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We're gonna return to the basics of betrayal,

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trauma, and relational healing. Now why do I

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say return to the basics? Well, because the

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truth is most guys have been through the

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basics, but they did it right after discovery.

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And if you guys all remember, that's the

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worst time to go through this information. You

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know, the world has been turned upside down.

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You're worried about your your wife. And if

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you're gonna stay married, you're worried about recovery.

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You're worried about sobriety. There's just so much

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on your mind during that time that you

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can't really digest

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the basics of what's actually gonna have to

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happen relationally to heal what you've done to

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your wife. I wanna revisit all of those

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concepts right here in this episode through the

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lens of somebody who's actually in advanced recovery.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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high achiever. I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder

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of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for

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high achieving men struggling with sex and porn

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addiction. For more information about joining our group

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or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Hello. Hello, everyone. We are gonna revisit the

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basics

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of betrayal trauma and

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the advanced standpoint. Right? So you've you've now

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learned the you've learned the ropes. You've learned,

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more about how this whole thing works. Now

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we're gonna kinda come back to the basics

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and, see what kind of repair still remains.

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You know? I think, you know, a lot

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of people get to this year too and

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but, we were not necessarily equipped in the

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beginning to repair this thing as well as

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we could. Maybe I'm projecting here, but I

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I I don't know. I see a lot

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of these guys, and I don't

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first off, I I think a great topic

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to start with would be the crisis phase

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and the basics, and I'd like to revisit

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it with kind of some of the knowledge

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that we have now that we've been in

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good recovery.

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Marilyn, you had you you started with

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something the the the kind of rudimentary

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process that we all go through. Right?

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Disclosure,

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going through the disclosure, then the impact letter,

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then the, emotional restitution

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letter. I'd like to kind of revisit all

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of that. Marilyn, where do you see it

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go wrong,

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and what can we do? Like, let's say

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we let's say we didn't honor that process

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with the level that we wish we honored

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it at. I I I, you know, I

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personally can say I didn't. I was way

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worry more worried about me than my wife

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when this first thing happened,

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then I I'm ashamed of that.

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So if we were to go back if

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somebody's already gone through that process, how how

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do we do it again, Marilyn? Can we

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do it again? What what how do we

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handle that?

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Yes. Great question.

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So the disclosure itself, you know, is done

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all kinds of ways. Sometimes it's a staggered

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disclosure. Sometimes it's non therapeutic.

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In the best of circumstances, it's done in

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a therapeutic way with therapists present with

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the recovering addict and also with the partner.

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And what happens what I'm sure everyone's familiar

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with is there's that relief

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post disclosure from the person in recovery because

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they've come clean, they've cleared up the deception.

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And then

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at the same time,

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the weight of all of this information

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and the pain and the emotional processing of

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it is

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now

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on the partner.

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So, you know, understandably,

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that creates a dynamic where they're in different

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places in their recovery

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because while the recurring addict has that relief,

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the partner has this emotional

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challenge of figuring out how to work through

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all of that.

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So there's a timing challenge there. And then

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the impact letter and what we see is

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a lot of people

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maybe go through an intensive, and so there

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there's an impact letter shared while they're in

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the intensive.

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And in many cases, even before

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there's a full disclosure

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that has happened. So

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for some people, that impact letter,

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if the partner wants to do that work

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of, you know, that hard emotional work of

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processing through that and putting that to paper

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or putting words to that is,

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is maybe done before

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the full disclosure process even happens. So it's

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important to kind of think about how that

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process has gone

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because that is gonna impact your ability to

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get the healing

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benefit

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from this whole process. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I

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I think you bring up a good point.

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You know, I my

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wife and I did not do it through,

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like, an intensive

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kind of compacted

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product, like,

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offering.

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We did it, you know, over time with

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with local therapists. And,

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I've always kinda found that a bit interesting

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too. I I I think the pros of

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doing it all in one is, you know,

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the reality is not everybody geographically

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has access to what they need, and I

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think that's really nice that they can fly,

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come here with a place that x that,

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you know, does these,

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you know, all the time. So they're they're

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they're very skilled. They know what to see.

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Typically, you're you're they're maintaining a lot of

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safety, a lot of space. So I think

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that's the pros. But I think, again, I

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think the the the drawback is exactly what

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you said. It's like,

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you know, we we lose a bit of

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it. You know, anytime we rush something or

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or or compact something and and, honor some

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kind of sequencing just because of the logistics,

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we might lose some of the impact. Right?

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And the and the goal of that letter

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and the goal of the restitution is is

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to heal. And so when it's being done

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in a high stakes, high stress environment,

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done quickly, you know, how well can you

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receive it? How well can you deliver it?

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And, again, I think I think I think

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that's the messiness of this whole thing is,

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how do we do this all right? Like

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I said, I look back and I'm thinking,

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gosh. Shoot. I think, you know, so many

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things.

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You know, one thing I'd like to share

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just because I think it's I'm my wife

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and I both feel very passionate about this.

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My wife rushed the disclosure. She wanted to

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know it now. She did not wanna wait

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the three or four months, which was what

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was,

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advised.

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And my wife will tell you, and she

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has told other women,

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wait three or four months. It's gonna be

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torture.

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But, here's what happened was I rushed it.

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I

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gave,

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I gave enough detail that I thought was

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adequate. My my therapist read it,

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but then there was, certain levels of detail

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that she actually wanted more of. She considered

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it deceptive.

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I to me, I, you know, I didn't

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consider it deceptive because it was like, oh,

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no. I mean, this is it. Right? But

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that's the problem is ask me four months

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later, I think my definition of deceptive would

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have changed, and I think I would have

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considered what I was doing deceptive. Right? I

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was you know, my mindset at the time

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was I'm trying to protect her.

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But now four months later, I'm realizing integrity

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isn't a bargaining

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chip. You either

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are in it or you're not or you're

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not in it. And that's what I think

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happens at three or four months as you

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start to really understand,

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the logistics and the heaviness of all of

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this.

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Jennifer, as I as I bring that up,

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what do you as you've seen some of

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this botched,

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what's what are what are your what do

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you guys do? So you screwed it up.

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Now what do we do? Do we go

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back? Do we start over? I mean, some

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of that's unrepairable, don't you think?

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Think? I I guess I'm delusionally optimistic as

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some of my clients say, and I think

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almost everything is repairable. So I like it.

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I like it. Otherwise, I'm not sure I

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would be doing this work. Right? I like

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it.

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So, yeah. Things can get botched. As a

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matter of fact, I spent two hours this

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morning,

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going through and doing a,

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a disclosure with a rabbi and his wife.

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And we just learned that, you know, she

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was pregnant. And so there were a lot

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of a lot of, moving parts,

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going through and and working to create the

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safety. And and sometimes I notice when people

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do do these disclosures,

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there's a lot of big emotions

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going on. And,

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so it's important to be there with somebody

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who, you know, is trained and understands the

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importance of creating the safety and security.

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Often what happens

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whether I'm doing, you know, whether I'm helping

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facilitate a disclosure

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or a,

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even

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discussion of a polygraph

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is I will get a call,

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or at the very beginning of the disclosure,

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I will hear from the person with the

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addiction, the person doing the disclosure

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that, oh, there's something I forgot to give

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you. I recently got one of these,

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in

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in, you know, the morning of the polygraph.

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He called me as he was, you know,

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flying in for the polygraph.

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And I said, well,

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I believe in radical honesty. I believe in

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rigorous honesty. I love the work of Anna

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Lempke out of Stanford and Dopamine Nation and

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and the importance of really building that, radical

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honesty.

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And it happened again this morning.

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You know, we had everything all printed up

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and ready to go, and and he read

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through the whole thing and he goes, I

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meant to ask. There's one thing that I

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failed to put in.

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And I said, okay. Well, I said, let

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let's do it right now. Let's let's talk

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about it right now and and creating that

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safety and security.

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So even when there has been something that's

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been botched up, I I would say go

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find somebody who

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is comfortable and understands the disclosure process, understands

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building, you know, kind of a shame resilient

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as much as possible,

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environment.

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And also that's willing to provide the safety

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and the security for the,

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betrayed partner who's

270
00:09:37,049 --> 00:09:38,350
very, you know,

271
00:09:38,730 --> 00:09:41,450
very nervous. Their world's already been kind of,

272
00:09:41,450 --> 00:09:43,865
you know, turned upside down hearing you talk

273
00:09:43,865 --> 00:09:45,784
about your wife and how she was pushing

274
00:09:45,784 --> 00:09:48,264
it. The same couple, you know, I was

275
00:09:48,264 --> 00:09:49,644
out of town last week.

276
00:09:50,024 --> 00:09:51,704
And the wife, when she heard of some

277
00:09:51,704 --> 00:09:53,544
hard things that we were going to have

278
00:09:53,544 --> 00:09:55,304
to bring up in the disclosure, well, at

279
00:09:55,304 --> 00:09:57,625
least her husband came home pretty pretty shook

280
00:09:57,625 --> 00:09:58,920
up a couple weeks ago.

281
00:09:59,620 --> 00:10:01,540
She said, can we do it earlier? And

282
00:10:01,540 --> 00:10:04,580
I said, no. We absolutely can't. I said,

283
00:10:04,580 --> 00:10:05,879
well, we

284
00:10:06,180 --> 00:10:08,100
I'm gonna be out of town first off,

285
00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:09,779
but we have to make sure that your

286
00:10:09,779 --> 00:10:11,480
husband is able to really,

287
00:10:11,964 --> 00:10:14,125
you know, build build this,

288
00:10:14,524 --> 00:10:16,524
so that he is cleaning out all the

289
00:10:16,524 --> 00:10:19,264
corners, all the cobwebs, getting everything done.

290
00:10:19,725 --> 00:10:22,205
And so, you know, having just somebody that

291
00:10:22,205 --> 00:10:24,625
can be that kind of voice of experience,

292
00:10:24,845 --> 00:10:28,410
voice of reason, professional who can help guide

293
00:10:28,410 --> 00:10:31,769
them and calm their nervous systems down. You

294
00:10:31,769 --> 00:10:33,870
know, these these betrayed partners,

295
00:10:34,330 --> 00:10:37,389
from discovery through disclosure and very often afterwards,

296
00:10:38,649 --> 00:10:39,790
their nervous systems

297
00:10:40,169 --> 00:10:42,410
are pretty black. You know, they're pretty freaked

298
00:10:42,410 --> 00:10:42,794
out.

299
00:10:43,274 --> 00:10:44,954
And so we have to try to move

300
00:10:44,954 --> 00:10:45,914
them into a,

301
00:10:46,475 --> 00:10:47,774
into a calmer,

302
00:10:48,075 --> 00:10:49,934
more socially engaged state.

303
00:10:50,954 --> 00:10:52,394
We do a lot of work with the

304
00:10:52,394 --> 00:10:53,615
polyvagal system,

305
00:10:54,235 --> 00:10:55,375
with Stephen Porges

306
00:10:56,690 --> 00:10:59,649
and Deb Dana where where we're working to

307
00:10:59,649 --> 00:11:02,529
help people get out of their sympathetic nervous

308
00:11:02,529 --> 00:11:03,750
system where they're

309
00:11:04,129 --> 00:11:06,129
so nervous and agitated. And we see a

310
00:11:06,129 --> 00:11:07,809
lot of that coming where they're in their

311
00:11:07,809 --> 00:11:10,894
fight or flight or where perhaps even before

312
00:11:10,894 --> 00:11:12,815
a disclosure where they're in their freeze and

313
00:11:12,815 --> 00:11:14,195
they haven't been able to,

314
00:11:14,735 --> 00:11:15,394
you know,

315
00:11:16,175 --> 00:11:18,415
stay in that place of social connection. And

316
00:11:18,415 --> 00:11:20,735
our goal is we're helping people whether it's,

317
00:11:21,055 --> 00:11:22,274
overcoming a botched,

318
00:11:23,220 --> 00:11:25,559
disclosure, and I've done plenty of those,

319
00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:28,759
with helping people overcome those botched disclosures.

320
00:11:30,019 --> 00:11:32,259
But we're helping people find that way to

321
00:11:32,259 --> 00:11:34,995
move back into their ventral bagel into social

322
00:11:34,995 --> 00:11:35,495
engagement

323
00:11:36,355 --> 00:11:39,075
part of of their nervous system so that

324
00:11:39,075 --> 00:11:41,575
they are able to stay more socially engaged.

325
00:11:42,035 --> 00:11:43,075
Mhmm. And I think this is a good

326
00:11:43,075 --> 00:11:44,915
opportunity to bring up the difference between a

327
00:11:44,915 --> 00:11:47,254
backyard disclosure and a therapeutic disclosure.

328
00:11:48,769 --> 00:11:50,450
The you know, Rob Wise in the end

329
00:11:50,450 --> 00:11:51,809
of his book, I think it's at the

330
00:11:51,809 --> 00:11:53,970
end, he talks about the importance of doing

331
00:11:53,970 --> 00:11:55,970
this therapeutically. And I want everybody to listen

332
00:11:55,970 --> 00:11:57,330
to this. For the guys who have not

333
00:11:57,490 --> 00:11:58,769
you know, maybe you know, there are people

334
00:11:58,769 --> 00:12:00,450
who listen to my podcast who have not

335
00:12:00,450 --> 00:12:03,029
yet told their wife about what they've done.

336
00:12:04,245 --> 00:12:05,605
You must do this.

337
00:12:06,164 --> 00:12:07,524
You I don't I don't think we have

338
00:12:07,524 --> 00:12:09,285
the numbers because we wouldn't be able to

339
00:12:09,285 --> 00:12:11,205
collect the data on this because we we

340
00:12:11,205 --> 00:12:12,965
usually don't see the people who do backyard

341
00:12:12,965 --> 00:12:16,245
disclosures. But, the likelihood of getting divorced and

342
00:12:16,245 --> 00:12:17,940
her not giving you a chance

343
00:12:18,259 --> 00:12:20,659
is through the roof. I mean, you you

344
00:12:20,659 --> 00:12:22,740
you just dropped the biggest bomb you can

345
00:12:22,740 --> 00:12:25,220
ever drop on her. Society has said that

346
00:12:25,220 --> 00:12:26,759
guys who do what you do

347
00:12:27,220 --> 00:12:28,820
are going to do it again. You don't

348
00:12:28,820 --> 00:12:31,059
deserve another chance. She's stupid to she's stupid

349
00:12:31,059 --> 00:12:31,799
to stay.

350
00:12:32,259 --> 00:12:34,595
Like, everything is counting against you. So do

351
00:12:34,595 --> 00:12:36,355
not do this in in your backyard. It

352
00:12:36,355 --> 00:12:37,254
is it is,

353
00:12:37,714 --> 00:12:40,115
you're not you you you're you're really putting

354
00:12:40,115 --> 00:12:42,115
your marriage at a at a massive risk

355
00:12:42,115 --> 00:12:43,954
that really could have been saved if you

356
00:12:43,954 --> 00:12:45,394
do it therapeutically. I mean, I'll I'll tell

357
00:12:45,394 --> 00:12:47,649
you guys all this. My wife is not

358
00:12:47,649 --> 00:12:49,330
the person that you do this to.

359
00:12:49,649 --> 00:12:52,129
She is, like, everything about how she is,

360
00:12:52,129 --> 00:12:54,049
like, this is just not what you do

361
00:12:54,049 --> 00:12:55,730
to her. So I I I really believe

362
00:12:55,730 --> 00:12:57,649
if I did a backyard disclosure, I I

363
00:12:57,649 --> 00:12:59,490
don't think I would have gotten any sort

364
00:12:59,490 --> 00:13:01,914
of opportunity to heal. Again, you know, the

365
00:13:01,914 --> 00:13:03,674
world does not say give this guy a

366
00:13:03,674 --> 00:13:05,355
shot. And the cool thing about a therapeutic

367
00:13:05,355 --> 00:13:06,954
disclosure, just to kinda close the door on

368
00:13:06,954 --> 00:13:07,694
this, is

369
00:13:08,315 --> 00:13:10,794
when you guys craft this document, it's crafted

370
00:13:10,794 --> 00:13:13,049
very carefully so that it is it's not

371
00:13:13,129 --> 00:13:15,529
fluff. There's no spinning it one way for

372
00:13:15,529 --> 00:13:16,909
convenience. There's no

373
00:13:17,370 --> 00:13:20,089
hiding, specific it's it's done out there. It's

374
00:13:20,089 --> 00:13:22,330
done right. Her therapist is there. Your therapist

375
00:13:22,330 --> 00:13:24,649
is there. Your couple's therapist is there. You

376
00:13:24,649 --> 00:13:25,209
know, there's this

377
00:13:26,384 --> 00:13:28,945
it looks like you are sick, and that's

378
00:13:28,945 --> 00:13:31,425
to your advantage because you are sick. And

379
00:13:31,425 --> 00:13:32,705
she needs to see it that way. And

380
00:13:32,705 --> 00:13:34,065
when you just drop it on her in

381
00:13:34,065 --> 00:13:36,144
the in the in in the living room

382
00:13:36,144 --> 00:13:36,804
one night,

383
00:13:37,585 --> 00:13:39,024
you don't look sick. You look like a

384
00:13:39,024 --> 00:13:40,705
guy who just wanted to have a bunch

385
00:13:40,705 --> 00:13:42,449
of extramarital sex, and it's just it's it's

386
00:13:42,449 --> 00:13:44,470
a little bit of a harder thing to

387
00:13:44,689 --> 00:13:47,110
to swallow. Whereas when it's delivered therapeutically,

388
00:13:47,569 --> 00:13:49,329
it's like, hey. Listen. I have a problem.

389
00:13:49,329 --> 00:13:50,709
He's you have three professionals

390
00:13:51,250 --> 00:13:53,009
who all agree that I have a problem.

391
00:13:53,009 --> 00:13:54,610
They've helped me graph this document so that

392
00:13:54,610 --> 00:13:56,209
I can so I could explain to you

393
00:13:56,209 --> 00:13:58,434
the the breadth of my problem and how

394
00:13:58,434 --> 00:13:59,794
it came about and that this was going

395
00:13:59,794 --> 00:14:01,975
on well before I met you. And,

396
00:14:02,595 --> 00:14:04,434
it just really tees you guys up to

397
00:14:04,434 --> 00:14:06,355
at least give it a shot. So I

398
00:14:06,355 --> 00:14:07,955
just I just you know, anytime that comes

399
00:14:07,955 --> 00:14:09,554
up, I oh, I probably mentioned this in

400
00:14:09,554 --> 00:14:11,955
a bajillion podcast episodes, but I just I

401
00:14:11,955 --> 00:14:13,259
can't reiterate it enough.

402
00:14:14,460 --> 00:14:17,040
Relying on professionals with this, please. It's just,

403
00:14:17,419 --> 00:14:19,100
if you want to if you have any

404
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:20,860
desire to save your marriage, this needs to

405
00:14:20,860 --> 00:14:22,700
be done correctly and it needs to have

406
00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:24,879
a facilitator. There's just there's too many emotional

407
00:14:24,940 --> 00:14:26,240
charges on both sides.

408
00:14:27,259 --> 00:14:28,559
Guys, you're gonna lie.

409
00:14:29,115 --> 00:14:31,115
You're gonna lie. You're gonna lie so fast.

410
00:14:31,115 --> 00:14:32,794
You need to know that. You need to

411
00:14:32,794 --> 00:14:34,235
protect her from your,

412
00:14:34,794 --> 00:14:36,634
lying habits. And and that's the reason we

413
00:14:36,634 --> 00:14:37,915
do it all this way is it just

414
00:14:37,915 --> 00:14:39,674
kinda mitigates all of that to set you

415
00:14:39,674 --> 00:14:41,514
guys up for the best, the the the

416
00:14:41,514 --> 00:14:42,575
best chance possible.

417
00:14:43,370 --> 00:14:45,149
So let's migrate over to,

418
00:14:46,169 --> 00:14:47,389
after this. So,

419
00:14:48,169 --> 00:14:49,949
we do this whole crisis

420
00:14:50,490 --> 00:14:50,990
process.

421
00:14:52,490 --> 00:14:54,329
One of two things gonna happen. Either she's

422
00:14:54,329 --> 00:14:56,089
gonna lose it or what I actually see

423
00:14:56,089 --> 00:14:57,850
happen quite often is there's this, like, little

424
00:14:57,850 --> 00:15:00,315
shock phase where, like, things are surprisingly

425
00:15:01,254 --> 00:15:03,254
not that bad for a month or two.

426
00:15:03,254 --> 00:15:04,634
This is how it went for us.

427
00:15:05,095 --> 00:15:07,575
And then things got really bad, and I'm

428
00:15:07,575 --> 00:15:08,075
talking

429
00:15:08,534 --> 00:15:11,514
bad. Just the emotional wrath of,

430
00:15:12,169 --> 00:15:14,889
you know, real reality really set into her

431
00:15:14,889 --> 00:15:16,429
of, like, oh my gosh.

432
00:15:17,209 --> 00:15:19,209
He did a just because we did a

433
00:15:19,209 --> 00:15:21,709
polygraph, a disclosure, and this letter,

434
00:15:22,329 --> 00:15:24,990
I'm not over it at all. If anything,

435
00:15:25,049 --> 00:15:26,730
I'm further from over it. And so I

436
00:15:26,730 --> 00:15:29,154
think that reality sets in of I hate

437
00:15:29,154 --> 00:15:30,054
my new reality.

438
00:15:30,434 --> 00:15:32,835
I hate Monday. I hate Tuesday. I hate

439
00:15:32,835 --> 00:15:35,394
Wednesday. I hate Thursday. I hate being at

440
00:15:35,394 --> 00:15:37,335
your parents' house. I hate being here.

441
00:15:37,714 --> 00:15:39,714
I hate I get triggered by any woman

442
00:15:39,714 --> 00:15:41,700
who walks by. And, you know, it's just

443
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:43,299
such a frustrating world for them to live

444
00:15:43,299 --> 00:15:43,959
in. So

445
00:15:44,339 --> 00:15:47,059
this whole wrath is coming out, and,

446
00:15:47,620 --> 00:15:49,620
I think we should talk about how to

447
00:15:49,620 --> 00:15:52,519
handle that because it does not go away,

448
00:15:53,475 --> 00:15:55,715
very quickly. It's not uncommon for this to

449
00:15:55,715 --> 00:15:57,174
kinda to hang around for,

450
00:15:57,794 --> 00:16:00,674
two years with, you know, some change, but,

451
00:16:01,075 --> 00:16:02,995
you know, not as much change as I

452
00:16:02,995 --> 00:16:05,154
think most couples would like to see. So

453
00:16:05,154 --> 00:16:06,674
let's talk a little bit about how we

454
00:16:06,674 --> 00:16:07,495
handle that.

455
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,279
Obviously, a lot of my the people listening

456
00:16:10,279 --> 00:16:12,679
are are somewhat experienced with this, so I'd

457
00:16:12,679 --> 00:16:14,120
like to kinda talk a little bit of

458
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,199
a higher level. Right? So you've made it

459
00:16:16,199 --> 00:16:18,199
through. You've read their the helper heal books.

460
00:16:18,199 --> 00:16:19,959
You've you know, you're kind of tooling up

461
00:16:19,959 --> 00:16:21,419
your empathy tool bag.

462
00:16:21,995 --> 00:16:23,914
But, again, that you know, maybe, again, I'm

463
00:16:23,914 --> 00:16:25,754
projecting here, but I ran out of tools

464
00:16:25,754 --> 00:16:27,754
in my empathy tool bag pretty darn quick.

465
00:16:27,754 --> 00:16:29,034
You know? So here I am at seven

466
00:16:29,034 --> 00:16:30,715
months, and it's like, crap. I tried that

467
00:16:30,715 --> 00:16:32,715
one. I tried this one. I used this

468
00:16:32,715 --> 00:16:33,934
one three times yesterday.

469
00:16:34,529 --> 00:16:37,110
Now I'm like, I'm having an emotional response

470
00:16:37,250 --> 00:16:39,169
because I'm I don't know how to keep

471
00:16:39,169 --> 00:16:41,169
doing this day after day after day after

472
00:16:41,169 --> 00:16:42,850
day. Can you speak to a little bit

473
00:16:42,850 --> 00:16:45,089
of that fatigue? Because I think the mind,

474
00:16:45,089 --> 00:16:47,730
at least my mind, was saying this isn't

475
00:16:47,730 --> 00:16:48,225
working.

476
00:16:48,784 --> 00:16:50,944
And, in hindsight, I can tell you it

477
00:16:50,944 --> 00:16:53,504
was working. But, again, in that moment, you

478
00:16:53,504 --> 00:16:56,625
start to stop believing that empathy is gonna

479
00:16:56,625 --> 00:16:58,225
do enough or that you can do it

480
00:16:58,225 --> 00:16:58,704
right.

481
00:16:59,184 --> 00:17:00,464
What would you say to guys who are

482
00:17:00,464 --> 00:17:01,764
in that phase of,

483
00:17:02,860 --> 00:17:05,579
Jennifer, Marilyn, help me. Like like, I this

484
00:17:05,579 --> 00:17:07,019
isn't working. You guys told me to go

485
00:17:07,019 --> 00:17:08,700
say these things to her, and it's not

486
00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:10,380
making a difference. What do you say to

487
00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:11,819
that guy to encourage him to hang in

488
00:17:11,819 --> 00:17:13,599
there? And what else can he try?

489
00:17:16,085 --> 00:17:18,484
Well, I would say that this piece around

490
00:17:18,484 --> 00:17:19,464
shared experience

491
00:17:19,845 --> 00:17:22,025
of she has been alone

492
00:17:22,964 --> 00:17:24,025
in her feelings.

493
00:17:24,644 --> 00:17:26,265
And when there's that,

494
00:17:26,565 --> 00:17:29,065
you know, acknowledgment, validation, and reassurance,

495
00:17:30,029 --> 00:17:32,110
there, which is the AVR that we talk

496
00:17:32,110 --> 00:17:32,610
about,

497
00:17:33,070 --> 00:17:36,590
has that included, like, emotionally dropping in, like,

498
00:17:36,590 --> 00:17:39,470
allowing yourself to feel? Right? Connecting to your

499
00:17:39,470 --> 00:17:41,549
own feelings that you can there connect to

500
00:17:41,549 --> 00:17:44,190
hers because she is still gonna feel unseen

501
00:17:44,190 --> 00:17:44,930
and unheard

502
00:17:45,304 --> 00:17:47,085
if there hasn't been that

503
00:17:47,384 --> 00:17:49,804
emotional shared experience where you're

504
00:17:50,265 --> 00:17:52,345
you're sharing that from the best of your

505
00:17:52,345 --> 00:17:52,845
ability.

506
00:17:53,304 --> 00:17:55,304
You're not her, but from for the best

507
00:17:55,304 --> 00:17:57,644
of your ability to kinda drop in and

508
00:17:57,944 --> 00:18:01,085
meet her emotionally where she is. And just

509
00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,200
fast is slow and slow is fast. Like,

510
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:03,859
you wanna

511
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,000
she's been sitting in it. You're gonna need

512
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,099
to sit there for a little bit. Right?

513
00:18:08,399 --> 00:18:09,539
It's gonna take

514
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,839
some time sitting in. And I would say

515
00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:14,500
the other piece that I think gets missed

516
00:18:14,639 --> 00:18:15,299
a lot

517
00:18:15,919 --> 00:18:16,419
is

518
00:18:17,144 --> 00:18:20,045
the best trust building tool that you have

519
00:18:20,585 --> 00:18:21,404
is to

520
00:18:22,025 --> 00:18:22,904
100%

521
00:18:22,904 --> 00:18:23,884
keep your commitments.

522
00:18:24,585 --> 00:18:26,984
So if there is any commitment, you know,

523
00:18:26,984 --> 00:18:28,505
you were going to stop up at the

524
00:18:28,505 --> 00:18:30,105
store on your way home and you just

525
00:18:30,105 --> 00:18:31,164
forgot, like

526
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:32,650
communication

527
00:18:33,029 --> 00:18:35,210
around those commitments and that acknowledgment

528
00:18:35,509 --> 00:18:37,609
of where you've fallen short,

529
00:18:38,309 --> 00:18:41,029
like, you can like, she can't allow that

530
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:41,929
trust to rebuild.

531
00:18:42,230 --> 00:18:44,230
It's just gonna she's gonna be constantly triggered

532
00:18:44,230 --> 00:18:46,009
over and over and over. Right?

533
00:18:46,515 --> 00:18:47,815
Over just something

534
00:18:48,755 --> 00:18:50,615
insignificant, but it's gonna trigger

535
00:18:50,914 --> 00:18:52,755
all of these other times, all of these

536
00:18:52,755 --> 00:18:54,695
deeper injuries and these deeper wounds.

537
00:18:55,075 --> 00:18:57,634
So those are a couple of, like, watch

538
00:18:57,634 --> 00:18:58,829
outs. Right?

539
00:18:59,789 --> 00:19:01,309
I'd like you to speak before I have

540
00:19:01,309 --> 00:19:03,710
Jennifer kinda add hers, I'd like you to

541
00:19:03,710 --> 00:19:04,210
define,

542
00:19:06,349 --> 00:19:07,730
sitting with it.

543
00:19:08,589 --> 00:19:09,089
You

544
00:19:09,390 --> 00:19:11,409
people I'm gonna say it like that.

545
00:19:11,845 --> 00:19:14,565
You people tell us that all the time,

546
00:19:14,565 --> 00:19:16,965
and I hated that because I'm like, what

547
00:19:16,965 --> 00:19:18,644
the flip do you mean sitting with it?

548
00:19:18,644 --> 00:19:20,565
Because here's the thing. What I thought was

549
00:19:20,565 --> 00:19:21,924
sitting with it, then she looks over and

550
00:19:21,924 --> 00:19:24,164
she's like, aren't you gonna say something? Don't

551
00:19:24,164 --> 00:19:25,365
you you know? So I'm like, oh, I

552
00:19:25,365 --> 00:19:26,789
don't know. I'm trying to sit with it.

553
00:19:26,789 --> 00:19:28,789
Right? And now I'm getting, like, attacked for

554
00:19:28,789 --> 00:19:29,289
not,

555
00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:31,750
you know, I'm I'm just I'm just sitting

556
00:19:31,750 --> 00:19:34,309
over there terrified, and I'm being accused of

557
00:19:34,309 --> 00:19:36,309
not caring, which is so far from the

558
00:19:36,309 --> 00:19:37,769
truth. I care incredibly.

559
00:19:38,150 --> 00:19:40,464
So but now that I'm being attacked for

560
00:19:40,464 --> 00:19:42,545
not caring, now I'm extra now I'm extra

561
00:19:42,545 --> 00:19:45,265
frazzled. Marilyn, how do you define sitting with

562
00:19:45,265 --> 00:19:45,765
it?

563
00:19:46,144 --> 00:19:48,144
Well, I'm gonna do a very therapist thing

564
00:19:48,144 --> 00:19:50,144
right now and say, like, at that moment

565
00:19:50,144 --> 00:19:51,684
where you're sitting with it

566
00:19:52,450 --> 00:19:54,610
silently, what what are you feeling in your

567
00:19:54,610 --> 00:19:55,110
body?

568
00:19:55,809 --> 00:19:56,549
Are you

569
00:19:57,410 --> 00:19:59,430
feeling it? Is there actual,

570
00:20:01,809 --> 00:20:02,309
physiological

571
00:20:02,690 --> 00:20:05,029
responses to that that you can identify

572
00:20:05,410 --> 00:20:06,150
and notice

573
00:20:06,794 --> 00:20:09,914
and realize that, okay, I am having a

574
00:20:09,914 --> 00:20:13,034
real meaningful experience here as I connect to

575
00:20:13,034 --> 00:20:15,034
you and what you're going through. And and

576
00:20:15,034 --> 00:20:16,654
I want to share something that happens

577
00:20:17,115 --> 00:20:19,914
a lot on the impact letter. When she's

578
00:20:19,914 --> 00:20:21,534
written that impact letter

579
00:20:22,029 --> 00:20:24,269
and they read it and they often, you

580
00:20:24,269 --> 00:20:27,170
know, I encourage my couples and and my

581
00:20:27,390 --> 00:20:29,809
guys in recovery to write that emotional restitution

582
00:20:30,029 --> 00:20:32,670
letter, and sometimes they will write it and

583
00:20:32,670 --> 00:20:35,805
they miss the most significant parts of what

584
00:20:35,805 --> 00:20:36,865
she put in there.

585
00:20:37,164 --> 00:20:39,005
And so, you know, in their mind, maybe

586
00:20:39,005 --> 00:20:40,845
they thought the most significant part would have

587
00:20:40,845 --> 00:20:41,345
been,

588
00:20:41,724 --> 00:20:42,384
you know,

589
00:20:42,684 --> 00:20:45,164
the number of partners they were with or

590
00:20:45,164 --> 00:20:47,849
something to that extent. And what she's thinking

591
00:20:47,849 --> 00:20:48,910
about is

592
00:20:49,529 --> 00:20:50,829
when she was in the hospital,

593
00:20:51,690 --> 00:20:54,170
and where were you at that moment? You

594
00:20:54,170 --> 00:20:56,430
know, when she was at her most vulnerable,

595
00:20:56,570 --> 00:20:59,289
these really important, meaningful or vulnerable times. And

596
00:20:59,289 --> 00:21:00,589
so in

597
00:21:01,355 --> 00:21:04,315
in having that empathy and practicing, like, sitting

598
00:21:04,315 --> 00:21:05,914
in it and meeting with her, it takes,

599
00:21:05,914 --> 00:21:06,654
like, really

600
00:21:07,355 --> 00:21:08,734
reflecting and examining,

601
00:21:09,275 --> 00:21:10,734
like, what was the emotional

602
00:21:11,195 --> 00:21:11,695
impact

603
00:21:12,315 --> 00:21:14,894
and why was that so emotionally impactful?

604
00:21:15,369 --> 00:21:17,549
And then doing your best to convey

605
00:21:17,929 --> 00:21:19,390
how you feel about

606
00:21:20,089 --> 00:21:20,990
being the one

607
00:21:22,089 --> 00:21:24,329
Mhmm. The complimentary. Right? Yeah. And I I

608
00:21:24,329 --> 00:21:26,409
think so here's how I dealt with it

609
00:21:26,409 --> 00:21:29,345
because here's what happens is she'll express that,

610
00:21:29,805 --> 00:21:32,545
and almost instantly, I go into an emotion

611
00:21:32,684 --> 00:21:35,505
that that is about me and my life

612
00:21:35,644 --> 00:21:38,144
and how I'm now seen by my wife.

613
00:21:38,204 --> 00:21:39,585
But I'm gonna tell you guys,

614
00:21:39,884 --> 00:21:40,349
I

615
00:21:40,829 --> 00:21:43,789
I that's not uncommon, and, actually, that has

616
00:21:43,789 --> 00:21:45,869
satisfied. I it has not brought my wife

617
00:21:45,869 --> 00:21:48,130
peace. I want everyone to understand the difference.

618
00:21:48,589 --> 00:21:50,109
Just when you do this, it does not

619
00:21:50,109 --> 00:21:52,029
mean it's gonna make it better for her.

620
00:21:52,029 --> 00:21:53,710
She's gonna hug you, forgive you. Just I

621
00:21:53,710 --> 00:21:54,990
I think we all I think guys also

622
00:21:54,990 --> 00:21:56,865
need to understand too. Expressing

623
00:21:57,484 --> 00:22:00,125
empathy is I I think this is a

624
00:22:00,125 --> 00:22:02,845
misunderstanding that it's gonna make things better. That

625
00:22:02,845 --> 00:22:04,944
is that is that is not the promise.

626
00:22:05,005 --> 00:22:07,724
It is, it is just an it's it's

627
00:22:07,724 --> 00:22:09,404
the only thing you can really do in

628
00:22:09,404 --> 00:22:11,164
that moment. That's the rest of the reason

629
00:22:11,164 --> 00:22:12,180
we tell you to do it is you

630
00:22:12,259 --> 00:22:14,340
really don't have any other option besides to

631
00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:16,340
show some empathy, but also don't expect it

632
00:22:16,340 --> 00:22:18,340
to do whatever it is you're expecting it

633
00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:19,460
to do. And I think that was one

634
00:22:19,460 --> 00:22:21,140
thing I had to learn the hard way

635
00:22:21,140 --> 00:22:23,460
as I was like, you know, that must

636
00:22:23,460 --> 00:22:25,220
be hard for you when you blah blah

637
00:22:25,220 --> 00:22:26,835
blah. You know, I expected her to, like,

638
00:22:26,914 --> 00:22:28,595
kiss me or something. I don't know what

639
00:22:28,595 --> 00:22:30,595
I expected, but that's not how it works.

640
00:22:30,595 --> 00:22:30,994
So,

641
00:22:31,394 --> 00:22:33,394
what I've done and and, yeah, and, Marilyn,

642
00:22:33,394 --> 00:22:34,515
I'll let you speak to this just to

643
00:22:34,515 --> 00:22:36,434
make sure, I'm understanding it right or you

644
00:22:36,434 --> 00:22:37,714
can explain it to the audience a bit

645
00:22:37,714 --> 00:22:38,214
better.

646
00:22:39,234 --> 00:22:41,075
What one of my therapists told me to

647
00:22:41,075 --> 00:22:41,815
do was

648
00:22:42,390 --> 00:22:44,150
I explained to them, hey. When she does

649
00:22:44,150 --> 00:22:45,750
this and she says this, I explained to

650
00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:47,349
them what was what goes on in me

651
00:22:47,349 --> 00:22:48,789
and what goes on in my head. And

652
00:22:48,789 --> 00:22:51,130
she goes, yep. Say that. And I'm like,

653
00:22:51,190 --> 00:22:52,950
what do you mean? That's that's not empathy.

654
00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:54,390
Empathy is supposed to be that must be

655
00:22:54,390 --> 00:22:55,670
hard for you. You know, it's supposed to

656
00:22:55,670 --> 00:22:57,269
be one of these 12 statements that I

657
00:22:57,269 --> 00:22:58,994
did on my workbook. And she goes, no.

658
00:22:58,994 --> 00:23:01,394
No. No. When she said that and it's

659
00:23:01,394 --> 00:23:03,575
making an emotional response in you

660
00:23:04,035 --> 00:23:06,215
because of what she said, that that is

661
00:23:06,355 --> 00:23:06,855
empathy.

662
00:23:07,235 --> 00:23:09,154
And so it so, guys, how that works

663
00:23:09,154 --> 00:23:10,535
is my wife will say, hey,

664
00:23:11,075 --> 00:23:12,434
that, I can't get it out of my

665
00:23:12,434 --> 00:23:15,289
head. That one time I straightly, blatantly asked

666
00:23:15,289 --> 00:23:17,769
you to your face, and you looked at

667
00:23:17,769 --> 00:23:20,170
me and lied. And not only that, you

668
00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:22,830
came up with an elaborate excuse as to

669
00:23:22,890 --> 00:23:24,809
how what I'm saying could have never been

670
00:23:24,809 --> 00:23:26,970
true when it was true. And she's saying

671
00:23:26,970 --> 00:23:28,954
that to me, and I am just I

672
00:23:28,954 --> 00:23:31,434
feel like the lowest of lowest of lows.

673
00:23:31,434 --> 00:23:33,195
I mean, I not only do I lie

674
00:23:33,195 --> 00:23:35,275
to her, but I truly manipulated her, and

675
00:23:35,275 --> 00:23:36,974
I got away with it at the time.

676
00:23:37,035 --> 00:23:38,954
Right? And so I'm reflecting back on what

677
00:23:38,954 --> 00:23:40,555
I did, and I I I feel like

678
00:23:40,555 --> 00:23:41,914
the scum of the earth. Like, how how

679
00:23:41,914 --> 00:23:42,940
could I have done that to to her,

680
00:23:42,940 --> 00:23:44,299
and how am I ever gonna regain her

681
00:23:44,299 --> 00:23:46,140
trust? And so I sit there, and I

682
00:23:46,220 --> 00:23:48,940
I'm I'm quite sad. I'm defeated. I'm I'm

683
00:23:48,940 --> 00:23:50,080
just as as,

684
00:23:50,539 --> 00:23:52,940
ashamed of myself as as she's trying to

685
00:23:52,940 --> 00:23:54,460
explain. You know, I I can't believe it

686
00:23:54,460 --> 00:23:56,619
either. But, guys, that's what you say. You

687
00:23:56,619 --> 00:23:58,634
say, hey. When you tell me that, I

688
00:23:58,634 --> 00:24:00,715
I can't even believe that I was that

689
00:24:00,715 --> 00:24:02,315
kind of a husband. And I'm just I'm

690
00:24:02,315 --> 00:24:03,994
sitting here, and to be honest with you,

691
00:24:03,994 --> 00:24:05,434
I I don't know what to say. I

692
00:24:05,434 --> 00:24:06,795
don't know why I thought that it was

693
00:24:06,795 --> 00:24:09,035
okay. And the fact that I did it

694
00:24:09,035 --> 00:24:11,195
makes me I feel very unworthy right now.

695
00:24:11,195 --> 00:24:12,795
I I I feel unworthy to be anyone's

696
00:24:12,795 --> 00:24:15,289
husband. And so, frankly, I just I don't

697
00:24:15,289 --> 00:24:17,289
know what how to respond because I'm I'm

698
00:24:17,289 --> 00:24:19,690
I'm just feeling very ashamed of myself. Guys,

699
00:24:19,690 --> 00:24:22,090
that's empathy. Now, again, it would be way

700
00:24:22,090 --> 00:24:24,430
better if you could relate to her experience,

701
00:24:24,809 --> 00:24:26,664
but I'm just gonna be real. That's hard

702
00:24:26,664 --> 00:24:28,265
to do. I'm I'm I'm gonna be honest

703
00:24:28,265 --> 00:24:29,705
with you guys. I'm not there yet. I

704
00:24:29,705 --> 00:24:31,705
don't know. I'm a wounded little beat up

705
00:24:31,705 --> 00:24:32,985
boy, and I don't know if I'm ever

706
00:24:32,985 --> 00:24:35,065
gonna grow up. And so it's hard for

707
00:24:35,065 --> 00:24:37,669
me to have that really adult present response.

708
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:39,910
And, I also wanna kind of empathize. I

709
00:24:39,910 --> 00:24:41,690
think it's even harder when it's your wife.

710
00:24:41,910 --> 00:24:42,950
I I and I think that's a I

711
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:44,710
think that's, like, level 20 empathy, and I

712
00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:46,309
don't know if us guys are gonna get

713
00:24:46,309 --> 00:24:48,230
to level 20. You know? But I think

714
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:50,085
we should try. So that's the one thing

715
00:24:50,085 --> 00:24:52,164
is don't don't give up. Keep trying to

716
00:24:52,164 --> 00:24:53,365
see if you can get there and stop

717
00:24:53,365 --> 00:24:55,125
making it about you and getting it to

718
00:24:55,125 --> 00:24:57,444
about her. But, again, don't be surprised if

719
00:24:57,444 --> 00:24:59,125
that's gonna take you a decade or two.

720
00:24:59,125 --> 00:25:00,484
I mean, that's just that's that's a very

721
00:25:00,484 --> 00:25:02,484
difficult skill to task, especially when it's the

722
00:25:02,484 --> 00:25:04,164
person that you love the most and you

723
00:25:04,164 --> 00:25:05,929
acted that far out of character.

724
00:25:06,389 --> 00:25:07,909
Right? I mean, what she's saying about you,

725
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:10,230
like, you hope nobody you hope nobody finds

726
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:12,470
out about that moment in time because it's

727
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:14,470
just so shameful. I mean, gosh. Would my

728
00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:16,149
friends even wanna be friends with me anymore?

729
00:25:16,149 --> 00:25:18,654
Right? So as I say that, Marilyn, am

730
00:25:18,654 --> 00:25:20,755
I saying this accurately? Is that enough?

731
00:25:21,615 --> 00:25:23,455
What what did you hear there, and and

732
00:25:23,455 --> 00:25:25,375
how can guys do what I just said?

733
00:25:25,375 --> 00:25:27,455
But, tell them tell them how to do

734
00:25:27,455 --> 00:25:28,975
it better because I bet I'm just bad

735
00:25:28,975 --> 00:25:30,494
at empathy. I'm gonna be real with y'all.

736
00:25:30,494 --> 00:25:31,720
I don't There's a reason I don't have

737
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:32,679
an empathy podcast,

738
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:33,500
because,

739
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,400
you know, I'm not the go to guy

740
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:36,059
for that.

741
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:38,859
That is precisely

742
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,039
the thing to do because if when you're

743
00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:43,419
honest and you're vulnerable

744
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,259
and you're showing up authentically,

745
00:25:46,544 --> 00:25:47,845
then there's connection.

746
00:25:48,224 --> 00:25:50,784
Right? And I think what we forget a

747
00:25:50,784 --> 00:25:52,865
lot of times, connection doesn't just happen in

748
00:25:52,865 --> 00:25:53,764
the good times.

749
00:25:54,065 --> 00:25:57,024
Connection happens in the trenches. Connect connection happens

750
00:25:57,024 --> 00:26:00,565
in pain. Yeah. True. So so when you

751
00:26:00,625 --> 00:26:01,125
are

752
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,759
sharing your own painful response to that or

753
00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:05,980
you're sharing your own,

754
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,980
reaction to seeing her where she is,

755
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:11,740
then you can connect

756
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,000
by being open and vulnerable and willing to

757
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,164
say the hard things. Yeah. I like that.

758
00:26:17,164 --> 00:26:19,005
And and anything, guys, too, it's a you

759
00:26:19,005 --> 00:26:20,785
know, the thing that I've learned through this

760
00:26:20,845 --> 00:26:21,664
is how,

761
00:26:22,444 --> 00:26:24,204
how much how many issues I still have.

762
00:26:24,204 --> 00:26:26,045
I mean, the fact that she can't express

763
00:26:26,045 --> 00:26:28,285
her pain without me making it about me,

764
00:26:28,285 --> 00:26:30,839
to this day, mind you, shows you how

765
00:26:30,839 --> 00:26:33,160
concerned I am with being judged, with my

766
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,240
image. Right? It just shows you how fragile

767
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,079
my sense of self is. Right? And so

768
00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:38,359
I think I think that that's why I've

769
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,279
learned to love that. And, again, guys, what

770
00:26:40,279 --> 00:26:41,720
I just said there, what if you said

771
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,505
that to your wife? Hey. I I I'm

772
00:26:43,505 --> 00:26:45,505
having a hard time not making this about

773
00:26:45,505 --> 00:26:47,505
me, and and it just shows me how

774
00:26:47,505 --> 00:26:50,384
how how how insecure I am and how,

775
00:26:50,384 --> 00:26:53,345
like, your comments just you know, I can't

776
00:26:53,345 --> 00:26:54,865
even be with your pain for even a

777
00:26:54,865 --> 00:26:56,660
second without making it about me. Guys, maybe

778
00:26:56,660 --> 00:26:58,099
that's where you're at, and that's what she

779
00:26:58,099 --> 00:26:59,380
wants to hear. Because here's the thing. What

780
00:26:59,380 --> 00:27:00,820
are you gonna do? Fool her? Fool her

781
00:27:00,820 --> 00:27:03,059
with some sort of magical empathy statement from

782
00:27:03,059 --> 00:27:05,140
your workbook? No. She's gonna feel that you're

783
00:27:05,140 --> 00:27:06,740
making it about you whether you say it

784
00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:08,865
or not. So to me, honesty is what

785
00:27:08,865 --> 00:27:10,724
she's looking for in that moment.

786
00:27:11,105 --> 00:27:13,184
Jennifer, as we're having this dialogue in front

787
00:27:13,184 --> 00:27:15,345
of you, what what's coming up for you?

788
00:27:15,345 --> 00:27:17,105
And, do you have any last bits of

789
00:27:17,105 --> 00:27:18,785
advice before we go on to the next

790
00:27:18,785 --> 00:27:19,285
item?

791
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,039
Sure. No.

792
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,160
I appreciate that. And I first want to

793
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:24,980
just validate

794
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,320
anybody going through this process. I mean, even

795
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,880
trying to build empathy like you were just

796
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:31,779
talking about.

797
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,059
I mean,

798
00:27:34,865 --> 00:27:38,085
you guys are rock stars, honestly, that you're

799
00:27:38,144 --> 00:27:41,265
really even attempting this because so many people

800
00:27:41,265 --> 00:27:44,164
go through and make big mistakes in their

801
00:27:44,465 --> 00:27:47,505
relationships and in their own lives, and and

802
00:27:47,505 --> 00:27:49,365
they avoid them. And they just

803
00:27:49,710 --> 00:27:51,150
stay out of them, and maybe you were

804
00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:53,309
forced in through a discovery or something else.

805
00:27:53,309 --> 00:27:55,150
But the fact that you're even coming and

806
00:27:55,150 --> 00:27:55,970
showing up

807
00:27:56,429 --> 00:27:58,509
is a really big deal. And I just

808
00:27:58,509 --> 00:28:01,549
want to validate that since Marilyn was talking

809
00:28:01,549 --> 00:28:04,130
about the ABR, you know, acknowledge,

810
00:28:04,494 --> 00:28:05,315
validate, and respond.

811
00:28:06,015 --> 00:28:08,575
Sometimes I hear, you know, from the guys

812
00:28:08,575 --> 00:28:10,734
I'm working with that they're like, but I

813
00:28:10,734 --> 00:28:12,815
never get validated for the work that I'm

814
00:28:12,815 --> 00:28:15,134
doing. And I'm like, oh my gosh. It's

815
00:28:15,134 --> 00:28:17,680
amazing that you're even showing up and trying

816
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,680
to do this work because it's hard. It's

817
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,400
hard to be around somebody when their nervous

818
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:23,539
system has been,

819
00:28:24,799 --> 00:28:26,420
you know, emotionally dysregulated,

820
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,600
and you're you're the one who's caused that.

821
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,275
That just creates a lot of shame. A

822
00:28:31,275 --> 00:28:32,494
big part of the male,

823
00:28:32,795 --> 00:28:34,795
you know, ego is built up in being

824
00:28:34,795 --> 00:28:35,535
a protector

825
00:28:35,914 --> 00:28:38,075
and, you know, being a protector, a provider,

826
00:28:38,075 --> 00:28:40,174
and a lover. And when those things are

827
00:28:40,475 --> 00:28:41,615
are kind of emotionally

828
00:28:42,315 --> 00:28:43,775
ama through experience,

829
00:28:44,075 --> 00:28:44,759
those things,

830
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,480
also get wounded. Those parts of the male

831
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:48,619
ego get wounded.

832
00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:51,559
I will say also, though, that that your

833
00:28:51,559 --> 00:28:52,779
partners, your wives,

834
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,259
they have really good BS meters.

835
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,404
Yeah. No doubt. You know, they're going to

836
00:28:58,404 --> 00:29:00,964
recognize when you're not authentic, when you're not

837
00:29:00,964 --> 00:29:03,945
honest with them. They're they're learning about gaslighting.

838
00:29:04,085 --> 00:29:06,265
They don't want to continue to be gaslit.

839
00:29:07,684 --> 00:29:10,164
So so be authentic and honest with your

840
00:29:10,164 --> 00:29:11,945
emotion. I think that's huge.

841
00:29:12,369 --> 00:29:14,130
One of the things I talked to, you

842
00:29:14,130 --> 00:29:16,529
know, guys about when we're working through their

843
00:29:16,529 --> 00:29:19,490
recovery early on is an acronym BLAST, bored,

844
00:29:19,490 --> 00:29:22,549
lonely, angry, stressed, tired. Mhmm. Mhmm. And,

845
00:29:23,490 --> 00:29:25,650
I tell them that, you know, when when

846
00:29:25,650 --> 00:29:26,470
they're like,

847
00:29:26,855 --> 00:29:28,775
I've been working so hard. Why am I

848
00:29:28,775 --> 00:29:31,115
not being validated? Why are they not noticing?

849
00:29:31,654 --> 00:29:33,835
I'm like, you know, they also have blast.

850
00:29:34,055 --> 00:29:36,775
They also have these their their traumas come

851
00:29:36,775 --> 00:29:38,695
up. Their betrayal traumas come up when they're

852
00:29:38,695 --> 00:29:41,400
bored, lonely, angry, stressed, and tired. And that's

853
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,259
gonna happen a lot of times.

854
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:46,200
And so they need to have humility and

855
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,000
patience as they're, you know, allowing their wives.

856
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,859
Their wives are lagging indicators.

857
00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:53,960
They know about their addictions before their wives

858
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,180
knew about the addictions.

859
00:29:55,644 --> 00:29:57,404
And so they have to practice a lot

860
00:29:57,404 --> 00:29:58,144
of patience

861
00:29:58,525 --> 00:30:01,005
as as their wives are processing and as

862
00:30:01,005 --> 00:30:03,644
their wives are, you know, allowing those wounds

863
00:30:03,644 --> 00:30:06,525
to heal. Emotional wounds, you know, heal much

864
00:30:06,525 --> 00:30:08,859
more slowly than physical ones. Wounds. Mhmm. Well,

865
00:30:08,859 --> 00:30:10,380
and that and that BS meter is kind

866
00:30:10,380 --> 00:30:11,900
of why you and I first met. So,

867
00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:13,660
Jennifer, you actually reached out to me on

868
00:30:13,660 --> 00:30:15,740
my I have a contact form for therapists

869
00:30:15,740 --> 00:30:17,179
if they wanna kinda get ahold of me

870
00:30:17,179 --> 00:30:18,859
and talk about kinda how we do things.

871
00:30:18,859 --> 00:30:20,319
And this was kinda the the

872
00:30:20,634 --> 00:30:22,394
the piece that connected us was the moment

873
00:30:22,394 --> 00:30:24,414
we met. We kinda saw eye to eye.

874
00:30:25,914 --> 00:30:27,674
I personally and now I you know, there's

875
00:30:27,674 --> 00:30:29,355
probably a lot of guys who don't like

876
00:30:29,355 --> 00:30:30,794
that I say what I say on my

877
00:30:30,794 --> 00:30:32,474
podcast. I don't think guys are in good

878
00:30:32,474 --> 00:30:33,755
recovery, a lot of them. I think the

879
00:30:33,755 --> 00:30:35,619
majority of them are not. I think they're

880
00:30:35,619 --> 00:30:36,599
in good sobriety.

881
00:30:37,299 --> 00:30:38,740
But I also think that's why the relapse

882
00:30:38,740 --> 00:30:41,539
rate's so high is sobriety is not anything

883
00:30:41,539 --> 00:30:43,539
you can count on. Sobriety I always call

884
00:30:43,539 --> 00:30:46,099
sobriety the armor. But, man, it's so nice

885
00:30:46,099 --> 00:30:47,859
to just, like, get out of the war

886
00:30:47,859 --> 00:30:49,539
so you don't need the armor at all

887
00:30:49,539 --> 00:30:52,835
because, you know, the armor has vulnerable spots

888
00:30:52,835 --> 00:30:55,335
always. There's always weakness in every armor,

889
00:30:55,634 --> 00:30:57,714
and, you need to get out of that

890
00:30:57,714 --> 00:30:59,634
place and stop taking fire. You know? I'll

891
00:30:59,634 --> 00:31:02,035
say this again. Sorry, listeners. I've said this

892
00:31:02,035 --> 00:31:03,869
a million times on my podcast. The world

893
00:31:03,869 --> 00:31:05,630
we live in is, like, you know, four

894
00:31:05,630 --> 00:31:07,390
steps back every day. And so if you're

895
00:31:07,390 --> 00:31:09,230
not taking four steps forward, you're not even

896
00:31:09,230 --> 00:31:11,329
treading water. You're getting sucked into,

897
00:31:12,109 --> 00:31:13,970
the over sexualized culture, the objectification

898
00:31:14,269 --> 00:31:16,154
of the female figure, the

899
00:31:19,275 --> 00:31:21,195
experience is going to bring into your life.

900
00:31:21,195 --> 00:31:22,715
I mean, that's just the world we live

901
00:31:22,715 --> 00:31:25,914
in. Every TV show, every sitcom, there's casual

902
00:31:25,914 --> 00:31:27,035
sex, there's,

903
00:31:27,434 --> 00:31:29,035
you know, none of this is really being

904
00:31:29,035 --> 00:31:30,410
honored. I always tell everybody,

905
00:31:30,869 --> 00:31:32,490
you know, if you think that,

906
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:35,190
you know, I always tell everybody, you know,

907
00:31:35,190 --> 00:31:36,869
we don't we don't really act like a

908
00:31:36,869 --> 00:31:39,269
culture that that values monogamy, right? If you

909
00:31:39,269 --> 00:31:41,350
look around, it's it's I would tell you

910
00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:42,015
that we don't.

911
00:31:42,974 --> 00:31:44,815
Well, if you talk to, I would say

912
00:31:44,815 --> 00:31:45,615
99

913
00:31:46,015 --> 00:31:47,394
of couples, they do.

914
00:31:47,695 --> 00:31:49,454
Right? It's a very small fraction of couples

915
00:31:49,454 --> 00:31:50,835
who have a open relationship

916
00:31:51,214 --> 00:31:53,875
from a sexual standpoint. Right? Most couples honor

917
00:31:54,609 --> 00:31:56,849
monogamy from a from a sexual standpoint and

918
00:31:56,849 --> 00:31:58,869
preserving the sexual energy for their relationship.

919
00:31:59,250 --> 00:32:01,349
But that's not how we built this place.

920
00:32:01,730 --> 00:32:03,649
It's it's the it's it's not that. So,

921
00:32:03,649 --> 00:32:04,929
Jennifer, I'd like to,

922
00:32:05,250 --> 00:32:06,929
and and Marilyn, the last topic I'd like

923
00:32:06,929 --> 00:32:08,529
to talk to you is about is,

924
00:32:10,125 --> 00:32:12,285
this BS meter as it relates to the

925
00:32:12,285 --> 00:32:13,325
women. You know, I talk a lot on

926
00:32:13,325 --> 00:32:15,805
my podcast about good recovery from the men's

927
00:32:15,805 --> 00:32:17,404
standpoint so that the men can get in

928
00:32:17,404 --> 00:32:19,644
good recovery. But I wanna call out this

929
00:32:19,644 --> 00:32:22,045
dreaded question, which is, I don't think you're

930
00:32:22,045 --> 00:32:23,724
in good recovery. And I know you have

931
00:32:23,724 --> 00:32:25,559
heard it from the ladies, but here's the

932
00:32:25,559 --> 00:32:27,240
thing. And I know guys find that so

933
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,179
frustrating. You know what I found?

934
00:32:30,679 --> 00:32:31,659
I would say

935
00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:33,659
I would say

936
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,299
49 times out of 50, the woman's right.

937
00:32:38,484 --> 00:32:40,325
I would say there's an exception sometimes her

938
00:32:40,325 --> 00:32:42,884
her nervous system and her she's she's acute.

939
00:32:42,884 --> 00:32:45,125
She she's the resentment is convincing her that

940
00:32:45,125 --> 00:32:46,724
he's not in good recovery. But I would

941
00:32:46,724 --> 00:32:48,804
say the vast majority of the time, he's

942
00:32:48,804 --> 00:32:50,484
in good sobriety and not in good recovery,

943
00:32:50,484 --> 00:32:51,779
and I think she's actually right.

944
00:32:52,340 --> 00:32:53,700
I talk about a little story in my

945
00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:55,299
book around how my wife accused me, and

946
00:32:55,299 --> 00:32:57,240
I went to inhale to attack her.

947
00:32:57,859 --> 00:32:59,700
And then I stopped, and I was like,

948
00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:00,200
Roland,

949
00:33:00,660 --> 00:33:02,500
what is she actually saying? And I stopped

950
00:33:02,500 --> 00:33:04,340
and I said, you know what? She's seen

951
00:33:04,340 --> 00:33:04,840
me

952
00:33:05,224 --> 00:33:07,085
grow businesses, scale businesses,

953
00:33:07,865 --> 00:33:10,345
save businesses. She's seen me try hard for

954
00:33:10,345 --> 00:33:12,125
something that I really, really want.

955
00:33:12,744 --> 00:33:14,825
And I think she's seeing that I'm not

956
00:33:14,825 --> 00:33:16,744
trying as hard as I've tried on other

957
00:33:16,744 --> 00:33:17,940
things with this.

958
00:33:18,899 --> 00:33:21,220
And I was like, instead of attacking her,

959
00:33:21,220 --> 00:33:23,859
I said, you know what? You're right. I

960
00:33:23,859 --> 00:33:26,179
don't enjoy my recovery groups. I don't really

961
00:33:26,179 --> 00:33:27,940
get anything out of the one the current

962
00:33:27,940 --> 00:33:28,980
ones that I'm attending.

963
00:33:29,619 --> 00:33:30,679
I find them inconvenient.

964
00:33:31,220 --> 00:33:33,319
I I'm not connecting with the men there.

965
00:33:34,095 --> 00:33:36,174
I'm doing these workbooks, but I'm just doing

966
00:33:36,174 --> 00:33:37,694
them so that you can see me do

967
00:33:37,694 --> 00:33:40,894
them. I'm not really doing them. And, I

968
00:33:40,974 --> 00:33:42,414
you know, and and and that kinda hit

969
00:33:42,414 --> 00:33:43,855
me hard when I acknowledge that. So I'd

970
00:33:43,855 --> 00:33:45,615
love to get your take on this. You

971
00:33:45,615 --> 00:33:47,954
you both work with addicts and partners.

972
00:33:48,860 --> 00:33:50,860
How do we handle this discussion? Because I

973
00:33:50,860 --> 00:33:52,940
think there's a lot of emotion on both

974
00:33:52,940 --> 00:33:56,140
sides. There's the male defending the fifteen hours

975
00:33:56,140 --> 00:33:58,140
of that he's putting into going to this

976
00:33:58,140 --> 00:33:59,980
meeting, going to that meeting, has this online

977
00:33:59,980 --> 00:34:02,775
group, has this, therapist, and then the couple's

978
00:34:02,775 --> 00:34:05,015
therapist, you know, he feels like, hey. No.

979
00:34:05,015 --> 00:34:06,855
I read the Face in the Shadows book.

980
00:34:06,855 --> 00:34:08,074
I'm doing all of this.

981
00:34:08,695 --> 00:34:11,255
How come she still feels like he's not?

982
00:34:11,255 --> 00:34:11,914
I'm curious.

983
00:34:12,375 --> 00:34:14,234
Jennifer, you go first. Okay.

984
00:34:14,739 --> 00:34:17,780
Sure. Thank you. It's an interesting question. Such

985
00:34:17,780 --> 00:34:19,880
an interesting question that, literally,

986
00:34:20,180 --> 00:34:22,340
last night in our betrayal trauma group, we

987
00:34:22,340 --> 00:34:24,280
were talking about this question.

988
00:34:25,059 --> 00:34:27,140
And they were saying, you know, I just

989
00:34:27,140 --> 00:34:29,059
don't think he's in good recovery. And I

990
00:34:29,059 --> 00:34:29,800
said, ladies,

991
00:34:30,755 --> 00:34:33,474
I swear I heard this from two, maybe

992
00:34:33,474 --> 00:34:33,974
three

993
00:34:34,275 --> 00:34:37,555
of my female clients today. Mhmm. So it

994
00:34:37,555 --> 00:34:39,894
is a very, very burning question.

995
00:34:40,515 --> 00:34:42,449
And, again, I do think that,

996
00:34:43,010 --> 00:34:45,969
when when women have been betrayed, I think

997
00:34:45,969 --> 00:34:48,369
part of their female brain makeup is to

998
00:34:48,369 --> 00:34:49,269
maybe be

999
00:34:49,570 --> 00:34:50,550
a little suspicious,

1000
00:34:51,170 --> 00:34:53,030
but also have great sensitivity

1001
00:34:53,489 --> 00:34:56,385
and spidey senses, so to speak, and and

1002
00:34:56,385 --> 00:34:57,925
the ability to really,

1003
00:34:58,385 --> 00:34:58,885
recognize

1004
00:34:59,905 --> 00:35:02,244
when their husbands are in recovery.

1005
00:35:02,704 --> 00:35:03,925
They know you

1006
00:35:04,545 --> 00:35:07,025
sometimes better than you know you because if

1007
00:35:07,025 --> 00:35:08,485
you have been working,

1008
00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:10,900
you know, your addiction

1009
00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:13,059
Mhmm. For a lot of years of your

1010
00:35:13,059 --> 00:35:15,239
marriage, you've been in a place of,

1011
00:35:15,940 --> 00:35:16,440
compartmentalization

1012
00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:18,760
and a place of dissociation

1013
00:35:19,219 --> 00:35:19,880
at times,

1014
00:35:20,579 --> 00:35:23,619
and your wife has watched you in those

1015
00:35:23,619 --> 00:35:24,119
places.

1016
00:35:24,485 --> 00:35:27,065
And so she knows you, and she recognizes

1017
00:35:28,324 --> 00:35:31,065
what, you know, good recovery is for you.

1018
00:35:31,364 --> 00:35:34,804
I do encourage, you know, my female clients

1019
00:35:34,804 --> 00:35:37,045
going through the betrayal that they need to

1020
00:35:37,045 --> 00:35:38,664
let, you know, the husband's,

1021
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,239
the husband own his recovery. It's not their

1022
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,339
job to police the husband's recovery.

1023
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,579
But they can also sense

1024
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,500
when the husband is not Mhmm. Good recovery.

1025
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,664
Very often, I think it's interesting you tell

1026
00:35:52,664 --> 00:35:54,744
the story about, you know, your wife has

1027
00:35:54,744 --> 00:35:57,965
watched you successfully build businesses and

1028
00:35:58,265 --> 00:36:01,065
and work through major obstacles, and she knows

1029
00:36:01,065 --> 00:36:02,525
when you're connected

1030
00:36:03,224 --> 00:36:05,164
Mhmm. To what you want to achieve.

1031
00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:07,579
Mhmm. And so I do think women with

1032
00:36:07,579 --> 00:36:10,780
those spidey senses or BS meters, whatever we

1033
00:36:10,780 --> 00:36:13,119
want to call them, they are able to

1034
00:36:13,260 --> 00:36:13,760
sense.

1035
00:36:14,059 --> 00:36:16,000
Mhmm. It's what we sense, intuitively

1036
00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:16,800
sense,

1037
00:36:17,099 --> 00:36:19,594
when you are committed to the process. And

1038
00:36:19,594 --> 00:36:21,674
they can tell when you're just showing up.

1039
00:36:21,674 --> 00:36:23,214
They can tell when you're

1040
00:36:23,514 --> 00:36:25,295
just checking off the boxes.

1041
00:36:25,755 --> 00:36:28,394
Mhmm. And they want to see that you

1042
00:36:28,394 --> 00:36:29,934
care about the relationship

1043
00:36:30,954 --> 00:36:33,320
as much as they care about the relationship.

1044
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,480
Yeah. I'm gonna empathize with the men here

1045
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,719
for a split second because I also think

1046
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:38,619
that the

1047
00:36:39,079 --> 00:36:39,980
the field,

1048
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,320
makes it hard for guys to get really

1049
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,159
excited about recovery. It's why I started my

1050
00:36:45,159 --> 00:36:47,320
groups because my guys love, I mean, you

1051
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,505
have, they're very enthusiastic about our approach, and

1052
00:36:50,505 --> 00:36:52,344
it's because I don't look at it as

1053
00:36:52,344 --> 00:36:53,385
sex and pornography addiction. I look at it

1054
00:36:53,385 --> 00:36:55,625
as process addiction. Now, yes, these process have

1055
00:36:55,625 --> 00:36:56,525
led to

1056
00:36:56,824 --> 00:36:59,144
a sexual acting out, but the truth is

1057
00:36:59,144 --> 00:37:01,489
you're probably engaging in these exact same processes

1058
00:37:01,489 --> 00:37:03,089
in a lot of ways that aren't sexual.

1059
00:37:03,089 --> 00:37:04,849
And that's to me why her BS meter

1060
00:37:04,849 --> 00:37:06,789
is high is she feels

1061
00:37:07,250 --> 00:37:09,170
she doesn't necessarily even know how to articulate

1062
00:37:09,170 --> 00:37:10,369
it. And I think that's frustrating for the

1063
00:37:10,369 --> 00:37:11,969
guy is the guy is like, tell me

1064
00:37:11,969 --> 00:37:13,730
why. Tell me what. And she is like,

1065
00:37:13,730 --> 00:37:15,329
I don't know. It's just a feeling. It's

1066
00:37:15,329 --> 00:37:17,295
just a feeling. But this is where I

1067
00:37:17,295 --> 00:37:19,695
I agree with them is I think that

1068
00:37:19,695 --> 00:37:20,195
they

1069
00:37:20,655 --> 00:37:22,894
I think their body knows that the guy

1070
00:37:22,894 --> 00:37:25,715
who did those things is actually still capable.

1071
00:37:25,775 --> 00:37:28,335
He's sober, but he's still capable. And that's

1072
00:37:28,335 --> 00:37:30,750
why I that's to me you know, this

1073
00:37:30,750 --> 00:37:32,690
is deeper than sex and pornography. It's,

1074
00:37:33,469 --> 00:37:35,710
if if if you have found value in

1075
00:37:35,710 --> 00:37:37,949
a novel sexual experience, we need to examine

1076
00:37:37,949 --> 00:37:39,969
that. If you found value in,

1077
00:37:40,510 --> 00:37:43,489
what the what what, being with an extremely

1078
00:37:43,710 --> 00:37:46,244
attractive female that's gonna enhance your life,

1079
00:37:46,805 --> 00:37:47,305
Why?

1080
00:37:47,605 --> 00:37:49,445
What's that gonna do to your life exactly?

1081
00:37:49,445 --> 00:37:50,644
And I think we you know, we've been

1082
00:37:50,644 --> 00:37:52,905
programmed at a very, very young age

1083
00:37:53,204 --> 00:37:54,644
to up you know, we see all the

1084
00:37:54,644 --> 00:37:57,204
celebrities. Every two years, they're upgrading their wives

1085
00:37:57,204 --> 00:37:59,365
to the newer, younger, hotter model. And, you

1086
00:37:59,365 --> 00:38:01,039
know, sports figures are doing this, and just

1087
00:38:01,119 --> 00:38:02,659
it's everywhere around us.

1088
00:38:03,039 --> 00:38:04,880
And then even the women are participating. Right?

1089
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,280
They're they're going and paying surgeons to make

1090
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,440
them look like a newer and younger model.

1091
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:10,739
Right? So there's this big

1092
00:38:11,119 --> 00:38:13,599
perception of some sort of value there. I

1093
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:15,539
think both men and women need to unsubscribe

1094
00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:18,244
from that. There's nothing wrong with aging. Aging

1095
00:38:18,244 --> 00:38:20,724
is is normal. You will age and you

1096
00:38:20,724 --> 00:38:23,045
will die. So why are we, like, trying

1097
00:38:23,045 --> 00:38:26,325
to delay something that's that's very natural and

1098
00:38:26,325 --> 00:38:28,085
normal and has been happening for years? And

1099
00:38:28,085 --> 00:38:29,925
who decided that that was a bad thing?

1100
00:38:29,925 --> 00:38:31,765
I think that's where we need to start

1101
00:38:31,765 --> 00:38:33,980
there. Like, that's the key to overcoming process

1102
00:38:33,980 --> 00:38:36,059
addiction is who made this up and why

1103
00:38:36,059 --> 00:38:37,500
do you believe it? And you think it's

1104
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:39,920
actually healthy to perpetuate this belief

1105
00:38:40,219 --> 00:38:42,480
and put this on the the following generations.

1106
00:38:42,539 --> 00:38:44,699
You know, to me, recovery needs to be

1107
00:38:44,699 --> 00:38:46,320
a conversation about sustainability,

1108
00:38:47,015 --> 00:38:48,635
about what's this doing to humanity.

1109
00:38:49,015 --> 00:38:50,215
To me, if you're making it just about

1110
00:38:50,215 --> 00:38:51,655
you and your wife and trying to get

1111
00:38:51,655 --> 00:38:53,015
her to trust you again, I'm not sure

1112
00:38:53,015 --> 00:38:54,295
you're gonna escape, and I'm not sure she's

1113
00:38:54,295 --> 00:38:55,815
ever gonna feel safe. I think that's I

1114
00:38:55,815 --> 00:38:57,815
think that's fake recovery. I think this this

1115
00:38:57,815 --> 00:39:00,215
problem's way bigger than you and way bigger

1116
00:39:00,215 --> 00:39:01,574
than your marriage. And I think if you

1117
00:39:01,574 --> 00:39:03,949
start honoring it like that, she'll start feeling

1118
00:39:03,949 --> 00:39:05,789
safe because that it's that that moment where

1119
00:39:05,789 --> 00:39:07,489
she understands that you know

1120
00:39:07,949 --> 00:39:10,210
what's going on and you're aware of it.

1121
00:39:10,349 --> 00:39:12,429
It's that lack of awareness that creeps them

1122
00:39:12,429 --> 00:39:14,190
out, and, frankly, it creeps me out. I

1123
00:39:14,190 --> 00:39:15,949
have guys in my program. It's really funny.

1124
00:39:15,949 --> 00:39:17,170
The guys who leave,

1125
00:39:18,105 --> 00:39:19,724
the guys who leave at, like, eight months

1126
00:39:20,025 --> 00:39:21,704
are the last ones that should be leaving.

1127
00:39:21,704 --> 00:39:23,144
And it's funny. The guys who stay for

1128
00:39:23,144 --> 00:39:25,085
eighteen months, two years, three years,

1129
00:39:25,385 --> 00:39:27,545
these guys were, like, kicking butt. Like, three

1130
00:39:27,545 --> 00:39:29,224
months in, they were, like, they were cruising.

1131
00:39:29,224 --> 00:39:30,824
They were but it's funny. I always see

1132
00:39:30,824 --> 00:39:32,585
that as the guy who I'm like, oh,

1133
00:39:32,585 --> 00:39:33,244
you're leaving?

1134
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,200
Okay. You know? It's none of my business.

1135
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:36,160
You know? I'm not gonna tell them that

1136
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:37,360
they're not in a place to do it

1137
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:38,720
on their own. I mean, that's their decision

1138
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:39,300
to make.

1139
00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:41,860
But it's I I find that really ironic

1140
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,680
that the ones who bail are the ones

1141
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,920
who, in my opinion, probably need it the

1142
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,160
most. And I think that's just kinda speaking

1143
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,905
to this. Do you really honor the size

1144
00:39:50,905 --> 00:39:52,585
of this? And I think some guys don't

1145
00:39:52,585 --> 00:39:53,944
want it to be any bigger than sex

1146
00:39:53,944 --> 00:39:55,545
and porn. I think that's a very convenient

1147
00:39:55,545 --> 00:39:56,824
story. And so I think they're like, oh,

1148
00:39:56,824 --> 00:39:58,184
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. See? There we go. Eight

1149
00:39:58,184 --> 00:39:59,724
months. Haven't done it. I'm good.

1150
00:40:00,344 --> 00:40:02,184
I'm like, well, I don't know. The statistics

1151
00:40:02,184 --> 00:40:03,000
would say otherwise.

1152
00:40:03,559 --> 00:40:04,840
And, you know, have you been to a

1153
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,519
group? Have you seen a guy five years

1154
00:40:06,519 --> 00:40:07,559
out, ten years out?

1155
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,079
I don't know.

1156
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,480
To me, I've chosen the other route. I'm

1157
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:12,760
not gonna take my foot off the gas.

1158
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,119
It's not worth it. I love my wife

1159
00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:15,945
too much to do that. But, Marilyn, how

1160
00:40:15,945 --> 00:40:17,785
about you? As you as we're talking about

1161
00:40:17,785 --> 00:40:20,025
this topic, how what would you say to

1162
00:40:20,025 --> 00:40:21,704
both the men and the women with this?

1163
00:40:21,704 --> 00:40:23,545
Because it it's a point of serious contention,

1164
00:40:23,545 --> 00:40:25,065
and it and it and it comes up

1165
00:40:25,065 --> 00:40:26,905
at year six months. It comes up at

1166
00:40:26,905 --> 00:40:28,664
year one. It comes up at year 1.5.

1167
00:40:28,664 --> 00:40:30,425
It comes up at year 2.5. It comes

1168
00:40:30,425 --> 00:40:32,630
up at sometimes even at year three. Are

1169
00:40:32,630 --> 00:40:34,390
you in good recovery? This is not this

1170
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:36,470
this record plays for a while. Marilyn, what

1171
00:40:36,470 --> 00:40:38,869
would you say to both partners about how

1172
00:40:38,869 --> 00:40:40,470
do we handle this? Because it's it it

1173
00:40:40,470 --> 00:40:42,550
should not be a divide it should not

1174
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:44,890
be a dividing topic. It should be a

1175
00:40:45,324 --> 00:40:45,824
collaborative

1176
00:40:46,204 --> 00:40:46,704
topic.

1177
00:40:47,565 --> 00:40:48,065
Yes.

1178
00:40:48,765 --> 00:40:51,085
So one of the things that I see

1179
00:40:51,085 --> 00:40:52,065
as so important

1180
00:40:52,364 --> 00:40:52,864
is,

1181
00:40:53,405 --> 00:40:55,184
that systems piece around,

1182
00:40:55,724 --> 00:40:57,985
you know, both are doing their individual recovery

1183
00:40:58,045 --> 00:41:00,570
and having a good couples therapist who can

1184
00:41:00,570 --> 00:41:01,869
help integrate that

1185
00:41:02,890 --> 00:41:04,489
because, you know, you can do your own

1186
00:41:04,489 --> 00:41:06,650
individual work. Both of you will be doing

1187
00:41:06,650 --> 00:41:08,489
your own individual work, but then how does

1188
00:41:08,489 --> 00:41:10,969
that translate to the relationship and to new

1189
00:41:10,969 --> 00:41:12,190
patterns in the relationship

1190
00:41:12,809 --> 00:41:16,030
is really important. And sometimes when she says,

1191
00:41:16,414 --> 00:41:18,514
I I just you you're not in recovery,

1192
00:41:18,574 --> 00:41:21,215
sometimes when the partner's pushing back on that,

1193
00:41:21,215 --> 00:41:23,135
they're seeing that lack of awareness that you

1194
00:41:23,135 --> 00:41:24,114
were talking about.

1195
00:41:24,414 --> 00:41:26,034
They may be seeing some impatience

1196
00:41:26,335 --> 00:41:26,835
with,

1197
00:41:27,135 --> 00:41:28,974
you know, spending less time with the family

1198
00:41:28,974 --> 00:41:32,219
maybe or less patience in the family dynamic

1199
00:41:32,219 --> 00:41:33,980
than maybe they may have in their recovery

1200
00:41:33,980 --> 00:41:36,059
work or with their their men's group or

1201
00:41:36,059 --> 00:41:37,660
their Or the the shape shifting is the

1202
00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:39,260
one I see too. Like, if we're at

1203
00:41:39,260 --> 00:41:41,019
a conference and all of a sudden, I'm

1204
00:41:41,019 --> 00:41:43,019
like, why are you talking like that? Why

1205
00:41:43,099 --> 00:41:44,945
like, what's happening? You know? And she sees

1206
00:41:44,945 --> 00:41:45,765
you performing

1207
00:41:46,385 --> 00:41:47,985
to get people to like you. That creeps

1208
00:41:47,985 --> 00:41:49,425
them out too because it's like, hey. What

1209
00:41:49,425 --> 00:41:51,585
about being one thing with one morals instead

1210
00:41:51,585 --> 00:41:53,605
of values at all times? What about integrity?

1211
00:41:53,744 --> 00:41:55,425
Because I see you still kind of becoming

1212
00:41:55,425 --> 00:41:57,150
whatever you need to become for the situation,

1213
00:41:57,150 --> 00:41:58,829
and that doesn't make me feel safe. So

1214
00:41:58,829 --> 00:42:00,030
that's another one I just wanted to bring

1215
00:42:00,030 --> 00:42:01,389
up. I hate sorry to interrupt, but I

1216
00:42:01,549 --> 00:42:04,190
that's another one in addition. It's like that

1217
00:42:04,190 --> 00:42:06,909
that that to them, that's not safe. Like,

1218
00:42:06,909 --> 00:42:08,589
nobody else in this room is doing that.

1219
00:42:08,589 --> 00:42:10,605
You're doing that way more than everyone here.

1220
00:42:10,605 --> 00:42:12,204
I don't like that. Like, everyone else is

1221
00:42:12,204 --> 00:42:12,945
being themself.

1222
00:42:13,405 --> 00:42:15,664
You're, like, putting on this performance

1223
00:42:15,965 --> 00:42:17,744
constantly. I don't I don't like that.

1224
00:42:18,445 --> 00:42:21,005
Yes. So that integration piece of what the

1225
00:42:21,005 --> 00:42:23,005
work that you're doing individually and how do

1226
00:42:23,005 --> 00:42:25,664
you integrate that into your relationship

1227
00:42:26,125 --> 00:42:28,969
Mhmm. Makes so much difference in

1228
00:42:30,150 --> 00:42:32,630
her being able to see the progress. Right?

1229
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:34,410
Her being able to feel it and

1230
00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:36,410
and recognize that it's

1231
00:42:37,269 --> 00:42:38,789
you know, to be able to trust that

1232
00:42:38,789 --> 00:42:40,775
it's really here to stay. Right?

1233
00:42:41,234 --> 00:42:42,994
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Well said. I like that.

1234
00:42:42,994 --> 00:42:44,674
It's a it because to because, again, the

1235
00:42:44,674 --> 00:42:46,434
per to and to me, guys, just did

1236
00:42:46,434 --> 00:42:47,795
you hear the spirit in when she said

1237
00:42:47,795 --> 00:42:50,994
that? It's they're not demanding perfection. They wanna

1238
00:42:50,994 --> 00:42:53,789
see you playing the game that protects them.

1239
00:42:53,949 --> 00:42:56,190
And to me, I I really believe this,

1240
00:42:56,190 --> 00:42:57,390
and I'm gonna say it again. I already

1241
00:42:57,390 --> 00:42:58,989
said it, but I really believe this. Until

1242
00:42:58,989 --> 00:43:01,469
you're honoring the size of this thing, the

1243
00:43:01,469 --> 00:43:01,969
systemic

1244
00:43:02,349 --> 00:43:03,969
issue of this, the

1245
00:43:04,269 --> 00:43:06,670
harm that this is doing to the young

1246
00:43:06,670 --> 00:43:09,065
men and young women after you, really truly

1247
00:43:09,065 --> 00:43:11,065
honoring all of it, not just her. Like,

1248
00:43:11,065 --> 00:43:13,465
what's done is done. Like, she's not worried

1249
00:43:13,465 --> 00:43:15,305
about that. Like, obviously, she doesn't want you

1250
00:43:15,305 --> 00:43:17,545
to do it again. But, like, to her,

1251
00:43:17,545 --> 00:43:18,925
it's like, do you realize

1252
00:43:19,305 --> 00:43:22,125
why this happened? And are you really truly

1253
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,160
participating in the elimination of this behavior practice?

1254
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,000
Because to I mean, I only guys understand.

1255
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:28,500
Like,

1256
00:43:29,039 --> 00:43:31,840
we women don't do what we do. They

1257
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,660
don't sit around in college at the cafeteria

1258
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,260
table talking about

1259
00:43:37,184 --> 00:43:37,765
the objectifying

1260
00:43:38,144 --> 00:43:39,664
this guy on the other table. They don't

1261
00:43:39,664 --> 00:43:41,445
do that. They treat him like a person.

1262
00:43:41,825 --> 00:43:43,184
I know I'm I'm I'll speak to all

1263
00:43:43,184 --> 00:43:44,465
women. I'm sure there's some women who do.

1264
00:43:44,465 --> 00:43:46,224
But, like, you know, when you're walking behind

1265
00:43:46,224 --> 00:43:48,065
someone, they're not saying, oh my gosh. Like,

1266
00:43:48,065 --> 00:43:49,585
you know, like, guys, I don't think you

1267
00:43:49,585 --> 00:43:52,639
guys understand. Like, what we have culturally done

1268
00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:54,639
and what the movies and everybody has convinced

1269
00:43:54,639 --> 00:43:55,539
you is normal,

1270
00:43:56,079 --> 00:43:58,719
normal doesn't mean okay. Normal means a lot

1271
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,019
of people are doing it.

1272
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:03,139
Right? The holocaust happened for the same reason.

1273
00:44:03,335 --> 00:44:05,174
Slavery happened. We thought it was okay to

1274
00:44:05,174 --> 00:44:06,934
go pluck a guy out of his, you

1275
00:44:06,934 --> 00:44:09,255
know, pluck the mayor out of his community

1276
00:44:09,255 --> 00:44:10,694
and call change his name and call him

1277
00:44:10,694 --> 00:44:12,454
a slave and make him clean stuff for

1278
00:44:12,454 --> 00:44:15,670
free. Like, guys, normal's scary. And I think

1279
00:44:15,670 --> 00:44:16,949
everyone needs to be and that's what these

1280
00:44:16,949 --> 00:44:19,349
women are saying is they're not this is

1281
00:44:19,349 --> 00:44:21,429
no longer really about the betrayal. This is

1282
00:44:21,429 --> 00:44:21,929
about,

1283
00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:24,390
like, I don't think we're safe, and I

1284
00:44:24,390 --> 00:44:25,909
have a lot of reasons why. And she

1285
00:44:25,909 --> 00:44:27,585
wants you to get on her team. And

1286
00:44:27,664 --> 00:44:29,264
that was what to me, that's where safety

1287
00:44:29,264 --> 00:44:30,864
comes back. It's like, are you fighting the

1288
00:44:30,864 --> 00:44:31,364
fight?

1289
00:44:31,664 --> 00:44:33,184
Because this world is not a safe place

1290
00:44:33,184 --> 00:44:34,385
to live in, and I need to see

1291
00:44:34,385 --> 00:44:35,744
you fighting the fight. I need to see

1292
00:44:35,744 --> 00:44:37,744
you leaning in pretty hard because if the

1293
00:44:37,744 --> 00:44:39,905
day I see you not leaning in, you

1294
00:44:39,905 --> 00:44:42,059
know, what's gonna happen? You know? And I'll

1295
00:44:42,059 --> 00:44:43,739
I'll just say this, guys, the relapse rate

1296
00:44:43,739 --> 00:44:45,179
is not low. You know? The one study

1297
00:44:45,179 --> 00:44:46,699
that I saw puts it at the the

1298
00:44:46,699 --> 00:44:48,380
recovery rate at thirty four percent. That means

1299
00:44:48,380 --> 00:44:50,940
the vast majority of men, 60, you know,

1300
00:44:50,940 --> 00:44:51,920
seven or whatever,

1301
00:44:52,699 --> 00:44:54,784
are relapsing. And so I think we just

1302
00:44:54,784 --> 00:44:56,384
need to we need to honor this with

1303
00:44:56,384 --> 00:44:57,984
the level which just needs to be honored.

1304
00:44:57,984 --> 00:45:00,144
This is not something to play with. I

1305
00:45:00,144 --> 00:45:01,284
was talking to somebody,

1306
00:45:02,304 --> 00:45:04,784
a podcast episode right before you guys. She

1307
00:45:04,784 --> 00:45:06,324
said, I don't know why we don't,

1308
00:45:07,029 --> 00:45:08,389
I don't know why we're not more scared

1309
00:45:08,389 --> 00:45:11,029
of this. She's like she's like she's like,

1310
00:45:11,029 --> 00:45:12,869
okay. So what? Nothing's going in your mouth

1311
00:45:12,869 --> 00:45:14,630
or being injected into your arm or you're

1312
00:45:14,630 --> 00:45:16,630
not smoking anything. She's like, so what? Look

1313
00:45:16,630 --> 00:45:18,409
at what this is doing to the brain.

1314
00:45:18,469 --> 00:45:21,144
It's lighting this sucker up with, arguably one

1315
00:45:21,144 --> 00:45:21,644
of

1316
00:45:21,945 --> 00:45:22,845
the most stimulating,

1317
00:45:23,785 --> 00:45:25,865
experiences that we can have, and you think

1318
00:45:25,865 --> 00:45:28,025
your body's gonna not want that again and

1319
00:45:28,025 --> 00:45:30,425
again and again and again. Like, you guys

1320
00:45:30,425 --> 00:45:31,405
should be terrified

1321
00:45:31,945 --> 00:45:35,405
of this whole process because, again, you know,

1322
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:36,960
it's it's

1323
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:39,340
to eliminate this is is not a small

1324
00:45:39,340 --> 00:45:40,699
feat in my opinion, and we have a

1325
00:45:40,699 --> 00:45:42,539
lot of things working against us. And so

1326
00:45:42,539 --> 00:45:44,059
to me, if you're not taking five steps

1327
00:45:44,059 --> 00:45:44,559
forward,

1328
00:45:45,180 --> 00:45:46,619
I don't know. I think your wife has

1329
00:45:46,619 --> 00:45:48,880
every reason to be a bit concerned with,

1330
00:45:49,340 --> 00:45:51,420
maybe a return to some old old habits.

1331
00:45:51,420 --> 00:45:51,704
Right?

1332
00:45:52,585 --> 00:45:54,344
So last thing, you guys have all sorts

1333
00:45:54,344 --> 00:45:57,585
of neat, product offerings for, people who want

1334
00:45:57,585 --> 00:45:58,025
to do,

1335
00:45:58,585 --> 00:45:59,085
intensives,

1336
00:45:59,864 --> 00:46:00,364
couples,

1337
00:46:01,864 --> 00:46:04,025
addicts, partners. Talk to us about how people

1338
00:46:04,025 --> 00:46:05,005
can find you.

1339
00:46:05,340 --> 00:46:07,260
What's the website? What kind of resources do

1340
00:46:07,260 --> 00:46:09,260
they have? And if they do wanna work

1341
00:46:09,260 --> 00:46:10,880
with you, how's that process work?

1342
00:46:11,579 --> 00:46:14,700
Yeah. I'm happy to do that. So I

1343
00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:17,019
really think it's important that you were talking

1344
00:46:17,019 --> 00:46:18,000
about the sociological

1345
00:46:18,704 --> 00:46:20,864
changes that are going on in society, and

1346
00:46:20,864 --> 00:46:22,164
it's really, really hard.

1347
00:46:22,864 --> 00:46:25,505
And, we really do believe that we have

1348
00:46:25,505 --> 00:46:27,985
courageous people who are showing up to do

1349
00:46:27,985 --> 00:46:29,125
the work with us.

1350
00:46:29,744 --> 00:46:33,844
And, we often get referrals from inpatient resources.

1351
00:46:34,349 --> 00:46:35,090
We are,

1352
00:46:35,710 --> 00:46:37,789
CSAT trained. We have a number of our

1353
00:46:37,789 --> 00:46:41,150
therapists who are certified sex addiction therapists as

1354
00:46:41,150 --> 00:46:41,890
well as,

1355
00:46:42,590 --> 00:46:44,849
certified partner trauma therapists

1356
00:46:45,150 --> 00:46:46,849
through also through ITAP.

1357
00:46:47,474 --> 00:46:47,974
And,

1358
00:46:48,835 --> 00:46:51,555
they can check us out. Our website is

1359
00:46:51,555 --> 00:46:53,394
atlri.com.

1360
00:46:53,394 --> 00:46:55,655
We are located in Atlanta, Georgia.

1361
00:46:56,835 --> 00:46:59,155
We have people who work both as,

1362
00:46:59,715 --> 00:47:01,414
clinicians and as coaches.

1363
00:47:02,469 --> 00:47:04,469
We do have programs where we can do

1364
00:47:04,469 --> 00:47:07,030
some psycho ed work with people to help

1365
00:47:07,030 --> 00:47:07,670
them really,

1366
00:47:08,710 --> 00:47:10,250
build a plan and,

1367
00:47:10,789 --> 00:47:12,710
as well as group work to work with

1368
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:13,530
other people.

1369
00:47:13,925 --> 00:47:16,644
We are building intensives. We don't currently have

1370
00:47:16,644 --> 00:47:18,885
one being offered, but we are building those

1371
00:47:18,885 --> 00:47:21,864
because we are very systemically oriented and

1372
00:47:22,484 --> 00:47:24,804
and feel very strongly about the need to

1373
00:47:24,804 --> 00:47:26,940
heal the whole system. This isn't,

1374
00:47:27,260 --> 00:47:28,800
this isn't an individual

1375
00:47:29,179 --> 00:47:30,960
healing process. It is a holistic

1376
00:47:31,659 --> 00:47:32,559
healing process

1377
00:47:33,099 --> 00:47:34,880
because, you know, none of us really,

1378
00:47:36,780 --> 00:47:39,019
makes the decisions we make in life on

1379
00:47:39,019 --> 00:47:42,195
an island. We are we are influenced by

1380
00:47:42,195 --> 00:47:43,335
those around us,

1381
00:47:43,795 --> 00:47:45,494
and then we don't stay committed

1382
00:47:45,795 --> 00:47:48,835
to our goals without the influence and support

1383
00:47:48,835 --> 00:47:50,755
of those around us. And so we want

1384
00:47:50,755 --> 00:47:53,235
to be those who can provide support for

1385
00:47:53,235 --> 00:47:54,135
people and

1386
00:47:54,750 --> 00:47:55,550
help them to,

1387
00:47:56,030 --> 00:47:57,949
live their greatest dreams. I think it was

1388
00:47:57,949 --> 00:48:00,289
great when you were talking about leaning in.

1389
00:48:00,829 --> 00:48:02,829
And when I think about leaning in, it's

1390
00:48:02,829 --> 00:48:05,409
showing up showing who you really are authentically

1391
00:48:05,710 --> 00:48:06,849
and, you know,

1392
00:48:07,275 --> 00:48:09,454
addiction gets in the way of doing that.

1393
00:48:09,914 --> 00:48:11,914
We're just wanting to help you learn to

1394
00:48:11,914 --> 00:48:13,994
lean into who you really are and what

1395
00:48:13,994 --> 00:48:16,875
you really want to accomplish again. Yeah. I'm

1396
00:48:16,875 --> 00:48:18,954
happy to hear that. I I I I

1397
00:48:18,954 --> 00:48:21,114
personally attend two intensives a year, and I

1398
00:48:21,114 --> 00:48:22,335
plan to my whole life.

1399
00:48:22,875 --> 00:48:24,929
They're starting to not no longer be in

1400
00:48:24,929 --> 00:48:27,090
the sex addiction field anymore. I'm kind of

1401
00:48:27,090 --> 00:48:27,829
going into,

1402
00:48:28,130 --> 00:48:29,889
you know, emotional, you know, somatic,

1403
00:48:30,289 --> 00:48:32,690
experiences and different different kinds of intensives. But,

1404
00:48:32,690 --> 00:48:33,510
I mean, guys,

1405
00:48:34,690 --> 00:48:35,989
you know, I I,

1406
00:48:38,215 --> 00:48:39,195
in my opinion,

1407
00:48:40,934 --> 00:48:43,414
this is not I think the one reason

1408
00:48:43,414 --> 00:48:45,014
I don't like this being called addiction is

1409
00:48:45,014 --> 00:48:46,934
it implies that you're gonna get over it.

1410
00:48:46,934 --> 00:48:48,295
I think that's kind of the the problem

1411
00:48:48,295 --> 00:48:49,815
with that word is that there is this,

1412
00:48:49,815 --> 00:48:50,315
like,

1413
00:48:50,690 --> 00:48:52,930
oh, I'm gonna recover. I'm gonna withdraw, and

1414
00:48:52,930 --> 00:48:53,970
then else will be out of my life,

1415
00:48:53,970 --> 00:48:55,110
and we can carry on.

1416
00:48:55,730 --> 00:48:57,730
I do I have had some guys in

1417
00:48:57,730 --> 00:49:00,050
my program who actually do what appears to

1418
00:49:00,050 --> 00:49:01,890
be get into a really good place where

1419
00:49:01,890 --> 00:49:03,730
this isn't a massive thing. So that that

1420
00:49:03,730 --> 00:49:05,090
can happen. I'm not gonna say that it

1421
00:49:05,090 --> 00:49:05,590
can't.

1422
00:49:06,764 --> 00:49:08,224
I would say the vast majority,

1423
00:49:09,244 --> 00:49:11,244
you know, they're mentally prepared to fight the

1424
00:49:11,244 --> 00:49:13,324
fight forever. The the the thoughts are not

1425
00:49:13,324 --> 00:49:14,625
gone. The objectification

1426
00:49:15,164 --> 00:49:17,744
temptations are still very much present.

1427
00:49:19,099 --> 00:49:21,260
You know, they're they're it's not a they

1428
00:49:21,260 --> 00:49:23,180
have not won the war. They're still very,

1429
00:49:23,180 --> 00:49:24,940
very much in it. They're just more equipped

1430
00:49:24,940 --> 00:49:26,460
to have it not mess with their life.

1431
00:49:26,460 --> 00:49:28,219
I you know, to me, I don't I

1432
00:49:28,219 --> 00:49:29,900
don't mind fighting the fight. I love it.

1433
00:49:29,900 --> 00:49:31,099
I love it. I really do. I think

1434
00:49:31,099 --> 00:49:32,594
this is fantastic. I I think there's so

1435
00:49:32,594 --> 00:49:34,355
many issues with me that I did not

1436
00:49:34,355 --> 00:49:36,114
know that I had, and I think recovery

1437
00:49:36,114 --> 00:49:38,195
is forcing me to turn over every flipping

1438
00:49:38,195 --> 00:49:38,695
stone

1439
00:49:39,074 --> 00:49:39,554
and,

1440
00:49:39,954 --> 00:49:42,275
you know, fix one after another after another

1441
00:49:42,275 --> 00:49:44,434
after another. And I'll tell you right now,

1442
00:49:44,434 --> 00:49:46,135
I would not wanna go back

1443
00:49:46,500 --> 00:49:48,179
to the life that I was living. No

1444
00:49:48,179 --> 00:49:48,679
way.

1445
00:49:49,059 --> 00:49:51,619
You know, I I that unconscious way of

1446
00:49:51,619 --> 00:49:54,440
existing and thinking that I'm doing things right,

1447
00:49:54,820 --> 00:49:56,579
I had no idea what I was missing

1448
00:49:56,579 --> 00:49:57,460
out on. And,

1449
00:49:57,860 --> 00:49:59,139
you know, I think I I share that

1450
00:49:59,139 --> 00:50:01,304
message with everybody listening to, you know, lean

1451
00:50:01,304 --> 00:50:02,905
in. This is not an inconvenience. If it

1452
00:50:02,905 --> 00:50:04,844
feels like an inconvenience, you're doing it wrong.

1453
00:50:04,984 --> 00:50:06,585
I'll say that right now. If your recovery

1454
00:50:06,585 --> 00:50:07,644
feels like a burden,

1455
00:50:08,105 --> 00:50:09,704
you need to change things up. It should

1456
00:50:09,704 --> 00:50:10,764
not feel that way.

1457
00:50:11,224 --> 00:50:13,464
Marilyn, Jennifer, this was so wonderful. I'm I'm

1458
00:50:13,464 --> 00:50:15,144
glad we did this. Thanks for stopping by.

1459
00:50:15,144 --> 00:50:15,690
I love it.

1460
00:50:16,569 --> 00:50:18,730
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1461
00:50:18,730 --> 00:50:20,489
are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1462
00:50:20,489 --> 00:50:22,170
and you're looking for a recovery group full

1463
00:50:22,170 --> 00:50:25,289
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1464
00:50:25,289 --> 00:50:28,170
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1465
00:50:28,170 --> 00:50:29,469
using four day retreats,

1466
00:50:29,825 --> 00:50:32,565
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1467
00:50:32,625 --> 00:50:34,785
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1468
00:50:34,785 --> 00:50:36,704
save your marriage, go to our website and

1469
00:50:36,704 --> 00:50:37,684
fill out our application.

1470
00:50:37,985 --> 00:50:40,385
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1471
00:50:40,385 --> 00:50:42,065
along to a friend in recovery who would

1472
00:50:42,065 --> 00:50:43,985
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1473
00:50:43,985 --> 00:50:45,809
get this information out to as many high

1474
00:50:45,809 --> 00:50:47,969
achievers as possible, and I can't do it

1475
00:50:47,969 --> 00:50:48,949
without your help.