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When we talk about recovery being so long

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term, this is not that struggle against sobriety

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this whole time. That's

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that's not what we're talking about. This truly

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is about learning to live life differently. Long

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term recovery is about really discovering and living

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in the integrity

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of who you are,

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and and that's a vastly different conversation.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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high achiever. I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder

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of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for

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high achieving men struggling with sex and porn

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addiction. For more information about joining our group

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or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Marnie, I don't usually do intros, but, oh

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my gosh, you're such you're so well known

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in the industry. It's almost a shame not

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to dive in, but the problem is you've

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done too many cool things for this space,

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and it would take the entire podcast to,

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talk about all of the value you've added.

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So for those of you who are listening

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and want to know about, what Marnie has

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done, I will include, more of her bio

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in the in the show notes. Let's get

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into what they came here for, which was

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long term

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sobriety,

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long term recovery. But let's dive in. You

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know, when you speak about long term,

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recovery, long term sobriety,

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how do you frame that so people kinda

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wrap their head around what's required? I don't

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know that I've got a specific frame, Roland.

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I'm just me, and I just talk. I

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I guess I wanna start saying

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I am a person in long, long, long

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term recovery.

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I am 69 years old,

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and I have been in my own recovery

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from sex, love, and relationship addiction

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and sexual trauma since I was 35.

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That's a long time.

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And along the way, I've learned a lot

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of things,

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some of which I put into practice, some

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of which at different times I have not.

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But I've gotten passionate

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about this journey for the long haul.

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I don't I started to say I don't

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consider myself an old timer. I guess I

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do because I'm an old lady. You know?

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When

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when I'm I'm thinking about how old I

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really am, I don't feel I don't feel

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old. I feel like a learner. I feel

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excited actually to be in a retirement stage,

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so that's interesting in terms of of long

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term journey. So

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I'm I'm just me. I guess the other

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thing I really want folks to know

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is I for sure don't wanna hold myself

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out as this huge paragon of perfect recovery,

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and I've got all these answers and all

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this kind of stuff. Your audit is too

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smart for

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that. And I'm too smart for that, and

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you're too smart for that.

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I'm just me, and I've learned some stuff.

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And I'm I'm glad to share it with

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your audit. But I love but I love

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that because I do think,

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in my own personal recovery, I I do

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feel as if,

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when I first started at least,

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it was spoken about, like, I would like,

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there was this precise formula, and I was

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gonna be able to get this thing out

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of my life, And I was gonna go

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to six meetings,

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and,

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all would be well, and then we this

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would be a nonissue. My wife and I

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would sail off into the sunset happily ever

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after. And so I appreciate what you're saying

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though, Marnie, is,

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I think anyone who claims to be an

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expert in this,

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that all the top people in the field

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that I know never use that word. They

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know how big this is. They know how

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complex this is. They know how individual this

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is.

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They know that we that this is a

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new field. I mean, what are we talking

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forty, fifty years? I mean, this is not

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a this is a very young approach.

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And so I think I think I appreciate

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you saying that because even though you've been

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involved in the space in a big in

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a really big way,

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I love that I love that you said

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that because I I think that message needs

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to be said to, sex addicts. This is

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guys, this is a this is a big,

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complex, unique,

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ever dynamic thing.

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As it stands today, we do not have

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a cookie cutter

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formula that will work for every single person.

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And so all that being said, I I

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really appreciate your approach because this is something

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that needs to be hashed out, talked about.

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You you really need to take, you know,

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my stance of it at least, you really

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need to take the wheel of your own

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recovery when it comes to Yes. Addiction. I

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think if you just take the I'm gonna

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sit back and let the CSATs fix me

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and the meetings fix me,

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I think you're gonna be in for a

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very rude awakening when you realize that,

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recovery doesn't work that way. It's, it's very

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much a

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individual,

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journey, and I I I think you feel

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the same way. I mean, Marnie, I've loved

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my recovery. I it's, you know, it's it's

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one of the best thing that's ever happened

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to me. I think I would have lived

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a fraction of my full potential

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had I not

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been discovered and been forced into all of

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this. So let's so let's have this fun

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conversation. So I'm gonna where I'm gonna start

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off by is,

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I I wanna speak to the element of

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this being a spectrum. You know, when you

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look at the American Psychological Association and they

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talk about the definition of process addiction recovery,

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which is what sex addiction is, it's defined

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as a slow steady reduction

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in duration and frequency.

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I think that's very disturbing for especially the

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betrayed partners to hear.

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They want an on off switch, and they

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want the switch to be in the off

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position.

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But, that's not how it's defined in the

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psychological,

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literature,

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and it certainly appears that that's not how

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it goes in long term recovery.

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When you hear that definition, Marnie, what comes

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to mind in your own personal experience?

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I think about the fact that we are

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never done with recovery.

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And recovery is very different from sobriety.

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Nothing good happens without sobriety, but that's the

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beginning point.

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And very often, I think,

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especially really driven people who wanna I I've

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now I'm now sober, and I've been sober

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for, say, ninety days or maybe six months

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or maybe, oh my gosh, a year. So

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now now I can get back to my

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life. That's not what recovery is about.

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Recovery is about learning to do life differently.

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It is about so much more than checking

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off any boxes. It's about

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it's about going deep inside yourself

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to get to know yourself,

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going deep inside the god of your understanding.

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Spirituality

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is a huge part of this, however one

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defines defines that.

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It's it's about

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just this this constant growth,

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that becomes just living life.

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And so I do think I wanna have

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a nuance about one thing you said a

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couple minutes ago.

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I also know that for some of us,

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my own best thinking got me here, meaning

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here is not a good place.

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So I do need to be teachable.

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I do need to listen to people who

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are further down the road, to people who

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have some experience, strength, and hope for what

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what I'm going through.

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And that being said, then then there is

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also this this equally important,

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element of what you're talking about is to

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take this bull by the horns and to

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to own

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it. This is mine. This is what I'm

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gonna do. This this is what,

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what I'm committing to for me.

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Mhmm. It's a it's

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the most common I I I think they

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they talk about this in,

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the recovery zone book, which is so funny.

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They they they

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you know, Facing the Shadows is, like, the

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go to book for all you you know,

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but it's interesting. I I'm a way more

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of a fan of the Recovery Zone books

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because and I know they're they're designed for

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later stage,

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but I I I found so much more

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value in those. I did the Face in

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the Shadows book was just kind of, like,

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I don't know. I mean, I I know

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it's, you you know, I think it's important

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information for some people, but it wasn't really,

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it didn't really move the needle for me.

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But the recovery zone book says what you

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just said, which was, you know, in the

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grief stage, which, yeah, they say lasts, you

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know, between, you know, six to nine months,

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I think is, like, the the range.

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I you know, when guys are in recovery,

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you know, they it's it's so sad when

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I see it happen because and I don't

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wanna pop their bubble. Right? You know, and

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I'm not trying to be negative, but, you

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know, I've heard guys at the eight month

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mark, they're like, oh, man. I'm I'm I'm

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I'm so sober.

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I I I can't imagine this ever happening

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to me again.

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Why can't my wife get get over this

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because I'm cured.

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But I will tell you this,

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almost

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right at the eight month mark for me,

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almost right at the eight month mark, I

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got a craving and an urge. You know,

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and I was able to not act on

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it, but, you know, a couple days later

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I got it again. And so I I

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think you bring up a good point.

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Sobriety and recovery are two different things, and

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I think if you,

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if you think that you're

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sober and that's good enough, I think that

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is why we see a pretty high level

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of relapse in this particular field is

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a lot of what caused the behaviors hasn't,

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changed. And hasn't been addressed. Right. Right. And

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it's always I you know, one of my

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requirements for my program,

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you know, I really don't like when guys

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are too early

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because I really want them to be at

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a point where they understand

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this is of you're gonna be doing this

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for life. And so when I get guys

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who are a little too early,

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that's off putting to them. They don't like

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that idea. And Right.

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I'm I'm always scared that when a guy

268
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,000
thinks that this is not gonna be a

269
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,460
lifelong issue because,

270
00:10:07,159 --> 00:10:09,320
we live in such a sexual place and

271
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,825
sex being a biological need in comes in

272
00:10:11,825 --> 00:10:14,325
in that all culminate that, you know, society's

273
00:10:14,465 --> 00:10:14,965
sexuality,

274
00:10:15,745 --> 00:10:18,945
your sexual needs, that all combined with any

275
00:10:18,945 --> 00:10:20,245
of your kind of maladaptive,

276
00:10:20,945 --> 00:10:21,445
behaviors,

277
00:10:22,305 --> 00:10:24,305
it it's a it's something to keep your

278
00:10:24,305 --> 00:10:25,825
eye on for a long time, in my

279
00:10:25,825 --> 00:10:26,325
opinion.

280
00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:27,899
It it is.

281
00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:31,000
I think though that that when we talk

282
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,559
about recovery being so long term, this is

283
00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,759
not that struggle against sobriety this whole time.

284
00:10:36,759 --> 00:10:39,985
That's that's not what we're talking about, generally

285
00:10:39,985 --> 00:10:42,404
speaking. Now that can pop up different times.

286
00:10:43,504 --> 00:10:45,365
This truly is about

287
00:10:46,064 --> 00:10:48,225
learning to live life differently. It's the same

288
00:10:48,225 --> 00:10:50,804
way with with your audience to say,

289
00:10:52,865 --> 00:10:53,365
you're

290
00:10:54,129 --> 00:10:57,169
you're not a businessman anymore. I mean, you

291
00:10:57,169 --> 00:10:59,490
you you always are. That's that's what you're

292
00:10:59,490 --> 00:11:02,289
doing. Maybe you've changed industries. Maybe you've you've

293
00:11:02,289 --> 00:11:03,429
done this or that.

294
00:11:04,289 --> 00:11:06,449
You yourself have had a variety of different

295
00:11:06,449 --> 00:11:08,870
businesses, including now, and different focuses.

296
00:11:10,754 --> 00:11:13,014
But all of that is just in the

297
00:11:13,714 --> 00:11:16,754
in the crucible and in the container of

298
00:11:16,754 --> 00:11:17,654
who you are.

299
00:11:18,514 --> 00:11:21,075
And so long term recovery is about really

300
00:11:21,075 --> 00:11:24,034
discovering and living into the integrity of who

301
00:11:24,034 --> 00:11:24,855
you are.

302
00:11:26,389 --> 00:11:29,209
And and that's a vastly different conversation

303
00:11:29,589 --> 00:11:30,089
than

304
00:11:30,950 --> 00:11:32,809
don't look at porn today. Don't

305
00:11:33,669 --> 00:11:35,450
whatever your thing is.

306
00:11:36,950 --> 00:11:39,049
Those are very, very different

307
00:11:40,495 --> 00:11:43,154
different things that that all the don'ts

308
00:11:43,534 --> 00:11:45,214
or even the dos, like do go to

309
00:11:45,214 --> 00:11:47,454
a meeting or do connect with, you know,

310
00:11:47,454 --> 00:11:50,095
a supporter, accountability person, or something, those are

311
00:11:50,095 --> 00:11:50,834
still behavioral.

312
00:11:51,294 --> 00:11:54,095
Mhmm. And that's helpful. You you you need

313
00:11:54,095 --> 00:11:56,179
that. That's like learning the nuts and bolts

314
00:11:56,179 --> 00:11:57,720
of how do you read a financial statement.

315
00:11:58,100 --> 00:12:00,340
But that doesn't do anything for now what

316
00:12:00,340 --> 00:12:02,100
do I do with all of this? Mhmm.

317
00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:03,860
And so the longer term is what I

318
00:12:03,860 --> 00:12:05,320
do with all of this.

319
00:12:06,019 --> 00:12:08,759
One thing that you said has piqued my

320
00:12:10,754 --> 00:12:14,195
my interest here, which is this idea of

321
00:12:14,195 --> 00:12:16,355
this grief stage is maybe six to nine

322
00:12:16,355 --> 00:12:16,855
months.

323
00:12:17,875 --> 00:12:18,375
BS.

324
00:12:19,875 --> 00:12:20,375
Grief

325
00:12:20,754 --> 00:12:22,215
is an ongoing

326
00:12:23,154 --> 00:12:25,370
long term part of life. And that's one

327
00:12:25,370 --> 00:12:27,470
of the things that I have hugely learned

328
00:12:27,769 --> 00:12:29,870
in long term recovery, that

329
00:12:31,129 --> 00:12:32,590
this grieving process,

330
00:12:34,090 --> 00:12:35,549
which sounds like a downer.

331
00:12:36,009 --> 00:12:38,570
And, again, it's it's that grieving that gets

332
00:12:38,570 --> 00:12:40,110
you into your deepest

333
00:12:40,784 --> 00:12:43,024
part of what's important to you. We grieve

334
00:12:43,024 --> 00:12:44,325
because something mattered.

335
00:12:45,745 --> 00:12:48,464
And so we get to grieve things that

336
00:12:48,464 --> 00:12:50,384
the world tells us, oh, you can't grieve

337
00:12:50,384 --> 00:12:52,004
that because it's wrong. Like,

338
00:12:52,784 --> 00:12:54,245
there's an affair partner

339
00:12:54,909 --> 00:12:56,210
that I still grieve.

340
00:12:56,830 --> 00:12:59,549
This was someone who was important and special

341
00:12:59,549 --> 00:13:01,070
to me. Am I in contact with him?

342
00:13:01,070 --> 00:13:02,750
No. Am I gonna be in contact with

343
00:13:02,750 --> 00:13:03,490
him? No.

344
00:13:04,269 --> 00:13:06,370
And at different times,

345
00:13:07,149 --> 00:13:09,169
that comes to mind, and I go,

346
00:13:09,834 --> 00:13:10,334
wow.

347
00:13:11,434 --> 00:13:11,934
Wow.

348
00:13:12,554 --> 00:13:15,754
And I thank my mama god, as I

349
00:13:15,754 --> 00:13:17,534
call my spiritual figure,

350
00:13:18,875 --> 00:13:21,115
for the positives of that, and I thank

351
00:13:21,115 --> 00:13:23,995
for everything I learned for that. And I

352
00:13:23,995 --> 00:13:24,894
think that

353
00:13:25,230 --> 00:13:26,769
I'm now in a position

354
00:13:27,389 --> 00:13:29,470
of getting some of the the needs that

355
00:13:29,470 --> 00:13:32,190
were met in that relationship in a way

356
00:13:32,190 --> 00:13:34,509
that jives with my integrity. Mhmm. It's a

357
00:13:34,669 --> 00:13:36,750
That makes sense. Yeah. It's a you know,

358
00:13:36,750 --> 00:13:38,190
I in my book, I have a chapter

359
00:13:38,190 --> 00:13:40,209
called recovery is not a burden.

360
00:13:40,514 --> 00:13:42,675
And I often have said on this podcast

361
00:13:42,675 --> 00:13:45,154
over and over, if recovery is annoying to

362
00:13:45,154 --> 00:13:47,075
you and you want it to stop, you're

363
00:13:47,075 --> 00:13:47,894
doing it wrong.

364
00:13:48,595 --> 00:13:50,995
You are absolutely doing it wrong. It should

365
00:13:50,995 --> 00:13:52,754
not feel like a burden. It should feel

366
00:13:52,915 --> 00:13:54,375
I mean, in my in our groups,

367
00:13:54,769 --> 00:13:57,330
the guys count down the days to the

368
00:13:57,330 --> 00:13:57,830
call.

369
00:13:58,529 --> 00:14:00,850
We have this accountability app that we have

370
00:14:00,850 --> 00:14:02,789
on our phones. And right after the call,

371
00:14:03,090 --> 00:14:05,169
the the app always blows up. And everyone's

372
00:14:05,169 --> 00:14:06,929
always like, oh my gosh. That was such

373
00:14:06,929 --> 00:14:08,690
a great call. I love you guys so

374
00:14:08,690 --> 00:14:10,414
much. All that, you know, I loved all

375
00:14:10,414 --> 00:14:11,394
the feedback today.

376
00:14:12,654 --> 00:14:14,815
Like, they they love it. We do retreat

377
00:14:14,815 --> 00:14:16,495
twice a year. They count all the days

378
00:14:16,495 --> 00:14:18,174
of the retreats. I have one coming up

379
00:14:18,174 --> 00:14:21,315
in two weeks, and they're already messaging, coordinating,

380
00:14:21,455 --> 00:14:23,455
you know, hey. Let's all meet up and

381
00:14:23,455 --> 00:14:25,554
carpool together and go to this one. And,

382
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,559
you know, that's what recovery should be. It

383
00:14:27,559 --> 00:14:29,820
should be Exactly. I can't wait

384
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,639
to I can't wait to be more me.

385
00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:35,279
I can't wait to get these things Right.

386
00:14:35,399 --> 00:14:36,759
Out of my life that I don't want

387
00:14:36,759 --> 00:14:38,700
in my life. I can't wait to unlearn

388
00:14:38,919 --> 00:14:41,245
these things that people taught me that I

389
00:14:41,245 --> 00:14:42,384
don't even wanna believe.

390
00:14:42,924 --> 00:14:45,325
Like, it should be exciting this this new

391
00:14:45,325 --> 00:14:45,825
life

392
00:14:46,365 --> 00:14:48,605
on on Verizon. Right? It's not and I

393
00:14:48,605 --> 00:14:50,225
think that's the challenge with

394
00:14:51,004 --> 00:14:51,504
sobriety

395
00:14:51,884 --> 00:14:53,730
and a little bit too much of the

396
00:14:53,809 --> 00:14:55,170
that's that's why you don't hear me call

397
00:14:55,170 --> 00:14:56,929
this sex and porn addiction. I just call

398
00:14:56,929 --> 00:14:58,850
it process addiction because I think when we

399
00:14:58,850 --> 00:14:59,990
zoom in too much,

400
00:15:00,690 --> 00:15:03,009
we're focusing on the wrong things, you know.

401
00:15:03,250 --> 00:15:06,389
What's your process addiction that led to sexual

402
00:15:06,610 --> 00:15:07,965
things and porn use?

403
00:15:08,445 --> 00:15:11,245
Right? Because it's probably not sexual. Right? And

404
00:15:11,245 --> 00:15:13,264
and so Right. By zooming out

405
00:15:13,884 --> 00:15:16,524
and looking at what's my what how do

406
00:15:16,524 --> 00:15:18,285
I self identify? What do I think of

407
00:15:18,285 --> 00:15:19,565
myself and what do I think of the

408
00:15:19,565 --> 00:15:22,764
world? That's recovery. Because if you if your

409
00:15:22,764 --> 00:15:23,264
self

410
00:15:23,580 --> 00:15:25,120
concept, your your identity

411
00:15:25,580 --> 00:15:26,080
is,

412
00:15:26,620 --> 00:15:28,700
not enough yet, let's say, you will be

413
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:31,360
in a position of potentially seeking validation,

414
00:15:31,820 --> 00:15:32,320
because

415
00:15:32,620 --> 00:15:34,220
you are wanting to know, hey. Am I

416
00:15:34,220 --> 00:15:35,740
enough yet? Do you think I'm enough? How

417
00:15:35,740 --> 00:15:37,180
about you? Do you think I'm enough? And

418
00:15:37,180 --> 00:15:38,985
then how about you? Am I enough?

419
00:15:39,625 --> 00:15:41,884
You know, if part of that's physical attraction

420
00:15:42,105 --> 00:15:44,745
and how suave you are, then, you know,

421
00:15:44,745 --> 00:15:46,524
again, that's that's a

422
00:15:46,904 --> 00:15:47,404
problematic

423
00:15:47,945 --> 00:15:50,264
area to be but to me, that's recovery

424
00:15:50,264 --> 00:15:50,764
is

425
00:15:51,570 --> 00:15:55,190
what about me drove me to want to

426
00:15:55,250 --> 00:15:58,210
do those things, and how much are those

427
00:15:58,210 --> 00:15:59,410
things out of my life? And I'm gonna

428
00:15:59,410 --> 00:16:00,930
go on the record here, and I've done

429
00:16:00,930 --> 00:16:02,529
this before, so this isn't isn't the first

430
00:16:02,529 --> 00:16:04,610
time. But, guys, I'm deep into my recovery,

431
00:16:04,610 --> 00:16:06,710
and I'll still tell you this right now.

432
00:16:07,205 --> 00:16:08,105
I crave

433
00:16:09,044 --> 00:16:11,924
attention. I crave validation. It is just it

434
00:16:11,924 --> 00:16:14,245
is something that I am working on hard.

435
00:16:14,245 --> 00:16:16,565
I'm still seeing my therapist weekly, but,

436
00:16:17,605 --> 00:16:19,605
the way I was brought up, it just

437
00:16:19,684 --> 00:16:21,480
it's it's good it it did a number

438
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,220
on me, and, it's really hard for me

439
00:16:24,919 --> 00:16:27,079
to go through life knowing that I'm enough

440
00:16:27,079 --> 00:16:30,199
for me and not needs other people to

441
00:16:30,199 --> 00:16:32,039
be impressed by what I'm doing. And that's

442
00:16:32,039 --> 00:16:34,154
just it's this ongoing struggle.

443
00:16:34,534 --> 00:16:35,815
And, I know that it can get me

444
00:16:35,815 --> 00:16:38,615
into trouble, and so I'm I'm never gonna

445
00:16:38,615 --> 00:16:40,774
claim that I am recovered with an e

446
00:16:40,774 --> 00:16:41,434
d ending.

447
00:16:42,294 --> 00:16:44,375
I'm in recovery, and I'll be in recovery

448
00:16:44,375 --> 00:16:45,654
forever. I don't even like to call it

449
00:16:45,654 --> 00:16:47,034
recovery. I'll call it self mastery.

450
00:16:48,350 --> 00:16:50,429
Call it self mastery. I think recovery comes

451
00:16:50,429 --> 00:16:51,870
with with this I think it has a

452
00:16:51,870 --> 00:16:53,309
little bit of a sad kind of negative

453
00:16:53,309 --> 00:16:54,910
tone to it because of how it's been

454
00:16:54,910 --> 00:16:55,809
tied to addiction.

455
00:16:56,110 --> 00:16:57,870
I like calling it self mastery. I'm gonna

456
00:16:57,870 --> 00:16:59,790
I'm gonna master self and show up in

457
00:16:59,790 --> 00:17:01,009
an authentic way,

458
00:17:01,455 --> 00:17:03,455
that I'm proud of and leave a legacy

459
00:17:03,455 --> 00:17:05,855
that I'm proud of. And the cool thing

460
00:17:05,855 --> 00:17:08,015
is the sexual behaviors are not part of

461
00:17:08,015 --> 00:17:09,934
that recipe. So rather than focusing on them,

462
00:17:09,934 --> 00:17:12,815
I just focus on how how much of

463
00:17:12,815 --> 00:17:15,634
how much of myself am I in control

464
00:17:15,775 --> 00:17:16,275
of,

465
00:17:17,029 --> 00:17:18,950
and how much am I still letting what

466
00:17:18,950 --> 00:17:21,190
others have taught me dictate how I'm gonna

467
00:17:21,190 --> 00:17:23,109
act today? That's recovery to me. It's not

468
00:17:23,190 --> 00:17:24,950
has nothing to do with sex and porn.

469
00:17:24,950 --> 00:17:26,169
It has to do Right.

470
00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:29,109
Am I am I letting other things influence

471
00:17:29,109 --> 00:17:31,029
my behavior or am I the one driving

472
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:33,255
the ship? And, to me, recovery is all

473
00:17:33,255 --> 00:17:35,974
about intentional living. And so yeah. If if

474
00:17:35,974 --> 00:17:38,454
you guys don't like recovery, cool. Stop recovering

475
00:17:38,454 --> 00:17:40,234
and get into self mastery instead.

476
00:17:40,615 --> 00:17:42,634
Right. If recovery is about deprivation,

477
00:17:43,829 --> 00:17:46,329
then that will only trigger you into

478
00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:48,089
all of the deprivation

479
00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:50,890
and attachment breaches and

480
00:17:51,429 --> 00:17:54,230
unmet needs and wants of childhood for most

481
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:57,190
of us. That's absolutely true. That's my story.

482
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:57,589
That,

483
00:17:58,805 --> 00:18:00,644
part of it at least that's true for

484
00:18:00,644 --> 00:18:01,625
me. And so,

485
00:18:02,964 --> 00:18:05,224
I don't really think about being in recovery

486
00:18:05,285 --> 00:18:07,464
from sex and love addiction specifically

487
00:18:07,765 --> 00:18:10,404
either. Most of the time, for me, the

488
00:18:10,404 --> 00:18:11,190
frame has

489
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:14,250
changed to, I am always in process.

490
00:18:14,629 --> 00:18:18,649
Mhmm. I'm always a growing person. I am,

491
00:18:20,230 --> 00:18:20,730
learning

492
00:18:21,190 --> 00:18:23,049
every day more how to thrive,

493
00:18:25,065 --> 00:18:26,904
how to and it and all of that

494
00:18:26,904 --> 00:18:29,384
brings me joy. Mhmm. And it started with

495
00:18:29,384 --> 00:18:32,045
this terrible thing called sexual abuse and

496
00:18:32,585 --> 00:18:34,125
problematic sexual behavior.

497
00:18:35,944 --> 00:18:38,809
But, boy, what a launching pad. And and

498
00:18:39,109 --> 00:18:41,049
today, I'm grateful for that.

499
00:18:42,069 --> 00:18:42,710
It's a

500
00:18:43,429 --> 00:18:45,349
you know, the way I when when you're

501
00:18:45,349 --> 00:18:46,809
talking about that, the way I

502
00:18:47,429 --> 00:18:48,730
kind of see it is,

503
00:18:50,565 --> 00:18:53,044
am I if I'm going to if I'm

504
00:18:53,044 --> 00:18:54,825
gonna live my life differently,

505
00:18:55,684 --> 00:18:56,184
then

506
00:18:56,565 --> 00:18:57,544
I have to

507
00:18:58,005 --> 00:18:59,224
go back to

508
00:19:01,125 --> 00:19:03,204
why this happened, and I have to examine

509
00:19:03,204 --> 00:19:04,184
really the triggers

510
00:19:04,484 --> 00:19:07,059
that are gonna keep presenting themselves. For example,

511
00:19:07,059 --> 00:19:08,419
I had a time, this was not that

512
00:19:08,419 --> 00:19:10,740
long ago, all six of my businesses were

513
00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:12,039
getting their butts kicked.

514
00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:14,519
And, I've never had that before.

515
00:19:15,299 --> 00:19:17,059
Usually the nice thing I like about owning

516
00:19:17,059 --> 00:19:19,455
six is usually if they're getting their butts

517
00:19:19,455 --> 00:19:21,555
kicked, three of them are doing well.

518
00:19:22,015 --> 00:19:23,855
And so to have all six get their

519
00:19:23,855 --> 00:19:25,634
butts kicked for different reasons,

520
00:19:25,934 --> 00:19:27,315
I felt like a failure,

521
00:19:27,775 --> 00:19:28,914
I felt inadequate,

522
00:19:29,695 --> 00:19:31,134
I was working my face off, I could

523
00:19:31,134 --> 00:19:33,210
not get them to course correct, they just

524
00:19:33,210 --> 00:19:34,730
kept getting worse and worse and worse, so

525
00:19:34,730 --> 00:19:36,589
I felt like I was not enough

526
00:19:36,970 --> 00:19:38,569
to be I felt like my best wasn't

527
00:19:38,569 --> 00:19:39,069
enough.

528
00:19:39,690 --> 00:19:42,089
And then more importantly, I because none of

529
00:19:42,089 --> 00:19:43,710
them were winning, I felt unappreciated,

530
00:19:44,089 --> 00:19:44,589
unseen,

531
00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:45,950
unaccomplished.

532
00:19:46,809 --> 00:19:48,990
And man, I will tell you what, I,

533
00:19:49,985 --> 00:19:51,525
all of those maladaptive

534
00:19:52,384 --> 00:19:55,125
pathways that led to my sex addiction were

535
00:19:55,184 --> 00:19:57,904
active. I mean, I I felt like an

536
00:19:57,904 --> 00:19:59,985
addict again. Now I didn't act on any

537
00:19:59,985 --> 00:20:01,664
of them, but, man, I will tell you

538
00:20:01,664 --> 00:20:02,805
what, I was,

539
00:20:03,759 --> 00:20:05,200
you know, it was as high risk as

540
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,220
it gets. I mean, I I I genuinely

541
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:08,819
had thoughts of doing,

542
00:20:09,679 --> 00:20:12,079
divorceable behaviors. I mean, I got that close.

543
00:20:12,079 --> 00:20:13,779
So I say this to every guy listening,

544
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,339
you know, that's the danger of

545
00:20:16,865 --> 00:20:19,105
being recovered and having this out of your

546
00:20:19,105 --> 00:20:19,605
life

547
00:20:20,305 --> 00:20:21,984
is it's all fun and games until you

548
00:20:21,984 --> 00:20:24,144
get you find yourself in a really difficult

549
00:20:24,144 --> 00:20:24,644
position

550
00:20:25,184 --> 00:20:27,265
and, then what? Right? And I think a

551
00:20:27,265 --> 00:20:28,945
lot of us all, you know, in our

552
00:20:28,945 --> 00:20:30,419
right minds like to say, oh, no. No.

553
00:20:30,419 --> 00:20:32,179
No. I wouldn't do that back then. But

554
00:20:32,179 --> 00:20:34,099
again, you know, you don't know until you're

555
00:20:34,099 --> 00:20:35,779
there. You know? And I would say you're

556
00:20:35,779 --> 00:20:37,299
not in your right mind when you're there.

557
00:20:37,299 --> 00:20:40,099
And so Right. I think to say that

558
00:20:40,099 --> 00:20:42,419
that's not gonna happen is pretty naive because

559
00:20:42,419 --> 00:20:44,179
we all know what we're capable of when

560
00:20:44,179 --> 00:20:45,565
we're in a superegoic

561
00:20:45,865 --> 00:20:46,684
state and,

562
00:20:47,384 --> 00:20:49,065
or capable of a lot of things that

563
00:20:49,065 --> 00:20:50,744
we would never do in our in our

564
00:20:50,744 --> 00:20:51,484
right mind.

565
00:20:51,944 --> 00:20:54,664
Right. I I would agree with that. And

566
00:20:54,664 --> 00:20:56,924
it's not just looking at the triggers. Those

567
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,200
challenges in business are the triggers, but it's

568
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,859
looking at all the false core beliefs. Mhmm.

569
00:21:03,319 --> 00:21:05,640
I I believe with all my heart that

570
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:06,140
these

571
00:21:06,519 --> 00:21:08,599
issues that some of us face and that

572
00:21:08,599 --> 00:21:10,539
can just absolutely destroy us

573
00:21:11,714 --> 00:21:14,515
aren't about whatever the specific issue is. Just

574
00:21:14,515 --> 00:21:17,015
exactly as you've been saying. These are about

575
00:21:17,234 --> 00:21:18,855
deep core wounds.

576
00:21:19,875 --> 00:21:21,634
You don't just wake up and think I'm

577
00:21:21,634 --> 00:21:22,855
not good enough.

578
00:21:23,569 --> 00:21:24,950
That comes from somewhere.

579
00:21:25,329 --> 00:21:27,250
You don't just wake up and think, gosh,

580
00:21:27,250 --> 00:21:28,049
I really wanna be

581
00:21:28,849 --> 00:21:29,349
people

582
00:21:29,650 --> 00:21:32,450
have pay me attention and I wanna be

583
00:21:32,450 --> 00:21:32,950
valued.

584
00:21:33,490 --> 00:21:35,029
All of that comes from somewhere.

585
00:21:35,569 --> 00:21:36,069
And

586
00:21:36,734 --> 00:21:37,234
mostly,

587
00:21:37,535 --> 00:21:39,694
when we have challenges with those, it comes

588
00:21:39,694 --> 00:21:42,095
because those needs did not get met for

589
00:21:42,095 --> 00:21:43,855
for us. So one of the things about

590
00:21:43,855 --> 00:21:44,914
long term recovery

591
00:21:45,295 --> 00:21:47,315
that I mean of always being in process

592
00:21:47,615 --> 00:21:48,115
is

593
00:21:48,589 --> 00:21:51,570
is to always be aware of those things

594
00:21:51,950 --> 00:21:53,570
and always be returning,

595
00:21:54,589 --> 00:21:56,529
in deeper healing to those wounds.

596
00:21:56,990 --> 00:21:58,910
And I know at different times in my

597
00:21:58,910 --> 00:22:00,369
own journey, I would get

598
00:22:01,230 --> 00:22:02,609
really pissed off, frankly,

599
00:22:03,470 --> 00:22:05,555
that, oh my gosh. I've got to go

600
00:22:05,555 --> 00:22:07,555
back to therapy. You know? I thought I

601
00:22:07,555 --> 00:22:09,715
had dealt with this I so wanna be

602
00:22:09,715 --> 00:22:12,115
chosen stuff. And now here I am in

603
00:22:12,115 --> 00:22:13,654
this place again. And today,

604
00:22:14,115 --> 00:22:15,815
I look at that like, you know what?

605
00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:17,849
I get to go back

606
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:19,769
and get some,

607
00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:22,549
additional help. I've remained off and on in

608
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:24,869
in counseling all of my since I've entered

609
00:22:24,869 --> 00:22:26,809
this process at age 35.

610
00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:28,490
I get to

611
00:22:29,365 --> 00:22:31,444
heal a deeper way. It may be the

612
00:22:31,444 --> 00:22:33,765
same issue, but I'm now way at a

613
00:22:33,765 --> 00:22:34,265
different

614
00:22:34,724 --> 00:22:36,825
point in dealing with that issue.

615
00:22:37,684 --> 00:22:40,325
And that's a good thing. Mhmm. That's not

616
00:22:40,325 --> 00:22:41,224
a bad thing.

617
00:22:41,525 --> 00:22:43,065
And, again, for really

618
00:22:43,919 --> 00:22:44,819
driven people,

619
00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:48,659
for these these very successful people,

620
00:22:50,399 --> 00:22:51,299
very capable,

621
00:22:52,159 --> 00:22:52,659
just

622
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,500
really powerful people

623
00:22:55,279 --> 00:22:56,019
to admit,

624
00:22:57,955 --> 00:23:01,235
I'm still having some challenges with stuff I

625
00:23:01,235 --> 00:23:04,295
have already dealt with. Welcome to life.

626
00:23:05,795 --> 00:23:07,875
That's how it works, and that's a good

627
00:23:07,875 --> 00:23:09,414
thing. It's not a bad thing.

628
00:23:09,955 --> 00:23:11,975
Well, I think the thing too is,

629
00:23:12,759 --> 00:23:15,160
you know, of all my super successful friends,

630
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:16,920
I mean, I would say one in a

631
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:17,420
100

632
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:20,940
was driven by a genuine

633
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:21,740
desire

634
00:23:23,079 --> 00:23:25,079
to scale and build whatever it was they're

635
00:23:25,079 --> 00:23:27,099
building. I would say the other 99

636
00:23:27,955 --> 00:23:29,795
built it from a dark place, a place

637
00:23:29,795 --> 00:23:32,515
of inadequacy, a place of not enoughness, a

638
00:23:32,515 --> 00:23:33,494
place of

639
00:23:33,875 --> 00:23:35,555
I don't want anyone to say anything bad

640
00:23:35,555 --> 00:23:37,394
about me ever again, a place of I'll

641
00:23:37,394 --> 00:23:39,414
prove them wrong, I'll show them.

642
00:23:40,035 --> 00:23:41,970
That was a lot of mine was, you

643
00:23:41,970 --> 00:23:43,809
know, the the church I grew up in

644
00:23:43,809 --> 00:23:45,250
treated me like I was gonna be some

645
00:23:45,250 --> 00:23:46,950
sort of degenerate and,

646
00:23:47,730 --> 00:23:49,269
I knew I wasn't and so

647
00:23:49,650 --> 00:23:51,650
the, you know, next thirty years of my

648
00:23:51,650 --> 00:23:52,470
life was

649
00:23:52,849 --> 00:23:54,929
I'll I'll become more successful in all of

650
00:23:54,929 --> 00:23:56,454
your kids combined. And,

651
00:23:56,855 --> 00:23:58,694
and again it's just that's not healthy, you

652
00:23:58,694 --> 00:24:00,294
know, if we look at that. So why

653
00:24:00,294 --> 00:24:01,575
do I bring that up? I bring that

654
00:24:01,575 --> 00:24:03,254
up because well for two reasons, one, a

655
00:24:03,254 --> 00:24:05,174
lot of high achievers don't think they are

656
00:24:05,174 --> 00:24:07,974
experiencing negative emotions, that what I just said

657
00:24:07,974 --> 00:24:09,674
is is a negative emotion.

658
00:24:10,134 --> 00:24:11,539
But there were second reason I bring this

659
00:24:11,539 --> 00:24:13,799
up is kinda like what you said before.

660
00:24:13,940 --> 00:24:14,839
Again, the

661
00:24:15,539 --> 00:24:17,779
the reason that all six of my businesses

662
00:24:17,779 --> 00:24:19,079
getting their butts kicked

663
00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:21,320
was a trigger, was because

664
00:24:21,779 --> 00:24:24,285
I need them, I need the success. I

665
00:24:24,285 --> 00:24:26,205
need to buy the things that I can

666
00:24:26,205 --> 00:24:27,644
with all the money that they're gonna make

667
00:24:27,644 --> 00:24:31,505
me to feel good. To feel okay. Right.

668
00:24:31,565 --> 00:24:33,404
To feel like they're not going to reject

669
00:24:33,404 --> 00:24:34,924
me and not wanna hang out with me.

670
00:24:34,924 --> 00:24:36,205
And again, I think this is one of

671
00:24:36,205 --> 00:24:37,585
the complicated things about,

672
00:24:38,220 --> 00:24:39,500
successful male culture is

673
00:24:40,940 --> 00:24:42,859
and I hate this part about successful male

674
00:24:42,859 --> 00:24:44,299
culture. I really do. I hate it. It's

675
00:24:44,299 --> 00:24:45,980
so toxic, but it's it's true and it

676
00:24:45,980 --> 00:24:47,119
happens all the time.

677
00:24:47,579 --> 00:24:50,640
When I became successful, Marnie, doors open.

678
00:24:51,065 --> 00:24:52,765
People wanted to come over to my house.

679
00:24:53,305 --> 00:24:54,825
People wanted me to come over to their

680
00:24:54,825 --> 00:24:55,325
house.

681
00:24:55,704 --> 00:24:57,704
People wanted to ride in my car. People

682
00:24:57,704 --> 00:25:00,025
wanted to see my wristwatch collection. People wanted,

683
00:25:00,025 --> 00:25:01,085
like, all of a sudden,

684
00:25:02,025 --> 00:25:04,505
people took interest in me now that I

685
00:25:04,505 --> 00:25:06,210
I reached a certain level of success, and

686
00:25:06,210 --> 00:25:07,309
I think that's

687
00:25:07,929 --> 00:25:10,250
I I hate that part about success because

688
00:25:10,250 --> 00:25:11,789
it validates something

689
00:25:12,329 --> 00:25:13,230
that in recovery,

690
00:25:15,130 --> 00:25:15,710
we really

691
00:25:16,169 --> 00:25:18,734
would do better if it wasn't validated. Because,

692
00:25:18,815 --> 00:25:20,815
again, a lot of the successful men struggle

693
00:25:20,815 --> 00:25:22,335
in recovery, and I I don't think they

694
00:25:22,335 --> 00:25:23,154
know this, but

695
00:25:23,615 --> 00:25:26,674
a lot of their success was driven by,

696
00:25:27,454 --> 00:25:29,315
egoic states of superiority,

697
00:25:30,015 --> 00:25:30,674
of dominance,

698
00:25:30,974 --> 00:25:31,474
power.

699
00:25:31,775 --> 00:25:32,434
And so

700
00:25:32,890 --> 00:25:34,089
they a lot of them feel like, well,

701
00:25:34,089 --> 00:25:35,849
if I stop that, I won't be successful.

702
00:25:35,849 --> 00:25:37,849
And I kind of am on their side

703
00:25:37,849 --> 00:25:38,669
a little bit

704
00:25:38,970 --> 00:25:40,809
because I see why they're drawing such a

705
00:25:40,809 --> 00:25:43,609
conclusion because they that was a very good

706
00:25:43,609 --> 00:25:46,250
observation. A lot of their success was driven

707
00:25:46,250 --> 00:25:48,125
from a place of hate, anger,

708
00:25:48,505 --> 00:25:49,565
spite, resentment.

709
00:25:51,224 --> 00:25:53,224
But here's my here here's what I'd always

710
00:25:53,224 --> 00:25:54,684
propose to them is,

711
00:25:55,464 --> 00:25:57,705
man, if you've been this successful full of

712
00:25:57,705 --> 00:25:59,945
hate, imagine how successful you're gonna be when

713
00:25:59,945 --> 00:26:00,779
you're full of love.

714
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:04,299
And what I think too is that, yes,

715
00:26:04,299 --> 00:26:06,700
having the wealth and the the success and

716
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:08,299
all of that opens a lot of doors

717
00:26:08,299 --> 00:26:10,720
and and draws people to you.

718
00:26:11,259 --> 00:26:14,240
But what's also true, see, is genuine

719
00:26:15,019 --> 00:26:15,519
presence,

720
00:26:16,335 --> 00:26:17,474
genuine integrity,

721
00:26:18,255 --> 00:26:21,075
genuine calm and serenity inside

722
00:26:22,174 --> 00:26:24,194
that that core of

723
00:26:24,575 --> 00:26:26,575
I I am enough. And if all these

724
00:26:26,575 --> 00:26:27,954
six businesses tank,

725
00:26:28,630 --> 00:26:31,750
they tank, and I'll start over because I

726
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:32,490
am enough.

727
00:26:32,869 --> 00:26:34,009
That kinda attitude

728
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:37,429
draws a whole different kind of people who

729
00:26:37,429 --> 00:26:39,910
value you for you and not for all

730
00:26:39,910 --> 00:26:42,355
the money you make or, you know, y'all

731
00:26:42,355 --> 00:26:44,054
are comparing size of cars

732
00:26:44,434 --> 00:26:46,035
and bank accounts and all this kind of

733
00:26:46,035 --> 00:26:48,515
stuff. And so it has its own sweet

734
00:26:48,515 --> 00:26:50,134
reward. It's just different.

735
00:26:50,595 --> 00:26:53,234
But what also happens about that, Roland, is

736
00:26:53,234 --> 00:26:54,855
it makes you a better leader.

737
00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:57,450
It makes you more successful

738
00:26:58,309 --> 00:27:00,410
in some of these tangible material

739
00:27:01,029 --> 00:27:02,410
business y kind of ways,

740
00:27:03,109 --> 00:27:05,609
because it's, again, coming from a place of

741
00:27:05,829 --> 00:27:08,170
presence. It's coming from a place of compassion,

742
00:27:08,595 --> 00:27:11,554
Self compassion, but compassion for other people. It's

743
00:27:12,994 --> 00:27:15,335
when you get off the power trip Mhmm.

744
00:27:18,035 --> 00:27:19,654
Then then the way you view

745
00:27:20,035 --> 00:27:21,815
life and people and situations

746
00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:24,599
changes. I think that's part of what drives

747
00:27:25,380 --> 00:27:26,440
positive philanthropy.

748
00:27:26,820 --> 00:27:28,420
Mhmm. And part of it is look at

749
00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:30,259
me. I've got my name on the, you

750
00:27:30,259 --> 00:27:33,000
know, Red Cross building or whatever it is.

751
00:27:33,140 --> 00:27:33,640
But

752
00:27:35,005 --> 00:27:38,044
but but the genuine kind is that kind

753
00:27:38,044 --> 00:27:38,784
that nobody

754
00:27:39,565 --> 00:27:40,065
knows.

755
00:27:41,085 --> 00:27:43,644
You know? It's that it's that kind that

756
00:27:43,644 --> 00:27:45,244
is just doing good for the sake of

757
00:27:45,244 --> 00:27:45,984
doing good.

758
00:27:46,684 --> 00:27:49,390
So Well, I I what I had this

759
00:27:49,390 --> 00:27:51,230
conversation with Troy Love. I don't know if

760
00:27:51,230 --> 00:27:53,070
you've met Troy. I love Troy.

761
00:27:53,630 --> 00:27:55,630
I had this conversation with Troy. Troy was

762
00:27:55,630 --> 00:27:57,230
saying and I really loved it, and it

763
00:27:57,230 --> 00:27:58,850
resonated with a lot of my audience.

764
00:27:59,230 --> 00:28:02,174
He was saying, what's real masculinity, though? Like,

765
00:28:02,174 --> 00:28:03,934
when you really you know, when when when

766
00:28:03,934 --> 00:28:06,335
you look at, like, as it's been studied,

767
00:28:06,335 --> 00:28:08,495
you know, what what is the masculine? And,

768
00:28:08,495 --> 00:28:10,414
again, masculine is not just for everybody listening.

769
00:28:10,414 --> 00:28:11,795
Masculine is not male.

770
00:28:12,495 --> 00:28:14,674
Everybody has masculine and feminine,

771
00:28:15,740 --> 00:28:17,580
traits and powers about them. It's just it's

772
00:28:17,580 --> 00:28:19,420
just an it's an energy signature is what

773
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:20,859
it's the way I describe it. So just

774
00:28:20,859 --> 00:28:21,359
because

775
00:28:21,660 --> 00:28:22,480
some, you know,

776
00:28:23,019 --> 00:28:25,420
masculine is not men, women can have a

777
00:28:25,420 --> 00:28:28,525
masculine can bring a masculine energy signature in,

778
00:28:28,765 --> 00:28:30,444
their leadership skills too. So it's a it's

779
00:28:30,444 --> 00:28:32,125
an energy signature, not a not a gender

780
00:28:32,125 --> 00:28:34,765
issue. But, Marnie, yeah, you're so true. When

781
00:28:34,765 --> 00:28:36,305
you look at what masculine

782
00:28:37,085 --> 00:28:37,984
energy signature

783
00:28:38,285 --> 00:28:39,184
really is,

784
00:28:40,204 --> 00:28:41,805
as I it was you know, Troy was

785
00:28:41,805 --> 00:28:43,349
reading this thing to me, and it was

786
00:28:43,349 --> 00:28:45,269
I was listening to it, and it's so

787
00:28:45,269 --> 00:28:46,789
funny. It's like, I look at a lot

788
00:28:46,789 --> 00:28:47,690
of these entrepreneurs

789
00:28:48,230 --> 00:28:49,769
who are, you know, in the spot.

790
00:28:50,230 --> 00:28:52,549
They a lot of it is feminine. It's

791
00:28:52,549 --> 00:28:53,609
a lot of, like,

792
00:28:54,069 --> 00:28:54,970
am I okay?

793
00:28:55,349 --> 00:28:56,630
Am I you know, it's a lot of

794
00:28:56,710 --> 00:28:59,804
it's it's not masculine energy signatures. There's a

795
00:28:59,804 --> 00:29:03,085
lot of, like, fear, somebody nurture me, somebody

796
00:29:03,085 --> 00:29:05,565
notice me, somebody care for me, somebody you

797
00:29:05,565 --> 00:29:07,984
know, when you look at masculine energy signature,

798
00:29:09,244 --> 00:29:10,464
it's this silent

799
00:29:11,005 --> 00:29:12,544
leadership. It's the silent

800
00:29:12,929 --> 00:29:14,769
piece of, you know, it's it's the lion

801
00:29:14,769 --> 00:29:17,169
in the pack of, hey, everything's gonna be

802
00:29:17,169 --> 00:29:18,849
okay. I got this. It's alright. You guys

803
00:29:18,849 --> 00:29:20,769
can go sleep. It's it's it's everything's gonna

804
00:29:20,769 --> 00:29:23,009
be fine. It's this it's not loud. It's

805
00:29:23,009 --> 00:29:25,990
not boisterous. It's not proving something. It's not

806
00:29:26,129 --> 00:29:26,869
it's this

807
00:29:27,274 --> 00:29:29,835
quiet calmness of, hey. I hear you. And,

808
00:29:30,234 --> 00:29:31,134
and that's okay.

809
00:29:31,595 --> 00:29:32,875
I'm I'm I'm I'm here. I got this.

810
00:29:32,875 --> 00:29:34,815
I'm gonna do my best. And I I,

811
00:29:35,674 --> 00:29:37,274
I I liked when he brought that up

812
00:29:37,274 --> 00:29:38,954
because it it thought about two things. One,

813
00:29:38,954 --> 00:29:40,875
it thought about a leadership style that I

814
00:29:40,875 --> 00:29:42,750
aspire to. So when I'm, again, when I'm

815
00:29:42,829 --> 00:29:44,049
looking at my own recovery,

816
00:29:45,150 --> 00:29:47,329
am I bringing that calm, certain,

817
00:29:48,269 --> 00:29:49,490
confident, peaceful,

818
00:29:50,190 --> 00:29:50,690
masculine,

819
00:29:51,150 --> 00:29:53,250
energy signature to the room,

820
00:29:53,630 --> 00:29:55,630
or am I acting like a a a

821
00:29:55,630 --> 00:29:57,884
little boy who's afraid. Right? But the other

822
00:29:57,884 --> 00:29:59,244
thing that it brought me up for the

823
00:29:59,244 --> 00:30:00,865
married men listening to this,

824
00:30:01,884 --> 00:30:03,404
Troy was actually bringing it up in this

825
00:30:03,404 --> 00:30:05,965
context of the betrayal dynamic. You know, a

826
00:30:05,965 --> 00:30:07,965
lot of the times once you and your

827
00:30:07,965 --> 00:30:09,644
wife are in a little bit more advanced

828
00:30:09,644 --> 00:30:12,225
recovery, let's call it post post year one,

829
00:30:12,460 --> 00:30:14,299
You know, that's really what a lot that's

830
00:30:14,299 --> 00:30:14,799
really

831
00:30:15,259 --> 00:30:17,119
a lot of it is testing

832
00:30:17,820 --> 00:30:19,980
testing you. You know, hey. If I tell

833
00:30:19,980 --> 00:30:21,360
you that I'm freaking out,

834
00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:24,700
are you gonna bring that that peace, that

835
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:26,715
that calmness that, hey, we're in recovery. I'm

836
00:30:26,715 --> 00:30:28,075
here for you. I'm gonna do everything I

837
00:30:28,075 --> 00:30:30,894
can. I'm ready to I'll be radically transparent

838
00:30:30,955 --> 00:30:33,434
even if it's uncomfortable. Like, I'm gonna show

839
00:30:33,434 --> 00:30:35,914
up in this masculine ownership way for this

840
00:30:35,994 --> 00:30:37,375
for you and for this family.

841
00:30:38,075 --> 00:30:39,855
You know, towards those later stages,

842
00:30:40,539 --> 00:30:42,380
you know and again, I'm I'm I don't

843
00:30:42,380 --> 00:30:45,259
wanna overgeneralize because for people listening, this may

844
00:30:45,259 --> 00:30:47,019
not be what your wife's doing. She might

845
00:30:47,019 --> 00:30:48,460
not be testing you. She might just be

846
00:30:48,460 --> 00:30:50,380
pissed at you because you're acting like an

847
00:30:50,380 --> 00:30:52,539
a hole. But, you know, there are some

848
00:30:52,539 --> 00:30:54,539
times where, you know, people are looking for

849
00:30:54,539 --> 00:30:56,654
that. So that kinda came to my,

850
00:30:57,434 --> 00:30:58,955
front of my brain, Marnie, when you mentioned

851
00:30:58,955 --> 00:31:00,494
that because it is to me,

852
00:31:00,795 --> 00:31:02,715
really, if you're gonna go forward in this,

853
00:31:02,715 --> 00:31:04,234
it really is a call for some of

854
00:31:04,234 --> 00:31:04,734
that,

855
00:31:05,674 --> 00:31:08,075
masculine certainty. And again, it's not look how

856
00:31:08,075 --> 00:31:10,494
big my house is masculine certainty. It's,

857
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:12,559
I'm gonna be okay no matter what. I

858
00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:14,000
mean, how cool is that? I mean, that's

859
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,420
to me, that's real confidence is

860
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,820
I could lose all my net worth

861
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,440
and I'm still gonna be me and I'm

862
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,039
okay with that because no one could take

863
00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:25,454
me from me. That right there is, you

864
00:31:25,454 --> 00:31:26,815
know, for me in my recovery, that's what

865
00:31:26,815 --> 00:31:27,714
I aspire to.

866
00:31:28,894 --> 00:31:30,835
I I hear that, and I

867
00:31:31,375 --> 00:31:32,894
a part of me agrees with all of

868
00:31:32,894 --> 00:31:34,815
that. I'll be honest. I'm having a little

869
00:31:34,815 --> 00:31:35,714
bit of a reaction.

870
00:31:36,255 --> 00:31:37,394
Feminine energy

871
00:31:37,775 --> 00:31:39,954
is kick ass strong.

872
00:31:41,220 --> 00:31:42,519
Real you know,

873
00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:44,200
if if you have

874
00:31:45,380 --> 00:31:47,460
been with a woman who is giving birth,

875
00:31:47,460 --> 00:31:49,559
there is nothing stronger than that.

876
00:31:49,940 --> 00:31:51,000
I've done that twice,

877
00:31:51,619 --> 00:31:52,839
with natural childbirth.

878
00:31:54,740 --> 00:31:57,295
And so I think it's I think our

879
00:31:57,295 --> 00:31:59,855
culture says, you know, the emotions is the

880
00:31:59,855 --> 00:32:01,455
feminine energy and all that kind of stuff.

881
00:32:01,455 --> 00:32:04,335
And Right. Mhmm. And and I I get

882
00:32:04,335 --> 00:32:06,355
my heckles up about that. I'll tell you.

883
00:32:06,654 --> 00:32:08,575
I think what we're looking for is a

884
00:32:08,575 --> 00:32:11,955
whole integrated self Mhmm. That has that

885
00:32:12,299 --> 00:32:15,019
strength and that protection and those kinds of

886
00:32:15,019 --> 00:32:15,519
things,

887
00:32:16,140 --> 00:32:18,140
that is fully in touch with emotion and

888
00:32:18,140 --> 00:32:19,519
fully in touch with compassion

889
00:32:19,820 --> 00:32:22,620
and very aware of needs and and and

890
00:32:22,620 --> 00:32:23,759
more of a genuine

891
00:32:24,059 --> 00:32:24,559
inter

892
00:32:25,205 --> 00:32:25,705
and

893
00:32:26,484 --> 00:32:28,164
marriage of all the different Yeah. The I

894
00:32:28,164 --> 00:32:29,684
I agree that I think I know you.

895
00:32:29,765 --> 00:32:32,244
Where it all went wrong was when we

896
00:32:32,244 --> 00:32:33,305
assigned gender

897
00:32:34,085 --> 00:32:36,724
Yeah. To it and not Yeah. Because, again,

898
00:32:36,724 --> 00:32:38,884
you know, the the real leader has room

899
00:32:38,884 --> 00:32:41,589
for both. He's Right. Okay. He's calm. He's

900
00:32:41,589 --> 00:32:43,509
confident. He knows who he is, and he

901
00:32:43,509 --> 00:32:45,190
knows that no one can take him from

902
00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:48,470
him. And then the real leader who holds

903
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:49,130
simultaneously

904
00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:53,085
holds feminine energy signatures also has room for

905
00:32:53,085 --> 00:32:55,005
the pain and suffering of others, has,

906
00:32:56,045 --> 00:32:57,805
you know, wants to crawl into the hole

907
00:32:57,884 --> 00:33:00,305
and himself. Correct. Yeah. And and self compassion.

908
00:33:00,365 --> 00:33:02,065
You know, wants to crawl in the hole

909
00:33:02,204 --> 00:33:04,365
with those who are suffering because he has

910
00:33:04,365 --> 00:33:06,125
room for it. Right? And I think that's

911
00:33:06,380 --> 00:33:07,660
you know, I think you need both. I

912
00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:09,259
think I think you do need both. In

913
00:33:09,259 --> 00:33:11,580
order to have the certainty and bravery to

914
00:33:11,580 --> 00:33:14,000
crawl into the hole of someone else's suffering,

915
00:33:14,220 --> 00:33:16,480
I think you have to have the masculine

916
00:33:16,860 --> 00:33:18,480
energy signature to

917
00:33:18,865 --> 00:33:21,505
create room for you to bring the feminine

918
00:33:21,505 --> 00:33:23,984
energy in and, you know, hold that hold

919
00:33:23,984 --> 00:33:25,744
that space for somebody who needs it and

920
00:33:25,744 --> 00:33:27,345
and hold that space for yourself, you know,

921
00:33:27,345 --> 00:33:28,484
that that ignoring

922
00:33:29,105 --> 00:33:31,345
ignoring emotions. We all know that where that

923
00:33:31,345 --> 00:33:33,380
leads us. Right? Absolutely. And and again, I

924
00:33:33,380 --> 00:33:34,819
think I would I would say some of

925
00:33:34,819 --> 00:33:35,640
the best leaders

926
00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:38,740
offer up of more of a feminine energy

927
00:33:38,740 --> 00:33:41,000
signature than a masculine energy g signature,

928
00:33:41,380 --> 00:33:43,160
depending on who you're leading in the organization

929
00:33:43,299 --> 00:33:44,819
that you're that you're running. I mean, I

930
00:33:45,059 --> 00:33:46,660
all my leaders of all my companies are

931
00:33:46,660 --> 00:33:47,160
females.

932
00:33:47,535 --> 00:33:49,695
I tried the male thing. Oh my gosh.

933
00:33:49,695 --> 00:33:51,134
I've tried it in so many different ways.

934
00:33:51,134 --> 00:33:52,815
It never it never works. They always wanna

935
00:33:52,815 --> 00:33:54,975
do their agenda, and all the women that

936
00:33:54,975 --> 00:33:55,634
I hire

937
00:33:56,015 --> 00:33:58,515
are fine running my agenda and then

938
00:34:00,029 --> 00:34:01,570
calling me out when I'm

939
00:34:02,109 --> 00:34:04,830
violating my own agenda. Whereas, like, the men,

940
00:34:05,470 --> 00:34:06,830
they're just like, wait till Roland's out of

941
00:34:06,830 --> 00:34:08,590
the room so I can I can I

942
00:34:08,590 --> 00:34:09,949
can do whatever I want?

943
00:34:11,070 --> 00:34:12,590
The thing the other thing that I wanted

944
00:34:12,590 --> 00:34:13,969
to ask you, and this is more,

945
00:34:14,514 --> 00:34:17,474
kinda personal with your own with your own

946
00:34:17,474 --> 00:34:17,974
journey,

947
00:34:18,355 --> 00:34:20,835
is, you know, as we're talking about long

948
00:34:20,835 --> 00:34:21,335
term,

949
00:34:22,514 --> 00:34:25,494
recovery and how one maintains that,

950
00:34:25,875 --> 00:34:28,215
there's this other element, Marnie, of,

951
00:34:28,594 --> 00:34:29,894
I don't know, over,

952
00:34:30,730 --> 00:34:31,869
how do I say it,

953
00:34:32,329 --> 00:34:32,829
overconfidence

954
00:34:33,530 --> 00:34:35,210
or, you know, as you're starting to get

955
00:34:35,210 --> 00:34:36,430
in some of those later,

956
00:34:36,969 --> 00:34:37,469
stages,

957
00:34:37,769 --> 00:34:39,450
what kind of mindset do you have to

958
00:34:39,450 --> 00:34:41,289
maintain so that you're not

959
00:34:42,284 --> 00:34:44,764
I don't know, getting yourself into trouble? Because

960
00:34:44,764 --> 00:34:47,244
I do think later stage recovery does take

961
00:34:47,244 --> 00:34:47,804
a different

962
00:34:48,605 --> 00:34:50,284
a bit of a different outlook than it

963
00:34:50,284 --> 00:34:51,484
did in the first two years. You know,

964
00:34:51,484 --> 00:34:53,005
first two years is a lot of freaking

965
00:34:53,005 --> 00:34:54,605
out. It's a lot of learning. It's a

966
00:34:54,605 --> 00:34:55,199
lot of,

967
00:34:55,839 --> 00:34:56,719
crisis and,

968
00:34:57,199 --> 00:34:57,699
and,

969
00:34:58,159 --> 00:34:59,059
damage control.

970
00:34:59,839 --> 00:35:01,460
But as you go beyond that,

971
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,400
and you're gonna stay married, because I think

972
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,760
that's the goal of a lot of the

973
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,054
men in my group, what's that look like?

974
00:35:08,135 --> 00:35:10,135
And, you know, you have far more experience

975
00:35:10,135 --> 00:35:12,135
than me. You've been you've been, a, doing

976
00:35:12,135 --> 00:35:13,655
this yourself for a really, really long time,

977
00:35:13,655 --> 00:35:15,414
but you've also been surrounded by people who

978
00:35:15,414 --> 00:35:16,614
have been trying to do this for a

979
00:35:16,614 --> 00:35:18,534
really long time. If you would how do

980
00:35:18,534 --> 00:35:20,775
you, like, describe what's the difference between that

981
00:35:20,775 --> 00:35:23,574
long term recovery outlook versus a short term

982
00:35:23,574 --> 00:35:24,030
recovery

983
00:35:25,949 --> 00:35:26,449
outlook?

984
00:35:26,989 --> 00:35:29,710
First, I think long term recovery is way

985
00:35:29,710 --> 00:35:30,210
past

986
00:35:31,309 --> 00:35:33,409
year two or something. I mean, we're talking

987
00:35:34,190 --> 00:35:36,449
I don't think you're remotely getting there before,

988
00:35:36,909 --> 00:35:39,515
a good many years beyond that, but I

989
00:35:39,515 --> 00:35:41,994
just think it's a different focus. It's not

990
00:35:41,994 --> 00:35:43,855
that clawing for sobriety

991
00:35:44,155 --> 00:35:46,394
and putting out all the fires of all

992
00:35:46,394 --> 00:35:46,894
the

993
00:35:47,434 --> 00:35:49,614
havoc that has been wreaked,

994
00:35:49,914 --> 00:35:52,414
and trying to build something back together again.

995
00:35:52,474 --> 00:35:52,974
It's,

996
00:35:53,675 --> 00:35:54,255
the focus

997
00:35:54,890 --> 00:35:57,630
now is it's there's a much more stable,

998
00:35:58,969 --> 00:36:02,590
internal landscape at least. Hopefully, within a relationship,

999
00:36:02,809 --> 00:36:03,949
there's a lot more

1000
00:36:04,730 --> 00:36:07,130
healing and stability and those kinds of things.

1001
00:36:07,130 --> 00:36:09,070
And so the focus changes again

1002
00:36:10,454 --> 00:36:13,434
into into positive growth rather than

1003
00:36:14,215 --> 00:36:15,994
negative dealing with all the consequences.

1004
00:36:16,615 --> 00:36:19,255
But I think the focus also grows into

1005
00:36:19,255 --> 00:36:20,075
deeper humility

1006
00:36:20,535 --> 00:36:21,035
Mhmm.

1007
00:36:23,489 --> 00:36:25,110
And into deeper gratitude,

1008
00:36:27,250 --> 00:36:28,550
and into deeper

1009
00:36:29,250 --> 00:36:30,150
real connections

1010
00:36:30,769 --> 00:36:32,390
with with other healthy people.

1011
00:36:33,010 --> 00:36:33,510
So

1012
00:36:35,184 --> 00:36:37,344
so it's it's a difference between putting out

1013
00:36:37,344 --> 00:36:38,565
the fires and

1014
00:36:39,025 --> 00:36:41,425
and planting a garden. Yeah. No. That's I

1015
00:36:41,425 --> 00:36:43,744
I I that's so well said as I

1016
00:36:43,744 --> 00:36:44,244
was

1017
00:36:45,184 --> 00:36:48,464
reflecting on my own recovery when things really

1018
00:36:48,464 --> 00:36:50,179
shifted into a,

1019
00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:55,839
I don't wanna say effortless place, but a

1020
00:36:55,839 --> 00:36:58,480
place that required much less effort. I would

1021
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,000
agree with you there. I think it it

1022
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:00,239
it,

1023
00:37:01,855 --> 00:37:03,715
it for me, it felt like

1024
00:37:05,135 --> 00:37:07,394
I I'd really untethered from the behaviors.

1025
00:37:08,094 --> 00:37:09,614
You know, they you know, I didn't I

1026
00:37:09,614 --> 00:37:11,394
didn't you know, in the beginning, I

1027
00:37:11,855 --> 00:37:13,695
I was so entangled in them. I took

1028
00:37:13,695 --> 00:37:16,015
them personally. My wife took them personally. It

1029
00:37:16,015 --> 00:37:18,019
was, you know, it was as much as

1030
00:37:18,019 --> 00:37:20,099
we're trying not to do that, there's just

1031
00:37:20,099 --> 00:37:21,699
a lot of that. It's it's everything was

1032
00:37:21,699 --> 00:37:23,860
so personal, on both ends for my wife

1033
00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:25,539
and for me. And I I do. I

1034
00:37:25,539 --> 00:37:28,900
think it's cool later on because it becomes

1035
00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:29,719
less personal

1036
00:37:30,244 --> 00:37:32,005
And I think when it becomes less personal,

1037
00:37:32,005 --> 00:37:34,025
it becomes a lot easier to,

1038
00:37:35,285 --> 00:37:36,804
it comes a lot easier to be. I

1039
00:37:36,804 --> 00:37:38,324
I so much of my so much of

1040
00:37:38,324 --> 00:37:40,344
my thoughts now are less about,

1041
00:37:41,844 --> 00:37:44,099
the addiction and being scared of, all the

1042
00:37:44,099 --> 00:37:46,820
things that I can't do and tiptoeing around

1043
00:37:46,820 --> 00:37:49,539
and navigating landmines and, you know, I I

1044
00:37:49,539 --> 00:37:51,619
don't really think about that now. I have

1045
00:37:51,619 --> 00:37:53,160
a sense of calm about

1046
00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:55,800
will I present presented with something?

1047
00:37:56,260 --> 00:37:57,000
Yeah. Probably.

1048
00:37:57,380 --> 00:37:58,980
In the world we live in today, I

1049
00:37:58,980 --> 00:38:01,664
think assuming that you won't is naive. But

1050
00:38:01,664 --> 00:38:03,505
I I but I'm not worried about it.

1051
00:38:03,505 --> 00:38:06,144
It's it's like I'm gonna be prepared for

1052
00:38:06,144 --> 00:38:07,284
the day that it comes.

1053
00:38:07,585 --> 00:38:09,904
I'm gonna acknowledge that it could come at

1054
00:38:09,904 --> 00:38:11,525
any moment in time and

1055
00:38:11,869 --> 00:38:13,789
knowing how life works is probably gonna come

1056
00:38:13,789 --> 00:38:15,969
at me when I'm at the most vulnerable

1057
00:38:16,349 --> 00:38:18,429
when I'm at the most vulnerable position. So

1058
00:38:18,429 --> 00:38:19,869
I think that's what it is. Is it's

1059
00:38:20,190 --> 00:38:21,090
I'm no longer

1060
00:38:21,390 --> 00:38:21,890
scared

1061
00:38:22,829 --> 00:38:24,929
and freaked out. I

1062
00:38:25,230 --> 00:38:27,554
I just know that, yeah, it's it's I'm

1063
00:38:27,554 --> 00:38:28,534
not out of the woods.

1064
00:38:28,994 --> 00:38:30,434
I may never be out of the woods.

1065
00:38:30,434 --> 00:38:32,114
And then if I do think I'm out

1066
00:38:32,114 --> 00:38:33,394
of the woods, it's probably when I'm gonna

1067
00:38:33,394 --> 00:38:34,994
realize that I'm not I'm not out of

1068
00:38:34,994 --> 00:38:36,994
the woods. But I I I hold all

1069
00:38:36,994 --> 00:38:38,434
of that and I'm calm with it. I

1070
00:38:38,434 --> 00:38:40,755
just am I doing here's the way I

1071
00:38:40,755 --> 00:38:42,275
describe it. Am I doing

1072
00:38:43,050 --> 00:38:45,130
of the principles that I know someone like

1073
00:38:45,130 --> 00:38:46,730
me needs to do with my own process

1074
00:38:46,730 --> 00:38:47,230
addiction,

1075
00:38:47,610 --> 00:38:49,070
am I doing those things?

1076
00:38:49,530 --> 00:38:50,809
And, again, I think I don't you know,

1077
00:38:50,809 --> 00:38:52,809
Marnie and I aren't trying to tell anybody

1078
00:38:52,809 --> 00:38:54,650
what to do with your recovery, but I

1079
00:38:54,650 --> 00:38:56,429
think if all of our us are honest

1080
00:38:56,650 --> 00:38:57,130
about it,

1081
00:38:58,535 --> 00:39:00,535
you know, for me personally, I need I

1082
00:39:00,535 --> 00:39:01,335
need to be,

1083
00:39:02,454 --> 00:39:05,114
I need to be having deep connected vulnerable

1084
00:39:05,494 --> 00:39:05,994
conversations

1085
00:39:07,015 --> 00:39:08,555
with other men.

1086
00:39:09,094 --> 00:39:11,575
Because if I go away from that to

1087
00:39:11,575 --> 00:39:13,195
kind of our earlier discussions,

1088
00:39:13,739 --> 00:39:16,059
then we start to have gender norms come

1089
00:39:16,059 --> 00:39:17,519
in. Then I start to have,

1090
00:39:18,219 --> 00:39:20,400
I start feeling like it's not cool to

1091
00:39:20,539 --> 00:39:22,219
talk about my feelings, and I start to,

1092
00:39:22,219 --> 00:39:24,780
you know, I kinda regress into those. So,

1093
00:39:24,780 --> 00:39:26,699
again, for me, long term recovery, a lot

1094
00:39:26,699 --> 00:39:29,019
of it is what principles and practices can

1095
00:39:29,019 --> 00:39:31,525
I inject into my life that I know,

1096
00:39:33,105 --> 00:39:35,505
keep me taking two steps forward for every

1097
00:39:35,505 --> 00:39:37,585
one step back that, you know, life is

1098
00:39:37,585 --> 00:39:39,585
pulling me back? It's a I'm a lot

1099
00:39:39,585 --> 00:39:40,484
more calm,

1100
00:39:40,864 --> 00:39:42,545
and I'm just marching forward. But but I

1101
00:39:42,545 --> 00:39:44,464
just want everybody to know, in no way

1102
00:39:44,464 --> 00:39:45,695
am I it's an out of sight, I'm

1103
00:39:45,695 --> 00:39:47,159
out of mind. I mean, I I have

1104
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:49,019
them I have those things on my calendar,

1105
00:39:50,119 --> 00:39:52,039
and, if I'm if I feel like I'm

1106
00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:53,880
not getting as much out of therapy anymore,

1107
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,059
I'm gonna switch and find another therapist.

1108
00:39:56,679 --> 00:39:57,719
But I am. I'm really

1109
00:39:58,574 --> 00:39:59,875
I'm I'm hypervigilant,

1110
00:40:00,175 --> 00:40:01,534
but at the same time, it's not as

1111
00:40:01,534 --> 00:40:03,954
annoying as that sounds. I'm just hypervigilant

1112
00:40:04,414 --> 00:40:04,914
because

1113
00:40:05,534 --> 00:40:07,614
I know that relapse is a thing that

1114
00:40:07,614 --> 00:40:09,295
happens to people, and I really don't want

1115
00:40:09,295 --> 00:40:11,159
it to happen to my wife and I.

1116
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,079
And so I just I carry this thing

1117
00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:14,839
around in my pocket like a cell like

1118
00:40:14,839 --> 00:40:16,359
a cell phone or a wallet or something.

1119
00:40:16,359 --> 00:40:17,099
It's just

1120
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,039
It's an awareness. Exactly. I just it's it's

1121
00:40:20,039 --> 00:40:21,420
something that I

1122
00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:23,880
the the the way I always say it

1123
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,039
is the pros heavily outweigh or the sorry.

1124
00:40:26,039 --> 00:40:26,859
The the the,

1125
00:40:27,174 --> 00:40:29,014
yeah, the pros heavily outweigh the cons. If

1126
00:40:29,014 --> 00:40:30,614
I I've even said, you know, if my

1127
00:40:30,614 --> 00:40:32,614
wife needed to, you know, she doesn't do

1128
00:40:32,614 --> 00:40:34,954
this anymore because it's unhealthy for her recovery.

1129
00:40:35,014 --> 00:40:36,454
But, yeah, she needed to spy on me

1130
00:40:36,454 --> 00:40:37,894
for the rest of my life. I mean,

1131
00:40:37,894 --> 00:40:40,449
hey. If that if that prevents me from

1132
00:40:40,449 --> 00:40:43,010
acting out, then throw a GPS tracker on

1133
00:40:43,010 --> 00:40:44,530
my car forever. I mean, in the end,

1134
00:40:44,530 --> 00:40:46,369
I'm not, you know I just wanna stay

1135
00:40:46,369 --> 00:40:48,210
married to her. Now she doesn't do that

1136
00:40:48,210 --> 00:40:49,969
because she wants to be in healthy recovery

1137
00:40:49,969 --> 00:40:51,250
and she wants to be able to do

1138
00:40:51,250 --> 00:40:53,750
what I wanna do, and she wants to

1139
00:40:53,945 --> 00:40:55,945
leave me if I'm somebody that she doesn't

1140
00:40:55,945 --> 00:40:57,545
wanna be with. And so she doesn't want

1141
00:40:57,545 --> 00:40:59,244
to spy on my behavior. But I think

1142
00:40:59,385 --> 00:41:01,304
that's kinda how I would phrase it is

1143
00:41:01,304 --> 00:41:03,704
I've just I've kind of relaxed about all

1144
00:41:03,704 --> 00:41:04,985
of it, but at the same time, I

1145
00:41:04,985 --> 00:41:07,065
also wouldn't say that I'm any more of

1146
00:41:07,065 --> 00:41:09,300
it any less vigilant than I was upon

1147
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:10,039
day one.

1148
00:41:10,340 --> 00:41:11,940
It's just been a lot easier to be

1149
00:41:11,940 --> 00:41:13,780
vigilant. Is that do you know what I

1150
00:41:13,780 --> 00:41:14,519
mean by that?

1151
00:41:14,820 --> 00:41:17,539
Yeah. Yeah. Again, it's because you've learned to

1152
00:41:17,539 --> 00:41:19,320
do life differently. It's

1153
00:41:19,699 --> 00:41:21,945
it's it's it's just all about,

1154
00:41:22,905 --> 00:41:23,405
continuing,

1155
00:41:24,105 --> 00:41:25,164
doing life differently.

1156
00:41:25,785 --> 00:41:28,425
I wanna highlight something that you said. It

1157
00:41:28,425 --> 00:41:28,925
is

1158
00:41:29,704 --> 00:41:31,885
I mean, it's it's what you're devoting,

1159
00:41:32,985 --> 00:41:35,724
lots of of energy to at the moment.

1160
00:41:36,505 --> 00:41:37,005
Just

1161
00:41:37,610 --> 00:41:40,969
how important is the deep intimate connection with

1162
00:41:40,969 --> 00:41:41,710
other people.

1163
00:41:42,570 --> 00:41:44,750
Mhmm. And generally speaking,

1164
00:41:45,130 --> 00:41:46,989
whether one identifies as heterosexual

1165
00:41:48,410 --> 00:41:49,230
or gay,

1166
00:41:49,530 --> 00:41:50,989
we need our same

1167
00:41:51,764 --> 00:41:52,984
gender connections.

1168
00:41:53,284 --> 00:41:53,684
Mhmm.

1169
00:41:54,484 --> 00:41:54,984
And

1170
00:41:55,764 --> 00:41:58,724
and that is just we need community. We

1171
00:41:58,724 --> 00:42:00,025
are made for relationship.

1172
00:42:01,605 --> 00:42:03,444
I I believe with all my heart that

1173
00:42:03,444 --> 00:42:06,339
we are made we are hardwired for for

1174
00:42:06,339 --> 00:42:08,839
relationship. That's part of my own spiritual belief

1175
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:09,800
system,

1176
00:42:10,260 --> 00:42:13,139
relationship with God. But we're also made for

1177
00:42:13,139 --> 00:42:15,319
relationship with other people. Mhmm. And

1178
00:42:16,260 --> 00:42:18,599
and long term recovery is about

1179
00:42:19,614 --> 00:42:21,635
fostering those kinds of relationships,

1180
00:42:22,015 --> 00:42:24,755
which look very different than the typical business

1181
00:42:25,215 --> 00:42:25,715
relationship.

1182
00:42:26,015 --> 00:42:27,315
I mean, maybe you're still

1183
00:42:28,175 --> 00:42:28,675
doing

1184
00:42:28,974 --> 00:42:30,974
business on the golf course or at some

1185
00:42:30,974 --> 00:42:31,715
high end

1186
00:42:32,175 --> 00:42:33,315
restaurant or something,

1187
00:42:34,619 --> 00:42:36,859
And that's all that's fine, but but there

1188
00:42:36,859 --> 00:42:38,719
are also those very

1189
00:42:39,099 --> 00:42:39,599
genuine

1190
00:42:40,539 --> 00:42:41,679
person to person

1191
00:42:42,619 --> 00:42:43,119
relationships

1192
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:45,519
that that is really the antidote

1193
00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:46,400
to,

1194
00:42:47,420 --> 00:42:48,799
to all of the core

1195
00:42:49,815 --> 00:42:50,315
soup

1196
00:42:51,014 --> 00:42:53,655
that drives the inappropriate behavior. Well, and I

1197
00:42:53,655 --> 00:42:55,255
wanna I wanna speak to that too because

1198
00:42:55,255 --> 00:42:57,494
I think a common again, this was me

1199
00:42:57,494 --> 00:43:00,554
too. A very common misconception, especially amongst,

1200
00:43:01,014 --> 00:43:03,579
successful men. They typically are charismatic,

1201
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:04,380
extroverted,

1202
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:05,820
outgoing, confident.

1203
00:43:07,159 --> 00:43:09,260
When I heard that this was an intimacy

1204
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,360
disorder and that I had connection issues, I

1205
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:12,860
almost

1206
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,194
spit out my coffee because I'm like, I

1207
00:43:16,194 --> 00:43:17,255
speak on stage,

1208
00:43:17,714 --> 00:43:19,414
I take selfies with people,

1209
00:43:19,795 --> 00:43:22,514
like, I do not have connection issues. I

1210
00:43:22,514 --> 00:43:24,054
am constantly around

1211
00:43:24,355 --> 00:43:26,674
people all the time. I don't have well,

1212
00:43:26,674 --> 00:43:28,355
here's the thing that I learned though, Marnie,

1213
00:43:28,355 --> 00:43:30,543
and all well, I shouldn't say all, but

1214
00:43:30,543 --> 00:43:32,349
all I would say out of the 60

1215
00:43:32,410 --> 00:43:34,410
clients in my in my in my I

1216
00:43:34,410 --> 00:43:36,410
have I have six groups of 10. Out

1217
00:43:36,410 --> 00:43:39,050
of the 60 clients, I would say 59

1218
00:43:39,050 --> 00:43:40,030
of the 60,

1219
00:43:40,890 --> 00:43:42,570
all would agree with what I'm about to

1220
00:43:42,570 --> 00:43:43,390
say, which is

1221
00:43:47,224 --> 00:43:47,724
those

1222
00:43:48,025 --> 00:43:49,804
if you're only presenting

1223
00:43:51,065 --> 00:43:51,565
safe,

1224
00:43:52,744 --> 00:43:54,364
risk free information,

1225
00:43:55,224 --> 00:43:56,284
that's not connection.

1226
00:43:56,949 --> 00:43:58,710
Right. You know, I because I used to

1227
00:43:58,710 --> 00:44:00,630
always say, oh, I'm vulnerable. I'm an open

1228
00:44:00,630 --> 00:44:02,390
book. I used to always say that, and

1229
00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:04,710
I feel so stupid saying that now because,

1230
00:44:04,710 --> 00:44:05,690
no, I was not.

1231
00:44:05,989 --> 00:44:08,469
But I I was vulnerable. I would tell

1232
00:44:08,469 --> 00:44:10,789
people my weaknesses, but only the only the

1233
00:44:10,789 --> 00:44:13,025
ones that are cool. That are acceptable. I

1234
00:44:13,025 --> 00:44:15,204
wouldn't yeah. I wouldn't tell them about my

1235
00:44:15,265 --> 00:44:16,405
my sexual behavior.

1236
00:44:17,025 --> 00:44:19,025
Abs that that wouldn't come up. I wouldn't

1237
00:44:19,025 --> 00:44:21,184
tell them about you are. I wouldn't, yeah,

1238
00:44:21,184 --> 00:44:22,945
I wouldn't tell them about my wife saying,

1239
00:44:22,945 --> 00:44:24,625
hey. I don't feel like I don't feel

1240
00:44:24,625 --> 00:44:26,164
like your priority often.

1241
00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:28,519
Right? I wouldn't I don't want them to

1242
00:44:28,519 --> 00:44:30,240
know that my wife says that about me.

1243
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:31,640
I don't want them to know about my

1244
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,480
compulsive sexual behavior. I don't want them to

1245
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:33,980
know,

1246
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:35,800
that I was arrested at the age of

1247
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,039
14 because of my compulsive sexual behavior. I

1248
00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:40,380
don't want people to know that. And so

1249
00:44:40,724 --> 00:44:42,325
I'm kind of going back to what Marnie's

1250
00:44:42,325 --> 00:44:44,805
saying. I just want every successful guy listening

1251
00:44:44,805 --> 00:44:45,465
to this.

1252
00:44:46,164 --> 00:44:48,005
I have learned this and I hope everyone

1253
00:44:48,005 --> 00:44:50,805
I hope everyone hears me. That was not

1254
00:44:50,805 --> 00:44:53,864
connection, and so I if I'm constantly

1255
00:44:54,164 --> 00:44:55,785
presenting to them only

1256
00:44:56,460 --> 00:44:57,280
the convenient

1257
00:44:57,739 --> 00:45:00,699
safe information that I know I know already

1258
00:45:00,699 --> 00:45:03,099
ahead of time, I know my me saying

1259
00:45:03,099 --> 00:45:05,420
this, it's not gonna go poorly. Like, they're

1260
00:45:05,420 --> 00:45:07,500
gonna say, wow. That's great self I know

1261
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:09,675
they're gonna compliment me. Wow. That's so great

1262
00:45:09,675 --> 00:45:12,255
self awareness, Roland. And then it's gonna again,

1263
00:45:12,315 --> 00:45:14,715
right, if I know for sure that they

1264
00:45:14,715 --> 00:45:17,135
are going to embrace it and celebrate me,

1265
00:45:17,835 --> 00:45:20,414
that's not vulnerability. What I came to realize

1266
00:45:20,635 --> 00:45:22,394
with this, and I you know, a lot

1267
00:45:22,394 --> 00:45:24,094
of it's just watching in our groups,

1268
00:45:26,069 --> 00:45:28,389
these friendships, you know, the guys all say

1269
00:45:28,389 --> 00:45:30,409
it. I've I've never had friendships like this.

1270
00:45:30,469 --> 00:45:33,109
Right. Right. I've never gone in a room

1271
00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:34,010
where I

1272
00:45:35,029 --> 00:45:36,494
tell people things that I

1273
00:45:37,055 --> 00:45:39,215
that I was hoping no one would ever

1274
00:45:39,215 --> 00:45:40,914
ever ever ever ever ever know.

1275
00:45:41,375 --> 00:45:42,974
And then to you know, we talked about

1276
00:45:42,974 --> 00:45:44,434
the you know, to be loved

1277
00:45:45,055 --> 00:45:47,375
after you share it more. Right. You know,

1278
00:45:47,375 --> 00:45:49,055
that's the coolest part. And,

1279
00:45:49,615 --> 00:45:51,795
and, again, I just here's here's why

1280
00:45:53,900 --> 00:45:56,460
here's why I think it actually does it

1281
00:45:56,460 --> 00:45:58,139
maybe not forever, but for a portion of

1282
00:45:58,139 --> 00:45:59,739
time, Marnie, I do think it needs to

1283
00:45:59,739 --> 00:46:00,400
be done

1284
00:46:01,019 --> 00:46:02,400
with sex addicts

1285
00:46:03,019 --> 00:46:03,259
is

1286
00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:06,885
Yes. For sure. Is the the there's there's

1287
00:46:06,885 --> 00:46:10,825
something about this area that when you disclose

1288
00:46:10,885 --> 00:46:11,704
this stuff

1289
00:46:12,405 --> 00:46:15,045
to other people who have done it, and

1290
00:46:15,045 --> 00:46:16,164
then they embrace you,

1291
00:46:16,644 --> 00:46:17,144
afterwards,

1292
00:46:17,730 --> 00:46:18,230
I

1293
00:46:20,289 --> 00:46:22,050
you can't talk about this stuff with the

1294
00:46:22,050 --> 00:46:23,349
general pop. Not yet.

1295
00:46:23,809 --> 00:46:25,650
I hope we're getting close there, but, you

1296
00:46:25,650 --> 00:46:27,429
know, when you tell somebody that you

1297
00:46:27,809 --> 00:46:29,030
have slept with prostitutes,

1298
00:46:30,130 --> 00:46:31,429
that the general population,

1299
00:46:32,130 --> 00:46:33,349
as it stands today,

1300
00:46:33,714 --> 00:46:35,155
you know, there there there's a there's a

1301
00:46:35,155 --> 00:46:36,934
good potential that there's gonna be some judgment

1302
00:46:36,994 --> 00:46:38,694
after you say that. And

1303
00:46:39,074 --> 00:46:42,295
that's where I think I would advise guys

1304
00:46:42,755 --> 00:46:45,635
to find other sex addicts because you are

1305
00:46:45,635 --> 00:46:46,914
gonna pick up on that and you're gonna

1306
00:46:46,914 --> 00:46:48,454
hold back. And if you hold back,

1307
00:46:48,829 --> 00:46:50,690
that's the core of the problem.

1308
00:46:51,389 --> 00:46:52,909
That's the core of what Marty and I

1309
00:46:52,909 --> 00:46:54,750
are talking about. If there's something that you

1310
00:46:54,750 --> 00:46:56,670
know and you're like, well, I'll tell everybody,

1311
00:46:56,670 --> 00:46:57,489
but that,

1312
00:46:58,030 --> 00:46:59,630
again, you know, you're you're

1313
00:47:00,605 --> 00:47:04,144
that it's it's still connection ish, but, man,

1314
00:47:04,364 --> 00:47:07,164
real connections saying, I'm gonna say whatever, and

1315
00:47:07,164 --> 00:47:09,164
if this person doesn't wanna touch me or

1316
00:47:09,164 --> 00:47:11,344
see me ever again after I say this,

1317
00:47:11,484 --> 00:47:13,164
then so be it. I I don't wanna

1318
00:47:13,164 --> 00:47:14,764
be their friend anyways then if that's how

1319
00:47:14,764 --> 00:47:16,739
they're gonna treat people. That's what you can

1320
00:47:16,739 --> 00:47:17,800
get with a community

1321
00:47:18,099 --> 00:47:20,900
of other like minded sex addicts is you

1322
00:47:20,900 --> 00:47:22,420
can come and you can say it all.

1323
00:47:22,420 --> 00:47:23,860
I've had guys who will say it all,

1324
00:47:23,860 --> 00:47:25,460
but there's one little thing they're not saying

1325
00:47:25,460 --> 00:47:27,300
because they're really ashamed. And then finally, on

1326
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:28,199
the last day,

1327
00:47:28,739 --> 00:47:30,260
they'll stand up and say, hey, Rowan. Hey.

1328
00:47:30,260 --> 00:47:31,140
Before we start,

1329
00:47:31,775 --> 00:47:33,535
can I can I can I tell you

1330
00:47:33,535 --> 00:47:35,535
something that I didn't tell you guys? And

1331
00:47:35,535 --> 00:47:36,195
it happens,

1332
00:47:36,655 --> 00:47:38,894
Marnie. It happens every other retreat. The last

1333
00:47:38,894 --> 00:47:40,574
day, they're like, hey. I don't wanna leave

1334
00:47:40,574 --> 00:47:42,175
with this on my chest. I wanna get

1335
00:47:42,175 --> 00:47:44,094
this off. And then they'll say it. And

1336
00:47:44,094 --> 00:47:46,015
I get why they were scared because it

1337
00:47:46,015 --> 00:47:47,635
it it definitely was,

1338
00:47:48,839 --> 00:47:51,480
on the abnormal scale, probably higher up on

1339
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,260
the abnormal scale. But, again,

1340
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,199
we know who that person is, and we

1341
00:47:56,199 --> 00:47:58,119
know that the fact that he's so scared

1342
00:47:58,119 --> 00:48:01,015
to tell us shows us that he really

1343
00:48:01,015 --> 00:48:02,775
regrets that this that this was part of

1344
00:48:02,775 --> 00:48:04,135
his recipe. And I I just wanted to

1345
00:48:04,135 --> 00:48:05,515
go on that little rant because

1346
00:48:05,894 --> 00:48:08,934
I, Marnie, did not get into good connection.

1347
00:48:08,934 --> 00:48:09,835
I went to meetings,

1348
00:48:10,295 --> 00:48:12,375
and I went to some breakfasts, and,

1349
00:48:12,695 --> 00:48:13,914
but I was not connecting

1350
00:48:14,260 --> 00:48:16,579
with these men. Right. And I was not

1351
00:48:16,579 --> 00:48:20,019
getting the benefit to my sobriety. Remember, connection

1352
00:48:20,019 --> 00:48:21,700
is not just being in the room with

1353
00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:23,320
them and sharing with return.

1354
00:48:23,860 --> 00:48:24,360
Connection

1355
00:48:24,820 --> 00:48:25,320
is

1356
00:48:25,700 --> 00:48:27,594
so much more than that. And Right. I

1357
00:48:27,594 --> 00:48:29,755
just wanna emphasize that, guys, if you don't

1358
00:48:29,755 --> 00:48:31,394
have that, you need it. It is just

1359
00:48:31,755 --> 00:48:34,394
nothing's worked more magic for my recovery and

1360
00:48:34,394 --> 00:48:35,375
long term recovery

1361
00:48:35,675 --> 00:48:37,434
than having a tribe of guys who just

1362
00:48:37,434 --> 00:48:38,735
really lean on through this.

1363
00:48:39,219 --> 00:48:39,719
Right.

1364
00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:43,380
I I I couldn't I couldn't agree more.

1365
00:48:43,380 --> 00:48:46,660
That's that's real real connection. All the rest

1366
00:48:46,660 --> 00:48:47,160
is

1367
00:48:47,619 --> 00:48:48,519
show and

1368
00:48:49,860 --> 00:48:51,619
bravado. Well, when you and and just to

1369
00:48:51,619 --> 00:48:53,059
give guys an explanation as to why it

1370
00:48:53,059 --> 00:48:55,815
doesn't work, it's because it's a show and

1371
00:48:55,815 --> 00:48:56,954
you know it's a show.

1372
00:48:57,735 --> 00:48:58,908
And they know it's a show. Now it's

1373
00:48:58,908 --> 00:49:00,695
a show. And everybody's in the show. Yep.

1374
00:49:00,695 --> 00:49:01,195
Is

1375
00:49:01,735 --> 00:49:03,094
well, even if you're able to fool them

1376
00:49:03,094 --> 00:49:04,534
because a lot of my clients are able

1377
00:49:04,534 --> 00:49:06,454
to fool people. And even if you are

1378
00:49:06,454 --> 00:49:07,335
able to fool them,

1379
00:49:08,054 --> 00:49:09,594
you know that they're in love

1380
00:49:10,029 --> 00:49:10,929
with the performance,

1381
00:49:11,389 --> 00:49:13,329
and you are carrying the belief

1382
00:49:13,949 --> 00:49:15,710
whether you know it or not. You're carrying

1383
00:49:15,710 --> 00:49:19,089
this simultaneous belief that, well, if I really

1384
00:49:19,230 --> 00:49:21,009
told them all of the vulnerability,

1385
00:49:21,789 --> 00:49:23,309
and and that's a hard one for us

1386
00:49:23,309 --> 00:49:25,054
to to grasp because a lot of these

1387
00:49:25,054 --> 00:49:26,494
guys have been hiding a lot of this

1388
00:49:26,494 --> 00:49:28,014
for so long that they've kind of forgot

1389
00:49:28,014 --> 00:49:29,074
that they're hiding it.

1390
00:49:29,534 --> 00:49:32,094
But again, you know, your psyche hasn't forgot

1391
00:49:32,094 --> 00:49:33,335
that you're hiding it. Right? And you'll pay

1392
00:49:33,335 --> 00:49:34,815
the consequences. Right. So,

1393
00:49:36,174 --> 00:49:36,674
Marnie,

1394
00:49:37,375 --> 00:49:39,315
one final thing to say to these,

1395
00:49:39,789 --> 00:49:40,289
guys

1396
00:49:40,670 --> 00:49:41,969
and gals listening.

1397
00:49:44,510 --> 00:49:46,829
Long term sobriety, you got you gotta say

1398
00:49:46,829 --> 00:49:48,269
one thing to them to,

1399
00:49:48,670 --> 00:49:49,569
to to

1400
00:49:50,269 --> 00:49:51,409
to flip a switch.

1401
00:49:51,949 --> 00:49:53,730
What would you say to somebody

1402
00:49:55,054 --> 00:49:56,755
who wants to be in sustainable

1403
00:49:57,694 --> 00:49:59,554
long term long term recovery?

1404
00:50:01,295 --> 00:50:03,054
To flip the switch. Gosh. That's a lot

1405
00:50:03,054 --> 00:50:03,714
of pressure.

1406
00:50:04,014 --> 00:50:06,174
I'm gonna sidestep that one. Sure. Let me

1407
00:50:06,174 --> 00:50:09,534
just say what what I've said before. There

1408
00:50:09,534 --> 00:50:12,610
is such beauty and joy and serenity

1409
00:50:13,789 --> 00:50:16,190
and success in the core of who you

1410
00:50:16,190 --> 00:50:16,690
are

1411
00:50:17,150 --> 00:50:19,090
to do this differently.

1412
00:50:20,030 --> 00:50:20,530
And

1413
00:50:20,829 --> 00:50:23,410
all of the success of the highly successful

1414
00:50:23,630 --> 00:50:25,010
people is actually

1415
00:50:25,934 --> 00:50:27,394
very often a detriment

1416
00:50:28,015 --> 00:50:29,954
to getting at this very

1417
00:50:31,614 --> 00:50:32,114
centered,

1418
00:50:34,015 --> 00:50:35,715
calm place of integrity.

1419
00:50:36,094 --> 00:50:38,755
And and you do need other people who

1420
00:50:39,055 --> 00:50:39,875
who understand

1421
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,440
the world the way you do and and

1422
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,119
the pressures and all of those kinds of

1423
00:50:45,119 --> 00:50:45,619
things.

1424
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:47,699
And when you can

1425
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,699
be really intimate and vulnerable with those folks,

1426
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,340
now you're getting somewhere. Yeah. Mhmm.

1427
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:55,380
And

1428
00:50:56,195 --> 00:50:58,275
and it's just so worth it. It is

1429
00:50:58,275 --> 00:51:01,394
just absolutely worth it. And Yeah. Me, all

1430
00:51:01,394 --> 00:51:03,954
of this is the spiritual journey. It's I

1431
00:51:03,954 --> 00:51:05,635
I like that. The way what what came

1432
00:51:05,635 --> 00:51:07,074
up from mine to me, and I I

1433
00:51:07,074 --> 00:51:08,355
had a different thing I was gonna say,

1434
00:51:08,355 --> 00:51:10,195
but I'm gonna change it to to piggyback

1435
00:51:10,195 --> 00:51:12,539
off that because I so agree. You know,

1436
00:51:12,539 --> 00:51:13,920
guys, if you were,

1437
00:51:14,460 --> 00:51:14,860
you know,

1438
00:51:15,420 --> 00:51:15,920
statistically,

1439
00:51:16,220 --> 00:51:18,160
both of you listening are still married,

1440
00:51:18,860 --> 00:51:21,420
you know, if your wife decided, nope, I'm

1441
00:51:21,420 --> 00:51:21,920
divorced,

1442
00:51:22,940 --> 00:51:25,180
would you keep doing what you're doing in

1443
00:51:25,180 --> 00:51:25,840
your recovery?

1444
00:51:26,445 --> 00:51:28,445
And, and really be honest with that, like,

1445
00:51:28,445 --> 00:51:31,085
what like like like, would you? And it's

1446
00:51:31,085 --> 00:51:33,724
been really interesting in our programs, we've we've

1447
00:51:33,724 --> 00:51:34,224
had,

1448
00:51:34,844 --> 00:51:36,684
I think in the history of me doing

1449
00:51:36,684 --> 00:51:38,625
this, I think we've had two divorces,

1450
00:51:40,260 --> 00:51:42,680
and it's been so cool to see

1451
00:51:43,140 --> 00:51:44,280
the guy leaning

1452
00:51:45,219 --> 00:51:46,760
in just as hard or harder

1453
00:51:47,059 --> 00:51:48,900
even though his marriage is gonna end. To

1454
00:51:48,900 --> 00:51:49,400
me

1455
00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:52,260
now, again, I'm not saying get what I'm

1456
00:51:52,260 --> 00:51:53,079
saying is

1457
00:51:53,460 --> 00:51:53,960
that

1458
00:51:54,605 --> 00:51:56,444
that's you know, if you're if you're wondering,

1459
00:51:56,444 --> 00:51:58,385
am I in good long term recovery?

1460
00:51:58,844 --> 00:52:00,764
I think that's kind of the measure is,

1461
00:52:00,764 --> 00:52:02,844
like, what's the motive? I mean, if if

1462
00:52:02,844 --> 00:52:04,684
the motive is, oh, I have to do

1463
00:52:04,684 --> 00:52:06,699
this for my wife or, oh, I'm just

1464
00:52:06,699 --> 00:52:09,019
doing this so that she or even even

1465
00:52:09,019 --> 00:52:10,539
if you're just doing it so that you

1466
00:52:10,539 --> 00:52:12,460
don't cheat on your wife again, is that

1467
00:52:12,460 --> 00:52:15,340
even sustainable long term recovery? Right? Like, you

1468
00:52:15,340 --> 00:52:15,840
know,

1469
00:52:16,619 --> 00:52:18,380
that you know, as you were talking, you

1470
00:52:18,380 --> 00:52:19,760
know, have you have you found

1471
00:52:20,784 --> 00:52:23,585
joy in a different way of being to

1472
00:52:23,585 --> 00:52:25,744
the point where whether you where you would

1473
00:52:25,744 --> 00:52:27,985
keep doing it, whether you were perfectly sober

1474
00:52:27,985 --> 00:52:29,744
forever or not? Even if I knew, hey,

1475
00:52:29,744 --> 00:52:31,744
I will never act out again. Would you

1476
00:52:31,744 --> 00:52:32,965
still lean into

1477
00:52:33,500 --> 00:52:35,739
kind of this connection with with yourself and

1478
00:52:35,739 --> 00:52:36,699
with others? Right?

1479
00:52:37,339 --> 00:52:38,780
That's I I love that you said that

1480
00:52:38,780 --> 00:52:40,380
because I do. That's to me, if you

1481
00:52:40,460 --> 00:52:42,299
if you're if you're gonna rely on your

1482
00:52:42,299 --> 00:52:42,799
recovery,

1483
00:52:43,579 --> 00:52:45,420
I like that. I think if you've really

1484
00:52:45,420 --> 00:52:47,659
fallen in love with your own humanity and

1485
00:52:47,659 --> 00:52:49,594
the humanity of others, I think it's gonna

1486
00:52:49,594 --> 00:52:52,074
be really hard to to dehumanize people and

1487
00:52:52,074 --> 00:52:53,994
objectify them. That's so well said. Thank you,

1488
00:52:53,994 --> 00:52:54,494
Marnie.

1489
00:52:55,914 --> 00:52:56,234
Well,

1490
00:52:56,795 --> 00:52:59,835
if people are trying to read about because

1491
00:52:59,835 --> 00:53:02,474
I know you're you're retired. I can't believe

1492
00:53:02,474 --> 00:53:03,454
it. I am retired.

1493
00:53:03,994 --> 00:53:06,650
I love it. People are going to absorb

1494
00:53:06,949 --> 00:53:09,050
any of the of of your,

1495
00:53:09,750 --> 00:53:11,829
work is what what options do we have

1496
00:53:11,829 --> 00:53:13,369
now that you're out of the game?

1497
00:53:15,030 --> 00:53:17,190
I'm still on the board and,

1498
00:53:17,510 --> 00:53:19,849
sharing my story with Bethesda workshops.

1499
00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:20,625
The,

1500
00:53:21,905 --> 00:53:22,405
clinical

1501
00:53:23,744 --> 00:53:26,545
program, also a ministry, a Christian based,

1502
00:53:27,025 --> 00:53:27,525
organization,

1503
00:53:28,465 --> 00:53:30,465
that I founded in 1997

1504
00:53:30,465 --> 00:53:33,125
and directed until 02/2024.

1505
00:53:34,079 --> 00:53:36,180
So Bethesda Workshops Dot Org,

1506
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,660
is a is a great place.

1507
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,840
You can Google me. I've I continue to

1508
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,980
blog through Bethesda workshops once a month. Just

1509
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:45,700
just

1510
00:53:46,085 --> 00:53:47,784
miscellaneous Marnie musings.

1511
00:53:48,565 --> 00:53:49,385
Just whatever's

1512
00:53:49,924 --> 00:53:52,585
I'm I'm thinking about, at the moment, the

1513
00:53:52,964 --> 00:53:55,924
the mockingbird that has built a nest in

1514
00:53:55,924 --> 00:53:56,824
my front porch.

1515
00:53:58,244 --> 00:54:00,484
I'm just, you know, just miscellaneous stuff and

1516
00:54:00,484 --> 00:54:00,984
different

1517
00:54:01,489 --> 00:54:04,289
observations or lessons or something that I Marnie.

1518
00:54:04,289 --> 00:54:05,909
I just I love that

1519
00:54:06,210 --> 00:54:07,889
it's just it's so cool to have a

1520
00:54:07,889 --> 00:54:11,010
guest with no other agenda other than to

1521
00:54:11,010 --> 00:54:11,510
just,

1522
00:54:12,609 --> 00:54:14,369
share your story and help others. It's just

1523
00:54:14,449 --> 00:54:15,829
it's so nice. I,

1524
00:54:17,125 --> 00:54:18,724
you know, I I you bring such a

1525
00:54:18,724 --> 00:54:21,364
cool energy, and I'm so excited to, see

1526
00:54:21,364 --> 00:54:23,465
you in person here in, two months.

1527
00:54:23,845 --> 00:54:26,085
Yeah. Conference in Nashville, Erin. I know. I

1528
00:54:26,085 --> 00:54:27,445
know. I'm excited. Well, thank you for your

1529
00:54:27,445 --> 00:54:29,525
time today, Marnie. Thank you. I'm so glad

1530
00:54:29,525 --> 00:54:30,505
to be with you.

1531
00:54:30,805 --> 00:54:32,880
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1532
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,719
are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1533
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:36,480
and you're looking for a recovery group full

1534
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,599
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1535
00:54:39,599 --> 00:54:42,400
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1536
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:43,699
using four day retreats,

1537
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,844
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1538
00:54:46,844 --> 00:54:49,005
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1539
00:54:49,005 --> 00:54:51,164
save your marriage, go to our website, fill

1540
00:54:51,164 --> 00:54:51,905
out our application.

1541
00:54:52,204 --> 00:54:54,684
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1542
00:54:54,684 --> 00:54:56,285
along to a friend in recovery who would

1543
00:54:56,285 --> 00:54:58,285
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1544
00:54:58,285 --> 00:54:59,996
get this information out to as many high

1545
00:54:59,996 --> 00:55:02,236
achievers as possible, and I can't do it

1546
00:55:02,236 --> 00:55:03,296
without your help.