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– It’s just opportunistic, and that’s really all it

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– is. He looks like a a cheating asshole.

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– And when I came to terms with Jeremy

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– was that I I I was, and that

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– that was actually the the truth. I I

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– kept… It felt… I know we’re gonna talk

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– about this probably later, but, like, she did

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– not like me trying to pathologize it. It

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– felt… It just didn’t feel accurate to her.

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– It was finally when I was like, I

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– don’t know. I think I just wanted to

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– sleep with these chicks, and I did it.

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– Right? I mean, I was just I just

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– I just owned it. Like, I don’t know

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– what else to tell you. I think I

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– just I think I was just a kind

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– of

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– an asshole.

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– You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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– for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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– This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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– recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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– high achiever. I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder

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– of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for

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– high achieving men struggling with sex and porn

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– addiction. For more information about joining our group

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– or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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– And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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– Discovering the why behind your sex addiction is

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– important. Especially for the married guys listening to

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– this, your wife is gonna wanna know how

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– and why this happened. And in order to

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– come up with a effective treatment plan, you’re

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– gonna need to know how and why this

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– happened. But it can be a lot harder

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– than it sounds. And in this episode, Jeremy

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– and I explain why. Jeremy Mass, this is

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– the second time you’ve been on my show.

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– I was just on your show, what we

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– recorded last week.

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– And for those who know me know, I’m

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– very selective with who I refer patients to.

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– There’s just a lot on the line here.

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– I mean, your marriage, custody of your kids,

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– I mean, it’s a divorce. I mean, it’s

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– a really big, it’s a really big, what

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– this addiction can do to somebody’s life

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– is tremendous. And I am so selective of

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– where I refer people because

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– as my listeners know, it’s all over the

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– place. I mean this field, it’s very… I

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– mean a lot of advice actually contradicts

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– advice you’ll hear from somebody else, right? And

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– so,

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– a lot of psychoeducation

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– will even contradict.

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– Can you imagine the frustration

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– of being a betrayed partner or being a

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– guy in recovery,

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– and to hear someone literally cite what sounds

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– like scientific fact, only to hear the opposing

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– scientific fact. I’m sure maybe some of that

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– will come up in this episode if we’re

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– talking about the why. But let’s dive right

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– in Jeremy. What we wanna talk about today

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– is that that question that needs to be

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– answered and a question that, I don’t know

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– if there’s a single guy in recovery who

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– who’s married, who’s gotten away with this. It’s

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– the,

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– why did this happen? Why did you do

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– this? I need to understand. I need to

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– understand, you know, how could you love me

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– and still do the things that you did?

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– I need I need to know why this

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– happened. And it’s an important question to answer

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– for two reasons. One, I don’t think you

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– can be in good recovery if you if

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– you don’t know how to answer that question.

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– And then I also don’t know if you

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– can

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– save your marriage if you can’t answer that

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– question. Because it is, you know, as a

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– as a betrayed partner, I do need to

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– know why. But as we all know, the

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– why is a is a very loaded question,

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– because I think there’s probably a 150 different

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– ways to answer that. And so we’re not

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– gonna we’re not gonna be able to get

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– into all 150 today. But I think what

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– Jeremy and I do really well every time

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– we talk is I think we can empathize

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– and help the listeners

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– understand, yes, there’s infinite ways to answer this.

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– And at the same time, how do we

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– manage that? How do we manage that and

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– and use it in our recovery for, productively

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– and also bring it into our marriage to

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– kinda rebuild trust? Jeremy, do you wanna speak

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– on that before we dive into the different

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– directions? What’s your what’s your message to the

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– listeners around the why question?

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– First of all, really appreciate you having me

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– back, Roland. It’s always good to be with

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– you.

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– The why question is so common. Right? We

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– hear it over and over and over again.

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– More specifically,

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– I hear it most often when either the

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– guys that I’m working with or betrayed partners

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– early on recovery,

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– they asked me because,

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– they want to know

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– with some degree of certainty that this will

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– never happen again. I cannot act out again

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– because if I do, I’m going to lose

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– my marriage. The partners, understandably,

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– feeling betrayed, feeling

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– unimaginably

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– hurt,

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– want some certitude with regard to their partner’s

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– behavior. Right? I need to know that he’s

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– not gonna act out again because

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– that

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– possibility that he’s going to relapse or have

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– a slip, I don’t know that I can

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– take that again, which is perfectly understandable.

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– So I understand where this question is coming

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– from, and I have great compassion for

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– the pain that the question is speaking to.

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– The challenges here are that while the question

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– is driven out of a partner’s trauma and

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– their

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– fervent desire not to reexperience that kind of

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– pain again,

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– the bad news is is that

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– that kind of certainty

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– is not going to exist. Yeah. It’s just

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– not going to be possible.

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– And that is a very difficult pill for,

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– most betrayed partners to swallow. And so I

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– I always share that

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– with a a a great deal of trepidation

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– because

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– partners then need to find other ways of

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– giving themselves

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– or empowering themselves to feel safety. Well, given

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– that it’s not a 100%

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– guarantee

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– that the guy that I’m choosing to stay

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– with

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– is going to

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– act out or rather avoid the possibility of

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– a slip or relapse, what can I do

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– to take care of myself? What can I

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– do to make myself feel safe in this

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– relationship? How can I give myself some boundaries

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– while also finding some other ways right now

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– of promoting and creating trust between us?

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– Yeah. And and what you said there, I

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– hope you ever heard that. Right? Like, yes.

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– It’s important. You guys have heard the Rolandism

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– that I always say. Right? You can’t recover

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– unless you know what you’re recovering from. Right?

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– And and so, yes, the why the why

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– is how you build that recovery plan. But

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– but from the partner standpoint, you know, I

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– I hope everybody heard that. Right? It’s like

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– knowing the why won’t deliver the safety

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– that you’re hoping it will. It’s great information

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– and I do think the nervous system wants

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– to know why. Yeah, you know, part of

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– the human brain is we wanna make sense

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– of how these things happen to us. How

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– does this happen? Right? And the brain wants

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– to know this because yeah, it doesn’t want

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– it to happen again. How can I not

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– be fooled again? How can

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– I, if this happens, how can I catch

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– him sooner? Right? Etcetera, etcetera. Right? And so,

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– it is important and to your point, I

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– think if anything the more I knew about

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– my addiction, the less safe my wife felt

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– because I think she started to understand,

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– holy smokes,

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– it’s not one thing. It’s this, it’s a

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– little bit of that, it’s this too, it’s

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– more so that. Oh shoot, it’s actually a

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– lot of this. He does that every day

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– at work.

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– So do I need to have him quit

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– his career because of the right… I mean,

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– I think that was what happened was my

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– wife really started to realize,

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– it’s really coming at all angles

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– and the why did not actually provide her

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– any sort of safety. Now, again, I’m not

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– saying that we don’t need it. Now now

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– I want us both to answer this question

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– before we dive into this why question, the

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– dynamics of it. I mean, the question I

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– wanna first have us both kind of answer

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– to the audience is, why is it so

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– hard to

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– tell somebody your why? Why why are there

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– hundreds of angles to come at this? Right?

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– Jeremy, you go first. Like, why is this

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– so far from a linear black and white

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– answer? Why is this probably one of the

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– greatest, vaguest, murkiest answers there is in recovery?

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– That is a fantastic question.

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– First of all, I think there’s a myth

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– out there that addiction has only one root,

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– right? We hear this all the time. If

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– I could just get to the root of

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– my addiction as if this is a singular

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– that we’re dealing with here. But the truth

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– is

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– is that addiction is… And sexually compulsive behaviors

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– are incredibly complex.

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– Just like a medical problem, it has many

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– different causes,

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– so too do compulsive sexual behaviors and and

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– sexual addiction, porn and robbery addiction.

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– There’s there’s no single root to this. It

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– has biological causes.

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– It may have psychological or emotional causes,

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– physiological causes, spiritual… I think of it as

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– a as a diamond.

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– Right? And there are many different ways to

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– look into that diamond, many different facets that

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– are

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– true

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– of that diamond, and that we need to

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– understand

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– the complexity of that diamond in order to

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– truly understand the the… What the causes are

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– and how they interact with each other. I’ll

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– just give a little prime example of this.

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– One thing that we know with the SDI

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– and the SAST is some of the questions

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– we… What we start to figure out is

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– and it’s been proven across the board. We

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– see higher scores on the sex addiction questionnaire

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– from people in religious, communities. Right? It’s been

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– well proven and well documented. Right? So the

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– only reason I bring that up is, here’s

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– this person of faith and it’s almost like

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– the the more strict and kind of involved

250
00:08:52.485 –> 00:08:54.629
– your religion is, what we find is actually

251
00:08:54.629 –> 00:08:57.029
– men struggle with this more and they have

252
00:08:57.029 –> 00:08:59.190
– more… They score higher on the SAST. Right?

253
00:08:59.190 –> 00:09:01.029
– They score higher on the SDI. So my

254
00:09:01.029 –> 00:09:03.029
– my point of bringing that up is here

255
00:09:03.029 –> 00:09:04.789
– here you are as a betrayed partner. Right?

256
00:09:04.789 –> 00:09:06.570
– And in your head, it’s like, oh, you’re

257
00:09:06.745 –> 00:09:09.305
– you stopped going to Bible study or you

258
00:09:09.305 –> 00:09:10.825
– did, you know, and and and in our

259
00:09:10.825 –> 00:09:13.165
– head, right, we think, okay, it’s this linear

260
00:09:13.304 –> 00:09:15.785
– thing. But what we’re finding is, yeah, actually

261
00:09:15.785 –> 00:09:18.745
– that amplifies the shame and amplifies the need

262
00:09:18.745 –> 00:09:20.845
– for deceit and the need for the secrecy.

263
00:09:21.049 –> 00:09:22.169
– Right? So I just wanted to plug that

264
00:09:22.169 –> 00:09:24.409
– little example in there because it just… It

265
00:09:24.409 –> 00:09:26.329
– shows you, okay. Yeah. He has all this

266
00:09:26.329 –> 00:09:28.509
– other stuff that meets the traditional

267
00:09:29.049 –> 00:09:31.529
– kind of sex addiction pathway. But then at…

268
00:09:31.529 –> 00:09:33.449
– My my point is too, as we add

269
00:09:33.449 –> 00:09:34.509
– in these other layers,

270
00:09:34.884 –> 00:09:37.225
– social cultural layers, spiritual layers, they

271
00:09:37.605 –> 00:09:40.004
– can complicate things. It’s not always gonna complicate

272
00:09:40.004 –> 00:09:41.204
– things, but they can’t. Right? And that’s the

273
00:09:41.204 –> 00:09:42.565
– point. That’s the reason… I just wanted to

274
00:09:42.565 –> 00:09:44.964
– slip that in there as one little example.

275
00:09:44.964 –> 00:09:46.324
– Is that… Was it… Did I do a

276
00:09:46.324 –> 00:09:48.730
– good job there, Jeremy? Just showing, like, the

277
00:09:48.730 –> 00:09:50.889
– complexity of this. Right? Here you add your

278
00:09:50.889 –> 00:09:52.490
– faith in there and your faith is is

279
00:09:52.490 –> 00:09:54.490
– is your faith. Right? It’s the thing you

280
00:09:54.490 –> 00:09:56.250
– lean on. Right? And for many people, it’s

281
00:09:56.250 –> 00:09:58.269
– the cornerstone of of of all their existence.

282
00:09:58.410 –> 00:09:59.710
– But what we show is,

283
00:10:00.090 –> 00:10:02.654
– that can actually feed into, statistically, that can

284
00:10:02.654 –> 00:10:05.455
– feed into the reason to deceive your your

285
00:10:05.455 –> 00:10:06.835
– partner. Oh, exactly.

286
00:10:07.375 –> 00:10:09.615
– Growing up with… I’m no stranger to sexual

287
00:10:09.615 –> 00:10:11.615
– shame having grown up in a religious household

288
00:10:11.615 –> 00:10:13.394
– myself. I understand that intimately.

289
00:10:14.230 –> 00:10:16.790
– Sexual shame can distort how we think about

290
00:10:16.790 –> 00:10:19.429
– and perceive our sexual behaviors. I I think

291
00:10:19.429 –> 00:10:21.750
– you’re absolutely right. It it can distort the

292
00:10:21.750 –> 00:10:24.410
– results on an assessment like the SDI disaster.

293
00:10:25.509 –> 00:10:27.850
– So one of the layers here is

294
00:10:28.230 –> 00:10:29.610
– the cultural and

295
00:10:29.955 –> 00:10:31.175
– religious components

296
00:10:31.795 –> 00:10:33.795
– of the messages that we get about our

297
00:10:33.795 –> 00:10:35.975
– sexuality, what it means to be a man,

298
00:10:36.434 –> 00:10:38.115
– what it means to be, in this case,

299
00:10:38.115 –> 00:10:40.934
– a man of faith, and the messages and

300
00:10:41.075 –> 00:10:43.815
– sexual identity that we come to form

301
00:10:44.319 –> 00:10:46.159
– because of those experiences that we’ve had, for

302
00:10:46.159 –> 00:10:48.319
– example, growing up in a religious household. And

303
00:10:48.319 –> 00:10:50.079
– again, this isn’t gonna be a episode about

304
00:10:50.079 –> 00:10:51.519
– religion. I just wanted to plug that one

305
00:10:51.519 –> 00:10:53.699
– example in early for listeners just to show

306
00:10:54.240 –> 00:10:56.799
– why answering the why question is actually quite

307
00:10:56.799 –> 00:10:59.664
– more complicated because you’re, you know, depending on

308
00:10:59.664 –> 00:11:01.825
– how the religion was framed to you as

309
00:11:01.825 –> 00:11:03.584
– a young boy or whoever taught it to

310
00:11:03.584 –> 00:11:05.424
– you. I’m not even gonna say it different

311
00:11:05.424 –> 00:11:07.105
– than that. How you perceived it. Right? Kind

312
00:11:07.105 –> 00:11:08.784
– of what you said Jeremy, right? If if

313
00:11:08.784 –> 00:11:10.784
– a man of faith doesn’t do this, there

314
00:11:10.784 –> 00:11:12.704
– is now more skin in the game of

315
00:11:12.704 –> 00:11:15.509
– of hiding it, shaming it, stuffing it down,

316
00:11:15.509 –> 00:11:17.350
– ignoring it. Right? Because it’s like this is

317
00:11:17.350 –> 00:11:19.430
– conflicts with my faith. Right? So so in

318
00:11:19.430 –> 00:11:21.370
– in many ways, the faith is the driver,

319
00:11:21.590 –> 00:11:24.090
– but then it’s the reaction to it actually

320
00:11:24.149 –> 00:11:26.324
– facilitates the the deception. Right? Even though we

321
00:11:26.324 –> 00:11:27.605
– would think it would be doing the opposite.

322
00:11:27.605 –> 00:11:29.125
– Right? Because Right. You know, what we know

323
00:11:29.125 –> 00:11:31.304
– about faith is it never it never encourages

324
00:11:31.365 –> 00:11:33.924
– lying and deceiving others. Right? And being not

325
00:11:33.924 –> 00:11:35.845
– true to yourself. Right? I’ll answer that question

326
00:11:35.845 –> 00:11:37.365
– too. And then I wanna dive into the

327
00:11:37.365 –> 00:11:39.204
– various whys and and kind of how these

328
00:11:39.204 –> 00:11:40.105
– partners can,

329
00:11:40.899 –> 00:11:43.139
– and couples can start to navigate this because

330
00:11:43.139 –> 00:11:44.980
– it is… It’s it’s a very important question

331
00:11:44.980 –> 00:11:46.980
– and it’s huge. To me, Jeremy, my answer

332
00:11:46.980 –> 00:11:48.340
– to that question in terms of why it’s

333
00:11:48.340 –> 00:11:51.379
– hard to to narrow down a why, to

334
00:11:51.379 –> 00:11:53.240
– me, I think it’s because humans,

335
00:11:53.779 –> 00:11:55.355
– we care about a lot of things. We

336
00:11:55.355 –> 00:11:58.074
– care about fitting in. We care about we

337
00:11:58.074 –> 00:12:00.475
– care about being our image and our kind

338
00:12:00.475 –> 00:12:02.634
– of social status of where we are in

339
00:12:02.634 –> 00:12:04.714
– the community if we wanna be influential or

340
00:12:04.714 –> 00:12:06.235
– if we want to, you know, who our

341
00:12:06.235 –> 00:12:07.834
– tribe of people are that we wanna belong

342
00:12:07.834 –> 00:12:10.509
– with. We care about security, safety. We care

343
00:12:10.509 –> 00:12:13.009
– about being admired, appreciated,

344
00:12:13.389 –> 00:12:16.850
– and respected. We care about connection, belonging, romance,

345
00:12:16.909 –> 00:12:17.409
– intimacy.

346
00:12:17.950 –> 00:12:20.865
– We also care about novelty and excitement, and

347
00:12:20.865 –> 00:12:23.745
– we like to explore. And there’s elements of

348
00:12:23.745 –> 00:12:26.165
– kind of breaking the rules that actually are…

349
00:12:26.625 –> 00:12:28.225
– Is a very human thing to do. Right?

350
00:12:28.225 –> 00:12:31.044
– Pushing limits, testing limits. Right? Proving your agency.

351
00:12:31.184 –> 00:12:33.585
– Right? Expressing oneself. Right? So the the point

352
00:12:33.585 –> 00:12:35.610
– is a human is… I just named, I

353
00:12:35.610 –> 00:12:37.610
– I don’t know, 20 things. There is another

354
00:12:37.610 –> 00:12:39.529
– four, five, six, seven hundred things that I

355
00:12:39.529 –> 00:12:41.450
– could have said about humans. They are very

356
00:12:41.450 –> 00:12:43.049
– complex and I would say they are not

357
00:12:43.049 –> 00:12:44.730
– all the same. So while I, like for

358
00:12:44.730 –> 00:12:45.870
– me, I love novelty.

359
00:12:46.409 –> 00:12:48.809
– I love novelty. I can never, I mean

360
00:12:48.809 –> 00:12:51.144
– I cannot sit still. I just love exploring

361
00:12:51.144 –> 00:12:53.945
– and I love expressing myself. Right? But somebody

362
00:12:53.945 –> 00:12:55.945
– else, they might not love novelty as much.

363
00:12:55.945 –> 00:12:58.345
– They actually like might might like routine and

364
00:12:58.345 –> 00:13:00.825
– comfort and consistency. Right? My wife is kinda

365
00:13:00.825 –> 00:13:02.840
– like that. Right? And so here we are,

366
00:13:02.840 –> 00:13:05.639
– yes, we’re both homo sapiens, but I… How

367
00:13:05.639 –> 00:13:07.240
– I operate in the world and the things

368
00:13:07.240 –> 00:13:09.240
– I value are very, very different. Right? For

369
00:13:09.240 –> 00:13:10.940
– her, it’s a lot of consistency

370
00:13:11.639 –> 00:13:14.360
– and predictability. For me, predictability is my worst

371
00:13:14.360 –> 00:13:16.279
– nightmare. Right? If I know what next year’s

372
00:13:16.279 –> 00:13:18.075
– is gonna be like, I’m gonna do everything

373
00:13:18.075 –> 00:13:19.834
– in my power to make it not not

374
00:13:19.834 –> 00:13:21.514
– go that way because it it it bores

375
00:13:21.514 –> 00:13:23.355
– me. Right? So the point is humans are

376
00:13:23.355 –> 00:13:25.355
– complex and so I think when we add

377
00:13:25.355 –> 00:13:27.674
– something as as… One more thing I wanna

378
00:13:27.674 –> 00:13:29.054
– add in there too Jeremy is

379
00:13:29.370 –> 00:13:30.110
– sex is

380
00:13:30.570 –> 00:13:32.669
– complex. There’s sex appeal, there’s there’s

381
00:13:33.529 –> 00:13:35.070
– there’s arousal and eroticism,

382
00:13:35.850 –> 00:13:36.350
– there’s

383
00:13:36.809 –> 00:13:37.309
– connection.

384
00:13:37.769 –> 00:13:39.370
– Right? And I think this field often says

385
00:13:39.370 –> 00:13:41.450
– like, oh, no, no, sex needs… None of

386
00:13:41.450 –> 00:13:43.789
– that other stuff matters. It’s only about connection

387
00:13:44.169 –> 00:13:44.669
– and

388
00:13:45.175 –> 00:13:47.735
– and being presently connected. That’s just not true.

389
00:13:47.735 –> 00:13:50.695
– There is sex appeal, attraction, erotic, keen… I

390
00:13:50.695 –> 00:13:53.014
– mean, there’s a lot of things involved in

391
00:13:53.014 –> 00:13:55.495
– sex that that add layers to this. And

392
00:13:55.495 –> 00:13:57.254
– I think it’s naive to just say, oh,

393
00:13:57.254 –> 00:13:58.695
– you need to have… You need to learn

394
00:13:58.695 –> 00:14:00.919
– how to have connection and wanna have connected

395
00:14:00.919 –> 00:14:02.839
– sex. That’s the only sex that you can

396
00:14:02.839 –> 00:14:05.000
– want and think about and everything else is

397
00:14:05.000 –> 00:14:06.600
– fantasy and you need to check that in

398
00:14:06.600 –> 00:14:08.440
– because that’s a violation of your sobriety. I

399
00:14:08.440 –> 00:14:09.480
– think we need to be careful with that

400
00:14:09.480 –> 00:14:12.600
– because again, attraction, sex appeal, all those things

401
00:14:12.600 –> 00:14:14.184
– are very human as well. I just wanted

402
00:14:14.184 –> 00:14:15.304
– to put that. I think that’s why it’s

403
00:14:15.304 –> 00:14:16.845
– really hard to just nail down

404
00:14:17.704 –> 00:14:20.024
– a hard and fast why this happened. Because

405
00:14:20.024 –> 00:14:22.184
– the truth is, kinda like Jeremy said, there’s

406
00:14:22.184 –> 00:14:25.144
– a lot of very real human things that

407
00:14:25.144 –> 00:14:26.345
– are being used in this. And I think

408
00:14:26.345 –> 00:14:28.365
– that’s also why the DSM and

409
00:14:28.799 –> 00:14:31.440
– the APEO, we’ve really been struggling with sex

410
00:14:31.440 –> 00:14:33.200
– addiction as a term. They actually have not

411
00:14:33.200 –> 00:14:35.759
– accepted that term because what we haven’t determined

412
00:14:35.759 –> 00:14:37.379
– is, are they addicted to sex?

413
00:14:37.759 –> 00:14:41.059
– Right? Or are they just violating marital contracts?

414
00:14:41.195 –> 00:14:42.794
– Right? Because that is, you know, that’s different

415
00:14:42.794 –> 00:14:44.955
– than addiction, right? And so we’re trying to

416
00:14:44.955 –> 00:14:46.714
– kind of really determine that. So where do

417
00:14:46.714 –> 00:14:48.634
– you wanna start Jeremy on this concept of

418
00:14:48.634 –> 00:14:51.115
– why? Let’s take listeners, you know, for the

419
00:14:51.115 –> 00:14:52.554
– next thirty minutes, let’s take them on a

420
00:14:52.554 –> 00:14:53.054
– journey

421
00:14:53.610 –> 00:14:55.929
– through what a why is. And let’s just

422
00:14:55.929 –> 00:14:57.289
– kinda go bounce and forth. And I mean,

423
00:14:57.289 –> 00:14:59.230
– I know thirty minutes isn’t that much time

424
00:14:59.450 –> 00:15:01.549
– to cover the ground we wanna cover, but

425
00:15:01.690 –> 00:15:03.289
– where do we start, Jeremy? Where do we

426
00:15:03.289 –> 00:15:04.730
– go with this whole why thing and how

427
00:15:04.730 –> 00:15:06.649
– do we help couples make sense of all

428
00:15:06.649 –> 00:15:07.149
– this?

429
00:15:07.795 –> 00:15:10.274
– Oh, boy. Yeah. So, you know, whenever I

430
00:15:10.274 –> 00:15:12.195
– start with the why question with any with

431
00:15:12.195 –> 00:15:14.134
– any one that I’m talking with,

432
00:15:14.514 –> 00:15:16.514
– first of all, I I always… And and

433
00:15:16.514 –> 00:15:17.795
– this goes back to some of the points

434
00:15:17.795 –> 00:15:19.795
– we made earlier. I wanna tell them that

435
00:15:19.795 –> 00:15:21.394
– first of all, that because they’re probably early

436
00:15:21.394 –> 00:15:23.756
– on in recovery and we’re working on a

437
00:15:23.756 –> 00:15:26.759
– beginning of a hypothesis as to why this

438
00:15:26.759 –> 00:15:29.589
– happened. I always share with them, look. I

439
00:15:29.589 –> 00:15:31.929
– want you to empathize with your partner

440
00:15:32.309 –> 00:15:34.089
– when you share this with them because

441
00:15:34.495 –> 00:15:35.235
– it may

442
00:15:35.695 –> 00:15:37.695
– sound… Because you both are early on recovery,

443
00:15:37.695 –> 00:15:38.995
– it’s gonna sound like

444
00:15:39.535 –> 00:15:40.035
– you’re

445
00:15:40.495 –> 00:15:42.915
– providing some kind of an excuse or justification,

446
00:15:43.295 –> 00:15:46.014
– which you’re not. Recognizing for her that this

447
00:15:46.014 –> 00:15:48.195
– is a trauma driven question,

448
00:15:49.240 –> 00:15:50.460
– that she’s asking

449
00:15:50.920 –> 00:15:53.160
– this question and asking you to figure it

450
00:15:53.160 –> 00:15:56.200
– out because she wants some reassurance from you

451
00:15:56.200 –> 00:15:58.200
– that this isn’t gonna happen again. That’s what

452
00:15:58.200 –> 00:15:59.740
– you need to empathize with.

453
00:16:00.279 –> 00:16:02.774
– Later down the line, k, when when she’s

454
00:16:02.835 –> 00:16:04.915
– able… If everything goes well in recovery, if

455
00:16:04.915 –> 00:16:06.934
– she’s able to have some empathy for you,

456
00:16:06.995 –> 00:16:08.514
– this is gonna start to land in her

457
00:16:08.514 –> 00:16:10.535
– differently. Okay? But for right now,

458
00:16:10.915 –> 00:16:13.475
– I want you to practice empathy first whenever

459
00:16:13.475 –> 00:16:15.554
– you share anything about what we talk about.

460
00:16:15.554 –> 00:16:17.235
– And I and I share that on the

461
00:16:17.235 –> 00:16:18.350
– show with you here

462
00:16:18.649 –> 00:16:19.710
– because I don’t

463
00:16:20.409 –> 00:16:22.330
– want folks who are listening, you know, portraying

464
00:16:22.330 –> 00:16:24.730
– partners. I don’t want them to share their

465
00:16:24.730 –> 00:16:27.529
– why out of this expectation that somehow that

466
00:16:27.529 –> 00:16:29.384
– she’s gonna magically calm down. Right?

467
00:16:30.105 –> 00:16:31.625
– I would say it goes the opposite. Wouldn’t

468
00:16:31.625 –> 00:16:33.144
– you? I mean, because it does count in

469
00:16:33.144 –> 00:16:35.465
– the first six months. It does reek of

470
00:16:35.465 –> 00:16:37.544
– excuses. Does it not? Mhmm. Oh, yeah. First

471
00:16:37.544 –> 00:16:39.965
– six months. Even the first year. So,

472
00:16:40.424 –> 00:16:42.585
– I just wanna share that caveat before we,

473
00:16:42.745 –> 00:16:43.884
– really dive in here.

474
00:16:44.330 –> 00:16:46.029
– The way I think about the why

475
00:16:47.210 –> 00:16:49.690
– is through a couple of different main categories.

476
00:16:49.690 –> 00:16:51.850
– Let me just, break these down here. First

477
00:16:51.850 –> 00:16:54.409
– of all, I think about any compulsive sexual

478
00:16:54.409 –> 00:16:55.870
– behavior as driven

479
00:16:56.250 –> 00:16:57.070
– by opportunity.

480
00:16:57.894 –> 00:17:00.075
– Okay. We have to have the opportunity

481
00:17:00.534 –> 00:17:03.115
– to act out, and this is accounting for

482
00:17:03.414 –> 00:17:04.954
– situational and environmental

483
00:17:05.255 –> 00:17:05.755
– factors.

484
00:17:06.535 –> 00:17:08.315
– Maybe you grew up in a household

485
00:17:08.855 –> 00:17:11.515
– where, you had unrestricted access to the Internet.

486
00:17:11.640 –> 00:17:14.119
– K. Or maybe you had opportunity to act

487
00:17:14.119 –> 00:17:16.519
– out because you were taking frequent business trips,

488
00:17:16.519 –> 00:17:19.019
– whatever it might be. K. There is opportunity

489
00:17:19.160 –> 00:17:20.059
– that you had

490
00:17:20.599 –> 00:17:21.099
– situationally,

491
00:17:21.480 –> 00:17:21.980
– circumstantially

492
00:17:22.359 –> 00:17:24.700
– that made you more vulnerable to

493
00:17:25.105 –> 00:17:28.005
– acting out compulsively in some way. Okay? So

494
00:17:28.065 –> 00:17:30.244
– that is driven by your environment.

495
00:17:30.865 –> 00:17:33.664
– Okay? And those external cues are really important

496
00:17:33.664 –> 00:17:35.365
– because they interact with

497
00:17:35.825 –> 00:17:36.724
– internal cues,

498
00:17:37.410 –> 00:17:40.950
– feelings, internal states, your thinking patterns. K?

499
00:17:41.490 –> 00:17:43.330
– So that’s important. K? I’ll get to that

500
00:17:43.330 –> 00:17:44.630
– in just a second. But

501
00:17:45.009 –> 00:17:45.509
– the

502
00:17:46.130 –> 00:17:48.850
– environmental cues are really important to become aware

503
00:17:48.850 –> 00:17:51.250
– of and learning more about how they interact

504
00:17:51.250 –> 00:17:54.684
– with your compulsive behaviors, that’s really important. K?

505
00:17:54.825 –> 00:17:56.285
– They’re not enough to explain

506
00:17:57.705 –> 00:18:00.105
– behavior on their own, but the nature of

507
00:18:00.105 –> 00:18:00.605
– addiction

508
00:18:01.065 –> 00:18:03.785
– is that they are behaviorally reinforced. Mhmm. So

509
00:18:03.785 –> 00:18:06.664
– whatever behavior we engage in repeatedly, we’re gonna

510
00:18:06.664 –> 00:18:09.440
– reinforce that behavior, and that’s going to, over

511
00:18:09.440 –> 00:18:11.539
– time, that’s gonna change our neurochemistry.

512
00:18:12.400 –> 00:18:14.960
– Okay? Our reward system in our brains are

513
00:18:14.960 –> 00:18:17.220
– going to respond to and reinforce

514
00:18:17.599 –> 00:18:21.044
– whatever we find enjoyable or, pleasurable. We’re gonna

515
00:18:21.044 –> 00:18:23.284
– engage that again. And that’s going to be

516
00:18:23.284 –> 00:18:26.404
– a learned response to that behavior. Okay? And

517
00:18:26.404 –> 00:18:27.524
– this is where a lot of, you know,

518
00:18:27.524 –> 00:18:28.804
– a lot of people say, oh, well, why

519
00:18:28.804 –> 00:18:29.625
– paid sex?

520
00:18:30.404 –> 00:18:32.644
– And they want to know an answer. And

521
00:18:32.644 –> 00:18:34.200
– I I see a lot of therapists trying

522
00:18:34.200 –> 00:18:36.519
– to figure out, Oh well, paid sex happens

523
00:18:36.519 –> 00:18:38.779
– with this and this and this. Here’s where

524
00:18:39.079 –> 00:18:40.440
– I kind of disagree a lot of time.

525
00:18:40.440 –> 00:18:41.980
– To me, if you look at their timeline

526
00:18:42.039 –> 00:18:44.119
– when things convert over to paid sex, the

527
00:18:44.119 –> 00:18:44.619
– opportunity

528
00:18:45.319 –> 00:18:47.980
– to groom and have random hookups

529
00:18:48.375 –> 00:18:49.755
– became very difficult.

530
00:18:50.134 –> 00:18:52.795
– They’re probably gonna get caught and to avoid

531
00:18:53.015 –> 00:18:54.714
– getting discovered by their wife,

532
00:18:55.255 –> 00:18:57.255
– they switched over to paid sex. Not because

533
00:18:57.255 –> 00:18:59.335
– they wanted to, I really would have preferred

534
00:18:59.335 –> 00:19:00.615
– not to, but it was like, okay, I

535
00:19:00.615 –> 00:19:02.339
– can’t do this anymore. What can I do?

536
00:19:02.339 –> 00:19:04.579
– So sometimes I just wanted to to put

537
00:19:04.579 –> 00:19:06.039
– that plug in there is

538
00:19:06.339 –> 00:19:09.159
– sometimes the answer is as lame as

539
00:19:10.179 –> 00:19:12.099
– situational. You know, the guys is like, oh,

540
00:19:12.099 –> 00:19:13.299
– I don’t know. I just… I couldn’t get

541
00:19:13.299 –> 00:19:14.900
– away with that anymore, so I switched over

542
00:19:14.900 –> 00:19:16.684
– to this because paying for it just was

543
00:19:16.684 –> 00:19:17.884
– a lot more… It was it was faster.

544
00:19:17.884 –> 00:19:18.924
– It was easier. I could sneak it in

545
00:19:18.924 –> 00:19:20.204
– in the middle of the day, on a

546
00:19:20.204 –> 00:19:22.045
– lunch break. I mean, sometimes it is just

547
00:19:22.045 –> 00:19:23.804
– opportunistic. Oh, sure. And then there’s no more

548
00:19:23.804 –> 00:19:25.724
– to the why than than that. Yeah. And

549
00:19:25.724 –> 00:19:28.384
– that can happen. That’s a very unsatisfying

550
00:19:28.765 –> 00:19:31.920
– answer, Craig, because partners often want something deeper.

551
00:19:31.920 –> 00:19:33.759
– Like, the… Oh, the deeper that feels to

552
00:19:33.759 –> 00:19:35.920
– me, the more I can have some kind

553
00:19:35.920 –> 00:19:38.400
– of reassurance that that you’re working on this,

554
00:19:38.400 –> 00:19:40.160
– that this isn’t gonna happen again. He looks

555
00:19:40.160 –> 00:19:42.320
– like a lot of people. Understandable. Because it’s

556
00:19:42.320 –> 00:19:44.720
– it’s just opportunistic, and that’s really all it

557
00:19:44.720 –> 00:19:45.164
– is.

558
00:19:45.565 –> 00:19:48.285
– He looks like a cheating asshole and when

559
00:19:48.285 –> 00:19:50.225
– I came to terms with Jeremy was that

560
00:19:50.285 –> 00:19:53.105
– I was, that that was actually the truth.

561
00:19:53.164 –> 00:19:55.244
– I kept, it felt, I know we are

562
00:19:55.244 –> 00:19:56.845
– going to talk about this probably later but

563
00:19:56.845 –> 00:19:59.460
– like she did not like me trying to

564
00:19:59.460 –> 00:20:01.619
– pathologize it. It felt… It just didn’t feel

565
00:20:01.619 –> 00:20:03.220
– accurate to her. It was finally when I

566
00:20:03.220 –> 00:20:04.980
– was like, I don’t know. I think I

567
00:20:04.980 –> 00:20:07.380
– just wanted to sleep with these chicks and

568
00:20:07.380 –> 00:20:08.500
– I did it. Right? I mean, I was

569
00:20:08.500 –> 00:20:10.259
– just I just I just owned it. Like,

570
00:20:10.259 –> 00:20:11.460
– I don’t know what else to tell you.

571
00:20:11.460 –> 00:20:12.894
– I think I just I think I was

572
00:20:12.894 –> 00:20:13.954
– just a kind

573
00:20:14.414 –> 00:20:15.234
– of an asshole.

574
00:20:15.934 –> 00:20:16.434
– Sometimes

575
00:20:16.894 –> 00:20:18.015
– I don’t know what else to say. So

576
00:20:18.015 –> 00:20:19.454
– I I just wanna speak to that too

577
00:20:19.454 –> 00:20:20.815
– is, you know, because that’s big on my

578
00:20:20.815 –> 00:20:22.974
– podcast. I also don’t want you guys to

579
00:20:22.974 –> 00:20:26.359
– force yourself to make this to be anything

580
00:20:26.359 –> 00:20:29.399
– more complicated. It could just be, I’ve… We

581
00:20:29.399 –> 00:20:31.159
– live in a hypersexual world and I just

582
00:20:31.159 –> 00:20:33.319
– wanted to indulge. That is that is a

583
00:20:33.319 –> 00:20:34.919
– why and it just… And just because it’s

584
00:20:34.919 –> 00:20:35.659
– not satisfying

585
00:20:36.200 –> 00:20:38.115
– does not mean that it’s not true. Mhmm.

586
00:20:38.115 –> 00:20:40.355
– I couldn’t agree with that more. Anyways, keep

587
00:20:40.355 –> 00:20:42.615
– going. So, environmental, what else do we have?

588
00:20:42.674 –> 00:20:44.055
– Yeah. Then I think about

589
00:20:44.595 –> 00:20:46.355
– a couple of different things. First of all,

590
00:20:46.595 –> 00:20:48.994
– trauma. It’s not uncommon at all that we,

591
00:20:48.994 –> 00:20:51.075
– for some reason, out of the trauma that

592
00:20:51.075 –> 00:20:51.734
– we’ve experienced

593
00:20:52.069 –> 00:20:54.970
– when we’re younger, we turn to sexual behaviors

594
00:20:55.029 –> 00:20:55.929
– as a way to

595
00:20:56.710 –> 00:20:57.210
– address

596
00:20:57.589 –> 00:20:58.089
– or

597
00:20:58.470 –> 00:20:58.970
– soothe

598
00:20:59.349 –> 00:21:01.670
– that trauma. Now when we think about trauma,

599
00:21:01.670 –> 00:21:03.990
– we often talk about what’s called big t

600
00:21:03.990 –> 00:21:06.630
– trauma. Right? We’ve probably heard that term, big

601
00:21:06.630 –> 00:21:07.289
– t trauma.

602
00:21:08.365 –> 00:21:11.804
– Events that are, generally speaking, shorter in duration,

603
00:21:11.804 –> 00:21:13.804
– but very high in intensity. Right? Living through

604
00:21:13.804 –> 00:21:16.605
– a natural disaster, a car crash, a sexual

605
00:21:16.605 –> 00:21:19.345
– assault. Right? Something like that that… That’s unimaginably

606
00:21:20.044 –> 00:21:21.585
– painful and awful,

607
00:21:21.964 –> 00:21:23.505
– but often very short duration.

608
00:21:24.019 –> 00:21:26.759
– That can be very traumatic. And when we

609
00:21:26.980 –> 00:21:29.059
– experience something that’s traumatic like that, we might

610
00:21:29.059 –> 00:21:31.460
– develop post traumatic stress, and we might turn

611
00:21:31.460 –> 00:21:34.279
– to some kind of compulsive behavior or substance

612
00:21:34.500 –> 00:21:35.639
– in order to medicate

613
00:21:36.179 –> 00:21:38.099
– the effects of that trauma. Now a lot

614
00:21:38.099 –> 00:21:40.414
– of guys that I see who are older,

615
00:21:41.595 –> 00:21:44.335
– they grew up with that kind of trauma,

616
00:21:44.394 –> 00:21:46.075
– you know, whether it be abuse. I mean,

617
00:21:46.075 –> 00:21:46.734
– the classic

618
00:21:47.115 –> 00:21:49.275
– sex addict, so to speak. Very early in

619
00:21:49.275 –> 00:21:51.674
– the literature was, oh, yes. You’ve developed these

620
00:21:51.674 –> 00:21:54.015
– compensatory behaviors as a way to self soothe,

621
00:21:54.059 –> 00:21:56.160
– to medicate the the trauma that you experienced.

622
00:21:56.860 –> 00:21:59.580
– They talked about how sex addiction and trauma

623
00:21:59.580 –> 00:22:02.140
– went hand in hand. Okay? But I think

624
00:22:02.140 –> 00:22:03.920
– the research has developed

625
00:22:04.460 –> 00:22:07.304
– well past that at at this point. Right?

626
00:22:07.304 –> 00:22:10.264
– We… We’ve gotten much more sophisticated about understanding

627
00:22:10.264 –> 00:22:12.365
– the, environmental factors involved,

628
00:22:12.744 –> 00:22:13.244
– especially,

629
00:22:13.625 –> 00:22:15.704
– with folks who are struggling with… I see

630
00:22:15.704 –> 00:22:17.625
– this a lot with pornography addiction when people

631
00:22:17.625 –> 00:22:19.464
– are really young. Right? They grew up with

632
00:22:19.464 –> 00:22:21.224
– unrestricted access to the Internet. They grew up

633
00:22:21.224 –> 00:22:23.039
– with the Internet in their pockets because they,

634
00:22:23.039 –> 00:22:24.500
– of course, have a cell phone

635
00:22:24.880 –> 00:22:26.559
– because it’s so widely available, and they can

636
00:22:26.559 –> 00:22:27.700
– access it anonymously.

637
00:22:28.240 –> 00:22:31.519
– They develop problems because of the intense nature

638
00:22:31.519 –> 00:22:33.600
– of the pornography today. It can be that

639
00:22:33.600 –> 00:22:35.600
– much more addictive. I I wanna put a

640
00:22:35.600 –> 00:22:37.039
– plug in there before we move on from

641
00:22:37.039 –> 00:22:39.684
– that because, Jeremy, I want you to speak

642
00:22:39.684 –> 00:22:40.304
– to this.

643
00:22:40.924 –> 00:22:43.244
– I would still say to this day, 80

644
00:22:43.244 –> 00:22:44.865
– to 90% of the literature

645
00:22:45.325 –> 00:22:46.384
– and the

646
00:22:47.164 –> 00:22:48.704
– professionals who were certified

647
00:22:49.325 –> 00:22:51.184
– through the 90s and 2000s

648
00:22:51.990 –> 00:22:54.710
– still are riding that bus. There is… I

649
00:22:54.710 –> 00:22:57.589
– mean, there’s endless every book you buy including…

650
00:22:57.589 –> 00:22:59.029
– I’m not gonna name the names, but if

651
00:22:59.029 –> 00:22:59.529
– you

652
00:22:59.910 –> 00:23:00.410
– buy

653
00:23:00.789 –> 00:23:02.170
– the top nine books

654
00:23:02.710 –> 00:23:05.634
– in this field, they insinuate that you need

655
00:23:05.634 –> 00:23:08.174
– to figure out how… What happened to you

656
00:23:08.394 –> 00:23:09.694
– to make you this way.

657
00:23:09.994 –> 00:23:11.914
– And I think that to your point, the

658
00:23:11.914 –> 00:23:14.634
– research is now heavily disagreeing with that. Can

659
00:23:14.634 –> 00:23:16.154
– you speak to that please? Because I do

660
00:23:16.154 –> 00:23:18.154
– think I have so many clients that come

661
00:23:18.154 –> 00:23:20.000
– in and and they are

662
00:23:20.380 –> 00:23:21.759
– appalled that I’m not

663
00:23:22.059 –> 00:23:26.079
– having them obsess about their childhood trauma because

664
00:23:26.380 –> 00:23:28.700
– I I just… The research is indicating that

665
00:23:28.700 –> 00:23:31.180
– we don’t… That’s not necessarily the only factor

666
00:23:31.180 –> 00:23:32.940
– and some… For some people, it isn’t a

667
00:23:32.940 –> 00:23:33.920
– factor at all.

668
00:23:34.264 –> 00:23:35.085
– Mhmm. Yeah.

669
00:23:35.784 –> 00:23:37.884
– How many times have you heard somebody say,

670
00:23:37.944 –> 00:23:39.544
– well well, this must be the result of

671
00:23:39.544 –> 00:23:41.144
– something that happened to me, right, or or

672
00:23:41.144 –> 00:23:43.644
– some trauma that I experienced? Right. Well,

673
00:23:43.944 –> 00:23:45.404
– where did you get that message?

674
00:23:45.865 –> 00:23:46.365
– Well,

675
00:23:46.825 –> 00:23:48.670
– I mean… And they’ll tell you this out

676
00:23:48.670 –> 00:23:50.830
– of frustration because, well, you’re you’re the expert.

677
00:23:50.830 –> 00:23:52.670
– You’re supposed to help me because I know

678
00:23:52.670 –> 00:23:54.269
– that I need to find something in my

679
00:23:54.269 –> 00:23:56.109
– past that sort of unlocks all of this.

680
00:23:56.109 –> 00:23:57.730
– Right? What if it isn’t?

681
00:23:58.109 –> 00:24:00.430
– What if, like, every… I mean, everyone’s got

682
00:24:00.430 –> 00:24:01.714
– trauma. That’s not

683
00:24:02.015 –> 00:24:03.934
– to minimize the impact of trauma in our

684
00:24:03.934 –> 00:24:05.394
– lives. And to some extent,

685
00:24:06.255 –> 00:24:08.434
– I almost never say always.

686
00:24:09.054 –> 00:24:12.654
– Okay. But we all probably use sexually compulsive

687
00:24:12.654 –> 00:24:14.194
– behaviors in some way

688
00:24:14.680 –> 00:24:17.080
– to cope with feelings that, that we might

689
00:24:17.080 –> 00:24:18.220
– not like to feel

690
00:24:18.759 –> 00:24:21.660
– or that we, want to feel more of.

691
00:24:22.039 –> 00:24:22.539
– Right?

692
00:24:23.799 –> 00:24:26.359
– So to some extent, trauma is is likely

693
00:24:26.359 –> 00:24:29.339
– playing some role, albeit a minimal one. But

694
00:24:29.794 –> 00:24:31.815
– to be on the hunt for

695
00:24:32.115 –> 00:24:35.075
– the unicorn of a traumatic past, some episode

696
00:24:35.075 –> 00:24:36.674
– that unlocks this, I I think is a

697
00:24:36.674 –> 00:24:38.355
– red herring. Well, and I I want you

698
00:24:38.355 –> 00:24:41.474
– to speak to this too. Mhmm. Attraction is

699
00:24:41.474 –> 00:24:43.619
– sexual, is it not? Yeah.

700
00:24:44.079 –> 00:24:46.480
– So would you not agree that, okay, yes,

701
00:24:46.480 –> 00:24:48.819
– maybe not through physical touch or intercourse,

702
00:24:49.119 –> 00:24:51.619
– but would you not say that there are

703
00:24:52.240 –> 00:24:56.099
– insane amounts of people using their physical appearance,

704
00:24:56.785 –> 00:24:58.865
– dancing it and making it more attractive and

705
00:24:58.865 –> 00:25:00.704
– wanting it to be looked at. I mean,

706
00:25:00.704 –> 00:25:03.144
– does that not fall into this same spectrum?

707
00:25:03.144 –> 00:25:05.384
– I mean, I understand that’s probably gonna offend

708
00:25:05.384 –> 00:25:07.664
– a lot of people but I just wanted

709
00:25:07.664 –> 00:25:09.984
– to point out how you said to many

710
00:25:09.984 –> 00:25:10.484
– degrees,

711
00:25:11.269 –> 00:25:13.829
– a lot of us are using sexually compulsive

712
00:25:13.829 –> 00:25:15.269
– behavior. I think a lot of listeners are

713
00:25:15.269 –> 00:25:16.869
– gonna hear that and say, I’ve never once

714
00:25:16.869 –> 00:25:18.869
– hired a prostitute. I don’t look at porn

715
00:25:18.869 –> 00:25:20.710
– this… You know, they’re gonna say, you know,

716
00:25:20.710 –> 00:25:22.549
– all the things that… You know, I don’t

717
00:25:22.549 –> 00:25:23.289
– do that.

718
00:25:23.804 –> 00:25:26.524
– Is you playing into sex appeal and sexual

719
00:25:26.524 –> 00:25:27.024
– attraction

720
00:25:27.644 –> 00:25:30.044
– while being a monogamous marriage and putting tons

721
00:25:30.044 –> 00:25:31.884
– amount of money and time and effort into

722
00:25:31.884 –> 00:25:33.804
– looking attractive? I mean, I’m sorry. Is that

723
00:25:33.804 –> 00:25:35.184
– is that not still

724
00:25:36.125 –> 00:25:38.065
– is that not still falling into the sexual

725
00:25:38.284 –> 00:25:38.784
– realm?

726
00:25:39.139 –> 00:25:40.519
– I would argue yes.

727
00:25:41.299 –> 00:25:43.700
– Because going back to what we had said

728
00:25:43.700 –> 00:25:46.019
– about using these behaviors as a way of

729
00:25:46.019 –> 00:25:48.819
– feeling something more, right, or or making it

730
00:25:48.819 –> 00:25:50.819
– for some… Talk about this in a second,

731
00:25:50.819 –> 00:25:52.579
– making it for some, deficit of what we

732
00:25:52.579 –> 00:25:54.525
– didn’t get when we were young. Right?

733
00:25:55.724 –> 00:25:58.765
– A great example is, how so many people

734
00:25:58.765 –> 00:26:00.285
– I talk to, they have a problem with

735
00:26:00.285 –> 00:26:02.785
– sex. Yes. But they’re actually addicted to validation.

736
00:26:03.404 –> 00:26:05.244
– And you can say that, yeah, I I

737
00:26:05.244 –> 00:26:07.884
– don’t necessarily have a problem with, sexually compulsive

738
00:26:07.884 –> 00:26:09.105
– behaviors per se,

739
00:26:09.759 –> 00:26:11.679
– But I am going to find some way

740
00:26:11.679 –> 00:26:14.259
– of getting that validation that I want,

741
00:26:15.119 –> 00:26:16.579
– and I’m going to

742
00:26:17.599 –> 00:26:20.319
– be very attentive or even… Or very attentive

743
00:26:20.319 –> 00:26:23.460
– or even, a little compulsive or obsessive about

744
00:26:23.904 –> 00:26:26.305
– what I do to get that. Right? So

745
00:26:26.305 –> 00:26:28.224
– the example that you’re describing is a pretty

746
00:26:28.224 –> 00:26:30.704
– good one, actually. I go to the gym.

747
00:26:30.704 –> 00:26:32.944
– I can see people who are Well, the

748
00:26:32.944 –> 00:26:35.045
– argument in the mirror. The argument is…

749
00:26:35.424 –> 00:26:36.865
– And I hear this all the time. Anytime

750
00:26:36.865 –> 00:26:38.460
– I touch on this because it’s a sensitive…

751
00:26:38.460 –> 00:26:40.700
– It it it activates people because they feel

752
00:26:40.700 –> 00:26:42.619
– like I’m accusing them of of having an

753
00:26:42.619 –> 00:26:43.119
– anthology.

754
00:26:43.500 –> 00:26:46.299
– I’m not. I’m just trying to just point

755
00:26:46.299 –> 00:26:48.700
– out how humans… All humans play in this

756
00:26:48.700 –> 00:26:50.140
– arena. I I don’t think I’ve met somebody

757
00:26:50.140 –> 00:26:52.174
– who doesn’t play in this arena. Jeremy, there,

758
00:26:52.174 –> 00:26:53.694
– you were going into the gym example. The

759
00:26:53.694 –> 00:26:55.615
– argument that I hear back from people who

760
00:26:55.615 –> 00:26:57.234
– get, you know, again, plastic surgeries,

761
00:26:57.855 –> 00:27:00.734
– Botox, lip fillers, go to the gym, diet,

762
00:27:00.734 –> 00:27:01.954
– use tanning beds.

763
00:27:02.255 –> 00:27:03.855
– I mean, the makeup industry is… I mean,

764
00:27:03.855 –> 00:27:05.289
– it’s not that far behind tech. I mean,

765
00:27:05.289 –> 00:27:08.410
– it’s a it’s a monstrous industry. The excuse

766
00:27:08.410 –> 00:27:09.930
– I hear back though is that, oh, well,

767
00:27:09.930 –> 00:27:12.009
– that makes me feel better about myself or,

768
00:27:12.009 –> 00:27:14.670
– oh, I’m I’m just fitting into… I mean,

769
00:27:14.890 –> 00:27:16.730
– I would say that that’s the same excuse

770
00:27:16.730 –> 00:27:18.329
– I hear from my clients. I mean, that’s…

771
00:27:18.329 –> 00:27:20.250
– That was kind of the primary driver around

772
00:27:20.250 –> 00:27:22.274
– why they did this was… So I mean,

773
00:27:22.274 –> 00:27:22.774
– it’s…

774
00:27:23.394 –> 00:27:25.815
– What’s the difference here? Is it that society

775
00:27:25.875 –> 00:27:27.154
– says it’s okay to go to the gym

776
00:27:27.154 –> 00:27:28.694
– and it’s okay to enhance

777
00:27:28.994 –> 00:27:31.154
– the way that your body and your face

778
00:27:31.154 –> 00:27:32.835
– looks? Is that is that really the debate

779
00:27:32.835 –> 00:27:33.335
– whereas

780
00:27:33.679 –> 00:27:36.160
– monogamy and going against it is socially shamed?

781
00:27:36.160 –> 00:27:37.059
– I mean, what’s the…

782
00:27:37.440 –> 00:27:38.799
– And again, well, the reason I bring this

783
00:27:38.799 –> 00:27:40.640
– up is point of this episode, I’m just

784
00:27:40.640 –> 00:27:42.319
– trying to show people why the why is

785
00:27:42.319 –> 00:27:45.279
– so difficult to pin down because Yeah. We’re

786
00:27:45.279 –> 00:27:46.420
– really looking at

787
00:27:46.765 –> 00:27:48.065
– a ton of sociocultural

788
00:27:48.444 –> 00:27:48.944
– factors

789
00:27:49.484 –> 00:27:52.285
– that drive somebody to make a decision. And

790
00:27:52.285 –> 00:27:54.125
– I think there are some people who don’t

791
00:27:54.125 –> 00:27:55.565
– get plastic surgery and there are some people

792
00:27:55.565 –> 00:27:57.644
– who do. And I think people just make

793
00:27:57.644 –> 00:28:00.309
– the decision based off of, again a belief

794
00:28:00.309 –> 00:28:02.070
– system, a way they wanna feel. Can can

795
00:28:02.070 –> 00:28:03.049
– you speak to

796
00:28:03.750 –> 00:28:07.130
– why some playing in the sexual realms in

797
00:28:07.190 –> 00:28:08.250
– some of these behaviors

798
00:28:08.710 –> 00:28:11.750
– is okay while crossing the line when you’re

799
00:28:11.750 –> 00:28:13.825
– cheating is not? I know the answer to

800
00:28:13.825 –> 00:28:14.865
– that, but I just want you to speak

801
00:28:14.865 –> 00:28:15.365
– to

802
00:28:17.184 –> 00:28:18.865
– it. Yeah. I I mean, I think I

803
00:28:18.865 –> 00:28:20.625
– bought a couple of things when, when you

804
00:28:20.625 –> 00:28:22.544
– asked that question. First of all, is my

805
00:28:22.544 –> 00:28:25.585
– behavior secretive? Am I pursuing this behavior in

806
00:28:25.585 –> 00:28:27.444
– a secretive fashion that is

807
00:28:27.940 –> 00:28:30.180
– in violation of the agreements that I’ve made

808
00:28:30.180 –> 00:28:30.920
– with my partner?

809
00:28:31.380 –> 00:28:33.779
– Right. And to your point, nobody usually gets

810
00:28:33.779 –> 00:28:35.299
– in and says, hey, you don’t get to

811
00:28:35.299 –> 00:28:36.980
– buy nice clothes. You don’t get to buy

812
00:28:36.980 –> 00:28:38.580
– makeup anymore, and you don’t get to have

813
00:28:38.580 –> 00:28:40.500
– plastic surgery. That’s usually not part of the

814
00:28:40.500 –> 00:28:41.480
– marital contract.

815
00:28:41.914 –> 00:28:44.875
– Right. Right. And so the second piece is,

816
00:28:44.875 –> 00:28:46.154
– first of all, they… Are they done with

817
00:28:46.154 –> 00:28:48.794
– consent, but are they… Am I pursuing these

818
00:28:48.794 –> 00:28:49.294
– behaviors

819
00:28:49.595 –> 00:28:51.515
– in a way that feels healthy to me

820
00:28:51.515 –> 00:28:54.234
– and enhances the health and well-being of my

821
00:28:54.234 –> 00:28:54.734
– relationships?

822
00:28:55.570 –> 00:28:57.730
– Mhmm. And if I think we’re really honest

823
00:28:57.730 –> 00:28:58.390
– with ourselves,

824
00:28:59.009 –> 00:29:00.549
– when we’re engaging in

825
00:29:01.090 –> 00:29:02.950
– compulsive behaviors that feel secretive

826
00:29:03.330 –> 00:29:04.549
– or that are

827
00:29:05.170 –> 00:29:07.730
– in some way… If we’re truly looking at

828
00:29:07.730 –> 00:29:08.390
– our motivations,

829
00:29:08.865 –> 00:29:11.605
– assuaging some kind of internal pain or insecurity.

830
00:29:12.065 –> 00:29:13.904
– I mean, to be really honest, I fell

831
00:29:13.904 –> 00:29:16.224
– into this trap pretty early on in my

832
00:29:16.224 –> 00:29:18.244
– fitness journey. This was a few years ago.

833
00:29:18.384 –> 00:29:20.944
– But again, I began working out because I

834
00:29:20.944 –> 00:29:23.125
– didn’t feel happy with my body.

835
00:29:23.480 –> 00:29:25.400
– Right? And so I began to focus a

836
00:29:25.400 –> 00:29:26.220
– little more,

837
00:29:27.240 –> 00:29:29.420
– perhaps even too much on

838
00:29:30.279 –> 00:29:30.779
– exercising

839
00:29:31.080 –> 00:29:33.900
– and, and then watching my my weight now.

840
00:29:34.200 –> 00:29:36.119
– Since then, I’ve come to a healthier place.

841
00:29:36.119 –> 00:29:38.804
– Right? But it’s the same sort of deal

842
00:29:38.804 –> 00:29:40.404
– with these kind of behaviors. Yeah and I

843
00:29:40.404 –> 00:29:41.684
– just wanted to highlight one thing that he

844
00:29:41.684 –> 00:29:42.664
– said there was,

845
00:29:42.964 –> 00:29:45.944
– there’s a difference between wanting to look good

846
00:29:46.644 –> 00:29:49.444
– for yourself and then there is a line

847
00:29:49.444 –> 00:29:52.085
– where you are… I would say you are

848
00:29:52.085 –> 00:29:52.585
– now

849
00:29:53.490 –> 00:29:55.029
– you are now actually

850
00:29:55.809 –> 00:29:58.769
– leaving the sexual container reserved for your partner

851
00:29:58.769 –> 00:30:01.170
– because you want to be lusted after, you

852
00:30:01.170 –> 00:30:03.670
– want to be looked at as sexy,

853
00:30:04.049 –> 00:30:05.670
– sexually appealing, right?

854
00:30:06.075 –> 00:30:08.174
– There is that line where you are crossing

855
00:30:08.234 –> 00:30:08.734
– beyond

856
00:30:09.434 –> 00:30:11.034
– wanting to feel good in your own body

857
00:30:11.034 –> 00:30:13.674
– and wanting now attention outside. That would now

858
00:30:13.674 –> 00:30:15.375
– be something that would… Because

859
00:30:15.755 –> 00:30:17.774
– I do think that people enter the relationship

860
00:30:18.329 –> 00:30:19.929
– not wanting the person to go out and

861
00:30:19.929 –> 00:30:21.849
– get sexual attention from others. Would you not

862
00:30:21.849 –> 00:30:23.710
– agree with that? I think that’s

863
00:30:24.089 –> 00:30:26.329
– very common to the agreements that partners make

864
00:30:26.329 –> 00:30:28.250
– implicitly. Not not every marriage, but I I

865
00:30:28.250 –> 00:30:29.929
– think there are a lot of marriages that

866
00:30:29.929 –> 00:30:31.994
– that that that would be a request. Right?

867
00:30:32.555 –> 00:30:34.394
– We went from environmental factors. We went into

868
00:30:34.394 –> 00:30:36.255
– trauma. Did you finish on the trauma piece?

869
00:30:36.555 –> 00:30:38.555
– Yeah. We talked about big t trauma. The

870
00:30:38.555 –> 00:30:40.714
– other piece of this… And and this is

871
00:30:40.714 –> 00:30:43.375
– what makes the why even harder. Right? Because

872
00:30:43.914 –> 00:30:46.474
– most folks who, are starting off in recovery,

873
00:30:46.474 –> 00:30:49.059
– they they really don’t have any idea about,

874
00:30:49.299 –> 00:30:52.179
– what’s called little t trauma. Now little t

875
00:30:52.179 –> 00:30:54.500
– trauma is in contrast to big t trauma.

876
00:30:54.500 –> 00:30:56.759
– It’s much longer in duration.

877
00:30:57.220 –> 00:30:59.399
– It’s much, much, much more frequent

878
00:30:59.714 –> 00:31:02.535
– over the course of time. This takes repeatedly

879
00:31:03.075 –> 00:31:04.994
– many thousands of times over the course of

880
00:31:04.994 –> 00:31:05.494
– years.

881
00:31:06.194 –> 00:31:08.454
– Small interactions with our caregivers

882
00:31:08.835 –> 00:31:12.660
– that are somehow painful, hurtful, or emotionally damaging.

883
00:31:13.039 –> 00:31:16.000
– Messages about, who we are, about our self

884
00:31:16.000 –> 00:31:19.700
– worth, about how lovable we are or aren’t.

885
00:31:20.320 –> 00:31:21.700
– We take in those messages

886
00:31:22.480 –> 00:31:22.980
– unconsciously.

887
00:31:23.615 –> 00:31:25.455
– Can I add? I want you to keep…

888
00:31:25.455 –> 00:31:27.055
– Please be bookmarking where you are. I just

889
00:31:27.055 –> 00:31:28.575
– wanna add, because you and I have talked

890
00:31:28.575 –> 00:31:30.494
– about this in previous episodes. It’s not just

891
00:31:30.494 –> 00:31:32.095
– caregivers. I want everybody to listen to this.

892
00:31:32.095 –> 00:31:33.075
– You can be traumatized

893
00:31:33.535 –> 00:31:36.595
– by watching role models on television, by watching

894
00:31:36.734 –> 00:31:38.914
– the upperclassmen. So let’s say you’re a freshman

895
00:31:39.289 –> 00:31:40.809
– or let’s say you’re a third grader and

896
00:31:40.809 –> 00:31:43.369
– you’re watching the fifth graders. So again, it’s

897
00:31:43.369 –> 00:31:43.869
– repetitive

898
00:31:44.490 –> 00:31:44.990
– influences

899
00:31:46.089 –> 00:31:48.490
– that are coming into your body really without

900
00:31:48.490 –> 00:31:50.409
– in your mind without you even knowing it.

901
00:31:50.409 –> 00:31:52.409
– Right? Just watching… I’ll never forget it. They

902
00:31:52.409 –> 00:31:54.315
– were bullying this kid on the bus and

903
00:31:54.474 –> 00:31:55.754
– all… And it was… I was in I

904
00:31:55.754 –> 00:31:57.034
– was in third grade. They’re all in fifth

905
00:31:57.034 –> 00:31:59.214
– grade and all I remember thinking was

906
00:31:59.674 –> 00:32:01.274
– do everything I can in my in my

907
00:32:01.274 –> 00:32:03.514
– power to not be that kid who’s getting

908
00:32:03.514 –> 00:32:05.754
– picked on. That’s another example of little t

909
00:32:05.754 –> 00:32:07.034
– trauma. So it’s not… Oh, I just wanted

910
00:32:07.034 –> 00:32:08.315
– to put that plug in. It’s not always

911
00:32:08.315 –> 00:32:10.849
– caregivers. I did not… My parents were super

912
00:32:10.849 –> 00:32:13.650
– nerdy and dorky and I had really no

913
00:32:13.650 –> 00:32:16.289
– interest in following in their footsteps whatsoever. So

914
00:32:16.289 –> 00:32:16.950
– my caregivers,

915
00:32:17.730 –> 00:32:18.230
– opinions

916
00:32:19.329 –> 00:32:21.009
– really didn’t matter to me and so my…

917
00:32:21.009 –> 00:32:22.575
– There’s really nothing my parents could say or

918
00:32:22.575 –> 00:32:24.494
– do that would traumatize me because I wrote

919
00:32:24.494 –> 00:32:26.894
– off all their advice as not that… Yeah.

920
00:32:26.894 –> 00:32:28.255
– I I didn’t look up to them or

921
00:32:28.255 –> 00:32:30.015
– listen to or listen to them at all.

922
00:32:30.015 –> 00:32:31.134
– So I just wanna put a little plug

923
00:32:31.134 –> 00:32:33.054
– in there. Keep going. No. I thank you

924
00:32:33.054 –> 00:32:35.054
– for saying that, because it’s so true. I…

925
00:32:35.054 –> 00:32:37.019
– I’ve spoken with a number of guys who

926
00:32:37.019 –> 00:32:39.440
– had been traumatized by the educational system.

927
00:32:40.059 –> 00:32:42.640
– The teachers get to school and the system

928
00:32:42.779 –> 00:32:44.940
– didn’t do anything to support them. So that

929
00:32:44.940 –> 00:32:47.180
– is absolutely accurate. And advice, I think a

930
00:32:47.180 –> 00:32:48.240
– lot of my clients…

931
00:32:48.619 –> 00:32:49.900
– I mean, I can’t tell you. I’d say

932
00:32:49.900 –> 00:32:51.500
– nine out of 10 my my clients say,

933
00:32:51.500 –> 00:32:53.315
– oh, trauma, I didn’t have any in my

934
00:32:53.315 –> 00:32:56.934
– life. But performance based praise and somebody encouraging

935
00:32:57.075 –> 00:32:59.654
– you to go to medical school, and encouraging

936
00:32:59.795 –> 00:33:00.535
– you to

937
00:33:00.835 –> 00:33:02.595
– make this, and save up this much money,

938
00:33:02.595 –> 00:33:04.170
– and you don’t wanna be poor, do you?

939
00:33:04.250 –> 00:33:06.170
– Right? I mean, that’s all trauma as well.

940
00:33:06.170 –> 00:33:08.650
– Right? My parents, they had a huge emphasis

941
00:33:08.650 –> 00:33:09.470
– on success

942
00:33:09.930 –> 00:33:11.529
– and so, yeah, when when we would drive

943
00:33:11.529 –> 00:33:13.450
– by somebody, oh, you don’t wanna be flipping

944
00:33:13.450 –> 00:33:16.509
– hamburgers at McDonald’s. That is an incredibly objectifying

945
00:33:16.650 –> 00:33:18.355
– statement And so I just wanted to plug

946
00:33:18.355 –> 00:33:21.154
– in, like, advice for my clients. I’d say

947
00:33:21.154 –> 00:33:22.914
– most high achieving men, they were way more

948
00:33:22.914 –> 00:33:25.075
– traumatized by role models and advice than they

949
00:33:25.075 –> 00:33:26.375
– were by adverse events.

950
00:33:26.755 –> 00:33:29.315
– Because it’s still… The the conclusion is, don’t

951
00:33:29.315 –> 00:33:31.759
– be poor, don’t be that guy, don’t be

952
00:33:31.759 –> 00:33:34.240
– this. Basically, live in the most exclusive neighborhood

953
00:33:34.240 –> 00:33:36.880
– in town, drive drive German automobiles, make sure

954
00:33:36.880 –> 00:33:38.400
– you don’t drive them past when the new

955
00:33:38.400 –> 00:33:40.240
– body style comes out, and make sure your

956
00:33:40.240 –> 00:33:42.240
– portfolio puts you in the top 1% of

957
00:33:42.240 –> 00:33:44.079
– your age bracket. Mhmm. That’s all trauma, is

958
00:33:44.079 –> 00:33:47.095
– it not? I agree. Because that’s ultimately shame.

959
00:33:47.095 –> 00:33:49.734
– If you aren’t all of those things, then

960
00:33:49.734 –> 00:33:50.474
– who are you?

961
00:33:50.775 –> 00:33:52.615
– We learn in those ways through those kinds

962
00:33:52.615 –> 00:33:55.575
– of messages, which are incredibly complex. I mean,

963
00:33:55.575 –> 00:33:57.095
– I love what you’re saying here because it’s

964
00:33:57.095 –> 00:33:58.289
– highlighting just how

965
00:33:58.769 –> 00:34:01.350
– complex and layered these messages are.

966
00:34:02.210 –> 00:34:03.910
– And and what’s challenging is

967
00:34:04.369 –> 00:34:06.930
– because we, grow up in these kinds of

968
00:34:06.930 –> 00:34:09.269
– environments where we hear all of these messages,

969
00:34:10.050 –> 00:34:11.510
– they feel so normalized.

970
00:34:12.094 –> 00:34:14.014
– We aren’t… Like you were saying, we aren’t

971
00:34:14.014 –> 00:34:16.335
– aware of how they’re shaping us and our

972
00:34:16.335 –> 00:34:18.594
– identity and how we feel about ourselves and

973
00:34:18.815 –> 00:34:20.734
– how we show up in relationships. And the

974
00:34:20.734 –> 00:34:22.174
– reason I bring this up just as one

975
00:34:22.174 –> 00:34:24.174
– of my main reasons for wanting women to

976
00:34:24.174 –> 00:34:25.154
– want me was

977
00:34:25.760 –> 00:34:27.760
– every guy that we all look up to

978
00:34:27.760 –> 00:34:29.920
– is wanted by women. That’s why I never

979
00:34:29.920 –> 00:34:32.319
– identified as a sex addict. In fact, there

980
00:34:32.319 –> 00:34:34.559
– was probably four years where I would stop

981
00:34:34.559 –> 00:34:37.359
– shy of any physical touching and interaction because

982
00:34:37.359 –> 00:34:38.739
– I didn’t really want

983
00:34:39.184 –> 00:34:41.184
– to be a cheater. I just wanted to

984
00:34:41.184 –> 00:34:43.764
– know that I could. Because again, the narrative

985
00:34:43.905 –> 00:34:47.344
– was, if you’re really awesome, you’re wanted by

986
00:34:47.344 –> 00:34:49.585
– these women and they wanna give themselves to

987
00:34:49.585 –> 00:34:51.505
– you. And so it was… To me, it

988
00:34:51.505 –> 00:34:53.940
– was a validation check-in the checkbox of, there’s

989
00:34:53.940 –> 00:34:56.260
– tons of guys here. They all want these

990
00:34:56.260 –> 00:34:58.019
– three women. I’m gonna go see if I

991
00:34:58.019 –> 00:34:59.960
– can get them because they’re the most desirable

992
00:35:00.019 –> 00:35:01.800
– women in that. I mean, it’s it’s objectification

993
00:35:02.019 –> 00:35:04.019
– at its finest of both the women and

994
00:35:04.019 –> 00:35:04.519
– me.

995
00:35:04.820 –> 00:35:06.820
– Reducing them down to an object for gain

996
00:35:06.820 –> 00:35:09.105
– and then reducing me to being only as

997
00:35:09.105 –> 00:35:11.425
– valuable as women want me and as many

998
00:35:11.425 –> 00:35:12.945
– men wish that they could be me. I

999
00:35:12.945 –> 00:35:15.025
– mean, I really… It’s objectification on both sides

1000
00:35:15.025 –> 00:35:16.945
– at the finest. So I just wanted to…

1001
00:35:16.945 –> 00:35:18.704
– You know, my definition of trauma is anything

1002
00:35:18.704 –> 00:35:20.644
– that alters your natural course of existence.

1003
00:35:21.000 –> 00:35:22.920
– So if somebody gives you a bunch of

1004
00:35:22.920 –> 00:35:25.980
– advice and I was going to become a

1005
00:35:26.039 –> 00:35:28.300
– architect who spent most of his time in

1006
00:35:28.440 –> 00:35:31.079
– in Northern Arizona in my cabin drawing these

1007
00:35:31.079 –> 00:35:32.840
– really fantastic… And I was gonna become this

1008
00:35:32.840 –> 00:35:33.659
– famous architect,

1009
00:35:33.974 –> 00:35:36.954
– but because that was too nerdy, too isolating,

1010
00:35:37.414 –> 00:35:38.635
– I became an extroverted,

1011
00:35:39.414 –> 00:35:42.135
– outgoing, outspoken person who was obsessed with my

1012
00:35:42.135 –> 00:35:44.855
– image because that was cooler than me just

1013
00:35:44.855 –> 00:35:46.614
– living in a cabin with my wife and

1014
00:35:46.614 –> 00:35:48.510
– my kids drawing artistic drawings.

1015
00:35:48.989 –> 00:35:50.190
– That’s not a fake story. I did want

1016
00:35:50.190 –> 00:35:51.550
– to be an architect at one point in

1017
00:35:51.550 –> 00:35:53.389
– time and I was a very shy person

1018
00:35:53.389 –> 00:35:56.390
– and now I’ve manipulated myself and I can’t,

1019
00:35:56.390 –> 00:35:58.510
– you know, Jeremy often wonder how many miles

1020
00:35:58.510 –> 00:35:59.949
– off of who I was supposed to be

1021
00:35:59.949 –> 00:36:01.550
– I am today. So it’s… I just wanted

1022
00:36:01.550 –> 00:36:03.724
– to give that little plug to listeners. It’s

1023
00:36:03.724 –> 00:36:05.565
– not generally… The ear word trauma in our

1024
00:36:05.565 –> 00:36:07.265
– heads instantly go to negative

1025
00:36:07.885 –> 00:36:09.425
– instances. And I would say

1026
00:36:09.804 –> 00:36:12.364
– in The United States at least, I would

1027
00:36:12.364 –> 00:36:13.824
– say the most traumatized

1028
00:36:14.284 –> 00:36:15.265
– people I see

1029
00:36:15.644 –> 00:36:17.405
– are people who just got way too much

1030
00:36:17.405 –> 00:36:19.079
– dang advice of how to live their life.

1031
00:36:19.480 –> 00:36:21.160
– Wow. I love that perspective, and thank you

1032
00:36:21.160 –> 00:36:23.559
– for sharing that. Anything else on trauma before

1033
00:36:23.559 –> 00:36:25.260
– we go to your other points?

1034
00:36:25.800 –> 00:36:26.300
– Yeah.

1035
00:36:26.599 –> 00:36:27.500
– So understanding,

1036
00:36:28.280 –> 00:36:30.599
– lower t trauma, everybody’s experienced this kind of

1037
00:36:30.599 –> 00:36:33.320
– relational trauma, some to great degrees, some to,

1038
00:36:33.559 –> 00:36:34.460
– lesser degrees.

1039
00:36:35.375 –> 00:36:37.375
– When we think about that, usually, we’re we’re

1040
00:36:37.375 –> 00:36:39.855
– talking about… If we’re just drilling down on

1041
00:36:39.855 –> 00:36:42.335
– this point, okay, to the extent that this

1042
00:36:42.335 –> 00:36:45.135
– is accurate. Okay? Everybody has to sort of…

1043
00:36:45.135 –> 00:36:47.534
– In a journey of, self honesty and self

1044
00:36:47.534 –> 00:36:48.034
– awareness,

1045
00:36:48.335 –> 00:36:50.275
– come to some understanding of this,

1046
00:36:50.789 –> 00:36:51.530
– in consultation,

1047
00:36:52.150 –> 00:36:53.210
– with with others.

1048
00:36:53.590 –> 00:36:55.190
– To what extent might I be using my

1049
00:36:55.190 –> 00:36:57.670
– socially compulsive behaviors to manage these feelings that

1050
00:36:57.670 –> 00:36:59.050
– I don’t wanna feel, and

1051
00:36:59.349 –> 00:37:01.590
– what might I be in some way using

1052
00:37:01.590 –> 00:37:02.410
– these behaviors

1053
00:37:02.789 –> 00:37:03.289
– to

1054
00:37:03.829 –> 00:37:05.610
– unmet needs fulfilled?

1055
00:37:06.434 –> 00:37:07.735
– Tend to consider

1056
00:37:08.355 –> 00:37:09.655
– needs that we experienced,

1057
00:37:10.114 –> 00:37:12.835
– growing up. When when we’re with caregivers or

1058
00:37:12.835 –> 00:37:15.315
– or, you know, anyone who, we we care

1059
00:37:15.315 –> 00:37:16.775
– about, who cares about us,

1060
00:37:17.635 –> 00:37:19.015
– our attachment needs

1061
00:37:19.329 –> 00:37:21.969
– often go unfulfilled when we learn that those

1062
00:37:21.969 –> 00:37:24.369
– needs aren’t lovable or welcome. We get the

1063
00:37:24.369 –> 00:37:26.869
– message that that part of us isn’t wanted.

1064
00:37:26.929 –> 00:37:28.469
– Those needs tend to go underground,

1065
00:37:29.089 –> 00:37:30.230
– and they can

1066
00:37:30.609 –> 00:37:33.589
– become part of what Young calls our shadow.

1067
00:37:33.954 –> 00:37:34.454
– Right?

1068
00:37:34.835 –> 00:37:36.914
– That shadow part of us that’s not part

1069
00:37:36.914 –> 00:37:39.094
– of our everyday conscious life

1070
00:37:39.394 –> 00:37:41.815
– that somehow we find expression of oftentimes

1071
00:37:42.674 –> 00:37:44.694
– can be through sexual behaviors.

1072
00:37:45.155 –> 00:37:46.775
– And so we might

1073
00:37:47.510 –> 00:37:50.869
– engage our shadow by developing sexually compulsive behaviors

1074
00:37:50.869 –> 00:37:53.829
– that become problematic. Mhmm. Mhmm. Okay. That doesn’t

1075
00:37:53.829 –> 00:37:56.569
– always happen. It’s not an explanation for everyone.

1076
00:37:57.190 –> 00:37:59.929
– And I think it’s best to consult with

1077
00:38:00.434 –> 00:38:01.315
– professionals to,

1078
00:38:01.954 –> 00:38:03.175
– make sense of that,

1079
00:38:03.555 –> 00:38:06.355
– but that can be one helpful way that

1080
00:38:06.355 –> 00:38:07.175
– I understand

1081
00:38:07.474 –> 00:38:10.535
– the why question and why these behaviors started.

1082
00:38:10.914 –> 00:38:12.755
– It’s not just… You know, and this is

1083
00:38:12.755 –> 00:38:15.414
– this is why I started this podcast was

1084
00:38:15.909 –> 00:38:19.030
– there’s this emphasis that you’re doing these sexual

1085
00:38:19.030 –> 00:38:20.250
– things to escape

1086
00:38:21.030 –> 00:38:22.650
– your traumas. Right.

1087
00:38:23.269 –> 00:38:24.329
– High achieving men,

1088
00:38:24.710 –> 00:38:26.730
– it’s the opposite. The trauma is,

1089
00:38:27.190 –> 00:38:29.835
– I need more. I need more novelty. I

1090
00:38:29.835 –> 00:38:31.994
– need more experiences. I need to have the

1091
00:38:31.994 –> 00:38:34.414
– best. And so it’s all… It’s this insatiable

1092
00:38:34.635 –> 00:38:35.775
– desire for more

1093
00:38:36.155 –> 00:38:38.715
– experiences, more novelty, better. I need to know

1094
00:38:38.715 –> 00:38:40.074
– that I’m better. I need to know that

1095
00:38:40.074 –> 00:38:41.114
– I can have the best. I need to

1096
00:38:41.114 –> 00:38:43.355
– know that people know that I have the

1097
00:38:43.355 –> 00:38:43.739
– best.

1098
00:38:44.300 –> 00:38:46.619
– So a lot of their sexual behaviors are

1099
00:38:46.619 –> 00:38:49.500
– this pursuit of, again, more experiences, more novelty.

1100
00:38:49.500 –> 00:38:51.739
– It’s it’s not an escape. It’s it’s a

1101
00:38:51.739 –> 00:38:52.239
– means

1102
00:38:52.619 –> 00:38:55.019
– to more. So I I just wanna put

1103
00:38:55.019 –> 00:38:56.800
– both of those in there. They’re both reactions

1104
00:38:56.860 –> 00:38:59.015
– to trauma. It does. It’s just it’s not

1105
00:38:59.015 –> 00:39:00.875
– always an escape, right? So

1106
00:39:01.175 –> 00:39:03.575
– there’s this perception that, oh, and this is

1107
00:39:03.575 –> 00:39:05.355
– again why the word sex addiction

1108
00:39:05.735 –> 00:39:07.755
– has not been adopted is

1109
00:39:08.775 –> 00:39:09.275
– that

1110
00:39:09.655 –> 00:39:11.909
– does track when you’re doing a lot of

1111
00:39:11.909 –> 00:39:14.469
– escapism, right? Because we are getting this dopamine

1112
00:39:14.469 –> 00:39:16.070
– from this reward and we know what we

1113
00:39:16.070 –> 00:39:18.230
– know about that is, yeah, it hijacks our

1114
00:39:18.230 –> 00:39:20.010
– attention and our focus and our motivation,

1115
00:39:20.389 –> 00:39:22.494
– right? But then on the flip side, how

1116
00:39:22.494 –> 00:39:24.914
– do you explain the guy who was enhancing

1117
00:39:25.054 –> 00:39:27.135
– his life? Because I think if you’re enhancing

1118
00:39:27.135 –> 00:39:28.655
– your life, it’s a lot easier to stop.

1119
00:39:28.655 –> 00:39:30.655
– Right? At least for me, I was using

1120
00:39:30.655 –> 00:39:32.655
– it as a means, and so it wasn’t

1121
00:39:32.655 –> 00:39:34.914
– this escape. And so without it,

1122
00:39:35.280 –> 00:39:37.039
– I was not left with all of these

1123
00:39:37.039 –> 00:39:37.539
– unpleasant

1124
00:39:37.920 –> 00:39:39.840
– feelings that I was dealing with. I just

1125
00:39:39.840 –> 00:39:42.320
– lost my avenue of enhancement. Speak to that

1126
00:39:42.320 –> 00:39:44.019
– real quick too because I do think

1127
00:39:44.400 –> 00:39:47.119
– women call number two, which was more me,

1128
00:39:47.119 –> 00:39:49.585
– assholes instead of addicts. I just kind of

1129
00:39:49.585 –> 00:39:52.144
– disagree with that assessment because to me, it’s

1130
00:39:52.144 –> 00:39:54.864
– just two different pathologies and two different avenues.

1131
00:39:54.864 –> 00:39:56.644
– And so there’s this insinuation

1132
00:39:57.585 –> 00:40:00.065
– that addicts can be forgiven, assholes cannot. I

1133
00:40:00.065 –> 00:40:01.184
– don’t know. When I look at the two

1134
00:40:01.184 –> 00:40:01.684
– pathologies,

1135
00:40:02.065 –> 00:40:04.144
– they look the same to me. They just

1136
00:40:04.144 –> 00:40:04.889
– show up differently

1137
00:40:06.089 –> 00:40:07.549
– Right? One’s about escapism. One’s about

1138
00:40:08.250 –> 00:40:09.049
– enhancing and getting more. I don’t know. I

1139
00:40:09.049 –> 00:40:09.549
– think,

1140
00:40:11.130 –> 00:40:12.170
– to me, I don’t know why we would

1141
00:40:12.170 –> 00:40:14.170
– call number two an asshole when it just

1142
00:40:14.170 –> 00:40:16.170
– sure looks like another pathology. What what do

1143
00:40:16.170 –> 00:40:18.409
– you say? If you struggle with addiction, chances

1144
00:40:18.409 –> 00:40:20.565
– are you… You’re acting like an asshole at

1145
00:40:20.565 –> 00:40:21.545
– least some of the time.

1146
00:40:22.005 –> 00:40:23.684
– Right? I mean, I think that’s a pretty

1147
00:40:23.684 –> 00:40:24.425
– safe assumption.

1148
00:40:24.804 –> 00:40:26.164
– Yeah. You know, I hear that I hear

1149
00:40:26.164 –> 00:40:29.284
– that bifurcation all the time, because partners, especially

1150
00:40:29.284 –> 00:40:31.204
– early in recovery, they they want a simple

1151
00:40:31.204 –> 00:40:33.144
– explanation. Like, I want a bucket

1152
00:40:33.699 –> 00:40:35.699
– or a simple category through which I can

1153
00:40:35.699 –> 00:40:38.039
– understand Oh, no. That’s better. In comprehensive.

1154
00:40:38.660 –> 00:40:40.760
– Rather than an insatiable

1155
00:40:41.699 –> 00:40:42.099
– Right.

1156
00:40:42.500 –> 00:40:45.699
– Unsatisfied person. Right? Right. Right. Yeah. It’s better

1157
00:40:45.699 –> 00:40:47.699
– if it’s an illness. I would say both

1158
00:40:47.699 –> 00:40:48.360
– are illnesses.

1159
00:40:48.660 –> 00:40:50.014
– Mhmm. Oh, yeah.

1160
00:40:50.315 –> 00:40:52.714
– Yep. Mhmm. Right. And I like your point

1161
00:40:52.714 –> 00:40:54.654
– earlier, you know, whether you go

1162
00:40:55.434 –> 00:40:56.714
– to acting out as a as a way

1163
00:40:56.714 –> 00:40:58.795
– to medicate trauma or if you’re acting out

1164
00:40:58.795 –> 00:41:00.394
– in in the way that you’re describing, you

1165
00:41:00.394 –> 00:41:02.154
– know, out of this desire for more, I

1166
00:41:02.154 –> 00:41:03.929
– I I do think both are very likely

1167
00:41:03.929 –> 00:41:06.170
– the result of some kind of trauma. Yeah.

1168
00:41:06.170 –> 00:41:08.190
– Many guys I talk to, they they don’t

1169
00:41:08.570 –> 00:41:10.650
– have any trouble stopping, which is a whole

1170
00:41:10.650 –> 00:41:13.289
– another podcast episode with which we’ve touched on

1171
00:41:13.289 –> 00:41:15.469
– a little bit already in previous episodes where,

1172
00:41:15.609 –> 00:41:17.144
– you know, this may not be an addiction.

1173
00:41:17.144 –> 00:41:19.144
– I think by talking about addiction too much,

1174
00:41:19.144 –> 00:41:21.164
– we we narrow the range,

1175
00:41:21.465 –> 00:41:24.265
– and complexity that these behaviors can can present

1176
00:41:24.265 –> 00:41:26.505
– with. That is, it may not be addiction,

1177
00:41:26.505 –> 00:41:29.085
– but it might still be compulsive or problematic.

1178
00:41:29.305 –> 00:41:30.985
– Right? Yeah. Yeah. Great. When you when you

1179
00:41:30.985 –> 00:41:32.239
– look at it, I was doing some research.

1180
00:41:32.239 –> 00:41:33.679
– I was I was just at a conference

1181
00:41:33.679 –> 00:41:35.219
– this last week, and

1182
00:41:35.679 –> 00:41:36.880
– I was doing a bunch of stuff on

1183
00:41:36.880 –> 00:41:38.480
– my computer because, like, I was geeking out.

1184
00:41:38.480 –> 00:41:40.719
– And, yeah, basically, you know, with with addiction,

1185
00:41:40.719 –> 00:41:42.719
– it’s this reward pursuit. Right? And what do

1186
00:41:42.719 –> 00:41:45.305
– we know about pursuing the dopamine? Right? It

1187
00:41:45.305 –> 00:41:47.305
– shifts our attention motivation. So it is primarily

1188
00:41:47.305 –> 00:41:47.965
– an escapism

1189
00:41:48.425 –> 00:41:50.985
– kind of, kind of practice, right, an avoidance

1190
00:41:50.985 –> 00:41:51.485
– practice.

1191
00:41:52.025 –> 00:41:52.525
– Compulsive

1192
00:41:52.985 –> 00:41:55.805
– is a lack of impulse control. So essentially,

1193
00:41:56.025 –> 00:41:57.864
– you have the impulse to go get this

1194
00:41:57.864 –> 00:41:58.765
– novel thing.

1195
00:41:59.119 –> 00:42:01.199
– The guy who’s not compulsive says, well, hold

1196
00:42:01.199 –> 00:42:03.039
– on a second. I can’t go get that

1197
00:42:03.039 –> 00:42:04.800
– because then I’d have to lie to my

1198
00:42:04.800 –> 00:42:06.079
– spouse. And if I had lied to my

1199
00:42:06.079 –> 00:42:08.400
– spouse, that would leave me feeling extremely guilty

1200
00:42:08.400 –> 00:42:09.599
– and full of shame. And then if she

1201
00:42:09.599 –> 00:42:10.880
– was to ever find out, I would lose

1202
00:42:10.880 –> 00:42:12.739
– my wife. So that’s impulse control.

1203
00:42:13.144 –> 00:42:14.744
– Right? So so, you know, as you’re looking

1204
00:42:14.744 –> 00:42:16.344
– at all of this, I can see why

1205
00:42:16.344 –> 00:42:18.525
– this field has got so messy

1206
00:42:18.905 –> 00:42:19.405
– because

1207
00:42:19.864 –> 00:42:21.385
– it’s like, is it addiction or is it

1208
00:42:21.385 –> 00:42:23.065
– not? And then is it compulsive or is

1209
00:42:23.065 –> 00:42:24.505
– it not? And then and then is it

1210
00:42:24.505 –> 00:42:26.264
– is it actually a choice or is it

1211
00:42:26.264 –> 00:42:28.609
– not? And I think it’s very challenging

1212
00:42:29.230 –> 00:42:30.589
– when you look at all of that because

1213
00:42:30.589 –> 00:42:32.269
– in many ways, Jeremy, they have a bunch

1214
00:42:32.269 –> 00:42:34.829
– of carryover between all of each other and

1215
00:42:34.829 –> 00:42:36.510
– in many ways, they don’t at all because

1216
00:42:36.510 –> 00:42:38.029
– I do… I think the thing that gets

1217
00:42:38.029 –> 00:42:40.034
– under my skin as you know, you know,

1218
00:42:40.034 –> 00:42:42.114
– I’m very passionate about this is I think

1219
00:42:42.114 –> 00:42:43.255
– that if you’re trying

1220
00:42:43.714 –> 00:42:45.474
– to recover from a problem you don’t have,

1221
00:42:45.474 –> 00:42:46.994
– you don’t recover. I think that’s why we

1222
00:42:46.994 –> 00:42:49.155
– see such a high level of relapse and

1223
00:42:49.155 –> 00:42:51.315
– and slipping is is I think they’re trying

1224
00:42:51.315 –> 00:42:53.635
– to overcome this big t trauma so that

1225
00:42:53.635 –> 00:42:55.530
– they stop acting out from their childhood and

1226
00:42:55.530 –> 00:42:57.369
– it’s… They just can find themselves to a

1227
00:42:57.369 –> 00:42:59.610
– narrow avenue. Speak to that though because that

1228
00:42:59.610 –> 00:43:01.929
– does play very much into our conversation today

1229
00:43:01.929 –> 00:43:03.050
– and I think this is a good place

1230
00:43:03.050 –> 00:43:05.070
– to kind of wrap up the… Our conversation

1231
00:43:05.289 –> 00:43:05.789
– is

1232
00:43:06.570 –> 00:43:08.650
– on that same note as we’re talking about

1233
00:43:08.650 –> 00:43:11.255
– the why, when we’re talking about addictions, compulsions,

1234
00:43:11.635 –> 00:43:12.534
– impulse control,

1235
00:43:13.074 –> 00:43:14.994
– speak to this, especially for a partner who’s

1236
00:43:14.994 –> 00:43:16.835
– listening because this is quite scary because it’s

1237
00:43:16.835 –> 00:43:18.434
– it’s starting to sound like, do we even

1238
00:43:18.434 –> 00:43:20.114
– know what the heck is going on? How

1239
00:43:20.114 –> 00:43:21.714
– do we treat these guys? I want you

1240
00:43:21.714 –> 00:43:23.234
– to speak to both the betrayed partner and

1241
00:43:23.234 –> 00:43:24.809
– the addict listening to this because he’s trying

1242
00:43:24.890 –> 00:43:26.570
– to get in recovery and save his life.

1243
00:43:26.570 –> 00:43:28.969
– She’s trying to decide whether this guy’s safe

1244
00:43:28.969 –> 00:43:31.610
– to stay in. Give us some hope here,

1245
00:43:31.610 –> 00:43:34.329
– Jeremy. Like, it’s so confusing. What what what

1246
00:43:34.329 –> 00:43:36.170
– can you say so that everybody listening to

1247
00:43:36.170 –> 00:43:38.489
– this doesn’t feel like it’s inevitable that they’re

1248
00:43:38.489 –> 00:43:40.664
– they’re gonna relapse again? Yeah.

1249
00:43:41.924 –> 00:43:43.944
– I really want your listeners to hear this.

1250
00:43:44.085 –> 00:43:45.625
– Whenever we go to a doctor,

1251
00:43:46.085 –> 00:43:47.784
– sometimes we want a second opinion.

1252
00:43:48.164 –> 00:43:50.424
– What we hear from a

1253
00:43:50.724 –> 00:43:53.364
– medical doctor versus what we might hear from

1254
00:43:53.364 –> 00:43:54.184
– a homeopathic

1255
00:43:54.484 –> 00:43:57.119
– practitioner, They’re gonna be very different explanations of

1256
00:43:57.119 –> 00:43:59.839
– the problem that we’re facing and by extension

1257
00:43:59.839 –> 00:44:00.980
– what to do about it.

1258
00:44:02.880 –> 00:44:04.099
– I want you…

1259
00:44:04.559 –> 00:44:06.980
– If you’re listening to this, I want you

1260
00:44:07.280 –> 00:44:08.739
– to find a professional

1261
00:44:09.519 –> 00:44:10.019
– who

1262
00:44:11.054 –> 00:44:12.514
– provides you with an explanation

1263
00:44:13.295 –> 00:44:16.355
– that resonates and feels right to you.

1264
00:44:16.894 –> 00:44:19.375
– The richness in our field, there there is

1265
00:44:19.375 –> 00:44:20.655
– a lot of confusion. There are a lot

1266
00:44:20.655 –> 00:44:23.534
– of disparate voices now as our field continues

1267
00:44:23.534 –> 00:44:25.054
– to grow that I don’t think is a

1268
00:44:25.054 –> 00:44:27.409
– bad thing. I think it I agree. Adds

1269
00:44:27.550 –> 00:44:28.050
– richness

1270
00:44:28.670 –> 00:44:31.250
– to our discussion. I think it helps us

1271
00:44:31.869 –> 00:44:34.829
– engage the research more fervently, which is our

1272
00:44:34.829 –> 00:44:35.329
– responsibility

1273
00:44:36.109 –> 00:44:36.769
– as practitioners.

1274
00:44:37.550 –> 00:44:40.565
– And it ultimately helps us to, sharpen our

1275
00:44:40.565 –> 00:44:43.045
– thinking and our care for clients that we

1276
00:44:43.045 –> 00:44:43.545
– see.

1277
00:44:43.924 –> 00:44:44.424
– So

1278
00:44:45.204 –> 00:44:47.525
– I think that the variation in our field

1279
00:44:47.525 –> 00:44:50.804
– is helpful even as it understandably is very

1280
00:44:50.804 –> 00:44:53.444
– confusing. So I want to encourage you to

1281
00:44:53.444 –> 00:44:56.510
– trust yourself. Go to someone whose credentials you

1282
00:44:56.510 –> 00:44:59.730
– know and can trust. Listen for the explanations,

1283
00:45:00.030 –> 00:45:01.949
– not like on on podcast episodes like this

1284
00:45:01.949 –> 00:45:04.050
– or or or books, whatever whatever you’re,

1285
00:45:04.510 –> 00:45:06.989
– consuming as a way of giving yourself support

1286
00:45:06.989 –> 00:45:07.650
– in this.

1287
00:45:08.275 –> 00:45:10.215
– We will be drawn to those practitioners

1288
00:45:10.594 –> 00:45:12.855
– that are right for us. We will be.

1289
00:45:13.074 –> 00:45:15.074
– I really believe that. And I I I

1290
00:45:15.074 –> 00:45:17.875
– think when we engage that journey in that

1291
00:45:17.875 –> 00:45:19.715
– way with that kind of support, we’re gonna

1292
00:45:19.715 –> 00:45:21.599
– find our way. Yeah. And and and I

1293
00:45:21.599 –> 00:45:23.920
– just wanna say one last comment. The reason

1294
00:45:23.920 –> 00:45:25.760
– is because of what we just talked about

1295
00:45:25.760 –> 00:45:28.079
– in this episode, you guys. Sex is such

1296
00:45:28.079 –> 00:45:28.819
– a huge…

1297
00:45:29.440 –> 00:45:31.839
– It’s such a huge thing. Sex sex appeal,

1298
00:45:31.839 –> 00:45:32.980
– novelty, eroticism,

1299
00:45:33.519 –> 00:45:36.815
– it’s it’s it’s a massive piece. Human experience

1300
00:45:37.034 –> 00:45:38.795
– and human… And the and the diversity of

1301
00:45:38.795 –> 00:45:41.914
– humans, massively diverse, so different from one another.

1302
00:45:41.914 –> 00:45:43.914
– And I think that’s why we’re not… I

1303
00:45:43.914 –> 00:45:46.335
– think that’s why this field will forever be

1304
00:45:47.034 –> 00:45:50.494
– very huge and very what feels like ambiguous

1305
00:45:50.690 –> 00:45:53.349
– and gray and confusing and conflicting opinions.

1306
00:45:53.730 –> 00:45:55.170
– I don’t know if it will… We will

1307
00:45:55.170 –> 00:45:56.450
– ever land on it because there’s a lot

1308
00:45:56.450 –> 00:45:58.690
– of disagreement around what sex is, what sex

1309
00:45:58.690 –> 00:46:00.769
– supposed… Is supposed to be, what healthy sex

1310
00:46:00.769 –> 00:46:03.010
– is, what’s not healthy. And again, I think

1311
00:46:03.010 –> 00:46:05.164
– to your point, Jeremy, the growing

1312
00:46:05.465 –> 00:46:07.945
– confusion and the growing number of opinions is

1313
00:46:07.945 –> 00:46:09.704
– a good thing. And I think what you

1314
00:46:09.704 –> 00:46:12.184
– said to the client is so important, which

1315
00:46:12.184 –> 00:46:12.684
– is,

1316
00:46:13.144 –> 00:46:14.985
– you guys… These people are out here trying

1317
00:46:14.985 –> 00:46:17.164
– to help. You take… You you decide.

1318
00:46:17.480 –> 00:46:19.159
– Right? Don’t just let a don’t just let

1319
00:46:19.159 –> 00:46:20.920
– a professional tell you what you are and

1320
00:46:20.920 –> 00:46:22.699
– tell you and your wife what to do.

1321
00:46:22.920 –> 00:46:24.760
– Listen, if it does not resonate and it

1322
00:46:24.760 –> 00:46:27.559
– does not feel like she’s talking about couples

1323
00:46:27.559 –> 00:46:30.105
– that describe a couple like you too, that’s

1324
00:46:30.105 –> 00:46:32.025
– a red flag. If it feels like they’re

1325
00:46:32.025 –> 00:46:33.704
– forcing you to have a problem and you’re

1326
00:46:33.704 –> 00:46:35.625
– just like, I’ve never really done that now.

1327
00:46:35.625 –> 00:46:37.304
– And, yeah, that doesn’t… Yeah. You have you

1328
00:46:37.304 –> 00:46:38.824
– have every right to speak up and say,

1329
00:46:38.824 –> 00:46:40.184
– yeah. I I don’t know if I fall

1330
00:46:40.184 –> 00:46:42.344
– into that category. And if they say, oh,

1331
00:46:42.344 –> 00:46:43.949
– you’re just an addict and a narcissist and

1332
00:46:43.949 –> 00:46:44.609
– you don’t

1333
00:46:44.909 –> 00:46:46.589
– know, which is a common one, you don’t

1334
00:46:46.589 –> 00:46:48.349
– know, but that doesn’t necessarily need to be

1335
00:46:48.349 –> 00:46:50.269
– true. I mean, you know you. You know

1336
00:46:50.269 –> 00:46:51.949
– you better than anybody. Jeremy, where are you

1337
00:46:51.949 –> 00:46:54.030
– licensed? I send all my Californians to you.

1338
00:46:54.030 –> 00:46:56.349
– Are you licensed anywhere else besides California? Where

1339
00:46:56.349 –> 00:46:58.244
– do people come work with? Yeah. I’m in

1340
00:46:58.244 –> 00:46:58.744
– Colorado.

1341
00:46:59.125 –> 00:47:00.424
– I’m also in Pennsylvania.

1342
00:47:00.724 –> 00:47:03.444
– So, and I also provide, coaching to those

1343
00:47:03.444 –> 00:47:05.204
– folks outside of those states. So, if you

1344
00:47:05.204 –> 00:47:06.644
– wanna get in touch, I’d I’d love to

1345
00:47:06.644 –> 00:47:08.324
– hear from you, even if it’s Yeah. What’s

1346
00:47:08.324 –> 00:47:10.005
– the what’s the website, and, how do they

1347
00:47:10.005 –> 00:47:12.900
– find you? My website is Center for Integrative

1348
00:47:13.119 –> 00:47:15.680
– Change, Integrative with a v. Easy way to

1349
00:47:15.680 –> 00:47:17.440
– find me too is just to go to

1350
00:47:17.440 –> 00:47:20.000
– cicfreeconsult.com.

1351
00:47:20.000 –> 00:47:22.400
– You can connect with us there. Awesome. Thanks,

1352
00:47:22.400 –> 00:47:23.445
– Jeremy. This is awesome.

1353
00:47:23.844 –> 00:47:24.344
– Yeah.

1354
00:47:25.525 –> 00:47:27.684
– Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1355
00:47:27.684 –> 00:47:29.445
– are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1356
00:47:29.445 –> 00:47:31.204
– and you’re looking for a recovery group full

1357
00:47:31.204 –> 00:47:34.324
– of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1358
00:47:34.324 –> 00:47:37.125
– We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1359
00:47:37.125 –> 00:47:38.425
– using four day retreats,

1360
00:47:38.859 –> 00:47:41.599
– weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1361
00:47:41.659 –> 00:47:43.739
– If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1362
00:47:43.739 –> 00:47:45.739
– save your marriage, go to our website and

1363
00:47:45.739 –> 00:47:46.639
– fill out our application.

1364
00:47:46.940 –> 00:47:49.420
– If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1365
00:47:49.420 –> 00:47:51.019
– along to a friend in recovery who would

1366
00:47:51.019 –> 00:47:53.019
– benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1367
00:47:53.019 –> 00:47:54.793
– get this information out to as many high

1368
00:47:54.793 –> 00:47:57.033
– achievers as possible, and I can’t do it

1369
00:47:57.033 –> 00:47:58.013
– without your help.