00:09:09.164
– It’s not that that’s not going to matter.

253
00:09:09.164 –> 00:09:10.524
– We just need to make sure we do

254
00:09:10.524 –> 00:09:12.365
– that work on a later date. Right sequence.

255
00:09:12.365 –> 00:09:15.090
– Right? Exactly. It’s almost like we’re trying to

256
00:09:15.549 –> 00:09:18.110
– stop the damage and maybe assess the damage.

257
00:09:18.110 –> 00:09:19.629
– Right? If you imagine the addiction is like

258
00:09:19.629 –> 00:09:21.710
– a tornado that’s come through and leveled your

259
00:09:21.710 –> 00:09:24.110
– house. Right? You’re not trying to rebuild the

260
00:09:24.110 –> 00:09:27.165
– house while the tornado is still there destroying

261
00:09:27.165 –> 00:09:28.605
– it. Right? But that’s what they’re trying to

262
00:09:28.605 –> 00:09:30.144
– do when they’re working on the relationship,

263
00:09:30.605 –> 00:09:33.004
– and they haven’t fully dealt with that addiction

264
00:09:33.004 –> 00:09:34.764
– and the root causes of it. Right? And

265
00:09:34.764 –> 00:09:37.085
– so Joanna speak to this because the ladies

266
00:09:37.085 –> 00:09:39.085
– listening to this episode, the ladies are all

267
00:09:39.245 –> 00:09:40.610
– how do you make sense of this, right?

268
00:09:40.610 –> 00:09:42.450
– Because in many ways, it is like you

269
00:09:42.450 –> 00:09:43.670
– do need to understand

270
00:09:44.210 –> 00:09:46.290
– how bad you hurt me. Like, I expect

271
00:09:46.290 –> 00:09:48.370
– that from a partner. And at the same

272
00:09:48.370 –> 00:09:50.450
– time, I think it’s always so frustrating to

273
00:09:50.450 –> 00:09:52.309
– me because the reason that the

274
00:09:52.654 –> 00:09:54.815
– trust cannot be built, the reason that the

275
00:09:54.815 –> 00:09:57.315
– foundation is there is there is this looming

276
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– when is he gonna do this again? When

277
00:10:00.254 –> 00:10:01.855
– do I know that I’m safe? So, Johanna,

278
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– can you speak to this as the betrayed

279
00:10:04.095 –> 00:10:04.595
– partner?

280
00:10:05.220 –> 00:10:06.820
– How do we make sure that we’re holding

281
00:10:06.820 –> 00:10:10.100
– enough room for him to do the recovery

282
00:10:10.100 –> 00:10:11.959
– work? Because like I said, these poor guys,

283
00:10:12.419 –> 00:10:14.339
– all they talk about in group is their

284
00:10:14.339 –> 00:10:16.899
– marriage. And I’m like, guys, shut up with

285
00:10:16.899 –> 00:10:18.980
– the marriage stuff. Go do that in your

286
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– marriage

287
00:10:19.875 –> 00:10:22.355
– therapy, your marriage counseling, your marriage mediation. Like,

288
00:10:22.355 –> 00:10:24.434
– there’s a place for that. Let’s keep this

289
00:10:24.434 –> 00:10:26.434
– about your recovery. But, Joanna, can you speak

290
00:10:26.434 –> 00:10:28.274
– to that? Because I do think there is

291
00:10:28.274 –> 00:10:30.035
– a level of intensity that makes it quite

292
00:10:30.035 –> 00:10:32.054
– hard to focus on when actually you can.

293
00:10:32.115 –> 00:10:34.035
– Absolutely. Right? And it’s it’s kind of the

294
00:10:34.035 –> 00:10:36.490
– perfect storm of making it difficult for both

295
00:10:36.490 –> 00:10:37.389
– people to heal.

296
00:10:37.690 –> 00:10:40.250
– Right? You have someone who’s created so much

297
00:10:40.250 –> 00:10:42.329
– destruction because they’re so unhealthy and they need

298
00:10:42.329 –> 00:10:44.329
– to go deal with the unhealthy, the pain

299
00:10:44.329 –> 00:10:46.250
– underneath that. But then you have a newly

300
00:10:46.250 –> 00:10:49.470
– injured traumatized person who is going to be

301
00:10:49.894 –> 00:10:51.975
– reacting like a traumatized person, and they’re still

302
00:10:51.975 –> 00:10:54.934
– living together and interacting together. And so going

303
00:10:55.095 –> 00:10:56.615
– that’s where we talk about the structure. When

304
00:10:56.615 –> 00:10:58.054
– we work with a couple, we have a

305
00:10:58.054 –> 00:11:00.054
– lot of structure with them. And a lot

306
00:11:00.054 –> 00:11:02.134
– of structure they’re supposed to take and use

307
00:11:02.134 –> 00:11:03.195
– in between sessions

308
00:11:03.649 –> 00:11:05.649
– because we know those things. Right? We’re like,

309
00:11:05.649 –> 00:11:08.370
– don’t have those conversations at midnight. Don’t ask

310
00:11:08.370 –> 00:11:10.290
– these questions. Right? We have a very structured

311
00:11:10.290 –> 00:11:11.509
– full disclosure process

312
00:11:11.889 –> 00:11:13.190
– that allows the partner

313
00:11:13.809 –> 00:11:14.549
– to understand,

314
00:11:14.850 –> 00:11:17.250
– here’s how I will get the information, when

315
00:11:17.250 –> 00:11:18.610
– I will get it, here’s what it will

316
00:11:18.610 –> 00:11:20.845
– look like, Here’s what I do in between

317
00:11:20.985 –> 00:11:23.384
– now and then as questions are coming up.

318
00:11:23.384 –> 00:11:25.225
– Here’s what I do with those questions. We

319
00:11:25.225 –> 00:11:27.464
– even have things called emergency disclosures. If there

320
00:11:27.464 –> 00:11:29.225
– are questions you have to have answered and

321
00:11:29.225 –> 00:11:31.384
– you cannot wait, we have a process for

322
00:11:31.384 –> 00:11:33.404
– that. Right? So it’s not this

323
00:11:33.820 –> 00:11:37.339
– very unstructured organic back and forth that just

324
00:11:37.339 –> 00:11:39.899
– creates more damage and more pain. And even

325
00:11:39.899 –> 00:11:42.620
– having things like structured check ins every day

326
00:11:42.620 –> 00:11:44.299
– for couples. So they have And that’s phase

327
00:11:44.299 –> 00:11:46.059
– one. Correct? Like, what you guys are saying

328
00:11:46.059 –> 00:11:47.644
– is because that’s what Matthew is saying is

329
00:11:47.644 –> 00:11:49.485
– this is this is phase one is a

330
00:11:49.485 –> 00:11:51.485
– lot of what Mhmm. Us helpers would call

331
00:11:51.485 –> 00:11:51.985
– psychoeducation.

332
00:11:52.365 –> 00:11:54.365
– Right? It’s like, listen. There’s a lot that

333
00:11:54.365 –> 00:11:56.284
– y’all need to wrap your head around in

334
00:11:56.284 –> 00:11:58.204
– this phase. And, Matthew, I want you to

335
00:11:58.204 –> 00:12:00.204
– speak to this. There’s a lot of part

336
00:12:00.284 –> 00:12:01.184
– betrayed partners,

337
00:12:01.490 –> 00:12:03.409
– and I’m always shocked at the percentage of

338
00:12:03.409 –> 00:12:04.309
– how high this

339
00:12:04.690 –> 00:12:07.269
– is, who do not wanna do couples therapy.

340
00:12:07.409 –> 00:12:09.970
– I get that. You usually won’t do couples

341
00:12:09.970 –> 00:12:11.809
– therapy in the traditional sense in that first

342
00:12:11.809 –> 00:12:14.084
– year, sometimes first year and a half. Matthew,

343
00:12:14.084 –> 00:12:16.565
– can you speak to your guys’ phase one

344
00:12:16.565 –> 00:12:18.725
– and speak to the point where it always

345
00:12:18.725 –> 00:12:20.745
– shocks me how many people are not getting

346
00:12:21.204 –> 00:12:24.644
– help as a couple in this crisis phase.

347
00:12:24.644 –> 00:12:26.725
– It blows my mind. If if I had

348
00:12:26.725 –> 00:12:29.129
– to choose a time to have help in

349
00:12:29.129 –> 00:12:31.049
– a third party, I would choose the first

350
00:12:31.049 –> 00:12:33.529
– phase. I would choose that phase overall. Can

351
00:12:33.529 –> 00:12:35.629
– you speak to y’all’s phase one

352
00:12:36.169 –> 00:12:36.909
– and how

353
00:12:37.289 –> 00:12:39.370
– comforting the partner that, guys, we are not

354
00:12:39.370 –> 00:12:41.210
– trying to have you guys come together. This

355
00:12:41.210 –> 00:12:43.210
– is not a time to heal. Matthew, can

356
00:12:43.210 –> 00:12:45.315
– you speak to the actual tactics? You don’t

357
00:12:45.315 –> 00:12:46.754
– need to go into the detail, but that’s

358
00:12:46.754 –> 00:12:48.995
– what this phase is all about. Yes? Totally.

359
00:12:48.995 –> 00:12:50.035
– Well, and I think part of it is,

360
00:12:50.035 –> 00:12:52.035
– like, we serve a lot as consultants in

361
00:12:52.035 –> 00:12:54.434
– phase one, right, where we’re basically saying, hey.

362
00:12:54.434 –> 00:12:55.440
– This is what

363
00:12:55.840 –> 00:12:58.659
– professionally we know will work. We’re not counseling

364
00:12:58.960 –> 00:13:01.360
– in phase one. We’re not getting into those

365
00:13:01.360 –> 00:13:02.580
– kind of hard conversations.

366
00:13:03.039 –> 00:13:04.259
– Like I said, that structure.

367
00:13:04.720 –> 00:13:06.320
– What we are doing, though, is we are

368
00:13:06.320 –> 00:13:07.620
– helping each individual

369
00:13:08.585 –> 00:13:10.904
– take responsibility for two things, their sense of

370
00:13:10.904 –> 00:13:13.144
– self and their sense of safety. Yeah. Because

371
00:13:13.144 –> 00:13:15.144
– those things are the things that are gonna

372
00:13:15.144 –> 00:13:17.545
– be key for phase two. And what most

373
00:13:17.545 –> 00:13:19.785
– people do is they wanna look externally for

374
00:13:19.785 –> 00:13:21.519
– those things. And this is both sides. Right?

375
00:13:21.519 –> 00:13:23.519
– I want the relationship or I want the

376
00:13:23.519 –> 00:13:25.839
– other person to tell me I’m okay, I’m

377
00:13:25.839 –> 00:13:26.659
– a good person,

378
00:13:27.039 –> 00:13:28.799
– and we’re gonna be alright. You’re not gonna

379
00:13:28.799 –> 00:13:30.240
– leave me. I mean, that’s what the guys

380
00:13:30.240 –> 00:13:32.000
– are the guys to be worried about. Right?

381
00:13:32.000 –> 00:13:34.495
– Exactly. And so part of phase one, the

382
00:13:34.495 –> 00:13:36.815
– goals for phase one is for each individual

383
00:13:36.815 –> 00:13:38.174
– to be able to do that, to be

384
00:13:38.174 –> 00:13:40.254
– able to build their own sense of self

385
00:13:40.254 –> 00:13:41.955
– and safety that’s not dependent

386
00:13:42.335 –> 00:13:43.934
– on their partner. And I think so important.

387
00:13:43.934 –> 00:13:45.875
– Right? One of the pieces you said was

388
00:13:45.934 –> 00:13:47.774
– there’s a lot of psychoeducation. We have found

389
00:13:47.774 –> 00:13:50.149
– it so important that they are getting the

390
00:13:50.149 –> 00:13:51.210
– same psychoeducation.

391
00:13:51.830 –> 00:13:53.990
– Yeah. Yeah. So many couples who are working

392
00:13:53.990 –> 00:13:55.769
– with their own individual professionals

393
00:13:56.149 –> 00:13:58.789
– are getting a different story. Said everybody I

394
00:13:58.789 –> 00:14:00.629
– want everybody to listen to that. I want

395
00:14:00.629 –> 00:14:02.710
– everybody to listen to that. The point is

396
00:14:03.414 –> 00:14:05.095
– so I’ll give you a little example of

397
00:14:05.095 –> 00:14:06.955
– this because this happens all the time. Right?

398
00:14:07.095 –> 00:14:10.054
– The betrayed partners is seeing a therapist and

399
00:14:10.054 –> 00:14:13.254
– individual as an individual. Okay? And she’ll talk

400
00:14:13.254 –> 00:14:14.554
– to her about

401
00:14:15.014 –> 00:14:16.875
– something that the betrayers

402
00:14:17.575 –> 00:14:21.339
– should be doing. Now she’ll phrase it differently

403
00:14:22.039 –> 00:14:24.919
– than his therapist. And so he is under

404
00:14:24.919 –> 00:14:27.240
– the impression that he is doing it. She

405
00:14:27.240 –> 00:14:29.419
– is under the impression that he is not.

406
00:14:29.959 –> 00:14:32.779
– And the therapist who’s seen the betrayed partner

407
00:14:32.884 –> 00:14:34.964
– did not mean to throw her husband under

408
00:14:34.964 –> 00:14:36.964
– the bus. It happens accidentally. So I just

409
00:14:37.044 –> 00:14:38.485
– I wanted everybody to hear that, like, the

410
00:14:38.485 –> 00:14:39.544
– beauty of having

411
00:14:40.245 –> 00:14:43.365
– someone like y’all’s program or someone who is

412
00:14:43.365 –> 00:14:46.029
– trained to be able to manage this crisis.

413
00:14:46.029 –> 00:14:48.110
– It’s it’s consulting. I think, Matthew, you said

414
00:14:48.110 –> 00:14:49.950
– it so well. Like, it’s a consultant. It’s

415
00:14:49.950 –> 00:14:50.610
– a mediator.

416
00:14:50.910 –> 00:14:53.070
– It’s a neutral third party to just say,

417
00:14:53.070 –> 00:14:55.950
– hey. Here’s how couples make it through this,

418
00:14:55.950 –> 00:14:57.629
– and I’m here to help. And wouldn’t you

419
00:14:57.629 –> 00:15:00.065
– guys say it’s also a place to ask

420
00:15:00.125 –> 00:15:02.205
– questions and maybe, if you’re lucky enough, be

421
00:15:02.205 –> 00:15:04.144
– around other couples who are dealing with it?

422
00:15:04.524 –> 00:15:07.085
– Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think being

423
00:15:07.085 –> 00:15:09.565
– able to there’s still a sense of empowerment

424
00:15:09.565 –> 00:15:11.085
– around it of what do we want this

425
00:15:11.085 –> 00:15:12.740
– to look like. Because there are some couples

426
00:15:12.740 –> 00:15:14.580
– who move through this process more quickly than

427
00:15:14.580 –> 00:15:16.820
– others. There’s couples who need more time. And

428
00:15:16.820 –> 00:15:18.980
– I think we’re really big about we know

429
00:15:18.980 –> 00:15:20.820
– the structures that are gonna give you the

430
00:15:20.820 –> 00:15:22.899
– chance for success, and then we wanna look

431
00:15:22.899 –> 00:15:25.620
– at your particular relational experience to figure out

432
00:15:25.620 –> 00:15:27.845
– what that’s going to mean. Mhmm. For some

433
00:15:27.845 –> 00:15:30.165
– people, they may need more time in phase

434
00:15:30.165 –> 00:15:32.804
– one because they’ve got some deep individual work

435
00:15:32.804 –> 00:15:35.365
– they need to do potentially on both sides.

436
00:15:35.365 –> 00:15:37.205
– And that could be both from within the

437
00:15:37.205 –> 00:15:37.705
– relationship,

438
00:15:38.085 –> 00:15:39.304
– that childhood history.

439
00:15:39.639 –> 00:15:41.480
– And so there’s not this just kinda one

440
00:15:41.480 –> 00:15:43.480
– easy, like, hey. Just do this, and it’s

441
00:15:43.480 –> 00:15:45.740
– gonna be fine. The key is just recognizing

442
00:15:45.799 –> 00:15:47.879
– that in this phase, we’re both trying to

443
00:15:47.879 –> 00:15:50.120
– get out as healthy as we can. Mhmm.

444
00:15:50.120 –> 00:15:52.199
– Because when we come into the next phase

445
00:15:52.519 –> 00:15:55.019
– Yeah. If we’re both in our woundedness,

446
00:15:55.535 –> 00:15:57.535
– that’s gonna destroy that next phase, and we’re

447
00:15:57.535 –> 00:16:00.495
– gonna keep spinning our wheels thinking, why aren’t

448
00:16:00.495 –> 00:16:02.654
– we making any progress? And we’re gonna find

449
00:16:02.654 –> 00:16:03.154
– ourselves

450
00:16:03.615 –> 00:16:05.774
– ping ponging back and forth between phase one

451
00:16:05.774 –> 00:16:07.615
– and phase two. Yeah. Now, Joanna, you’re gonna

452
00:16:07.615 –> 00:16:09.295
– get the worst question. But I do wanna

453
00:16:09.295 –> 00:16:10.434
– talk about this because

454
00:16:10.735 –> 00:16:11.839
– I get so many

455
00:16:12.459 –> 00:16:14.799
– guys who are in a delusion that they

456
00:16:14.860 –> 00:16:16.699
– are in phase two or should be in

457
00:16:16.699 –> 00:16:18.639
– phase two or should be in phase three

458
00:16:19.019 –> 00:16:20.779
– just because they are two and a half

459
00:16:20.779 –> 00:16:22.240
– years after discovery.

460
00:16:22.860 –> 00:16:26.195
– Yeah. Joanna, speak to the definition of phase

461
00:16:26.195 –> 00:16:28.215
– one because there are so many guys who

462
00:16:28.434 –> 00:16:30.375
– okay. Fine. They did their little disclosure,

463
00:16:30.754 –> 00:16:32.595
– kind of, and they did this, kind of,

464
00:16:32.595 –> 00:16:34.274
– and they did that. And they come in

465
00:16:34.274 –> 00:16:36.399
– and they are frustrated because they’re like, yeah.

466
00:16:36.399 –> 00:16:37.919
– We should be in phase two. And I

467
00:16:37.919 –> 00:16:38.899
– am like, brother,

468
00:16:39.200 –> 00:16:41.759
– you butchered phase one. I would highly recommend

469
00:16:41.759 –> 00:16:44.559
– just going back and redoing it because you

470
00:16:44.559 –> 00:16:46.959
– miss so many of the elements there. And

471
00:16:46.959 –> 00:16:48.580
– a lot of the times, it was because

472
00:16:49.054 –> 00:16:52.495
– they weren’t seeing trained therapists who deal with

473
00:16:52.495 –> 00:16:54.815
– this. And so that’s often what I see

474
00:16:54.815 –> 00:16:56.894
– is quite often why phase one gets so

475
00:16:56.894 –> 00:17:00.095
– butchered is unless you see couples who do

476
00:17:00.095 –> 00:17:02.355
– this all the time, it’s actually quite difficult

477
00:17:02.414 –> 00:17:04.335
– to do this well. So, Joanna, can you

478
00:17:04.335 –> 00:17:06.409
– speak to before we go into phase two,

479
00:17:06.549 –> 00:17:08.149
– I just want you to clarify for the

480
00:17:08.149 –> 00:17:11.029
– audience, when do we know we’ve done phase

481
00:17:11.029 –> 00:17:13.190
– well one enough to the point where we

482
00:17:13.190 –> 00:17:14.950
– do this? Because so many of the guys,

483
00:17:14.950 –> 00:17:17.130
– they are in a race. They want to

484
00:17:17.269 –> 00:17:19.085
– do this. They are miserable.

485
00:17:19.464 –> 00:17:21.464
– And let me tell you, the betrayed spouse

486
00:17:21.464 –> 00:17:23.565
– is miserable too. I don’t know a single

487
00:17:23.704 –> 00:17:26.984
– partner who’s like, I love phase one. This

488
00:17:26.984 –> 00:17:29.065
– is my dream to be in phase one.

489
00:17:29.065 –> 00:17:29.565
– Right?

490
00:17:29.944 –> 00:17:32.424
– Everybody hates that they’re muted. Well, let me

491
00:17:32.424 –> 00:17:34.559
– clarify what I have heard from all the

492
00:17:34.559 –> 00:17:36.419
– returning partners. I have heard

493
00:17:36.960 –> 00:17:39.220
– that they wanna get out of phase one

494
00:17:40.079 –> 00:17:41.619
– one thousand times

495
00:17:42.000 –> 00:17:44.079
– more than the guy does. So that’s one

496
00:17:44.079 –> 00:17:45.679
– thing just to keep in mind is, like,

497
00:17:45.679 –> 00:17:47.919
– guys, I know I know that the one

498
00:17:47.919 –> 00:17:50.035
– round trying to hold you back.

499
00:17:51.054 –> 00:17:52.974
– Trust me. They want out of this first

500
00:17:52.974 –> 00:17:54.815
– phase way more than you want out of

501
00:17:54.815 –> 00:17:56.095
– it, and that’s just something we always go

502
00:17:56.095 –> 00:17:57.775
– through on. Yeah. So so speak to this

503
00:17:57.775 –> 00:17:59.615
– though because It’s hard. Yeah. It’s hard. Is

504
00:17:59.615 –> 00:18:02.240
– that for that betrayed spouse, they’re the ones

505
00:18:02.240 –> 00:18:04.240
– that feel unsafe, right, because they’re the ones

506
00:18:04.240 –> 00:18:06.319
– that have been injured. So they literally their

507
00:18:06.319 –> 00:18:08.319
– body won’t let them move on to another

508
00:18:08.319 –> 00:18:10.879
– phase because they know it’s so unsafe to

509
00:18:10.879 –> 00:18:13.599
– move on until we’ve created safety. Right? And

510
00:18:13.599 –> 00:18:14.659
– so that’s really

511
00:18:15.105 –> 00:18:17.664
– the key is has safety be been created?

512
00:18:17.664 –> 00:18:18.724
– And, unfortunately,

513
00:18:19.184 –> 00:18:20.804
– this is not time dependent.

514
00:18:21.744 –> 00:18:23.345
– If it was like, yeah. Once you’ve been

515
00:18:23.345 –> 00:18:24.785
– in it for a year or two, then

516
00:18:24.785 –> 00:18:26.384
– you’re ready to move on. Right? It’s, you

517
00:18:26.384 –> 00:18:27.204
– know, the hardest

518
00:18:27.505 –> 00:18:29.480
– thing is when But Joanna haven’t acted out

519
00:18:29.480 –> 00:18:31.580
– so much faith. She’s sober. So we’re safe.

520
00:18:31.720 –> 00:18:33.720
– Oh, okay. So pick to that, please. Yeah.

521
00:18:33.720 –> 00:18:35.420
– What we would say is sobriety

522
00:18:35.720 –> 00:18:36.779
– comes before,

523
00:18:37.320 –> 00:18:40.440
– even in some ways before this recovery phase

524
00:18:40.440 –> 00:18:42.840
– because you’re not doing any relational stuff until

525
00:18:42.840 –> 00:18:44.299
– sobriety. So great.

526
00:18:44.625 –> 00:18:46.005
– Glad that that’s done.

527
00:18:46.384 –> 00:18:48.545
– Now we can start thinking about, okay, what

528
00:18:48.545 –> 00:18:49.924
– does the relational

529
00:18:50.384 –> 00:18:50.884
– recovery

530
00:18:51.184 –> 00:18:53.684
– phase actually look like? Not the individual.

531
00:18:54.065 –> 00:18:57.045
– And that means, have we faced the reality

532
00:18:57.105 –> 00:18:59.365
– of what has happened to us together?

533
00:18:59.849 –> 00:19:01.390
– And so many of those people

534
00:19:01.849 –> 00:19:03.529
– who are saying what you’re saying, right, who

535
00:19:03.529 –> 00:19:05.690
– are going like, what? Wait. I’m sober. I’ve

536
00:19:05.690 –> 00:19:07.049
– been sober for this long. Why are you

537
00:19:07.210 –> 00:19:07.710
– intensives.

538
00:19:08.490 –> 00:19:10.410
– I’m in this group and that group. We

539
00:19:10.410 –> 00:19:11.950
– should be in faith too. Right?

540
00:19:12.394 –> 00:19:15.034
– They have not actually seen the reality of

541
00:19:15.034 –> 00:19:17.115
– the damage that they have done. Once they

542
00:19:17.115 –> 00:19:19.595
– do yeah. And it’s perceived. Right? That’s the

543
00:19:19.595 –> 00:19:21.274
– thing that and that’s the thing a lot

544
00:19:21.274 –> 00:19:22.954
– of people are like, oh, well, I’ve done

545
00:19:22.954 –> 00:19:26.255
– this. And Yeah. Jim and Tyler and Kyle,

546
00:19:26.450 –> 00:19:28.069
– they’re all in phase two.

547
00:19:28.450 –> 00:19:31.089
– But my wife is trapped in phase one

548
00:19:31.089 –> 00:19:33.170
– and that’s where, again, you guys, it’s the

549
00:19:33.170 –> 00:19:33.670
– perception

550
00:19:34.049 –> 00:19:36.390
– it’s the partner’s perception and she is entitled

551
00:19:36.609 –> 00:19:38.450
– to her reality and her perception. And if

552
00:19:38.450 –> 00:19:40.674
– in her eyes, the pain has not been

553
00:19:40.674 –> 00:19:43.315
– felt, safety has not been achieved, you have

554
00:19:43.315 –> 00:19:45.715
– not taken the ownership that she feels comfortable

555
00:19:45.715 –> 00:19:48.115
– in. She has every right to stay in

556
00:19:48.115 –> 00:19:49.414
– that phase, does she not?

557
00:19:49.715 –> 00:19:51.869
– Yeah. And part of it is because once

558
00:19:51.950 –> 00:19:55.150
– that reality has been truly seen, right, that

559
00:19:55.150 –> 00:19:57.150
– awareness, and we talk about kind of the

560
00:19:57.150 –> 00:19:59.069
– foundation of the intimacy pyramid, which is what

561
00:19:59.069 –> 00:20:01.250
– we walk couples through is honesty. That awareness

562
00:20:01.309 –> 00:20:04.829
– is facing the reality, truly facing reality. We

563
00:20:04.829 –> 00:20:07.535
– love Dave Carter wrote a book on a

564
00:20:07.535 –> 00:20:09.615
– kind of a training for couples or for

565
00:20:09.615 –> 00:20:11.855
– leaders in this field. And he says, the

566
00:20:11.855 –> 00:20:14.674
– last stage of sobriety is actually

567
00:20:15.055 –> 00:20:15.555
– humility.

568
00:20:16.015 –> 00:20:18.434
– Mhmm. Once you reach this place of humility

569
00:20:18.734 –> 00:20:19.634
– and gratitude,

570
00:20:20.369 –> 00:20:22.690
– not trying to convince your partner of all

571
00:20:22.690 –> 00:20:23.910
– the things you’ve done,

572
00:20:24.369 –> 00:20:27.009
– that’s actually when you’re finally ready to move

573
00:20:27.009 –> 00:20:29.410
– on. When you are willing to say, yeah.

574
00:20:29.410 –> 00:20:30.849
– I don’t know if I’m ready to move

575
00:20:30.849 –> 00:20:32.724
– on because I see the depth of the

576
00:20:32.724 –> 00:20:34.325
– damage that I It’s a so I want

577
00:20:34.325 –> 00:20:37.144
– everybody listening to hear that. So literally, by

578
00:20:37.284 –> 00:20:37.784
– defending

579
00:20:38.404 –> 00:20:40.964
– how many intensives you’ve been to, by defending

580
00:20:40.964 –> 00:20:43.304
– how long you’ve been sober, you are actually

581
00:20:44.085 –> 00:20:44.585
– showing

582
00:20:45.160 –> 00:20:46.839
– that it’s not safe to be able to

583
00:20:46.839 –> 00:20:49.400
– move on. Right. Because you’re so I just

584
00:20:49.400 –> 00:20:52.119
– want everybody to understand that. It’s because that’s

585
00:20:52.119 –> 00:20:54.519
– my from what I understood when I did

586
00:20:54.519 –> 00:20:57.319
– my last episode about yours, when Tessa was

587
00:20:57.319 –> 00:20:59.684
– talking, that was really what I understood was

588
00:20:59.924 –> 00:21:01.865
– phase two’s really when

589
00:21:02.325 –> 00:21:04.005
– the betrayed part and, again, I want you

590
00:21:04.005 –> 00:21:05.285
– guys to correct this if I’m wrong. Mhmm.

591
00:21:05.285 –> 00:21:07.605
– The betrayed partner says, you know what? I’ve

592
00:21:07.605 –> 00:21:08.585
– got the information.

593
00:21:09.125 –> 00:21:10.904
– Mhmm. I’ve seen the plan.

594
00:21:11.605 –> 00:21:14.424
– I’ve seen the effort, the energy, the intention.

595
00:21:14.565 –> 00:21:16.099
– Okay. Yeah. I’m

596
00:21:16.559 –> 00:21:18.640
– ready to give this a shot. Right? And

597
00:21:18.640 –> 00:21:20.799
– then from the betrayer standpoint, from what what

598
00:21:20.799 –> 00:21:24.400
– I gathered is it’s really, again, ownership of

599
00:21:24.400 –> 00:21:26.559
– I know I could never fathom what this

600
00:21:26.559 –> 00:21:28.240
– would be like to be a female and

601
00:21:28.240 –> 00:21:29.380
– have this happen

602
00:21:29.684 –> 00:21:32.105
– to her from her husband. Like, I know

603
00:21:32.404 –> 00:21:33.684
– being a mom and having to put on

604
00:21:33.684 –> 00:21:36.565
– a smile downstairs when everything inside you just

605
00:21:36.565 –> 00:21:38.005
– wants to stay in bed. Right? It’s just

606
00:21:38.005 –> 00:21:40.825
– this I know I could never feel that.

607
00:21:41.125 –> 00:21:42.740
– Mhmm. But at the same time, it’s my

608
00:21:42.740 –> 00:21:44.659
– job as a husband to feel it right

609
00:21:44.659 –> 00:21:46.019
– now because of what I’ve done. Did you

610
00:21:46.019 –> 00:21:47.079
– guys say that summarizes

611
00:21:47.619 –> 00:21:50.019
– the beginning of phase two? It is. And

612
00:21:50.019 –> 00:21:52.500
– I think moving into a gratitude. And I

613
00:21:52.500 –> 00:21:55.299
– think because they’re what can happen with some

614
00:21:55.299 –> 00:21:57.105
– people is that they will be driven by

615
00:21:57.184 –> 00:21:57.684
– shame

616
00:21:58.065 –> 00:22:01.265
– and guilt rather than gratitude. And shame and

617
00:22:01.265 –> 00:22:03.765
– guilt will kinda get you started, but gratitude

618
00:22:03.904 –> 00:22:06.244
– will keep you doing the hard work longer.

619
00:22:06.304 –> 00:22:07.044
– And so

620
00:22:07.424 –> 00:22:09.184
– there is a sense of coming to a

621
00:22:09.184 –> 00:22:10.944
– place of thankfulness. And I think people who

622
00:22:10.944 –> 00:22:13.109
– have found true freedom from their addictions, you’ll

623
00:22:13.109 –> 00:22:15.269
– see this, where they’re like, man, my life

624
00:22:15.269 –> 00:22:18.309
– is so good. This life just free of

625
00:22:18.309 –> 00:22:21.190
– that mess Mhmm. I will take over and

626
00:22:21.190 –> 00:22:23.049
– over and over, even if it means

627
00:22:23.590 –> 00:22:25.670
– sitting with the people who’ve been hurt. Right?

628
00:22:25.670 –> 00:22:27.134
– The whole idea with

629
00:22:27.535 –> 00:22:29.695
– amends is as I don’t do amends as

630
00:22:29.695 –> 00:22:31.695
– this kind of, like, punishment. I do amends

631
00:22:31.695 –> 00:22:32.994
– because I’m just so thankful

632
00:22:33.695 –> 00:22:35.134
– that even this is what I get to

633
00:22:35.134 –> 00:22:37.134
– do. And so that’s usually what we’re seeing

634
00:22:37.134 –> 00:22:38.914
– is a sense of that kind of hardship

635
00:22:39.295 –> 00:22:42.859
– Mhmm. From this information that I now see

636
00:22:42.859 –> 00:22:44.859
– and the impact it’s had. It’s changed my

637
00:22:44.859 –> 00:22:47.180
– heart. It’s made me a person who’s really,

638
00:22:47.180 –> 00:22:50.140
– really thankful for what I have, and therefore,

639
00:22:50.140 –> 00:22:52.140
– I’m willing to do the hard work of

640
00:22:52.140 –> 00:22:54.345
– rebuilding what we’re gonna look like as a

641
00:22:54.505 –> 00:22:56.345
– couple with a person who’s been hurt. Because

642
00:22:56.345 –> 00:22:58.825
– that’s the challenge is Mhmm. I’m building a

643
00:22:58.825 –> 00:23:01.704
– relationship with someone I’ve hurt, which is different

644
00:23:01.704 –> 00:23:04.345
– from building a relationship with someone who’s excited

645
00:23:04.345 –> 00:23:05.804
– about the future of our relationship.

646
00:23:06.184 –> 00:23:07.704
– And I do I mean, believe me, there

647
00:23:07.704 –> 00:23:09.839
– was moments where I thought, oh, gosh. This

648
00:23:09.839 –> 00:23:11.519
– This can be tough. Mhmm. The first part

649
00:23:11.519 –> 00:23:13.679
– of our relationship wasn’t easy, but she kinda

650
00:23:13.679 –> 00:23:15.679
– liked me then. Right? Like, I don’t know

651
00:23:15.679 –> 00:23:17.140
– if she likes me still.

652
00:23:17.679 –> 00:23:19.759
– And that’s a challenge that I’m gonna have

653
00:23:19.759 –> 00:23:22.000
– to decide I’m up for. Well, and and

654
00:23:22.000 –> 00:23:24.159
– when you do that, if I’m kind of

655
00:23:24.159 –> 00:23:26.434
– miserable, if I’m Yes. If I feel like

656
00:23:26.434 –> 00:23:28.595
– everything is a burden in those things. Well,

657
00:23:28.595 –> 00:23:30.275
– in what you’re saying, Matthew, I I love

658
00:23:30.275 –> 00:23:31.875
– this. I think it’s a great segue into

659
00:23:31.875 –> 00:23:34.115
– phase two because to me, I think the

660
00:23:34.115 –> 00:23:36.535
– reason it’s so frustrating as helpers

661
00:23:37.234 –> 00:23:38.134
– when we see

662
00:23:38.859 –> 00:23:41.659
– resistance or proving, hey, I think the tough

663
00:23:41.659 –> 00:23:44.140
– part is it’s like, oh my gosh, can

664
00:23:44.140 –> 00:23:46.880
– you please just shelf all that nonsense? Because

665
00:23:46.940 –> 00:23:48.859
– what I think the beauty of in phase

666
00:23:48.859 –> 00:23:50.079
– two and three is

667
00:23:50.714 –> 00:23:52.714
– you get to showcase what marriage is all

668
00:23:52.714 –> 00:23:55.275
– about. There’s this delusion that marriage is up

669
00:23:55.275 –> 00:23:57.914
– and to the right graph. I think that’s

670
00:23:57.914 –> 00:23:59.835
– beautiful if you’re lucky enough to have such

671
00:23:59.835 –> 00:24:02.315
– a thing. I would say the beauty of

672
00:24:02.315 –> 00:24:05.710
– marriage is when one person can’t and the

673
00:24:05.710 –> 00:24:06.529
– other person

674
00:24:06.990 –> 00:24:07.490
– recognizes

675
00:24:08.430 –> 00:24:10.670
– this is what partners do. I know you

676
00:24:10.670 –> 00:24:12.830
– can’t right now, so I will. And I

677
00:24:12.830 –> 00:24:14.670
– think that’s the beauty of if you can

678
00:24:14.670 –> 00:24:16.269
– just make it you know, I always just

679
00:24:16.269 –> 00:24:17.730
– tell guys, just comply.

680
00:24:18.224 –> 00:24:20.224
– Listen. We’ve seen a lot of this. Just

681
00:24:20.224 –> 00:24:23.105
– do the dang stuff because I promise you,

682
00:24:23.105 –> 00:24:24.565
– once you get the opportunity,

683
00:24:24.865 –> 00:24:26.005
– which is phase two,

684
00:24:26.464 –> 00:24:28.865
– to be that guy, that’s really where I

685
00:24:28.865 –> 00:24:30.944
– think you start to feel like you can

686
00:24:30.944 –> 00:24:33.390
– earn your way back. And I do think

687
00:24:33.390 –> 00:24:35.230
– it is. So, Matthew, kick us off with

688
00:24:35.230 –> 00:24:37.390
– phase two. What’s it called? And describe it

689
00:24:37.390 –> 00:24:38.670
– if you can. And one thing I may

690
00:24:38.670 –> 00:24:40.750
– say before we are or as we shift

691
00:24:40.750 –> 00:24:41.250
– in

692
00:24:41.549 –> 00:24:42.849
– is being really careful

693
00:24:43.630 –> 00:24:46.450
– not to confuse the goal of being trustworthy

694
00:24:46.670 –> 00:24:48.714
– with the goal of being trusted. Well said.

695
00:24:48.714 –> 00:24:50.875
– And I think a lot of guys think

696
00:24:50.875 –> 00:24:53.274
– the goal is, okay, once my wife trusts

697
00:24:53.274 –> 00:24:53.934
– me again,

698
00:24:54.315 –> 00:24:56.554
– then I know I’m okay. Then I know

699
00:24:56.554 –> 00:24:57.534
– I’m good enough.

700
00:24:57.994 –> 00:25:00.315
– Then I know. Right? And so there’s the

701
00:25:00.315 –> 00:25:03.194
– manipulation. There’s the trying to push more quickly.

702
00:25:03.194 –> 00:25:05.089
– There’s the right My identity

703
00:25:05.390 –> 00:25:05.890
– depends

704
00:25:06.349 –> 00:25:08.190
– on this person trusting me. Well, and hiding

705
00:25:08.190 –> 00:25:10.829
– flips and hiding relapses, Joanna, because now I

706
00:25:10.829 –> 00:25:13.630
– have to I have to continue hiding because

707
00:25:13.630 –> 00:25:16.190
– the priority is to get trusted. I’ll just

708
00:25:16.190 –> 00:25:17.650
– say the shocker to the audience.

709
00:25:18.095 –> 00:25:18.994
– I do not

710
00:25:19.295 –> 00:25:20.994
– feel the need to be blindly

711
00:25:21.455 –> 00:25:23.535
– trusted ever again, and I also do not

712
00:25:23.535 –> 00:25:25.695
– feel the need to be forgiven for what

713
00:25:25.695 –> 00:25:27.535
– I have done for us to move forward

714
00:25:27.535 –> 00:25:29.055
– and build something beautiful. So I just wanna

715
00:25:29.055 –> 00:25:30.734
– make sure every guy hears that. And I

716
00:25:30.734 –> 00:25:32.095
– know for a lot of guys, Joanna, they

717
00:25:32.095 –> 00:25:33.779
– make some cringe. A lot of guys hear

718
00:25:33.779 –> 00:25:36.179
– like, I’ll never be blindly trusted again. Well,

719
00:25:36.179 –> 00:25:37.460
– I wanna divorce. I don’t wanna be in

720
00:25:37.460 –> 00:25:40.200
– that. Well, I would consider you to reconsider

721
00:25:40.339 –> 00:25:42.419
– that because I think when you introduce to

722
00:25:42.419 –> 00:25:44.339
– the brain, it’s like people get in a

723
00:25:44.339 –> 00:25:46.325
– car accident. I’ve never been in one, so

724
00:25:46.325 –> 00:25:47.605
– I can’t speak to this, but from what

725
00:25:47.605 –> 00:25:49.045
– I understand, people who have been in a

726
00:25:49.045 –> 00:25:51.525
– pretty gnarly one, you don’t forget. And so

727
00:25:51.525 –> 00:25:53.205
– when you’re coming out and you’re turning right,

728
00:25:53.205 –> 00:25:55.545
– and it’s a 55 mile an hour road,

729
00:25:55.684 –> 00:25:58.710
– there’s this reminder of what happened to you

730
00:25:58.710 –> 00:26:00.869
– that one time. And I think it’s naive

731
00:26:00.869 –> 00:26:02.329
– and and I think it’s very

732
00:26:02.789 –> 00:26:04.170
– inconsiderate and insensitive

733
00:26:04.549 –> 00:26:06.950
– to ask the person and never worry about

734
00:26:06.950 –> 00:26:09.269
– something coming in from the left. That’s why

735
00:26:09.269 –> 00:26:10.650
– I don’t demand blind.

736
00:26:11.095 –> 00:26:12.455
– Trust. What I you know? Right? I I

737
00:26:12.455 –> 00:26:14.695
– don’t ever expect that again. When you pull

738
00:26:14.695 –> 00:26:17.015
– it my partner is is that you never

739
00:26:17.015 –> 00:26:19.015
– should have given that blind trust. You didn’t

740
00:26:19.015 –> 00:26:20.695
– know better. You didn’t know how to build

741
00:26:20.695 –> 00:26:22.535
– a healthy relationship like all of us. That

742
00:26:22.615 –> 00:26:23.355
– that’s okay.

743
00:26:23.950 –> 00:26:26.430
– And moving forward, you now know that healthy

744
00:26:26.430 –> 00:26:26.930
– relationships

745
00:26:27.549 –> 00:26:28.930
– are built on

746
00:26:29.230 –> 00:26:30.529
– demonstrating trustworthiness

747
00:26:31.630 –> 00:26:34.110
– for each other and building trust on a

748
00:26:34.110 –> 00:26:36.769
– foundation of honesty, safety, and trustworthiness.

749
00:26:37.285 –> 00:26:38.825
– Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that ultimately

750
00:26:39.204 –> 00:26:40.505
– is a healthy relationship.

751
00:26:41.204 –> 00:26:42.805
– I think another way to rephrase what you

752
00:26:42.805 –> 00:26:44.805
– just said was to assume no one will

753
00:26:44.805 –> 00:26:46.964
– make a mistake. That’s kind of what you

754
00:26:46.964 –> 00:26:50.005
– were saying in that blind world was, Oh,

755
00:26:50.005 –> 00:26:52.085
– I trust him because he’s perfect. And that’s

756
00:26:52.085 –> 00:26:54.240
– just a really ridiculous thing to say because

757
00:26:54.299 –> 00:26:56.059
– he’s not perfect and no one and no

758
00:26:56.059 –> 00:26:57.980
– one I appreciate you bringing that up because,

759
00:26:57.980 –> 00:27:00.619
– again, when earning back trust, that’s kind of

760
00:27:00.619 –> 00:27:02.940
– on a whole different graph, and it’s important

761
00:27:02.940 –> 00:27:04.779
– thing to do. I would say when we’re

762
00:27:04.779 –> 00:27:06.640
– focusing on repairing the relationship,

763
00:27:07.355 –> 00:27:09.434
– it’s not the hallmark of going from phase

764
00:27:09.434 –> 00:27:11.195
– one to phase two. It’s, okay. Hey. I’m

765
00:27:11.195 –> 00:27:13.515
– trusted now. That’s certainly not something that we’re

766
00:27:13.515 –> 00:27:15.674
– talking about. I would say phase two and

767
00:27:15.674 –> 00:27:18.394
– phase three are actually what sets you up

768
00:27:18.394 –> 00:27:19.615
– to start. Exactly.

769
00:27:19.914 –> 00:27:22.000
– Matthew, take it away with phase two. Yeah.

770
00:27:22.000 –> 00:27:24.559
– Phase two is the restoration phase. It’s about

771
00:27:24.559 –> 00:27:26.880
– putting back what was damaged. So kind of

772
00:27:26.880 –> 00:27:29.859
– phase one is looking at acknowledging the damage,

773
00:27:30.160 –> 00:27:33.380
– healing individually so the work of relational restoration

774
00:27:33.599 –> 00:27:34.980
– can take place. Because truly,

775
00:27:35.315 –> 00:27:37.394
– there’s three entities in any marriage. You have

776
00:27:37.394 –> 00:27:38.214
– each individual

777
00:27:38.835 –> 00:27:41.075
– and you have the relationship itself. It is

778
00:27:41.075 –> 00:27:44.355
– its own thing. It lives. It breathes, but

779
00:27:44.355 –> 00:27:46.674
– it only does so by the care of

780
00:27:46.674 –> 00:27:49.480
– each individual. So when we’re both putting in

781
00:27:49.559 –> 00:27:50.839
– if you think about it like a bank

782
00:27:50.839 –> 00:27:54.059
– account, if we’re both making deposits each week,

783
00:27:54.200 –> 00:27:57.079
– our relationship is strong. It grows. The asset

784
00:27:57.079 –> 00:27:59.240
– grows. But if one of us stops putting

785
00:27:59.240 –> 00:28:01.319
– money in, if one of us pretends to

786
00:28:01.319 –> 00:28:02.839
– put money in and says, like Actually, it’s

787
00:28:02.839 –> 00:28:04.424
– what’s wrong. You know, but I’m taking money

788
00:28:04.505 –> 00:28:06.345
– out. Right? All of a sudden, we go

789
00:28:06.345 –> 00:28:08.065
– to that account. We write that we don’t

790
00:28:08.105 –> 00:28:09.705
– people don’t write checks anymore. Right? But we

791
00:28:09.705 –> 00:28:11.384
– run that credit card, and it’s like, oh,

792
00:28:11.384 –> 00:28:13.085
– we don’t have the money to cover this.

793
00:28:13.465 –> 00:28:16.025
– And so that restoration phase is putting that

794
00:28:16.025 –> 00:28:18.180
– asset back together. It’s going, what did the

795
00:28:18.180 –> 00:28:21.880
– relationship lose Mhmm. Because of what took place?

796
00:28:22.019 –> 00:28:24.099
– What were the things that were lost between

797
00:28:24.099 –> 00:28:24.599
– us?

798
00:28:24.980 –> 00:28:27.460
– And so a lot of people think that

799
00:28:27.460 –> 00:28:29.779
– recovery is, oh, I’m going to heal the

800
00:28:29.779 –> 00:28:32.234
– person who was hurt. Mhmm. It’s more about,

801
00:28:32.315 –> 00:28:35.355
– I’m going to take a responsibility in healing

802
00:28:35.355 –> 00:28:37.295
– the damage I did to the relationship.

803
00:28:37.674 –> 00:28:40.234
– Yeah. And the person who was injured by

804
00:28:40.234 –> 00:28:40.734
– that,

805
00:28:41.194 –> 00:28:43.835
– they will experience some healing as well from

806
00:28:43.835 –> 00:28:46.630
– that work. And so I’m focusing on the

807
00:28:46.630 –> 00:28:48.869
– relational components, the things that I can do

808
00:28:48.869 –> 00:28:50.170
– for the care of the relationship.

809
00:28:50.630 –> 00:28:52.950
– And that maybe even include things I didn’t

810
00:28:52.950 –> 00:28:54.490
– do before. So maybe

811
00:28:54.869 –> 00:28:57.269
– my partner who was betrayed, maybe they were

812
00:28:57.269 –> 00:29:00.444
– carrying a certain relational load that I wasn’t

813
00:29:00.444 –> 00:29:02.684
– because I was in my addiction. I wasn’t

814
00:29:02.684 –> 00:29:03.744
– emotionally present.

815
00:29:04.125 –> 00:29:05.845
– I left that to them. And so Mhmm.

816
00:29:05.964 –> 00:29:08.444
– It’s going to look like me becoming a

817
00:29:08.444 –> 00:29:11.325
– greater kind of shared leader Yeah. In the

818
00:29:11.325 –> 00:29:13.325
– relationship. That’s really what phase two is. So

819
00:29:13.325 –> 00:29:16.039
– the mutual vulnerability, that’s where you see empathy.

820
00:29:16.100 –> 00:29:18.420
– You see couples grieving together. Right? A lot

821
00:29:18.420 –> 00:29:21.160
– of that is happening in this restoration phase.

822
00:29:21.380 –> 00:29:23.880
– So I have two comments or questions rather.

823
00:29:24.340 –> 00:29:27.000
– Would you guys agree with me in

824
00:29:27.299 –> 00:29:30.759
– that this phase gets skipped or done

825
00:29:31.434 –> 00:29:33.375
– very poorly and

826
00:29:33.674 –> 00:29:35.295
– circumstantially here and there.

827
00:29:35.755 –> 00:29:37.055
– I don’t know how much

828
00:29:37.434 –> 00:29:41.055
– the repair work really gets honored and focused

829
00:29:41.115 –> 00:29:42.955
– on. And then I guess part two to

830
00:29:42.955 –> 00:29:44.414
– that same question is,

831
00:29:45.200 –> 00:29:46.019
– do you guys

832
00:29:46.400 –> 00:29:47.700
– really try to

833
00:29:48.480 –> 00:29:49.859
– pivot? Because I find

834
00:29:50.400 –> 00:29:53.279
– phase one can very easily get trapped in

835
00:29:53.279 –> 00:29:53.779
– of

836
00:29:54.240 –> 00:29:57.440
– check-in, prove this, show me that. It’s just

837
00:29:57.440 –> 00:29:59.299
– so much of it is just spying,

838
00:29:59.724 –> 00:30:00.224
– Sherlock

839
00:30:00.684 –> 00:30:02.845
– ing. It’s a very yucky thing. I think

840
00:30:02.845 –> 00:30:04.605
– that burns out a lot of the couples

841
00:30:04.605 –> 00:30:06.384
– that I see because it’s just no fun.

842
00:30:06.444 –> 00:30:07.565
– My question is kind of a two part

843
00:30:07.565 –> 00:30:09.164
– question is, one, do you guys agree with

844
00:30:09.164 –> 00:30:11.904
– me that phase two never really gets

845
00:30:12.284 –> 00:30:14.365
– done well? I should say never, but I

846
00:30:14.365 –> 00:30:17.250
– I find it poorly done quite often. And

847
00:30:17.250 –> 00:30:18.690
– then two, what do you guys do to,

848
00:30:18.690 –> 00:30:21.669
– like, really try to encourage people to

849
00:30:21.970 –> 00:30:24.769
– start shifting on that empathy, on the pain,

850
00:30:24.769 –> 00:30:26.929
– and more away from the Sherlock ing and

851
00:30:26.929 –> 00:30:29.605
– the spying and the obsessing over how because

852
00:30:29.605 –> 00:30:31.444
– I do find it’s hard to do both

853
00:30:31.444 –> 00:30:33.605
– of those phases at the same time. Yeah.

854
00:30:33.605 –> 00:30:36.005
– At least from the guy’s standpoint because it’s

855
00:30:36.005 –> 00:30:38.744
– like Mhmm. It’s really it’s a mother son

856
00:30:38.805 –> 00:30:40.805
– energy to it of, like, prove to me

857
00:30:40.805 –> 00:30:42.884
– you’re not acting out. And it’s a very

858
00:30:43.319 –> 00:30:44.940
– it’s hard for me to show up

859
00:30:45.639 –> 00:30:48.200
– and honor your pain when I feel like

860
00:30:48.200 –> 00:30:50.440
– there’s the power dynamics lopsided. Can you guys

861
00:30:50.440 –> 00:30:51.339
– answer that? Absolutely.

862
00:30:51.720 –> 00:30:54.220
– Well, especially that power dynamic we see in

863
00:30:54.279 –> 00:30:56.759
– so many couples, right, which kinda makes sense.

864
00:30:56.759 –> 00:30:59.134
– The person who feels unsafe and out of

865
00:30:59.134 –> 00:31:01.535
– control is trying to take control so they

866
00:31:01.535 –> 00:31:04.595
– feel more safe. And they’re usually the more

867
00:31:04.894 –> 00:31:05.394
– capable

868
00:31:06.095 –> 00:31:08.755
– person in the relationship in terms of initiating,

869
00:31:08.974 –> 00:31:10.974
– right, and maybe seeing, like, what the healthy

870
00:31:10.974 –> 00:31:12.420
– path forward is. And so

871
00:31:12.820 –> 00:31:14.740
– naturally, they can step into here’s what you

872
00:31:14.740 –> 00:31:16.340
– need to do, here’s what needs to happen,

873
00:31:16.340 –> 00:31:17.940
– here’s what you need to tell me. Right?

874
00:31:17.940 –> 00:31:20.900
– But it just makes that imbalance even stronger.

875
00:31:20.900 –> 00:31:23.299
– And so even in that first recovery phase,

876
00:31:23.299 –> 00:31:25.394
– we work really hard with couples to not

877
00:31:25.394 –> 00:31:28.355
– create that imbalance because it’s nearly impossible to

878
00:31:28.355 –> 00:31:30.515
– move on from there while you’re still in

879
00:31:30.515 –> 00:31:32.115
– that when you’re still in that Thank you

880
00:31:32.115 –> 00:31:34.035
– for saying that because that’s always my perception

881
00:31:34.035 –> 00:31:36.355
– is it’s like, I feel like because that

882
00:31:36.355 –> 00:31:39.289
– is maintained in such a high percentage

883
00:31:39.589 –> 00:31:41.589
– of relationships and to the betrayed partners listening

884
00:31:41.589 –> 00:31:43.669
– to this, I empathize. I get it. Like

885
00:31:43.669 –> 00:31:46.069
– it’s you’re trying to make sure that this

886
00:31:46.069 –> 00:31:48.710
– never happens and so really focusing on the,

887
00:31:48.710 –> 00:31:49.210
– hey,

888
00:31:49.669 –> 00:31:51.345
– are you doing this? Accusations,

889
00:31:51.725 –> 00:31:52.785
– spying, Sherlocking,

890
00:31:53.085 –> 00:31:53.585
– tracking,

891
00:31:54.125 –> 00:31:55.965
– habitual yeah. I get it. You’re trying to

892
00:31:55.965 –> 00:31:57.965
– not get hurt again. But I do just

893
00:31:57.965 –> 00:31:59.884
– want everybody listening to this, at least in

894
00:31:59.884 –> 00:32:02.365
– my perspective. Mhmm. The couples who I see

895
00:32:02.365 –> 00:32:04.445
– really start to get into a place where

896
00:32:04.445 –> 00:32:06.360
– they start to come together and healing does

897
00:32:06.360 –> 00:32:09.420
– happen, it is when we try to

898
00:32:09.799 –> 00:32:11.720
– kind of move out and away from the

899
00:32:11.720 –> 00:32:13.960
– crisis. Now, again, I’m not saying delete the

900
00:32:13.960 –> 00:32:15.799
– tracking. That’s that’s not what I’m saying. But

901
00:32:15.799 –> 00:32:17.500
– what I’m saying is the focus

902
00:32:17.804 –> 00:32:19.644
– moving forward. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Well, it does

903
00:32:19.644 –> 00:32:22.204
– have to be a very mutual shift, right,

904
00:32:22.204 –> 00:32:24.044
– where that partner kind of steps back and

905
00:32:24.044 –> 00:32:26.125
– lets go, but at the same time, the

906
00:32:26.125 –> 00:32:28.065
– betraying spouse steps in

907
00:32:28.365 –> 00:32:30.524
– and fills those places and says, now I’m

908
00:32:30.524 –> 00:32:32.524
– bringing honesty and safety to you. You don’t

909
00:32:32.524 –> 00:32:33.885
– have to pull it out of me anymore.

910
00:32:33.885 –> 00:32:35.950
– Yeah. I just I want to speak to

911
00:32:35.950 –> 00:32:37.789
– that for a second. So Matthew, on that,

912
00:32:37.789 –> 00:32:39.950
– are we talking about because to me, the

913
00:32:39.950 –> 00:32:41.630
– way that because when I remember my wife

914
00:32:41.630 –> 00:32:42.990
– and I pivoting into that, it was like,

915
00:32:42.990 –> 00:32:43.730
– Okay. Hey,

916
00:32:44.190 –> 00:32:46.515
– I’m going to say, Hey, this is happening

917
00:32:46.515 –> 00:32:49.234
– here. I noticed this. I recognize that that

918
00:32:49.234 –> 00:32:51.234
– room was just a lot of alcohol was

919
00:32:51.234 –> 00:32:52.994
– being consumed in that room. It’s probably just

920
00:32:52.994 –> 00:32:54.595
– not a room for me to be in.

921
00:32:54.595 –> 00:32:56.355
– And so I just chose to go home

922
00:32:56.355 –> 00:32:57.715
– after at that point in time. Right? Is

923
00:32:57.715 –> 00:32:59.654
– that kinda what we’re talking about is, like,

924
00:33:00.000 –> 00:33:02.960
– you taking over? Like, I’m gonna police myself

925
00:33:02.960 –> 00:33:04.720
– so you don’t have to. Matthew, what you

926
00:33:04.720 –> 00:33:07.059
– talk about that transition so they can stop.

927
00:33:07.279 –> 00:33:09.680
– Mhmm. Absolutely. I mean, it’s gonna be you

928
00:33:09.680 –> 00:33:11.599
– know, you’re gonna be doing that work, and

929
00:33:11.599 –> 00:33:14.320
– that’s still even some of, honestly, phase one

930
00:33:14.320 –> 00:33:16.644
– work, but it’s that sense that, hey, she

931
00:33:16.644 –> 00:33:18.644
– has such confidence in my recovery that she’s

932
00:33:18.644 –> 00:33:20.484
– not asking questions about it. Now, she might

933
00:33:20.484 –> 00:33:22.805
– have interest in it. She’s curious about it,

934
00:33:22.805 –> 00:33:24.565
– but it’s not questions that are coming from

935
00:33:24.565 –> 00:33:26.325
– fear. It’s questions that are going like, oh,

936
00:33:26.325 –> 00:33:28.265
– let me understand that a little bit better.

937
00:33:28.500 –> 00:33:31.140
– Right? When there’s fear based questions, that’s usually

938
00:33:31.140 –> 00:33:33.859
– when there’s not that balanced dynamic. Gotcha. Because

939
00:33:33.859 –> 00:33:36.500
– what’s really interesting about the restoration phase is

940
00:33:36.500 –> 00:33:38.839
– it doesn’t always have a lot to do

941
00:33:39.059 –> 00:33:39.880
– with recovery.

942
00:33:40.595 –> 00:33:42.295
– It will have to do with the betrayal,

943
00:33:42.595 –> 00:33:45.075
– right, and the impact of the emotional experience

944
00:33:45.075 –> 00:33:45.815
– of the betrayal,

945
00:33:46.195 –> 00:33:47.875
– but it has not a lot to do

946
00:33:47.875 –> 00:33:49.634
– with addiction. At least it shouldn’t. If we’re

947
00:33:49.634 –> 00:33:52.035
– still dealing with addiction, we’re dealing with level

948
00:33:52.035 –> 00:33:54.775
– one. Level two is more about

949
00:33:55.559 –> 00:33:57.740
– what are the ways in which the relationship

950
00:33:58.119 –> 00:34:01.419
– wasn’t balanced. Mhmm. It wasn’t cared for equally.

951
00:34:01.720 –> 00:34:03.639
– And that can be tricky for people because

952
00:34:03.799 –> 00:34:05.319
– Mhmm. A lot of times, it might be

953
00:34:05.319 –> 00:34:07.639
– like, hey. I’m providing the finances for the

954
00:34:07.639 –> 00:34:09.764
– relationship, and that’s what what I provide, and

955
00:34:09.764 –> 00:34:11.385
– then they provide everything else.

956
00:34:11.844 –> 00:34:14.324
– Phase two for couples is going, how do

957
00:34:14.324 –> 00:34:16.565
– we really want this to be? What does

958
00:34:16.565 –> 00:34:19.045
– true balance look like? Mhmm. And one of

959
00:34:19.045 –> 00:34:21.284
– the reasons that couples grieving can be really

960
00:34:21.284 –> 00:34:23.525
– helpful in phase two is it balances the

961
00:34:23.525 –> 00:34:25.239
– emotional weight of the relationship.

962
00:34:25.619 –> 00:34:28.420
– It says, I’m not gonna require you carry

963
00:34:28.420 –> 00:34:30.659
– all the emotional weight of this. I will

964
00:34:30.659 –> 00:34:32.819
– actually carry some of it too. I’m not

965
00:34:32.819 –> 00:34:34.819
– carrying it for you. So a lot of

966
00:34:34.819 –> 00:34:36.659
– people think that couples grieving is, oh, I’m

967
00:34:36.659 –> 00:34:39.014
– gonna take my wife’s grief, and I’ll hold

968
00:34:39.014 –> 00:34:41.335
– on to it. It’s more of I’m gonna

969
00:34:41.335 –> 00:34:42.474
– engage my own grief.

970
00:34:42.855 –> 00:34:45.094
– I’m gonna engage my own emotions, and I’m

971
00:34:45.094 –> 00:34:46.855
– gonna do that, and I’m gonna do that

972
00:34:46.855 –> 00:34:48.454
– with you. And that’s gonna feel real vulnerable

973
00:34:48.454 –> 00:34:50.454
– for me because I’ve probably been someone who’s

974
00:34:50.454 –> 00:34:52.474
– stuffing my emotions my whole life.

975
00:34:52.820 –> 00:34:54.820
– And so this work is gonna feel scary,

976
00:34:54.820 –> 00:34:56.659
– but it’s what’s gonna allow us to share

977
00:34:56.659 –> 00:34:57.400
– it together.

978
00:34:57.699 –> 00:34:59.940
– And that’s what allows us to share more

979
00:34:59.940 –> 00:35:00.440
– things.

980
00:35:00.739 –> 00:35:02.420
– One of the things that I recognize in

981
00:35:02.420 –> 00:35:04.739
– our own relationship is Joanna had really been

982
00:35:04.739 –> 00:35:07.304
– the relational driver for our marriage. Yeah. She

983
00:35:07.304 –> 00:35:10.025
– had sought the resources out. She had found

984
00:35:10.025 –> 00:35:11.625
– the help. She had signed us up for

985
00:35:11.625 –> 00:35:12.204
– the classes.

986
00:35:12.664 –> 00:35:14.264
– She scheduled a lot of the dates. I

987
00:35:14.264 –> 00:35:16.045
– mean, she was really the person

988
00:35:16.585 –> 00:35:17.724
– prior to discovery

989
00:35:18.184 –> 00:35:20.344
– who was caring for our marriage and the

990
00:35:20.344 –> 00:35:21.804
– kind of health of our relationship.

991
00:35:22.469 –> 00:35:25.269
– And so post recovery meant that I had

992
00:35:25.269 –> 00:35:27.609
– to be someone who balanced her in that.

993
00:35:27.750 –> 00:35:29.829
– She couldn’t be the person for us to

994
00:35:29.829 –> 00:35:31.050
– move forward appropriately

995
00:35:31.429 –> 00:35:33.269
– that did all of that work. Mhmm. And

996
00:35:33.269 –> 00:35:35.130
– even though it wasn’t about betrayal,

997
00:35:35.429 –> 00:35:37.429
– it was about care of the relationship. And

998
00:35:37.429 –> 00:35:39.724
– so I think that’s where sometimes people kinda

999
00:35:39.724 –> 00:35:40.224
– forget.

1000
00:35:40.765 –> 00:35:44.445
– I’ve seen husbands restore balance with parenting. Mhmm.

1001
00:35:44.445 –> 00:35:47.244
– Right? With sharing budget conversations. Right? It can

1002
00:35:47.244 –> 00:35:49.585
– be things that have nothing to do

1003
00:35:49.965 –> 00:35:50.785
– with infidelity,

1004
00:35:51.549 –> 00:35:53.630
– but everything to do about the care of

1005
00:35:53.630 –> 00:35:55.469
– the relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And just for the

1006
00:35:55.469 –> 00:35:57.710
– listeners to clarify, it doesn’t always mean

1007
00:35:58.349 –> 00:36:00.029
– because, again, a lot of the pushback I

1008
00:36:00.029 –> 00:36:02.750
– get, especially in my groups because of the

1009
00:36:02.750 –> 00:36:04.349
– career positions a lot of these men are

1010
00:36:04.349 –> 00:36:06.849
– in, there are really defined rules.

1011
00:36:07.445 –> 00:36:08.965
– Guys, I want you to hear though, what

1012
00:36:08.965 –> 00:36:11.684
– Matthew said, he did not say you’re taking

1013
00:36:11.684 –> 00:36:14.425
– some, she’s taking. There’s sometimes acknowledgement

1014
00:36:14.805 –> 00:36:15.305
– of

1015
00:36:15.684 –> 00:36:16.505
– an appreciation.

1016
00:36:16.885 –> 00:36:18.405
– It can just come back of like, oh

1017
00:36:18.405 –> 00:36:20.005
– my gosh. I just you know, I’m sorry.

1018
00:36:20.005 –> 00:36:21.605
– For the last, like, ten years, I did

1019
00:36:21.605 –> 00:36:22.344
– not realize

1020
00:36:22.989 –> 00:36:25.150
– what you were doing to help me be

1021
00:36:25.150 –> 00:36:26.910
– able to do what I do. Right? So

1022
00:36:26.910 –> 00:36:28.430
– some of it is just a lot of

1023
00:36:28.430 –> 00:36:31.070
– that grieving is just things that weren’t said,

1024
00:36:31.070 –> 00:36:33.230
– things that weren’t seen, things that weren’t heard.

1025
00:36:33.230 –> 00:36:34.910
– So again, I I just want everybody here,

1026
00:36:34.910 –> 00:36:36.355
– like, we’re not saying that all of a

1027
00:36:36.355 –> 00:36:38.994
– sudden your guys’ marital dynamic’s gonna change because

1028
00:36:38.994 –> 00:36:40.835
– a lot of it is set up the

1029
00:36:40.835 –> 00:36:42.434
– way that you guys like it. But a

1030
00:36:42.434 –> 00:36:44.275
– lot of it is just what wasn’t being

1031
00:36:44.275 –> 00:36:46.114
– voiced. And Joanna, I had a question for

1032
00:36:46.114 –> 00:36:47.954
– you. What one of the things I see

1033
00:36:47.954 –> 00:36:49.655
– in this phase though is

1034
00:36:50.429 –> 00:36:51.630
– so much of what’s talked about in the

1035
00:36:51.630 –> 00:36:54.130
– books and the podcast is, oh, his addiction

1036
00:36:54.269 –> 00:36:55.650
– was taken care of.

1037
00:36:56.349 –> 00:36:59.089
– I don’t think there’s a guy in my

1038
00:36:59.150 –> 00:36:59.550
– groups

1039
00:37:00.030 –> 00:37:02.429
– that’s not true. I always say 60 forty.

1040
00:37:02.429 –> 00:37:04.210
– I think forty percent of guys

1041
00:37:04.965 –> 00:37:06.885
– get a really good grip on this, and

1042
00:37:06.885 –> 00:37:08.724
– it really I’m not gonna say it’s behind

1043
00:37:08.724 –> 00:37:10.325
– them because I think that’s a bold statement,

1044
00:37:10.325 –> 00:37:12.184
– but I think it’s I think if they

1045
00:37:12.405 –> 00:37:14.425
– stay on some degree of recovery,

1046
00:37:14.885 –> 00:37:16.905
– I think they’re in a pretty safe spot.

1047
00:37:17.280 –> 00:37:18.179
– I would say

1048
00:37:18.559 –> 00:37:20.719
– 60 to 70, they’re gonna need to keep

1049
00:37:20.719 –> 00:37:23.300
– their foot on the gas forever. Their childhood,

1050
00:37:24.079 –> 00:37:25.059
– their personality,

1051
00:37:25.679 –> 00:37:26.980
– their life experiences,

1052
00:37:27.360 –> 00:37:29.920
– their career that they’re still actively engaged in

1053
00:37:29.920 –> 00:37:30.900
– to this day.

1054
00:37:31.280 –> 00:37:32.739
– So much of their life

1055
00:37:33.144 –> 00:37:34.125
– is just a very

1056
00:37:34.425 –> 00:37:36.825
– activating and triggering existence for a lot of

1057
00:37:36.825 –> 00:37:38.905
– them. And they can’t stop it because so

1058
00:37:38.905 –> 00:37:41.224
– much of their fulfillment comes from what they’re

1059
00:37:41.224 –> 00:37:43.065
– doing in their career as well. So I

1060
00:37:43.065 –> 00:37:44.825
– don’t think the answer is to just have

1061
00:37:44.825 –> 00:37:47.030
– these guys stay locked up at home and

1062
00:37:47.030 –> 00:37:49.110
– change their careers. I think that’s a sad

1063
00:37:49.110 –> 00:37:51.030
– thing too. But what I guess my question

1064
00:37:51.030 –> 00:37:52.170
– is, Joanna, is

1065
00:37:52.469 –> 00:37:54.070
– so much of the podcast, a lot of

1066
00:37:54.070 –> 00:37:56.010
– the books talk about, okay. Cool. His addiction’s

1067
00:37:56.070 –> 00:37:58.070
– taken care of, and now he’s I would

1068
00:37:58.070 –> 00:37:59.750
– say the vast majority of the guys in

1069
00:37:59.750 –> 00:38:00.409
– my groups

1070
00:38:00.869 –> 00:38:02.284
– want to flirt

1071
00:38:02.744 –> 00:38:05.304
– often, if not weekly. They don’t, and they

1072
00:38:05.304 –> 00:38:06.684
– recognize the desire.

1073
00:38:06.984 –> 00:38:08.664
– But, I mean, in no way is this

1074
00:38:08.664 –> 00:38:10.505
– thing gone. I mean, they get in the

1075
00:38:10.505 –> 00:38:12.425
– gym. They notice the desire to do it.

1076
00:38:12.425 –> 00:38:14.505
– They go on the trip, and they see

1077
00:38:14.505 –> 00:38:16.659
– the opportunity, and their brain is like, oh

1078
00:38:16.659 –> 00:38:18.179
– my gosh. I used to love doing that.

1079
00:38:18.179 –> 00:38:20.739
– And they don’t. So they’re still in their

1080
00:38:20.739 –> 00:38:22.760
– sobriety. They’re still in their integrity.

1081
00:38:23.059 –> 00:38:23.559
– But

1082
00:38:23.940 –> 00:38:26.039
– I don’t want these guys to hide

1083
00:38:26.739 –> 00:38:28.760
– Mhmm. The day to day struggle

1084
00:38:29.214 –> 00:38:30.974
– just so that we can move on in

1085
00:38:30.974 –> 00:38:32.655
– phase two and three. Can you speak to

1086
00:38:32.655 –> 00:38:34.835
– this? Because I do see partners go

1087
00:38:35.534 –> 00:38:37.714
– from phase one into phase two.

1088
00:38:38.014 –> 00:38:40.335
– They ask some challenging questions. In the name

1089
00:38:40.335 –> 00:38:42.574
– of honesty, the guy is honest with, yeah,

1090
00:38:42.574 –> 00:38:45.010
– this is still very present for me when

1091
00:38:45.010 –> 00:38:45.670
– I travel.

1092
00:38:46.289 –> 00:38:48.210
– And then all of a sudden, she goes

1093
00:38:48.210 –> 00:38:50.130
– right back. It’s like, Okay, no, we’re not.

1094
00:38:50.130 –> 00:38:51.889
– You’re still an addict. So can you speak

1095
00:38:51.889 –> 00:38:53.650
– to this? Because I think sometimes if we

1096
00:38:53.650 –> 00:38:54.690
– get hung up on that

1097
00:38:55.724 –> 00:38:57.744
– I mean, I’ll be honest with the listeners.

1098
00:38:57.885 –> 00:39:00.525
– I struggle to this day with probably my

1099
00:39:00.525 –> 00:39:03.105
– top two or three acting out behaviors.

1100
00:39:03.565 –> 00:39:05.085
– I don’t engage in them, but I mean,

1101
00:39:05.085 –> 00:39:07.244
– when I travel, they are right there. My

1102
00:39:07.244 –> 00:39:10.059
– body says, get her attention. Go get you

1103
00:39:10.059 –> 00:39:12.139
– know, and that is what my brain wants

1104
00:39:12.139 –> 00:39:13.500
– to do. Go prove this. See if you

1105
00:39:13.500 –> 00:39:14.719
– can’t impress her, etcetera.

1106
00:39:15.019 –> 00:39:16.619
– Right? And so does that make me I

1107
00:39:16.619 –> 00:39:17.980
– feel I feel like it’s really fair to

1108
00:39:17.980 –> 00:39:19.980
– call me not sober or not in great

1109
00:39:19.980 –> 00:39:21.820
– recovery though because I haven’t done it and

1110
00:39:21.820 –> 00:39:23.405
– I don’t do it. And I I would

1111
00:39:23.405 –> 00:39:25.565
– stand by my wife being safe that I

1112
00:39:25.565 –> 00:39:27.244
– have tools in place. Can you speak to

1113
00:39:27.244 –> 00:39:28.445
– that, though? Because I don’t want this to

1114
00:39:28.445 –> 00:39:31.085
– also just discredit guys who are still fighting

1115
00:39:31.085 –> 00:39:33.244
– the good fight too because I feel like

1116
00:39:33.244 –> 00:39:34.304
– this isn’t like

1117
00:39:34.605 –> 00:39:36.704
– alcoholism and you don’t detox,

1118
00:39:37.050 –> 00:39:38.429
– get this out of your system,

1119
00:39:38.730 –> 00:39:40.489
– and move forward. And for a lot of

1120
00:39:40.489 –> 00:39:41.469
– guys, sexuality,

1121
00:39:42.010 –> 00:39:44.010
– I mean, this is something that may haunt

1122
00:39:44.010 –> 00:39:45.550
– them off and on forever.

1123
00:39:46.010 –> 00:39:48.010
– Yeah. Yeah. I think two things. So many

1124
00:39:48.010 –> 00:39:50.394
– things, but two things. I think that’s why

1125
00:39:50.394 –> 00:39:53.214
– it’s so important to have really good,

1126
00:39:53.514 –> 00:39:55.054
– open, honest communication

1127
00:39:55.434 –> 00:39:58.234
– built into your relationship on a daily basis.

1128
00:39:58.234 –> 00:39:59.835
– Yeah. Yeah. What we don’t want is we

1129
00:39:59.835 –> 00:40:00.815
– don’t want surprises.

1130
00:40:01.434 –> 00:40:03.900
– We don’t want that wife thinking, oh, this

1131
00:40:03.900 –> 00:40:06.559
– isn’t something he struggles with at all anymore.

1132
00:40:06.780 –> 00:40:08.780
– And then six months later, find out, oh,

1133
00:40:08.780 –> 00:40:10.539
– you’ve been struggling with it on a daily

1134
00:40:10.539 –> 00:40:11.599
– or weekly basis.

1135
00:40:11.900 –> 00:40:13.760
– That is what will feel like a betrayal.

1136
00:40:13.900 –> 00:40:16.219
– That is what will send them backwards so

1137
00:40:16.219 –> 00:40:17.655
– quickly and so far.

1138
00:40:18.054 –> 00:40:19.835
– If they have open communication

1139
00:40:20.215 –> 00:40:22.215
– about, okay, what is the expectation of what

1140
00:40:22.215 –> 00:40:22.954
– is communicated,

1141
00:40:23.255 –> 00:40:23.994
– the details,

1142
00:40:24.454 –> 00:40:26.715
– right, when it’s communicated, how quickly.

1143
00:40:27.094 –> 00:40:29.574
– So they both have a very crystal clear

1144
00:40:29.574 –> 00:40:32.789
– understanding of where he is in his recovery,

1145
00:40:32.789 –> 00:40:33.690
– in his journey.

1146
00:40:33.989 –> 00:40:35.849
– Then she gets an empowered decision

1147
00:40:36.150 –> 00:40:37.989
– on how and if and how far she

1148
00:40:37.989 –> 00:40:39.690
– is ready to move forward in the relationship.

1149
00:40:39.829 –> 00:40:41.429
– Gotcha. And I think that So it’s not

1150
00:40:41.429 –> 00:40:43.589
– mutually exclusive. You can still be in phase

1151
00:40:43.589 –> 00:40:44.089
– two

1152
00:40:44.454 –> 00:40:46.074
– while the guy is practicing,

1153
00:40:46.775 –> 00:40:48.614
– his integrity and living with the potential. A

1154
00:40:48.614 –> 00:40:51.174
– lot of guys got a many years process.

1155
00:40:51.174 –> 00:40:52.375
– And so we wouldn’t say, like, well, you

1156
00:40:52.375 –> 00:40:54.775
– can’t do any relational work for a decade

1157
00:40:54.775 –> 00:40:57.514
– because you’re still working through your childhood traumas.

1158
00:40:57.655 –> 00:41:00.289
– Right? So going okay. And then they need

1159
00:41:00.289 –> 00:41:02.050
– to be able to both be empowered to

1160
00:41:02.050 –> 00:41:04.369
– make empowered decisions basically together. I like that.

1161
00:41:04.369 –> 00:41:06.369
– And if she doesn’t have complete information, she

1162
00:41:06.369 –> 00:41:08.530
– can’t do that. So that’s that openness. That

1163
00:41:08.530 –> 00:41:10.949
– is what is building that honesty, that safety

1164
00:41:11.255 –> 00:41:13.335
– that then allows them to decide if when

1165
00:41:13.335 –> 00:41:15.255
– they’re ready to step into restoration. And then

1166
00:41:15.414 –> 00:41:17.335
– Yeah. And then for the guys in that

1167
00:41:17.335 –> 00:41:19.195
– place, I think one of the pieces

1168
00:41:19.494 –> 00:41:21.574
– that gets missed a lot in recovery is

1169
00:41:21.574 –> 00:41:23.594
– how do I develop healthy sexuality?

1170
00:41:24.190 –> 00:41:26.110
– I work so hard in my recovery to

1171
00:41:26.110 –> 00:41:28.130
– get rid of the unhealthy sexuality,

1172
00:41:28.750 –> 00:41:31.469
– right? But I’m forever fighting to keep that

1173
00:41:31.469 –> 00:41:33.390
– away rather than going, how do I feel

1174
00:41:33.390 –> 00:41:35.329
– something healthy into its place

1175
00:41:35.710 –> 00:41:38.030
– so I’m not constantly battling the bad because

1176
00:41:38.030 –> 00:41:39.434
– I’m so full of the good, Right? And

1177
00:41:39.434 –> 00:41:40.875
– so making sure that And then and that

1178
00:41:40.875 –> 00:41:43.515
– is a phase three. So, Matthew, take us

1179
00:41:43.515 –> 00:41:45.994
– into phase three then. How what’s the title

1180
00:41:45.994 –> 00:41:48.075
– and then what’s the difference between the work

1181
00:41:48.075 –> 00:41:50.155
– that is being done in phase three versus

1182
00:41:50.155 –> 00:41:51.594
– the work being done in phase two? Because

1183
00:41:51.594 –> 00:41:53.695
– I do think that becomes a little murky

1184
00:41:54.059 –> 00:41:55.660
– as well in terms of, hey. Hey. What’s

1185
00:41:55.660 –> 00:41:58.300
– the difference? Yeah. And please, for anyone who’s

1186
00:41:58.300 –> 00:41:59.739
– listening, when we talk about these phases, they’re

1187
00:41:59.820 –> 00:42:02.219
– you don’t get a graduation certificate. Right? There’s

1188
00:42:02.219 –> 00:42:04.059
– not this isn’t like high school to college

1189
00:42:04.059 –> 00:42:06.335
– to post grad. Like, this is they are

1190
00:42:06.335 –> 00:42:06.695
– because you you

1191
00:42:07.735 –> 00:42:09.114
– Fluid. Very fluid. Very fluid.

1192
00:42:09.574 –> 00:42:12.215
– We call phase three the renewal phase. And

1193
00:42:12.215 –> 00:42:14.775
– when the relationship has been restored in terms

1194
00:42:14.775 –> 00:42:17.815
– of the balance, the partnership, right, that we’ve

1195
00:42:17.815 –> 00:42:19.559
– kinda figured out, hey. We are in this

1196
00:42:19.559 –> 00:42:21.720
– together, and we and there is some trust

1197
00:42:21.720 –> 00:42:24.200
– that’s been reestablished. Not full complete trust that’s

1198
00:42:24.200 –> 00:42:27.239
– constantly being rebuilt and strengthened, but now we

1199
00:42:27.239 –> 00:42:28.920
– have a chance to decide what we really

1200
00:42:28.920 –> 00:42:30.840
– want out of life. And like Joanna was

1201
00:42:30.840 –> 00:42:32.920
– talking about, what so often gets missed is

1202
00:42:32.920 –> 00:42:35.715
– that conversation. Yeah. It’s the, hey. We survived.

1203
00:42:35.855 –> 00:42:37.934
– Yeah. But are we really gonna talk about

1204
00:42:37.934 –> 00:42:39.775
– whether we thrive or not? And And a

1205
00:42:39.775 –> 00:42:40.974
– lot of way we think about it is

1206
00:42:40.974 –> 00:42:43.775
– I think a lot of recovery couples forever

1207
00:42:43.775 –> 00:42:46.829
– see themselves as a recovery couple. Yes. I

1208
00:42:46.829 –> 00:42:48.989
– I do have an episode coming out. This

1209
00:42:49.070 –> 00:42:50.670
– your guys’ will be in a couple months.

1210
00:42:50.670 –> 00:42:53.250
– I have an episode coming out literally tomorrow

1211
00:42:53.950 –> 00:42:56.849
– called what happens when this becomes your identity

1212
00:42:57.230 –> 00:42:59.650
– because I see that so often. Yeah. Exactly.

1213
00:42:59.869 –> 00:43:02.184
– And couples get stuck, I think. Right? They

1214
00:43:02.184 –> 00:43:04.184
– get stuck with this being their identity. This

1215
00:43:04.184 –> 00:43:06.045
– is who what defines our relationship,

1216
00:43:06.344 –> 00:43:08.105
– and that’s not a very fun relationship to

1217
00:43:08.105 –> 00:43:09.304
– be a part of. Like, that’s not you

1218
00:43:09.304 –> 00:43:11.144
– don’t want that to be your identity as

1219
00:43:11.144 –> 00:43:13.085
– a couple. It’s not that.

1220
00:43:13.385 –> 00:43:15.299
– Wouldn’t you say that’s a hard Betray Partners,

1221
00:43:16.319 –> 00:43:17.779
– letting that go.

1222
00:43:18.159 –> 00:43:21.760
– What that stands for to them is so

1223
00:43:21.760 –> 00:43:23.839
– scary. It’s the pinnacle of fear for a

1224
00:43:23.839 –> 00:43:27.039
– lot of people. Again, no partner have I

1225
00:43:27.039 –> 00:43:29.275
– ever met who says, oh, I wanna hold

1226
00:43:29.275 –> 00:43:30.954
– on to this part of my story and

1227
00:43:30.954 –> 00:43:33.114
– this is what defines me. They’re saying the

1228
00:43:33.114 –> 00:43:35.434
– opposite. They’re like, I never wanted this to

1229
00:43:35.434 –> 00:43:36.954
– be part of my story. I don’t want

1230
00:43:37.034 –> 00:43:38.954
– right? If there’s anyone again who wants And

1231
00:43:38.954 –> 00:43:40.635
– there’s a lot of anger around that. I

1232
00:43:40.635 –> 00:43:43.049
– mean, that to me, that was I found

1233
00:43:43.109 –> 00:43:44.569
– us hung up on

1234
00:43:45.109 –> 00:43:47.210
– I think this was probably the most frustrating

1235
00:43:47.589 –> 00:43:50.170
– phase for my wife and I was

1236
00:43:50.630 –> 00:43:52.329
– the tail end of two

1237
00:43:52.789 –> 00:43:55.429
– of the anger. I don’t wanna let this

1238
00:43:55.429 –> 00:43:57.984
– go. I’m still mad about this. And it

1239
00:43:57.984 –> 00:44:00.405
– was so hard for me to get

1240
00:44:00.704 –> 00:44:01.905
– you know, and I’m the last person in

1241
00:44:01.905 –> 00:44:03.744
– the world to convince her to drop it.

1242
00:44:03.744 –> 00:44:05.425
– So speak to that, though, because that is,

1243
00:44:05.425 –> 00:44:07.105
– like, what a what a hard thing to

1244
00:44:07.105 –> 00:44:08.085
– do. Absolutely.

1245
00:44:08.464 –> 00:44:08.964
– Absolutely.

1246
00:44:09.264 –> 00:44:10.784
– And one of the cool things is the

1247
00:44:10.784 –> 00:44:13.609
– shift we see from restoration to renewal

1248
00:44:14.069 –> 00:44:17.210
– is when the betraying spouse is like, okay.

1249
00:44:17.750 –> 00:44:20.630
– So you’re angry about this. Mhmm. That’s okay.

1250
00:44:20.630 –> 00:44:22.789
– We should both be angry about it. Yeah.

1251
00:44:22.789 –> 00:44:24.969
– We should both be able to share

1252
00:44:25.594 –> 00:44:28.315
– in the feelings associated with this. And, you

1253
00:44:28.315 –> 00:44:29.835
– know, one of the things that Joanna said

1254
00:44:29.835 –> 00:44:31.034
– to me, she’s like, I don’t want you

1255
00:44:31.034 –> 00:44:32.474
– to feel for me. Like, I wanna ask

1256
00:44:32.554 –> 00:44:34.474
– like, she asked me point blank. Do you

1257
00:44:34.474 –> 00:44:36.635
– care about what happened to us? Are you

1258
00:44:36.635 –> 00:44:37.135
– mad

1259
00:44:37.755 –> 00:44:38.734
– about what happened

1260
00:44:39.034 –> 00:44:40.335
– to our marriage?

1261
00:44:40.650 –> 00:44:43.049
– Because I thought you liked our marriage. I

1262
00:44:43.049 –> 00:44:44.569
– thought you liked who we are as a

1263
00:44:44.569 –> 00:44:45.929
– couple. And I had to think about it,

1264
00:44:45.929 –> 00:44:47.769
– and I was like, holy crap. Yeah. I

1265
00:44:47.769 –> 00:44:49.609
– am mad. So I have a question for

1266
00:44:49.609 –> 00:44:50.889
– you. I have a question for you two

1267
00:44:50.889 –> 00:44:52.409
– on that, and I forgot to ask it

1268
00:44:52.409 –> 00:44:53.309
– in the last section.

1269
00:44:53.824 –> 00:44:56.065
– And it’s a touchy one. I’m sad it’s

1270
00:44:56.065 –> 00:44:58.304
– touchy because I’m pissed it shouldn’t be touchy.

1271
00:44:58.304 –> 00:45:00.224
– We’re talking about human beings here, but it

1272
00:45:00.224 –> 00:45:01.125
– is unfortunately

1273
00:45:01.744 –> 00:45:03.125
– a touchy question.

1274
00:45:03.744 –> 00:45:04.964
– Do you guys include

1275
00:45:06.230 –> 00:45:06.730
– the

1276
00:45:07.109 –> 00:45:09.750
– trauma and the pain and the sadness that

1277
00:45:09.750 –> 00:45:10.650
– happens to

1278
00:45:11.109 –> 00:45:11.609
– the

1279
00:45:11.909 –> 00:45:12.969
– cheating partner

1280
00:45:13.269 –> 00:45:15.909
– in phase two? Because I just I feel

1281
00:45:15.909 –> 00:45:18.150
– like far too often it’s like, oh, you

1282
00:45:18.150 –> 00:45:20.364
– don’t matter because of what you’ve done. And

1283
00:45:20.364 –> 00:45:22.525
– I find it such a stuck point to

1284
00:45:22.525 –> 00:45:24.065
– get into phase three

1285
00:45:24.605 –> 00:45:27.325
– when it’s just been the betrayed partner show

1286
00:45:27.325 –> 00:45:29.105
– for a year or two.

1287
00:45:29.405 –> 00:45:31.325
– I mean, that’s really, really hard because at

1288
00:45:31.325 –> 00:45:33.559
– that point in time, I don’t know if

1289
00:45:33.559 –> 00:45:35.800
– going into phase three is even possible because

1290
00:45:35.800 –> 00:45:37.820
– it’s just like you’ve just shelved

1291
00:45:38.199 –> 00:45:39.800
– how you feel, you’ve shelved. So do you

1292
00:45:39.800 –> 00:45:42.440
– guys do any of that in phase two

1293
00:45:42.440 –> 00:45:44.039
– or is the Well, it’s very good. But

1294
00:45:44.039 –> 00:45:44.360
– the

1295
00:45:45.079 –> 00:45:47.480
– when we when we talk about couples grieving,

1296
00:45:47.480 –> 00:45:50.175
– that’s very much what we mean. And it’s

1297
00:45:50.175 –> 00:45:52.815
– not doesn’t become this pointing fingers at each

1298
00:45:52.815 –> 00:45:55.215
– other, blame bust. Right? That’s Yeah. Repetition. Like,

1299
00:45:55.215 –> 00:45:57.295
– who had it worse? Who’s who’s the most

1300
00:45:57.295 –> 00:46:01.135
– traumatized and hurt, right? But it’s going, no,

1301
00:46:01.135 –> 00:46:04.195
– we both experienced loss because of what’s happened,

1302
00:46:04.550 –> 00:46:05.449
– and that’s sad.

1303
00:46:05.989 –> 00:46:08.150
– And we can both sit in that sad

1304
00:46:08.150 –> 00:46:09.210
– space together.

1305
00:46:09.829 –> 00:46:13.030
– And honestly, I couldn’t move on until that

1306
00:46:13.030 –> 00:46:15.109
– happened. That was the thing that needed to

1307
00:46:15.109 –> 00:46:15.849
– be happening.

1308
00:46:16.230 –> 00:46:17.690
– I was in my pain

1309
00:46:18.204 –> 00:46:20.844
– experiencing the loss of our relationship alone, which

1310
00:46:20.844 –> 00:46:22.844
– felt really inappropriate because I was like, dude,

1311
00:46:22.844 –> 00:46:24.684
– you are a part of this relationship. Why

1312
00:46:24.684 –> 00:46:27.344
– aren’t you sad? Yeah. It feels really weird.

1313
00:46:27.804 –> 00:46:29.565
– Speak to speak to this because there’s gonna

1314
00:46:29.565 –> 00:46:31.565
– be a lot of betrayed partners listening to

1315
00:46:31.565 –> 00:46:32.304
– this episode.

1316
00:46:32.849 –> 00:46:35.090
– And I will say this is something that

1317
00:46:35.090 –> 00:46:35.590
– happens

1318
00:46:36.130 –> 00:46:38.130
– is nine times out of 10 egregious to

1319
00:46:38.130 –> 00:46:40.210
– say. I mean, I I feel like when

1320
00:46:40.210 –> 00:46:41.190
– the guy says,

1321
00:46:41.570 –> 00:46:42.789
– I feel x,

1322
00:46:43.250 –> 00:46:45.410
– nine times out of 10, the response is,

1323
00:46:45.410 –> 00:46:47.795
– well, how do you think I feel? Can

1324
00:46:47.795 –> 00:46:50.035
– you speak to that though? Because I’ll tell

1325
00:46:50.035 –> 00:46:52.035
– you what, if my the guys in my

1326
00:46:52.035 –> 00:46:54.515
– groups hear that more than four or five,

1327
00:46:54.515 –> 00:46:56.994
– six times, they start to just not wanna

1328
00:46:56.994 –> 00:46:58.994
– share how they feel. Can you can you

1329
00:46:58.994 –> 00:46:59.894
– speak to

1330
00:47:00.449 –> 00:47:02.769
– maybe a a better way to navigate that?

1331
00:47:02.769 –> 00:47:04.929
– Because I hear that. I hear that. Like,

1332
00:47:04.929 –> 00:47:06.789
– I don’t think any of the guys disagree

1333
00:47:07.250 –> 00:47:07.989
– that theirs

1334
00:47:08.530 –> 00:47:10.449
– is 30 time if we’re talking about the

1335
00:47:10.449 –> 00:47:13.089
– same cut, theirs is 30 times deeper. I

1336
00:47:13.089 –> 00:47:14.849
– think we all can agree on that. But

1337
00:47:14.849 –> 00:47:16.885
– I think it’s hard to hear when someone

1338
00:47:16.885 –> 00:47:18.424
– works up the courage to say

1339
00:47:18.804 –> 00:47:20.804
– how they’re feeling and then they get their

1340
00:47:20.804 –> 00:47:23.605
– pain compared to something that they cause. I

1341
00:47:23.605 –> 00:47:24.244
– mean, it is just

1342
00:47:24.885 –> 00:47:26.804
– it’s such a horrible thing to you know,

1343
00:47:26.804 –> 00:47:28.085
– it’s a very sticky point. Can you speak

1344
00:47:28.085 –> 00:47:29.380
– to that? Because I do feel like that’s

1345
00:47:29.380 –> 00:47:31.539
– a a sticky point. This is really, really

1346
00:47:31.539 –> 00:47:33.480
– tricky for couples in relationship because

1347
00:47:33.940 –> 00:47:37.219
– both partners have feelings. Both partners’ feelings are

1348
00:47:37.219 –> 00:47:37.719
– valid

1349
00:47:38.099 –> 00:47:40.900
– and deserve to be heard and acknowledged. They

1350
00:47:40.900 –> 00:47:43.855
– matter. Now how we communicate our feelings can

1351
00:47:43.855 –> 00:47:46.494
– get problematic because if we’re dysregulated and we’re

1352
00:47:46.494 –> 00:47:49.614
– communicating them in destructive and damaging ways, that’s

1353
00:47:49.614 –> 00:47:50.594
– never okay.

1354
00:47:50.894 –> 00:47:52.414
– And so going, okay, we have to first

1355
00:47:52.414 –> 00:47:54.690
– think about if that’s part of what’s happening.

1356
00:47:55.309 –> 00:47:58.110
– Am I communicating my feelings with an ulterior

1357
00:47:58.110 –> 00:48:00.349
– motive of hurting my partner or proving my

1358
00:48:00.349 –> 00:48:02.829
– point or right? But once we get to

1359
00:48:02.829 –> 00:48:05.150
– the place of no, I’m vulnerably sharing my

1360
00:48:05.150 –> 00:48:05.650
– experience,

1361
00:48:06.364 –> 00:48:08.204
– there’s also a piece in and we had

1362
00:48:08.204 –> 00:48:09.804
– to kind of talk and wrestle in our

1363
00:48:09.804 –> 00:48:13.424
– relationship about this of, are we approaching it

1364
00:48:13.484 –> 00:48:15.025
– from a place of reality

1365
00:48:15.324 –> 00:48:17.644
– about what has happened in our relationship? Yeah.

1366
00:48:17.644 –> 00:48:19.505
– When I say I feel unsafe,

1367
00:48:20.400 –> 00:48:22.719
– and Matthew can also have moments where he

1368
00:48:22.719 –> 00:48:25.280
– feels unsafe for whatever reason. Right? But it’s

1369
00:48:25.280 –> 00:48:25.780
– different.

1370
00:48:26.239 –> 00:48:28.159
– That lack of safety that we have both

1371
00:48:28.159 –> 00:48:31.519
– experienced, it is really different. And we have

1372
00:48:31.519 –> 00:48:32.925
– to name that each

1373
00:48:33.804 –> 00:48:35.885
– time we bring that up. Right? We have

1374
00:48:35.885 –> 00:48:36.864
– to make sure

1375
00:48:37.164 –> 00:48:38.864
– we’re still both clear

1376
00:48:39.405 –> 00:48:41.085
– on the damage and how big it is

1377
00:48:41.085 –> 00:48:42.765
– and where it’s been done. And so this

1378
00:48:42.765 –> 00:48:45.405
– does get very, very tricky, and it’s easier,

1379
00:48:45.405 –> 00:48:48.269
– again, for couples later on in the process

1380
00:48:48.269 –> 00:48:50.530
– after their safety and trust established,

1381
00:48:50.989 –> 00:48:53.390
– we can absolutely have those types of conversations.

1382
00:48:53.390 –> 00:48:55.329
– Right. Because the because to because the point,

1383
00:48:55.390 –> 00:48:57.890
– right, phase two, if well done,

1384
00:48:59.025 –> 00:48:59.525
– should

1385
00:48:59.984 –> 00:49:01.905
– do its best to I’m not gonna say

1386
00:49:01.905 –> 00:49:04.625
– neutralize, but Mhmm. If you’ve done a good

1387
00:49:04.625 –> 00:49:05.764
– job of showing

1388
00:49:06.144 –> 00:49:06.964
– up Mhmm.

1389
00:49:07.344 –> 00:49:09.664
– Then the need for the other person to

1390
00:49:09.664 –> 00:49:13.025
– prove that their feelings matter should have decreased.

1391
00:49:13.025 –> 00:49:15.349
– And that’s why I do think, again, I

1392
00:49:15.349 –> 00:49:16.170
– so think

1393
00:49:16.550 –> 00:49:19.269
– that my take of after watching all of

1394
00:49:19.269 –> 00:49:20.949
– this go on year after year after year,

1395
00:49:20.949 –> 00:49:23.610
– my take is that phase one is long.

1396
00:49:24.949 –> 00:49:27.190
– Phase two is, like, a month or two

1397
00:49:27.190 –> 00:49:29.644
– or three or four. And then there’s this

1398
00:49:29.644 –> 00:49:31.005
– go to phase three, go to phase three,

1399
00:49:31.005 –> 00:49:32.704
– go to phase three. And I just feel

1400
00:49:33.244 –> 00:49:35.565
– like phase three never works because it’s like,

1401
00:49:35.565 –> 00:49:37.885
– well, my feelings matter, and, well, my feelings

1402
00:49:37.885 –> 00:49:39.644
– matter. And it’s just I’ve got some people.

1403
00:49:39.644 –> 00:49:41.744
– It’s fine. So you’re back in phase one.

1404
00:49:43.000 –> 00:49:44.599
– Gotta learn how to regulate. And that’s and

1405
00:49:44.599 –> 00:49:46.519
– that’s what’s sad. And that’s what’s hard is

1406
00:49:46.519 –> 00:49:47.960
– we will see couples who’ve been in this

1407
00:49:47.960 –> 00:49:50.539
– work for two, three years, four, five years.

1408
00:49:50.680 –> 00:49:52.360
– And we’re like, you still have some phase

1409
00:49:52.360 –> 00:49:54.360
– one work. Exactly. Phase one work that didn’t

1410
00:49:54.360 –> 00:49:55.800
– get And that’s okay. I just want that

1411
00:49:55.800 –> 00:49:57.675
– to know what phase one you’re getting. It’s

1412
00:49:57.755 –> 00:49:59.515
– better to name it so you can actually

1413
00:49:59.515 –> 00:50:01.594
– work on it and move on to the

1414
00:50:01.594 –> 00:50:02.954
– phase. Yeah. Yeah. And you don’t have to

1415
00:50:02.954 –> 00:50:04.715
– do all of phase one. Like, it doesn’t

1416
00:50:04.715 –> 00:50:07.355
– mean because there’s And I want work. Right?

1417
00:50:07.355 –> 00:50:09.035
– I want I wanna the whole thing starts.

1418
00:50:09.035 –> 00:50:11.289
– And I wanna just shout guys, the reason

1419
00:50:11.289 –> 00:50:13.449
– that it’s tough is for the guys, a

1420
00:50:13.449 –> 00:50:15.769
– lot of us are very defensive and we’re

1421
00:50:15.769 –> 00:50:17.609
– very especially the guys in my groups where

1422
00:50:17.609 –> 00:50:19.449
– our image matters and we our image is

1423
00:50:19.449 –> 00:50:20.829
– just being shredded

1424
00:50:21.289 –> 00:50:23.369
– in phase one. And so a lot of

1425
00:50:23.369 –> 00:50:23.869
– times,

1426
00:50:24.250 –> 00:50:26.355
– guys are just, I guess I’m projecting a

1427
00:50:26.355 –> 00:50:28.275
– little bit here, but I’m embarrassed at how

1428
00:50:28.275 –> 00:50:30.034
– I showed up in phase one. I just,

1429
00:50:30.034 –> 00:50:31.574
– I was juggling my image

1430
00:50:32.594 –> 00:50:34.275
– and what I did to her, and it’s

1431
00:50:34.275 –> 00:50:36.355
– just, like, so unfair to her. And I’m

1432
00:50:36.355 –> 00:50:38.195
– sure there’s no way she didn’t feel that.

1433
00:50:38.195 –> 00:50:40.309
– So what we’re saying here is it’s not

1434
00:50:40.309 –> 00:50:42.230
– shameful to go back and clean up some

1435
00:50:42.230 –> 00:50:44.329
– of that stuff in the past. Yeah. Absolutely.

1436
00:50:44.550 –> 00:50:44.710
– Right? Because you

1437
00:50:45.510 –> 00:50:46.010
– Absolutely.

1438
00:50:46.390 –> 00:50:47.690
– Guys, it’s the crisis.

1439
00:50:48.309 –> 00:50:50.150
– How in the heck did you guys do

1440
00:50:50.150 –> 00:50:52.630
– stage one and two well? Like, we’re all

1441
00:50:52.630 –> 00:50:54.525
– saying there’s no way you did it well.

1442
00:50:54.525 –> 00:50:56.204
– No way. Yeah. Right. And I think it’s

1443
00:50:56.204 –> 00:50:57.964
– also important to know, like, this is what

1444
00:50:57.964 –> 00:51:00.684
– high performers do. Right? This last weekend, they

1445
00:51:00.684 –> 00:51:01.505
– had the PGA

1446
00:51:01.804 –> 00:51:03.964
– tour was here in Memphis. And one of

1447
00:51:03.964 –> 00:51:05.644
– my favorite things is whenever you go to

1448
00:51:05.644 –> 00:51:07.969
– a professional golf event, afterwards,

1449
00:51:08.269 –> 00:51:09.869
– those guys are on the range, and they

1450
00:51:09.869 –> 00:51:12.210
– are working on the basics of the basics.

1451
00:51:12.349 –> 00:51:14.670
– Right? They are back in phase one because

1452
00:51:14.670 –> 00:51:17.250
– something happened on Hole 18 where they went,

1453
00:51:17.389 –> 00:51:18.909
– I’m no longer as good as I thought

1454
00:51:18.909 –> 00:51:20.204
– I was. I gotta go back to the

1455
00:51:20.204 –> 00:51:22.605
– basics. Yeah. So well said. Okay for the

1456
00:51:22.605 –> 00:51:24.525
– process. Right? Yeah. Because that’s what we see

1457
00:51:24.525 –> 00:51:27.105
– constantly as we get to the higher echelons

1458
00:51:27.164 –> 00:51:29.405
– in our relationship. We recognize, oh, there’s some

1459
00:51:29.405 –> 00:51:31.805
– foundational work still left for us to do.

1460
00:51:31.805 –> 00:51:33.909
– Yeah. That’s okay. We go back, we do

1461
00:51:33.909 –> 00:51:35.590
– that work, and then we work our way

1462
00:51:35.590 –> 00:51:37.190
– back to those upper portions. And part of

1463
00:51:37.190 –> 00:51:38.730
– the reason we do so much psychoeducation

1464
00:51:39.110 –> 00:51:40.809
– with our clients and in our programs

1465
00:51:41.190 –> 00:51:42.409
– is so they can identify

1466
00:51:42.789 –> 00:51:43.190
– themselves

1467
00:51:43.590 –> 00:51:47.030
– Yeah. Those things really early on before it’s

1468
00:51:47.030 –> 00:51:48.965
– gone on for months or years and destroyed

1469
00:51:48.965 –> 00:51:50.905
– the relationship. Right? Yes. So they go,

1470
00:51:51.285 –> 00:51:53.844
– woah. I’m not I’m not showing up authentic

1471
00:51:53.844 –> 00:51:56.485
– anymore. Yes. I I’m struggling with awareness today,

1472
00:51:56.485 –> 00:51:57.925
– and I know I was, so I can

1473
00:51:57.925 –> 00:51:59.144
– deal with it right now.

1474
00:51:59.820 –> 00:52:01.820
– Yes. Yes. Well, and I think and I

1475
00:52:01.820 –> 00:52:03.739
– was beating up on the guys. The women

1476
00:52:03.739 –> 00:52:05.660
– can get pretty nasty too, and so it’s

1477
00:52:05.660 –> 00:52:07.180
– not it’s nice to go back to that

1478
00:52:07.180 –> 00:52:08.160
– phase one when

1479
00:52:08.940 –> 00:52:11.180
– that anger, it’s gone, and we can try

1480
00:52:11.180 –> 00:52:11.835
– it again.

1481
00:52:12.155 –> 00:52:13.454
– So final question,

1482
00:52:13.835 –> 00:52:16.635
– is November full, or is there some room

1483
00:52:16.635 –> 00:52:18.315
– for the people? I am hesitant to bring

1484
00:52:18.315 –> 00:52:19.514
– it up because I don’t wanna bring it

1485
00:52:19.514 –> 00:52:20.815
– up if there’s no space.

1486
00:52:21.195 –> 00:52:23.195
– Yeah. For our retreat. Yeah. We do actually

1487
00:52:23.195 –> 00:52:24.175
– have some space.

1488
00:52:24.554 –> 00:52:27.114
– It’s gonna be amazing. And we created this

1489
00:52:27.114 –> 00:52:29.389
– retreat really for couples who are kind of

1490
00:52:29.389 –> 00:52:31.389
– in that third phase. Right? They’ve done some

1491
00:52:31.389 –> 00:52:33.469
– work of restoration, but they’re really ready to

1492
00:52:33.469 –> 00:52:35.650
– thrive. And they’re going, how do we

1493
00:52:36.349 –> 00:52:37.409
– really reunite

1494
00:52:37.710 –> 00:52:38.909
– and have those experiences?

1495
00:52:39.309 –> 00:52:41.789
– That new identity as a couple that we’re

1496
00:52:41.789 –> 00:52:44.105
– both excited about the rest of our life.

1497
00:52:44.105 –> 00:52:46.184
– Right? I want I’m looking forward to being

1498
00:52:46.184 –> 00:52:47.945
– in this relationship. And then so talking about

1499
00:52:48.105 –> 00:52:50.105
– I totally butchered that because the audience is

1500
00:52:50.105 –> 00:52:52.344
– probably like, what’s happening in November? Can you

1501
00:52:52.344 –> 00:52:54.505
– guys speak it real quick? Sorry. I totally

1502
00:52:54.505 –> 00:52:56.130
– lost. Yeah. So So we’ve got a retreat.

1503
00:52:56.130 –> 00:52:57.650
– It’s actually the end of October. It’s the

1504
00:52:57.809 –> 00:52:59.809
– Oh, go ahead. Week of October. Week end

1505
00:52:59.809 –> 00:53:01.889
– of October. Be in Georgia in a beautiful

1506
00:53:01.889 –> 00:53:04.690
– location, the Wind Shaped Conference Center in Rome,

1507
00:53:04.690 –> 00:53:06.449
– Georgia. And what we do is we gather

1508
00:53:06.449 –> 00:53:09.045
– recovery couples. Mhmm. And we go for the

1509
00:53:09.045 –> 00:53:11.204
– purpose of renewal. This is not a couple’s

1510
00:53:11.204 –> 00:53:12.804
– intensive, so we tell people all the time,

1511
00:53:12.804 –> 00:53:14.804
– like, this is not early Don’t bring your

1512
00:53:14.804 –> 00:53:17.925
– disclosure document. There’s no polygrapher in Room 4.

1513
00:53:17.925 –> 00:53:21.250
– No. This is renewal. This is us coming

1514
00:53:21.250 –> 00:53:23.989
– together and really kind of consecrating our relationship

1515
00:53:24.130 –> 00:53:26.610
– saying Yeah. We care about this thing, and

1516
00:53:26.610 –> 00:53:27.989
– we are fully committed

1517
00:53:28.610 –> 00:53:30.690
– to the work of making it as strong

1518
00:53:30.690 –> 00:53:33.170
– as possible. Yeah. And we do that through

1519
00:53:33.170 –> 00:53:34.150
– different activities,

1520
00:53:34.610 –> 00:53:37.214
– but just getting away, being together. Yeah. But

1521
00:53:37.214 –> 00:53:39.614
– also being around other couples who are doing

1522
00:53:39.614 –> 00:53:41.554
– this work that are on the journey.

1523
00:53:42.094 –> 00:53:43.855
– Yeah, so well said. And then for those

1524
00:53:43.855 –> 00:53:46.594
– who maybe aren’t ready for

1525
00:53:47.135 –> 00:53:48.594
– that phase three work,

1526
00:53:48.894 –> 00:53:50.514
– I’m sure there’s a ton of them listening.

1527
00:53:50.660 –> 00:53:51.640
– How do they participate

1528
00:53:51.940 –> 00:53:54.180
– in the Rave Smith model? How do they

1529
00:53:54.180 –> 00:53:56.099
– walk through these phases? Do you guys have

1530
00:53:56.099 –> 00:53:58.280
– coaches, programs? Talk a little bit about that.

1531
00:53:58.420 –> 00:54:00.900
– Yeah. We have we do individual coaching, and

1532
00:54:00.900 –> 00:54:02.820
– that’s usually for that kind of phase one

1533
00:54:02.820 –> 00:54:04.680
– recovery, you know, safety stabilization.

1534
00:54:05.344 –> 00:54:08.065
– We see couples individually. For couples ready to

1535
00:54:08.065 –> 00:54:09.924
– kind of enter into that restoration

1536
00:54:10.304 –> 00:54:13.105
– phase, we actually have a group couples group

1537
00:54:13.105 –> 00:54:15.824
– program that’s about a year long that helps

1538
00:54:15.824 –> 00:54:18.304
– couples really lean into this. Right? We talked

1539
00:54:18.304 –> 00:54:20.484
– about how this can’t be a short phase.

1540
00:54:20.750 –> 00:54:22.829
– Couples really have to learn how to do

1541
00:54:22.829 –> 00:54:23.329
– relationship

1542
00:54:23.789 –> 00:54:26.429
– differently, and so they have a full year

1543
00:54:26.429 –> 00:54:28.750
– of actually learning these things, learning how to

1544
00:54:28.750 –> 00:54:30.530
– incorporate them into the relationship

1545
00:54:31.069 –> 00:54:33.230
– to get through restoration, to get to that

1546
00:54:33.230 –> 00:54:35.869
– place of being renewed and feeling really excited

1547
00:54:35.869 –> 00:54:37.864
– about the relationship. And it’s really fun. We

1548
00:54:37.864 –> 00:54:39.545
– get to see these couples go through this

1549
00:54:39.545 –> 00:54:42.585
– program. They graduate telling us these amazing stories

1550
00:54:42.585 –> 00:54:44.364
– of, like, we see playfulness

1551
00:54:44.664 –> 00:54:47.005
– back in our relationship. Yeah. We see ourselves

1552
00:54:47.065 –> 00:54:49.864
– serving together. We see this just best version

1553
00:54:49.864 –> 00:54:51.659
– of who we are kind of coming back

1554
00:54:51.819 –> 00:54:52.639
– into our marriage,

1555
00:54:53.019 –> 00:54:55.099
– and it’s so exciting to see couples get

1556
00:54:55.099 –> 00:54:57.260
– there on that journey and know that their

1557
00:54:57.260 –> 00:54:59.579
– trajectory is so strong. Well, and you guys,

1558
00:54:59.579 –> 00:55:01.500
– thank you. I mean, just so everybody knows,

1559
00:55:01.500 –> 00:55:03.199
– the reason I so appreciate

1560
00:55:03.579 –> 00:55:05.019
– what the two of you have done in

1561
00:55:05.019 –> 00:55:06.079
– this space is

1562
00:55:06.534 –> 00:55:09.494
– I know putting rigid structure to mental health,

1563
00:55:09.494 –> 00:55:11.735
– it’s a tough thing for many because, you

1564
00:55:11.735 –> 00:55:13.094
– know, a lot of people think, Oh, there’s

1565
00:55:13.094 –> 00:55:13.835
– too many differences.

1566
00:55:14.295 –> 00:55:16.215
– There are, but I will tell you right

1567
00:55:16.215 –> 00:55:19.574
– now, with this and the betrayal dynamic, I

1568
00:55:19.574 –> 00:55:22.679
– mean, structure and just a road map. It

1569
00:55:22.679 –> 00:55:25.000
– is so needed. So thank you so much

1570
00:55:25.000 –> 00:55:25.500
– for

1571
00:55:25.800 –> 00:55:28.039
– putting words to this, putting structure to all

1572
00:55:28.039 –> 00:55:30.360
– of this because and even everybody understands, it’s

1573
00:55:30.360 –> 00:55:32.119
– still fluid. It’s not phase one, two, and

1574
00:55:32.119 –> 00:55:33.719
– three. There’s a lot of gray in between,

1575
00:55:33.719 –> 00:55:36.054
– and there’s times where your models does that.

1576
00:55:36.054 –> 00:55:37.735
– But I just I still appreciate how you

1577
00:55:37.735 –> 00:55:39.574
– guys have done that. I use the intimacy

1578
00:55:39.574 –> 00:55:41.974
– pyramid in all of our intensives at least

1579
00:55:41.974 –> 00:55:43.914
– once or twice. So thank you for pioneering

1580
00:55:44.135 –> 00:55:46.295
– such things and putting, again, just labels and

1581
00:55:46.295 –> 00:55:47.974
– words to things so that we know what

1582
00:55:47.974 –> 00:55:49.574
– we’re working toward because I just love that

1583
00:55:49.574 –> 00:55:51.170
– so much. But thank you guys for coming

1584
00:55:51.170 –> 00:55:53.089
– on today. I so much appreciate this. That

1585
00:55:53.089 –> 00:55:55.250
– was great. Yeah. Thanks so much for having

1586
00:55:55.250 –> 00:55:55.750
– us.

1587
00:55:57.170 –> 00:55:59.409
– Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1588
00:55:59.409 –> 00:56:01.170
– are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1589
00:56:01.170 –> 00:56:02.849
– and you’re looking for a recovery group full

1590
00:56:02.849 –> 00:56:06.045
– of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1591
00:56:06.045 –> 00:56:08.764
– We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1592
00:56:08.764 –> 00:56:10.144
– using four day retreats,

1593
00:56:10.445 –> 00:56:13.244
– weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1594
00:56:13.244 –> 00:56:15.485
– If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1595
00:56:15.485 –> 00:56:17.380
– save your marriage, go to our website and

1596
00:56:17.380 –> 00:56:19.699
– fill out an application. If you enjoyed this

1597
00:56:19.699 –> 00:56:21.940
– episode, please pass it along to a friend

1598
00:56:21.940 –> 00:56:23.860
– in recovery who would benefit from listening. It

1599
00:56:23.860 –> 00:56:25.619
– is my mission to get this information out

1600
00:56:25.619 –> 00:56:28.099
– to as many high achievers as possible, and

1601
00:56:28.099 –> 00:56:29.719
– I can’t do it without your help.