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Alright. It's time to cut through the BS

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and just get real with it. You know,

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in this field, it's a tough balance sometimes.

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Right? Because we want to keep, you know,

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hope high and optimism

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and, positivity.

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Right? Because, you know, this is hard. Right?

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So we need to remain hopeful. We need

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to see the light at the end of

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the tunnel. But at the same time, we

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can't just, like, hide our heads in the

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sand here. I mean, this is a very

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big problem. It's very real.

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It is not a up until the right

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recovery. It typically has ups and downs and

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sometimes really low lows and really high highs.

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There's relapses, there's slips, there's there's ugly fights.

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Right? Just because you made it through the

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first two year doesn't mean that the fights

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aren't gonna get uglier between you and and

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and the relationship.

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Right? This is just not in linear

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process. And I brought Jackie back on with

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me today because she is a straight shooter.

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She's not gonna sugarcoat anything. She's super direct

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and I like to be direct too. I

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don't like to sugarcoat people. So here's the

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facts of addiction recovery and betrayal recovery delivered

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to you with no filters.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles specifically

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to the mindset of the high achiever. I'm

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your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The Successful

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Addict, a recovery group for high achieving men

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struggling with sex and porn addiction. For more

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information about joining our group or attending our

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next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Hello, everybody. I am here with Jackie back.

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Jackie, we are about to give everybody,

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the the truth.

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I'm so excited for this conversation. I am

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I'm a realist. I've always been a realist.

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I don't I don't want people to sugarcoat

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anything.

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You know,

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present it to me in a way that

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I can buy in, but at the same

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time, don't sugarcoat it. Like, if it if

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it's if it's hard, let me know how

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hard it's gonna be. If a lot of

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people struggle and fail, let me know that

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so that I can try extra hard. I

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think, you know, with my audience being,

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high achievers,

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executives, entrepreneurs, business owners,

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hard is not something that they shy away

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from. I think, you know, for my population,

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we don't need you to

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convince me to stay. Like, I I I

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screwed this up. I want to fix this.

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I don't wanna be a guy who does

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these things. So just tell me if it's

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gonna be hard, tell me how it's gonna

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be hard. If it's and if it's gonna

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be complicated, tell me it's gonna be complicated.

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If it's gonna be expensive, Tell me it's

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gonna be expensive. Like, I just wanna know

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all of these things so I can make

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a plan and I can I can know

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if I am trying as hard as I

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need to try? I wanna give you an

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opportunity to,

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say your spin on what I just said.

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Do you feel the same way? How do

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we navigate this? Where's that line between

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scaring people away and also being honest with

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them?

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Yeah. I mean, I I'm the type of

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person.

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I tend to be pretty direct. I tend

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to be pretty upfront.

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Even if I think I'm tiptoeing around things,

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people will be like, woah. That was really

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direct. And I'm like, oh, man. I was

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trying to tiptoe. Like, I, okay, like, I

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was trying to come in soft and

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let not that I'm not soft, but I

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can sometimes just be very direct and

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not realize that. So I tend to be

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pretty honest with people who are starting this

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process

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that

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it is a long process. It can be

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expensive.

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You know, the short term

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fix your sex addiction in thirty days,

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like, that's just not even gonna get you

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started,

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I think.

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And and there is a lot of work

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that is involved in this,

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but I think it can also be exciting.

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So when we say, yes, it's a long

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term process. You know, doctor Karnes' research says

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three to five years.

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Also, his research was with people mostly in

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residential treatment center.

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And I don't work in residential treatment centers,

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so,

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you know, it might be a little bit

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longer because they are out and about and

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living their life

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and that you know, they're not protected in

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a residential setting.

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So it is gonna take a long time.

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I usually say it shouldn't take that long

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to get sober. Mhmm.

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And then we enter the recovery phase,

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which

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is exciting

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and

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transforming. And that's usually if they're in a

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relationship,

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that's usually when their partner starts to get

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excited about the work they're doing.

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That's when they start to be, like, interested

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and maybe

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wanting to be more a part of this

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instead of feeling like

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I'm here

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because of something

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this person did to hurt me, not because

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I need to be here.

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They usually start to engage a little bit

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more

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at that point willingly and in an excited

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way. Mhmm. Yeah. So let's let's let's talk,

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oh gosh. It's a dreaded topic, but I

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think you and I injecting truth into it

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will will make it easier for the listeners

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to listeners to hear. But, of course, the

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dreaded topic of timeline,

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right, you know, everybody everybody wants it's frustrating

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being limbo, so everybody wants to know, hey,

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when is this gonna end?

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Now, Jackie and I are not going to

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give you a timeline because there is no

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such thing. But I would like to speak

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to it from a just what, you know,

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what to expect standpoint. So,

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let's first talk about the, you know, let's

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rewind all the way back to when this

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happens. Right? Sobriety.

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You know, I wanna inject some truth into

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this because I do think when we call

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this addiction, which I actually really don't like

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that term because I actually don't think a

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lot of the guys are addicted

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to sex, to

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boobs and vaginas and nudity. And, like, I

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don't I don't really think they're addicted to

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these things. And so I think the the

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problem with calling it that is there is

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this,

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unconscious almost expectation of, oh, it's an addiction.

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I have seen that on movies and TV.

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He's we need to we need to ship

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him off. He'll go to this place for

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four weeks and he'll come out and he'll

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be healthy.

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And very similar to a How to Quit

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Porn in thirty Days book,

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How to Quit Porn in thirty Days, even

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if you're living in a facility,

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if you know the psychology behind why this

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is happening, we can't undo this in thirty

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days. It's just it's not I mean, you

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know, Rob Wise admits, you know, he's the

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founder of Seeking Integrity, and he admits this

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right on his podcast. He says, if you

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think you're gonna come here and leave and

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not never act out again, that is, you

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know, that is absolutely not true. Tease you

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up for a successful recovery. But I wanted

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to speak to I'll I'll inject my truth

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into it, and then I'd love to hear

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yours. Jackie, I call it a spectrum. I

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mean, when you look at the because for

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the listeners who don't know this, although all

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my listeners know this, sex addiction is a

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process addiction. So if you guys really wanna

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understand this, look into process addiction, which we

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actually we we don't have a lot of

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data for sex addiction because it's very new

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and it's limited.

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We actually have a lot of data on

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process addictions, eating disorders. Like, if you guys

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wanna understand how to treat a sex addiction,

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look into anorexia, bulimia, some like, there's we've

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we've,

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I like directing guys that direction rather than

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gambling just because gambling's not a life sustaining

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function where sex and food are. So if

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you really wanna understand this, there's actually a

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good amount of research done on eating disorders,

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and it's a very I would say it's

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a similar approach.

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So but it's a spectrum. And if you

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look at how the American Psychological Association defines

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it,

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getting recovering from a process addiction is a

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slow and steady decrease

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in the thoughts and the behavior. Right? So

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I know no one wants to hear this.

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Your wife wants it to be a switch

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that you flip and then you're magically sober.

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But the truth is when we come to

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process, process addiction, changing the brain processes is

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a,

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it's a it's a process. And so you

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will gradually move down the sober spectrum

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closer to the sober end from the addicted

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end. The the thing is though, you're living

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life every day at some point along that

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spectrum. And so the challenge is in those

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first six months,

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you know, the truth is, you know, your

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husband or if for the guys listening to

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this, you, you're you're going to work or

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on that work trip

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still more on the addict side of the

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sober spectrum. That's the truth. Like, I don't

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I'm not, you know, anybody's gonna sugarcoat it

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besides that. Like, you are probably more addicted

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than sober going on this trip. Right? And

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you're really relying on guilt and grief to

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keep you sober, and it does a pretty

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good job for those first eight months that

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wears off though.

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Jack, how would you speak to guys and

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wives listening? Because I've I've having more and

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more wives listening to my podcast.

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How would you speak to sobriety so that

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people can have a very realistic

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understanding of it as a couple?

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Yeah. I I would agree that there is

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a continuum and even understanding

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whatever we're dealing with, the compulsive sexual behavior.

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Right?

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There is

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there

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there's different understanding. Somebody that starts working on

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this has

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a level of understanding.

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They know that it's hurt their wife. It's

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they know they might be able to determine

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a couple of ways that it's hurting them,

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but sometimes they're only seeing that it's hurting

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the partner Mhmm. And not themselves. Or they

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might know that this doesn't really align with

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my values, but is it really harmful? Mhmm.

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You know, those types of conversations.

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And we have to work with the fact

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that sometimes they don't know what they don't

268
00:09:19,590 --> 00:09:21,670
know. And so as we move down that

269
00:09:21,670 --> 00:09:22,809
sober continuum,

270
00:09:23,429 --> 00:09:25,850
they're going to have a deeper understanding and

271
00:09:26,149 --> 00:09:28,485
be able to circle back and put things

272
00:09:28,485 --> 00:09:30,325
in there, three circles, or put things in

273
00:09:30,325 --> 00:09:32,804
there, how they define relapse or add things

274
00:09:32,804 --> 00:09:35,465
to the slip circle just as a way

275
00:09:35,845 --> 00:09:38,965
to understand, I think, sometimes making it concrete

276
00:09:38,965 --> 00:09:40,105
instead of abstract.

277
00:09:40,610 --> 00:09:43,490
Mhmm. As we're moving down that continuum, they

278
00:09:43,490 --> 00:09:45,169
need to, you know, put that I will

279
00:09:45,169 --> 00:09:45,990
always say,

280
00:09:46,529 --> 00:09:47,909
putting it in the concrete,

281
00:09:48,610 --> 00:09:50,070
which is writing it down,

282
00:09:50,449 --> 00:09:52,149
puts it on the radar. Mhmm.

283
00:09:53,024 --> 00:09:54,784
Yeah. I like that. It's a what what

284
00:09:54,784 --> 00:09:57,264
you said too, which was my next talking

285
00:09:57,264 --> 00:09:58,164
point is

286
00:09:59,424 --> 00:09:59,924
recovery.

287
00:10:00,945 --> 00:10:02,945
You know, being that this is a process

288
00:10:02,945 --> 00:10:04,705
addiction, and the the reason I like to

289
00:10:04,705 --> 00:10:06,625
call it that and not a sex important

290
00:10:06,625 --> 00:10:07,605
addiction is

291
00:10:09,610 --> 00:10:12,250
the behavior that you're chasing might not I

292
00:10:12,250 --> 00:10:14,090
I mean, shoot from our in house research,

293
00:10:14,090 --> 00:10:16,250
which is not official. I haven't, but we

294
00:10:16,250 --> 00:10:18,090
collect it from it's only eighteen percent of

295
00:10:18,090 --> 00:10:20,809
guys who actually identify with viewing this as

296
00:10:20,809 --> 00:10:22,754
an addiction or an escape. The bulk of

297
00:10:22,754 --> 00:10:24,595
the guys in my program, the the one

298
00:10:24,595 --> 00:10:27,315
of the the biggest driving factors is something

299
00:10:27,315 --> 00:10:28,294
that they gain.

300
00:10:28,914 --> 00:10:30,855
So this could be, validation.

301
00:10:31,235 --> 00:10:32,934
This could be attention, admiration.

302
00:10:33,394 --> 00:10:35,315
Right? So it's not an escape. It's more

303
00:10:35,315 --> 00:10:37,799
of a means. Right? And I think the

304
00:10:37,799 --> 00:10:39,820
other challenge too, Jackie, is,

305
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,360
a lot of people look at this and

306
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:43,720
they look at these guys like, oh my

307
00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,480
gosh. I can't believe this guy did this.

308
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,179
What a monster. What a sicko.

309
00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,679
It's interesting that that's people's response because I'm

310
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:51,179
like,

311
00:10:51,485 --> 00:10:53,004
I don't know. It makes to me, it

312
00:10:53,004 --> 00:10:55,105
makes a ton of sense. Here's a guy,

313
00:10:55,404 --> 00:10:58,524
successful driven dude who has been watching action

314
00:10:58,524 --> 00:11:01,805
movies for his his whole youth. Meanwhile, the

315
00:11:01,805 --> 00:11:03,745
character in these movies is not married.

316
00:11:04,125 --> 00:11:06,764
He is being lusted after and lusting after

317
00:11:06,764 --> 00:11:07,264
women,

318
00:11:07,860 --> 00:11:10,179
in every movie, in every episode over and

319
00:11:10,179 --> 00:11:12,100
over and over. You know, the women are

320
00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:15,220
constantly being shown as this trophy to be

321
00:11:15,220 --> 00:11:17,379
achieved and then your hero in the movie

322
00:11:17,379 --> 00:11:19,220
is whether it be James Bond or whoever

323
00:11:19,220 --> 00:11:21,700
it is, is getting this trophy and conquering

324
00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:23,834
it. And I think we as a society

325
00:11:24,454 --> 00:11:26,454
are not I I I don't think we

326
00:11:26,454 --> 00:11:29,355
I think we wanna blame these guys rather

327
00:11:30,134 --> 00:11:32,294
than James Bond because we've all watched James

328
00:11:32,294 --> 00:11:34,054
Bond movies. And so we don't want that

329
00:11:34,054 --> 00:11:35,654
to be the problem because we're like, well,

330
00:11:35,654 --> 00:11:36,934
it can't be the problem because I watched

331
00:11:36,934 --> 00:11:38,590
it, and I'm not a sex And so

332
00:11:38,590 --> 00:11:40,350
why would him watching it? But, again, I

333
00:11:40,350 --> 00:11:42,610
think that's ignoring, especially my population.

334
00:11:43,389 --> 00:11:46,509
It's ignoring successful men and their desire to

335
00:11:46,509 --> 00:11:48,910
be influential as a young man. If I'm

336
00:11:48,910 --> 00:11:51,125
watching that when I'm 12 years old, it's

337
00:11:51,125 --> 00:11:53,284
the playbook that I'm about to execute on

338
00:11:53,284 --> 00:11:54,644
for the rest of my life. And I

339
00:11:54,644 --> 00:11:56,345
I think, you know

340
00:11:56,804 --> 00:11:58,325
so to bring this back to my initial

341
00:11:58,325 --> 00:11:58,825
question,

342
00:11:59,605 --> 00:12:01,764
I don't know if guys are recovering from

343
00:12:01,764 --> 00:12:03,399
what they need to recover from, And I

344
00:12:03,399 --> 00:12:05,399
think that's why we see the relapse rate

345
00:12:05,399 --> 00:12:07,320
vary a lot higher than it should be

346
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:07,820
is

347
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,299
even though these guys are trying their hardest

348
00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:11,959
to quit a sex and porn edition, I

349
00:12:11,959 --> 00:12:13,500
think that's the problem. I think

350
00:12:14,039 --> 00:12:16,795
they're trying to not do sex and porn,

351
00:12:16,795 --> 00:12:18,235
but I don't think that's really what the

352
00:12:18,235 --> 00:12:20,075
issue was. I think the issue was exactly

353
00:12:20,075 --> 00:12:21,915
what you said, Jackie. They are under the

354
00:12:21,915 --> 00:12:22,975
impression that

355
00:12:23,355 --> 00:12:26,554
this is what successful men do. And so

356
00:12:26,554 --> 00:12:29,355
it's their their system's really not that alarmed.

357
00:12:29,355 --> 00:12:31,259
It's like, oh, I'm just I'm just I'm

358
00:12:31,259 --> 00:12:33,360
just trying to I'm get I'm getting money.

359
00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:35,500
I'm buying the cars they want. I'm buying

360
00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:37,660
the outfits they want. I'm speaking in the

361
00:12:37,660 --> 00:12:39,259
way they want, and now I'm getting in

362
00:12:39,259 --> 00:12:41,840
trouble for something that I've been literally perfecting

363
00:12:41,899 --> 00:12:43,680
for the last thirty years.

364
00:12:44,285 --> 00:12:45,965
That is why I think we we see

365
00:12:45,965 --> 00:12:48,125
issues with sobriety is I don't know if

366
00:12:48,125 --> 00:12:50,125
they're recovering from the right thing. What are

367
00:12:50,125 --> 00:12:51,264
your thoughts on that?

368
00:12:52,524 --> 00:12:54,285
Yeah. I would I mean, those I I

369
00:12:54,285 --> 00:12:55,725
have a lot of thoughts on that. I

370
00:12:55,725 --> 00:12:56,545
would say,

371
00:12:58,279 --> 00:13:00,279
a, I mean, I think two things in

372
00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:03,000
our society that we would say hold the

373
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,220
most power are sex and money. Mhmm.

374
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,340
And so, yeah, if a young boy is

375
00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:11,879
watching all of these action adventure movies and

376
00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:13,740
watching the hero of the show,

377
00:13:14,254 --> 00:13:16,815
they're usually, you know, driving nice cars, they're

378
00:13:16,815 --> 00:13:18,654
dressing very nice, and they have a lot

379
00:13:18,654 --> 00:13:19,315
of women.

380
00:13:19,695 --> 00:13:22,414
We are literally showing them this is what

381
00:13:22,414 --> 00:13:25,455
success looks like. Mhmm. My question would always

382
00:13:25,455 --> 00:13:26,654
be, like, if somebody came in and was

383
00:13:26,654 --> 00:13:28,115
saying this to me, I would say,

384
00:13:28,549 --> 00:13:30,149
what was going on with that 12 year

385
00:13:30,149 --> 00:13:32,970
old Mhmm. That he didn't feel enough Mhmm.

386
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:35,850
And was looking to this movie

387
00:13:36,549 --> 00:13:39,350
as a role model to make what feel

388
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:41,750
better? Like, what what was that speaking to?

389
00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:44,554
What was that resonating with? And why were

390
00:13:44,715 --> 00:13:46,975
was that 12 year old already not enough?

391
00:13:47,995 --> 00:13:49,915
Mhmm. That oh my gosh. So I want

392
00:13:49,995 --> 00:13:52,154
and I wanna highlight this because there's a

393
00:13:52,154 --> 00:13:54,315
lot of successful guys who actually came from,

394
00:13:54,634 --> 00:13:57,674
pretty put together families. Guys, I wanna highlight

395
00:13:57,674 --> 00:13:59,295
this, what Jackie said though.

396
00:13:59,889 --> 00:14:02,049
My I had what everyone would call good

397
00:14:02,049 --> 00:14:03,730
parents. They loved me. They you know, we

398
00:14:03,730 --> 00:14:05,649
were poor, but they did whatever they could

399
00:14:05,649 --> 00:14:06,850
to, you know, I had a I had

400
00:14:06,850 --> 00:14:08,929
a car, old crappy car, but I had

401
00:14:08,929 --> 00:14:10,370
a car to drive when I was 16.

402
00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:11,809
I I mean, they tried so hard to

403
00:14:11,809 --> 00:14:13,490
give me a normal and a good life

404
00:14:13,490 --> 00:14:15,774
despite our financial constraints that we had as

405
00:14:15,774 --> 00:14:18,575
a family. That all being said, there was

406
00:14:18,575 --> 00:14:21,695
a massive emphasis on get good grades, become

407
00:14:21,695 --> 00:14:25,695
successful, save your money, retire early, make financial,

408
00:14:26,254 --> 00:14:28,350
you know, it was a very performance based

409
00:14:28,509 --> 00:14:28,909
household.

410
00:14:29,389 --> 00:14:31,649
We, you know, we were encouraged to get

411
00:14:31,709 --> 00:14:33,789
straight a's. My brother was valedictorian, you know,

412
00:14:33,789 --> 00:14:35,389
as an Eagle Scout and, like, it was

413
00:14:35,389 --> 00:14:37,870
like it was, you know, a successful life

414
00:14:37,870 --> 00:14:40,690
according to my parents was how many things

415
00:14:40,909 --> 00:14:43,285
do successful things do you accomplish? How many

416
00:14:43,285 --> 00:14:45,445
impressive things? How many things that nobody else

417
00:14:45,445 --> 00:14:47,924
can accomplish can you accomplish? And that sounds

418
00:14:47,924 --> 00:14:50,404
like good encouraging parents. Right? Here they are

419
00:14:50,404 --> 00:14:52,105
wanting me to become successful.

420
00:14:52,485 --> 00:14:53,924
And so, you know, it's con you know,

421
00:14:53,924 --> 00:14:54,985
hey. Here's here's,

422
00:14:55,285 --> 00:14:56,884
how to live a debt free life. Hey.

423
00:14:56,884 --> 00:14:58,550
Don't, you know, it's fine to have nice

424
00:14:58,550 --> 00:15:00,870
things, but buy them cash. Don't get buried

425
00:15:00,870 --> 00:15:02,550
in debt showing off and buying stuff you

426
00:15:02,550 --> 00:15:04,470
can't afford. Right? All these fine you know,

427
00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:06,629
one would say, oh, great advice. But if

428
00:15:06,629 --> 00:15:08,389
I look back now that I know about,

429
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:10,195
like, what we're supposed to be taught as

430
00:15:10,195 --> 00:15:12,195
a human, never once were like, oh, I'm

431
00:15:12,195 --> 00:15:15,075
so happy you are you and I will

432
00:15:15,075 --> 00:15:17,894
love you whether you're a magician, a poet,

433
00:15:18,514 --> 00:15:21,330
whether you decide to move to Nicaragua and

434
00:15:21,410 --> 00:15:23,410
spend your life trying to clean water for

435
00:15:23,410 --> 00:15:24,950
one of the tribes or community.

436
00:15:25,330 --> 00:15:27,009
There was never any, hey. I love you

437
00:15:27,009 --> 00:15:29,350
for whatever you decide to do. It was,

438
00:15:29,490 --> 00:15:32,450
oh, hey. Go become this. And that's trauma.

439
00:15:32,450 --> 00:15:34,450
I know people don't think that's trauma, but

440
00:15:34,450 --> 00:15:35,350
your parents

441
00:15:36,134 --> 00:15:38,875
putting a massive emphasis on you being

442
00:15:39,894 --> 00:15:42,695
accomplished and successful. I know America would say

443
00:15:42,695 --> 00:15:43,915
that that is good parenting,

444
00:15:44,615 --> 00:15:47,195
and that's I'm not saying it's bad parenting.

445
00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:49,190
I'm saying there's a lot of things that

446
00:15:49,190 --> 00:15:50,549
are being left out by that. So to

447
00:15:50,549 --> 00:15:52,149
answer your question, Jackie, what was happening to

448
00:15:52,149 --> 00:15:53,909
little Roland when that was happening? Yeah. I

449
00:15:53,909 --> 00:15:54,889
was being told

450
00:15:55,669 --> 00:15:59,110
that I that you that successful people are

451
00:15:59,110 --> 00:15:59,610
successful

452
00:16:00,084 --> 00:16:01,605
and looked at the way they are and

453
00:16:01,605 --> 00:16:03,684
respected because of the things they've accomplished. And

454
00:16:03,684 --> 00:16:04,725
that was what I was told. And I

455
00:16:04,725 --> 00:16:06,325
wasn't just told that by my parents, Jackie.

456
00:16:06,325 --> 00:16:08,964
I was told that by teachers, mentors. I

457
00:16:08,964 --> 00:16:11,464
was told that by by other successful men.

458
00:16:11,684 --> 00:16:13,524
I mean, I I I had a retreat

459
00:16:13,524 --> 00:16:15,350
this weekend, and one of my clients, it

460
00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:16,870
was so sad. He was we're having this

461
00:16:16,870 --> 00:16:19,190
discussion and he was he bought a a

462
00:16:19,190 --> 00:16:21,509
yacht, a small yacht, and he was having

463
00:16:21,509 --> 00:16:23,750
his eight year old son drive it. And

464
00:16:23,750 --> 00:16:25,429
he was thinking he was being a good

465
00:16:25,429 --> 00:16:26,950
father. You know, he told his son? He

466
00:16:26,950 --> 00:16:29,365
said, and why does daddy have this? And

467
00:16:29,365 --> 00:16:32,565
he says, because he works hard. And he

468
00:16:32,565 --> 00:16:34,485
was so proud to tell his son that.

469
00:16:34,485 --> 00:16:36,404
And now he's crying in front of a

470
00:16:36,404 --> 00:16:38,644
group of men in my recovery groups that

471
00:16:38,644 --> 00:16:40,565
that was what he shoved down his son's

472
00:16:40,565 --> 00:16:42,245
throat because now his son, fast forward, his

473
00:16:42,245 --> 00:16:43,225
son's 21.

474
00:16:43,340 --> 00:16:45,259
He's texting him and he says, dad, help

475
00:16:45,259 --> 00:16:46,860
me make help teach me how to make

476
00:16:46,860 --> 00:16:48,779
more money is what he his son just

477
00:16:48,779 --> 00:16:50,299
texted him this. So my point of all

478
00:16:50,299 --> 00:16:51,120
of this is

479
00:16:51,820 --> 00:16:53,980
if to to your point, if we are

480
00:16:53,980 --> 00:16:56,139
being shown this is what success is, and

481
00:16:56,139 --> 00:16:57,745
you name it. And and, again, don't act

482
00:16:57,745 --> 00:17:00,544
like women are immune to this. 50 Shades

483
00:17:00,544 --> 00:17:03,504
of Grey was a book written for women,

484
00:17:03,504 --> 00:17:06,224
and it was basically saying, this is what

485
00:17:06,704 --> 00:17:08,544
oh, this is a fantasy that women have.

486
00:17:08,544 --> 00:17:10,559
And what was he? A trust fund billionaire

487
00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:12,380
who drove around in Audi r eight and

488
00:17:12,380 --> 00:17:14,140
flew around in his helicopter and had a

489
00:17:14,140 --> 00:17:16,460
red room where he courted all of these

490
00:17:16,460 --> 00:17:18,539
women. So, again, it's just my point is

491
00:17:18,539 --> 00:17:19,740
I think we need this I think we

492
00:17:19,740 --> 00:17:22,255
need to stop being so appalled that this

493
00:17:22,255 --> 00:17:24,575
is occurring and really look at why this

494
00:17:24,575 --> 00:17:26,255
is occurring because I don't I don't think

495
00:17:26,255 --> 00:17:28,015
men really want to be doing this. I

496
00:17:28,015 --> 00:17:29,934
think that they're being brainwashed into this. Would

497
00:17:29,934 --> 00:17:31,154
you agree? Yeah.

498
00:17:31,535 --> 00:17:33,934
Yeah. Well, I I think for you, you

499
00:17:33,934 --> 00:17:35,950
mentioned that your family was poor, so the

500
00:17:35,950 --> 00:17:38,269
message is coming from your parents were don't

501
00:17:38,269 --> 00:17:41,309
be like us Mhmm. Yeah. Which says something

502
00:17:41,309 --> 00:17:43,470
to a young boy or a girl, whoever.

503
00:17:43,470 --> 00:17:45,390
I don't care the gender. Right? It says

504
00:17:45,390 --> 00:17:46,529
something to them

505
00:17:46,910 --> 00:17:49,710
because we do see ourselves coming from our

506
00:17:49,710 --> 00:17:52,505
parents. Mhmm. And if they're telling us, don't

507
00:17:52,505 --> 00:17:53,325
be like me,

508
00:17:54,345 --> 00:17:57,305
that gets confusing at pretty young ages. Mhmm.

509
00:17:57,305 --> 00:17:59,545
And it turns into some beliefs and beliefs

510
00:17:59,545 --> 00:18:00,285
about self.

511
00:18:00,904 --> 00:18:02,924
But, also, if parents are extremely

512
00:18:03,305 --> 00:18:04,445
wealthy and successful,

513
00:18:05,549 --> 00:18:07,789
kids are afraid of being less than. Mhmm.

514
00:18:07,789 --> 00:18:09,250
They set that bar

515
00:18:09,950 --> 00:18:10,450
at

516
00:18:10,750 --> 00:18:13,230
be like us, and kids are afraid to

517
00:18:13,230 --> 00:18:15,869
struggle. Kids are afraid, at 21,

518
00:18:15,869 --> 00:18:18,049
to not be making enough money. Yes.

519
00:18:18,394 --> 00:18:20,794
And and so either of those are gonna

520
00:18:20,794 --> 00:18:23,434
get in the way of developing that authentic

521
00:18:23,434 --> 00:18:23,934
self.

522
00:18:24,234 --> 00:18:26,714
Exact oh my gosh. You're so Jackie, now

523
00:18:26,714 --> 00:18:28,875
I see why I was referred to you.

524
00:18:28,875 --> 00:18:31,859
You're just a smart person. That is such

525
00:18:31,859 --> 00:18:34,200
a great thing to say. We are accidentally

526
00:18:36,740 --> 00:18:39,619
making them be afraid of being poor, making

527
00:18:39,619 --> 00:18:41,859
them afraid of not having their life not

528
00:18:41,859 --> 00:18:43,859
add up to anything, making that and so,

529
00:18:43,859 --> 00:18:46,765
again, I know parents mean well by this,

530
00:18:46,765 --> 00:18:48,525
but, you know, what are you doing to

531
00:18:48,525 --> 00:18:51,244
that boy? You're putting he is now surfing

532
00:18:51,244 --> 00:18:53,005
because that's what I did. By by age

533
00:18:53,005 --> 00:18:53,505
10,

534
00:18:54,045 --> 00:18:56,625
they were so focused on me performing

535
00:18:57,085 --> 00:18:59,085
and be and living a big life, which

536
00:18:59,085 --> 00:19:00,839
again, they thought they were being good parents.

537
00:19:00,839 --> 00:19:02,299
So did I. So did everyone.

538
00:19:02,759 --> 00:19:04,119
But you know what that caused me to

539
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,679
do? I am constantly surveying who's the most

540
00:19:06,679 --> 00:19:08,299
impressive guy in the room and why.

541
00:19:08,679 --> 00:19:11,259
And what did our society show? He's usually

542
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,480
super wealthy. So then what happened? I became

543
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,000
friends with him. I became friends with all

544
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,805
of his friends. And what would I find

545
00:19:16,805 --> 00:19:17,305
out?

546
00:19:17,765 --> 00:19:20,164
They aren't faithful a lot of the times,

547
00:19:20,484 --> 00:19:22,565
and part of their culture is, oh, how

548
00:19:22,565 --> 00:19:24,964
many women can you sleep with? How how

549
00:19:24,964 --> 00:19:26,404
many young women can you sleep with? How

550
00:19:26,404 --> 00:19:27,464
many, married

551
00:19:27,765 --> 00:19:29,365
women can you get to cheat on their

552
00:19:29,365 --> 00:19:31,639
husbands? I mean, it's this it's this, how

553
00:19:31,639 --> 00:19:33,559
do we prove that we've made it. Right?

554
00:19:33,559 --> 00:19:36,039
Because once you once once you've made it

555
00:19:36,039 --> 00:19:38,440
ish, you know, now there's not you know,

556
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,119
you've bought all the stuff. Now the only

557
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:41,899
thing to prove is how do I keep

558
00:19:42,039 --> 00:19:44,384
proving this essentially to myself and my and

559
00:19:44,384 --> 00:19:45,825
my peers? How do I how do I

560
00:19:45,825 --> 00:19:47,664
walk the walk? And if part of successful

561
00:19:47,664 --> 00:19:50,065
male culture is, well, how many women how

562
00:19:50,065 --> 00:19:51,744
many women wish they could be with you

563
00:19:51,744 --> 00:19:53,825
instead of their husband? If that's the measure

564
00:19:53,825 --> 00:19:56,065
of success, which I know this sounds insane

565
00:19:56,065 --> 00:19:58,089
to some listeners, but, guys, this is this

566
00:19:58,089 --> 00:20:00,169
is just kinda been running in successful male

567
00:20:00,169 --> 00:20:02,409
circles for, I would say, over fifty years.

568
00:20:02,409 --> 00:20:04,169
Right? And so when I say what are

569
00:20:04,169 --> 00:20:06,589
you recovering from, that's what I mean is,

570
00:20:06,730 --> 00:20:10,269
like, do you really understand how this happened?

571
00:20:10,494 --> 00:20:12,095
And don't just listen to everybody in your

572
00:20:12,095 --> 00:20:13,934
12 step meeting telling you that you're coping

573
00:20:13,934 --> 00:20:14,595
with negative,

574
00:20:14,974 --> 00:20:16,835
emotions and you have an intimacy disorder.

575
00:20:17,214 --> 00:20:19,615
You might be doing those things, but don't

576
00:20:19,615 --> 00:20:21,454
just take their word for it. Really understand

577
00:20:21,454 --> 00:20:23,214
how did this happen. Right? Because my own

578
00:20:23,214 --> 00:20:24,900
story, if I rewind to how this happened,

579
00:20:25,140 --> 00:20:27,059
I hated cheaters, and I was never going

580
00:20:27,059 --> 00:20:28,580
to cheat ever ever ever. Now I was

581
00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:30,420
a flirt. Don't get me wrong. I've flirted

582
00:20:30,420 --> 00:20:32,339
since I was, like, 14. But I was

583
00:20:32,339 --> 00:20:33,859
like, no. No. No. I'm never going to

584
00:20:33,859 --> 00:20:36,680
cross that line until I met these successful

585
00:20:36,740 --> 00:20:38,820
men, and I've known their wives. I knew

586
00:20:38,820 --> 00:20:40,580
their families. And all of a sudden, it's

587
00:20:40,580 --> 00:20:40,875
like

588
00:20:41,595 --> 00:20:42,795
if I remember the first year, I was

589
00:20:42,795 --> 00:20:43,835
just like, oh my gosh. I was so

590
00:20:43,835 --> 00:20:46,255
disappointed. Like, here's all my mentors and idols

591
00:20:46,474 --> 00:20:47,694
and they all are cheaters.

592
00:20:48,234 --> 00:20:49,994
And, but it wasn't more than a year

593
00:20:49,994 --> 00:20:51,434
later before it was like, well, I guess

594
00:20:51,434 --> 00:20:53,035
this is just the way that it is.

595
00:20:53,035 --> 00:20:54,714
And next thing you know, I became one

596
00:20:54,714 --> 00:20:56,154
of them. And and it's it's really sad.

597
00:20:56,154 --> 00:20:58,070
I hate I'm filled with emotion saying that

598
00:20:58,070 --> 00:21:00,549
out loud because here's this kid just trying

599
00:21:00,549 --> 00:21:02,470
to just trying to succeed. That's all I

600
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:04,070
wanted. I just wanted to be somebody one

601
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:06,710
day. And my mentors taught me how to

602
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:08,170
become somebody that,

603
00:21:09,214 --> 00:21:10,575
and again, I can't I can't I can't

604
00:21:10,575 --> 00:21:12,414
blame them because ultimately I went along with

605
00:21:12,414 --> 00:21:14,575
it. But, you know, when you see your

606
00:21:14,575 --> 00:21:17,295
mentor saying, hey. This is what success looks

607
00:21:17,295 --> 00:21:19,055
like, and he's the most celebrated man in

608
00:21:19,055 --> 00:21:21,420
the industry, and everybody knows his name, and

609
00:21:21,420 --> 00:21:23,259
everybody subscribed to his email list, and he's

610
00:21:23,259 --> 00:21:24,860
sending out 1,300,000

611
00:21:24,860 --> 00:21:26,720
emails, and he eats

612
00:21:27,340 --> 00:21:28,799
breakfast at Mar a Lago,

613
00:21:29,180 --> 00:21:31,500
and I'm supposed to not do as he

614
00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:33,420
does. I think that's the challenge that we're

615
00:21:33,420 --> 00:21:35,500
talking about. So, I love what how you

616
00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:37,204
articulated that. Right? Teaching your

617
00:21:38,144 --> 00:21:40,544
kids not to be afraid of not having

618
00:21:40,544 --> 00:21:43,505
money, to be afraid of not having a

619
00:21:43,505 --> 00:21:44,005
relationship,

620
00:21:44,384 --> 00:21:46,065
to be afraid you know, now is all

621
00:21:46,065 --> 00:21:48,224
this scarcity, and what's that gonna come down

622
00:21:48,224 --> 00:21:49,779
to? Yeah. I like that. So my next,

623
00:21:50,099 --> 00:21:51,480
my next question here is,

624
00:21:52,579 --> 00:21:54,920
let's get into the truth of the relationship.

625
00:21:55,859 --> 00:21:56,359
So

626
00:21:57,940 --> 00:22:00,660
this one oh, man. This is always dangerous

627
00:22:00,660 --> 00:22:02,180
territory, but we need to go here because

628
00:22:02,180 --> 00:22:03,380
I think it just it it just it

629
00:22:03,380 --> 00:22:04,974
needs to be said because I think for

630
00:22:04,974 --> 00:22:06,815
a couple to thrive after this, I think

631
00:22:06,815 --> 00:22:08,815
they need to understand it's no joke. I

632
00:22:08,815 --> 00:22:10,734
mean, this is a you're dealing with two

633
00:22:10,734 --> 00:22:12,034
complex hurt humans,

634
00:22:12,894 --> 00:22:15,214
who are going to be living in a

635
00:22:15,214 --> 00:22:16,815
reality that you do not wanna live in,

636
00:22:16,815 --> 00:22:18,654
and now they have to somehow stay married

637
00:22:18,654 --> 00:22:20,322
to each other. It's a it's a it's

638
00:22:20,322 --> 00:22:22,366
a big feat. So, so, Jackie, when you're

639
00:22:22,366 --> 00:22:24,410
looking at this, you know, I what I

640
00:22:24,637 --> 00:22:26,908
we here the elephant in the room is,

641
00:22:26,908 --> 00:22:28,725
and we all know this, we're asking the

642
00:22:28,725 --> 00:22:30,542
perpetrator and the victim to sleep in the

643
00:22:30,542 --> 00:22:32,359
same bed and stay married to each other,

644
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,214
right, which we never ask the perpetrator and

645
00:22:34,214 --> 00:22:35,575
the victim to do that, and we're asking

646
00:22:35,575 --> 00:22:37,095
them to do that. I mean, I'm I'm

647
00:22:37,095 --> 00:22:39,115
not always asking them to do that. Like,

648
00:22:39,335 --> 00:22:42,134
I I usually say to this partner True.

649
00:22:42,214 --> 00:22:43,974
What do you need to feel safe? Yes.

650
00:22:43,974 --> 00:22:46,214
True. I love that. If that means he

651
00:22:46,214 --> 00:22:48,454
sleeps in one of the other rooms for

652
00:22:48,454 --> 00:22:49,035
a while,

653
00:22:49,789 --> 00:22:51,950
then can you agree to that? Is that

654
00:22:52,109 --> 00:22:53,789
does that make sense to you? And how

655
00:22:53,789 --> 00:22:56,269
do we try to keep some relational aspect

656
00:22:56,269 --> 00:22:58,690
in place? I love that. So

657
00:22:59,069 --> 00:23:01,150
we don't have to do that. Some couples,

658
00:23:01,150 --> 00:23:03,309
though, she would get more triggered if he

659
00:23:03,309 --> 00:23:04,769
was in the next room. Right.

660
00:23:05,244 --> 00:23:06,845
And so to me, I'm like, I'm not

661
00:23:06,845 --> 00:23:09,184
gonna judge you, and you shouldn't judge yourself,

662
00:23:10,125 --> 00:23:12,365
but you have to find that answer to

663
00:23:12,365 --> 00:23:14,044
the question of what is gonna make me

664
00:23:14,044 --> 00:23:15,884
feel safe right now. I love that. And

665
00:23:15,884 --> 00:23:18,365
that and, Jackie, you spoke to one of

666
00:23:18,365 --> 00:23:18,865
the

667
00:23:19,289 --> 00:23:20,890
300. We're not gonna speak about all of

668
00:23:20,890 --> 00:23:22,330
them today because it would take we'd be

669
00:23:22,330 --> 00:23:24,890
on a podcast until until midnight. But you

670
00:23:24,890 --> 00:23:26,110
spoke to one of

671
00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:28,269
many aspects, which is,

672
00:23:28,730 --> 00:23:30,170
you know, you gotta watch out for your

673
00:23:30,170 --> 00:23:32,190
nervous system. I mean, it's a, you know,

674
00:23:32,250 --> 00:23:34,535
like, yes, there's this stereotypical kind of way

675
00:23:34,535 --> 00:23:36,855
that people go about this. But to your

676
00:23:36,855 --> 00:23:38,535
point, like, yeah, if I mean, if you

677
00:23:38,535 --> 00:23:40,535
are if you are trapped in your own

678
00:23:40,535 --> 00:23:42,855
personal hell when he's not in the room

679
00:23:42,855 --> 00:23:45,095
by you or sleeping on the floor sleeping

680
00:23:45,095 --> 00:23:46,555
on the floor in the room,

681
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,480
I've had guys do that. They'll set up

682
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,559
a air mattress next to the bed so

683
00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:51,779
that she knows

684
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,000
where he is and what he's doing. But,

685
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,940
yeah, you you bring up the point of

686
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,840
kinda where I wanna go with this is

687
00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,759
it's intricate and complex. I mean, you can't

688
00:23:59,759 --> 00:24:01,519
you can't just say, tell a couple, hey.

689
00:24:01,519 --> 00:24:03,404
Go do this. His acting out behavior is

690
00:24:03,404 --> 00:24:05,024
different. His past is different.

691
00:24:05,565 --> 00:24:07,804
How he was raised and his parents were

692
00:24:07,804 --> 00:24:08,304
different.

693
00:24:09,085 --> 00:24:12,125
The relational dynamic is different. How she how

694
00:24:12,125 --> 00:24:13,024
he got caught

695
00:24:13,325 --> 00:24:14,065
was different.

696
00:24:14,605 --> 00:24:16,859
Did he slip and when he did slip,

697
00:24:16,859 --> 00:24:18,619
how were the slips discovered? I mean, all

698
00:24:18,619 --> 00:24:21,179
of these things present unique challenges, and that's

699
00:24:21,179 --> 00:24:22,539
kinda what I wanted to get into, Jack.

700
00:24:22,539 --> 00:24:23,819
And again, I don't wanna get into the

701
00:24:23,819 --> 00:24:25,420
weeds here because this is a yeah. Like

702
00:24:25,420 --> 00:24:26,940
I said, this is a this is a

703
00:24:27,179 --> 00:24:28,240
we could do sixty

704
00:24:28,539 --> 00:24:31,625
sixty podcasts on the complexities of each of

705
00:24:31,625 --> 00:24:32,765
these unique situations.

706
00:24:33,224 --> 00:24:35,065
My that's not my point of this. My

707
00:24:35,065 --> 00:24:35,724
point is

708
00:24:36,664 --> 00:24:37,964
to speak psychologically

709
00:24:38,345 --> 00:24:40,424
to what couples are really gonna need to

710
00:24:40,424 --> 00:24:42,285
do to get past this because I think

711
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:44,700
the, you know, there's the magic and this

712
00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:47,340
is what really annoys me about about about

713
00:24:47,340 --> 00:24:49,500
the space is there's this, oh, if he

714
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:51,980
learns empathy then everything's gonna be okay. Oh,

715
00:24:51,980 --> 00:24:54,555
if he just gets sober then blank.

716
00:24:55,035 --> 00:24:57,515
If he and again, I think I don't

717
00:24:57,515 --> 00:24:59,934
I don't think these statements are really documented

718
00:24:59,994 --> 00:25:02,075
anywhere because we all know they're not true,

719
00:25:02,075 --> 00:25:03,994
but they are thrown around a lot that,

720
00:25:03,994 --> 00:25:06,315
oh, if he just got sober and learned

721
00:25:06,315 --> 00:25:08,950
some empathy that, and he crawls down and

722
00:25:08,950 --> 00:25:10,549
learns how to be in the pain with

723
00:25:10,549 --> 00:25:12,470
you, that you guys are going to heal.

724
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:15,130
And I am sorry. That is not true.

725
00:25:15,269 --> 00:25:17,509
You could learn how to empathize whether you

726
00:25:17,509 --> 00:25:19,029
could crawl down in the hole with her.

727
00:25:19,029 --> 00:25:20,549
You could get sober and you could do

728
00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:22,214
all of that in the first three months

729
00:25:22,294 --> 00:25:23,194
and that is

730
00:25:23,974 --> 00:25:25,974
not a guarantee that you two are gonna

731
00:25:25,974 --> 00:25:28,294
be in this thriving connected relationship with great

732
00:25:28,294 --> 00:25:29,894
communication that her nervous system's gonna be calmed

733
00:25:29,894 --> 00:25:31,815
down. I mean, that's just completely not true

734
00:25:31,815 --> 00:25:33,734
at all. There's so many more aspects to

735
00:25:33,734 --> 00:25:35,734
that. Jackie, what do you say as I'm

736
00:25:35,734 --> 00:25:38,039
trying to expand people's understanding of,

737
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:39,960
hey, don't hang your hat on some of

738
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,359
these things because there actually is no data

739
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,200
that proves you are gonna be okay if

740
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,420
he does get those things.

741
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,180
Yeah. I mean, some of that, like,

742
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,619
why don't they have empathy? They probably disconnected

743
00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:54,865
from that years ago. Mhmm. Like, they left

744
00:25:54,865 --> 00:25:57,025
that at 12 years old. Mhmm. Or younger.

745
00:25:57,025 --> 00:25:58,724
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. And so

746
00:25:59,025 --> 00:26:00,785
when you were saying that you like to

747
00:26:00,785 --> 00:26:02,625
change it from what are you recovering from

748
00:26:02,944 --> 00:26:03,924
recovering from,

749
00:26:04,384 --> 00:26:06,144
I also like to say, what are we

750
00:26:06,144 --> 00:26:06,644
recovering?

751
00:26:07,170 --> 00:26:09,970
Yeah. What are we recovering here? Right? And,

752
00:26:09,970 --> 00:26:11,670
typically, the answer is

753
00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:13,029
we're recovering

754
00:26:13,890 --> 00:26:16,150
the self. Mhmm. The self that

755
00:26:16,610 --> 00:26:18,150
was lied to in the messages,

756
00:26:18,610 --> 00:26:20,850
the self that was told all of these

757
00:26:20,850 --> 00:26:23,294
things are what you do, and you feel

758
00:26:23,294 --> 00:26:26,095
some peace and contentment and satisfaction in your

759
00:26:26,095 --> 00:26:26,595
life,

760
00:26:27,054 --> 00:26:29,375
which isn't what they're feeling because they're they're

761
00:26:29,375 --> 00:26:29,875
pursuing,

762
00:26:30,654 --> 00:26:33,054
thinking, okay. The next woman I sleep with

763
00:26:33,054 --> 00:26:34,034
is going to

764
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:37,519
finally fill that hole that I'm trying to

765
00:26:37,519 --> 00:26:39,519
fill with money and with women and with

766
00:26:39,519 --> 00:26:40,019
things

767
00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:41,779
and with other men's,

768
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,299
perceptions of me. Mhmm. And

769
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,559
and and so, yeah, that's that's also part

770
00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:50,100
of what we are recovering.

771
00:26:50,535 --> 00:26:51,035
Right.

772
00:26:51,815 --> 00:26:54,455
And and for both people, like the husband

773
00:26:54,455 --> 00:26:55,275
and the wife,

774
00:26:55,815 --> 00:26:57,815
they have to go through that recovery process.

775
00:26:57,815 --> 00:26:59,355
I don't know that our world

776
00:27:00,134 --> 00:27:01,734
I'll just I don't know the world. I

777
00:27:01,734 --> 00:27:03,414
don't haven't lived in other countries. So let

778
00:27:03,414 --> 00:27:04,720
me just speak to to our country. I

779
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,500
don't know that we do a good job

780
00:27:07,679 --> 00:27:08,819
growing up individuals,

781
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,359
healthy individuals. Yeah. I think a lot of

782
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,359
things would be different if that was our

783
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,460
focus. Mhmm. And so

784
00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:17,440
I think for both people, they're going to

785
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:18,179
have to

786
00:27:19,255 --> 00:27:21,335
figure out how did how did I land

787
00:27:21,335 --> 00:27:23,575
here. And, I mean, that's a that's a

788
00:27:23,575 --> 00:27:26,075
well timed place a question for a partner

789
00:27:26,534 --> 00:27:27,595
to ask. Like,

790
00:27:28,054 --> 00:27:29,815
why do you think or what about your

791
00:27:29,815 --> 00:27:32,214
story explains why you ended up marrying a

792
00:27:32,214 --> 00:27:34,829
sex addict Mhmm. Or whatever we're calling it.

793
00:27:35,309 --> 00:27:37,309
What got you here? Mhmm. They have to

794
00:27:37,309 --> 00:27:39,309
figure out that because if I don't ask

795
00:27:39,309 --> 00:27:40,750
the question, at some point, they're gonna ask

796
00:27:40,750 --> 00:27:41,809
themselves the question.

797
00:27:42,269 --> 00:27:44,190
So we also have to explore that question

798
00:27:44,190 --> 00:27:44,849
for partners.

799
00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:48,190
You know, the the addict is having to

800
00:27:48,190 --> 00:27:49,250
make sense of

801
00:27:49,565 --> 00:27:51,164
how did this come to be? How did

802
00:27:51,164 --> 00:27:53,484
I land up here? Because that was not

803
00:27:53,484 --> 00:27:56,065
what I was charting my path towards.

804
00:27:57,164 --> 00:27:58,365
It's a it's your

805
00:27:59,404 --> 00:28:00,924
and both part I I agree with you

806
00:28:00,924 --> 00:28:02,845
because there's a growth edge there for both

807
00:28:02,845 --> 00:28:04,609
of us. Right? I know exactly why I

808
00:28:04,609 --> 00:28:06,130
ended up here. I was raised in a

809
00:28:06,130 --> 00:28:08,309
performance based household where

810
00:28:09,009 --> 00:28:12,049
that was what you did. You you life

811
00:28:12,049 --> 00:28:14,690
was life was getting 1% better every day,

812
00:28:14,690 --> 00:28:16,929
and that is a very common message. Like

813
00:28:16,929 --> 00:28:18,390
you said, in this country,

814
00:28:19,224 --> 00:28:20,664
my daughter doesn't live in this country. She

815
00:28:20,664 --> 00:28:22,284
lives in another country, and

816
00:28:22,664 --> 00:28:23,144
I,

817
00:28:24,904 --> 00:28:26,744
I as much as I wish I got

818
00:28:26,744 --> 00:28:29,565
to see her more, I am not that

819
00:28:29,625 --> 00:28:32,024
mad about her not being in this country

820
00:28:32,024 --> 00:28:33,619
because down there,

821
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,720
they're just the energy is so different. It's

822
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,559
a you know, they're not performance based. No

823
00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:40,160
one no one cares what you have or

824
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,079
what you're gonna have. They care about who

825
00:28:42,079 --> 00:28:43,920
you are today, what kind of friend you

826
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,299
are. It's just a very different,

827
00:28:46,724 --> 00:28:49,365
you know, and, there's other you know, every

828
00:28:49,365 --> 00:28:51,125
country kinda has their own little ways. I'm

829
00:28:51,125 --> 00:28:52,484
sure they have their all their own little

830
00:28:52,484 --> 00:28:54,025
problems. But to your point,

831
00:28:55,365 --> 00:28:55,865
the

832
00:28:57,285 --> 00:28:59,849
I got here through a series of beliefs.

833
00:29:00,169 --> 00:29:03,130
My wife married somebody with those beliefs, and

834
00:29:03,130 --> 00:29:04,990
that is always kind of interesting is,

835
00:29:05,529 --> 00:29:08,429
now does she know that my belief set

836
00:29:08,490 --> 00:29:11,049
would create compulsive sexual behavior? No. She did

837
00:29:11,049 --> 00:29:12,250
not know that. If she knew that, she

838
00:29:12,250 --> 00:29:14,075
would would not have gotten with me. But

839
00:29:14,075 --> 00:29:16,315
she got with a with with somebody with

840
00:29:16,315 --> 00:29:18,634
my belief system and, you know, she's done

841
00:29:18,634 --> 00:29:20,234
a ton of her work. Yeah. There's tons

842
00:29:20,234 --> 00:29:21,694
of there's tons of codependency

843
00:29:21,994 --> 00:29:24,595
there. She's been she was trained to her

844
00:29:24,714 --> 00:29:26,634
she was raised in a very religious house,

845
00:29:26,634 --> 00:29:28,900
right? So everything was always something outside of

846
00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:31,380
you. You you are not important. It's God

847
00:29:31,380 --> 00:29:34,420
that's important. It's Jesus that's important. It's, you

848
00:29:34,420 --> 00:29:35,400
know, so it was always

849
00:29:35,860 --> 00:29:38,900
you can't solve problems. Things outside of you

850
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:41,654
are going to solve problems. And so she

851
00:29:41,654 --> 00:29:43,414
found me very attractive because I am a

852
00:29:43,414 --> 00:29:46,855
professional problem solver. I'm very good at solving

853
00:29:46,855 --> 00:29:47,835
problems and

854
00:29:48,295 --> 00:29:50,455
and have I I mean, honestly, when she

855
00:29:50,455 --> 00:29:52,055
met me, I had no problems. You know,

856
00:29:52,055 --> 00:29:54,315
I built enough businesses to the point where,

857
00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:57,519
I could I could kind of avoid I

858
00:29:57,519 --> 00:29:59,119
could buy my way out of problems. And

859
00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:01,599
so to her, right, that was like, oh,

860
00:30:01,599 --> 00:30:03,279
wow. Perfect. This was where I was supposed

861
00:30:03,279 --> 00:30:05,440
to land. So to your point, now here,

862
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,039
her and I are on a whole separate

863
00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:08,480
journey which kinda leads me to the next

864
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,019
topic of discussion which is

865
00:30:10,424 --> 00:30:13,545
what what is recovery actually. Right? And so

866
00:30:13,545 --> 00:30:15,725
I love I like that segue way is,

867
00:30:16,025 --> 00:30:18,125
you know, you know, she should be asking

868
00:30:18,184 --> 00:30:20,105
why would I get with someone like him.

869
00:30:20,105 --> 00:30:22,985
Right? Because it shows her her growth edge

870
00:30:22,985 --> 00:30:24,424
as well. Right? So now her and I

871
00:30:24,424 --> 00:30:25,705
are both taking a step back, and we're

872
00:30:25,705 --> 00:30:27,920
like, okay. I've got my work to figure

873
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,940
out why am I latched on to these

874
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,759
things and why is it hard? Because, I

875
00:30:31,759 --> 00:30:34,099
mean, I'll be completely transparent with you, Jackie.

876
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,460
There are acting out,

877
00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:37,539
brain pathways

878
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,464
that I miss, man. I miss that I'm

879
00:30:40,464 --> 00:30:42,304
pissed I can't go get attention in that

880
00:30:42,304 --> 00:30:45,265
way. I loved it. It felt so great

881
00:30:45,265 --> 00:30:47,265
to get the spotlight on me in that

882
00:30:47,265 --> 00:30:49,825
way and have all these things said about

883
00:30:49,825 --> 00:30:50,325
me,

884
00:30:50,625 --> 00:30:52,144
and I am mad that I can't do

885
00:30:52,144 --> 00:30:54,420
that anymore, you know, obviously, not my authentic

886
00:30:54,420 --> 00:30:56,340
self is mad. My my egos in me

887
00:30:56,340 --> 00:30:56,980
are mad.

888
00:30:57,539 --> 00:30:59,220
But nonetheless, now we have had to take

889
00:30:59,220 --> 00:31:00,820
the step back, and I've had to say,

890
00:31:00,820 --> 00:31:01,320
okay.

891
00:31:02,420 --> 00:31:04,580
What beliefs do I wanna believe? Because the

892
00:31:04,580 --> 00:31:07,065
ones that I was believing are not I'm

893
00:31:07,065 --> 00:31:08,424
not proud of the legacy that I was

894
00:31:08,424 --> 00:31:10,845
living. But now she's having to ask herself

895
00:31:11,224 --> 00:31:12,825
a set of questions as well, and I

896
00:31:12,825 --> 00:31:13,484
think that's

897
00:31:14,184 --> 00:31:17,384
relational recovery. Am I right? Mhmm. Yeah. I

898
00:31:17,384 --> 00:31:18,904
mean, I I think part of that

899
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:23,190
you know, I I've worked with partners who

900
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:25,049
are very successful women themselves,

901
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:28,230
and they can't they're very successful. They're very

902
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:30,549
intelligent. They just can't figure out what happened

903
00:31:30,549 --> 00:31:31,369
in their marriage.

904
00:31:32,150 --> 00:31:34,230
And so they're like, this is one area

905
00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:36,025
of my life that is a disaster and

906
00:31:36,025 --> 00:31:37,725
that I don't know what to do about.

907
00:31:38,184 --> 00:31:39,005
Other women,

908
00:31:39,384 --> 00:31:41,625
you know, they do marry into because in

909
00:31:41,625 --> 00:31:42,825
a lot of these action movies

910
00:31:43,705 --> 00:31:45,305
I mean, their focus is on the women

911
00:31:45,305 --> 00:31:47,785
in terms of obtaining them, not about who

912
00:31:47,785 --> 00:31:49,965
these women are as individuals. Right?

913
00:31:50,470 --> 00:31:52,549
And so we also find some of those

914
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:54,329
women who are looking to

915
00:31:55,029 --> 00:31:56,970
marry well and not necessarily

916
00:31:57,909 --> 00:32:00,389
figure out who they are and what do

917
00:32:00,389 --> 00:32:02,869
they wanna pursue in their life. That gets

918
00:32:02,869 --> 00:32:04,454
missed a lot, especially in

919
00:32:04,855 --> 00:32:05,355
religious

920
00:32:05,815 --> 00:32:06,794
communities because

921
00:32:07,654 --> 00:32:09,595
most in at least in patriarchal

922
00:32:10,134 --> 00:32:10,634
religions,

923
00:32:11,335 --> 00:32:14,454
we're not asking women who you are. We're

924
00:32:14,454 --> 00:32:16,615
telling them the most important thing you can

925
00:32:16,615 --> 00:32:18,714
be is a wife and a mother.

926
00:32:19,015 --> 00:32:22,029
Mhmm. And, I mean, the truth is not

927
00:32:22,029 --> 00:32:23,549
not all women are cut out to be

928
00:32:23,549 --> 00:32:24,049
moms,

929
00:32:24,430 --> 00:32:26,450
and not all women are gonna get married.

930
00:32:26,670 --> 00:32:29,070
Mhmm. And so they have to figure out

931
00:32:29,230 --> 00:32:30,369
like, again, sometimes

932
00:32:30,750 --> 00:32:33,549
those things external are defining who they are

933
00:32:33,549 --> 00:32:34,850
or who they should be,

934
00:32:35,404 --> 00:32:38,044
but that's an internal process. We can't define

935
00:32:38,044 --> 00:32:39,424
that that self

936
00:32:39,724 --> 00:32:41,664
externally, or we're always gonna

937
00:32:41,964 --> 00:32:43,345
run into some problem

938
00:32:44,044 --> 00:32:46,144
that stops us, and we're like, okay.

939
00:32:46,524 --> 00:32:48,044
And and I think sometimes that's where it's

940
00:32:48,044 --> 00:32:49,559
like, okay. Well, what else can I

941
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,320
obtain? What else can I do to fix

942
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:53,820
this,

943
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,160
instead of going inward? Mhmm. Because I think

944
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:58,220
for a lot of people,

945
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,880
the exciting work comes, but sometimes they're very

946
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,420
scared of going inward.

947
00:33:04,144 --> 00:33:05,444
Yeah. It's a it's,

948
00:33:05,825 --> 00:33:08,304
well, I mean, if you especially for especially

949
00:33:08,304 --> 00:33:10,464
for a lot of women because men are,

950
00:33:10,464 --> 00:33:11,044
I think,

951
00:33:11,585 --> 00:33:13,904
the you know, encouraging men to become self

952
00:33:13,904 --> 00:33:15,744
made is definitely more of a thing that

953
00:33:15,744 --> 00:33:18,244
we see happen for men. It's definitely more

954
00:33:18,380 --> 00:33:20,700
on social media and the, you know, self

955
00:33:20,700 --> 00:33:22,860
made males. You know, it's it's it's we're

956
00:33:22,860 --> 00:33:24,619
trying to catch up for lost time with

957
00:33:24,619 --> 00:33:26,700
women and and and change that narrative, and

958
00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:27,820
we're doing a pretty good job, I think.

959
00:33:27,820 --> 00:33:29,820
Yeah. Yes. But, you know, we have we

960
00:33:29,820 --> 00:33:33,360
have hundreds and thousands of years to undo

961
00:33:33,615 --> 00:33:35,295
some of that, especially kind of like you

962
00:33:35,295 --> 00:33:36,595
said, religious,

963
00:33:37,295 --> 00:33:37,795
sex,

964
00:33:38,654 --> 00:33:40,815
you know, those communities, they, you know, there

965
00:33:40,815 --> 00:33:41,315
is

966
00:33:41,615 --> 00:33:43,375
it's hanging on a little bit longer there

967
00:33:43,375 --> 00:33:45,615
just because of how it's been written. Now

968
00:33:45,615 --> 00:33:47,615
they're not saying, oh, women are nothing. That's

969
00:33:47,615 --> 00:33:49,029
not what they're saying. It's just, you know,

970
00:33:49,029 --> 00:33:51,349
the the books are written as all the

971
00:33:51,349 --> 00:33:53,369
women being this nurturing motherly,

972
00:33:54,150 --> 00:33:56,069
figure. Right? And so Mhmm. They're just they're

973
00:33:56,069 --> 00:33:58,470
not getting that message of what are you,

974
00:33:58,470 --> 00:34:00,390
you know, and I'm gonna I'm gonna somebody

975
00:34:00,390 --> 00:34:01,829
needs to get credit for this. I don't

976
00:34:01,829 --> 00:34:03,269
know who invented this, but I'm sure you've

977
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:04,250
heard of it, Jackie.

978
00:34:05,035 --> 00:34:06,575
You know, when when guys

979
00:34:07,195 --> 00:34:08,954
are in my program, they're all kind of,

980
00:34:09,195 --> 00:34:12,155
talking about how how tough this is. It's

981
00:34:12,155 --> 00:34:13,454
because they really botched

982
00:34:13,835 --> 00:34:15,515
the system up when they did what they

983
00:34:15,515 --> 00:34:17,994
did. There's there's somebody who invented the and

984
00:34:17,994 --> 00:34:19,409
again, I don't know who did it, but

985
00:34:19,489 --> 00:34:21,909
it was t's, a's, and h's.

986
00:34:22,449 --> 00:34:24,530
So for everybody who's listening to this via

987
00:34:24,530 --> 00:34:27,670
audio, so there's relationships that are a t

988
00:34:27,889 --> 00:34:30,949
shape, right, where the one partner is is

989
00:34:31,489 --> 00:34:33,809
on top of the other partner. So imagine

990
00:34:33,809 --> 00:34:36,414
on that t alphabet t, if you took

991
00:34:36,414 --> 00:34:38,494
that bottom of the t out, the top

992
00:34:38,494 --> 00:34:39,855
of the t would fall down, the whole

993
00:34:39,855 --> 00:34:40,755
thing would collapse.

994
00:34:41,214 --> 00:34:42,494
And there's a lot of relationships that are

995
00:34:42,494 --> 00:34:44,174
set up that way where one person basically

996
00:34:44,174 --> 00:34:45,534
runs the show and the other person's just

997
00:34:45,534 --> 00:34:47,614
kind of around for the ride. Then there's

998
00:34:47,614 --> 00:34:50,255
a's. Right? So picture the letter a, capital

999
00:34:50,255 --> 00:34:52,660
letter a. So they're now leaning on each

1000
00:34:52,660 --> 00:34:53,860
other. So, okay. This is a little bit

1001
00:34:53,860 --> 00:34:55,860
healthier here. There's, you know, one partner. If

1002
00:34:55,860 --> 00:34:57,380
they pulled away, the other partner would fall

1003
00:34:57,380 --> 00:34:59,140
down. If the other partner pulled away, then

1004
00:34:59,140 --> 00:35:00,579
the other part would fall down. Right? So

1005
00:35:00,579 --> 00:35:02,119
there's some there's some cohesiveness

1006
00:35:02,660 --> 00:35:05,140
here, and both people are bringing together something.

1007
00:35:05,539 --> 00:35:07,635
But regardless, you still pull one side out

1008
00:35:07,635 --> 00:35:08,775
and the whole thing collapses.

1009
00:35:09,474 --> 00:35:10,675
And it's funny. I think a lot of

1010
00:35:10,675 --> 00:35:13,094
people see a's as a healthy

1011
00:35:13,795 --> 00:35:16,055
historically have seen it as a healthy relationship.

1012
00:35:16,114 --> 00:35:17,795
But, again, how healthy is it when you

1013
00:35:17,795 --> 00:35:20,849
yank one side and there's total collapse of

1014
00:35:20,849 --> 00:35:22,769
the, you know, is is that really what

1015
00:35:22,930 --> 00:35:25,170
is that the healthiest way to live? Or

1016
00:35:25,170 --> 00:35:27,250
there's h's. Right? And so picture of the

1017
00:35:27,250 --> 00:35:29,730
capital letter h. Right? There's an independent party

1018
00:35:29,730 --> 00:35:31,490
thriving who knows who they are and loves

1019
00:35:31,490 --> 00:35:33,490
who they are. Over here, there's another independent

1020
00:35:33,490 --> 00:35:34,849
party who knows who they are and loves

1021
00:35:34,849 --> 00:35:36,385
who they are. And then there's this connection

1022
00:35:36,385 --> 00:35:38,464
between them making the letter h, and it's

1023
00:35:38,464 --> 00:35:40,304
just a the connection's as simple as merit.

1024
00:35:40,304 --> 00:35:42,964
Hey. We're going to do this amazing life

1025
00:35:43,264 --> 00:35:45,924
together, and together, we will have an enhanced,

1026
00:35:46,704 --> 00:35:48,590
you know, my life has and it's gotten

1027
00:35:48,590 --> 00:35:50,590
better with the addition of you, and your

1028
00:35:50,590 --> 00:35:52,269
life got better with the addition of me.

1029
00:35:52,269 --> 00:35:53,789
Hey, man. I also know that you don't

1030
00:35:53,789 --> 00:35:55,550
need me, and I have the peace knowing

1031
00:35:55,550 --> 00:35:56,769
that I don't need you.

1032
00:35:57,949 --> 00:35:59,869
That is a new idea of relationship. I

1033
00:35:59,869 --> 00:36:01,150
think there are still a lot of people

1034
00:36:01,150 --> 00:36:03,485
who who that scares them. I'm not sure

1035
00:36:03,485 --> 00:36:05,405
why it scares them. Maybe you can speak

1036
00:36:05,405 --> 00:36:07,244
to that. But I think a lot I

1037
00:36:07,244 --> 00:36:08,605
I think to your point, a lot of

1038
00:36:08,605 --> 00:36:10,465
this is history and culture

1039
00:36:10,845 --> 00:36:12,065
teeing us up

1040
00:36:12,445 --> 00:36:14,845
for relationships to kind of not go well,

1041
00:36:14,845 --> 00:36:17,599
and then surprise, surprise, infidelity happens, and then

1042
00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:19,360
it really doesn't go well, and we can't

1043
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:20,739
even find a way to get out.

1044
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:22,720
I don't know if you've heard of those

1045
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:24,880
letter analogies before. I'm sure you have.

1046
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:26,260
Yeah. What,

1047
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,960
speak to your spin on that because I

1048
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,220
do think to recover from this, I think

1049
00:36:32,295 --> 00:36:34,855
any sort of dependency that the that the

1050
00:36:35,014 --> 00:36:37,335
she that the betrayed partner has on her

1051
00:36:37,335 --> 00:36:37,835
husband

1052
00:36:38,135 --> 00:36:40,295
is it causes a ton of problems. It's

1053
00:36:40,295 --> 00:36:41,974
just it's it is you know, you're trying

1054
00:36:41,974 --> 00:36:43,734
to rely on somebody who has proven to

1055
00:36:43,734 --> 00:36:45,034
be temporarily unreliable.

1056
00:36:46,489 --> 00:36:49,630
That's I mean, that's a mess. Right? Yeah.

1057
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:52,250
Yeah. So, I mean, I think but when

1058
00:36:52,250 --> 00:36:53,150
we get beyond,

1059
00:36:54,650 --> 00:36:56,030
we have to stay together

1060
00:36:57,210 --> 00:37:00,405
or I need you for whatever reason or,

1061
00:37:00,405 --> 00:37:02,565
you know, for the male, I need you

1062
00:37:02,565 --> 00:37:03,845
to take care of the kids and make

1063
00:37:03,845 --> 00:37:06,405
all of this other stuff that is part

1064
00:37:06,405 --> 00:37:08,085
of my appearance. I need you to help

1065
00:37:08,085 --> 00:37:08,585
that

1066
00:37:08,965 --> 00:37:11,065
function and go along and look good.

1067
00:37:13,690 --> 00:37:15,289
It we get in the way because we

1068
00:37:15,289 --> 00:37:16,730
need each other. We get in the way

1069
00:37:16,730 --> 00:37:18,890
of choosing each other. We might have chosen

1070
00:37:18,890 --> 00:37:20,809
each other in the beginning. Most people chose

1071
00:37:20,809 --> 00:37:22,349
each other in the beginning.

1072
00:37:23,130 --> 00:37:25,530
But then we kind of devolve almost into

1073
00:37:25,530 --> 00:37:26,670
these arranged marriages.

1074
00:37:28,204 --> 00:37:31,344
And nobody's choosing everybody anybody in that situation.

1075
00:37:31,405 --> 00:37:33,244
Right? We're doing what needs to be done.

1076
00:37:33,244 --> 00:37:33,744
And

1077
00:37:34,364 --> 00:37:37,085
so, yeah, I can see where infidelity starts

1078
00:37:37,085 --> 00:37:37,824
to come in

1079
00:37:38,445 --> 00:37:41,085
because we're searching for some novelty. Both people

1080
00:37:41,085 --> 00:37:43,610
are. They're looking for something that's out of

1081
00:37:43,610 --> 00:37:45,849
the normal routine of the day in, day

1082
00:37:45,849 --> 00:37:46,989
out of their life

1083
00:37:47,369 --> 00:37:49,150
because that's not very exciting.

1084
00:37:49,450 --> 00:37:49,950
Mhmm.

1085
00:37:50,489 --> 00:37:50,989
And

1086
00:37:52,010 --> 00:37:54,250
now I think we can like, when we

1087
00:37:54,250 --> 00:37:56,250
start to do that internal work and we

1088
00:37:56,250 --> 00:37:58,695
are recovering that authentic self

1089
00:37:59,234 --> 00:38:01,074
that we lost a long time ago or

1090
00:38:01,074 --> 00:38:02,755
we lost parts of. Maybe we didn't lose

1091
00:38:02,755 --> 00:38:04,034
all of it, but we lost parts of

1092
00:38:04,034 --> 00:38:04,534
it.

1093
00:38:05,074 --> 00:38:06,994
And we start to reclaim it, and it

1094
00:38:06,994 --> 00:38:07,894
starts to

1095
00:38:08,275 --> 00:38:10,514
show up and drive things instead of the

1096
00:38:10,514 --> 00:38:13,010
ego driving things or fear driving things,

1097
00:38:14,829 --> 00:38:15,890
or this need

1098
00:38:16,269 --> 00:38:18,910
for something for this person. I need you

1099
00:38:18,910 --> 00:38:21,329
because I'm financially dependent or whatever.

1100
00:38:22,910 --> 00:38:25,630
When we start to move away from those

1101
00:38:25,630 --> 00:38:28,315
things that are in the couples together,

1102
00:38:29,494 --> 00:38:31,755
not only we have to have two individuals,

1103
00:38:31,815 --> 00:38:32,714
like the h.

1104
00:38:33,414 --> 00:38:34,315
Like and

1105
00:38:34,614 --> 00:38:37,335
her being her authentic self calls you out

1106
00:38:37,335 --> 00:38:38,795
to be your authentic self.

1107
00:38:39,174 --> 00:38:41,255
And likewise, you call her out to be

1108
00:38:41,255 --> 00:38:41,755
herself.

1109
00:38:42,530 --> 00:38:44,309
And nobody's gonna do it perfectly,

1110
00:38:44,769 --> 00:38:46,690
but we can start to remind each other,

1111
00:38:46,690 --> 00:38:47,429
like, hey.

1112
00:38:47,969 --> 00:38:50,530
What what are you doing? You're strong. You're

1113
00:38:50,530 --> 00:38:51,030
smart.

1114
00:38:51,329 --> 00:38:52,769
Like, come on. I know you can do

1115
00:38:52,769 --> 00:38:54,690
this. Why are you why are you falling

1116
00:38:54,690 --> 00:38:56,635
apart? Or why, Again, this is not early

1117
00:38:56,635 --> 00:38:57,835
in recovery. You would not say to a

1118
00:38:57,835 --> 00:38:59,375
partner, why are you falling apart?

1119
00:39:01,194 --> 00:39:03,434
Right? Their whole life just got turned upside

1120
00:39:03,434 --> 00:39:05,194
down, and they were betrayed by somebody that

1121
00:39:05,194 --> 00:39:08,074
they love. Mhmm. But down the road, couples

1122
00:39:08,074 --> 00:39:10,154
start to find that language in a way

1123
00:39:10,154 --> 00:39:12,340
that they can joke with each other, but

1124
00:39:12,340 --> 00:39:14,039
also call each other into

1125
00:39:14,579 --> 00:39:16,039
who they are and who

1126
00:39:16,340 --> 00:39:18,119
we've grown to be.

1127
00:39:18,659 --> 00:39:21,239
And I also say at that point because

1128
00:39:21,940 --> 00:39:24,500
because I think when we are pursuing things

1129
00:39:24,500 --> 00:39:26,355
external to us, whatever that is,

1130
00:39:26,914 --> 00:39:28,855
there's always gonna be an edge to that.

1131
00:39:28,994 --> 00:39:30,755
I mean, at some point, there's only so

1132
00:39:30,755 --> 00:39:32,914
many women to sleep with before you still

1133
00:39:32,914 --> 00:39:34,775
wake up the next day and you're like,

1134
00:39:36,594 --> 00:39:38,914
I still am kinda feeling empty. That didn't

1135
00:39:38,914 --> 00:39:39,414
quite

1136
00:39:40,099 --> 00:39:42,340
make me feel good enough. Maybe I'll go

1137
00:39:42,340 --> 00:39:42,840
pursue

1138
00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:45,619
the praise of other men. Right? But at

1139
00:39:45,619 --> 00:39:47,460
some point, you're like, yeah, it's not quite

1140
00:39:47,460 --> 00:39:47,960
working.

1141
00:39:48,340 --> 00:39:50,179
That's usually when I start to see people

1142
00:39:50,179 --> 00:39:52,119
if they haven't come in because their relationship

1143
00:39:52,660 --> 00:39:53,559
blew up because

1144
00:39:54,275 --> 00:39:55,974
of a disclosure or a discovery.

1145
00:39:58,275 --> 00:40:00,755
But when we're looking at who that self

1146
00:40:00,755 --> 00:40:03,555
is and growing that and that evolves every

1147
00:40:03,555 --> 00:40:04,055
year

1148
00:40:04,515 --> 00:40:05,894
in one way or another,

1149
00:40:06,289 --> 00:40:08,230
that's endless novelty. Mhmm.

1150
00:40:09,809 --> 00:40:11,969
And that for in a relationship where there's

1151
00:40:11,969 --> 00:40:12,789
also that

1152
00:40:13,090 --> 00:40:14,230
security because

1153
00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:17,329
we are choosing each other. Even after all

1154
00:40:17,329 --> 00:40:18,849
the shit we've been through can I say

1155
00:40:18,849 --> 00:40:21,445
that? Yep. Okay. Even after all the shit

1156
00:40:21,445 --> 00:40:23,284
we've been through, at the end of this,

1157
00:40:23,284 --> 00:40:24,505
we chose each other.

1158
00:40:25,284 --> 00:40:25,784
And

1159
00:40:26,885 --> 00:40:29,284
that's some powerful stuff. That's some security and

1160
00:40:29,284 --> 00:40:30,824
some safety that is reestablished,

1161
00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:33,450
and we have a

1162
00:40:34,789 --> 00:40:36,090
a formula for

1163
00:40:37,430 --> 00:40:38,730
ongoing novelty.

1164
00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:40,230
Mhmm. Yeah. The the

1165
00:40:41,670 --> 00:40:43,829
what you said is and this is a

1166
00:40:43,829 --> 00:40:46,315
sensitive topic, and I'd love you're probably well,

1167
00:40:46,315 --> 00:40:48,074
I don't know. We're both really direct. Maybe

1168
00:40:48,074 --> 00:40:49,375
we'll both butcher it.

1169
00:40:49,755 --> 00:40:51,515
We'll try to censor each other and make

1170
00:40:51,515 --> 00:40:53,515
that but what you're you're hitting on a

1171
00:40:53,515 --> 00:40:54,414
topic that

1172
00:40:54,875 --> 00:40:57,454
everyone's scared to talk about. And,

1173
00:40:58,569 --> 00:40:59,929
my wife and I got to a point

1174
00:40:59,929 --> 00:41:01,609
where we were able to talk about it

1175
00:41:01,609 --> 00:41:04,109
and finally, she wasn't she she wasn't,

1176
00:41:04,730 --> 00:41:06,409
taking offense to it. So for the men

1177
00:41:06,409 --> 00:41:08,409
listening to this, just so you know, I

1178
00:41:08,409 --> 00:41:10,889
did not really breach this topic of discussion

1179
00:41:10,889 --> 00:41:12,809
with my wife until we were two years

1180
00:41:12,809 --> 00:41:15,005
in. So if you are listening to this

1181
00:41:15,005 --> 00:41:16,845
and you are thinking about breaching this topic

1182
00:41:16,845 --> 00:41:18,605
of discussion and you are not and you

1183
00:41:18,605 --> 00:41:20,045
are not at least a year in, probably

1184
00:41:20,045 --> 00:41:21,965
closer to two years in, I would highly

1185
00:41:21,965 --> 00:41:24,605
recommend not bringing this up. This is this

1186
00:41:24,605 --> 00:41:26,204
is something you could talk to your therapist

1187
00:41:26,204 --> 00:41:28,125
or your couple's therapist about. This is not

1188
00:41:28,125 --> 00:41:28,625
a

1189
00:41:28,949 --> 00:41:29,449
living

1190
00:41:29,909 --> 00:41:31,909
room, a bedroom conversation. This is something to

1191
00:41:31,909 --> 00:41:32,809
do with a mediator.

1192
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:34,710
So but, Jackie, we need to talk to

1193
00:41:34,710 --> 00:41:36,469
it because it is it's the truth. It

1194
00:41:36,469 --> 00:41:37,690
really is the truth.

1195
00:41:39,429 --> 00:41:41,269
As humans, we create realities. And as you

1196
00:41:41,269 --> 00:41:43,425
can imagine, when you cheat on your wife,

1197
00:41:43,425 --> 00:41:45,825
she's going to create a reality where you

1198
00:41:45,825 --> 00:41:46,325
are,

1199
00:41:47,025 --> 00:41:49,184
a liar. You have the capability of lying

1200
00:41:49,184 --> 00:41:50,704
to someone that you love most. You have

1201
00:41:50,704 --> 00:41:53,184
the capability of lying and having her not

1202
00:41:53,184 --> 00:41:55,039
know that you're lying. Right? So think about

1203
00:41:55,039 --> 00:41:57,139
this. This is all testing in her reality.

1204
00:41:57,679 --> 00:41:58,179
She

1205
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,159
has she might have the idea that you

1206
00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:02,000
aren't very attracted to her anymore, that you

1207
00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:03,300
she has become boring.

1208
00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:06,159
Maybe she's too old, she's too fat, she's

1209
00:42:06,159 --> 00:42:06,900
too wrinkly,

1210
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:08,739
that you're into younger women,

1211
00:42:09,119 --> 00:42:09,494
that,

1212
00:42:10,055 --> 00:42:10,555
she,

1213
00:42:12,135 --> 00:42:13,815
you know, the the you know, anyways, my

1214
00:42:13,815 --> 00:42:15,575
point is she is going to have a

1215
00:42:15,575 --> 00:42:16,075
reality

1216
00:42:16,615 --> 00:42:17,974
full of the stuff that I just said,

1217
00:42:17,974 --> 00:42:19,175
and that's not on a clock. I would

1218
00:42:19,175 --> 00:42:20,535
say that most women listening to this are,

1219
00:42:20,535 --> 00:42:22,954
like, yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. And so

1220
00:42:23,335 --> 00:42:25,469
so my I'm bringing this up, they say,

1221
00:42:26,750 --> 00:42:28,670
she is now gonna have to be with

1222
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:29,170
you

1223
00:42:29,469 --> 00:42:32,609
with that reality that she's living with.

1224
00:42:32,989 --> 00:42:35,550
But Jackie, there's, there's another there's other few

1225
00:42:35,550 --> 00:42:36,849
things that we need to

1226
00:42:37,150 --> 00:42:38,369
call out which is

1227
00:42:38,704 --> 00:42:40,965
there's other beliefs that she's gonna have, which

1228
00:42:41,344 --> 00:42:42,945
is any guy who could do this to

1229
00:42:42,945 --> 00:42:43,445
me

1230
00:42:44,065 --> 00:42:45,125
is a blank.

1231
00:42:47,184 --> 00:42:49,985
Guys who guys who look at porn are

1232
00:42:49,985 --> 00:42:52,704
a blank. Right? And so if you have

1233
00:42:52,704 --> 00:42:53,525
these beliefs,

1234
00:42:55,269 --> 00:42:57,829
I don't know if you can I don't

1235
00:42:57,829 --> 00:42:59,829
I don't think your relationship can't I I

1236
00:42:59,829 --> 00:43:01,510
think the beliefs need to be changed or

1237
00:43:01,510 --> 00:43:03,510
your relationship will you'll hit these buttchels? I

1238
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:05,030
mean, because think about it. If you believe

1239
00:43:05,030 --> 00:43:06,569
that every guy who does this

1240
00:43:06,934 --> 00:43:09,574
is inconsiderate and doesn't doesn't think women are

1241
00:43:09,574 --> 00:43:11,574
equal, you know, they think they they think

1242
00:43:11,574 --> 00:43:13,494
less of women. They don't respect women. They

1243
00:43:13,494 --> 00:43:16,215
objectify women. He's gonna be checking out your

1244
00:43:16,215 --> 00:43:18,534
sister. He's gonna be checking out your he's

1245
00:43:18,534 --> 00:43:19,914
gonna be checking out your daughter's

1246
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,360
friends, right, like so if that is what

1247
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:23,980
you think this guy is,

1248
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:26,599
Jackie, come on, you can't you can't have

1249
00:43:26,599 --> 00:43:28,679
a thriving marriage if that's what you think.

1250
00:43:28,679 --> 00:43:30,440
And so I mean, you know that The

1251
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,840
successful outcome would be to end that marriage.

1252
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,079
Yeah. Correct. Your sister say, keep your daughter

1253
00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:35,900
safe Correct.

1254
00:43:36,255 --> 00:43:38,034
And move away from that. Right?

1255
00:43:38,574 --> 00:43:40,494
Yes. It's a it is and and and,

1256
00:43:40,494 --> 00:43:43,315
Jackie, you're hitting on the thing that people

1257
00:43:43,855 --> 00:43:46,094
this needs to be discussed. And here's the

1258
00:43:46,094 --> 00:43:47,775
reason I think people wanna shy away from

1259
00:43:47,775 --> 00:43:50,130
it is a lot of these ladies, Jackie,

1260
00:43:50,130 --> 00:43:52,929
don't wanna change their belief system. They want

1261
00:43:52,929 --> 00:43:54,789
guys who look at porn to be that.

1262
00:43:54,849 --> 00:43:57,010
They want cheaters to be men like that.

1263
00:43:57,010 --> 00:43:58,849
And so, like, it's really hard for them

1264
00:43:58,849 --> 00:44:00,690
to, like, oh, I don't wanna soften that

1265
00:44:00,690 --> 00:44:02,204
belief. Like, guys who do that, they are

1266
00:44:02,204 --> 00:44:03,804
that. And guys who look at porn, they

1267
00:44:03,804 --> 00:44:06,224
are and so but again, here's the challenge,

1268
00:44:06,444 --> 00:44:09,005
ladies. You're married to a guy who did

1269
00:44:09,005 --> 00:44:11,344
that, so you have to face the facts.

1270
00:44:11,644 --> 00:44:13,724
Is he not one of those guys or

1271
00:44:13,724 --> 00:44:15,264
is he? And if he is,

1272
00:44:16,170 --> 00:44:17,609
do you really think your meal to have

1273
00:44:17,609 --> 00:44:18,989
a thriving marriage

1274
00:44:20,010 --> 00:44:22,730
under those under the under that new belief

1275
00:44:22,730 --> 00:44:24,650
system? If he is one of those men

1276
00:44:24,650 --> 00:44:25,710
and those men

1277
00:44:26,010 --> 00:44:26,750
are this,

1278
00:44:27,369 --> 00:44:29,289
come on. Why like and that is one

1279
00:44:29,289 --> 00:44:30,969
thing, Jackie, it drives me crazy in this

1280
00:44:30,969 --> 00:44:32,864
field is, like, why aren't we speaking to

1281
00:44:32,864 --> 00:44:33,684
that? Like,

1282
00:44:34,144 --> 00:44:36,485
you if the significance of these behaviors

1283
00:44:36,785 --> 00:44:39,265
equals that, do you really think you're gonna

1284
00:44:39,265 --> 00:44:40,785
be able to have a thriving marriage if

1285
00:44:40,785 --> 00:44:43,285
that's the significance of what he's done? And,

1286
00:44:44,030 --> 00:44:45,469
I have my belief as to why people

1287
00:44:45,469 --> 00:44:47,489
don't hit this. I think it's an uncomfortable

1288
00:44:47,550 --> 00:44:49,710
conversation. I think women do not wanna be

1289
00:44:49,710 --> 00:44:51,469
asked to change the significance of this because

1290
00:44:51,469 --> 00:44:53,630
they are pissed and they disagree with all

1291
00:44:53,630 --> 00:44:55,070
of it. And so to asking them to

1292
00:44:55,070 --> 00:44:57,525
kind of soften their belief system is like,

1293
00:44:57,764 --> 00:44:59,844
why? I don't wanna change my belief system.

1294
00:44:59,844 --> 00:45:01,525
This is messed up. The guys do this.

1295
00:45:01,525 --> 00:45:03,625
I agree with all of that. And

1296
00:45:04,324 --> 00:45:06,484
isn't there a mountains of evidence to suggest

1297
00:45:06,484 --> 00:45:08,824
that the guys doing this are not

1298
00:45:09,605 --> 00:45:12,539
sickos, perverts, hate women, hate that you know,

1299
00:45:12,699 --> 00:45:14,460
don't we do you, like, is your is

1300
00:45:14,539 --> 00:45:15,980
don't we have enough evidence to suggest that

1301
00:45:15,980 --> 00:45:18,559
your husband actually doesn't fall into that category?

1302
00:45:19,179 --> 00:45:20,699
Are you following what I'm saying, Jackie? Is

1303
00:45:20,699 --> 00:45:22,219
there any fallacy to what I'm hitting at?

1304
00:45:22,219 --> 00:45:24,619
Because I really do. Like, we kept hitting

1305
00:45:24,619 --> 00:45:26,059
these things. I kept telling my wife. I'm

1306
00:45:26,059 --> 00:45:27,980
like, honey, if you think that I did

1307
00:45:27,980 --> 00:45:30,164
that for those reasons, I don't know if

1308
00:45:30,164 --> 00:45:31,684
we're gonna be able to have a great

1309
00:45:31,684 --> 00:45:32,184
marriage.

1310
00:45:33,845 --> 00:45:34,905
Those men exist.

1311
00:45:35,445 --> 00:45:37,445
They're out there, and they do tend to

1312
00:45:37,445 --> 00:45:38,105
get married.

1313
00:45:38,965 --> 00:45:41,204
But you are right that that's gonna be

1314
00:45:41,204 --> 00:45:43,650
a hard marriage to thrive in as the

1315
00:45:43,650 --> 00:45:44,789
female counterpart.

1316
00:45:45,329 --> 00:45:48,469
Mhmm. And sometimes I see these partners

1317
00:45:49,010 --> 00:45:51,569
in their second marriage, and they're coming in

1318
00:45:51,569 --> 00:45:53,109
with a sex addiction partner.

1319
00:45:53,809 --> 00:45:56,609
And they're like, my first partner was, now

1320
00:45:56,609 --> 00:45:58,565
this one. And I'm like, yeah. We might

1321
00:45:58,565 --> 00:46:00,424
need to look at some things here because

1322
00:46:01,125 --> 00:46:02,964
this is this is starting to be a

1323
00:46:02,964 --> 00:46:03,464
pattern.

1324
00:46:03,924 --> 00:46:05,144
And maybe

1325
00:46:05,764 --> 00:46:07,224
while this new husband

1326
00:46:08,644 --> 00:46:10,424
may seriously and genuinely

1327
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:12,940
seem like he wants to do

1328
00:46:13,639 --> 00:46:15,179
work and put in the effort

1329
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,619
and wants to have a thriving mess marriage.

1330
00:46:19,319 --> 00:46:21,400
Your last one didn't. And so we're gonna

1331
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:22,920
have to do some of the healing from

1332
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,460
that one that didn't get done

1333
00:46:25,055 --> 00:46:27,775
in this relationship as well while we're healing

1334
00:46:27,775 --> 00:46:28,515
this relationship.

1335
00:46:28,974 --> 00:46:31,055
But you're gonna have to be learning to

1336
00:46:31,055 --> 00:46:33,454
separate what's from my previous marriage and what's

1337
00:46:33,454 --> 00:46:34,434
from this marriage.

1338
00:46:35,135 --> 00:46:36,735
I see. Now I see where you're going.

1339
00:46:36,735 --> 00:46:37,849
So, similarly,

1340
00:46:38,390 --> 00:46:40,710
if we apply it so let's say this

1341
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:42,570
is your first marriage and let's say

1342
00:46:43,110 --> 00:46:45,530
your partner did cheat on you,

1343
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:47,930
in a compulsive addictive way,

1344
00:46:48,710 --> 00:46:50,869
the same thing kind of applies. It's like

1345
00:46:50,869 --> 00:46:52,230
are you let's say you didn't have a

1346
00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:54,445
previous marriage, but you can apply the stuff

1347
00:46:54,445 --> 00:46:56,605
you see on TV. Right? Once a cheater,

1348
00:46:56,605 --> 00:46:57,425
always a cheater.

1349
00:46:57,885 --> 00:47:00,445
You know, oftentimes men, like because that's that's

1350
00:47:00,445 --> 00:47:03,085
the challenge I think for men is cheaters

1351
00:47:03,085 --> 00:47:04,304
are depicted as,

1352
00:47:05,405 --> 00:47:07,724
guys who didn't have the guts to break

1353
00:47:07,724 --> 00:47:08,545
up and

1354
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:10,960
were just trying to find the next backup

1355
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,819
plan to trade over to,

1356
00:47:13,119 --> 00:47:15,299
or they're just seen as total inconsiderate

1357
00:47:15,599 --> 00:47:16,099
objectification

1358
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:17,859
a holes. Right?

1359
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,719
Right. I don't know. My program's full of

1360
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,559
men and neither of them fall into either

1361
00:47:22,559 --> 00:47:25,445
of those. They're normal guys obsessed with their

1362
00:47:25,445 --> 00:47:25,945
wives,

1363
00:47:26,244 --> 00:47:27,605
want nothing more than to be with their

1364
00:47:27,605 --> 00:47:30,085
wife forever. They're heartbroken at the idea that

1365
00:47:30,085 --> 00:47:31,844
the family could have been broken up. I

1366
00:47:31,844 --> 00:47:34,085
mean, I just you know, I'm surrounded by

1367
00:47:34,085 --> 00:47:36,550
the beauty of these driven men. And my

1368
00:47:36,550 --> 00:47:38,550
program, I mean, my program is no joke.

1369
00:47:38,550 --> 00:47:40,789
It is as intense as intense gets. I

1370
00:47:40,789 --> 00:47:42,949
mean, they are we have in person retreats

1371
00:47:42,949 --> 00:47:44,469
that we do and I am there connecting

1372
00:47:44,469 --> 00:47:46,150
with the group in the deepest of way

1373
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:46,650
possible.

1374
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:49,875
I see committed guys. So but, Jackie, again,

1375
00:47:49,875 --> 00:47:52,295
their partner's seeing a very different story.

1376
00:47:52,835 --> 00:47:54,835
How do we breach this discussion? Because, I

1377
00:47:54,835 --> 00:47:56,594
mean, guys here's the thing. Guys can't ring

1378
00:47:56,594 --> 00:47:58,355
it up. If guys say, hey. Your reality

1379
00:47:58,355 --> 00:47:59,255
needs to change,

1380
00:47:59,795 --> 00:48:01,909
that is not gonna be welcomed

1381
00:48:02,289 --> 00:48:02,789
very,

1382
00:48:03,170 --> 00:48:05,409
very well. So what do we do as

1383
00:48:05,409 --> 00:48:07,569
a couple? Because, I mean, Jackie, the truth

1384
00:48:07,569 --> 00:48:09,170
is her reality does need to change if

1385
00:48:09,170 --> 00:48:10,789
you guys are gonna have a good relationship,

1386
00:48:11,010 --> 00:48:12,609
but the guy can't bring it up. So,

1387
00:48:12,609 --> 00:48:14,530
I mean, we're kinda, like, in this crappy

1388
00:48:14,530 --> 00:48:16,945
spot of, like, he caused the problem,

1389
00:48:17,565 --> 00:48:20,945
and now her reality does have some beliefs

1390
00:48:21,005 --> 00:48:22,684
about him that are gonna prevent them from

1391
00:48:22,684 --> 00:48:24,684
having a great marriage. But, again, what do

1392
00:48:24,684 --> 00:48:25,965
we do? I mean, it's off limits for

1393
00:48:25,965 --> 00:48:27,405
the guy to bring it up because he's

1394
00:48:27,405 --> 00:48:29,085
the one who caused all of this. How

1395
00:48:29,085 --> 00:48:30,465
does a couple handle that?

1396
00:48:31,699 --> 00:48:33,460
I mean, the way we would handle it

1397
00:48:33,460 --> 00:48:35,139
from our end, and then I'll talk about

1398
00:48:35,139 --> 00:48:35,380
the couple.

1399
00:48:37,219 --> 00:48:39,319
So we do some nonconventional

1400
00:48:39,619 --> 00:48:41,159
things in our therapy clinic.

1401
00:48:42,019 --> 00:48:44,179
So often, like, each person has their own

1402
00:48:44,179 --> 00:48:46,905
individual therapist, but we also get release assigned.

1403
00:48:47,444 --> 00:48:50,005
So whoever I'm working with, the addict or

1404
00:48:50,005 --> 00:48:50,744
the partner,

1405
00:48:51,364 --> 00:48:53,525
I'm gonna be hearing this from them, and

1406
00:48:53,525 --> 00:48:56,085
I'm gonna be talking it about it to

1407
00:48:56,085 --> 00:48:56,744
my colleague.

1408
00:48:57,250 --> 00:48:58,610
And they're gonna be like, ah, yeah. I

1409
00:48:58,610 --> 00:48:59,510
can see that.

1410
00:49:01,170 --> 00:49:02,690
And so we're gonna try to get that

1411
00:49:02,690 --> 00:49:04,849
to be brought up in an individual session.

1412
00:49:04,849 --> 00:49:06,630
We're gonna try to flush or not individual.

1413
00:49:06,690 --> 00:49:07,969
We're gonna try to flush that out in

1414
00:49:07,969 --> 00:49:08,950
a couple session.

1415
00:49:09,890 --> 00:49:11,809
And sometimes I may be the one bringing

1416
00:49:11,809 --> 00:49:13,744
it up because he's like, I

1417
00:49:14,045 --> 00:49:15,804
I, no. I cannot do it. And I'm

1418
00:49:15,804 --> 00:49:18,045
like, I'll do it. And usually, I'll just

1419
00:49:18,045 --> 00:49:18,545
say,

1420
00:49:18,924 --> 00:49:19,984
often for women,

1421
00:49:20,444 --> 00:49:21,585
there is this belief.

1422
00:49:22,525 --> 00:49:23,025
And

1423
00:49:23,565 --> 00:49:25,505
they were supposed to marry prince charming,

1424
00:49:25,869 --> 00:49:28,030
and prince charming was never supposed to hurt

1425
00:49:28,030 --> 00:49:30,210
them at ever because he's charming

1426
00:49:30,510 --> 00:49:31,570
and he's a prince.

1427
00:49:32,510 --> 00:49:34,449
And what do we do when prince charming

1428
00:49:34,510 --> 00:49:37,089
gets off the horse and steps on you?

1429
00:49:38,244 --> 00:49:40,244
And so we have to talk about those

1430
00:49:40,244 --> 00:49:40,744
beliefs.

1431
00:49:41,284 --> 00:49:43,525
The beliefs underneath all of this that get

1432
00:49:43,525 --> 00:49:44,585
in the way of

1433
00:49:45,125 --> 00:49:48,484
doing relational repair, doing relational work so that

1434
00:49:48,484 --> 00:49:49,704
you guys can be successful.

1435
00:49:50,085 --> 00:49:50,585
Mhmm.

1436
00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:53,539
So we'll we'll bring that up if if

1437
00:49:53,539 --> 00:49:55,380
that's coming out. And we do do the

1438
00:49:55,380 --> 00:49:57,140
individual I mean, that's one of the reasons

1439
00:49:57,140 --> 00:49:58,920
is gonna hear different things

1440
00:49:59,860 --> 00:50:01,860
in our individual sessions that we know need

1441
00:50:01,860 --> 00:50:04,340
to be addressed in couple sessions, in those

1442
00:50:04,340 --> 00:50:05,320
relational sessions.

1443
00:50:06,675 --> 00:50:08,295
So we'll bring it up that way.

1444
00:50:09,155 --> 00:50:10,135
For the couple,

1445
00:50:11,875 --> 00:50:12,614
you know, I

1446
00:50:13,635 --> 00:50:14,215
I think

1447
00:50:14,914 --> 00:50:17,494
sometimes for the the partner, if they're seen

1448
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,079
and he's talking about beliefs he is having

1449
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:20,659
to challenge

1450
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:22,800
and where those came from and how they

1451
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,800
were not serving, I think it's fair to

1452
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:25,300
say,

1453
00:50:25,679 --> 00:50:27,199
have you ever thought about the beliefs you

1454
00:50:27,199 --> 00:50:28,900
got that you weren't aware you got?

1455
00:50:30,284 --> 00:50:32,844
And she may be like, no. My beliefs

1456
00:50:32,844 --> 00:50:33,505
are fine.

1457
00:50:34,125 --> 00:50:36,525
But at some point I mean, hopefully because

1458
00:50:36,525 --> 00:50:38,684
I've also seen some partners who refuse to

1459
00:50:38,684 --> 00:50:40,764
do any work. Mhmm. That's also gonna make

1460
00:50:40,764 --> 00:50:43,565
it hard to repair a relationship and make

1461
00:50:43,565 --> 00:50:45,150
it one that thrives. Mhmm.

1462
00:50:46,109 --> 00:50:47,710
So most of the time, I would say

1463
00:50:47,710 --> 00:50:49,630
those are the exceptions or those are the

1464
00:50:49,630 --> 00:50:50,130
outliers.

1465
00:50:50,510 --> 00:50:52,109
Most of the time, the couples that we're

1466
00:50:52,109 --> 00:50:53,010
working with,

1467
00:50:53,549 --> 00:50:55,309
she is gonna start to get curious even

1468
00:50:55,309 --> 00:50:56,609
if she denies it initially.

1469
00:50:56,989 --> 00:50:58,609
She may bring it up with her therapist

1470
00:50:58,755 --> 00:51:00,355
and be like, my husband asked me this

1471
00:51:00,355 --> 00:51:01,094
weird question,

1472
00:51:01,474 --> 00:51:03,154
and would I have beliefs that I need

1473
00:51:03,154 --> 00:51:03,815
to challenge?

1474
00:51:04,355 --> 00:51:06,034
I mean, every therapist is gonna be like,

1475
00:51:06,034 --> 00:51:07,174
oh, I love this question.

1476
00:51:09,634 --> 00:51:11,634
Yeah. It's a it's a but you see

1477
00:51:11,634 --> 00:51:13,820
how delicate it is because I mean, what

1478
00:51:13,820 --> 00:51:15,900
we're asking these women to do is is

1479
00:51:15,900 --> 00:51:16,960
change a belief

1480
00:51:17,260 --> 00:51:18,480
that culturally

1481
00:51:19,099 --> 00:51:21,900
everyone subscribes to. Right? Like, there is the

1482
00:51:21,900 --> 00:51:24,719
concept of, oh my gosh, if he's gonna

1483
00:51:24,780 --> 00:51:26,960
two time you and be with another woman,

1484
00:51:27,420 --> 00:51:29,984
yeah, get get out. And so, you know,

1485
00:51:29,984 --> 00:51:32,545
I think that's it it is really tough

1486
00:51:32,545 --> 00:51:34,625
because as much as she has bought into

1487
00:51:34,625 --> 00:51:37,585
the sexician field, she's understanding that guys can

1488
00:51:37,585 --> 00:51:39,824
be sexually compulsive, she's understand that this is

1489
00:51:39,824 --> 00:51:40,590
actually not,

1490
00:51:41,390 --> 00:51:44,349
as uncommon as unfortunately it should be. So

1491
00:51:44,349 --> 00:51:46,670
she's she's buying in, but I do I

1492
00:51:46,670 --> 00:51:48,110
do think that this is a big hang

1493
00:51:48,110 --> 00:51:50,510
up is we are asking these women to

1494
00:51:50,510 --> 00:51:51,969
change a belief from

1495
00:51:52,590 --> 00:51:55,164
I could for give a guy who slept

1496
00:51:55,164 --> 00:51:56,065
with another

1497
00:51:56,684 --> 00:51:57,184
woman.

1498
00:51:57,644 --> 00:51:59,644
Like, I could I could be married to

1499
00:51:59,644 --> 00:52:01,264
him and I could understand

1500
00:52:01,644 --> 00:52:03,565
that he could do that and that it

1501
00:52:03,565 --> 00:52:05,484
would have nothing to do with me or

1502
00:52:05,484 --> 00:52:07,900
our family or or his character or his

1503
00:52:07,900 --> 00:52:09,500
character, Jackie. Like, because that's the other thing

1504
00:52:09,500 --> 00:52:11,179
is you'll hear all sorts of people say

1505
00:52:11,179 --> 00:52:11,920
that this

1506
00:52:12,219 --> 00:52:14,880
speaks to your character. Again, I gotta disagree.

1507
00:52:15,019 --> 00:52:15,760
I I

1508
00:52:16,059 --> 00:52:17,900
the guys in my groups, this does not

1509
00:52:17,900 --> 00:52:19,340
speak to their character at all. This is

1510
00:52:19,340 --> 00:52:20,079
some weird

1511
00:52:20,460 --> 00:52:22,559
compulsive thing that is happening

1512
00:52:23,214 --> 00:52:26,255
because of a long chain of societal influences,

1513
00:52:26,255 --> 00:52:29,454
parental influences, childhood experiences to being exposed to

1514
00:52:29,454 --> 00:52:30,894
things at ages that they shouldn't have been

1515
00:52:30,894 --> 00:52:31,694
exposed to.

1516
00:52:32,094 --> 00:52:34,255
You know, I see you know, to me,

1517
00:52:34,255 --> 00:52:35,614
I don't think this is a reflection of

1518
00:52:35,614 --> 00:52:37,155
their character. I think this is a reflection

1519
00:52:37,295 --> 00:52:39,559
of their belief system which is largely influenced

1520
00:52:39,619 --> 00:52:41,700
by their society, their church, their parents, and

1521
00:52:41,700 --> 00:52:44,019
whatever else. And now this behavior is spitting

1522
00:52:44,019 --> 00:52:45,719
out at the end. But I to me,

1523
00:52:46,099 --> 00:52:47,539
I think that I think it's I think

1524
00:52:47,539 --> 00:52:49,300
to jump to the conclusion that this is

1525
00:52:49,300 --> 00:52:51,619
a reflection of who your husband is is

1526
00:52:51,619 --> 00:52:53,000
dangerous because I do

1527
00:52:53,344 --> 00:52:54,704
I wonder what's gonna happen to you too

1528
00:52:54,704 --> 00:52:56,224
then if that's the case. Right? Because I

1529
00:52:56,224 --> 00:52:58,304
mean, essentially what you're saying is I'm gonna

1530
00:52:58,304 --> 00:53:00,385
stay with an a hole who kinda sucks

1531
00:53:00,385 --> 00:53:01,045
and lies.

1532
00:53:01,505 --> 00:53:03,025
And I don't know, man. Can you have

1533
00:53:03,025 --> 00:53:04,704
a good can you have a good marriage

1534
00:53:04,704 --> 00:53:06,030
if that's what your decision is?

1535
00:53:06,590 --> 00:53:08,909
Yeah. And that's where like, sometimes I I've

1536
00:53:08,909 --> 00:53:09,730
said to clients,

1537
00:53:10,269 --> 00:53:12,349
like, if you have this set of beliefs

1538
00:53:12,349 --> 00:53:13,090
about males

1539
00:53:13,949 --> 00:53:15,570
and you're telling me you're heterosexual,

1540
00:53:17,469 --> 00:53:19,025
now what? Like,

1541
00:53:19,804 --> 00:53:21,565
now now what are you gonna do? Because,

1542
00:53:21,565 --> 00:53:24,625
like, that does not work. Mhmm. And

1543
00:53:25,484 --> 00:53:27,424
so we might need to start challenging

1544
00:53:28,125 --> 00:53:29,505
these beliefs that

1545
00:53:29,804 --> 00:53:31,105
we just were fed,

1546
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,239
and we assumed that they were true. Mhmm.

1547
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,480
Like, no doubt you believe that this is

1548
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:36,980
true,

1549
00:53:37,519 --> 00:53:39,359
and you believe this has something to do

1550
00:53:39,359 --> 00:53:40,019
with character.

1551
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:42,719
You know, I might say to them, like,

1552
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,019
I'm never gonna hold anybody accountable for behaviors

1553
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:46,980
that come

1554
00:53:47,385 --> 00:53:50,105
because of whatever reasons. Usually, at this point,

1555
00:53:50,105 --> 00:53:51,644
I I kinda have some ideas.

1556
00:53:52,025 --> 00:53:54,905
And so I'm I'm saying because of childhood

1557
00:53:54,905 --> 00:53:57,085
issues, messages they get around masculinity,

1558
00:53:57,784 --> 00:53:59,804
all of these things that land them here,

1559
00:54:00,380 --> 00:54:02,380
Like, this person's coming. They're trying to do

1560
00:54:02,380 --> 00:54:05,180
the work. They're they're making some improvements. You've

1561
00:54:05,180 --> 00:54:06,480
reported that to me.

1562
00:54:07,260 --> 00:54:08,000
And so,

1563
00:54:08,619 --> 00:54:10,800
like, we might need to challenge these beliefs

1564
00:54:10,860 --> 00:54:12,880
that he was given, that you were given,

1565
00:54:13,180 --> 00:54:13,680
and

1566
00:54:14,025 --> 00:54:15,804
figure out what do you believe.

1567
00:54:16,744 --> 00:54:18,824
Well and it's the challenge I think that

1568
00:54:18,824 --> 00:54:19,804
I see with

1569
00:54:20,664 --> 00:54:22,844
the with when we inject faith

1570
00:54:23,224 --> 00:54:25,405
based approaches into mental health,

1571
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,960
you know, to me, again, this is not

1572
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:29,559
as you I mean, I'm not telling anybody

1573
00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:31,160
can believe whatever they wanna believe for their

1574
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:32,920
faith. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just

1575
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,000
thinking when we start combining that with mental

1576
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,360
health, especially recovery from something compulsive Mhmm. We're

1577
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:39,724
taking, like, idealistic

1578
00:54:40,025 --> 00:54:40,525
purity

1579
00:54:40,825 --> 00:54:41,644
kind of standards

1580
00:54:43,224 --> 00:54:44,684
and mushing it up against

1581
00:54:45,785 --> 00:54:48,585
flawed human beings who are incredibly complex and

1582
00:54:48,585 --> 00:54:49,805
make mistakes

1583
00:54:50,345 --> 00:54:53,305
every, like, every, like, two minutes. Right? So

1584
00:54:53,305 --> 00:54:55,150
I think that's I think the challenge is

1585
00:54:55,150 --> 00:54:56,449
we're taking this standard

1586
00:54:57,150 --> 00:54:58,829
that, because to me, I've seen it go

1587
00:54:58,829 --> 00:55:00,910
both ways. There's either this kind of purity

1588
00:55:00,910 --> 00:55:03,230
culture of, oh my gosh, the I you

1589
00:55:03,230 --> 00:55:05,650
know, the devil's living inside of this person,

1590
00:55:06,269 --> 00:55:08,269
and then that backfires because now the poor

1591
00:55:08,269 --> 00:55:09,489
guy feels like

1592
00:55:09,844 --> 00:55:11,224
he is you know, something's

1593
00:55:11,525 --> 00:55:13,364
horribly wrong with him, and then he's, you

1594
00:55:13,364 --> 00:55:15,764
know, gonna burn in a fiery inferno in

1595
00:55:15,764 --> 00:55:16,424
the afterlife.

1596
00:55:16,724 --> 00:55:18,005
But then I've also see it go the

1597
00:55:18,005 --> 00:55:19,464
other way. I've seen it like,

1598
00:55:21,204 --> 00:55:23,684
oh, everything's okay. I'm just gonna pray this

1599
00:55:23,684 --> 00:55:25,230
whole thing away and all is gonna be

1600
00:55:25,230 --> 00:55:27,390
well, and I think we can't pray away

1601
00:55:27,390 --> 00:55:29,789
a belief system that we're unaware of having.

1602
00:55:29,789 --> 00:55:31,430
And so, you know, I think that that's

1603
00:55:31,550 --> 00:55:33,390
I think the challenge with how big this

1604
00:55:33,390 --> 00:55:34,369
is is

1605
00:55:34,750 --> 00:55:36,909
anytime we're going to just believe something and

1606
00:55:36,909 --> 00:55:39,230
slap a label on it and call it

1607
00:55:39,230 --> 00:55:39,730
that

1608
00:55:40,055 --> 00:55:42,795
without any other levels of curiosity

1609
00:55:43,095 --> 00:55:45,335
around how this actually came about and why

1610
00:55:45,335 --> 00:55:47,015
this is so common. I mean, I I

1611
00:55:47,015 --> 00:55:49,175
I heard a number yesterday that said, well,

1612
00:55:49,175 --> 00:55:51,735
only eighteen percent of men fall into us,

1613
00:55:51,974 --> 00:55:54,150
addictive or compulsive category. I saw a number

1614
00:55:54,150 --> 00:55:56,089
that said sixty eight percent of men

1615
00:55:56,389 --> 00:55:59,190
engage in deceptive sexual practices, meaning they are

1616
00:55:59,190 --> 00:56:01,989
they are concealing something about their sexuality from

1617
00:56:01,989 --> 00:56:03,750
their partner. Sixty eight. So I mean I

1618
00:56:03,750 --> 00:56:05,670
mean pretty much you have a really high

1619
00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:09,284
likelihood of someone not telling you about completely

1620
00:56:09,284 --> 00:56:10,824
telling you about their sexuality.

1621
00:56:11,525 --> 00:56:13,944
I think it's naive to say that people

1622
00:56:14,885 --> 00:56:17,045
are the problem. I I think if we're

1623
00:56:17,045 --> 00:56:19,444
seeing the numbers climb at this rapid of

1624
00:56:19,444 --> 00:56:20,664
a rate so quickly

1625
00:56:20,980 --> 00:56:23,059
just in the last, you know, thirty years.

1626
00:56:23,059 --> 00:56:24,780
I think we have to wonder, come on.

1627
00:56:24,780 --> 00:56:26,420
I mean, doesn't the Internet and social media

1628
00:56:26,420 --> 00:56:27,780
have to deal with this? And then if

1629
00:56:27,780 --> 00:56:29,239
that's the case, how

1630
00:56:29,780 --> 00:56:31,719
how flawed are these men,

1631
00:56:32,180 --> 00:56:34,500
and is it the container that we're placing

1632
00:56:34,500 --> 00:56:37,135
these men in that needs to be addressed?

1633
00:56:37,135 --> 00:56:39,454
And I think Mhmm. Again, I I think

1634
00:56:39,454 --> 00:56:41,694
that's a difficult topic to breach too because

1635
00:56:41,694 --> 00:56:44,174
I think women see that as a an

1636
00:56:44,174 --> 00:56:45,934
escape or an out or a way to

1637
00:56:45,934 --> 00:56:46,755
shift blame.

1638
00:56:48,414 --> 00:56:49,934
I can see where they would say that.

1639
00:56:49,934 --> 00:56:52,199
I I I don't share that same belief,

1640
00:56:52,199 --> 00:56:55,000
but, again, I'm coming from a a cheater

1641
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,639
and an addict standpoint. So, you know, may

1642
00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:59,480
am I do I like the idea that

1643
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,719
I can shift the cause of this off

1644
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:03,079
of me onto somebody else? So I get

1645
00:57:03,079 --> 00:57:04,619
that. You know, am I a little biased?

1646
00:57:04,664 --> 00:57:06,184
But I think, Jackie, I think that's kind

1647
00:57:06,184 --> 00:57:08,265
of the challenge with looking at this as

1648
00:57:08,265 --> 00:57:08,765
a

1649
00:57:09,304 --> 00:57:12,045
this person did this thing and ignoring

1650
00:57:12,505 --> 00:57:14,684
the plethora in my opinion, plethora

1651
00:57:15,385 --> 00:57:16,045
of factors

1652
00:57:16,505 --> 00:57:19,385
that would make someone engage in, some sort

1653
00:57:19,385 --> 00:57:20,344
of deceptive or,

1654
00:57:21,039 --> 00:57:23,519
or compulsive sexual practice. To me, I don't

1655
00:57:23,519 --> 00:57:25,199
know. There's a lot of indicators to me

1656
00:57:25,199 --> 00:57:25,699
that

1657
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:28,639
that perfectly explain why this is happening, and

1658
00:57:28,639 --> 00:57:30,739
the flaws in these individuals' characters

1659
00:57:31,279 --> 00:57:31,779
aren't

1660
00:57:32,559 --> 00:57:34,559
necessarily one of those things. Now are there

1661
00:57:34,559 --> 00:57:36,434
flaws? Sure. But I I think if we're

1662
00:57:36,434 --> 00:57:36,934
comparing

1663
00:57:37,795 --> 00:57:40,114
the factors of what drove this, I have

1664
00:57:40,114 --> 00:57:42,114
never met a young man who couldn't wait

1665
00:57:42,114 --> 00:57:45,075
to dehumanize himself and dehumanize others. I think

1666
00:57:45,075 --> 00:57:46,454
that happens over time.

1667
00:57:46,914 --> 00:57:47,414
Mhmm.

1668
00:57:47,875 --> 00:57:49,875
Well and it and it usually starts with

1669
00:57:49,875 --> 00:57:52,349
a disconnection from self. Mhmm.

1670
00:57:52,730 --> 00:57:53,550
And so,

1671
00:57:54,010 --> 00:57:56,010
I mean, I this get this gets into

1672
00:57:56,010 --> 00:57:56,829
some of the

1673
00:57:57,609 --> 00:57:59,309
conversations you have to have with couples

1674
00:57:59,769 --> 00:58:00,670
and individuals

1675
00:58:02,329 --> 00:58:03,550
about healthy sexuality.

1676
00:58:04,089 --> 00:58:04,989
Mhmm. And,

1677
00:58:05,514 --> 00:58:07,534
you know, like, I I'm never going

1678
00:58:07,994 --> 00:58:11,054
to define for another person what healthy sexuality

1679
00:58:11,114 --> 00:58:12,954
looks like. But I have just had in

1680
00:58:12,954 --> 00:58:15,275
a lot of conversations as the two are

1681
00:58:15,275 --> 00:58:16,875
talking about this, and we're trying to flush

1682
00:58:16,875 --> 00:58:18,235
it out, and we're trying to figure some

1683
00:58:18,235 --> 00:58:19,934
things out. And initially,

1684
00:58:20,849 --> 00:58:21,510
you know,

1685
00:58:22,610 --> 00:58:25,170
it's they're gonna practice, and I will say

1686
00:58:25,170 --> 00:58:26,930
it might be awkward at first. Let's not

1687
00:58:26,930 --> 00:58:28,550
rule it out because it got awkward

1688
00:58:29,489 --> 00:58:31,570
just because we're taking it to a more

1689
00:58:31,570 --> 00:58:33,970
vulnerable level than maybe we have in the

1690
00:58:33,970 --> 00:58:34,335
past.

1691
00:58:35,295 --> 00:58:37,614
And that may feel awkward. Sex can be

1692
00:58:37,614 --> 00:58:39,855
very vulnerable. And for a lot of people,

1693
00:58:39,855 --> 00:58:41,855
they will avoid that at any price. Right?

1694
00:58:41,855 --> 00:58:43,614
They don't they wanna see I mean, this

1695
00:58:43,614 --> 00:58:46,335
is Brene Brown's work. We're very attracted to

1696
00:58:46,335 --> 00:58:47,875
vulnerability in another person,

1697
00:58:48,420 --> 00:58:50,659
Mhmm. But we don't wanna have other people

1698
00:58:50,659 --> 00:58:51,639
see our vulnerability.

1699
00:58:52,579 --> 00:58:54,599
And so how do we have that

1700
00:58:55,460 --> 00:58:57,159
sexual experience together

1701
00:58:57,859 --> 00:58:58,599
with vulnerability?

1702
00:58:59,219 --> 00:58:59,719
Mhmm.

1703
00:59:00,195 --> 00:59:02,035
And, you know, I mean, I'll I'll throw

1704
00:59:02,035 --> 00:59:04,994
that question out to couples and say, what

1705
00:59:04,994 --> 00:59:06,355
does that look like for you guys? Let's

1706
00:59:06,355 --> 00:59:08,195
talk about that. And, you know, we typically

1707
00:59:08,195 --> 00:59:09,795
have the two therapists in the room that

1708
00:59:09,795 --> 00:59:12,114
we're trying to help facilitate. We've heard some

1709
00:59:12,114 --> 00:59:14,375
things in individual that we're trying to also

1710
00:59:14,539 --> 00:59:15,839
bring into the conversation,

1711
00:59:16,699 --> 00:59:18,619
and, you know, that's a process for them

1712
00:59:18,619 --> 00:59:19,980
to figure out, and not a lot of

1713
00:59:19,980 --> 00:59:21,839
them are figuring that out before marriage.

1714
00:59:23,099 --> 00:59:25,359
Mhmm. Well, then that that that right there

1715
00:59:25,739 --> 00:59:27,500
is, and that's kinda how I want I'm

1716
00:59:27,500 --> 00:59:29,339
gonna have both of us kinda take our

1717
00:59:29,339 --> 00:59:30,315
last jab at,

1718
00:59:30,875 --> 00:59:33,355
some advice for this. But I my that

1719
00:59:33,355 --> 00:59:34,635
was about to come out of my mouth

1720
00:59:34,635 --> 00:59:36,175
what you just said, which was,

1721
00:59:36,795 --> 00:59:38,474
you know, if if we're gonna wrap this

1722
00:59:38,474 --> 00:59:40,315
podcast up and give you guys something to

1723
00:59:40,315 --> 00:59:42,635
think about as individuals and couples, I think

1724
00:59:42,635 --> 00:59:44,554
that's what what you just said there. That's

1725
00:59:44,554 --> 00:59:46,175
what I would speak to is I think

1726
00:59:46,369 --> 00:59:46,949
I think

1727
00:59:47,650 --> 00:59:49,489
I know there's a lot of people pointing

1728
00:59:49,489 --> 00:59:51,650
a lot of fingers at parents and drama

1729
00:59:51,650 --> 00:59:53,090
and all sorts of stuff. And I think

1730
00:59:53,090 --> 00:59:54,530
they're all I don't think we can point

1731
00:59:54,530 --> 00:59:56,050
one finger at anybody. I think it's the

1732
00:59:56,050 --> 00:59:58,210
accumulation of all of the factors, you know.

1733
00:59:58,210 --> 01:00:00,050
Yes. Did your parents beat you or did

1734
01:00:00,050 --> 01:00:01,410
they just tell you to go to Harvard

1735
01:00:01,410 --> 01:00:02,864
Medical School? Both are trauma.

1736
01:00:03,244 --> 01:00:04,445
You know, they they need to stay out

1737
01:00:04,445 --> 01:00:06,684
of your business and let you become that

1738
01:00:06,684 --> 01:00:08,204
your parents job are supposed to be let

1739
01:00:08,285 --> 01:00:10,605
and the community's job should be raising you

1740
01:00:10,605 --> 01:00:11,744
to be the best you.

1741
01:00:12,045 --> 01:00:14,445
And then you be you and maybe find

1742
01:00:14,445 --> 01:00:16,605
a maybe find a partner that enhances you.

1743
01:00:16,605 --> 01:00:18,590
But if you don't, maybe just don't find

1744
01:00:18,590 --> 01:00:21,070
a partner or or or a monogamous partner

1745
01:00:21,070 --> 01:00:23,390
in the traditional sense. Right? I think that's

1746
01:00:23,390 --> 01:00:25,230
where I think everything's kind of gotten screwed

1747
01:00:25,230 --> 01:00:27,890
up is we're forcing humans into

1748
01:00:28,510 --> 01:00:30,349
containers that I don't know humans were ever

1749
01:00:30,349 --> 01:00:32,355
supposed to be in. I mean, you know,

1750
01:00:32,355 --> 01:00:34,594
we're shoving them into homes and locking their

1751
01:00:34,594 --> 01:00:37,315
doors and then saying you and your family

1752
01:00:37,315 --> 01:00:39,715
have to figure this out without the support

1753
01:00:39,715 --> 01:00:41,815
and, you know, we don't tribally

1754
01:00:42,515 --> 01:00:44,594
stick together anymore. We you are on your

1755
01:00:44,594 --> 01:00:46,054
own in your own little home.

1756
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:49,360
I think we are in relationships that are

1757
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:51,920
very challenging because the constraints on on the

1758
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:54,640
coupleship and the family unit is incredibly hard,

1759
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:55,920
and I don't think there's a ton of

1760
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:57,920
time. And to your point, I don't think

1761
01:00:57,920 --> 01:00:59,664
we're asking a lot of questions that we

1762
01:00:59,664 --> 01:01:01,344
should have asked before we brought kids into

1763
01:01:01,344 --> 01:01:03,905
this world because now here we are tied

1764
01:01:03,905 --> 01:01:06,144
to each other for life to a degree

1765
01:01:06,144 --> 01:01:07,744
to some extent. Mhmm. And there were a

1766
01:01:07,744 --> 01:01:09,505
lot of conversations that we did not have

1767
01:01:09,505 --> 01:01:11,105
about pornography use and,

1768
01:01:12,500 --> 01:01:14,659
you know, is how important is it to

1769
01:01:14,659 --> 01:01:17,219
you that couples preserve the sexual energy for

1770
01:01:17,219 --> 01:01:18,900
each other? Because like I said, that I

1771
01:01:18,900 --> 01:01:21,559
would say women value that more than men.

1772
01:01:22,019 --> 01:01:23,460
If they, you know, and and I don't

1773
01:01:23,460 --> 01:01:24,900
I don't think men mean that. I think

1774
01:01:24,900 --> 01:01:26,819
they've just been kind of groomed to not

1775
01:01:26,819 --> 01:01:28,514
really think sex is that big of a

1776
01:01:28,514 --> 01:01:29,494
deal because

1777
01:01:30,034 --> 01:01:33,474
we're just bombarded with the sexual female image

1778
01:01:33,474 --> 01:01:34,934
constantly that we

1779
01:01:35,315 --> 01:01:37,795
grow up not thinking, oh, I can't wait

1780
01:01:37,795 --> 01:01:39,714
to preserve this for my wife and I.

1781
01:01:39,714 --> 01:01:42,500
We're drinking it in for twenty years before

1782
01:01:42,500 --> 01:01:44,980
we get married. Right? And so, right now

1783
01:01:44,980 --> 01:01:46,659
we're supposed to just turn it off. Right?

1784
01:01:46,659 --> 01:01:48,019
But these are these are things that need

1785
01:01:48,019 --> 01:01:50,099
to be discussed and I think that's my

1786
01:01:50,099 --> 01:01:51,780
advice to all these couples and the kind

1787
01:01:51,780 --> 01:01:53,780
of the whole purpose of me bringing Jackie

1788
01:01:53,780 --> 01:01:54,760
on today was

1789
01:01:55,164 --> 01:01:56,684
I think together as a couple, if you're

1790
01:01:56,684 --> 01:01:58,204
gonna thrive through this or even as a

1791
01:01:58,204 --> 01:01:59,644
guy, if you're not married and you just

1792
01:01:59,644 --> 01:02:00,384
wanna become

1793
01:02:01,164 --> 01:02:03,085
sober and free from all of this, I

1794
01:02:03,085 --> 01:02:05,964
think you need to appreciate how dynamic and

1795
01:02:05,964 --> 01:02:07,505
big this is. It is

1796
01:02:08,099 --> 01:02:10,579
There are so many stones that you're gonna

1797
01:02:10,579 --> 01:02:12,740
have to turn over and make sure there's

1798
01:02:12,740 --> 01:02:15,220
nothing under there that's causing this. I mean,

1799
01:02:15,220 --> 01:02:17,780
it it it is a it is a

1800
01:02:17,780 --> 01:02:19,860
big project. It is something you will be

1801
01:02:19,860 --> 01:02:21,954
doing for longer than the two to five

1802
01:02:21,954 --> 01:02:23,315
years. It is something you'll be doing for

1803
01:02:23,315 --> 01:02:25,074
the rest of your life and kinda what

1804
01:02:25,074 --> 01:02:27,795
Jackie said, it's fun. I mean, my recovery

1805
01:02:27,795 --> 01:02:29,635
groups, these guys love it. Like, that's why

1806
01:02:29,635 --> 01:02:32,034
I call it a recovery mastermind is these

1807
01:02:32,034 --> 01:02:34,195
guys are with the 10 they're with 10

1808
01:02:34,195 --> 01:02:35,570
of their of their peers. They're with the

1809
01:02:35,570 --> 01:02:37,809
same 10 guys for a year or two

1810
01:02:37,809 --> 01:02:40,050
or three, and these guys are turning stones

1811
01:02:40,050 --> 01:02:42,449
over together as fast as possible. It's like,

1812
01:02:42,449 --> 01:02:43,889
hey, guys. How do we how do we

1813
01:02:43,889 --> 01:02:46,610
believe beliefs that we wanna believe, not the

1814
01:02:46,610 --> 01:02:49,135
ones that others forced us to believe. Right?

1815
01:02:49,135 --> 01:02:50,574
How do we pioneer this? And that's how

1816
01:02:50,574 --> 01:02:52,335
I kinda wanna end my portion. I'll have

1817
01:02:52,335 --> 01:02:54,494
Jackie speak to her advice to you guys.

1818
01:02:54,494 --> 01:02:55,795
What I would say is

1819
01:02:57,614 --> 01:03:00,514
let go of this purity crap, these ideals,

1820
01:03:01,559 --> 01:03:03,000
like, let go of that. If you if

1821
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:04,039
you guys are trying to throw out as

1822
01:03:04,039 --> 01:03:06,119
a couple, let go of that. Instead, take

1823
01:03:06,119 --> 01:03:08,200
a different approach. My wife and I wear

1824
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:09,340
this like a badge.

1825
01:03:09,719 --> 01:03:11,900
We have a very different outlook. We know

1826
01:03:12,119 --> 01:03:14,200
that we are living in a society that

1827
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:16,364
claims to value monogamy on one hand and

1828
01:03:16,364 --> 01:03:18,445
then literally doesn't even look like they value

1829
01:03:18,445 --> 01:03:20,684
it whatsoever in every other. We know we're

1830
01:03:20,684 --> 01:03:23,005
living in a hypersexual culture. We know that

1831
01:03:23,005 --> 01:03:26,125
women are playing into looking like a trophy

1832
01:03:26,125 --> 01:03:27,724
to be conquered and that men are wanting

1833
01:03:27,724 --> 01:03:29,804
to conquer them and that both parties are

1834
01:03:29,804 --> 01:03:32,860
participating in this in this nonsense. Like, my

1835
01:03:32,860 --> 01:03:34,140
wife and I are wearing it like a

1836
01:03:34,140 --> 01:03:36,380
badge. We understand. We've gotten to ourselves as

1837
01:03:36,380 --> 01:03:39,039
culture into a bit of a pickle here

1838
01:03:39,179 --> 01:03:40,320
with trying to

1839
01:03:40,780 --> 01:03:42,699
not do all of this stuff, and and

1840
01:03:42,699 --> 01:03:45,039
we and every day is three steps back.

1841
01:03:45,305 --> 01:03:46,425
K. So if you guys are listening to

1842
01:03:46,425 --> 01:03:48,025
this, if you're not taking at least three

1843
01:03:48,025 --> 01:03:50,425
steps forward, if not four or five, then

1844
01:03:50,425 --> 01:03:53,224
you are slipping probably back into this because

1845
01:03:53,224 --> 01:03:54,985
culturally, they're not doing you any favors. So

1846
01:03:54,985 --> 01:03:56,905
that's what I would say is stop let

1847
01:03:56,905 --> 01:03:58,825
go of ideals and purity and all that

1848
01:03:58,825 --> 01:04:01,650
stuff because the truth is humans are complex.

1849
01:04:01,869 --> 01:04:02,369
They,

1850
01:04:02,989 --> 01:04:05,250
they they are being stimulated all the time

1851
01:04:05,550 --> 01:04:07,630
by things and it's convincing them to act

1852
01:04:07,630 --> 01:04:09,650
in ways that they probably wouldn't have acted

1853
01:04:09,710 --> 01:04:11,789
had this outside influence, not convinced them to.

1854
01:04:11,789 --> 01:04:13,150
So that's what I say is team up

1855
01:04:13,150 --> 01:04:14,369
as a couple and understand

1856
01:04:14,964 --> 01:04:17,364
you guys are fighting a really difficult battle.

1857
01:04:17,764 --> 01:04:19,605
I know the sex addiction field makes it

1858
01:04:19,605 --> 01:04:21,444
look like it's just your husband's fault for

1859
01:04:21,444 --> 01:04:22,264
being a sicko.

1860
01:04:22,565 --> 01:04:24,324
Guys, that's not what's going on. We live

1861
01:04:24,324 --> 01:04:26,085
in like, I don't wanna turn on the

1862
01:04:26,085 --> 01:04:27,304
TV and I'm like,

1863
01:04:28,230 --> 01:04:29,989
how is it only eighteen percent of men

1864
01:04:29,989 --> 01:04:31,590
that are sex acts? Like, I just I

1865
01:04:31,590 --> 01:04:33,289
just, like I think that number is

1866
01:04:34,070 --> 01:04:35,989
absurdly low. I just I don't believe that

1867
01:04:35,989 --> 01:04:38,150
for a second. Well, let me rephrase that.

1868
01:04:38,150 --> 01:04:39,989
They may not be addicts. How many of

1869
01:04:39,989 --> 01:04:42,815
them are violating their values and morals by

1870
01:04:42,815 --> 01:04:44,574
doing sexual things that they've come to believe

1871
01:04:44,574 --> 01:04:46,335
is okay? So that's that's what I would

1872
01:04:46,335 --> 01:04:48,175
say is single guys wear this like a

1873
01:04:48,175 --> 01:04:49,934
badge, couples wear this like a badge. You

1874
01:04:49,934 --> 01:04:50,835
guys are pioneering

1875
01:04:51,295 --> 01:04:54,175
for the first time couples standing up against

1876
01:04:54,175 --> 01:04:55,855
this, and this has never been stood up

1877
01:04:55,855 --> 01:04:58,019
against. We have we have just been becoming

1878
01:04:58,019 --> 01:05:00,420
progressively more and more promiscuous and sexual and

1879
01:05:00,420 --> 01:05:02,099
open as time goes on. What you guys

1880
01:05:02,099 --> 01:05:04,099
are doing is saying, hey. Are we heading

1881
01:05:04,099 --> 01:05:05,940
in a good direction? That's what this badge

1882
01:05:05,940 --> 01:05:07,380
is. So I would I I would convert

1883
01:05:07,380 --> 01:05:09,559
it from this sad thing and say,

1884
01:05:09,894 --> 01:05:11,815
alright. Hey. Let's go to war with this

1885
01:05:11,815 --> 01:05:13,195
stuff that is really destroying

1886
01:05:13,735 --> 01:05:15,735
humanity and if we let it keep going

1887
01:05:15,735 --> 01:05:17,414
on police. So anyways, went a little rant

1888
01:05:17,414 --> 01:05:19,414
there, but but Yeah. Jackie, what what would

1889
01:05:19,414 --> 01:05:20,075
you leave,

1890
01:05:20,614 --> 01:05:22,135
addicts and couples with,

1891
01:05:22,454 --> 01:05:23,760
with this podcast of

1892
01:05:24,159 --> 01:05:26,099
honoring the size of this problem.

1893
01:05:28,079 --> 01:05:30,579
Yeah. I mean, I I think sometimes they

1894
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:32,800
know the size of the problem. Like, the

1895
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:34,960
partner knows it. She feels it in her

1896
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,219
body, or she did at one point,

1897
01:05:37,815 --> 01:05:39,734
and you can have her recall that. Like,

1898
01:05:39,734 --> 01:05:41,994
look. If this was an easy fix,

1899
01:05:42,934 --> 01:05:44,875
would those emotions be valid?

1900
01:05:45,494 --> 01:05:47,734
The level you felt that pain, would that

1901
01:05:47,734 --> 01:05:49,994
be valid if this was a quick fix

1902
01:05:50,375 --> 01:05:52,375
or if this was just about you losing

1903
01:05:52,375 --> 01:05:53,114
10 pounds?

1904
01:05:53,550 --> 01:05:54,050
Like,

1905
01:05:54,349 --> 01:05:55,969
this is not about that.

1906
01:05:56,590 --> 01:05:57,090
And

1907
01:05:58,030 --> 01:05:59,789
I I think it has so much to

1908
01:05:59,789 --> 01:06:01,650
do with societal messaging.

1909
01:06:02,829 --> 01:06:04,530
And, you know, there's research

1910
01:06:05,150 --> 01:06:07,949
going back that talks about for for baby

1911
01:06:07,949 --> 01:06:08,930
boys. Right?

1912
01:06:10,244 --> 01:06:12,804
We will we're holding an infant. And if

1913
01:06:12,804 --> 01:06:13,944
we perceive it

1914
01:06:14,244 --> 01:06:15,065
as a boy,

1915
01:06:15,684 --> 01:06:17,545
we gaze at that baby

1916
01:06:18,005 --> 01:06:19,684
seconds less than we will if it's a

1917
01:06:19,684 --> 01:06:21,704
girl. Mhmm. That's heartbreaking.

1918
01:06:22,779 --> 01:06:25,119
Why why unless we think that's the baby.

1919
01:06:25,420 --> 01:06:27,420
They have put that baby in boy clothes,

1920
01:06:27,420 --> 01:06:29,900
girl clothes. It's the same baby, and it's

1921
01:06:29,900 --> 01:06:32,880
the person gazing at the baby who is

1922
01:06:32,940 --> 01:06:34,079
applying a bias.

1923
01:06:35,019 --> 01:06:36,699
You know, I'll use the example all the

1924
01:06:36,699 --> 01:06:37,519
time. Like,

1925
01:06:38,724 --> 01:06:40,565
a little you know, we have an 18

1926
01:06:40,565 --> 01:06:43,125
old. They've mastered walking. They're kinda figuring out

1927
01:06:43,125 --> 01:06:46,105
running. They're running down the sidewalk. They fall.

1928
01:06:46,164 --> 01:06:47,925
They hurt their you know, they could start

1929
01:06:47,925 --> 01:06:48,824
to cry.

1930
01:06:49,204 --> 01:06:50,484
What do we say if it's a little

1931
01:06:50,484 --> 01:06:50,984
girl?

1932
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:52,720
And what do we say if it's a

1933
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:54,640
little boy? And most people give you different

1934
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:56,400
answers. And I'm like, right. We all know

1935
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:56,900
it.

1936
01:06:57,519 --> 01:06:59,760
What we are saying to boys is, you're

1937
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:01,619
fine. Jump up. You're tough.

1938
01:07:02,239 --> 01:07:04,960
We're not saying, come here. Invite them into

1939
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:05,460
relationship.

1940
01:07:05,804 --> 01:07:07,565
We're not saying that. We're saying that to

1941
01:07:07,565 --> 01:07:08,224
little girls.

1942
01:07:08,684 --> 01:07:10,364
Oh, come here. Let me give you a

1943
01:07:10,364 --> 01:07:12,045
kiss. Let me give you a hug. As

1944
01:07:12,045 --> 01:07:14,144
though that makes their skinned knee better.

1945
01:07:14,925 --> 01:07:17,885
It doesn't. Right? But that's the messaging we

1946
01:07:17,885 --> 01:07:20,525
are saying to boys is you're good on

1947
01:07:20,525 --> 01:07:21,264
your own.

1948
01:07:21,690 --> 01:07:22,909
You don't need anybody,

1949
01:07:23,609 --> 01:07:25,869
and that's happening at very young ages.

1950
01:07:26,329 --> 01:07:28,570
Mhmm. And and so, yeah, sometimes I will

1951
01:07:28,570 --> 01:07:30,409
say that to partners and be like, just

1952
01:07:30,489 --> 01:07:32,170
I know it's hard to imagine being a

1953
01:07:32,170 --> 01:07:33,929
male, but put yourself in their shoes for

1954
01:07:33,929 --> 01:07:34,510
a minute.

1955
01:07:34,835 --> 01:07:36,434
And don't think of all the good things

1956
01:07:36,434 --> 01:07:39,074
you think about males. Think about your spouse

1957
01:07:39,074 --> 01:07:41,234
and these messages that they started getting at

1958
01:07:41,234 --> 01:07:42,214
very young ages.

1959
01:07:43,634 --> 01:07:45,634
Can you have some empathy for why they

1960
01:07:45,634 --> 01:07:46,614
landed here?

1961
01:07:47,474 --> 01:07:48,929
Of course, they landed here.

1962
01:07:49,650 --> 01:07:51,489
And, you know, sometimes we have some details

1963
01:07:51,489 --> 01:07:54,929
to that story, and they their addicted spouse

1964
01:07:54,929 --> 01:07:56,690
has made sense to them or started to

1965
01:07:56,690 --> 01:07:58,690
make sense of why I landed in sex

1966
01:07:58,690 --> 01:07:59,190
addiction

1967
01:07:59,489 --> 01:08:01,650
or whatever they're calling it. I I'm not

1968
01:08:01,650 --> 01:08:02,789
gonna fight over language.

1969
01:08:03,414 --> 01:08:05,335
Whatever they're calling it, and the partner can

1970
01:08:05,335 --> 01:08:05,994
be like,

1971
01:08:06,454 --> 01:08:07,974
well, I don't like it. And I'm like,

1972
01:08:07,974 --> 01:08:09,594
okay. But can you see it?

1973
01:08:10,054 --> 01:08:11,434
Can you see why

1974
01:08:11,734 --> 01:08:12,954
they would land here?

1975
01:08:13,414 --> 01:08:16,534
And usually, they'll they'll they'll be honest and

1976
01:08:16,534 --> 01:08:17,034
say,

1977
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:20,159
yeah. I get it. I get it. And

1978
01:08:20,159 --> 01:08:22,260
I'm like, yeah. That's what we're working with.

1979
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,420
That is what we are working with,

1980
01:08:25,039 --> 01:08:25,539
and

1981
01:08:26,159 --> 01:08:27,220
that takes time.

1982
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:30,100
We are but I also find,

1983
01:08:31,065 --> 01:08:34,744
you know, I mean, I've gotten texts on

1984
01:08:34,744 --> 01:08:36,525
a Saturday night. Like,

1985
01:08:36,985 --> 01:08:38,525
Jackie, I just had

1986
01:08:39,704 --> 01:08:41,385
this type of sex that I've never had

1987
01:08:41,385 --> 01:08:42,905
before. Remind me to bring it up to

1988
01:08:42,905 --> 01:08:44,925
you on Wednesday. And I'm like,

1989
01:08:45,239 --> 01:08:45,739
okay.

1990
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:48,920
Thanks for thanks for the headstock. Let me

1991
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:51,239
know. And then when we start talking about

1992
01:08:51,239 --> 01:08:54,060
it, there's some vulnerability there. There's some connection

1993
01:08:54,199 --> 01:08:56,539
there that they've never experienced with sex.

1994
01:08:57,079 --> 01:08:57,579
And

1995
01:08:57,895 --> 01:09:00,215
they're just like, what what was this? Because,

1996
01:09:00,215 --> 01:09:01,034
like, that,

1997
01:09:01,574 --> 01:09:03,114
I want that. Mhmm.

1998
01:09:03,734 --> 01:09:04,234
And,

1999
01:09:05,654 --> 01:09:09,014
like, that seems satisfying to me. That actually

2000
01:09:09,014 --> 01:09:09,514
seems

2001
01:09:09,814 --> 01:09:12,135
fulfilling. Right? They were vulnerable. The other person

2002
01:09:12,135 --> 01:09:14,189
was vulnerable. It was a moment. Not that

2003
01:09:14,189 --> 01:09:15,710
that's the only type of sex we can

2004
01:09:15,710 --> 01:09:17,869
have, but I think it is important to

2005
01:09:17,869 --> 01:09:18,369
have

2006
01:09:18,829 --> 01:09:21,310
that type of sex. And and I find

2007
01:09:21,310 --> 01:09:23,630
when men have that, they I mean, at

2008
01:09:23,630 --> 01:09:25,069
least they'll talk to me about it. They're

2009
01:09:25,069 --> 01:09:27,404
like, what what is this? How do I

2010
01:09:27,404 --> 01:09:29,724
get more of this? What happened? What was

2011
01:09:29,724 --> 01:09:30,224
different?

2012
01:09:31,005 --> 01:09:32,844
But I think also because I I do

2013
01:09:32,844 --> 01:09:34,145
men's groups as well.

2014
01:09:35,085 --> 01:09:36,604
And when they are getting to know each

2015
01:09:36,604 --> 01:09:38,685
other and they're in a room talking with

2016
01:09:38,685 --> 01:09:40,350
each other I mean, first of all,

2017
01:09:41,310 --> 01:09:43,570
amazing things happen in these men's groups.

2018
01:09:44,189 --> 01:09:46,189
And I I feel very privileged. Sometimes they'll

2019
01:09:46,189 --> 01:09:47,949
call it, like, the men's group and Jackie,

2020
01:09:47,949 --> 01:09:49,789
and I'm like, right. Thank you for letting

2021
01:09:49,789 --> 01:09:50,770
me participate.

2022
01:09:53,390 --> 01:09:55,970
But when they start connecting with each other

2023
01:09:56,625 --> 01:09:59,604
on a real level, not on the competitive

2024
01:09:59,904 --> 01:10:01,744
or you're my next mark and I'm trying

2025
01:10:01,744 --> 01:10:03,125
to pass you up. Right?

2026
01:10:03,824 --> 01:10:05,045
Not in that way.

2027
01:10:05,664 --> 01:10:06,164
And

2028
01:10:06,625 --> 01:10:09,364
there's a genuine connection and they are speaking

2029
01:10:09,425 --> 01:10:10,965
to each other in that place.

2030
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:13,899
This praise of the world

2031
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:16,860
doesn't really compete with that. Mhmm.

2032
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:19,340
At least that's what they tell me. Right?

2033
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:20,860
And they are saying,

2034
01:10:21,399 --> 01:10:21,899
this

2035
01:10:22,199 --> 01:10:24,520
this is what I've been yearning for. Mhmm.

2036
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:26,539
This is what I was always looking for

2037
01:10:26,645 --> 01:10:28,425
and didn't have. For whatever reason,

2038
01:10:28,725 --> 01:10:30,564
that's what they're looking for. And that's not

2039
01:10:30,564 --> 01:10:32,024
the messaging we're offering

2040
01:10:32,564 --> 01:10:34,645
to men. It's usually I mean, we are

2041
01:10:34,645 --> 01:10:36,645
offering it to women, but then if they're

2042
01:10:36,645 --> 01:10:37,145
heterosexual,

2043
01:10:38,164 --> 01:10:40,164
they're just gonna be without that in a

2044
01:10:40,164 --> 01:10:40,664
relationship.

2045
01:10:41,140 --> 01:10:41,960
That's not gonna

2046
01:10:42,579 --> 01:10:43,079
work.

2047
01:10:43,699 --> 01:10:46,199
So we have to start challenging these messages

2048
01:10:46,979 --> 01:10:48,500
that get in the way of you having

2049
01:10:48,500 --> 01:10:50,760
the marriage you want and start, like,

2050
01:10:51,300 --> 01:10:51,800
envisioning

2051
01:10:52,659 --> 01:10:54,819
what beliefs do we need to have to

2052
01:10:54,819 --> 01:10:56,199
have this type of relationship.

2053
01:10:56,625 --> 01:10:57,364
Yeah. Yeah.

2054
01:10:58,545 --> 01:11:00,304
You oh my god. You you said something

2055
01:11:00,304 --> 01:11:02,885
that's so true. The guys so I,

2056
01:11:03,344 --> 01:11:05,125
one of the things that's on my website,

2057
01:11:05,264 --> 01:11:07,604
and it offends some lives, is,

2058
01:11:08,064 --> 01:11:09,904
I say recovery needs to be fun. And

2059
01:11:09,904 --> 01:11:12,085
she's like, hey. I saw a picture, and

2060
01:11:12,119 --> 01:11:13,500
the guys were playing cornhole

2061
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:14,780
at your retreat,

2062
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:17,800
like, and they get mad that these guys

2063
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:19,100
are hanging out with,

2064
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:20,939
their brothers in recovery

2065
01:11:21,399 --> 01:11:24,039
and they're having fun. And my response back

2066
01:11:24,039 --> 01:11:26,255
is, I get that. I get the perspective

2067
01:11:26,314 --> 01:11:26,814
because

2068
01:11:27,114 --> 01:11:28,175
you're not having

2069
01:11:28,555 --> 01:11:30,635
fun. Right? And so, yeah, now here is

2070
01:11:30,635 --> 01:11:33,114
this whole ugly thing and, you know, and

2071
01:11:33,114 --> 01:11:34,175
and they're enjoying

2072
01:11:34,715 --> 01:11:36,975
recovery. But here's my response to it is

2073
01:11:37,500 --> 01:11:40,300
just what you said, I really believe, I

2074
01:11:40,300 --> 01:11:42,460
heard somebody on Rob Wise's podcast who said

2075
01:11:42,460 --> 01:11:45,179
this exact same thing. He said he goes,

2076
01:11:45,179 --> 01:11:46,699
I don't know. And I I it was

2077
01:11:46,699 --> 01:11:47,899
so true when he said it. He goes,

2078
01:11:47,899 --> 01:11:50,399
I don't know if guys can actually truly

2079
01:11:50,539 --> 01:11:52,814
achieve long term recovery unless they have a

2080
01:11:53,295 --> 01:11:55,694
killer connected recovery group. He's like, I just

2081
01:11:55,774 --> 01:11:57,475
I don't think you can just do this

2082
01:11:57,614 --> 01:11:59,454
in one hour sessions weekly. He's like, I'm

2083
01:11:59,454 --> 01:12:00,994
not I'm not sure that's

2084
01:12:01,454 --> 01:12:03,295
I I I you know, while important, I

2085
01:12:03,295 --> 01:12:05,454
don't think it's enough. I think I think

2086
01:12:05,454 --> 01:12:07,774
they really need a killer ride or die

2087
01:12:07,774 --> 01:12:10,359
support group. And it's funny,

2088
01:12:10,820 --> 01:12:12,579
to your point, I don't think it has

2089
01:12:12,579 --> 01:12:15,300
that much to do with sobriety and recovery.

2090
01:12:15,300 --> 01:12:16,760
I think it has to do with

2091
01:12:18,180 --> 01:12:21,140
this group of guys is the thing. This

2092
01:12:21,140 --> 01:12:22,935
is why I wanted the millions of dollars.

2093
01:12:22,935 --> 01:12:25,414
This is why I wanted the novel sexual

2094
01:12:25,814 --> 01:12:28,135
like, I wanted to experience something meaningful like

2095
01:12:28,135 --> 01:12:30,215
this. And then, yeah, they get that, and

2096
01:12:30,215 --> 01:12:30,954
it's like

2097
01:12:31,494 --> 01:12:33,974
they're poof magically sober. And it's funny. It's

2098
01:12:33,974 --> 01:12:35,814
like we didn't really do anything other than

2099
01:12:35,814 --> 01:12:38,300
give them something that was, you know, absent

2100
01:12:38,359 --> 01:12:40,520
from Mhmm. Their existence before. And it's and

2101
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:42,119
it's always hard for guys to and I

2102
01:12:42,119 --> 01:12:44,039
think here's the biggest challenge, at least that

2103
01:12:44,039 --> 01:12:46,520
I see is, these guys have never experienced

2104
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:47,960
it. And so when I tell them, oh,

2105
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:50,359
yeah. My group will give you this. They

2106
01:12:50,359 --> 01:12:51,739
don't they're like,

2107
01:12:52,574 --> 01:12:53,854
they don't even know if they want it

2108
01:12:53,854 --> 01:12:54,755
because they're like,

2109
01:12:55,055 --> 01:12:56,574
oh, that sounds fine, but what's that have

2110
01:12:56,574 --> 01:12:58,094
to do with recovery? Right? They want the

2111
01:12:58,175 --> 01:13:01,215
Mhmm. 15 steps to get sober. They want

2112
01:13:01,215 --> 01:13:03,935
the the the workbook volume one, two, and

2113
01:13:03,935 --> 01:13:05,215
three. You know, it's like, oh, no. Roland,

2114
01:13:05,215 --> 01:13:07,055
give me something that's gonna be sober. And

2115
01:13:07,055 --> 01:13:09,229
it's like, time and time again, it's just

2116
01:13:09,229 --> 01:13:10,670
like, they get in the group, they have

2117
01:13:10,670 --> 01:13:12,350
this ride or die group of guys that

2118
01:13:12,350 --> 01:13:13,590
are in with recovery, and then all of

2119
01:13:13,590 --> 01:13:14,130
a sudden,

2120
01:13:14,430 --> 01:13:16,750
like, it's like, you know, addict bots are

2121
01:13:16,750 --> 01:13:19,229
gone. And, it makes you wonder, right, what's

2122
01:13:19,229 --> 01:13:20,885
actually going on from all this? Is this

2123
01:13:20,885 --> 01:13:22,324
really a sex and porn addiction, or is

2124
01:13:22,324 --> 01:13:23,944
there something else going on here

2125
01:13:24,244 --> 01:13:26,085
with men? I mean, these these guys these

2126
01:13:26,085 --> 01:13:27,765
are not small numbers. When you look at

2127
01:13:27,765 --> 01:13:29,625
the numbers Right. Of the men being affected,

2128
01:13:30,005 --> 01:13:31,284
I don't know how much this is a

2129
01:13:31,284 --> 01:13:32,965
sex and porn addiction is how much this

2130
01:13:32,965 --> 01:13:35,000
is a have we put these poor guys

2131
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,420
in this environment that has really just

2132
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:41,239
created this bizarre existence where they're acting in

2133
01:13:41,239 --> 01:13:43,020
ways that they're totally ashamed of.

2134
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:45,640
Jackie, how do people get a hold of

2135
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:47,400
you? How do they participate in some of

2136
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:49,100
these offerings? Where are you located?

2137
01:13:49,845 --> 01:13:51,445
Give us the give us the information so

2138
01:13:51,445 --> 01:13:52,265
somebody can

2139
01:13:52,885 --> 01:13:54,025
So I am

2140
01:13:54,485 --> 01:13:56,725
located in Utah, and I own a therapy

2141
01:13:56,725 --> 01:13:59,125
practice, and we focus on betrayal trauma, sex

2142
01:13:59,125 --> 01:13:59,625
addiction,

2143
01:14:00,645 --> 01:14:03,469
infidelity, all those fun things that are deal

2144
01:14:03,469 --> 01:14:04,850
breakers at dinner conversations.

2145
01:14:05,390 --> 01:14:06,850
That's what my husband says.

2146
01:14:08,029 --> 01:14:09,789
I have a podcast as well. It's called

2147
01:14:09,789 --> 01:14:10,689
thanks for sharing.

2148
01:14:12,510 --> 01:14:14,689
You know, I have a website. I do

2149
01:14:14,909 --> 01:14:15,409
online,

2150
01:14:16,635 --> 01:14:17,135
workshops.

2151
01:14:17,755 --> 01:14:18,975
I just started one

2152
01:14:19,354 --> 01:14:21,994
yesterday on attachment. We're just gonna kinda focus

2153
01:14:21,994 --> 01:14:24,255
on attachment. We've got three men, three women,

2154
01:14:24,314 --> 01:14:26,074
which I love kind of keeping it kinda

2155
01:14:26,074 --> 01:14:28,395
small and them, you know, from different states

2156
01:14:28,395 --> 01:14:30,859
and everything coming together, and we're just gonna

2157
01:14:30,859 --> 01:14:33,520
focus eight weeks on attachment, give some practical

2158
01:14:33,579 --> 01:14:35,979
skills, some practical tools for them to start

2159
01:14:35,979 --> 01:14:38,460
implementing while we're doing the workshop. Yep. I

2160
01:14:38,460 --> 01:14:41,340
have another one starting next month on breaking

2161
01:14:41,340 --> 01:14:42,640
the cycle of relapse.

2162
01:14:43,155 --> 01:14:44,914
Sometimes we have to have a targeted, like,

2163
01:14:44,914 --> 01:14:47,715
let's figure out why we can't get past

2164
01:14:47,715 --> 01:14:48,375
three months.

2165
01:14:48,755 --> 01:14:50,774
Let's figure out what that is. And

2166
01:14:51,234 --> 01:14:53,635
to me, anytime we can work something in

2167
01:14:53,635 --> 01:14:54,215
a group

2168
01:14:54,914 --> 01:14:56,435
and you're not just on your own to

2169
01:14:56,435 --> 01:14:58,055
figure it out or individually,

2170
01:14:58,939 --> 01:15:00,939
I I just think it's it's,

2171
01:15:01,819 --> 01:15:03,899
that it's a different way of working, and

2172
01:15:03,899 --> 01:15:05,600
I think it's a powerful way of working.

2173
01:15:05,659 --> 01:15:08,719
Mhmm. And and it doesn't feel so overwhelming

2174
01:15:09,260 --> 01:15:11,020
Mhmm. With all the things that have to

2175
01:15:11,020 --> 01:15:12,395
be worked on and changed.

2176
01:15:12,935 --> 01:15:14,854
It is. I'll I'll second that. My wife

2177
01:15:14,854 --> 01:15:17,354
and I were in a recovery group together,

2178
01:15:17,814 --> 01:15:19,895
very expensive recovery group. I think it was,

2179
01:15:19,895 --> 01:15:22,055
like, $30, I think it was, but, it

2180
01:15:22,055 --> 01:15:24,039
was it's the only reason we're married. I

2181
01:15:24,039 --> 01:15:27,719
mean, Miki, doing this alone is it's stupid.

2182
01:15:27,719 --> 01:15:29,159
I'm gonna tell you right now. If you're

2183
01:15:29,159 --> 01:15:30,460
trying to do this alone

2184
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:32,760
or or dragging your feet and doing this

2185
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:35,079
slow, I mean, gosh, every every day you

2186
01:15:35,079 --> 01:15:36,439
try to do this alone and every day

2187
01:15:36,439 --> 01:15:39,100
that you're not in maximum action with this,

2188
01:15:39,835 --> 01:15:42,474
yeah. I mean, you're you're you're really harming

2189
01:15:42,474 --> 01:15:45,114
the long long term livelihood of this kind

2190
01:15:45,114 --> 01:15:46,314
of going where it needs to go because

2191
01:15:46,314 --> 01:15:47,994
you will. You will get burned out. Everybody

2192
01:15:47,994 --> 01:15:51,274
does. And, the only way that you'll avoid

2193
01:15:51,274 --> 01:15:52,989
that is if you've made a ton of

2194
01:15:52,989 --> 01:15:54,510
progress. Because if you're burning out and you

2195
01:15:54,510 --> 01:15:56,750
haven't moved the needle a lot, oh, boy.

2196
01:15:57,550 --> 01:15:58,050
You're,

2197
01:15:58,590 --> 01:16:00,429
you're you're in for a very you're in

2198
01:16:00,429 --> 01:16:03,149
for a a really rough emotional state in

2199
01:16:03,149 --> 01:16:04,750
a in a really low time. And as

2200
01:16:04,750 --> 01:16:06,465
a couple, that can be that can be

2201
01:16:06,465 --> 01:16:08,385
extra hard to get out of. So, I

2202
01:16:08,385 --> 01:16:10,225
empathize with couples who've who've made it to

2203
01:16:10,225 --> 01:16:12,005
that point because it's it's a mess.

2204
01:16:12,385 --> 01:16:14,145
Jackie, this was so awesome. I like I

2205
01:16:14,145 --> 01:16:16,225
said, I I I don't care if you

2206
01:16:16,225 --> 01:16:17,904
don't wanna come back on. I am forced

2207
01:16:17,904 --> 01:16:19,505
to be back on here in five months

2208
01:16:19,505 --> 01:16:20,064
to do this again.

2209
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:23,159
I know my audience, they're gonna love this.

2210
01:16:23,159 --> 01:16:24,920
It's just, you know, they want the real

2211
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:27,239
stuff. They wanna hear they they wanna know

2212
01:16:27,239 --> 01:16:29,820
that this is hard because it is hard,

2213
01:16:30,039 --> 01:16:31,880
not because they're screwing it up. And I

2214
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:32,699
think sometimes

2215
01:16:33,079 --> 01:16:35,079
we don't speak to how big and ugly

2216
01:16:35,079 --> 01:16:36,625
this thing is. So I so appreciate you

2217
01:16:36,625 --> 01:16:38,305
coming on. This is awesome. Thank you. Yeah.

2218
01:16:38,305 --> 01:16:39,765
It was nice to talk with you.

2219
01:16:40,545 --> 01:16:42,704
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

2220
01:16:42,704 --> 01:16:44,465
are a high achiever with a sex addiction

2221
01:16:44,465 --> 01:16:46,145
and you're looking for a recovery group full

2222
01:16:46,145 --> 01:16:49,260
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

2223
01:16:49,260 --> 01:16:52,139
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

2224
01:16:52,139 --> 01:16:54,939
using four day retreats, weekly group calls, and

2225
01:16:54,939 --> 01:16:57,579
daily accountability check ins. If you wanna achieve

2226
01:16:57,579 --> 01:16:59,994
long term sobriety and save your marriage, go

2227
01:16:59,994 --> 01:17:01,614
to our website and fill out our application.

2228
01:17:01,914 --> 01:17:04,395
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

2229
01:17:04,395 --> 01:17:05,994
along to a friend in recovery who would

2230
01:17:05,994 --> 01:17:07,994
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

2231
01:17:07,994 --> 01:17:09,755
get this information out to as many high

2232
01:17:09,755 --> 01:17:11,994
achievers as possible, and I can't do it

2233
01:17:11,994 --> 01:17:12,975
without your help.