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Complex shame versus shame. What’s the difference?

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Because you can’t see yourself in the moment.

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Yeah. Got you. You cannot see yourself in

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the moment. So at least when somebody comes

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back down

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from

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that shame cycle, they can step back and

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they can go, okay. I failed here. I

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didn’t do well here. I didn’t speak well

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to the situation.

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You look good and you really smell fresh

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in front of a counselor.

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But as soon as that that session is

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over in the car, you’re berating,

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you’re being super negative,

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everything is the other person’s fault.

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You cannot see yourself. You do not have

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a solid sense of yourself.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles

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specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

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I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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more information about joining our group or attending

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our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Imagine being six months into recovery, a year

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into recovery, two years into recovery, and have

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something holding you back that you’re unaware of.

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That’s exactly what we’re gonna be talking about

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in this episode.

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Shirley, this is gonna be a cool conversation

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around complex shame. First off, I’ve never even

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heard of it. I have an idea of

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probably where we’re gonna go with it because

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of the other complex

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fill in the blanks that I’ve I have

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looked into. But this is an interesting one

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because I think it’s so applicable

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to this

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space, this audience and what these men are

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really dealing with both pre and post

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discovery. So I don’t know if we’ll probably

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talk about the complexities

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separately, I guess, because they are kind of

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different levels. But I think where I would

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love to start is you defining

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complex shame for the audience so they understand

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what this podcast and this discussion is gonna

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be about. Okay. So imagine that you are

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dealing with anything else that has

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become far more complicated than what it actually

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should be. Right? So we have complex PTSD

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where we can’t get out of the house.

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Right? Or we’re afraid of spiders or we’re

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afraid to get on a on a airplane.

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Right? It’s that intensity. We can’t even use

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the skills that we have to walk through

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those opportunities.

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So now you’re looking at complex shame

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where you’re actually in year two, you’re in

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year three, and you can’t get past yourself.

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So instead of seeing shame as something healthy,

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hey,

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I’m not the center of the universe.

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I

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am not the king. I am not the

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emperor.

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You are walking around with no clothes on,

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and you actually think that everything is fine

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when actually it’s complicated,

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Shane.

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The moment somebody,

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you get hit with a trigger,

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you can’t even get past it. You’re so

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stuck in it, first of all. There clearly

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must be something wrong with me. So then

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the defensiveness shows up. Now in normal, Shane,

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in the shame cycle,

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defensiveness shows up. Right? But then there becomes

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this attack and this

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inability

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to regulate.

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Not just in the moment, but when you

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bring it back down,

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you do not have a solid sense of

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self. You go back into either the narcissistic

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side of, hey. This is not my problem.

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Or you go into the aggressive side where

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you become extremely

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physically or verbally abusive. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah.

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Exactly. So and so just to clarify

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up a notch. And then so clarify the

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difference. So how would you know that you’re

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experiencing complex shame versus shame? What’s the difference?

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Because you can’t see yourself in the moment.

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Yeah. Gotcha. You cannot see yourself in the

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moment. So at least when somebody comes back

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down

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from

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that shame cycle, they can step back and

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they can go, okay. I failed here.

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I didn’t do well here. I didn’t speak

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well

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to the situation.

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You look good and you really smell fresh

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in front of a counselor. But as soon

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as that that session is over in the

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car, you’re berating,

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you’re being super negative,

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everything is the other person’s fault.

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You cannot see yourself. You do not have

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a solid sense of yourself. No. I I

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and I think that’s a great kinda going

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back to the analogies that you talked about

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around just kinda like phobias and other complexes

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that people have, and I think you did

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a great job there. I can’t see it.

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And all the other things, I can see

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where I failed my employees. It’s like, Ah,

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shoot. I shouldn’t have said that. Right? So

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there’s a ton of awareness.

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So it’s not complex. I’m very much aware

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of what I said that was inappropriate. I’m

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very much aware of the work I’m gonna

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have to do to repair that relationship. The

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complex piece is,

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I am in it, and I don’t know

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I’m experiencing shame because I’ve instantly gone to

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defense attack, shut down. How do I get

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out of this conversation?

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This lady is crazy. It’s this whirlwind of

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a lot of other things besides the shame.

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Is that is that an accurate Absolutely. Absolutely.

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You are. It’s not me. It’s 100%

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them. And I can name the state, the

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time, and the date in which it’s still

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not me.

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Right?

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But yet you don’t feel like you’re moving

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forward in your relationship. Right. Well, of course,

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you’re not gonna feel comfortable moving in your

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relationship. You’re still pointing the finger at the

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other person Mhmm. Instead of looking at yourself.

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Yeah. So there’s no solid sense of self.

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You’re not grounded,

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and you cannot stay in a healthy conversation

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for endurance. So I call it meaningful endurance.

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Mhmm. You can’t stay in the conversation

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to get a place of kind of clarity

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or understanding of this is what I own.

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This is what you own. Okay. So let’s

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sit in this space and decide how do

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we move forward. How do we reconcile our

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stories? There is no reconciling the story. Yeah.

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That makes sense. That wrong. I have no

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idea why you decided to embarrass me in

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front of that counselor,

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in front of so and so. This is

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all your fault. And

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over time, if complicated shame isn’t handled, ultimately,

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at some point, there’s some abuse.

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It goes from verbal to physical. Mhmm.

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So I’ll give you an example. Literally, just

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yesterday, one of my clients,

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he’s separated from his wife right now. He

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came home and in front of her friend,

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she said, Oh, you just get to walk

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in now. Well, the irony is for the

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months, last four or five months, he just

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walks in. But because her friend was over,

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she was trying to make it look like

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she has some boundaries, right? You know, because

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these poor ladies are very embarrassed by being

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cheated on and staying. I mean, it’s culturally

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extremely humiliating. So And he has shame. That’s

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the thing too. You’re sitting with shame as

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well. Right. Correct. Correct. So he came in

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and he lost it. But again, in that

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moment, it was not recognized as shame. It

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was recognized as her acting inappropriately

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towards him. Is this an example of complex

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shame?

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Yes. Because the shame

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I use shame to protect myself

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even though you don’t realize Gotcha. Gotcha. You’re

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using it. It becomes a defense mechanism.

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Right? So defend attack. Who’s the bad guy

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in the room?

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Well, it’s not me. I’m trying to protect

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myself. You came at me with a slight

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remark

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instead of recognizing I’m lucky to be able

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to come home, period.

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Oh. No. We don’t see that. I love

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that. Let me fix this for you. I’m

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not the one with the problem.

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You are. Yeah. I love that. So it’s

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a in a way, you know, because I

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do this. I take shame and I convert

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it so quickly into anger or something that

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I’m more comfortable with usually something aggressive

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and that would be the complex pieces.

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Now I’m even unaware that I’m even feeling

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shame because I have demonized her and made

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her the problem, which puts me in a

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in a very strategically advantageous place for me

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to be in because I’m good at being

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angry. I’m very good at being angry. Right?

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Being angry, being the victim.

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And I know you may be saying, well,

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Shirley, that sounds like the average addict that’s

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working through

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addiction.

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Yes.

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Early.

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We can see early in that first

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six, eight months. Right? You’ve been through intensive.

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You’re now doing your own individual work. And

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this is where it gets a little quirky

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because usually the addict has been doing a

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lot of work for themselves.

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Right? Yes. And then the partner comes along.

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So the first thing that happens is, you

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know, the addict thinks that they’re the ones

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that’s the all knowing, and I’m now gonna

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educate my wife on how she should be

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kind to me because now I’ve done all

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the work, when actually you’re just starting. You

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just got another pain point called your wife

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or your partner Yeah. That’s saying, yeah. But

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you’re not all that dude. Yeah. Let me

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tell you why. Because trigger this, trigger that,

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trigger the other, and then bam. Right? So

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that’s kind of accepted

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that you would have this I couldn’t realize

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that that was Shane. Sure. But now you’re

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in, you know,

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full year, year and a half.

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I don’t care if the wife is just

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now coming on board. Imagine how much more

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you should be more stable Yeah. More grounded.

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In oh, I understand this process. I know

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the harm that I’ve done to my partner.

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Right?

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And you can recognize it when they begin

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to escalate and become dysfunctional.

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That your system at some point will realize

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yes, and then you go, oh, yeah. But,

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yeah, I can own this, I can own

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this, and I can own this.

255
00:09:14,254 –> 00:09:16,414
If you’re still dealing with that stuff at

256
00:09:16,414 –> 00:09:18,334
a year and a half, yeah, you might

257
00:09:18,334 –> 00:09:20,495
have some complicated shame. Because now you don’t

258
00:09:20,495 –> 00:09:22,320
wanna own anything. This is not my issue.

259
00:09:22,480 –> 00:09:24,000
I wouldn’t have sex addiction in the first

260
00:09:24,000 –> 00:09:26,480
place if you would have been accommodating. Right.

261
00:09:26,480 –> 00:09:28,980
Now you’ve reverted back to childhood. Mhmm.

262
00:09:29,279 –> 00:09:31,519
Mhmm. Mhmm. You said something that I wanted

263
00:09:31,519 –> 00:09:33,919
to speak on before we glossed over it.

264
00:09:33,919 –> 00:09:34,660
You mentioned

265
00:09:35,214 –> 00:09:37,615
shame and I really liked it, right? Shame

266
00:09:37,615 –> 00:09:38,115
being

267
00:09:38,495 –> 00:09:41,814
an emotion. No different than sadness, boredom, loneliness,

268
00:09:41,814 –> 00:09:44,274
you know, it’s just one more of the

269
00:09:44,735 –> 00:09:47,455
hundreds and thousands of types of emotions that

270
00:09:47,455 –> 00:09:49,329
we feel. And so, I wanted to put

271
00:09:49,329 –> 00:09:50,690
a pin in that because I think that’s

272
00:09:50,690 –> 00:09:52,149
worth everyone noting.

273
00:09:52,690 –> 00:09:54,789
If you don’t wanna feel shame,

274
00:09:55,250 –> 00:09:56,610
you know, it’d be like not wanting to

275
00:09:56,610 –> 00:09:58,209
be bored. You know, my clients- Right. My

276
00:09:58,209 –> 00:10:00,449
clients hate being bored. That’s a lot of

277
00:10:00,449 –> 00:10:03,125
their triggers is actually they don’t wanna be

278
00:10:03,125 –> 00:10:05,845
boring because they’ve associated boring with being with

279
00:10:05,845 –> 00:10:08,644
a boring life. You know, my life sucks.

280
00:10:08,644 –> 00:10:10,804
I Oh my gosh, I’m sitting here. Everyone

281
00:10:10,804 –> 00:10:13,045
else is having fun but me. And so

282
00:10:13,045 –> 00:10:14,264
boredom has become

283
00:10:14,629 –> 00:10:15,990
a bad thing. Whereas

284
00:10:16,389 –> 00:10:18,230
which is kinda funny because, you know, boredom,

285
00:10:18,230 –> 00:10:20,149
what’s wrong with being bored? Isn’t it just

286
00:10:20,149 –> 00:10:22,629
another feeling? So just speak to that real

287
00:10:22,629 –> 00:10:25,289
quick. So how do we make friends with

288
00:10:25,750 –> 00:10:28,014
shame? Because, you know, it’s all emotions are

289
00:10:28,014 –> 00:10:29,695
good. None of them are bad. They’re all

290
00:10:29,695 –> 00:10:31,455
trying to help us. But how do you

291
00:10:31,455 –> 00:10:34,254
make friends with an emotion that’s kind of

292
00:10:34,254 –> 00:10:36,495
telling you you’re a bad person? Because I

293
00:10:36,495 –> 00:10:38,335
think that’s the hard part about this one.

294
00:10:38,335 –> 00:10:41,029
Right. It’s almost like I consider, like, a

295
00:10:41,029 –> 00:10:42,870
coat you put on and you just wear

296
00:10:42,870 –> 00:10:45,429
it. This is your thing. Shame is your

297
00:10:45,429 –> 00:10:47,830
thing. But I think at some point, you

298
00:10:47,830 –> 00:10:48,730
really do need

299
00:10:49,910 –> 00:10:51,450
you really do need to recognize

300
00:10:52,470 –> 00:10:54,815
that you’re in a place of shame, that

301
00:10:54,815 –> 00:10:57,054
you are defining who you are even in

302
00:10:57,054 –> 00:10:58,115
in a way that’s

303
00:10:58,495 –> 00:10:59,875
maybe on the side

304
00:11:00,254 –> 00:11:01,235
on the sidelines,

305
00:11:02,014 –> 00:11:05,054
but it actually is something that you’re offended

306
00:11:05,054 –> 00:11:07,295
by. Mhmm. Instead of, I think when we

307
00:11:07,295 –> 00:11:08,355
began the conversation,

308
00:11:09,029 –> 00:11:11,110
you are not the universe. Mhmm. You are

309
00:11:11,110 –> 00:11:11,929
not the captain.

310
00:11:12,470 –> 00:11:14,949
You’re not even the co captain. Right? Because

311
00:11:14,949 –> 00:11:17,370
then that gives you the ability to recognize

312
00:11:17,429 –> 00:11:18,570
I can mess up,

313
00:11:18,949 –> 00:11:19,929
I can recover,

314
00:11:20,629 –> 00:11:23,204
I can reconcile with my partner. I don’t

315
00:11:23,204 –> 00:11:25,044
have to be the all knowing and the

316
00:11:25,044 –> 00:11:27,365
all it. I think when we put on

317
00:11:27,365 –> 00:11:28,424
our entitlement

318
00:11:28,884 –> 00:11:30,824
Mhmm. Elitist type of hat,

319
00:11:31,125 –> 00:11:32,664
we think we are above

320
00:11:33,365 –> 00:11:37,065
shame. Mhmm. So then I can’t embrace it

321
00:11:37,320 –> 00:11:39,259
as something that is another emotion

322
00:11:39,639 –> 00:11:41,639
that I can work through, that I can

323
00:11:41,639 –> 00:11:43,320
then come back. What I tell for me

324
00:11:43,320 –> 00:11:45,799
to have my couples recovery. What does your

325
00:11:45,799 –> 00:11:48,600
recovery look like? My recovery says, hey. I’m

326
00:11:48,600 –> 00:11:50,519
gonna take a time out because I’m about

327
00:11:50,519 –> 00:11:51,740
to go down places

328
00:11:52,134 –> 00:11:54,694
and roads that will lead me to sleeping

329
00:11:54,694 –> 00:11:56,694
on the couch. Mhmm. Okay? So what I’m

330
00:11:56,694 –> 00:11:58,774
gonna do is I’m gonna start thinking about

331
00:11:58,774 –> 00:11:59,834
what did I contribute?

332
00:12:00,615 –> 00:12:01,674
What did I contribute?

333
00:12:02,054 –> 00:12:04,294
If you can’t have that level of self

334
00:12:04,294 –> 00:12:05,514
awareness Mhmm.

335
00:12:06,089 –> 00:12:08,649
You’re going to struggle with shame. Mhmm. Because

336
00:12:08,649 –> 00:12:10,829
what you define yourself as

337
00:12:11,209 –> 00:12:11,709
someone

338
00:12:12,089 –> 00:12:14,429
that cannot do wrong. Mhmm.

339
00:12:14,889 –> 00:12:17,230
Now we brought this up a little bit.

340
00:12:17,850 –> 00:12:19,389
Imagine that I’m at a job

341
00:12:19,924 –> 00:12:22,345
where I’m the best thing since sliced bread.

342
00:12:22,565 –> 00:12:23,704
I’m the top performer.

343
00:12:24,245 –> 00:12:26,985
I can do this, that, the other. Everybody

344
00:12:27,125 –> 00:12:29,684
envies how much money I have, how many

345
00:12:29,684 –> 00:12:32,565
acquisitions I’ve done. So you can do no

346
00:12:32,565 –> 00:12:35,370
evil. Mhmm. So you work in an element

347
00:12:35,370 –> 00:12:36,009
that says

348
00:12:36,490 –> 00:12:38,569
Mhmm. I’m the all it. There’s no way.

349
00:12:38,569 –> 00:12:40,189
I’m not gonna sit here with Shane.

350
00:12:40,889 –> 00:12:43,850
Mhmm. That’s disintegrating. That’s gonna blow up my

351
00:12:43,850 –> 00:12:46,029
profile. That’s gonna blow up my resume.

352
00:12:46,409 –> 00:12:49,115
I’m fine at work. I’m just not fine

353
00:12:49,115 –> 00:12:51,835
with her. Yeah. It’s just the ladies and

354
00:12:51,835 –> 00:12:53,274
it’s just the ladies and the Christians that

355
00:12:53,274 –> 00:12:55,115
have a problem with this. Outside of that,

356
00:12:55,115 –> 00:12:56,735
I’m good. Right? Yeah. Yes. Absolutely.

357
00:12:57,514 –> 00:12:59,355
I think I think you you nailed it

358
00:12:59,355 –> 00:13:01,580
there, Shirley. Cause I mean, come on. Everybody’s

359
00:13:01,580 –> 00:13:03,179
been listening to my podcast. They know I’m

360
00:13:03,179 –> 00:13:04,779
not above any of this. I’m right there

361
00:13:04,779 –> 00:13:06,379
in it with all y’all. The thing that

362
00:13:06,379 –> 00:13:08,459
was the hardest for me, Shirley, and you

363
00:13:08,459 –> 00:13:10,559
nailed it so much was the incongruence.

364
00:13:11,100 –> 00:13:13,980
I spend and spent all of my time,

365
00:13:13,980 –> 00:13:15,839
my whole life from when I was

366
00:13:16,325 –> 00:13:18,485
felt rejected at like eight or nine, my

367
00:13:18,485 –> 00:13:19,544
whole life was

368
00:13:20,085 –> 00:13:22,085
how do I become the guy that no

369
00:13:22,085 –> 00:13:24,964
one rejects? And so that was my identity

370
00:13:24,964 –> 00:13:28,184
is I don’t have problems. I’m above problems.

371
00:13:28,259 –> 00:13:30,500
I have this. I have that. Oh, your

372
00:13:30,500 –> 00:13:32,259
compassion. I don’t need that. Go give it

373
00:13:32,259 –> 00:13:34,259
to somebody else who needs it. Right? So

374
00:13:34,259 –> 00:13:36,360
then I get into this point where

375
00:13:37,460 –> 00:13:39,940
I’m being accused of something that I can’t

376
00:13:39,940 –> 00:13:41,620
get around. Right? And that’s the challenge I

377
00:13:41,620 –> 00:13:43,080
think with this is I can’t

378
00:13:44,054 –> 00:13:46,634
un have an affair. I can’t un have

379
00:13:46,855 –> 00:13:49,335
slept with a prostitute. There’s no real way

380
00:13:49,335 –> 00:13:51,735
to spin this. No. And so I think

381
00:13:51,735 –> 00:13:53,654
that’s why You got a good deal. Like,

382
00:13:53,654 –> 00:13:55,115
they go into shame because

383
00:13:55,759 –> 00:13:58,080
there’s no way to manipulate the situation. And

384
00:13:58,080 –> 00:14:00,480
it’s just so uncomfortable for me because for

385
00:14:00,480 –> 00:14:03,460
the first time ever, I’m having to basically

386
00:14:03,759 –> 00:14:05,220
admit wrong. And

387
00:14:05,679 –> 00:14:08,480
as narcissistic and grandiose as that sounds, I

388
00:14:08,480 –> 00:14:10,100
spend my whole life defending

389
00:14:10,924 –> 00:14:12,605
being wrong. And so I think you nailed

390
00:14:12,605 –> 00:14:14,445
it there so well. It’s it’s the So

391
00:14:14,445 –> 00:14:16,445
it’s kinda wearing the coat. Right? You may

392
00:14:16,445 –> 00:14:18,125
have to change the colors of it. But

393
00:14:18,125 –> 00:14:20,284
if I wear that, you can’t come back

394
00:14:20,284 –> 00:14:22,304
at me with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely

395
00:14:22,445 –> 00:14:22,945
right.

396
00:14:23,324 –> 00:14:25,750
I know I messed that up. I understand

397
00:14:25,750 –> 00:14:26,649
why you’re upset.

398
00:14:27,029 –> 00:14:28,389
What do you need me to do right

399
00:14:28,389 –> 00:14:29,129
now? Mhmm.

400
00:14:29,830 –> 00:14:32,549
I’m willing to do the work. Mhmm. Right?

401
00:14:32,549 –> 00:14:34,870
See, by year, year and a half, you’ve

402
00:14:34,870 –> 00:14:37,210
done the work. I’ve got this program,

403
00:14:37,669 –> 00:14:39,995
the sex addiction program down pat. I I

404
00:14:39,995 –> 00:14:41,754
know what I need to do. You show

405
00:14:41,754 –> 00:14:42,574
up to sessions.

406
00:14:43,115 –> 00:14:44,574
You’re you’re even in groups

407
00:14:44,875 –> 00:14:45,375
contributing.

408
00:14:45,995 –> 00:14:46,495
Amazing.

409
00:14:46,954 –> 00:14:49,034
And still walking out with shame. Mhmm. Yeah.

410
00:14:49,034 –> 00:14:51,754
Correct. Correct. Yeah. Absolutely. So talk to us

411
00:14:51,754 –> 00:14:54,315
about let’s go because, again, shame’s a huge

412
00:14:54,315 –> 00:14:56,730
thing. I love, you know, I think all

413
00:14:56,730 –> 00:14:58,750
my guys are dealing with it. I think

414
00:14:59,129 –> 00:15:01,209
half of them don’t know how much of

415
00:15:01,209 –> 00:15:03,490
it they’re dealing with because they are finding

416
00:15:03,490 –> 00:15:06,250
a way to mask it, ignore it, not

417
00:15:06,250 –> 00:15:08,169
pay attention to it. The other half have

418
00:15:08,169 –> 00:15:09,850
owned it and I love that because that

419
00:15:09,850 –> 00:15:11,174
was not me. It took me

420
00:15:12,134 –> 00:15:14,214
about a year to really own how much

421
00:15:14,214 –> 00:15:14,695
shame I was sitting in and how much

422
00:15:14,695 –> 00:15:16,375
shame I’ve really been sitting in my whole

423
00:15:16,375 –> 00:15:18,054
life. And so I love when the guys

424
00:15:18,054 –> 00:15:19,975
own it. But I think every single guy

425
00:15:19,975 –> 00:15:21,355
listening to this is wondering,

426
00:15:21,975 –> 00:15:23,720
Now, what do I do though? How do

427
00:15:23,720 –> 00:15:25,320
I deal with this? But maybe before we

428
00:15:25,320 –> 00:15:27,639
get into managing this, maybe we speak to

429
00:15:27,639 –> 00:15:29,320
that last bit that I just said, Shirley,

430
00:15:29,320 –> 00:15:31,660
around why can some of the guys recognize

431
00:15:31,720 –> 00:15:33,259
their shame and others can’t?

432
00:15:33,639 –> 00:15:35,320
I’ve actually found that some of this has

433
00:15:35,320 –> 00:15:36,300
to do with personality.

434
00:15:36,804 –> 00:15:38,884
Mhmm. The level of ego strength that an

435
00:15:38,884 –> 00:15:40,184
individual has,

436
00:15:40,485 –> 00:15:41,705
how they were raised,

437
00:15:42,245 –> 00:15:44,565
what was their trauma or pain point. Many

438
00:15:44,565 –> 00:15:47,125
of us don’t wanna even recognize that we

439
00:15:47,125 –> 00:15:50,565
had childhood trauma or we are living in

440
00:15:50,565 –> 00:15:53,460
trauma right now. And so the only way

441
00:15:53,460 –> 00:15:54,440
we can live

442
00:15:55,379 –> 00:15:56,120
is to

443
00:15:56,500 –> 00:15:59,080
push away the shame part because we’re constantly

444
00:15:59,700 –> 00:16:02,100
forced with some type of toxic shame, right,

445
00:16:02,100 –> 00:16:03,240
that we legitimately

446
00:16:03,620 –> 00:16:05,804
are living with in this world. And so

447
00:16:05,804 –> 00:16:08,465
then that person can struggle because their personality

448
00:16:09,245 –> 00:16:10,304
is less likely

449
00:16:10,684 –> 00:16:12,924
to just release it. Mhmm. And I love

450
00:16:12,924 –> 00:16:15,024
those people because I’m not one of them.

451
00:16:15,245 –> 00:16:17,485
I have to work that stuff out. Yes.

452
00:16:17,485 –> 00:16:19,325
I need to know what happened. Why did

453
00:16:19,325 –> 00:16:20,946
I do it? And I think that that’s

454
00:16:20,946 –> 00:16:21,373
the

455
00:16:21,799 –> 00:16:23,879
connecting with your trauma, understanding that it has

456
00:16:23,879 –> 00:16:26,279
a trigger to it. Mhmm. Instead, what happens

457
00:16:26,279 –> 00:16:28,139
is we connect with the trauma.

458
00:16:28,519 –> 00:16:30,759
We say that that’s actually not ours because,

459
00:16:30,759 –> 00:16:32,360
you know, I pulled myself up by my

460
00:16:32,360 –> 00:16:32,860
bootstraps.

461
00:16:33,524 –> 00:16:35,764
So trauma is not gonna that trauma is

462
00:16:35,764 –> 00:16:37,845
not gonna do anything for me. So whatever

463
00:16:37,845 –> 00:16:40,084
I’m feeling right now that there’s something wrong

464
00:16:40,084 –> 00:16:42,804
with me can’t be about me. Yeah. So

465
00:16:42,804 –> 00:16:45,125
you’ve got the I call it bipolar on

466
00:16:45,125 –> 00:16:45,865
both ends

467
00:16:46,279 –> 00:16:48,279
where they’re trying to figure out how do

468
00:16:48,279 –> 00:16:50,620
I now become more empowered because maybe I’ve

469
00:16:50,679 –> 00:16:52,840
placed my spouse on a pedestal. So it’s

470
00:16:52,840 –> 00:16:53,899
easier for me

471
00:16:54,440 –> 00:16:56,220
to recognize my shame cycle.

472
00:16:56,840 –> 00:16:59,394
But what if they put you, the addict,

473
00:16:59,394 –> 00:17:00,215
on the pedestal,

474
00:17:00,675 –> 00:17:03,254
and so you’ve got a spouse that’s accommodating

475
00:17:03,394 –> 00:17:05,974
it? So who’s challenging it? Who’s challenging

476
00:17:06,595 –> 00:17:07,255
the shame?

477
00:17:07,555 –> 00:17:09,015
Mhmm. It’s not you,

478
00:17:09,634 –> 00:17:12,160
but I do believe it’s personality driven. Yeah.

479
00:17:12,160 –> 00:17:13,599
I agree. To some degree. I I I

480
00:17:13,599 –> 00:17:15,920
don’t wanna automatically say, well, you know, year

481
00:17:15,920 –> 00:17:17,440
and a half from now, two years, you

482
00:17:17,440 –> 00:17:19,200
should be completely out of that. That’s just

483
00:17:19,200 –> 00:17:20,900
like complicated grief. Right?

484
00:17:21,440 –> 00:17:24,565
Complicated grief, you got ninety days. Mhmm. You

485
00:17:24,565 –> 00:17:26,164
go back to work and you make everything

486
00:17:26,164 –> 00:17:29,125
fine. Okay. Good. Nice talk. Well, that’s not

487
00:17:29,125 –> 00:17:31,125
the case. Yeah. Because you’re grieving And I

488
00:17:31,125 –> 00:17:33,065
agree with you because I think for me,

489
00:17:33,684 –> 00:17:36,359
shame was unacceptable. I wasn’t gonna feel it.

490
00:17:36,519 –> 00:17:38,539
And so I think in my first year

491
00:17:38,839 –> 00:17:41,559
of recovery, I didn’t really make that much

492
00:17:41,559 –> 00:17:42,700
progress because

493
00:17:43,400 –> 00:17:45,799
I had a zero tolerance for shame. I

494
00:17:45,799 –> 00:17:47,400
wasn’t gonna feel it. I wasn’t gonna allow

495
00:17:47,400 –> 00:17:49,285
or allow it to be around me. That

496
00:17:49,285 –> 00:17:50,644
was for all the other guys in the

497
00:17:50,644 –> 00:17:52,644
group, not me. I’m gonna beat this thing

498
00:17:52,644 –> 00:17:55,045
and walk out of here, and they won’t.

499
00:17:55,045 –> 00:17:57,444
And so, yeah, it was just ultimately, I’m

500
00:17:57,444 –> 00:18:00,244
not gonna have shame enter my life. And

501
00:18:00,244 –> 00:18:01,765
then all of a sudden, it started creeping

502
00:18:01,765 –> 00:18:04,244
in because through recovery, I started becoming more

503
00:18:04,244 –> 00:18:05,065
human again,

504
00:18:05,419 –> 00:18:07,279
and my humanity started

505
00:18:07,660 –> 00:18:09,819
making me feel feelings. Year two was really

506
00:18:09,819 –> 00:18:11,579
hard on me because I’m feeling all this

507
00:18:11,579 –> 00:18:13,579
stuff that I was avoiding feelings. Yeah. Thank

508
00:18:13,579 –> 00:18:14,940
you for that. I think that’s the point

509
00:18:14,940 –> 00:18:16,619
is yeah. And I’m not proud of that.

510
00:18:16,619 –> 00:18:17,500
I think my trauma

511
00:18:18,274 –> 00:18:20,355
I was already at my limit, and so

512
00:18:20,355 –> 00:18:22,434
I didn’t want any I couldn’t handle another

513
00:18:22,434 –> 00:18:24,194
problem. And I think that was the challenge

514
00:18:24,194 –> 00:18:25,875
was now I was in a position where

515
00:18:25,875 –> 00:18:27,634
I needed to accept that this was a

516
00:18:27,634 –> 00:18:29,734
very big problem that needed to be addressed.

517
00:18:29,954 –> 00:18:31,954
But I was so clinging to the idea

518
00:18:31,954 –> 00:18:33,494
that I can’t have another problem,

519
00:18:33,919 –> 00:18:36,720
that I wouldn’t really allow this whole process

520
00:18:36,720 –> 00:18:38,720
to do its thing. Right? No. I’m about

521
00:18:38,720 –> 00:18:40,880
to say something really messy. I know the

522
00:18:40,880 –> 00:18:42,419
12 steps is fantastic,

523
00:18:42,960 –> 00:18:44,319
but you can go through all the 12

524
00:18:44,319 –> 00:18:46,240
steps and still be just as broken as

525
00:18:46,240 –> 00:18:48,480
you were when you started. 100%. 100%. Because

526
00:18:49,440 –> 00:18:51,034
see, see, that’s what I’ve said. That’s the

527
00:18:51,335 –> 00:18:53,194
for me, I feel like that’s the foundation.

528
00:18:53,255 –> 00:18:54,794
That’s how you start this process.

529
00:18:55,335 –> 00:18:57,095
So like I said before, a year and

530
00:18:57,095 –> 00:18:58,315
a half, two years later,

531
00:18:58,615 –> 00:18:59,835
you’re still struggling

532
00:19:00,214 –> 00:19:02,134
with how you can hear that your wife

533
00:19:02,134 –> 00:19:04,420
is triggered by the truck that you were

534
00:19:04,420 –> 00:19:07,380
in that you slept with 18 prostitutes, and

535
00:19:07,380 –> 00:19:08,820
she has to get in it because her

536
00:19:08,820 –> 00:19:11,140
car broke down. Mhmm. And you want to

537
00:19:11,140 –> 00:19:12,680
flip the hay out.

538
00:19:13,299 –> 00:19:15,860
Right? Right then. Mhmm. And why are you

539
00:19:15,860 –> 00:19:19,154
so upset? Mhmm. Okay. I just think

540
00:19:19,535 –> 00:19:20,755
that that deflection

541
00:19:21,295 –> 00:19:24,174
Mhmm. Saves you from looking at yourself. Yeah.

542
00:19:24,174 –> 00:19:26,174
Sure. Absolutely. You’re not solid. Yeah. It’s not

543
00:19:26,174 –> 00:19:27,775
about the truck. It’s not about her. I

544
00:19:27,775 –> 00:19:30,095
mean, it’s just I don’t wanna be the

545
00:19:30,095 –> 00:19:32,095
guy who cheated on you as many times

546
00:19:32,095 –> 00:19:33,430
as I did. That’s really what it was.

547
00:19:33,430 –> 00:19:34,970
I didn’t wanna face the facts

548
00:19:35,590 –> 00:19:37,289
that my disclosure was

549
00:19:37,830 –> 00:19:40,309
actually my resume. That was truly how I

550
00:19:40,309 –> 00:19:42,230
have chosen to spend my time and money.

551
00:19:42,230 –> 00:19:45,509
Absolutely. So let’s get into the management of

552
00:19:45,509 –> 00:19:47,684
this. What do we do? I have some

553
00:19:47,684 –> 00:19:49,765
things that I kind of did. A lot

554
00:19:49,765 –> 00:19:51,365
of mine was giving the shame back to

555
00:19:51,365 –> 00:19:53,865
the people who deserved it, including the adult

556
00:19:54,085 –> 00:19:56,565
entertainment industry. Right? You know, porn should have

557
00:19:56,565 –> 00:19:58,964
never been created. It should never be legalized.

558
00:19:58,964 –> 00:20:01,349
Should never been as accessible. Right? So, you

559
00:20:01,349 –> 00:20:02,789
know, some of this is just giving the

560
00:20:02,789 –> 00:20:05,190
shame back to the people who deserve it.

561
00:20:05,190 –> 00:20:06,710
But what else can we do? I mean,

562
00:20:06,710 –> 00:20:07,849
how else do we manage

563
00:20:08,470 –> 00:20:10,109
this? Because I’ll tell you, Shirley, it’s overwhelming.

564
00:20:10,109 –> 00:20:12,470
I mean, getting called It is. These names

565
00:20:12,470 –> 00:20:14,309
that you’re being called, being looked at by

566
00:20:14,309 –> 00:20:16,525
your mother-in-law and father-in-law and the way they’re

567
00:20:16,525 –> 00:20:18,684
looking at you. If you publicly announce this

568
00:20:18,684 –> 00:20:20,704
like my wife and I did, being roasted,

569
00:20:21,244 –> 00:20:21,744
absolutely

570
00:20:22,204 –> 00:20:22,704
roasted

571
00:20:23,005 –> 00:20:25,484
by 80% of people telling my wife that

572
00:20:25,484 –> 00:20:27,404
she needs to leave me. All sort I

573
00:20:27,404 –> 00:20:29,940
mean, this is not a fun position to

574
00:20:29,940 –> 00:20:32,339
sit in because you know how society views

575
00:20:32,339 –> 00:20:33,879
it. And so you really can’t

576
00:20:34,259 –> 00:20:35,700
own it in the way that you could

577
00:20:35,700 –> 00:20:37,700
own a lot of things. So gosh dang

578
00:20:37,700 –> 00:20:38,980
it, Shirley. What do we do? I mean,

579
00:20:38,980 –> 00:20:40,980
it’s how do we uncomplex it? Because it’s

580
00:20:40,980 –> 00:20:43,859
complex. Well, right? The sex addiction is a

581
00:20:43,859 –> 00:20:44,359
relational

582
00:20:44,899 –> 00:20:45,399
disorder.

583
00:20:45,994 –> 00:20:46,654
It is.

584
00:20:47,115 –> 00:20:49,434
And putting a handle on it, I think

585
00:20:49,434 –> 00:20:50,575
you helped me

586
00:20:50,955 –> 00:20:53,115
even a moment ago when you said, hey.

587
00:20:53,115 –> 00:20:55,535
We’ve got this narcissism. We’ve got this entitlement

588
00:20:55,595 –> 00:20:58,075
stuff. As you began to feel your feelings,

589
00:20:58,075 –> 00:21:00,234
you also see that there are other areas

590
00:21:00,234 –> 00:21:02,629
in your life where you’re having these moments

591
00:21:02,950 –> 00:21:06,250
Mhmm. Where you’re not being nearly as successful.

592
00:21:06,549 –> 00:21:08,390
So let me say where I start. I

593
00:21:08,390 –> 00:21:09,210
start with

594
00:21:09,589 –> 00:21:12,390
intent versus impact. Mhmm. And that tends to

595
00:21:12,390 –> 00:21:12,890
get

596
00:21:13,515 –> 00:21:16,555
our attention because we often wanna say, well,

597
00:21:16,555 –> 00:21:17,535
I didn’t intend

598
00:21:17,994 –> 00:21:20,154
to fall into that woman’s vagina. I had

599
00:21:20,154 –> 00:21:21,214
I had no intention

600
00:21:21,755 –> 00:21:23,914
of sleeping with five or six people at

601
00:21:23,914 –> 00:21:25,934
one time. Almost like that manic

602
00:21:26,389 –> 00:21:29,029
moment that someone will have. Right? And so

603
00:21:29,029 –> 00:21:31,109
I say, you know, we have this intention

604
00:21:31,109 –> 00:21:33,669
thing, but the real question is, what is

605
00:21:33,669 –> 00:21:36,889
your impact? If you can own your impact,

606
00:21:37,509 –> 00:21:39,450
even if you’re writing a letter to yourself,

607
00:21:39,509 –> 00:21:42,184
this is the impact I had with just

608
00:21:42,184 –> 00:21:42,924
that moment.

609
00:21:43,465 –> 00:21:45,305
So maybe you’re not looking at all of

610
00:21:45,305 –> 00:21:47,384
your resume. But in that moment, you’re having

611
00:21:47,384 –> 00:21:49,805
an argument, something has triggered you.

612
00:21:50,184 –> 00:21:52,184
What is the impact of my words in

613
00:21:52,184 –> 00:21:52,924
that moment?

614
00:21:53,559 –> 00:21:55,160
So often, we wanna eat all of the

615
00:21:55,160 –> 00:21:56,839
elephant at one time because we wanna get

616
00:21:56,839 –> 00:22:00,039
over this. Right? But it’s each step, each

617
00:22:00,039 –> 00:22:00,539
time,

618
00:22:01,000 –> 00:22:02,220
you look at the impact.

619
00:22:03,000 –> 00:22:05,160
It gives you that moment, not the impact

620
00:22:05,160 –> 00:22:07,400
that your partner has on you. What is

621
00:22:07,400 –> 00:22:09,019
your impact? Mhmm.

622
00:22:09,454 –> 00:22:11,954
Right? Do you feel solid in the moment?

623
00:22:12,174 –> 00:22:14,095
Do you feel grounded in the moment? And

624
00:22:14,095 –> 00:22:16,035
if both of those answers are no,

625
00:22:16,575 –> 00:22:18,654
then you wanna sit with what was your

626
00:22:18,654 –> 00:22:19,154
contribution

627
00:22:19,535 –> 00:22:21,934
Yeah. In that moment. Going all the way

628
00:22:21,934 –> 00:22:23,234
back. Yes. Disclosure.

629
00:22:23,535 –> 00:22:24,035
Fantastic.

630
00:22:24,500 –> 00:22:24,900
But taking

631
00:22:25,619 –> 00:22:28,440
to some degree, we’ve already had that exercise

632
00:22:29,299 –> 00:22:31,859
of listening to her impact letter. Right? Doing

633
00:22:31,859 –> 00:22:33,960
the restitution. We know the things.

634
00:22:34,340 –> 00:22:36,279
Now could you start living it?

635
00:22:36,580 –> 00:22:37,080
Literally.

636
00:22:38,044 –> 00:22:40,525
So what is the impact of my words

637
00:22:40,525 –> 00:22:41,345
right now

638
00:22:41,644 –> 00:22:43,025
when she said,

639
00:22:43,724 –> 00:22:45,644
can you go get something to eat? And

640
00:22:45,644 –> 00:22:47,964
I said, no. Because I never had to

641
00:22:47,964 –> 00:22:49,565
do that with the other women I slept

642
00:22:49,565 –> 00:22:50,384
with. Mhmm.

643
00:22:50,910 –> 00:22:53,410
What is the impact in that moment?

644
00:22:54,190 –> 00:22:57,150
Confront that, and you might actually step into

645
00:22:57,150 –> 00:23:00,190
the a healthy space of shame. Do you

646
00:23:00,190 –> 00:23:02,509
see that? Yeah. It’s a because this one,

647
00:23:02,509 –> 00:23:05,125
my wife, luckily, I’ve been so blessed. My

648
00:23:05,125 –> 00:23:07,545
wife just She just did so much recovery

649
00:23:07,845 –> 00:23:09,765
work. It was awesome. And this is something

650
00:23:09,765 –> 00:23:11,285
that we discussed quite a bit. And that

651
00:23:11,285 –> 00:23:11,785
was

652
00:23:12,085 –> 00:23:13,605
exactly what you’re saying. Basically

653
00:23:14,085 –> 00:23:15,924
And surely, I’m glad you brought this up

654
00:23:15,924 –> 00:23:18,005
because this is a huge way that men

655
00:23:18,005 –> 00:23:20,649
can kind of untether all of this stuff

656
00:23:20,649 –> 00:23:22,809
and not go into a shame spiral. Because

657
00:23:22,809 –> 00:23:23,630
here’s the thing,

658
00:23:24,089 –> 00:23:27,690
when she says, I can’t believe you blank

659
00:23:27,690 –> 00:23:28,429
blank blank.

660
00:23:29,369 –> 00:23:31,849
What happens is if we’re focused on What

661
00:23:31,849 –> 00:23:34,125
I hear is, Oh, you you think they’re

662
00:23:34,125 –> 00:23:36,525
more attractive than us. You don’t value our

663
00:23:36,525 –> 00:23:38,305
marriage, our family, and the kids.

664
00:23:38,605 –> 00:23:40,445
You never loved me. Like, that’s what we

665
00:23:40,445 –> 00:23:42,125
hear even though she never said that. And

666
00:23:42,125 –> 00:23:43,644
I think you did a great job. We

667
00:23:43,644 –> 00:23:45,904
need to separate intent versus impact.

668
00:23:46,299 –> 00:23:48,700
Guys, here’s the truth. If she questioned your

669
00:23:48,700 –> 00:23:51,820
intent, she’d be gone. She’d be long gone.

670
00:23:51,820 –> 00:23:53,759
If she felt like you actually

671
00:23:54,220 –> 00:23:56,799
thought that she was a piece of trash

672
00:23:56,859 –> 00:23:58,940
that could be discarded, your wife would be

673
00:23:58,940 –> 00:24:00,700
gone. The only reason she’s here is she

674
00:24:00,700 –> 00:24:01,200
knows

675
00:24:01,555 –> 00:24:04,674
your intent was not to destroy this family

676
00:24:04,674 –> 00:24:07,075
and to ruin her self esteem. She knows

677
00:24:07,075 –> 00:24:08,455
that. That’s why she stayed.

678
00:24:08,835 –> 00:24:10,195
And so I think you brought up a

679
00:24:10,195 –> 00:24:12,035
great point, Shirley. If we’re gonna stay out

680
00:24:12,035 –> 00:24:13,974
of shame, what we need to understand is

681
00:24:14,400 –> 00:24:16,180
she’s allowed to be impacted

682
00:24:16,880 –> 00:24:19,759
in whatever way it’s impacted her. Yeah, you

683
00:24:19,759 –> 00:24:22,400
know. Whether I intended to destroy her body

684
00:24:22,400 –> 00:24:24,340
image or not, she is allowed

685
00:24:24,799 –> 00:24:26,740
to have her body image be destroyed.

686
00:24:27,134 –> 00:24:29,134
And you are also allowed to not be

687
00:24:29,134 –> 00:24:31,055
ashamed of doing it because it was not

688
00:24:31,055 –> 00:24:33,695
your intent. And you can also be sad

689
00:24:33,695 –> 00:24:35,375
for her because now she can’t go to

690
00:24:35,375 –> 00:24:38,174
the gym without comparing herself to a woman

691
00:24:38,174 –> 00:24:40,335
in the neck. Own that. Own that. That

692
00:24:40,335 –> 00:24:43,099
that the impact was she can’t do blah.

693
00:24:43,099 –> 00:24:45,659
Yeah. Right? Own it. Right? It’s that I

694
00:24:45,659 –> 00:24:48,059
keep talking about that solid sense of self

695
00:24:48,059 –> 00:24:50,619
where it’s almost like gridlock. You know what

696
00:24:50,619 –> 00:24:53,099
strengths you have. Mhmm. But you will not

697
00:24:53,099 –> 00:24:54,159
face those weaknesses

698
00:24:54,615 –> 00:24:55,115
at

699
00:24:55,575 –> 00:24:59,174
all. Mhmm. You are like, nope. Nope. Nope.

700
00:24:59,174 –> 00:25:00,855
But see over here, I got this and

701
00:25:00,855 –> 00:25:03,755
this. And, again, if you’ve got a job

702
00:25:04,295 –> 00:25:05,194
that feeds

703
00:25:05,494 –> 00:25:06,315
the strengths

704
00:25:06,694 –> 00:25:09,299
all the time, You will not confront your

705
00:25:09,299 –> 00:25:12,339
weaknesses. Mhmm. And so guess who is great

706
00:25:12,339 –> 00:25:14,200
at letting you know how weak you are?

707
00:25:14,339 –> 00:25:15,720
Your wife. Mhmm.

708
00:25:16,500 –> 00:25:17,000
Yes.

709
00:25:17,460 –> 00:25:19,079
Your partner. Yes.

710
00:25:19,539 –> 00:25:20,519
Right? So

711
00:25:21,085 –> 00:25:22,605
when I know what my strengths are and

712
00:25:22,605 –> 00:25:24,765
I know what my weaknesses are, you can’t

713
00:25:24,765 –> 00:25:26,065
take advantage of them.

714
00:25:26,605 –> 00:25:29,404
Yeah. Correct. Mhmm. Because I’m gonna look straight

715
00:25:29,404 –> 00:25:31,904
at them and go, you’re absolutely correct. Mhmm.

716
00:25:31,965 –> 00:25:34,369
I’m working on that or no. I don’t

717
00:25:34,369 –> 00:25:36,869
do that anymore. See, there’s this victory in

718
00:25:37,169 –> 00:25:39,409
small wins. We often talk about small wins.

719
00:25:39,409 –> 00:25:41,970
Right? So the small win is that, at

720
00:25:41,970 –> 00:25:44,549
least right now, I recognize I’m doing this.

721
00:25:45,089 –> 00:25:46,710
I have enough self awareness

722
00:25:47,765 –> 00:25:48,825
that that is a weakness

723
00:25:49,605 –> 00:25:50,825
in my food chain,

724
00:25:51,365 –> 00:25:53,225
and I need to do something about it.

725
00:25:53,445 –> 00:25:54,424
Even if it is,

726
00:25:54,725 –> 00:25:55,465
I acknowledge

727
00:25:56,085 –> 00:25:58,664
that you can’t go to the gym now

728
00:25:58,725 –> 00:26:02,025
because everybody knows my name there. Mhmm. So

729
00:26:02,329 –> 00:26:03,230
can you imagine

730
00:26:03,529 –> 00:26:05,549
how that shame cycle is broken?

731
00:26:06,170 –> 00:26:08,750
Because I’ve given it less power.

732
00:26:09,130 –> 00:26:10,750
I can’t seem to get people to understand.

733
00:26:11,210 –> 00:26:12,589
Take your power back.

734
00:26:12,890 –> 00:26:14,490
Right. No. I I agree with that. My

735
00:26:14,650 –> 00:26:16,615
And your wish to give it back. Your

736
00:26:16,615 –> 00:26:19,434
your hands are clean in the sense that

737
00:26:19,974 –> 00:26:20,875
you didn’t

738
00:26:21,255 –> 00:26:23,115
intend to do this tour.

739
00:26:23,575 –> 00:26:24,075
However,

740
00:26:24,855 –> 00:26:27,974
it still had the impact if you did

741
00:26:27,974 –> 00:26:30,294
or did not. And and that’s I think

742
00:26:30,294 –> 00:26:33,470
that’s the important delineation is you can say

743
00:26:33,470 –> 00:26:33,970
calmly,

744
00:26:34,509 –> 00:26:36,109
Yeah. What was going through my mind in

745
00:26:36,109 –> 00:26:37,649
that moment was not

746
00:26:38,029 –> 00:26:40,369
making my wife feel ugly, disregarded,

747
00:26:40,829 –> 00:26:41,329
small,

748
00:26:42,029 –> 00:26:44,669
uncared for, ugly, old, bad in bed. That

749
00:26:44,669 –> 00:26:45,809
was not my intent.

750
00:26:46,174 –> 00:26:47,615
I just wanted to have a novel sexual

751
00:26:47,615 –> 00:26:49,214
experience and so I decided that I had

752
00:26:49,214 –> 00:26:50,654
had too many drinks so I went and

753
00:26:50,654 –> 00:26:53,134
did it. Right? So again, your hands are

754
00:26:53,134 –> 00:26:56,174
clean of not intending to do that to

755
00:26:56,174 –> 00:26:58,974
her and your hands are not clean and

756
00:26:58,974 –> 00:26:59,954
the fact that

757
00:27:00,420 –> 00:27:02,660
the impact was made. And I think that’s

758
00:27:02,740 –> 00:27:04,680
it’s just it’s a mental exercise

759
00:27:04,980 –> 00:27:06,580
that has helped me a ton because I

760
00:27:06,580 –> 00:27:07,640
have to have to understand

761
00:27:08,340 –> 00:27:10,279
even though I didn’t intend to do this,

762
00:27:10,420 –> 00:27:13,059
the same exact impact whether I had intended

763
00:27:13,059 –> 00:27:15,434
to or not still happened. And I needed

764
00:27:15,434 –> 00:27:16,634
to make up my mind. Yeah. Am I

765
00:27:16,634 –> 00:27:18,154
gonna heal this damn marriage or am I

766
00:27:18,154 –> 00:27:19,214
gonna run away

767
00:27:19,595 –> 00:27:20,794
and have her deal with it on her

768
00:27:20,794 –> 00:27:22,315
own. Right? It’s just a decision you have.

769
00:27:22,315 –> 00:27:23,994
Well, I even tell people that say, okay,

770
00:27:23,994 –> 00:27:25,595
well, you know, I’m just gonna we’re just

771
00:27:25,595 –> 00:27:27,670
gonna get divorced. We’re gonna co parent, and

772
00:27:27,670 –> 00:27:29,029
I’m gonna find the love of my life

773
00:27:29,029 –> 00:27:31,369
next. How in the world did you think

774
00:27:31,829 –> 00:27:33,509
that that stuff is not gonna creep back

775
00:27:33,509 –> 00:27:34,570
at you later?

776
00:27:35,029 –> 00:27:37,589
Because you never learned the lesson. So we’re

777
00:27:37,589 –> 00:27:39,109
all out of this is the this is

778
00:27:39,109 –> 00:27:41,589
my third this is my third marriage. So

779
00:27:41,589 –> 00:27:42,470
trust me, if I

780
00:27:43,335 –> 00:27:45,095
it would be a fourth, a fifth, a

781
00:27:45,095 –> 00:27:47,174
sixth, and a seventh. So You gotta look

782
00:27:47,174 –> 00:27:49,734
right here. Right here. We do not have

783
00:27:49,734 –> 00:27:52,554
time for this foolishness, man. And that grounded

784
00:27:53,015 –> 00:27:55,755
learning how to ground yourself in your reality.

785
00:27:55,974 –> 00:27:58,450
Not anybody else’s. Not even your partner’s. The

786
00:27:58,450 –> 00:28:00,789
reality is this is my consequence.

787
00:28:01,169 –> 00:28:02,630
Mhmm. See, we want

788
00:28:03,329 –> 00:28:05,009
we want what we want when we want

789
00:28:05,009 –> 00:28:07,190
it now. And then when you get it

790
00:28:07,490 –> 00:28:11,089
now, the consequence is Mhmm. What is the

791
00:28:11,089 –> 00:28:12,789
impact of your behavior?

792
00:28:13,224 –> 00:28:14,664
The consequence, you’re gonna have to live out

793
00:28:14,664 –> 00:28:15,884
that impact. Mhmm.

794
00:28:16,264 –> 00:28:18,125
When you tell people that,

795
00:28:18,744 –> 00:28:19,244
often,

796
00:28:19,944 –> 00:28:21,085
they are unstable

797
00:28:22,264 –> 00:28:24,044
in the thought of

798
00:28:24,904 –> 00:28:26,125
I messed up.

799
00:28:26,744 –> 00:28:26,984
Still

800
00:28:27,769 –> 00:28:29,950
So, yes, you can blame the porn industry.

801
00:28:30,169 –> 00:28:32,490
You can blame the fact that they dropped

802
00:28:32,490 –> 00:28:35,049
the filter so that it made it harder

803
00:28:35,049 –> 00:28:37,129
for you to get to all kind of

804
00:28:37,129 –> 00:28:39,450
stuff any kind of way. You can even

805
00:28:39,450 –> 00:28:41,129
say, hey. If it weren’t for those crazy

806
00:28:41,129 –> 00:28:43,404
Christians, hey, we wouldn’t be dealing with this

807
00:28:43,404 –> 00:28:45,805
in the first place. Right? That, you know,

808
00:28:45,805 –> 00:28:47,164
yeah, we should have just laid hands on

809
00:28:47,164 –> 00:28:48,845
everybody and we would have been delivered. I

810
00:28:48,845 –> 00:28:51,164
have people like that too. No. This is

811
00:28:51,164 –> 00:28:52,144
more than sin.

812
00:28:52,445 –> 00:28:55,805
This is a dysfunctional way of being in

813
00:28:55,805 –> 00:28:56,305
relationship.

814
00:28:57,349 –> 00:28:59,130
Start being solid with yourself.

815
00:28:59,670 –> 00:29:02,070
You can’t give what you don’t have. Mhmm.

816
00:29:02,070 –> 00:29:03,830
If you think that you can do what

817
00:29:03,830 –> 00:29:05,529
you want when you want it now,

818
00:29:05,830 –> 00:29:07,590
what happens when somebody tries to do that

819
00:29:07,590 –> 00:29:08,809
to you? It’s unacceptable.

820
00:29:09,554 –> 00:29:12,454
That cannot be done. Then you’re not solid.

821
00:29:12,514 –> 00:29:14,914
Yeah. Correct. So true. So that’s why I

822
00:29:14,914 –> 00:29:16,674
say about the intent and impact because we

823
00:29:16,674 –> 00:29:18,595
will get stuck. Our good clients don’t get

824
00:29:18,595 –> 00:29:19,815
stuck on the intention.

825
00:29:20,194 –> 00:29:22,514
That was not my intention. Mhmm. I’m like,

826
00:29:22,514 –> 00:29:23,414
that’s fantastic.

827
00:29:24,440 –> 00:29:25,880
But now you need to see it right

828
00:29:25,880 –> 00:29:28,119
here. Yep. Well, it’s also why she’s not

829
00:29:28,200 –> 00:29:30,119
you know, what I would say is, yep.

830
00:29:30,119 –> 00:29:32,119
And that is why she decided to stay

831
00:29:32,119 –> 00:29:34,779
with you because she actually knows that. So

832
00:29:35,079 –> 00:29:37,240
cool. And let’s move on let’s move on

833
00:29:37,240 –> 00:29:39,414
beyond that. Right? Yes. Yes. So I got

834
00:29:39,414 –> 00:29:41,295
one Yeah. Go ahead. I got I got

835
00:29:41,295 –> 00:29:42,815
one more here for you. And this is

836
00:29:42,815 –> 00:29:44,974
gonna be this is the this is a

837
00:29:44,974 –> 00:29:45,715
hard one.

838
00:29:46,095 –> 00:29:47,555
So for my guys,

839
00:29:47,934 –> 00:29:49,695
image is important to a lot of them.

840
00:29:49,695 –> 00:29:52,255
High achieving men, they’ve kind of constructed this

841
00:29:52,255 –> 00:29:55,130
image and resume of being this elite

842
00:29:55,750 –> 00:29:57,130
accomplished, super desirable

843
00:29:57,670 –> 00:29:59,430
guy, right? All the men wish they could

844
00:29:59,430 –> 00:30:00,710
be me and all the women wish they

845
00:30:00,710 –> 00:30:02,150
could be with me, right? And we’ve worked

846
00:30:02,150 –> 00:30:03,289
really, really hard

847
00:30:03,910 –> 00:30:05,130
to be that guy.

848
00:30:05,509 –> 00:30:06,009
So,

849
00:30:06,390 –> 00:30:09,214
here’s a challenge that I see so freaking

850
00:30:09,275 –> 00:30:11,755
often, and I would love your take on

851
00:30:11,755 –> 00:30:12,255
it.

852
00:30:12,714 –> 00:30:15,054
The guy So they’ve decided to stay together.

853
00:30:15,275 –> 00:30:17,275
They’re a year in, two years in, three

854
00:30:17,275 –> 00:30:18,174
years in. Okay.

855
00:30:18,554 –> 00:30:20,095
My wife no longer

856
00:30:20,474 –> 00:30:21,375
sees me

857
00:30:21,900 –> 00:30:24,940
in the way that I work so hard

858
00:30:24,940 –> 00:30:26,480
to have everyone see me.

859
00:30:27,099 –> 00:30:29,500
That’s a really hard pill to swallow for

860
00:30:29,500 –> 00:30:31,900
these guys. My wife now knows that I’m

861
00:30:31,900 –> 00:30:35,019
capable of cheating and her brain will not

862
00:30:35,019 –> 00:30:35,840
ever forget.

863
00:30:36,205 –> 00:30:39,105
Through recovery, I’ve had to expose and confess

864
00:30:39,164 –> 00:30:40,684
to all sorts of stuff that had nothing

865
00:30:40,684 –> 00:30:42,525
to do with sex. It has to do

866
00:30:42,525 –> 00:30:44,384
with my addiction to validation,

867
00:30:44,765 –> 00:30:45,265
attention,

868
00:30:45,965 –> 00:30:48,220
I’m buying this, I’m buying that because I

869
00:30:48,220 –> 00:30:49,740
need to be the guy who has that

870
00:30:49,740 –> 00:30:51,660
thing so that the guys see me as

871
00:30:51,660 –> 00:30:53,420
that guy. And you have to start admitting

872
00:30:53,420 –> 00:30:55,420
to all these mental games that you play

873
00:30:55,420 –> 00:30:57,420
if you’re in good recovery. So here I

874
00:30:57,420 –> 00:31:00,460
am. I basically told her all of my

875
00:31:00,460 –> 00:31:01,440
bag of tricks.

876
00:31:02,154 –> 00:31:03,775
And now I’m just a cheater

877
00:31:04,154 –> 00:31:06,414
who manipulates everybody around me.

878
00:31:06,795 –> 00:31:08,154
It is so hard for a lot of

879
00:31:08,154 –> 00:31:11,134
these guys now, like, now I’m with somebody

880
00:31:11,194 –> 00:31:12,974
who like doesn’t think I’m

881
00:31:13,275 –> 00:31:15,355
awesome. Like that is a gut punch to

882
00:31:15,355 –> 00:31:18,000
these guys because they historically like to be

883
00:31:18,000 –> 00:31:20,240
around people who are impressed by them. What

884
00:31:20,240 –> 00:31:22,319
do we do around this? Now, I think

885
00:31:22,319 –> 00:31:24,160
every guy listening to this knows that the

886
00:31:24,160 –> 00:31:26,400
real solution is why do you gotta be

887
00:31:26,400 –> 00:31:28,400
so damn special? And why does your wife

888
00:31:28,400 –> 00:31:29,519
have to be one of those people who

889
00:31:29,519 –> 00:31:31,474
worships you? But that is the hard pill

890
00:31:31,474 –> 00:31:33,634
to swallow is, these guys run around the

891
00:31:33,634 –> 00:31:34,694
world being

892
00:31:35,234 –> 00:31:37,714
worshiped really by everyone at the conference. We

893
00:31:37,714 –> 00:31:40,115
got selfies being taken of them. I’m on

894
00:31:40,115 –> 00:31:42,115
this stage and everyone’s clapping for me. I

895
00:31:42,115 –> 00:31:43,634
just won this award. And then I go

896
00:31:43,634 –> 00:31:46,390
home and I’m just a normal freaking guy.

897
00:31:46,609 –> 00:31:48,049
What do these guys do around that? Because

898
00:31:48,049 –> 00:31:50,049
it’s a huge source of shame. And I

899
00:31:50,049 –> 00:31:52,450
think these guys tend to like how they’re

900
00:31:52,450 –> 00:31:54,849
looked at by the community versus how they’re

901
00:31:54,849 –> 00:31:56,069
looked at by their wife.

902
00:31:56,384 –> 00:31:58,705
Okay. So I know that you just asked

903
00:31:58,705 –> 00:32:01,744
me the question, but what they’re gaining something

904
00:32:01,744 –> 00:32:04,545
from that. Right? So they literally are gaining

905
00:32:04,545 –> 00:32:05,525
something from it,

906
00:32:05,825 –> 00:32:06,884
but it’s not

907
00:32:07,505 –> 00:32:08,005
real.

908
00:32:08,869 –> 00:32:09,369
So

909
00:32:09,670 –> 00:32:11,910
it’s almost like they put their avatar on

910
00:32:12,150 –> 00:32:13,609
Mhmm. And they’re out in the world

911
00:32:14,150 –> 00:32:16,410
being fancy and great and wonderful,

912
00:32:16,710 –> 00:32:17,990
and then they have to take it off

913
00:32:17,990 –> 00:32:20,630
and be, you know, will the real Roland

914
00:32:20,630 –> 00:32:23,095
please stand up? And, you know, it’s like

915
00:32:23,095 –> 00:32:24,934
the emperor with no pants on. Who’s gonna

916
00:32:24,934 –> 00:32:26,714
tell him that in reality,

917
00:32:27,095 –> 00:32:29,015
I can still care about you and love

918
00:32:29,015 –> 00:32:31,515
you Mhmm. As this great individual,

919
00:32:32,295 –> 00:32:34,375
but let me learn about who the real

920
00:32:34,375 –> 00:32:37,420
individual is. So when you talk about transparency,

921
00:32:37,880 –> 00:32:40,279
who is the real Roland? Yeah. Are you

922
00:32:40,279 –> 00:32:43,320
really ready to expose that? Because at some

923
00:32:43,320 –> 00:32:43,820
point,

924
00:32:44,279 –> 00:32:46,599
and maybe not in your world, you feel

925
00:32:46,599 –> 00:32:48,759
like you’ll never lose your money. You’ll never

926
00:32:48,759 –> 00:32:51,019
lose your friends. You’ll never lose your family.

927
00:32:51,205 –> 00:32:53,285
Except when people found out that you had

928
00:32:53,285 –> 00:32:56,325
an addiction that blew up everything in every

929
00:32:56,325 –> 00:32:59,065
place. So you’re still trying to pretend

930
00:32:59,605 –> 00:33:01,945
even when you go to the office etcetera

931
00:33:02,325 –> 00:33:05,285
because they just don’t know but everybody else

932
00:33:05,285 –> 00:33:07,859
in the kingdom does right So you seek

933
00:33:07,859 –> 00:33:08,359
out

934
00:33:09,059 –> 00:33:11,640
groups of folks that will idolize you

935
00:33:12,019 –> 00:33:13,320
instead of becoming

936
00:33:13,700 –> 00:33:16,099
who you really wanna be, which could still

937
00:33:16,099 –> 00:33:16,920
be fantastic,

938
00:33:17,619 –> 00:33:20,315
but in a normal way that doesn’t require

939
00:33:21,015 –> 00:33:24,054
material things to hook you up. So I

940
00:33:24,054 –> 00:33:26,375
feel like it’s an avatar. Yeah. It’s somebody

941
00:33:26,694 –> 00:33:28,214
you know, you come out of the game,

942
00:33:28,214 –> 00:33:29,734
you come out of the game, and it’s

943
00:33:29,734 –> 00:33:31,414
like and so who’s who’s the real person?

944
00:33:31,414 –> 00:33:33,015
So I’ll give you example. There are some

945
00:33:33,015 –> 00:33:34,615
people that show up a different way when

946
00:33:34,615 –> 00:33:36,509
they’re at work, and then there’s they show

947
00:33:36,509 –> 00:33:38,450
up a different way at home. Right?

948
00:33:39,150 –> 00:33:40,130
So imagine

949
00:33:40,910 –> 00:33:42,850
that you’re in all these different places.

950
00:33:43,470 –> 00:33:46,430
Who knows you what way? Mhmm. Because you’re

951
00:33:46,430 –> 00:33:47,170
not consistent

952
00:33:48,065 –> 00:33:50,464
anywhere. Can you figure out how you can

953
00:33:50,464 –> 00:33:51,365
be a consistent,

954
00:33:52,065 –> 00:33:53,125
authentic person?

955
00:33:53,505 –> 00:33:55,285
To be honest, I make people go through

956
00:33:55,505 –> 00:33:57,904
their core values. Right? Mhmm. Tell me what

957
00:33:57,904 –> 00:34:00,164
your core values are. Mhmm. And

958
00:34:00,625 –> 00:34:01,845
how you make decisions.

959
00:34:02,390 –> 00:34:04,330
And if you’re still making decisions

960
00:34:04,870 –> 00:34:06,170
that feed your addiction,

961
00:34:06,870 –> 00:34:08,969
you’re still walking around with an avatar. Mhmm.

962
00:34:10,070 –> 00:34:12,309
Mhmm. Right? You’re still trying to lie to

963
00:34:12,309 –> 00:34:14,489
yourself. You’re lying to yourself first.

964
00:34:14,914 –> 00:34:16,914
First and foremost, you’re lying to yourself. Mhmm.

965
00:34:16,914 –> 00:34:18,355
Yeah. I think you hit the nail on

966
00:34:18,355 –> 00:34:19,815
the head. It’s it’s it’s essentially

967
00:34:20,594 –> 00:34:22,355
make up your damn mind. What do you

968
00:34:22,355 –> 00:34:24,114
wanna do here? Are you going to be

969
00:34:24,114 –> 00:34:24,614
known?

970
00:34:24,914 –> 00:34:26,775
Or do you wanna go back to

971
00:34:27,315 –> 00:34:27,815
being

972
00:34:28,195 –> 00:34:28,934
known in the way that you highly orchestrate?

973
00:34:28,934 –> 00:34:28,971
Which is a it’s a one way road.

974
00:34:28,971 –> 00:34:29,574
It’s just what it is. And I always

975
00:34:30,300 –> 00:34:30,800
I

976
00:34:33,660 –> 00:34:34,160
already

977
00:34:37,019 –> 00:34:37,519
know

978
00:34:40,380 –> 00:34:41,760
that you’re gonna say to me,

979
00:34:42,380 –> 00:34:44,625
Wow, that’s such a cool approach. Oh my

980
00:34:44,625 –> 00:34:47,025
gosh, I love what you’ve made here. So

981
00:34:47,025 –> 00:34:48,945
you haven’t said that yet, but I’m gonna

982
00:34:48,945 –> 00:34:51,265
cook up a spell and I’m gonna cast

983
00:34:51,265 –> 00:34:52,085
it on you.

984
00:34:52,385 –> 00:34:54,005
And then guess what you say?

985
00:34:54,305 –> 00:34:54,805
Rowan,

986
00:34:55,179 –> 00:34:57,019
that’s such a cool approach. I love how

987
00:34:57,019 –> 00:34:58,860
much time you put into this. I already

988
00:34:58,860 –> 00:35:01,179
freaking predicted that before I even started saying

989
00:35:01,179 –> 00:35:02,619
it to you. So the challenge there is

990
00:35:02,619 –> 00:35:05,199
your compliment actually doesn’t mean anything to me

991
00:35:05,260 –> 00:35:07,900
because I engineered it and I really gave

992
00:35:07,900 –> 00:35:09,900
you no option to say anything different. And

993
00:35:09,900 –> 00:35:11,385
I think that’s the difference

994
00:35:11,845 –> 00:35:13,945
is, do you wanna go back to that,

995
00:35:14,085 –> 00:35:15,144
or do you wanna

996
00:35:15,445 –> 00:35:17,704
be known and loved by my wife

997
00:35:18,164 –> 00:35:20,085
in every way? This is what I am.

998
00:35:20,085 –> 00:35:21,525
This is what I do. This is why

999
00:35:21,525 –> 00:35:23,125
I do it. This is the dumb shit

1000
00:35:23,125 –> 00:35:24,644
that I keep doing, and I try to

1001
00:35:24,644 –> 00:35:25,465
stop doing.

1002
00:35:25,820 –> 00:35:27,679
And what you’re saying is basically

1003
00:35:28,460 –> 00:35:30,880
stop reminiscing around and glamorizing

1004
00:35:31,340 –> 00:35:33,599
how wonderful the past was because

1005
00:35:34,219 –> 00:35:35,980
here’s my proof that the past couldn’t have

1006
00:35:35,980 –> 00:35:38,059
been that great was, I don’t know any

1007
00:35:38,059 –> 00:35:38,559
grounded

1008
00:35:39,340 –> 00:35:40,400
father and husband

1009
00:35:40,925 –> 00:35:43,005
who’s banging a bunch of hookers and coming

1010
00:35:43,005 –> 00:35:44,764
home and pretending like he doesn’t and then

1011
00:35:44,764 –> 00:35:46,764
crawling into bed with his wife. So to

1012
00:35:46,764 –> 00:35:48,525
me, you can tell yourself that that was

1013
00:35:48,525 –> 00:35:49,025
working.

1014
00:35:49,484 –> 00:35:52,764
I don’t know. You’re overspending. You’re buying $40,000

1015
00:35:52,764 –> 00:35:54,364
watches you don’t need. I I don’t know.

1016
00:35:54,364 –> 00:35:55,744
You don’t look like a healthy

1017
00:35:56,280 –> 00:35:58,679
person. And so I have to $10,000

1018
00:35:58,679 –> 00:36:01,079
on porn online. That’s right. Yep. And then

1019
00:36:01,079 –> 00:36:03,320
wondering why you’re, you know, then complaining to

1020
00:36:03,320 –> 00:36:05,160
your spouse that, you know, you’re way over

1021
00:36:05,160 –> 00:36:05,660
budget.

1022
00:36:06,039 –> 00:36:07,579
Okay. Whose budget

1023
00:36:07,960 –> 00:36:10,199
are you talking about? But I believe that

1024
00:36:10,199 –> 00:36:12,304
there’s this kind of remember,

1025
00:36:12,605 –> 00:36:13,105
shame

1026
00:36:13,565 –> 00:36:16,364
protects us Mhmm. From looking at that stuff

1027
00:36:16,684 –> 00:36:18,444
Mhmm. In a real way. That’s why I

1028
00:36:18,444 –> 00:36:20,364
say impact. When you have to look at

1029
00:36:20,364 –> 00:36:22,844
dollars and cents. Right? We’ll we’ll talk about

1030
00:36:22,844 –> 00:36:24,925
them looking at their money. Now you may

1031
00:36:24,925 –> 00:36:26,364
have the ability to throw a whole bunch

1032
00:36:26,364 –> 00:36:28,349
of money around, but a whole bunch of

1033
00:36:28,349 –> 00:36:29,909
money still is a whole bunch of money

1034
00:36:30,109 –> 00:36:31,089
Mhmm. To somebody

1035
00:36:31,389 –> 00:36:33,010
that is affecting their livelihood.

1036
00:36:33,469 –> 00:36:35,329
So you explain all of that away.

1037
00:36:35,630 –> 00:36:36,130
Right?

1038
00:36:36,510 –> 00:36:38,429
Instead of who do you wanna be you

1039
00:36:38,429 –> 00:36:40,349
know, I keep going back to that solid

1040
00:36:40,349 –> 00:36:42,690
person that who are you?

1041
00:36:43,014 –> 00:36:44,375
Can I call you in the middle of

1042
00:36:44,375 –> 00:36:46,454
the night and count on you to come

1043
00:36:46,454 –> 00:36:49,755
pick me up from some place? Probably not

1044
00:36:49,815 –> 00:36:52,315
because you’re over there pimping out. Mhmm.

1045
00:36:52,855 –> 00:36:53,355
So,

1046
00:36:53,815 –> 00:36:55,275
yes, by the time

1047
00:36:55,969 –> 00:36:58,049
my clients get to meet, they’ve seen five

1048
00:36:58,049 –> 00:36:58,630
or six

1049
00:36:59,089 –> 00:36:59,829
other counselors.

1050
00:37:00,609 –> 00:37:01,109
And

1051
00:37:01,409 –> 00:37:03,409
then they’re gonna, you know, wait till you

1052
00:37:03,409 –> 00:37:05,829
get a load of me because I take

1053
00:37:05,969 –> 00:37:08,389
every prisoner. Mhmm. I take no prisoners.

1054
00:37:08,690 –> 00:37:10,585
Mhmm. Either you’re gonna hear to do the

1055
00:37:10,585 –> 00:37:13,724
work Mhmm. Or I’m a fire you. Mhmm.

1056
00:37:14,025 –> 00:37:16,505
Because there’s somebody right behind you that really

1057
00:37:16,505 –> 00:37:18,105
wants to get this work done. Yeah. And

1058
00:37:18,105 –> 00:37:19,945
they wanna get their work done, and they

1059
00:37:19,945 –> 00:37:23,019
wanna be solid, and they want to be,

1060
00:37:23,239 –> 00:37:24,619
a better word, honorable.

1061
00:37:24,920 –> 00:37:26,859
They wanna be honest with their partner.

1062
00:37:27,320 –> 00:37:29,579
Right? They want to be trusted.

1063
00:37:30,280 –> 00:37:32,359
How can I trust you when you’re wearing

1064
00:37:32,359 –> 00:37:35,659
your advertised suit? Yeah. Amen. Amen. Right? Right?

1065
00:37:35,825 –> 00:37:37,664
Work with people who want to be known

1066
00:37:37,664 –> 00:37:39,285
versus people who want

1067
00:37:39,825 –> 00:37:41,664
to be known just enough to shut them

1068
00:37:41,664 –> 00:37:43,664
up, so I can do as much as

1069
00:37:43,664 –> 00:37:45,425
my game on the side as I can.

1070
00:37:45,425 –> 00:37:47,105
Yeah. And I don’t think, to me, you

1071
00:37:47,105 –> 00:37:48,885
can’t do both. You got to commit.

1072
00:37:49,199 –> 00:37:51,780
Integrity is not a thing you do sometimes.

1073
00:37:51,839 –> 00:37:53,920
Right? It’s a full time full time commitment.

1074
00:37:53,920 –> 00:37:56,239
Plus, if you’re really trying to reconcile with

1075
00:37:56,239 –> 00:37:56,980
your partner,

1076
00:37:57,359 –> 00:37:59,519
the more I I know this this sentence

1077
00:37:59,519 –> 00:38:01,280
doesn’t sound right. The more honest you are

1078
00:38:01,280 –> 00:38:03,704
with yourself and they can see that Yeah.

1079
00:38:03,704 –> 00:38:05,644
True. The more they’ll be drawn

1080
00:38:06,105 –> 00:38:08,184
to you. Yeah. True. But if you’re still

1081
00:38:08,184 –> 00:38:09,484
trying to convince people

1082
00:38:09,944 –> 00:38:10,764
that you’re

1083
00:38:11,144 –> 00:38:13,625
all that and a bag of chips and

1084
00:38:13,625 –> 00:38:16,829
you’re still seriously struggling over here, you’re still

1085
00:38:16,829 –> 00:38:18,369
in therapeutic separation,

1086
00:38:18,910 –> 00:38:20,829
it’s not working. And by the way, yes,

1087
00:38:20,829 –> 00:38:23,390
I know we usually have therapeutic separations early

1088
00:38:23,390 –> 00:38:25,470
in the the process. But believe it or

1089
00:38:25,470 –> 00:38:28,510
not, because the shame thing, complex shame keeps

1090
00:38:28,510 –> 00:38:31,904
showing up, you’ll find me doing another therapeutic

1091
00:38:31,904 –> 00:38:32,404
separation.

1092
00:38:32,704 –> 00:38:35,105
For real, for real. Mhmm. Yeah. To reset.

1093
00:38:35,105 –> 00:38:36,464
No. I like that. I like that. Yeah.

1094
00:38:36,464 –> 00:38:38,144
If you haven’t done the work, you might

1095
00:38:38,144 –> 00:38:40,784
have to go into an environment where you

1096
00:38:40,784 –> 00:38:43,025
can get away from that. I agree with

1097
00:38:43,025 –> 00:38:44,609
that for sure. And and and you see

1098
00:38:44,609 –> 00:38:46,609
that. I see the guys who didn’t do

1099
00:38:46,609 –> 00:38:48,769
the work in the way they needed to

1100
00:38:48,769 –> 00:38:51,030
are the guys who find themselves separated

1101
00:38:51,569 –> 00:38:53,730
two, three, four years later because they’re just

1102
00:38:53,730 –> 00:38:54,469
doing everything.

1103
00:38:55,089 –> 00:38:55,589
They’re

1104
00:38:55,969 –> 00:38:57,569
checking the box off. Yeah. Exactly. And so

1105
00:38:57,569 –> 00:38:59,264
you check the boxes off, You look good.

1106
00:38:59,264 –> 00:39:01,424
You smell fresh, and you’re still messed up.

1107
00:39:01,424 –> 00:39:04,065
Right? Amen. So you made a statement. You

1108
00:39:04,065 –> 00:39:06,065
said often people don’t know that they’re in

1109
00:39:06,065 –> 00:39:08,704
shame. Right? Mhmm. So that struggle with self

1110
00:39:08,704 –> 00:39:09,204
confrontation

1111
00:39:09,905 –> 00:39:11,284
Mhmm. Is still there

1112
00:39:11,980 –> 00:39:14,480
because you still want to pat the baby

1113
00:39:14,619 –> 00:39:16,699
and say it’s gonna be okay. Mhmm. When

1114
00:39:16,699 –> 00:39:17,199
actuality

1115
00:39:17,739 –> 00:39:19,900
when we talk about disclosure, maybe you need

1116
00:39:19,900 –> 00:39:21,119
to disclose to yourself

1117
00:39:21,739 –> 00:39:23,360
that this is still not working.

1118
00:39:23,660 –> 00:39:25,660
What you’re doing right now, which is very

1119
00:39:25,660 –> 00:39:26,160
difficult,

1120
00:39:26,735 –> 00:39:27,235
you’re

1121
00:39:27,535 –> 00:39:30,574
denying shame could very well be benefiting you

1122
00:39:30,574 –> 00:39:32,494
right now. Yeah. Yeah. He looks like the

1123
00:39:32,494 –> 00:39:33,394
one that’s hysterical.

1124
00:39:34,175 –> 00:39:35,554
You’ve done all the work,

1125
00:39:36,015 –> 00:39:38,914
so it can’t be my shame. Right.

1126
00:39:39,295 –> 00:39:40,434
But the moment

1127
00:39:42,039 –> 00:39:45,019
she touches just the right place in your

1128
00:39:45,319 –> 00:39:46,380
emotional body,

1129
00:39:46,760 –> 00:39:48,219
you jump so high.

1130
00:39:48,679 –> 00:39:50,940
That should be your answer. Yeah.

1131
00:39:51,239 –> 00:39:53,819
Yes. We do. Yeah. Love it with Shane

1132
00:39:54,199 –> 00:39:56,864
and not the baby kind. You done. It’s

1133
00:39:56,864 –> 00:39:59,905
accelerated and it’s got teenagers now. Yeah. Yeah.

1134
00:39:59,905 –> 00:40:02,065
Oh, yeah. I hear that. So, Shirley, if

1135
00:40:02,065 –> 00:40:03,905
somebody’s listening to this and they like your

1136
00:40:03,905 –> 00:40:04,804
direct approach,

1137
00:40:05,344 –> 00:40:07,664
where are you licensed and how does somebody

1138
00:40:07,664 –> 00:40:08,804
get in touch with you?

1139
00:40:09,239 –> 00:40:09,739
So

1140
00:40:10,519 –> 00:40:11,340
I am

1141
00:40:11,800 –> 00:40:12,300
licensed

1142
00:40:12,599 –> 00:40:15,079
in the state of Washington Mhmm. And the

1143
00:40:15,079 –> 00:40:15,980
state of Arizona.

1144
00:40:16,280 –> 00:40:18,460
Mhmm. Right? Thanks to COVID.

1145
00:40:18,760 –> 00:40:21,719
And I am currently now a 100% online.

1146
00:40:21,719 –> 00:40:22,940
So you can go to

1147
00:40:23,474 –> 00:40:26,375
lwpc-wa.com

1148
00:40:26,835 –> 00:40:28,215
and go to my website,

1149
00:40:28,755 –> 00:40:31,414
and you will find a lovely little information

1150
00:40:31,715 –> 00:40:33,414
box that you can fill out and

1151
00:40:33,715 –> 00:40:36,055
my admin will give you a callback.

1152
00:40:36,515 –> 00:40:38,799
Right? This work is not easy. I don’t

1153
00:40:38,799 –> 00:40:41,219
play games with people. I just don’t because

1154
00:40:41,519 –> 00:40:43,359
if you’re really trying to get this done

1155
00:40:43,760 –> 00:40:46,319
and imagine if you spend a what? Almost

1156
00:40:46,319 –> 00:40:48,319
a year and a half and your partner

1157
00:40:48,319 –> 00:40:50,739
is just now coming along and she has

1158
00:40:50,960 –> 00:40:51,859
all the feelings.

1159
00:40:52,159 –> 00:40:53,219
Yeah. I can imagine

1160
00:40:53,755 –> 00:40:54,494
that just

1161
00:40:55,275 –> 00:40:57,195
revisiting Shane you thought you took care of

1162
00:40:57,355 –> 00:40:58,734
Mhmm. Just got reignited.

1163
00:40:59,355 –> 00:41:01,855
Mhmm. Welcome to welcome to the portrayal.

1164
00:41:02,234 –> 00:41:04,234
There you go. Yeah. Exactly. Go to my

1165
00:41:04,234 –> 00:41:06,014
website. It’s got all my information.

1166
00:41:06,315 –> 00:41:07,934
We’ll get back with you.

1167
00:41:08,239 –> 00:41:10,960
Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, Beverly. I appreciate this this

1168
00:41:10,960 –> 00:41:13,940
topic because it is it’s more complex

1169
00:41:14,639 –> 00:41:16,559
that deserves a deeper conversation. So I very

1170
00:41:16,559 –> 00:41:18,799
much appreciate this. Thank you so much. No

1171
00:41:18,799 –> 00:41:20,264
problem, sir. Take care of

1172
00:41:21,224 –> 00:41:23,704
yourself. Thanks for listening to this episode. If

1173
00:41:23,704 –> 00:41:25,144
you are a high achiever with a sex

1174
00:41:25,144 –> 00:41:27,144
addiction and you’re looking for a recovery group

1175
00:41:27,144 –> 00:41:30,424
full of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1176
00:41:30,424 –> 00:41:33,224
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1177
00:41:33,224 –> 00:41:34,525
using four day retreats,

1178
00:41:34,989 –> 00:41:37,730
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1179
00:41:37,789 –> 00:41:39,950
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1180
00:41:39,950 –> 00:41:41,869
save your marriage, go to our website and

1181
00:41:41,869 –> 00:41:42,769
fill out our application.

1182
00:41:43,070 –> 00:41:45,550
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1183
00:41:45,550 –> 00:41:47,150
along to a friend in recovery who would

1184
00:41:47,150 –> 00:41:49,150
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1185
00:41:49,150 –> 00:41:50,867
get this information out to as many high

1186
00:41:50,867 –> 00:41:53,107
achievers as possible, and I can’t do it

1187
00:41:53,107 –> 00:41:54,167
without your help.