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This topic of deficits is really important because

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as you're kind of alluding to, unless you

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can start actually understanding them and breaking them

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down on a slightly deeper level,

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the behaviors above the surface aren't really going

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to change. And I think that's what you're

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referring to in many ways when you talk

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about not being in real recovery or solid

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recovery.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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high achiever. I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder

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of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for

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high achieving men struggling with sex and porn

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addiction. For more information about joining our group

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or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Most men are not in great recovery, and

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I didn't put myself in this same category.

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Early on, I was trying, but I intellectually

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understood the concepts, but not well enough to

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embody them or put them into practice. There's

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a big difference between intellectually understanding something and

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being able to actually use it effectively.

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And we call this in psychology a deficit.

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A deficit would be something that you were

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simply either taught incorrectly,

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you weren't modeled how to do it, or

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it was just underdeveloped.

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Now in this episode, I'm joined by Chris

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Jones, and we're gonna talk about how deficits

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show up in recovery and what you can

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do to sidestep them so that they don't

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hold you back.

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Chris Jones, you're back. This is awesome. Although

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two years, I don't know if that counts

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as being back or not, but I think

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our last recording was, yeah, almost two years

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ago. It's crazy. But I'm excited for this

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topic today because again, I'm a huge believer

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in most men are not in good recovery.

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Most people have heard me say that before.

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I think they're checking off a lot of

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boxes. I think they're learning a lot, but

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I don't know how much of that actually

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translates into good recovery. But for the sake

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of this discussion, we're gonna talk more so

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around

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deficits

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and how I think a lot of the

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times these men wanna be in good recovery,

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but they don't know how. And a lot

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of it is just a lack of awareness

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and a lack of understanding. You know, I

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think that's the trick with a deficit is

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not only does the deficit have consequences because

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it most certainly does, but I think the

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tricky thing with deficits is we are kind

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of unaware

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of them, hence why they're a deficit in

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the first place. So if the deficits causing

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the acting out behavior and you're unaware of

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it, that's a huge problem. Chris, speak to

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that real quick before we dive in. Yeah.

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I think it's a great starting point because

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quite often, we will be aware or we

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might have been told whether it's by therapist

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or coach something we've read that there's something

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we need to do. Like, an example would

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be, you need to be more authentic. You

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need to share your authentic self with your

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partner rather than hiding stuff away, which we

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associate with addiction.

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But, of course, that's

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making the assumption that you actually know what's

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going on authentically for yourself. So there might

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be a deficit there to what you're saying

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in terms of what we call self contact,

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actually being in touch, slowing down with what's

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going on, what am I thinking, what am

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I feeling.

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And so, yeah, this this topic of deficits

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is really important because as you're kind of

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alluding to, unless you can start actually understanding

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them and breaking them down on a slightly

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deeper level,

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the behaviors above the surface aren't really going

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to change. And I think that's what you're

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referring to in many ways when you talk

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about not being in real recovery or solid

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recovery. So, yeah, very important topic. Yeah. It's

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a one one thing was said to me

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from Michelle May is she told me there

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was, like, just some downtime. I said, hey.

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Can I can I just pick your brain

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for a second? Her and I sat down,

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and I asked her. I said we were

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talking about this word recovery.

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And, you know, I was telling her, I

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said, we're supposed to be recovering what was

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lost, but it's like, you know, I think

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for most of these men, it was lost

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so long ago and or never developed at

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all. Is recovery even the right word, Right?

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You know, maybe discovery

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would actually be more appropriate because did you

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ever know any of these things? And again,

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it's, you know, I have a lot of

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issues with the word recovery because I think

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there is an implied finish line which anybody

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in recovery knows that there isn't one. But

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then I think the other problem is it

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almost makes you feel like there's something you

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should know that you don't.

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And it's almost this embarrassing,

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I guess, kind of shameful energy about it.

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Whereas I think when really looking at it

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as, hey, here's what healthy behavior is.

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Do you do these things? Do you do

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them well because this is what a healthy

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human would do. And I think it's exposes

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a deficit to me in a very non

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judgmental, non shameful way of, Oh, hey, that's

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interesting. Tell me more about that. Right? So

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that is interesting. Tell me more about it.

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That's exactly what we're gonna do. So let's

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kinda go like category by category here. Let's

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first talk about integrity.

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You know, a lot of people think integrity

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is the same as honesty. Those are two

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different words. The definitions are insanely different. You

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know, integrity,

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the definition is a whole not split, right?

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Being the way I was to kinda say

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it is, you have one set of morals

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and values and you never bend them or

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compromise them under any circumstances.

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You embody them every day, all day. That's

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integrity. Now, and again, you've heard this before,

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right? Integrity. If you violate

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it even once a year,

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are you a man of integrity? And I

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think that's the challenge with this especially for

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married men is the second that your wife's

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brain knows

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that you

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can violate your integrity,

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shoot, I don't know if she'll ever really

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be able to

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fully blindly trust your integrity is, okay, well,

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he does it most of the time, but

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when is that day going to be when

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he decides not to? It's really a challenge.

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But Chris, I want to talk about this

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because

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through my recovery,

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I learned that I don't value integrity, that

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honestly, I don't see its utility

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and why everyone likes it so much. I

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know that it's so hard to get out

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of my mouth, but I really had to

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come to terms with the fact that I

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didn't see why integrity was something important

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because I was getting so much out of

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constantly shape shifting, bending, molding, being a chameleon.

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You know, I was like, why be one

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thing all the time when I can be

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whatever the person in front of me wants

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me to be?

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Yeah. And I think, again, similar to what

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I said briefly a minute ago, it's sort

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of when we tell people you need to

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act with integrity. So big part of recovery,

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act with integrity.

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It's again based on that presumption that that's

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one of your values that you actually want

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to live in integrity. And a lot of

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people, I would say, probably haven't

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really slowed down and actually thought about that.

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So a lot of people, even if we

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look at the sexual acting out,

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sobriety

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or steps towards sobriety or recovery or whatever

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word we want to use for that will

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only have occurred after a discovery's occurred. Like,

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most people in this position haven't started recovery

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off their own back. They started because of

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a discovery.

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And so straightaway, it started with an external

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motivation

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if you follow my

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and so I think that relates to this

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integrity question.

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You've kind of just pretty courageously admitted that

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for you, that maybe wasn't an initial value,

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and so it was something you had to

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find. But to your point as well about

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the building trust with the partner again, like

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you said that one of the definitions of

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integrity would be whole. Mhmm. And so you

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can't be

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kind of whole

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or whole most of the time. There's sort

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of a picture even in that word. Yeah.

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Can you imagine on the first date? I'm

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pretty darn honest most of the time. Every

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once in a while, I I fib. And

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when I do fib, I fib in a

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big way. You know? I can't imagine a

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second date's gonna happen after that. No. And

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ironically, you might be being quite honest in

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that situation.

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But, yeah, to your point. Yeah. Probably not

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a good foundation for a relationship.

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So this point of I don't know, I

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guess, how much I need to introduce again

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this idea of the secret sexual basement or

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how Well, I think it's worth talking about

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over and over again because I do I

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think, you know, as I've met many of

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the members of my audience, they've sent me

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emails, different things. I mean, integrity in this

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double life is is a massive issue. I

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think a lot of my listeners and a

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lot of my men are really not addicts

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in the sense that they're addicted to the

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dopamine being released by a lot of these

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behaviors. A lot of my guys are engaging

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in these behaviors

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not for a dopaminergic chemical dependency.

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A lot of it is just,

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I don't know, I can't help myself. The

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opportunity presents itself. And then next thing you

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know, I already did it. And now I

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have something to tell my wife about. Right?

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It's this very opportunistic, serpent substantial thing. So

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to answer your question, how many times do

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we need to keep revisiting this? I don't

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think men can hear it enough.

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Yeah. Okay. So I I'm trained in the

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DST model, deceptive sexuality trauma model by doctor

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Omar Minwalla, and we use this central metaphor

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that I'm sure a lot of people listening

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will be familiar with already.

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But this secret sexual basement. So really highlighting

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that this is a two part problem, not

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a one part problem. This isn't just a

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sexual acting out problem,

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whether it's compulsive, addictive.

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Again, different people would have different phrases they

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would want to use.

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But there's the sexual problem.

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So using this basement metaphor, you've got the

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home above, the family home above,

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where everything appears normal, then you have this

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hidden secret basement underneath

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where one of the people in the home,

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only he knows about it, and he is

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sneaking down into there to engage in secret

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sexual behaviors. So that's this kind of picture

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we have of the basement,

264
00:09:24,214 --> 00:09:26,054
and it's really trying to highlight, as I

265
00:09:26,054 --> 00:09:28,875
said, this two part problem. There's the behaviors

266
00:09:28,934 --> 00:09:30,475
happening inside the basement,

267
00:09:31,149 --> 00:09:32,769
and that's the bit that in

268
00:09:33,149 --> 00:09:36,190
ninety percent of sex addiction programs we focus

269
00:09:36,190 --> 00:09:38,509
on. We obsess about what is happening in

270
00:09:38,509 --> 00:09:39,089
the basement.

271
00:09:39,549 --> 00:09:41,709
And what we're introducing here when we talk

272
00:09:41,709 --> 00:09:44,350
about integrity is this other part, this second

273
00:09:44,350 --> 00:09:46,254
part of the problem, which is the fact

274
00:09:46,254 --> 00:09:48,095
that the basement is hidden in the first

275
00:09:48,095 --> 00:09:49,634
place and the pattern of behaviors

276
00:09:50,095 --> 00:09:51,315
that are hiding the basement.

277
00:09:52,014 --> 00:09:54,514
So a lot of guys will make significant

278
00:09:54,735 --> 00:09:57,294
progress on the sexual acting out, but they

279
00:09:57,294 --> 00:09:58,195
haven't deconstructed

280
00:09:58,575 --> 00:10:01,379
the other behaviors, what we call the integrity

281
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,419
abuse behaviors in the model that we're keeping

282
00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,639
the reality of the basement and the reality

283
00:10:06,639 --> 00:10:08,179
of the home above separate.

284
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,440
So the partner, the wife, the spouse is

285
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,915
living or was living in an intentionally manipulated

286
00:10:15,054 --> 00:10:16,995
reality. They were being led to believe

287
00:10:17,295 --> 00:10:19,394
this home is all there was.

288
00:10:19,934 --> 00:10:21,934
The actual reality of the basement was being

289
00:10:21,934 --> 00:10:25,054
hidden. So, again, that shows a sort of

290
00:10:25,054 --> 00:10:25,554
natural

291
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,759
deficit for whatever reason, and it will be

292
00:10:27,759 --> 00:10:29,459
different reasons for different people,

293
00:10:29,759 --> 00:10:31,620
but that shows that there is a deficit

294
00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:32,740
in integrity.

295
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,919
Mhmm. A deficit in the ability to tell

296
00:10:35,919 --> 00:10:37,440
the truth, but to bring it back to

297
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,284
that wholeness point, to live in a whole

298
00:10:40,284 --> 00:10:42,945
way where my partner fully knows me

299
00:10:43,325 --> 00:10:45,585
and knows the authentic reality of me.

300
00:10:45,965 --> 00:10:48,465
I'm actually hiding a significant part of me,

301
00:10:48,764 --> 00:10:51,164
or maybe I'm even living by certain values

302
00:10:51,164 --> 00:10:53,485
in the home portraying certain values, but living

303
00:10:53,485 --> 00:10:55,379
by different values by what I'm doing in

304
00:10:55,379 --> 00:10:55,959
the basement.

305
00:10:56,579 --> 00:10:58,679
So this integrity issue becomes

306
00:10:59,220 --> 00:10:59,720
critically

307
00:11:00,179 --> 00:11:02,100
important. But, again, I think to the point

308
00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:04,019
we were touching on, for a lot of

309
00:11:04,019 --> 00:11:06,039
guys, the basement in some

310
00:11:06,579 --> 00:11:07,079
way

311
00:11:07,845 --> 00:11:09,464
perhaps started when they were

312
00:11:09,845 --> 00:11:11,704
nine, 10, 11 years old,

313
00:11:12,004 --> 00:11:13,764
when they were ashamed for trying to tell

314
00:11:13,764 --> 00:11:15,524
the truth or there wasn't a culture in

315
00:11:15,524 --> 00:11:18,084
their their family or whatever culture they were

316
00:11:18,084 --> 00:11:20,279
in of being able to talk about sex

317
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:21,960
or be authentic about sex. Yeah, they have

318
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,019
this strong biological desire that they're not allowed

319
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,560
to talk about. They might have gotten in

320
00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,139
trouble for doing something sexual,

321
00:11:30,519 --> 00:11:32,785
porn, masturbation, whatever. You know, if you get

322
00:11:32,785 --> 00:11:34,865
caught at school talking about it or something,

323
00:11:34,865 --> 00:11:36,945
and now you're in trouble at school, so

324
00:11:37,024 --> 00:11:38,945
or at church, whatever, to this point, just

325
00:11:38,945 --> 00:11:41,585
for the audience to understand, you now have

326
00:11:41,585 --> 00:11:44,465
the strong biological desire to have a sexual

327
00:11:44,465 --> 00:11:46,399
experience, but now you can't talk about it.

328
00:11:46,399 --> 00:11:48,080
Well, how's that gonna play out, right? Well,

329
00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:49,839
I can't imagine that well. I mean, and

330
00:11:49,839 --> 00:11:51,200
when you look at it, you know, one

331
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,279
of my favorite things that Omar has in

332
00:11:53,279 --> 00:11:55,519
his training, right, is that it's like this

333
00:11:55,519 --> 00:11:57,774
table in front of the window, and there's

334
00:11:57,774 --> 00:12:00,595
all these beautiful flowers, and it's it's friendship,

335
00:12:00,735 --> 00:12:01,634
it's spirituality,

336
00:12:02,095 --> 00:12:04,894
and faith. It's your health, and fitness, and

337
00:12:04,894 --> 00:12:06,735
wellness, right? So all these pots have these

338
00:12:06,735 --> 00:12:08,894
different stickers on them, and these beautiful flowers.

339
00:12:08,894 --> 00:12:10,754
And then underneath the table,

340
00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:14,639
not getting any water, is this little pot

341
00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:16,320
with a dead flower in it that says

342
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:17,860
sexuality. And it's basically

343
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,559
what he's basically saying is just as important

344
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,200
as friendship and health and wellness and fitness

345
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,774
and and food and nourishment and water is

346
00:12:25,774 --> 00:12:27,774
our sexual needs. It is inside of all

347
00:12:27,774 --> 00:12:29,134
of us, and there's nothing we can do

348
00:12:29,134 --> 00:12:30,654
about it. It is a need that needs

349
00:12:30,654 --> 00:12:32,735
to get met, needs to get met. We

350
00:12:32,735 --> 00:12:34,574
cannot ignore it. And so I think that

351
00:12:34,574 --> 00:12:37,480
that I love that imagery of what happens

352
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:38,940
when we have this need

353
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,240
that I one would argue was actually a

354
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,720
pretty significant need. I mean, especially for a

355
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,159
young man. Oh, my gosh. I think you're

356
00:12:45,159 --> 00:12:47,399
gonna be feeling a sexual desire of some

357
00:12:47,399 --> 00:12:49,414
kind almost daily, and now you can't talk

358
00:12:49,414 --> 00:12:51,334
about it. So again, you know, I just,

359
00:12:51,334 --> 00:12:52,855
for the audience, you can kind of see

360
00:12:52,855 --> 00:12:54,294
where this is going. I just, I just

361
00:12:54,294 --> 00:12:56,214
wanted to kind of further anchor that because

362
00:12:56,214 --> 00:12:58,375
I do think people still hear of this

363
00:12:58,375 --> 00:13:01,495
secret sexual basement and they immediately still go

364
00:13:01,495 --> 00:13:04,639
to pervert. Pervert, liar, cheater. I just wanted

365
00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:06,480
to give a little bit more context as

366
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,759
to this basement was usually invented under a

367
00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:11,440
very, you know, in my outlook of it,

368
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:12,980
a pretty healthy circumstance.

369
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,460
This boy was not a pervert

370
00:13:16,125 --> 00:13:16,625
sex

371
00:13:17,245 --> 00:13:19,004
abuser. That's not what this young man was.

372
00:13:19,004 --> 00:13:21,424
And so when he invented the basement, usually

373
00:13:21,485 --> 00:13:23,965
was not pathological. I think he was bullied

374
00:13:23,965 --> 00:13:24,945
into culturally

375
00:13:25,485 --> 00:13:27,884
and forced to creating a basement. And then

376
00:13:27,884 --> 00:13:30,125
now, later, we're shaming him for having one.

377
00:13:30,125 --> 00:13:31,679
But I think we just kinda gotta go

378
00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,240
back to why the hell did the boy

379
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,639
feel the need to have a secret sexual

380
00:13:36,639 --> 00:13:37,939
basement in the first place?

381
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,980
Yeah. And and again, we are all sexual

382
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,100
gendered beings. It's part of the human experience.

383
00:13:44,544 --> 00:13:47,285
And so if you're suppressing a significant

384
00:13:48,065 --> 00:13:50,544
part of who you are for whatever reason

385
00:13:50,544 --> 00:13:51,985
that might be, and as you said, there's

386
00:13:51,985 --> 00:13:54,544
that beautiful image of that's the one part

387
00:13:54,544 --> 00:13:56,945
of us not getting sunlight, not getting water,

388
00:13:56,945 --> 00:13:57,684
not developing,

389
00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,039
then it makes sense that I then I've

390
00:14:01,039 --> 00:14:01,539
compartmentalized

391
00:14:02,639 --> 00:14:04,240
that, but I still want to act on

392
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,139
sexual urges. So I build a secret basement

393
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,120
as the metaphor goes where I can do

394
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:09,620
that.

395
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:10,500
And

396
00:14:10,865 --> 00:14:14,004
naturally, there becomes a deficit in integrity

397
00:14:14,784 --> 00:14:16,544
because, I mean, we're literally saying it there.

398
00:14:16,544 --> 00:14:19,264
It's a compartment. I'm not whole, and I

399
00:14:19,264 --> 00:14:21,424
cannot speak honestly about it. Yeah. And I

400
00:14:21,424 --> 00:14:23,264
just wanna pause. Just everybody hear that. Right?

401
00:14:23,264 --> 00:14:24,325
Like, this kid

402
00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:28,480
learned to devalue his integrity because he felt

403
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:29,779
very normal

404
00:14:30,639 --> 00:14:31,139
biological

405
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:31,940
desires

406
00:14:32,399 --> 00:14:34,639
and he was in an environment where they

407
00:14:34,639 --> 00:14:37,759
could not be expressed, discussed in this healthy

408
00:14:37,759 --> 00:14:39,440
way so that he could and so he

409
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,095
had to I mean, really, had to do

410
00:14:42,095 --> 00:14:44,195
this secretly. He basically

411
00:14:44,735 --> 00:14:46,975
had to violate his integrity because of the

412
00:14:46,975 --> 00:14:49,455
environment. Does everybody understand? And and so before

413
00:14:49,455 --> 00:14:51,535
this young man would even think, he has

414
00:14:51,535 --> 00:14:53,695
already made the decision. Well, I'm gonna be

415
00:14:53,695 --> 00:14:55,774
in integrity in every other category of my

416
00:14:55,774 --> 00:14:56,309
life except

417
00:14:57,029 --> 00:14:58,549
for this one. So on that side, we

418
00:14:58,549 --> 00:14:59,289
have the

419
00:14:59,750 --> 00:15:01,370
again, I don't wanna go on from

420
00:15:01,830 --> 00:15:04,309
too many tangents. It's it's sometimes difficult not

421
00:15:04,309 --> 00:15:06,389
to with this model, but we would look

422
00:15:06,389 --> 00:15:09,190
at the complex sexuality shaping. So how has

423
00:15:09,190 --> 00:15:11,414
the person's sexuality been shaped? And one of

424
00:15:11,414 --> 00:15:13,115
the things we will often see there,

425
00:15:13,575 --> 00:15:15,414
which is what you're referring to, is the

426
00:15:15,414 --> 00:15:18,554
constriction, sexual constriction. There is not the ability

427
00:15:19,254 --> 00:15:22,154
to authentically act out my sexuality or communicate

428
00:15:22,215 --> 00:15:25,660
my sexuality or negotiate my sexuality with my

429
00:15:25,660 --> 00:15:26,720
partner, for example.

430
00:15:27,259 --> 00:15:28,399
And on the other side,

431
00:15:28,940 --> 00:15:31,680
we have complex gender shaping that occurs.

432
00:15:32,139 --> 00:15:34,379
And this is the same problem, but maybe

433
00:15:34,379 --> 00:15:36,779
a different presentation. And so this might be

434
00:15:36,779 --> 00:15:38,240
the person who has

435
00:15:38,745 --> 00:15:40,904
grown up in a world where women were

436
00:15:40,904 --> 00:15:43,384
very much objectified. Maybe he saw how his

437
00:15:43,384 --> 00:15:45,705
father talked about women. Maybe he saw how

438
00:15:45,705 --> 00:15:47,945
his friends and people on the TV talked

439
00:15:47,945 --> 00:15:50,519
about women and the sort of glamorization of

440
00:15:50,759 --> 00:15:52,759
sexual conquest and that that's what it means

441
00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:55,179
to be a man, to to conquer, to

442
00:15:55,399 --> 00:15:57,639
have power over women, to be the popular

443
00:15:57,639 --> 00:15:58,620
one in that sense.

444
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,160
And so he's maybe built a secret sexual

445
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:02,540
basement. Maybe he's

446
00:16:02,894 --> 00:16:05,935
married to his partner, but he's secretly having

447
00:16:05,935 --> 00:16:09,855
affairs or engaging in whatever sexual infidelities might

448
00:16:09,855 --> 00:16:10,514
have occurred

449
00:16:11,134 --> 00:16:12,815
as a way of soothing that sort of

450
00:16:12,815 --> 00:16:15,375
masculine ego. Mhmm. So you've got two different

451
00:16:15,375 --> 00:16:17,940
sides there, the sexual constriction, the the guy

452
00:16:17,940 --> 00:16:20,340
where it's completely suppressed and hidden. You've then

453
00:16:20,340 --> 00:16:21,879
maybe got sexual entitlement

454
00:16:22,259 --> 00:16:24,660
that comes out of a desire to prove

455
00:16:24,660 --> 00:16:25,799
the person's masculinity.

456
00:16:26,419 --> 00:16:28,259
But they might both be things that really

457
00:16:28,259 --> 00:16:30,495
started at a very young age through that

458
00:16:30,815 --> 00:16:33,294
complex shaping we talk about, but both lead

459
00:16:33,294 --> 00:16:34,595
you to the same place

460
00:16:34,894 --> 00:16:38,014
where you are dealing with a deficit in

461
00:16:38,014 --> 00:16:41,134
integrity, a deficit in wholeness, and a deficit

462
00:16:41,134 --> 00:16:43,534
in the ability to be honest with those

463
00:16:43,534 --> 00:16:45,909
people around you about who you really are

464
00:16:45,909 --> 00:16:47,990
and what you're really doing. It's something I'm

465
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:50,230
very passionate about, Chris, because I feel as

466
00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:52,889
if these men are being accused of,

467
00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:54,570
looked at, and treated

468
00:16:55,029 --> 00:16:55,850
in a way

469
00:16:56,309 --> 00:16:58,164
that I don't think they deserve to be

470
00:16:58,164 --> 00:16:59,684
treated. And hear me out here. Hear me

471
00:16:59,684 --> 00:17:01,445
out here. Because I know those partners listening

472
00:17:01,445 --> 00:17:03,764
to this, they're like, screw this guy. Does

473
00:17:03,764 --> 00:17:05,444
he have any idea what these men have

474
00:17:05,444 --> 00:17:07,444
done to my life? I do understand. I've

475
00:17:07,444 --> 00:17:09,045
done it to my wife. I'm not saying,

476
00:17:09,045 --> 00:17:11,384
but what I've realized though, Chris was

477
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,740
we have sexual needs and desires. Everyone does.

478
00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:18,119
We can't talk about them for a variety

479
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:19,259
of reasons, religious,

480
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,099
school, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

481
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,480
And on top of that, we have this

482
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:24,940
culture basically saying,

483
00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:28,244
I mean, James Bond is frivolously sleeping with

484
00:17:28,244 --> 00:17:30,884
multiple women on every single movie and marrying

485
00:17:30,884 --> 00:17:33,924
none of them. Superbad is a movie about

486
00:17:33,924 --> 00:17:36,244
two kids trying to get laid. Ferris Bueller

487
00:17:36,244 --> 00:17:37,765
is trying to get some here and there.

488
00:17:37,765 --> 00:17:38,585
Like, I mean, just

489
00:17:38,899 --> 00:17:41,380
for the longest time, movie after movie after

490
00:17:41,380 --> 00:17:43,700
movie after movie, you go to college and

491
00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:45,700
again, what is almost every guy doing in

492
00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:47,380
college trying to get his numbers up as

493
00:17:47,380 --> 00:17:49,380
high as he can. I mean, the largely

494
00:17:49,380 --> 00:17:51,059
the reason that he's joining the social clubs

495
00:17:51,059 --> 00:17:52,679
he's joining is to increase

496
00:17:53,204 --> 00:17:55,924
his abilities to do such things. So my

497
00:17:55,924 --> 00:17:57,044
point is, I think we're

498
00:17:57,684 --> 00:18:00,085
it annoys me, I think, how much we

499
00:18:00,085 --> 00:18:03,865
blame these guys for being effed up. When

500
00:18:04,085 --> 00:18:05,845
to me, I look around in the environment,

501
00:18:05,845 --> 00:18:08,400
I'm thinking, why wouldn't they be? I mean,

502
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,900
we don't create a place in a formative

503
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,720
time in life where we need to be

504
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,119
discussing this. This needs to be a open

505
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:16,960
conversation and mom and dad need to be

506
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,480
having it. I mean, women, we need the

507
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:19,380
female perspective

508
00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:21,440
and we need the male perspective. And this

509
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,095
is just a, this should be happening to

510
00:18:23,095 --> 00:18:25,255
every single developing young man. And then on

511
00:18:25,255 --> 00:18:26,775
top of that, we need to talk to

512
00:18:26,775 --> 00:18:29,015
them about, Hey, you're gonna be seeing these

513
00:18:29,015 --> 00:18:30,075
things on television.

514
00:18:30,694 --> 00:18:33,095
That is not real life. These are music

515
00:18:33,095 --> 00:18:34,875
videos. This is not how your adulthood's

516
00:18:35,255 --> 00:18:36,775
gonna go. And by the time you have

517
00:18:36,775 --> 00:18:38,980
a house as big as that guy's house

518
00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:40,740
in the music video, you're probably gonna be

519
00:18:40,740 --> 00:18:43,299
married and have kids. So you going out

520
00:18:43,299 --> 00:18:44,819
and doing what he's doing in the hot

521
00:18:44,819 --> 00:18:46,819
tub is just probably not gonna happen. I

522
00:18:46,819 --> 00:18:48,759
think this just needs to be a discussion

523
00:18:49,059 --> 00:18:50,660
and no one discusses it. Next thing you

524
00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:53,224
know, you're married. I have this mansion and

525
00:18:53,224 --> 00:18:56,184
I have all these unfulfilled fantasies of music

526
00:18:56,184 --> 00:18:58,025
videos that I feel like were supposed to

527
00:18:58,025 --> 00:18:59,545
happen for me. So what do I do?

528
00:18:59,545 --> 00:19:00,125
I cheat.

529
00:19:00,505 --> 00:19:02,025
You know, I've latched onto these things. I

530
00:19:02,025 --> 00:19:03,545
had no place to really talk about them.

531
00:19:03,545 --> 00:19:05,384
I've had this secret little fantasy in my

532
00:19:05,384 --> 00:19:08,079
head of how awesome my life was going

533
00:19:08,079 --> 00:19:10,319
to be when I became wealthy. And then

534
00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:12,880
I get there and those fantasies are still

535
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,799
there. And again, this is, you know, kind

536
00:19:14,799 --> 00:19:16,480
of coming back to this integrity issue. I

537
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:17,700
now have to make a decision.

538
00:19:18,575 --> 00:19:20,974
Do I choose the thing that I've been

539
00:19:20,974 --> 00:19:23,375
fantasizing about for fourteen years and I now

540
00:19:23,375 --> 00:19:25,375
finally have the means to do it? Or

541
00:19:25,375 --> 00:19:27,535
do I act in alignment to my morals

542
00:19:27,535 --> 00:19:29,214
and values? But again, it begs this big

543
00:19:29,214 --> 00:19:31,214
question of, did I even have those morals

544
00:19:31,214 --> 00:19:33,214
and values to begin with? And vulnerably, I'm

545
00:19:33,214 --> 00:19:35,850
going to admit to everyone, I didn't. I

546
00:19:35,850 --> 00:19:37,690
wanted to be whatever the person in front

547
00:19:37,690 --> 00:19:39,610
of me wanted me to be. That's my

548
00:19:39,610 --> 00:19:41,529
morals and values. And I'd be lying to

549
00:19:41,529 --> 00:19:43,930
say, Chris, that I've recovered from that because

550
00:19:43,930 --> 00:19:45,450
that's just not true. I live my first

551
00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:47,390
twenty years of my life being a sellout,

552
00:19:47,865 --> 00:19:50,184
and it's very hard for me now to

553
00:19:50,184 --> 00:19:52,664
stop doing that. A successful life is, you

554
00:19:52,664 --> 00:19:55,464
know, in my definition is how many guys

555
00:19:55,464 --> 00:19:57,305
envy me and how many women wish they

556
00:19:57,305 --> 00:19:59,704
could be with me. And that is wrong.

557
00:19:59,704 --> 00:20:01,305
I'm trying to change that, but I just

558
00:20:01,464 --> 00:20:03,369
That was my mantra for the first thirty

559
00:20:03,369 --> 00:20:05,710
years of my existence. And so, to

560
00:20:06,250 --> 00:20:07,390
stop that is

561
00:20:07,769 --> 00:20:10,089
proving to be more challenging. Now, am I

562
00:20:10,089 --> 00:20:12,910
acting on it? No. But is it my

563
00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:14,029
first thought?

564
00:20:14,569 --> 00:20:16,994
Most of the time, unfortunately, yes. You know,

565
00:20:16,994 --> 00:20:18,835
it's my first go to thought and I

566
00:20:18,835 --> 00:20:20,214
have to then reinject

567
00:20:20,595 --> 00:20:23,234
the concept of integrity later even though it's

568
00:20:23,234 --> 00:20:26,195
not my innate go to strategy. Does that

569
00:20:26,195 --> 00:20:26,855
make sense?

570
00:20:27,234 --> 00:20:29,394
It does. And I kind of appreciate how

571
00:20:29,394 --> 00:20:31,394
you're sharing that. And I would just put

572
00:20:31,394 --> 00:20:33,289
out there that if I were to hear

573
00:20:33,289 --> 00:20:35,369
you say instead, like, no. That's completely gone

574
00:20:35,369 --> 00:20:37,390
now. No. I don't think about that anymore.

575
00:20:37,849 --> 00:20:39,609
That's where the therapist and me would wanna

576
00:20:39,609 --> 00:20:41,210
be like, okay. Tell me more about that.

577
00:20:41,210 --> 00:20:43,130
Let's slow down a bit because I'm always

578
00:20:43,130 --> 00:20:45,305
a little bit skeptical about the idea. Oh,

579
00:20:45,305 --> 00:20:46,744
and one thing I'll say on that too

580
00:20:46,744 --> 00:20:49,144
is even for the guy who does actually

581
00:20:49,144 --> 00:20:50,904
feel like it's out of his life, I

582
00:20:50,904 --> 00:20:52,265
think the thing that I would say to

583
00:20:52,265 --> 00:20:52,924
him is,

584
00:20:53,464 --> 00:20:55,865
Yes, for now. But just wait until you're

585
00:20:55,865 --> 00:20:57,644
in a position where you feel unappreciated,

586
00:20:58,025 --> 00:20:58,525
unadmired.

587
00:20:59,149 --> 00:21:01,250
Your last two attempts at things have failed,

588
00:21:01,630 --> 00:21:03,329
will your brain start to

589
00:21:03,630 --> 00:21:05,710
want to do some of those old things

590
00:21:05,710 --> 00:21:07,149
again? I think that's the thing that I

591
00:21:07,149 --> 00:21:09,470
would introduce to guys is, you know, the

592
00:21:09,470 --> 00:21:11,730
relapse rate's where it is for a reason.

593
00:21:11,825 --> 00:21:13,664
It's because it's easy to be sober when

594
00:21:13,664 --> 00:21:15,505
you're trying to be sober. It's when you're

595
00:21:15,505 --> 00:21:16,964
going back to living your life

596
00:21:17,345 --> 00:21:20,144
and feeling unpleasant feelings, and then your brain

597
00:21:20,144 --> 00:21:22,305
says, I know how I can fulfill that.

598
00:21:22,305 --> 00:21:23,904
I go off here, I show off, I

599
00:21:23,904 --> 00:21:25,710
do all this. And then I feel really

600
00:21:25,710 --> 00:21:28,369
respected, admired when I'm doing it. And that's

601
00:21:28,430 --> 00:21:30,589
one step in that direction. And then if

602
00:21:30,589 --> 00:21:32,829
you keep going in that direction, yes, something

603
00:21:32,829 --> 00:21:35,309
something sexual might happen. Anything else on integrity

604
00:21:35,309 --> 00:21:36,529
before we go into intimacy?

605
00:21:37,115 --> 00:21:39,275
No. I I think it's just good just

606
00:21:39,275 --> 00:21:41,275
to riff on that point a little bit

607
00:21:41,275 --> 00:21:43,275
more of the way I communicate that to

608
00:21:43,275 --> 00:21:44,494
my clients is

609
00:21:44,955 --> 00:21:47,195
it's when the pressure is applied again. Yeah.

610
00:21:47,195 --> 00:21:48,875
So what you're saying there, it's like, I

611
00:21:48,875 --> 00:21:50,634
can feel like I'm in a really solid

612
00:21:50,634 --> 00:21:52,279
place. I can feel really good. I can

613
00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:54,140
feel like I've left those things behind.

614
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,059
But when we're talking about

615
00:21:56,599 --> 00:21:58,220
what we call sort of personality,

616
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,440
personality level things, things that really have formed

617
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,839
my personality template and have shaped over many,

618
00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:05,579
many years,

619
00:22:06,055 --> 00:22:07,755
When a bit of pressure is applied,

620
00:22:08,375 --> 00:22:10,134
that's when I might revert back to those

621
00:22:10,134 --> 00:22:12,234
things. And if I'm in that sort of

622
00:22:12,855 --> 00:22:15,275
complacent place of I've got this,

623
00:22:15,734 --> 00:22:17,815
I'm under control, I might not notice it

624
00:22:17,815 --> 00:22:19,974
coming. Whereas if I'm in the humble place

625
00:22:19,974 --> 00:22:22,210
of, I'm in a healthy place right now,

626
00:22:22,210 --> 00:22:24,929
I'm progressing, I'm doing well, but I know

627
00:22:24,929 --> 00:22:26,609
that that part of me can sort of

628
00:22:26,609 --> 00:22:28,289
still be prowling in the background and I

629
00:22:28,289 --> 00:22:30,049
need to be aware of it. I'm gonna

630
00:22:30,049 --> 00:22:31,890
be much more likely to respond well to

631
00:22:31,890 --> 00:22:34,835
it when it comes up. And then one

632
00:22:34,835 --> 00:22:36,515
other point I just wanted to add because

633
00:22:36,515 --> 00:22:38,515
I don't wanna do a disservice to the

634
00:22:38,515 --> 00:22:40,195
partners here. I think we've had a good

635
00:22:40,195 --> 00:22:41,654
conversation about how

636
00:22:42,115 --> 00:22:43,974
men can be pathologized

637
00:22:44,355 --> 00:22:46,434
in many ways where when we zoom out

638
00:22:46,434 --> 00:22:48,355
and we see the shaping that's occurred, it

639
00:22:48,355 --> 00:22:49,654
can really help us

640
00:22:50,259 --> 00:22:52,039
understand how some of the conditions

641
00:22:52,660 --> 00:22:55,059
that lead to the secret sexual basement are

642
00:22:55,059 --> 00:22:55,559
almost

643
00:22:56,339 --> 00:22:59,299
society level conditions that we're dealing with. And

644
00:22:59,299 --> 00:23:01,299
so in many ways, it's no wonder that

645
00:23:01,299 --> 00:23:03,400
so many men end up in this situation.

646
00:23:04,144 --> 00:23:06,644
But I also just want to acknowledge that

647
00:23:06,944 --> 00:23:09,204
we are still responsible for our own actions.

648
00:23:09,345 --> 00:23:10,724
And so for a partner,

649
00:23:11,424 --> 00:23:12,865
I have found actually for many of the

650
00:23:12,865 --> 00:23:14,625
partners of the guys I work with and

651
00:23:14,625 --> 00:23:16,789
and couples I work with, it's actually very

652
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:18,549
helpful for the partner to understand some of

653
00:23:18,549 --> 00:23:20,809
that stuff. It can give them more understanding

654
00:23:20,950 --> 00:23:23,269
of it's not something uniquely wrong with me.

655
00:23:23,269 --> 00:23:25,349
I'm not the problem. There's other things going

656
00:23:25,349 --> 00:23:25,929
on there.

657
00:23:26,470 --> 00:23:28,309
But it's also hard for the partner to

658
00:23:28,309 --> 00:23:30,694
have too much compassion for that when they

659
00:23:30,694 --> 00:23:33,654
have experienced years of being lied to being

660
00:23:33,654 --> 00:23:35,974
manipulated and deceived. And But I don't think

661
00:23:35,974 --> 00:23:37,894
women are I think here's what it really

662
00:23:37,894 --> 00:23:39,434
hits partners hard is,

663
00:23:39,734 --> 00:23:42,054
I think they knew about this stuff, but

664
00:23:42,054 --> 00:23:43,994
I think they thought it was, like,

665
00:23:44,549 --> 00:23:47,269
one off things or little jokes. Like I

666
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:49,610
don't think they really knew that

667
00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:50,730
from age

668
00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:51,769
12

669
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:53,450
to 25,

670
00:23:53,670 --> 00:23:55,930
guys pretty much think about

671
00:23:56,565 --> 00:23:57,065
conquering

672
00:23:57,684 --> 00:23:59,524
women in their social I mean, it's just

673
00:23:59,605 --> 00:24:02,664
it's a massive, massive, massive thought

674
00:24:02,964 --> 00:24:04,884
that is happening, you know, less for some

675
00:24:04,884 --> 00:24:06,565
men and more for others. Kind of depends

676
00:24:06,565 --> 00:24:08,164
on your social circle, I think, and what

677
00:24:08,164 --> 00:24:10,019
you subscribe to. But I think that's the

678
00:24:10,019 --> 00:24:11,860
tough part, Chris, is I think they really

679
00:24:11,860 --> 00:24:12,759
start to understand,

680
00:24:13,460 --> 00:24:14,660
you know, when they sit around at the

681
00:24:14,660 --> 00:24:16,920
lunch table in middle school, they're talking about

682
00:24:17,059 --> 00:24:19,460
getting their hair braided and these new bell

683
00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:21,944
bottoms at this one store. Yeah, you go

684
00:24:21,944 --> 00:24:23,944
over to the guys' table and yeah, it's

685
00:24:23,944 --> 00:24:26,204
a very different conversation, right? They're objectifying

686
00:24:26,585 --> 00:24:29,065
women walking around, they're talking about who did

687
00:24:29,065 --> 00:24:30,744
what sexually with one. You know, it's just,

688
00:24:30,744 --> 00:24:33,304
it's two very different conversations happening in the

689
00:24:33,304 --> 00:24:34,825
two genders. And I think that's the thing

690
00:24:34,825 --> 00:24:36,599
that I think really hits them hard is

691
00:24:36,839 --> 00:24:38,599
cultural or not. I think it pisses them

692
00:24:38,599 --> 00:24:41,160
off because it's like, it's just very offensive

693
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,259
and off putting to come to this realization

694
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:43,980
that

695
00:24:44,279 --> 00:24:46,440
these aren't just jokes and movies, that this

696
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,160
is actually having a very real effect on

697
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,734
the male psychology and how they see women

698
00:24:51,734 --> 00:24:53,575
and how they see sexuality and how they

699
00:24:53,575 --> 00:24:55,974
see integrity. I think that's really the issue

700
00:24:55,974 --> 00:24:58,454
here is from an early age, a lot

701
00:24:58,454 --> 00:25:01,015
of these men are like, I'm gonna say

702
00:25:01,015 --> 00:25:03,015
one thing and do another and they're pretty

703
00:25:03,015 --> 00:25:03,515
well

704
00:25:04,220 --> 00:25:05,980
ingrained in that pattern by the time they're

705
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:08,700
12. So I mean, why was integrity supposed

706
00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:10,320
to be in them when

707
00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:13,339
they just started lying and kept lying? And

708
00:25:13,339 --> 00:25:15,580
then that transitioned into image management, which is

709
00:25:15,580 --> 00:25:17,259
lying. I mean, that's what image management is,

710
00:25:17,259 --> 00:25:19,345
it's manipulating how people see you. And then

711
00:25:19,345 --> 00:25:20,865
it just keeps going and going and going.

712
00:25:20,865 --> 00:25:22,884
And by the time they're in their 30s,

713
00:25:23,184 --> 00:25:24,785
I think a lot of men don't even

714
00:25:24,785 --> 00:25:26,785
really know what integrity is or see any

715
00:25:26,785 --> 00:25:28,625
sort of utility and value in it. I

716
00:25:28,625 --> 00:25:31,025
think they think integrity is the one they

717
00:25:31,025 --> 00:25:33,250
are to their wife and kids. You see

718
00:25:33,250 --> 00:25:34,609
what I'm saying? Like, I think they think,

719
00:25:34,609 --> 00:25:35,970
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Integrity. I know what

720
00:25:35,970 --> 00:25:37,589
that is. I act like that sometimes.

721
00:25:37,890 --> 00:25:39,009
You see what I'm saying? Like, it's like,

722
00:25:39,009 --> 00:25:40,630
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a man of integrity

723
00:25:40,769 --> 00:25:42,849
in these situations. You bet. I'm a kick

724
00:25:42,849 --> 00:25:43,589
ass father.

725
00:25:43,890 --> 00:25:44,950
I'm a great husband.

726
00:25:45,325 --> 00:25:48,045
And then when I'm everywhere else, I use

727
00:25:48,045 --> 00:25:50,285
something different. But again, integrity is not a

728
00:25:50,285 --> 00:25:52,125
gear that you shift into when you need

729
00:25:52,125 --> 00:25:53,884
to shift into it. To your point, you

730
00:25:53,884 --> 00:25:55,725
either understand that that is how the world

731
00:25:55,725 --> 00:25:58,445
operates at its best as every person being

732
00:25:58,445 --> 00:25:58,945
integrity,

733
00:25:59,410 --> 00:26:00,930
or you just don't see the value in

734
00:26:00,930 --> 00:26:02,529
utility in it. I mean, it's just really

735
00:26:02,529 --> 00:26:04,049
one of those two options. And it's sad.

736
00:26:04,049 --> 00:26:05,569
But yeah, the poor partner is like, I

737
00:26:05,569 --> 00:26:07,409
just I think my wife, it was just

738
00:26:07,490 --> 00:26:09,269
it was really hard for me to watch

739
00:26:09,730 --> 00:26:10,710
her realize

740
00:26:11,654 --> 00:26:12,154
how

741
00:26:12,775 --> 00:26:13,275
men

742
00:26:13,654 --> 00:26:15,095
are and what it's like to be a

743
00:26:15,095 --> 00:26:16,615
young man. I think it was just I

744
00:26:16,615 --> 00:26:17,815
think she knew it was a thing, but

745
00:26:17,815 --> 00:26:20,055
I don't think she really knew until now.

746
00:26:20,055 --> 00:26:21,494
And I think, you know, just to empathize

747
00:26:21,494 --> 00:26:23,734
with the partners, I think just because they

748
00:26:23,734 --> 00:26:25,575
hear about this doesn't mean that they don't

749
00:26:25,575 --> 00:26:27,119
hold it against you. I mean, in the

750
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,960
end, all of us have the choice to

751
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,119
participate or not. And just because we chose

752
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,059
to participate doesn't mean we're gonna get forgiven.

753
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,779
Right? Yeah. And so when we think of

754
00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:37,599
what's occurring now in the present in the

755
00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:40,484
relationship and the traumatic impacts of that, We

756
00:26:40,484 --> 00:26:42,325
can kinda hold both things. We can look

757
00:26:42,325 --> 00:26:44,005
at the origin story if you like. We

758
00:26:44,005 --> 00:26:45,224
can understand that

759
00:26:45,684 --> 00:26:47,765
he is perhaps a product of some of

760
00:26:47,765 --> 00:26:49,444
this shaping and some of these things we're

761
00:26:49,444 --> 00:26:50,265
talking about,

762
00:26:50,884 --> 00:26:52,805
and he is not the victim in the

763
00:26:52,805 --> 00:26:54,904
present. Yeah. He's the one that's being victimized

764
00:26:55,045 --> 00:26:55,545
by

765
00:26:55,940 --> 00:26:57,779
that shaping that's occurred to him and the

766
00:26:57,779 --> 00:27:00,500
behaviors that he's engaged in. So it's really

767
00:27:00,500 --> 00:27:02,019
important that we can sit with both of

768
00:27:02,019 --> 00:27:04,179
those things without the noise and the You

769
00:27:04,179 --> 00:27:06,179
know, my wife reminds me all the time,

770
00:27:06,179 --> 00:27:08,595
intent and impact are two different things. And

771
00:27:08,595 --> 00:27:11,554
it is so true, right? You can not

772
00:27:11,554 --> 00:27:12,775
have had the intent

773
00:27:13,794 --> 00:27:16,914
of ruining your relationship and the trust and

774
00:27:16,914 --> 00:27:18,294
potentially the family unit

775
00:27:18,914 --> 00:27:19,414
and

776
00:27:19,875 --> 00:27:21,095
ruin the relationship,

777
00:27:21,474 --> 00:27:23,075
the family unit and trust. You know, so

778
00:27:23,075 --> 00:27:24,759
it's like, my wife knows that I did

779
00:27:24,759 --> 00:27:26,680
not intend to do this. She knows, but

780
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,359
it does not mean that that was not

781
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,359
the impact. And that is something that, you

782
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,119
know, we really, we try to hold both

783
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:33,559
of those of, Hey, I get that you

784
00:27:33,559 --> 00:27:34,920
did not wanna do this. And I get

785
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,599
that actually if you had it your way,

786
00:27:36,599 --> 00:27:38,714
you wouldn't have. I get that. And it

787
00:27:38,714 --> 00:27:40,015
doesn't change the fact

788
00:27:40,474 --> 00:27:42,894
that I was still affected as if you

789
00:27:43,035 --> 00:27:45,115
did have the intent of doing it. Same

790
00:27:45,115 --> 00:27:47,115
effect whether, you know, she always reminds me

791
00:27:47,115 --> 00:27:48,394
that I think that's a really big thing

792
00:27:48,394 --> 00:27:50,315
for couples to respond. Is you do have

793
00:27:50,315 --> 00:27:52,240
to hold both and that's I think it's

794
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,159
really hard to do when both people are

795
00:27:54,159 --> 00:27:56,259
hurting. So transitioning into intimacy,

796
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,159
I'm gonna have you take the lead here,

797
00:27:58,159 --> 00:28:00,319
brother. If I, you know, integrity, I think

798
00:28:00,319 --> 00:28:02,659
I've learned a little bit more about, but

799
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,714
intimacy. Oh, man. As somebody who has massive

800
00:28:05,855 --> 00:28:09,214
trust issues, as somebody who is narcissistic in

801
00:28:09,214 --> 00:28:11,134
way too many areas of my life where

802
00:28:11,134 --> 00:28:13,534
I trust myself only to get my needs

803
00:28:13,534 --> 00:28:15,855
met and no one else, having no trust

804
00:28:15,855 --> 00:28:18,355
and then me looking to me for everything

805
00:28:18,869 --> 00:28:21,509
really has severed my ability to have intimate

806
00:28:21,509 --> 00:28:24,069
connections with everyone. My own parents, my family

807
00:28:24,069 --> 00:28:25,930
members, my wife, my friends,

808
00:28:26,390 --> 00:28:28,150
me and you. I'm gonna let you take

809
00:28:28,150 --> 00:28:30,069
the total lead here in the intimacy category

810
00:28:30,069 --> 00:28:31,509
because I have I have a lot of

811
00:28:31,509 --> 00:28:32,009
pathology

812
00:28:32,309 --> 00:28:35,134
that really makes intimate connections challenging for me.

813
00:28:35,134 --> 00:28:37,615
So why don't you introduce to and, again,

814
00:28:37,615 --> 00:28:39,375
just to remind the audience, we're talking about

815
00:28:39,375 --> 00:28:39,875
deficits.

816
00:28:40,335 --> 00:28:41,554
So why don't you introduce

817
00:28:41,855 --> 00:28:43,714
to us when we're talking about intimacy,

818
00:28:44,095 --> 00:28:46,575
what is the deficit we're seeing here, and

819
00:28:46,575 --> 00:28:48,174
how do guys kind of integrate that into

820
00:28:48,174 --> 00:28:48,835
their recovery?

821
00:28:49,559 --> 00:28:52,619
Yeah. Right. So, yeah, started with first deficit,

822
00:28:53,559 --> 00:28:55,740
integrity. Now moving on to intimacy.

823
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,839
And intimacy is an interesting one because everyone

824
00:28:58,839 --> 00:29:00,599
knows the word, but I would argue very

825
00:29:00,599 --> 00:29:03,240
few people know what it really is in

826
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:04,059
this context.

827
00:29:05,394 --> 00:29:07,394
So I would suggest that for a very

828
00:29:07,394 --> 00:29:08,775
high proportion of men,

829
00:29:09,315 --> 00:29:10,775
if you were to ask them,

830
00:29:11,234 --> 00:29:14,214
what is the intimacy like in your relationship?

831
00:29:14,434 --> 00:29:15,815
What's your level of intimacy?

832
00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:19,019
They went to the question as how often

833
00:29:19,019 --> 00:29:21,340
are you having sex? Yep. Oh, yeah. Once

834
00:29:21,340 --> 00:29:23,099
a week, twice a week. Yeah. Exactly. What's

835
00:29:23,099 --> 00:29:25,099
the intimacy like? You know, once a week.

836
00:29:25,099 --> 00:29:26,079
Yeah. Right.

837
00:29:26,380 --> 00:29:27,119
And so

838
00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:30,160
when we then maybe start engaging with some

839
00:29:30,434 --> 00:29:32,835
therapeutic work or reading some books or developing

840
00:29:32,835 --> 00:29:34,994
our knowledge a little bit, we then move

841
00:29:34,994 --> 00:29:36,674
to this. Oh, okay. I had it wrong.

842
00:29:36,674 --> 00:29:39,075
Okay. Intimacy is more than just sex. It

843
00:29:39,075 --> 00:29:39,974
also means

844
00:29:40,355 --> 00:29:42,514
asking my partner how she's doing or buying

845
00:29:42,514 --> 00:29:45,315
her flowers or talking about feelings. And so

846
00:29:45,315 --> 00:29:47,390
we have that idea of, okay. Now I

847
00:29:47,390 --> 00:29:48,609
get it. That's what intimacy

848
00:29:49,390 --> 00:29:51,490
is. There's some truth in that, but

849
00:29:51,950 --> 00:29:53,470
I wanna say to people when we're in

850
00:29:53,470 --> 00:29:56,269
that place, we're still missing the the building

851
00:29:56,269 --> 00:29:58,529
block, the actual starting point of intimacy,

852
00:29:59,230 --> 00:30:01,934
which is intimacy with the self. So I

853
00:30:02,015 --> 00:30:03,215
was touching on it a bit at the

854
00:30:03,215 --> 00:30:04,894
start of this idea of where you need

855
00:30:04,894 --> 00:30:07,215
to share your feelings with your partner. Great.

856
00:30:07,215 --> 00:30:08,735
But what if I don't actually know what

857
00:30:08,735 --> 00:30:10,495
I'm feeling? There's a lot of guys I

858
00:30:10,495 --> 00:30:12,015
work with. If you say, okay. How are

859
00:30:12,015 --> 00:30:12,674
you feeling?

860
00:30:13,215 --> 00:30:13,715
Fine.

861
00:30:15,230 --> 00:30:18,029
Any more than that? Not really. Okay. It's

862
00:30:18,029 --> 00:30:19,549
been a good week. Like that that's the

863
00:30:19,549 --> 00:30:21,710
level of what I'm feeling. Mhmm. So if

864
00:30:21,710 --> 00:30:23,069
you're then saying to that guy to be

865
00:30:23,069 --> 00:30:24,829
intimate with your wife, go and share how

866
00:30:24,829 --> 00:30:26,829
you're feeling. If all he's got is I'm

867
00:30:26,829 --> 00:30:27,329
fine,

868
00:30:27,710 --> 00:30:29,569
that's not really an intimate connection.

869
00:30:29,944 --> 00:30:33,464
So intimacy really starts with the self or

870
00:30:33,464 --> 00:30:35,325
what I call self contact.

871
00:30:35,865 --> 00:30:37,865
And so a huge part of the program

872
00:30:37,865 --> 00:30:38,924
I work with guys

873
00:30:39,304 --> 00:30:40,765
is really learning

874
00:30:41,704 --> 00:30:43,085
to speak the language

875
00:30:43,384 --> 00:30:45,919
of emotion if you like, but really starting

876
00:30:45,919 --> 00:30:47,299
it in that place of

877
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:50,740
slowing down and getting into self contact.

878
00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:53,299
So what is going on for me

879
00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:56,000
right now in this moment? What am I

880
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,919
thinking? What am I feeling? We have this

881
00:30:57,919 --> 00:31:00,980
really great acronym, very easy to remember, WTF.

882
00:31:01,795 --> 00:31:03,474
So stands for what am I thinking? What

883
00:31:03,474 --> 00:31:04,295
am I feeling?

884
00:31:04,674 --> 00:31:07,154
And for obvious reasons, it's very easy to

885
00:31:07,154 --> 00:31:09,075
remember as well. You can always just think

886
00:31:09,075 --> 00:31:10,214
WTF, WTF.

887
00:31:10,755 --> 00:31:13,075
But particularly for men linked to some of

888
00:31:13,075 --> 00:31:14,855
that shaping we've spoken about,

889
00:31:15,299 --> 00:31:18,580
how often do men slow down and actually

890
00:31:18,580 --> 00:31:20,500
get in self contact? Mhmm. What am I

891
00:31:20,500 --> 00:31:21,880
thinking? What am I feeling?

892
00:31:22,580 --> 00:31:25,400
Versus how often are we doing and achieving

893
00:31:25,860 --> 00:31:28,180
and trying to impress people, trying to get

894
00:31:28,180 --> 00:31:29,940
a raise at work, trying to get tasks

895
00:31:29,940 --> 00:31:32,515
done. We tend to default to the doing

896
00:31:32,515 --> 00:31:34,695
rather than the slowing down. And

897
00:31:34,995 --> 00:31:38,115
I kinda hate cheesy therapy phrases. There's that

898
00:31:38,115 --> 00:31:39,955
one of, are you a human being or

899
00:31:39,955 --> 00:31:42,195
a human doing? Mhmm. But there is a

900
00:31:42,195 --> 00:31:43,315
lot of truth in it even though I

901
00:31:43,315 --> 00:31:44,595
cringe a bit when I hear it of

902
00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:47,000
Yeah. But I mean, for my population, high

903
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,980
achievers, entrepreneurs, that is it's not as cliche

904
00:31:50,039 --> 00:31:52,839
because I think Yeah. It's very present for

905
00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:54,680
them. They do way more than they be.

906
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,579
Most of them actually have demonized being and

907
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,019
avoid being. Yeah.

908
00:31:59,644 --> 00:32:02,204
Yeah. And and so that developing that self

909
00:32:02,204 --> 00:32:02,704
contact

910
00:32:03,164 --> 00:32:04,625
that's not to do with

911
00:32:05,085 --> 00:32:07,565
getting a task done, achieving something, but just

912
00:32:07,565 --> 00:32:10,044
for the sake of being intimate with the

913
00:32:10,044 --> 00:32:11,984
self and knowing what's going on,

914
00:32:12,490 --> 00:32:15,369
that gives so many insights to the person

915
00:32:15,369 --> 00:32:15,869
of

916
00:32:16,649 --> 00:32:18,730
when we're thinking about sexual acting out or

917
00:32:18,730 --> 00:32:21,369
we're thinking about the integrity of these behaviors,

918
00:32:21,369 --> 00:32:22,669
the lying, the deception.

919
00:32:23,210 --> 00:32:25,130
It can give so much insight into why

920
00:32:25,130 --> 00:32:27,625
I'm doing those things. So, okay, I lied

921
00:32:27,625 --> 00:32:28,845
to my wife about

922
00:32:29,305 --> 00:32:30,744
what time I was gonna be home from

923
00:32:30,744 --> 00:32:32,984
work, let's say. Why did I do that?

924
00:32:32,984 --> 00:32:34,904
What was I thinking? What was I feeling?

925
00:32:34,904 --> 00:32:36,664
What was going on? What was I scared

926
00:32:36,664 --> 00:32:38,984
of? What kind of soothing did it give

927
00:32:38,984 --> 00:32:40,505
me to tell that lie? How did it

928
00:32:40,505 --> 00:32:41,325
make me feel?

929
00:32:41,869 --> 00:32:43,950
And so these are skills where, again, there's

930
00:32:43,950 --> 00:32:46,910
usually a significant deficit and perhaps to your

931
00:32:46,910 --> 00:32:49,570
point there, perhaps particularly with the the clientele

932
00:32:49,630 --> 00:32:51,650
you work with Mhmm. Of

933
00:32:52,190 --> 00:32:54,529
really knowing what's going on rather than just

934
00:32:54,634 --> 00:32:56,335
sort of jumping to the next task.

935
00:32:56,795 --> 00:32:57,535
And so

936
00:32:57,835 --> 00:33:00,654
we might even find that when we're

937
00:33:01,275 --> 00:33:03,134
first challenged with the idea of being

938
00:33:03,434 --> 00:33:04,494
authentic and honest,

939
00:33:05,035 --> 00:33:07,195
we might just then start throwing stuff at

940
00:33:07,195 --> 00:33:09,275
our partner, for example, trying the whole radical

941
00:33:09,275 --> 00:33:11,809
honesty thing. But even then, that can betray

942
00:33:11,809 --> 00:33:13,970
a lack of sort of self contact because

943
00:33:13,970 --> 00:33:15,410
I might not be in touch with why

944
00:33:15,410 --> 00:33:17,009
I'm doing that. Am I really doing this

945
00:33:17,009 --> 00:33:19,170
for her benefit? Am I really doing this

946
00:33:19,170 --> 00:33:20,309
to be authentic?

947
00:33:20,769 --> 00:33:22,769
Or am I now using her as a

948
00:33:22,769 --> 00:33:24,769
sort of emotional punching bag to dump all

949
00:33:24,769 --> 00:33:27,204
my stuff on? So there's even stuff there

950
00:33:27,204 --> 00:33:30,244
where, again, if we just move from intimacy

951
00:33:30,244 --> 00:33:33,525
means sex to intimacy means sharing feelings or

952
00:33:33,525 --> 00:33:35,065
asking someone how they're feeling,

953
00:33:35,444 --> 00:33:37,224
that's why we're still kinda missing

954
00:33:37,684 --> 00:33:39,125
part of it. We need to go right

955
00:33:39,125 --> 00:33:40,184
back to the start,

956
00:33:40,619 --> 00:33:42,940
self intimacy. And then out of that comes

957
00:33:42,940 --> 00:33:44,779
the ability to relate to other people. Yeah.

958
00:33:44,779 --> 00:33:45,900
And if you see the I don't know

959
00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:47,500
if you've seen have you seen Dan Drakes

960
00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:49,019
and the Rab Smiths? I think they whip

961
00:33:49,019 --> 00:33:52,319
together the intimacy pyramid. So it's honesty,

962
00:33:52,779 --> 00:33:53,920
safety, trust,

963
00:33:54,265 --> 00:33:57,644
and vulnerability, right? As these precursors, right? So

964
00:33:57,785 --> 00:33:59,464
we need to feel all of those things.

965
00:33:59,464 --> 00:34:00,984
And I think it's The reason I like

966
00:34:00,984 --> 00:34:02,204
looking at that is,

967
00:34:02,585 --> 00:34:04,044
especially when in the marriage

968
00:34:04,345 --> 00:34:06,984
post betrayal, man, think about how hard it

969
00:34:06,984 --> 00:34:09,210
is to have an intimate connection, right? Honesty,

970
00:34:09,210 --> 00:34:11,369
right? So you have to be in this

971
00:34:11,369 --> 00:34:14,730
place to be radically transparent with each other,

972
00:34:14,730 --> 00:34:16,489
right? And this includes your partner. You know,

973
00:34:16,489 --> 00:34:18,010
I've asked my wife, you know, through the

974
00:34:18,010 --> 00:34:20,010
process, I said, Hey, it's okay if you

975
00:34:20,010 --> 00:34:21,449
look at my stuff, but can you tell

976
00:34:21,449 --> 00:34:22,994
me after you do it? So like, she'll

977
00:34:22,994 --> 00:34:24,674
be like, Hey, I, you know, I went

978
00:34:24,674 --> 00:34:27,394
through your social media history a couple hours

979
00:34:27,394 --> 00:34:29,074
ago. I just wanted to She'll like text

980
00:34:29,074 --> 00:34:30,514
me. So because that was what it was.

981
00:34:30,514 --> 00:34:31,714
I was like, Hey, listen, I get it.

982
00:34:31,714 --> 00:34:34,594
I violated your trust, but I also don't

983
00:34:34,594 --> 00:34:35,094
like

984
00:34:35,570 --> 00:34:37,489
all of this like secret weird stuff that

985
00:34:37,489 --> 00:34:39,170
you're doing behind my back. It just doesn't

986
00:34:39,170 --> 00:34:41,570
make me feel like we're this dyad, this

987
00:34:41,570 --> 00:34:44,929
two person unit when you're sneaking around spying

988
00:34:44,929 --> 00:34:46,690
on all my stuff. So you can do

989
00:34:46,690 --> 00:34:48,130
it. Just tell me that you're doing it

990
00:34:48,130 --> 00:34:49,429
so that we have this transparency.

991
00:34:49,894 --> 00:34:52,054
But the safety piece, right? You know, how

992
00:34:52,054 --> 00:34:53,275
many partners

993
00:34:54,135 --> 00:34:55,755
are safe to share

994
00:34:56,135 --> 00:34:58,295
this information with truly? You know, because if

995
00:34:58,295 --> 00:34:59,835
I say it to you and you

996
00:35:00,295 --> 00:35:02,375
make it about you and make it about,

997
00:35:02,375 --> 00:35:04,180
you know, it's not that fun for me

998
00:35:04,180 --> 00:35:06,660
to come be triadically transparent with you. And

999
00:35:06,660 --> 00:35:08,660
I know, again, these poor partners would probably

1000
00:35:08,660 --> 00:35:10,099
listen to me and be like, Screw this

1001
00:35:10,099 --> 00:35:12,099
Roland guy. But again, you know, it's We

1002
00:35:12,099 --> 00:35:13,699
have to just think about these things. If

1003
00:35:13,699 --> 00:35:15,940
we're trying to create an intimate connection between

1004
00:35:15,940 --> 00:35:17,505
the two of us, we do need to

1005
00:35:17,505 --> 00:35:19,505
work really hard at creating, you know, men

1006
00:35:19,505 --> 00:35:21,525
and women need to create a safe environment

1007
00:35:21,585 --> 00:35:24,804
for transparent discussions. There can't be these consequences.

1008
00:35:24,944 --> 00:35:26,625
You know, if every time I tell you

1009
00:35:26,625 --> 00:35:28,244
there is like a four day consequence,

1010
00:35:28,784 --> 00:35:30,224
I don't know how much my body is

1011
00:35:30,224 --> 00:35:31,984
going to feel very safe with you around

1012
00:35:31,984 --> 00:35:33,719
being like this. This. So again, I'm just,

1013
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,559
you know, I know everyone wants this intimate

1014
00:35:35,559 --> 00:35:37,400
connection but, you know, there's some building blocks

1015
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,239
here that are foundational. But the one that

1016
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:40,699
I wanted to get to was

1017
00:35:41,079 --> 00:35:41,579
vulnerability

1018
00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:43,480
because that's what you were really talking about,

1019
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,400
Chris, was, you know, to me what I

1020
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:45,900
found

1021
00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:47,739
through recovery was

1022
00:35:48,405 --> 00:35:50,485
where a lot of intimate connection really started

1023
00:35:50,485 --> 00:35:51,385
happening was

1024
00:35:51,684 --> 00:35:52,905
I would vulnerably

1025
00:35:53,445 --> 00:35:55,765
share with my wife. Now, so what's this

1026
00:35:55,765 --> 00:35:57,525
look like? As you guys probably remember when

1027
00:35:57,525 --> 00:36:00,085
I went into this discussion with Chris about

1028
00:36:00,085 --> 00:36:03,119
intimacy, I said, I'm gonna defer to you

1029
00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:05,820
because I have a lot of pathology around

1030
00:36:05,820 --> 00:36:06,320
distrust

1031
00:36:07,179 --> 00:36:09,980
of others and a tendency to look to

1032
00:36:09,980 --> 00:36:12,059
myself only for getting my needs met and

1033
00:36:12,059 --> 00:36:14,885
trusting no one else to Right? So I

1034
00:36:14,885 --> 00:36:16,885
just do me and then I do things

1035
00:36:16,885 --> 00:36:18,724
for them until I can get a love

1036
00:36:18,724 --> 00:36:20,425
avoidant kind of ideology.

1037
00:36:20,964 --> 00:36:23,204
So now my wife says something. Let's say

1038
00:36:23,204 --> 00:36:25,204
it leads into an argument. I would come

1039
00:36:25,204 --> 00:36:27,284
after to her a couple hours later and

1040
00:36:27,284 --> 00:36:28,264
I would vulnerably,

1041
00:36:28,644 --> 00:36:31,609
right? Vulnerable, one of the elements of intimacy.

1042
00:36:31,670 --> 00:36:33,909
I would vulnerably tell her, Hey, when you

1043
00:36:33,909 --> 00:36:35,670
did that, you know, the thing that came

1044
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:37,510
up for me was, you were attacking my

1045
00:36:37,510 --> 00:36:39,829
recovery. You were accusing me of doing things

1046
00:36:39,829 --> 00:36:41,989
that I didn't do and doing things that

1047
00:36:41,989 --> 00:36:44,069
I've never done. And I felt the need

1048
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:46,125
to defend myself, right? So it's, I guess

1049
00:36:46,125 --> 00:36:47,644
where I'm getting at there, Chris, is, and

1050
00:36:47,644 --> 00:36:49,085
I'd love for you to say this. I

1051
00:36:49,085 --> 00:36:51,505
think it's hard for men to be intimate

1052
00:36:51,965 --> 00:36:54,605
when they are disconnected from self, for one,

1053
00:36:54,605 --> 00:36:56,765
yes. But I think let's choose a step

1054
00:36:56,765 --> 00:36:58,284
kind of before that. Because I think connecting

1055
00:36:58,284 --> 00:36:59,989
to self is a big ask for a

1056
00:36:59,989 --> 00:37:02,010
lot of these guys, especially in this environment.

1057
00:37:02,150 --> 00:37:03,989
But I think kind of a precursor to

1058
00:37:03,989 --> 00:37:06,469
that would be, do you know enough about

1059
00:37:06,469 --> 00:37:07,130
your pathology

1060
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:09,369
to be able to be

1061
00:37:09,909 --> 00:37:12,069
vulnerable and intimate with it? Because I do

1062
00:37:12,069 --> 00:37:14,465
think if you don't know enough about your

1063
00:37:14,465 --> 00:37:16,385
process addiction, the ins and outs of it,

1064
00:37:16,385 --> 00:37:18,545
it's hard to have this really vulnerable connected

1065
00:37:18,545 --> 00:37:19,765
conversation around,

1066
00:37:20,224 --> 00:37:22,305
Hey, when I acted that way, you know,

1067
00:37:22,305 --> 00:37:24,005
I have this I have this pathology

1068
00:37:24,305 --> 00:37:25,825
and I've had it my whole life where,

1069
00:37:25,825 --> 00:37:27,585
you know, when that happens, my instincts just

1070
00:37:27,585 --> 00:37:29,910
a lot. It's just it happens so fast.

1071
00:37:30,130 --> 00:37:31,730
And so and I hate that about myself

1072
00:37:31,730 --> 00:37:33,010
and I want that to change. But, hey,

1073
00:37:33,010 --> 00:37:34,769
would you mind if you're gonna start asking

1074
00:37:34,769 --> 00:37:35,510
me stuff

1075
00:37:36,050 --> 00:37:37,809
about this, would you mind sending me an

1076
00:37:37,809 --> 00:37:40,469
email and then even and cc my sponsor

1077
00:37:40,530 --> 00:37:43,094
or cc my therapist on it so that

1078
00:37:43,094 --> 00:37:44,775
I can get with my therapist or get

1079
00:37:44,775 --> 00:37:46,695
with my sponsor about, Hey, she wants to

1080
00:37:46,695 --> 00:37:48,534
know this. I don't wanna lie to her.

1081
00:37:48,534 --> 00:37:50,295
And so I can prevent myself from lying

1082
00:37:50,295 --> 00:37:51,655
to you. And I know it was a

1083
00:37:51,655 --> 00:37:53,514
long thing there, but I was just

1084
00:37:53,815 --> 00:37:55,829
One thing I've learned about intimacy is it's

1085
00:37:55,829 --> 00:37:58,230
less about hugs and kisses and me patting

1086
00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:59,910
there, there, pats on the back. A lot

1087
00:37:59,910 --> 00:38:00,650
of it is

1088
00:38:01,030 --> 00:38:02,630
a lot of it's been about me, Chris.

1089
00:38:02,630 --> 00:38:04,150
A lot of it has been about me

1090
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:06,469
telling my wife about the things that suck

1091
00:38:06,469 --> 00:38:08,309
about me and what I'm doing to fix

1092
00:38:08,309 --> 00:38:10,304
them. And you would think that how weird

1093
00:38:10,304 --> 00:38:11,744
is that that that would create intimacy, but,

1094
00:38:11,744 --> 00:38:13,585
Chris, it does. It probably has created the

1095
00:38:13,585 --> 00:38:15,505
most amount of intimacy of anything that we've

1096
00:38:15,505 --> 00:38:16,885
done in in since recovery.

1097
00:38:17,425 --> 00:38:19,585
Yeah. And there's a sense of I don't

1098
00:38:19,585 --> 00:38:21,905
wanna be too flippant about it. But if

1099
00:38:21,905 --> 00:38:23,364
the partner's being massively

1100
00:38:23,980 --> 00:38:24,480
traumatically

1101
00:38:24,780 --> 00:38:27,119
impacted and devastated by what you've done,

1102
00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:29,360
and then you start sharing,

1103
00:38:30,140 --> 00:38:32,559
well, there's these really crappy parts about me,

1104
00:38:32,699 --> 00:38:34,619
it's not exactly a big surprise to them.

1105
00:38:34,619 --> 00:38:36,539
It's kinda music to their ears of, well,

1106
00:38:36,539 --> 00:38:38,880
obviously, because look how much I'm in pain.

1107
00:38:39,375 --> 00:38:40,594
Thank you for recognizing

1108
00:38:40,974 --> 00:38:43,215
that part of yourself. I'm more safe with

1109
00:38:43,215 --> 00:38:44,195
someone that knows

1110
00:38:44,974 --> 00:38:47,375
the ways that they are a bit crappy

1111
00:38:47,375 --> 00:38:49,375
than someone that's crappy but thinks they have

1112
00:38:49,375 --> 00:38:51,215
it all together. Yeah. I really like to.

1113
00:38:51,454 --> 00:38:54,119
Point. Like, it maybe sounds counterintuitive at first,

1114
00:38:54,119 --> 00:38:55,480
but there's a lot of safety to be

1115
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,960
had from someone that knows their weak points.

1116
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,799
And I think it comes back to the

1117
00:38:59,799 --> 00:39:01,480
heart of what I was saying with it

1118
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,339
starts with self intimacy because

1119
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:05,319
I can't share what I don't know. I

1120
00:39:05,319 --> 00:39:07,420
can't be authentic about what I don't know.

1121
00:39:07,994 --> 00:39:10,795
And to your point, I'm gonna jump in

1122
00:39:10,795 --> 00:39:12,494
and take the side of the partners again.

1123
00:39:12,954 --> 00:39:14,414
That intimacy pyramid

1124
00:39:14,875 --> 00:39:15,855
so there's vulnerability.

1125
00:39:16,315 --> 00:39:18,014
Mhmm. But it starts with

1126
00:39:18,714 --> 00:39:20,280
I should have remembered that before I started

1127
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,500
this. It starts with It's, honesty, safety, trust,

1128
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:24,539
then vulnerability.

1129
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,739
Right? Yeah. So this is where

1130
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,579
the self contact,

1131
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,260
so I touched on it earlier,

1132
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,880
also goes to not just what I'm thinking

1133
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,525
and feeling, but what would my motivations be

1134
00:39:36,525 --> 00:39:38,684
here for sharing something. So I I I

1135
00:39:38,684 --> 00:39:40,945
talked about maybe the partner becoming almost

1136
00:39:41,405 --> 00:39:42,224
an emotional

1137
00:39:42,605 --> 00:39:44,364
outlet for me to just vent all my

1138
00:39:44,364 --> 00:39:45,984
stuff and make myself feel better.

1139
00:39:46,605 --> 00:39:49,380
If I haven't done the honesty, safety, trust

1140
00:39:49,380 --> 00:39:51,460
thing yet, if the partner's not feeling safe

1141
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:52,279
in the relationship,

1142
00:39:52,739 --> 00:39:55,779
I can't expect her to then be really

1143
00:39:55,779 --> 00:39:57,619
receptive and open to hearing all of my

1144
00:39:57,619 --> 00:39:59,619
venting and thankful that I'm being so open

1145
00:39:59,619 --> 00:40:01,695
with her. So that's where a lot of

1146
00:40:01,934 --> 00:40:04,114
therapeutic wisdom needs to come into the situation.

1147
00:40:04,255 --> 00:40:06,015
You need to be able to read what

1148
00:40:06,015 --> 00:40:07,695
is going on, where is your partner at

1149
00:40:07,695 --> 00:40:09,394
right now, have you built some safety.

1150
00:40:09,934 --> 00:40:12,675
And then absolutely when the time is right,

1151
00:40:12,815 --> 00:40:13,315
vulnerability

1152
00:40:13,695 --> 00:40:16,414
becomes one of the most beautiful, powerful things

1153
00:40:16,414 --> 00:40:18,199
we can bring to the relationship.

1154
00:40:18,739 --> 00:40:20,340
But, hopefully, you see where I'm coming from

1155
00:40:20,340 --> 00:40:22,099
with that. Really challenging if you're a liar.

1156
00:40:22,099 --> 00:40:23,800
Yeah. If you're if if you're a

1157
00:40:24,179 --> 00:40:24,920
liar, then,

1158
00:40:25,539 --> 00:40:27,619
I mean, there's really not a lot of

1159
00:40:27,619 --> 00:40:30,579
meaningful conversation that can happen because all their

1160
00:40:30,579 --> 00:40:32,679
brains telling them is, maybe.

1161
00:40:33,234 --> 00:40:34,675
What's why is he saying this? Is he

1162
00:40:34,675 --> 00:40:36,114
saying this to is he saying this so

1163
00:40:36,114 --> 00:40:37,074
I don't leave him? He said, you know,

1164
00:40:37,074 --> 00:40:39,155
it's just oh, there's all sorts of distrust.

1165
00:40:39,155 --> 00:40:40,835
Right? And so it's it doesn't, you know,

1166
00:40:40,835 --> 00:40:42,355
that that that's the reason I love that

1167
00:40:42,355 --> 00:40:43,954
pyramid is it shows you, hey, you know,

1168
00:40:43,954 --> 00:40:46,755
there's some precursors here before you can have

1169
00:40:46,755 --> 00:40:49,619
these vulnerable moments that really create the intimacy.

1170
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,159
Alright, in our last couple minutes together, we'll

1171
00:40:52,159 --> 00:40:54,099
have to rush this one, but integration.

1172
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,640
That's our third piece, correct? Did I write

1173
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:57,519
that down right?

1174
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,099
Talk to us about that. Help us understand

1175
00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:00,739
the deficits

1176
00:41:01,175 --> 00:41:03,734
that addicts, compulsive men are are dealing with

1177
00:41:03,734 --> 00:41:05,034
from an integration standpoint.

1178
00:41:05,815 --> 00:41:08,394
Yeah. So we've got those three i's, integrity,

1179
00:41:08,775 --> 00:41:10,474
intimacy, and now integration.

1180
00:41:11,094 --> 00:41:11,835
And there's

1181
00:41:12,135 --> 00:41:14,614
organically quite a lot of overlap because we

1182
00:41:14,614 --> 00:41:17,289
talked about integrity meaning wholeness

1183
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:18,409
and integration.

1184
00:41:18,869 --> 00:41:20,949
Integrated is another sort of play on the

1185
00:41:20,949 --> 00:41:21,690
word integrity.

1186
00:41:22,469 --> 00:41:24,150
But when we're working with it in this

1187
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:24,650
model,

1188
00:41:24,949 --> 00:41:26,809
we're really thinking of integration

1189
00:41:27,190 --> 00:41:29,190
being linked to what we were just talking

1190
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:29,690
about.

1191
00:41:30,070 --> 00:41:30,570
Actually,

1192
00:41:31,295 --> 00:41:33,635
knowing the parts of myself, the drivers

1193
00:41:34,015 --> 00:41:36,255
behind things. In the model, we refer to

1194
00:41:36,255 --> 00:41:38,835
shadow integration. It is from Jungian psychology.

1195
00:41:39,375 --> 00:41:41,614
This idea that all people have a shadow.

1196
00:41:41,614 --> 00:41:43,614
They have a part of themselves that they're

1197
00:41:43,614 --> 00:41:44,355
not comfortable

1198
00:41:44,815 --> 00:41:46,035
with that they suppress,

1199
00:41:46,579 --> 00:41:48,340
even like the sexual part we were talking

1200
00:41:48,340 --> 00:41:49,079
about earlier.

1201
00:41:49,780 --> 00:41:52,500
And so integration means have I been able

1202
00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:53,639
to fully integrate

1203
00:41:54,420 --> 00:41:57,159
my psyche to integrate that shadow,

1204
00:41:57,539 --> 00:41:59,320
integrate the uncomfortable parts?

1205
00:41:59,954 --> 00:42:02,195
Have I been able to bring my whole

1206
00:42:02,195 --> 00:42:04,914
self to the relationship? Have I deconstructed the

1207
00:42:04,914 --> 00:42:07,414
compartment of the secret sexual basement?

1208
00:42:07,795 --> 00:42:10,114
Because if we think of the person who

1209
00:42:10,114 --> 00:42:12,594
has built and maintained or is maintaining a

1210
00:42:12,594 --> 00:42:13,735
secret sexual basement,

1211
00:42:14,139 --> 00:42:17,019
they are literally living a compartmentalized life. Mhmm.

1212
00:42:17,019 --> 00:42:18,699
They're living one way here. They're living one

1213
00:42:18,699 --> 00:42:20,159
way over here in the basement.

1214
00:42:20,539 --> 00:42:24,159
So integration means bringing those together and

1215
00:42:24,539 --> 00:42:26,804
being the whole person if you like. I

1216
00:42:26,804 --> 00:42:29,444
think that's where groups shine in my opinion

1217
00:42:29,444 --> 00:42:29,944
is,

1218
00:42:30,565 --> 00:42:32,405
you know, it's one thing, you know, I

1219
00:42:32,405 --> 00:42:33,925
always say the sex addiction field is funny.

1220
00:42:33,925 --> 00:42:35,764
It's like a lot of this is like

1221
00:42:35,764 --> 00:42:38,724
college, right? You're going and like learning about

1222
00:42:38,724 --> 00:42:40,585
stuff, but like life is entrepreneurship.

1223
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:42,679
It's one thing to get your degree in

1224
00:42:42,679 --> 00:42:43,179
business

1225
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,639
and graduate and put your little cap on

1226
00:42:45,639 --> 00:42:47,719
and put your tassel the other side. But

1227
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,980
like, you know, business is not about memorizing

1228
00:42:50,039 --> 00:42:51,799
stuff and passing tests, right? It's about a

1229
00:42:51,799 --> 00:42:53,339
viable plan. It's about

1230
00:42:53,735 --> 00:42:55,894
testing and bouncing ideas off of people and

1231
00:42:55,894 --> 00:42:57,574
testing your knowledge to know if you know

1232
00:42:57,574 --> 00:42:59,414
that. And that's how I kind of like

1233
00:42:59,414 --> 00:42:59,914
integration

1234
00:43:00,295 --> 00:43:02,554
is, you know, to me it's really difficult

1235
00:43:02,614 --> 00:43:04,934
to do this alone. And even with a

1236
00:43:04,934 --> 00:43:07,428
therapist, I think it's where, where, where integration

1237
00:43:07,428 --> 00:43:09,713
really starts to come together is in that

1238
00:43:09,713 --> 00:43:11,997
group setting, right? Where you're, you're starting to

1239
00:43:11,997 --> 00:43:14,282
actually see practical applications of a lot of

1240
00:43:14,282 --> 00:43:16,566
these issues. And I think the group's really

1241
00:43:16,566 --> 00:43:18,850
nice because it can show you why you

1242
00:43:18,850 --> 00:43:21,135
may have an integration issue by somebody else

1243
00:43:21,215 --> 00:43:23,215
bringing up their integration issue, right? It might

1244
00:43:23,215 --> 00:43:25,454
be something you are completely unaware of until

1245
00:43:25,454 --> 00:43:27,534
they brought it up, which I think is

1246
00:43:27,534 --> 00:43:29,394
critical, which tees us up nicely

1247
00:43:30,255 --> 00:43:32,335
to kind of introduce this thing you've been

1248
00:43:32,335 --> 00:43:34,094
doing. I know I've sent men over to

1249
00:43:34,094 --> 00:43:36,114
you before. Can you introduce to the audience

1250
00:43:36,175 --> 00:43:36,675
how

1251
00:43:37,269 --> 00:43:38,710
with these, you know, it's not just the

1252
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:40,550
three I's, but you have a sixteen week

1253
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:42,230
kind of approach that you do with this.

1254
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:43,670
And it's a small group of guys, correct?

1255
00:43:43,670 --> 00:43:45,510
Eight, is that what I heard? Yeah, eight

1256
00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:47,510
max. Which I really love that. I like

1257
00:43:47,510 --> 00:43:49,989
that number. So if people are listening to

1258
00:43:49,989 --> 00:43:51,930
this and they're starting to feel like,

1259
00:43:52,235 --> 00:43:54,715
I do have deficits in these areas. What's

1260
00:43:54,715 --> 00:43:56,954
this program look like? How often do you

1261
00:43:56,954 --> 00:43:58,635
do it? If there's somebody who wants their

1262
00:43:58,635 --> 00:44:00,074
husband to look into this or if somebody

1263
00:44:00,074 --> 00:44:01,434
listening to this wants to look into it

1264
00:44:01,434 --> 00:44:03,195
for themselves, where do they go? How do

1265
00:44:03,195 --> 00:44:04,954
I go about doing this? Talk to us

1266
00:44:04,954 --> 00:44:06,494
a little bit about the the program.

1267
00:44:07,050 --> 00:44:10,250
My website's the chrisjonestherapy.co.uk

1268
00:44:10,250 --> 00:44:12,570
website, but I run this treatment program that

1269
00:44:12,570 --> 00:44:14,750
I call the from harm to healing program.

1270
00:44:15,530 --> 00:44:16,030
And

1271
00:44:16,329 --> 00:44:19,289
it's very much based on the DST model,

1272
00:44:19,289 --> 00:44:22,074
and some people might be familiar with doctor

1273
00:44:22,074 --> 00:44:23,755
meanwhile, his program, the Be a Better Man

1274
00:44:23,755 --> 00:44:25,454
program. It's very focused

1275
00:44:25,994 --> 00:44:26,655
on psychoeducation

1276
00:44:27,275 --> 00:44:28,974
about the model, really highlighting

1277
00:44:29,434 --> 00:44:31,934
the harm of the secret sexual basement, integrity,

1278
00:44:32,074 --> 00:44:35,135
abuse, how the partner is harmed, is victimized

1279
00:44:35,275 --> 00:44:36,255
by those things.

1280
00:44:36,619 --> 00:44:38,380
And what you find is in this field,

1281
00:44:38,380 --> 00:44:39,820
there's a lot of people who are really

1282
00:44:39,820 --> 00:44:40,320
passionate

1283
00:44:40,619 --> 00:44:42,860
about that work, about the DST model, but

1284
00:44:42,860 --> 00:44:45,099
very little out there to actually work with

1285
00:44:45,099 --> 00:44:45,599
it.

1286
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:48,239
So I really worked from a pretty extensive

1287
00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:50,460
period of time on developing a program around

1288
00:44:50,460 --> 00:44:53,914
that. So there's an online course, webinars. It's

1289
00:44:53,914 --> 00:44:55,934
about 70 videos now, I think,

1290
00:44:56,474 --> 00:44:58,795
that breaks it down into three sections, the

1291
00:44:58,795 --> 00:44:59,295
illumination,

1292
00:44:59,755 --> 00:45:00,735
so really

1293
00:45:01,114 --> 00:45:01,614
psychoeducating

1294
00:45:02,075 --> 00:45:04,555
about the model, really giving the participants a

1295
00:45:04,555 --> 00:45:05,295
deep understanding,

1296
00:45:06,039 --> 00:45:08,839
but then, critically, the application part, which is

1297
00:45:08,839 --> 00:45:11,259
about how do we actually start applying this,

1298
00:45:11,639 --> 00:45:13,799
changing these behaviors, trying to build some of

1299
00:45:13,799 --> 00:45:16,359
these deficits we've spoken about. And then there's

1300
00:45:16,359 --> 00:45:18,199
the what we call the attending section, the

1301
00:45:18,199 --> 00:45:20,534
third section, which is how do I learn

1302
00:45:20,534 --> 00:45:21,755
to better attend

1303
00:45:22,214 --> 00:45:24,054
to the trauma that is now in the

1304
00:45:24,054 --> 00:45:26,135
relationship and the trauma that my partner is

1305
00:45:26,135 --> 00:45:27,514
now potentially experiencing?

1306
00:45:28,135 --> 00:45:29,275
So we're looking at

1307
00:45:29,655 --> 00:45:32,135
application. How do I start working on my

1308
00:45:32,135 --> 00:45:33,594
deficits, on the

1309
00:45:33,929 --> 00:45:36,190
integrity abuse, on the lying, the deception,

1310
00:45:36,809 --> 00:45:38,329
but also how do I show up better

1311
00:45:38,329 --> 00:45:40,409
for my partner? Mhmm. And we do it

1312
00:45:40,409 --> 00:45:42,809
in this sixteen week group format meeting once

1313
00:45:42,809 --> 00:45:44,969
a week, go through the program together, and

1314
00:45:44,969 --> 00:45:46,989
then really process it as a group. Because,

1315
00:45:47,525 --> 00:45:49,065
again, as you alluded to earlier,

1316
00:45:49,605 --> 00:45:51,285
my view is we can actually do that

1317
00:45:51,285 --> 00:45:53,684
work more powerfully in a group setting than

1318
00:45:53,684 --> 00:45:55,364
I can even do one to one with

1319
00:45:55,364 --> 00:45:57,605
a guy in individual therapy because there is

1320
00:45:57,605 --> 00:45:59,224
just something about the conditions

1321
00:45:59,925 --> 00:46:01,945
you can create in a group of men

1322
00:46:02,150 --> 00:46:04,090
who are working through the same things that

1323
00:46:04,309 --> 00:46:06,329
you can't really replicate anywhere else.

1324
00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:08,630
So so that's the main thing I offer.

1325
00:46:08,630 --> 00:46:10,329
I also offer an individual

1326
00:46:10,949 --> 00:46:13,590
guided self study program for people that can't

1327
00:46:13,590 --> 00:46:15,349
make the group time, but wanna maybe work

1328
00:46:15,349 --> 00:46:16,809
through it individually with me.

1329
00:46:17,264 --> 00:46:19,424
And we actually have one coming up at

1330
00:46:19,424 --> 00:46:21,904
the August, which is gonna be so sixteen

1331
00:46:21,904 --> 00:46:22,404
weeks

1332
00:46:22,784 --> 00:46:23,844
running on Fridays

1333
00:46:24,385 --> 00:46:25,045
at midday

1334
00:46:25,984 --> 00:46:28,224
UK time. So that's gonna be, if I've

1335
00:46:28,224 --> 00:46:30,324
got it right, 7AM eastern time.

1336
00:46:30,730 --> 00:46:32,110
People who are early risers.

1337
00:46:32,410 --> 00:46:34,010
And so, yeah, if people are interested, they

1338
00:46:34,010 --> 00:46:36,650
can reach out about that. Yeah. Awesome. And,

1339
00:46:36,650 --> 00:46:39,289
Chris, I've told you this before. Your, you

1340
00:46:39,289 --> 00:46:41,130
know, I very first got introduced to you.

1341
00:46:41,130 --> 00:46:42,809
I can't even remember where that was, but

1342
00:46:42,809 --> 00:46:45,355
I've always loved I've loved your approach. The

1343
00:46:45,355 --> 00:46:47,135
DST model, I think works

1344
00:46:47,515 --> 00:46:50,574
really well with my population, high achievers, entrepreneurs,

1345
00:46:50,715 --> 00:46:53,035
you know, it's they're just it's more needs

1346
00:46:53,035 --> 00:46:55,775
to be looked at than your inability to

1347
00:46:55,914 --> 00:46:58,074
regulate your emotions. And so you're gonna turn

1348
00:46:58,074 --> 00:47:00,079
to porn. You know, it's just this conversation,

1349
00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:01,840
I think, is a is a much bigger

1350
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,840
conversation. There's some very, to me, there's some

1351
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:04,659
very core

1352
00:47:05,119 --> 00:47:05,619
human

1353
00:47:06,079 --> 00:47:08,400
issues that are lacking. It doesn't always end

1354
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,000
up in sex addiction, but it can't. And

1355
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:11,440
I think that's really what we need to

1356
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,735
look at is what deficits do I have,

1357
00:47:13,735 --> 00:47:15,494
and is it opening doors that shouldn't be

1358
00:47:15,494 --> 00:47:17,414
open? But, Chris, this was awesome, man. As

1359
00:47:17,414 --> 00:47:19,094
always, we'll have to do it again inside

1360
00:47:19,094 --> 00:47:19,835
of two years

1361
00:47:20,454 --> 00:47:22,394
this time. But I appreciate your time today.

1362
00:47:22,534 --> 00:47:24,375
Yeah. No. It's been great to be back,

1363
00:47:24,375 --> 00:47:26,539
and I feel we could probably talk for

1364
00:47:26,539 --> 00:47:28,140
hours about this and not on other things

1365
00:47:28,140 --> 00:47:29,179
in the face. I think we said that

1366
00:47:29,179 --> 00:47:31,260
last time too. Yeah. Maybe again in the

1367
00:47:31,260 --> 00:47:31,760
future.

1368
00:47:32,780 --> 00:47:34,940
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1369
00:47:34,940 --> 00:47:36,699
are a high achiever of the sex addiction

1370
00:47:36,699 --> 00:47:38,460
and you're looking for a recovery group full

1371
00:47:38,460 --> 00:47:41,594
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1372
00:47:41,594 --> 00:47:44,394
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1373
00:47:44,394 --> 00:47:45,695
using four day retreats,

1374
00:47:45,994 --> 00:47:48,815
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1375
00:47:48,875 --> 00:47:51,035
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1376
00:47:51,035 --> 00:47:52,910
save your marriage, go to our website and

1377
00:47:52,910 --> 00:47:53,890
fill out our application.

1378
00:47:54,190 --> 00:47:56,670
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1379
00:47:56,670 --> 00:47:58,269
along to a friend in recovery who would

1380
00:47:58,269 --> 00:48:00,269
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1381
00:48:00,269 --> 00:48:02,030
get this information out to as many high

1382
00:48:02,030 --> 00:48:04,269
achievers as possible, and I can't do it

1383
00:48:04,269 --> 00:48:05,250
without your help.