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The three second rule, the three circles of

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sobriety,

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arousal templates. Right? All these little exercises and

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workbooks that guys do when they first get

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into recovery, but it's kind of interesting because

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when we fill these out initially, we

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don't even really understand what recovery and sobriety

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is. Right? So here we are establishing, you

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know, the kind of the core concepts of

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what we need to do to keep us

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safe, what we need to do to stay

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sober,

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but we're doing this at a time where

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we really have very little experience as to

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what our specific addiction is and what it

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is that we need to do to stop

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it. In this podcast episode, I talked to

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Jennifer Ginsberg, and she had this brilliant idea

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of going back and kind of revisiting some

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of the core principles

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of sobriety and recovery and applying them now

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that you have a better grip of how

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big this problem actually is.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles

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specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

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I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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more information about joining our group or attending

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our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Oh, wow. This is gonna be a fun

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conversation today. When I met Jennifer,

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we

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we were like instantaneous friends. We share so

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many of the same viewpoints of this, the

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same frustrations, you know, in in our efforts

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to advocate for our clients and the couples

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that we serve,

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with really trying to,

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make this process more streamlined, make it easier

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to understand. You know, I think the field,

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it's so young, it's so new. This just

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came about in the eighties when we really

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started calling this,

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sex and porn addiction.

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But I think there is still some murkiness

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to it. There's some things that are still

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a little, hard to apply to your particular

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situation. And, Jennifer and I today are gonna

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try to help you make that process a

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little bit easier. And the topic today is

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one that we have not had on the

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show before, and this is the, like, idea

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of arousal, attraction, you know, as we come

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and talk about about it in the, sex

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addiction field,

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the arousal template, which for those of you

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who are not familiar with what that is,

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you know, I'll I'll have Jennifer explain her

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definition of it. But, you know, my definition

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is more or less,

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every guy is attracted to

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different stuff and,

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there's a reason for some of it. And,

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none of it's weird. Just it just is

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what it is, and, we're gonna teach you

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about how you can leverage,

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some of that information

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in your sobriety and in your recovery.

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Jennifer, I'll have you take the, take the

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lead here first.

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When you hear arousal template, where do you

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place that in recovery, and why is it

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so important for men to understand what it

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is? Because I do think it's one of

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the ones that is touched on initially and

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then skipped over.

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How do you kinda deal with it in

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your practice?

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Well, the reason it's skipped over is I

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think that it carries so much shame for

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so many men

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because

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men

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think

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that their arousal template is something out of

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their control.

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They're scared by it. They feel

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dominated by it, and they've they've felt shamed

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by it.

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And

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often in recovery,

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it's a very black or white approach. There's

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there's this idea that if you're in recovery,

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you're you're not doing certain things. You're in

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full abstinence. So so that part of your

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brain or your body is just turned off.

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And that only gets you so

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far. Behavioral

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interventions

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with intimacy disorder,

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and when we know what we know about

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treating intimacy disorders, we're treating trauma,

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they will only get you so far.

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Because the greater the repression, the greater the

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need to act out.

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So my work is about really understanding what's

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going on here. Okay? We're we're gonna take

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the shame out of the equation,

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and we're gonna say an arousal template or

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a blueprint as I call it.

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These exist in all people and and they're

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often unconscious and they're not chosen.

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Mhmm. So I have men come to my

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practice and often they'll they'll have

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years, sometimes decades of recovery.

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And when I we start talking about arousal

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blueprint,

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they're lost. They just they'll say, I I

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like blondes.

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I I like big breasts. And and they

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don't know why. And they don't want to

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talk about it. And they just feel controlled

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by it. I can't go to the supermarket.

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All I see are, you know, body parts

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everywhere.

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And we have to slow this way down

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and say, okay. What's happening here?

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What's happening?

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Why are you feeling

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so out of control, and where did this

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come from? And that's what this work is

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about and what I'm gonna talk about today.

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Mhmm. I like that. It's a you know,

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because I do it's it's it's glossed over,

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and I think you're absolutely correct. I think

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the impression

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you know, as I'm kinda, like, rewinding back

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to when I first started recovery, I think

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you're I think you're correct. I think my

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impression was,

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this I can't control this. This is a

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part of me. And,

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in my particular case, you know, my sex

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addiction started, I'm a full blown addiction compulsive

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when I was 10 years old. And so,

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I was actually even arrested for my behavior

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when I was 14.

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And,

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so for me, tremendous amount of shame. I

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mean, my, you know, my,

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very religious household,

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society didn't even want me around. Right? You

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know, that, you know, this poor 14 year

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old kid getting handcuffed and fingerprinted and,

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polygraph they polygraphed me when I was 14.

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My god, it was such a what still

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to this day, the most traumatic experience that

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I've ever experienced.

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And, yeah, so for me, my arousal template

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was now I'm not telling nobody. No one's

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gonna find out because when you guys did

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find out about a little bit, look what

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happened.

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Right? I was I was shamed. I was

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put in the back of a cop car.

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I was put in holding for hours. You

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know, it's like and then I went to

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school the next day at 7AM.

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Right? And so it's like, alright. Well, I'm

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never doing that one again. Right? And so

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I do think you're correct. I think a

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lot of it is this is out of

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my control. I just don't wanna talk about

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it because there's nothing that can be done

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about it. So I think that that's a

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good place to have to start this conversation.

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That

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is so important. I just I need to

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say this so I don't lose it because

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the the state of shame

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is very physiologically

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similar to arousal.

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So that heightened state,

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right, where it fuses together in that moment

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of secrecy,

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shame,

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getting caught, getting in trouble,

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and arousal. Now it's fused.

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Mhmm. Mhmm. And it's and

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you hear that. Right? You you'll you'll hear

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guys,

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and and and everybody listening has probably heard

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this before. There are therapists and guys who

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will come in and they're almost addicted

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to the shame. It's it's, in the in

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recovery, they're they're so used to hiding this

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and they have been for, you know, ten

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years, twenty years, thirty years, forty years, that

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when they don't have it to hide, it's

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almost

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like, they're missing something that they, that they

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need. Right? That's a different topic for a

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different day, but you're absolutely correct. It can

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become

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it can become

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sexualized.

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Right? It's just like rage can be sexualized.

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Right? So if you think that's shame.

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Absolutely. This is all straight on the same

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topic. Right? As we're talking about arousal template,

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this is this is this is exactly on

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our topic, you know, having shame and secrecy

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be folded into that. You know, for me,

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my, you know, my I had a big,

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a lot of mine was around rebellion and

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defiance. And so when my behavior started becoming

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policed when I was in recovery,

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you know, blockers, covenant eyes, my wife, you

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know, checking all these different things, I actually

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had cravings to do it far more. You

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know, pornography was never really a massive part

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of my personal addiction, but all of a

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sudden when I can't do it,

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my arousal template liked doing something that I

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can't do. You know, growing up as a

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as a Mormon kid in the LDS church,

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you know, I I hated my church. I

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hated the people at the church. I hated

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the way they talk to me, the way

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they treated me. And so I developed a,

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interesting arousal template around doing sexual things to

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piss them off because I could hide it.

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And so I knew I was doing it.

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They didn't know, and it gave me a

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little rush of kinda getting back at them.

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So my my point of sharing some of

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these examples is

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this is this is how an arousal template

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is formed, and this is how an arousal

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template,

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you know, essentially, my my point of sharing

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my personal experiences is it's not as weird

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as everyone wants to make it sound, but

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but let's dive into that. So

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how they act like they don't have control

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over it. They act like it's part of

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them. I want you to kinda speak to

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that first so that guys can kind of

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untether.

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Yeah. So so attraction follows a pattern. It's

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shaped by early experiences,

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trauma, we have to say trauma, early experiences,

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adverse experiences,

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media.

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Men are victims

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to media. I truly believe that. The images

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are thrown at them. Men do not choose

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to have sexualized images thrown at them. The

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multi billion dollar porn industry, which preys on

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men.

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And it's there to just hook men, addict

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men, and keep them locked in the cycle

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of consumption and addiction.

269
00:09:36,704 --> 00:09:40,464
And more, more, more, and ultimately just get

270
00:09:40,464 --> 00:09:43,424
them to pay money to fuel the multi

271
00:09:43,424 --> 00:09:44,644
billion dollar industry

272
00:09:45,264 --> 00:09:47,444
and unmet needs. Mhmm. So

273
00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,799
so when men have this idea that and

274
00:09:50,799 --> 00:09:51,299
justifications

275
00:09:51,919 --> 00:09:55,679
around their arousal template and the behaviors that

276
00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,419
might go along with it such as objectifying

277
00:09:58,799 --> 00:09:59,299
women,

278
00:09:59,839 --> 00:10:00,339
staring,

279
00:10:01,214 --> 00:10:04,495
acting out behaviors, and they rationalize that under

280
00:10:04,495 --> 00:10:06,815
the umbrella of I'm just a man, men

281
00:10:06,815 --> 00:10:08,754
are visual, all men look.

282
00:10:09,534 --> 00:10:12,014
We need to really slow that way down.

283
00:10:12,014 --> 00:10:14,574
Okay? Because we need to really wonder about

284
00:10:14,574 --> 00:10:16,889
this right now. Yes, men are visual

285
00:10:17,350 --> 00:10:17,850
and

286
00:10:19,110 --> 00:10:21,830
men can absolutely step into what I call

287
00:10:21,830 --> 00:10:25,370
emotional leadership and that's that's where the transformation

288
00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:28,070
happens and say yes, I'm a man, I'm

289
00:10:28,070 --> 00:10:30,325
visual, I like to look at things,

290
00:10:30,945 --> 00:10:33,105
and I have control. I don't I don't

291
00:10:33,105 --> 00:10:35,184
get controlled by pixels on a screen, I

292
00:10:35,184 --> 00:10:36,705
don't get controlled when I go to the

293
00:10:36,705 --> 00:10:38,884
supermarket. I know, I now know

294
00:10:39,424 --> 00:10:41,264
what's going on with me in my internal

295
00:10:41,264 --> 00:10:43,345
world and I have the power of choice.

296
00:10:43,345 --> 00:10:45,220
How I am a free man when I

297
00:10:45,220 --> 00:10:47,879
move through the world, but I have choice.

298
00:10:48,419 --> 00:10:49,940
What what I do with my eyes, what

299
00:10:49,940 --> 00:10:51,539
I do with my body, what I do

300
00:10:51,539 --> 00:10:52,360
with my brain.

301
00:10:53,059 --> 00:10:55,959
So that that's the journey of real recovery.

302
00:10:56,304 --> 00:10:57,985
Mhmm. Well, it's it's, you know, one of

303
00:10:57,985 --> 00:11:00,065
my the example I always bring up when

304
00:11:00,065 --> 00:11:00,565
guys

305
00:11:01,504 --> 00:11:03,184
push back on it because they do. They

306
00:11:03,184 --> 00:11:03,845
they genuinely

307
00:11:04,465 --> 00:11:07,745
believe that this is normal and baked into

308
00:11:07,745 --> 00:11:09,425
their DNA and that this wasn't a choice.

309
00:11:09,425 --> 00:11:11,205
Here's my rebuttal to that is

310
00:11:11,809 --> 00:11:13,730
there are tribes to this day. My wife

311
00:11:13,730 --> 00:11:15,649
and I have have visited them. There are

312
00:11:15,649 --> 00:11:17,730
tribes in parts of this of this world

313
00:11:17,730 --> 00:11:19,429
to this day that do not wear clothes.

314
00:11:19,730 --> 00:11:22,289
And the men are not running around sexually

315
00:11:22,289 --> 00:11:25,250
aroused. The men are not staring uncontrollably. The

316
00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:26,230
men are not obsessed

317
00:11:26,654 --> 00:11:28,975
with these various women in their tribe because

318
00:11:28,975 --> 00:11:30,975
no one's ever wear clothes in that tribe.

319
00:11:30,975 --> 00:11:33,475
It's it's not a to see a boob

320
00:11:33,534 --> 00:11:35,855
is not rare. Boobs are around all the

321
00:11:35,855 --> 00:11:37,394
time. So my point is

322
00:11:37,934 --> 00:11:39,830
if you're taught that they're rare, if you're

323
00:11:39,830 --> 00:11:41,750
taught that there's some sort of value, if

324
00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:44,070
you're taught that, your life's gonna be better

325
00:11:44,070 --> 00:11:46,389
when you have access to these these body

326
00:11:46,389 --> 00:11:46,889
parts,

327
00:11:47,269 --> 00:11:48,250
that is learned.

328
00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:51,029
And, a lot of people like to disagree

329
00:11:51,029 --> 00:11:52,664
with me. They think they think that it's

330
00:11:52,985 --> 00:11:54,904
biological, and there is a there is a

331
00:11:54,904 --> 00:11:57,464
biological aspect to attraction and sex appeal. No

332
00:11:57,464 --> 00:11:59,164
doubt about that. I'm not saying there's not.

333
00:11:59,464 --> 00:12:01,144
But how come there's all of these tribes

334
00:12:01,144 --> 00:12:02,745
where no one wears any clothes and none

335
00:12:02,745 --> 00:12:04,584
of the men are running around aroused all

336
00:12:04,584 --> 00:12:06,899
day uncontrollably. Right? And that's my point of

337
00:12:06,899 --> 00:12:09,620
bringing that example up is there is a

338
00:12:09,620 --> 00:12:10,120
cultural

339
00:12:10,500 --> 00:12:12,820
influence here. And to your point, you do

340
00:12:12,820 --> 00:12:14,039
have control. Absolutely.

341
00:12:14,419 --> 00:12:16,019
So let's kind of let's dive a little

342
00:12:16,019 --> 00:12:18,820
bit deeper then. Where do we find so

343
00:12:18,820 --> 00:12:21,379
here we are. We're in relational recovery. You're

344
00:12:21,379 --> 00:12:23,865
a married guy. You've been caught by your

345
00:12:23,884 --> 00:12:26,605
wife. Your wife is now obviously, she's extremely

346
00:12:26,605 --> 00:12:27,745
traumatized. She's hurt.

347
00:12:28,684 --> 00:12:31,584
She's hyper aware now and confused and scared

348
00:12:31,725 --> 00:12:34,620
about what you're into, what you're looking at.

349
00:12:34,860 --> 00:12:36,799
So here's this couple and,

350
00:12:37,339 --> 00:12:40,139
Roussel Template is is she's very curious about

351
00:12:40,139 --> 00:12:42,779
what it is. He's very scared to really

352
00:12:42,779 --> 00:12:43,679
talk about it.

353
00:12:44,379 --> 00:12:46,539
Where does one begin here? Because it's a

354
00:12:46,539 --> 00:12:48,860
it's a source of conflict for couples in

355
00:12:48,860 --> 00:12:50,394
that first It's a huge source. So a

356
00:12:50,394 --> 00:12:51,914
lot of the couples that I see it

357
00:12:51,914 --> 00:12:54,335
brings great pain to women because they see

358
00:12:54,394 --> 00:12:56,794
their husbands looking at other women when they're

359
00:12:56,794 --> 00:12:57,455
out together.

360
00:12:58,315 --> 00:13:00,414
They see it and it really

361
00:13:00,794 --> 00:13:03,294
really upsets them. It hurts them.

362
00:13:04,199 --> 00:13:06,299
It's a betrayal on top of a betrayal.

363
00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,079
And these are couples that are trying to

364
00:13:09,079 --> 00:13:10,220
do repair work

365
00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,419
and their husbands cannot stop

366
00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:14,860
objectifying

367
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:15,980
and staring.

368
00:13:16,975 --> 00:13:19,475
They cannot stop the behavior without intervention.

369
00:13:19,774 --> 00:13:20,754
Mhmm. And

370
00:13:21,134 --> 00:13:23,294
they bring it to to therapy. Often their

371
00:13:23,294 --> 00:13:25,294
wives will confront them in the moment and

372
00:13:25,294 --> 00:13:27,475
they get full defensiveness and rationalization

373
00:13:27,774 --> 00:13:29,519
and I didn't do it and then we

374
00:13:29,519 --> 00:13:31,920
come in and and I with with me,

375
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:32,980
I'm able to

376
00:13:33,519 --> 00:13:34,180
have them

377
00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:37,040
step forward into honesty about it. And then

378
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,500
we have to start wondering.

379
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,320
First of all, we have to take the

380
00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:41,139
shame out.

381
00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:44,714
Men don't choose their arousal template. They don't

382
00:13:44,714 --> 00:13:46,654
choose it. It often is imprinted

383
00:13:47,274 --> 00:13:49,214
before they had the power of choice.

384
00:13:49,595 --> 00:13:51,595
Where does it come from? You knew where

385
00:13:51,595 --> 00:13:52,894
it came from in your case.

386
00:13:53,514 --> 00:13:56,634
It came from a social conditioning. It came

387
00:13:56,634 --> 00:13:58,414
from childhood adversity.

388
00:13:59,339 --> 00:14:00,399
It came from

389
00:14:00,860 --> 00:14:02,079
family dysfunction.

390
00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:05,659
Right? We can't leave sexual abuse out of

391
00:14:05,659 --> 00:14:06,480
this conversation.

392
00:14:06,860 --> 00:14:09,419
Often a place it comes from. Some men

393
00:14:09,419 --> 00:14:10,959
just inherit their father's

394
00:14:11,259 --> 00:14:12,480
arousal print.

395
00:14:12,845 --> 00:14:13,504
Their father

396
00:14:14,045 --> 00:14:17,725
is sexualizing women, talking about his type. Their

397
00:14:17,725 --> 00:14:19,345
father has a stack of playboys

398
00:14:19,725 --> 00:14:22,465
that their son grabs, and suddenly their dad's

399
00:14:22,524 --> 00:14:25,325
arousal blueprint is their arousal blueprint. Most clients

400
00:14:25,325 --> 00:14:26,865
don't wanna think about that.

401
00:14:27,419 --> 00:14:28,159
Very common.

402
00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:30,240
Very, very common for,

403
00:14:31,179 --> 00:14:34,000
adult child to inherit their father's arousal blueprint

404
00:14:35,339 --> 00:14:38,139
because there were really poor, poor boundaries in

405
00:14:38,139 --> 00:14:39,279
the house around sexuality.

406
00:14:39,820 --> 00:14:43,254
Mhmm. Mhmm. So we first need to understand,

407
00:14:43,475 --> 00:14:45,714
you know what where yours came from. You've

408
00:14:45,714 --> 00:14:47,235
you've done that well. Well, it's not enough

409
00:14:47,235 --> 00:14:48,434
of the work and done enough of the

410
00:14:48,434 --> 00:14:49,815
work and paid a bunch of money

411
00:14:50,195 --> 00:14:52,054
to figure it out, but I got there.

412
00:14:52,115 --> 00:14:54,090
So I can share I can share a

413
00:14:54,170 --> 00:14:56,250
a case study. I had a client come

414
00:14:56,250 --> 00:14:57,149
to me and

415
00:14:57,690 --> 00:14:58,830
he was again

416
00:14:59,529 --> 00:15:01,769
very upset by the behavior that was upsetting

417
00:15:01,769 --> 00:15:03,930
his wife that he couldn't stop staring. He

418
00:15:03,930 --> 00:15:06,170
couldn't stop staring. And his his theory was

419
00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:08,414
I just love to look at beautiful things.

420
00:15:08,654 --> 00:15:10,254
And that that's where it ended. He couldn't

421
00:15:10,254 --> 00:15:11,774
get past that. I I just am one

422
00:15:11,774 --> 00:15:13,615
of those men. I see something beautiful and

423
00:15:13,615 --> 00:15:14,595
I have to stare.

424
00:15:15,454 --> 00:15:17,315
I said okay let's slow this down.

425
00:15:17,855 --> 00:15:20,174
What's your earliest memory? We went back into

426
00:15:20,174 --> 00:15:20,754
the arousal

427
00:15:21,389 --> 00:15:23,389
template. When did you first what was your

428
00:15:23,389 --> 00:15:25,009
first earliest sexual memory?

429
00:15:25,470 --> 00:15:28,129
And he recalled a story when he was

430
00:15:28,350 --> 00:15:30,269
a very young boy, six or seven years

431
00:15:30,269 --> 00:15:32,449
old, and he saw Wonder Woman.

432
00:15:33,485 --> 00:15:34,704
And he said that

433
00:15:35,884 --> 00:15:39,884
just desire and arousal and lust and love

434
00:15:39,884 --> 00:15:42,445
and everything took over. He's he's looking at

435
00:15:42,445 --> 00:15:43,184
Wonder Woman

436
00:15:43,644 --> 00:15:45,324
and all he could talk about in that

437
00:15:45,324 --> 00:15:47,264
moment in session with me were the physical

438
00:15:47,879 --> 00:15:51,580
her light eyes, her dark hair, her body,

439
00:15:51,639 --> 00:15:52,379
her curves.

440
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:54,600
And he's going on and on, and it's

441
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,519
the beauty. And so his whole life, he

442
00:15:56,519 --> 00:15:58,680
says, he's looking for these images of Wonder

443
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,340
Woman. These physical images of Trader Joe's,

444
00:16:02,045 --> 00:16:03,965
you know, when he takes a walk at

445
00:16:03,965 --> 00:16:06,285
the gym. He's looking for Wonder Woman. This

446
00:16:06,285 --> 00:16:08,384
man's on a mission. He can't stop.

447
00:16:08,845 --> 00:16:11,165
And and it's his divine right. He gets

448
00:16:11,165 --> 00:16:13,325
to do this, right, because he's a man,

449
00:16:13,325 --> 00:16:15,425
and he gets to look at beautiful

450
00:16:15,789 --> 00:16:17,410
images that look like Wonder Woman.

451
00:16:18,110 --> 00:16:18,610
And

452
00:16:19,070 --> 00:16:19,570
I

453
00:16:20,350 --> 00:16:22,210
sat with him, and I said, let's wonder

454
00:16:22,509 --> 00:16:24,990
about Wonder Woman and what this is for

455
00:16:24,990 --> 00:16:25,490
you.

456
00:16:26,190 --> 00:16:27,730
And he just insisted,

457
00:16:28,294 --> 00:16:30,534
just beautiful. She's so beautiful. Of course, I

458
00:16:30,534 --> 00:16:32,294
wanna look at her. Who wouldn't wanna stare

459
00:16:32,294 --> 00:16:33,975
at Wonder Woman? Look at her body. Look

460
00:16:33,975 --> 00:16:34,794
at her face.

461
00:16:35,574 --> 00:16:37,414
And I said, what was let's really talk

462
00:16:37,414 --> 00:16:39,654
about what your life looked like then. And

463
00:16:39,654 --> 00:16:41,334
and this was a new client. We were

464
00:16:41,334 --> 00:16:44,259
really in our first session. This was happening.

465
00:16:44,259 --> 00:16:44,759
And

466
00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:48,899
what was happening was his father, a drug

467
00:16:48,899 --> 00:16:49,399
addict,

468
00:16:50,259 --> 00:16:51,320
was abusive.

469
00:16:51,940 --> 00:16:55,700
His mother had disappeared completely and had abandoned

470
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:57,879
him and wasn't protecting him from the abusive

471
00:16:58,355 --> 00:16:59,574
drug addict father.

472
00:17:00,115 --> 00:17:03,014
And the little boy was watching Wonder Woman

473
00:17:03,394 --> 00:17:04,855
and falling in love with her.

474
00:17:07,394 --> 00:17:08,755
How could he not fall in love with

475
00:17:08,755 --> 00:17:09,575
Wonder Woman?

476
00:17:10,159 --> 00:17:12,240
She was Wonder Woman, she was everything he

477
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,500
needed to rescue him from that.

478
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,059
And so he had then spent the next

479
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,099
forty years

480
00:17:20,159 --> 00:17:21,619
searching for Wonder Woman

481
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,099
in all sorts of ways that caused tremendous

482
00:17:24,855 --> 00:17:25,595
self destruction

483
00:17:25,974 --> 00:17:27,894
and destruction to other people and harm to

484
00:17:27,894 --> 00:17:28,394
himself.

485
00:17:30,535 --> 00:17:32,555
And you know it feels very obvious,

486
00:17:33,015 --> 00:17:34,315
but it was very powerful

487
00:17:34,615 --> 00:17:35,434
for him.

488
00:17:36,134 --> 00:17:36,634
And

489
00:17:37,015 --> 00:17:38,694
and still then what do we do with

490
00:17:38,694 --> 00:17:41,369
that? So we know now. Okay. Great. Now

491
00:17:41,369 --> 00:17:43,210
we know. We we put it together. Now

492
00:17:43,210 --> 00:17:45,629
we've named the wound. Where's the healing?

493
00:17:46,169 --> 00:17:48,509
Let's move into what the healing looks like.

494
00:17:48,730 --> 00:17:50,329
Now you're out. You're out in the world.

495
00:17:50,329 --> 00:17:52,250
You're at the supermarket and you see an

496
00:17:52,250 --> 00:17:53,835
image. You see a woman and she looks

497
00:17:53,835 --> 00:17:55,835
like Wonder Woman and you just feel like

498
00:17:55,835 --> 00:17:56,894
you need to stare

499
00:17:57,275 --> 00:17:59,515
and you feel shame, right? You're a man

500
00:17:59,515 --> 00:18:01,515
and you just want to stare and they're,

501
00:18:01,515 --> 00:18:03,355
and you're torn because you know you shouldn't,

502
00:18:03,355 --> 00:18:05,355
you're in recovery. I know I'm not supposed

503
00:18:05,355 --> 00:18:05,934
to stare.

504
00:18:06,289 --> 00:18:07,970
I know it's bad. I know it means

505
00:18:07,970 --> 00:18:10,049
it's, like, not really a relapse, but it's

506
00:18:10,049 --> 00:18:11,730
kind of not good. And I know my

507
00:18:11,730 --> 00:18:13,569
wife doesn't like it, but she's not here.

508
00:18:13,569 --> 00:18:15,169
So maybe I'll just look when lying at

509
00:18:15,169 --> 00:18:17,329
her butt when no one's looking. I'm gonna

510
00:18:17,329 --> 00:18:19,329
get away with it. What are you looking

511
00:18:19,329 --> 00:18:19,755
at?

512
00:18:20,634 --> 00:18:22,154
Well, I'm just looking, you know, I'm looking

513
00:18:22,154 --> 00:18:23,755
at this. I'm looking at that. I really

514
00:18:23,755 --> 00:18:25,914
sit with them. What what are you looking

515
00:18:25,914 --> 00:18:27,934
at? What what is what are you seeing?

516
00:18:28,875 --> 00:18:30,015
What do you need?

517
00:18:30,875 --> 00:18:32,954
What what is it in that image that

518
00:18:32,954 --> 00:18:35,454
is fueling you? What is it giving you?

519
00:18:36,490 --> 00:18:39,069
And often what I get and they push,

520
00:18:39,130 --> 00:18:40,809
men don't want to go there. When I

521
00:18:40,809 --> 00:18:43,210
say what's really in that image, when you

522
00:18:43,210 --> 00:18:45,450
see a woman and you feel drawn to

523
00:18:45,450 --> 00:18:47,289
stare, often they don't want the woman to

524
00:18:47,289 --> 00:18:48,829
look back. They don't want an interaction.

525
00:18:49,450 --> 00:18:52,295
They're wanting to be fed. They are feeding

526
00:18:52,295 --> 00:18:54,474
off the image. There is something inside

527
00:18:55,095 --> 00:18:56,075
of some men

528
00:18:57,174 --> 00:18:59,515
that feels very empty and very

529
00:19:00,934 --> 00:19:01,434
broken

530
00:19:02,134 --> 00:19:02,795
to them,

531
00:19:03,679 --> 00:19:06,419
and that image will act like almost

532
00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:07,539
a drug,

533
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,500
and it will provide them with relief.

534
00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:12,740
That that's how they're using

535
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:14,179
images of women.

536
00:19:15,855 --> 00:19:18,335
And so it's very powerful. I mean, we're

537
00:19:18,335 --> 00:19:19,634
dealing with a powerful

538
00:19:20,015 --> 00:19:20,515
powerful

539
00:19:21,535 --> 00:19:24,755
balm for their soul Mhmm. In that moment.

540
00:19:26,015 --> 00:19:27,775
And so we need to then wonder about

541
00:19:27,775 --> 00:19:30,069
that. Mhmm. How can you get that met

542
00:19:30,069 --> 00:19:32,230
in another way? What what what what are

543
00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:34,230
we doing here? What do you need to

544
00:19:34,230 --> 00:19:36,230
take care of yourself so you're not going

545
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:37,049
through the world

546
00:19:37,349 --> 00:19:38,409
and needing to,

547
00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:41,509
you know, suck the energy out of people

548
00:19:41,509 --> 00:19:42,890
in ways that are harmful,

549
00:19:43,934 --> 00:19:46,255
Right? That are hurting your wife, that are

550
00:19:46,255 --> 00:19:48,494
taking the energy out of you, that are

551
00:19:48,494 --> 00:19:51,294
perceived as kind of creepy if anyone were

552
00:19:51,294 --> 00:19:52,734
to see you. Right? And I don't like

553
00:19:52,734 --> 00:19:54,994
to use that word because it's very shaming.

554
00:19:56,170 --> 00:19:58,349
Right? But that's how they feel and

555
00:20:00,250 --> 00:20:01,690
you you don't want to be the man

556
00:20:01,690 --> 00:20:03,390
that's just staring at women

557
00:20:05,289 --> 00:20:06,809
but yet you think you should be able

558
00:20:06,809 --> 00:20:09,130
to be because you're a man. Right. Right.

559
00:20:09,130 --> 00:20:12,454
The the the two sides. Right. Right? Right.

560
00:20:12,454 --> 00:20:12,954
Right.

561
00:20:13,335 --> 00:20:15,434
What what are you getting from the image?

562
00:20:15,575 --> 00:20:17,575
What is it giving to you? Well, I

563
00:20:17,575 --> 00:20:19,894
think too, you know, that what I noticed

564
00:20:19,894 --> 00:20:21,674
with successful men

565
00:20:22,214 --> 00:20:22,714
is

566
00:20:23,095 --> 00:20:24,315
a lot of it's insatiable.

567
00:20:25,339 --> 00:20:27,279
So there there there isn't enough.

568
00:20:28,220 --> 00:20:29,359
You know, it's it's,

569
00:20:29,820 --> 00:20:31,820
you know, the for you know, I'll I'll

570
00:20:31,820 --> 00:20:33,039
speak again for me.

571
00:20:34,779 --> 00:20:37,740
You know, it's a the more of them

572
00:20:37,740 --> 00:20:40,214
I can get to want me and find

573
00:20:40,214 --> 00:20:40,875
me attractive,

574
00:20:41,335 --> 00:20:43,815
the better I am. And there is no

575
00:20:43,815 --> 00:20:45,734
limit. I need to I need to get

576
00:20:45,734 --> 00:20:48,134
that number as high as I can. I

577
00:20:48,134 --> 00:20:50,535
need to get as many women to wish

578
00:20:50,535 --> 00:20:52,875
that they could be my wife as possible.

579
00:20:53,220 --> 00:20:56,019
So there isn't there isn't enough. But back

580
00:20:56,019 --> 00:20:58,119
to your point, what's the void?

581
00:20:58,660 --> 00:21:01,000
The void is, you know, in my particular

582
00:21:01,059 --> 00:21:01,559
example,

583
00:21:01,940 --> 00:21:02,440
wondering

584
00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:03,400
if I,

585
00:21:03,859 --> 00:21:05,619
if people like me. You know, am I

586
00:21:05,619 --> 00:21:06,759
enough? Am I,

587
00:21:07,085 --> 00:21:09,265
do I matter? Am I am I accomplished?

588
00:21:09,325 --> 00:21:12,065
Is this does anyone consider my life important?

589
00:21:12,525 --> 00:21:13,025
And,

590
00:21:13,805 --> 00:21:15,724
there's never enough of that for me. I

591
00:21:15,724 --> 00:21:17,325
need I need to stack up as much

592
00:21:17,325 --> 00:21:18,285
of it as I can. And it's not

593
00:21:18,285 --> 00:21:19,505
just women. It's also,

594
00:21:19,884 --> 00:21:22,079
I want men's attention and envy and jealousy

595
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:24,960
as well. And so for me, that's what

596
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:25,679
I'm doing out in the world. You know,

597
00:21:25,679 --> 00:21:27,759
I I actually don't identify as a sex

598
00:21:27,759 --> 00:21:31,059
addict. I am addicted to attention validation, superiority,

599
00:21:32,159 --> 00:21:32,659
feeling,

600
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,384
feeling like I'm the best in the room.

601
00:21:35,384 --> 00:21:38,045
That's my vision. And part of that recipe

602
00:21:38,105 --> 00:21:39,485
has become for me,

603
00:21:40,025 --> 00:21:42,265
I see all these men saying, oh, wow.

604
00:21:42,265 --> 00:21:44,025
I wish we could be with her. You

605
00:21:44,025 --> 00:21:46,025
know what that said to me in my

606
00:21:46,025 --> 00:21:48,960
arousal template? Well, I must need to go

607
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,359
get her to wanna be with me in

608
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,519
front of these guys. Mhmm. Right? For that,

609
00:21:53,519 --> 00:21:55,119
you know, my whole thing, it was this

610
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:56,259
it was this game.

611
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,740
And and there was never enough because

612
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:00,960
once I got that, it was like, okay.

613
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,605
Check. And now I need another one. Alright.

614
00:22:03,605 --> 00:22:05,365
Alright. Who else who else is hard to

615
00:22:05,365 --> 00:22:06,644
get? Alright. Let's see if I can go

616
00:22:06,644 --> 00:22:09,305
get that person. And, it's just this insatiable

617
00:22:09,605 --> 00:22:10,825
treadmill of,

618
00:22:11,765 --> 00:22:13,285
I need to stack this up. And I

619
00:22:13,285 --> 00:22:14,664
I I bring that up because

620
00:22:15,125 --> 00:22:15,625
it's,

621
00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:19,660
that is for the guys listening to this.

622
00:22:19,660 --> 00:22:20,940
I mean, that is really what it's like

623
00:22:20,940 --> 00:22:22,859
to grow up as a guy from age

624
00:22:22,859 --> 00:22:24,779
15 to 25. I mean, for the for

625
00:22:24,779 --> 00:22:25,519
that decade,

626
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:27,820
you know, especially through college, I mean, that

627
00:22:27,820 --> 00:22:28,320
is

628
00:22:28,795 --> 00:22:30,974
the the purpose of life, and it's pathetic.

629
00:22:31,035 --> 00:22:32,875
It really is sad to say this out

630
00:22:32,875 --> 00:22:34,335
loud. I'm I'm I'm very

631
00:22:34,634 --> 00:22:36,795
sad to say this, but amongst some male

632
00:22:36,795 --> 00:22:39,755
circles, that is that is what those ten

633
00:22:39,755 --> 00:22:42,549
years are about. 10 to 25 is sleeping

634
00:22:42,549 --> 00:22:43,230
as many,

635
00:22:43,710 --> 00:22:45,630
beautiful women as possible. If we wanna go

636
00:22:45,630 --> 00:22:48,430
all in on the objectification language, sleeping with

637
00:22:48,430 --> 00:22:49,650
as many tens

638
00:22:50,109 --> 00:22:51,730
as possible. Right? And,

639
00:22:52,430 --> 00:22:54,029
you know, think about the effect of that.

640
00:22:54,029 --> 00:22:55,890
And what I wanna bring up is

641
00:22:56,255 --> 00:22:57,615
so you think when you get married, you're

642
00:22:57,615 --> 00:22:58,515
just gonna stop.

643
00:22:59,215 --> 00:23:01,055
Right. That's what I thought. Right? Was, oh,

644
00:23:01,055 --> 00:23:03,134
yeah. I'll I'll I'll I'll do this while

645
00:23:03,134 --> 00:23:04,735
I can, but then, you know, I'll I'll

646
00:23:04,735 --> 00:23:06,275
I'll hang it up one day. And,

647
00:23:07,375 --> 00:23:08,674
I couldn't hang it up.

648
00:23:12,769 --> 00:23:13,269
Yeah.

649
00:23:14,130 --> 00:23:16,230
Right? So when we're talking arousal templates,

650
00:23:16,690 --> 00:23:18,369
you know, I wanted to bring that example

651
00:23:18,369 --> 00:23:20,230
up because, you know, it's a

652
00:23:21,089 --> 00:23:22,929
there's a lot of facets to this when

653
00:23:22,929 --> 00:23:26,154
we're talking about actually getting over this. It's

654
00:23:26,234 --> 00:23:27,595
you know, I wanted to bring that up.

655
00:23:27,595 --> 00:23:28,095
There's,

656
00:23:28,954 --> 00:23:31,355
there's a lot at play here. There's a

657
00:23:31,355 --> 00:23:32,875
lot in the void, and there's a lot

658
00:23:32,875 --> 00:23:34,474
in the game that you've decided to play

659
00:23:34,474 --> 00:23:36,015
to get it. And so it's a,

660
00:23:37,115 --> 00:23:38,875
you know, I I I bring that example

661
00:23:38,875 --> 00:23:40,795
up not to intimidate people, but to basically

662
00:23:40,795 --> 00:23:43,410
say, you know, this is if you really

663
00:23:43,410 --> 00:23:44,929
wanna conquer this, this is a big this

664
00:23:44,929 --> 00:23:46,609
is a bigger conversation. I mean, this isn't

665
00:23:46,609 --> 00:23:49,009
something yes. This isn't a this isn't a

666
00:23:49,250 --> 00:23:51,009
oh, it's I like this type and this

667
00:23:51,009 --> 00:23:52,849
type and this type, and now I need

668
00:23:52,849 --> 00:23:53,329
to,

669
00:23:53,650 --> 00:23:55,805
you know, break that. It's it's can be

670
00:23:55,805 --> 00:23:58,204
incredibly convoluted. That's And there and there's a

671
00:23:58,204 --> 00:24:01,005
reason. Right? Like, it was such a a

672
00:24:01,005 --> 00:24:01,505
great,

673
00:24:02,924 --> 00:24:05,265
illustration that you gave about the other culture.

674
00:24:06,045 --> 00:24:08,445
Mhmm. And walked around naked and nothing was

675
00:24:08,445 --> 00:24:09,984
sexualized because of it.

676
00:24:10,330 --> 00:24:12,730
There's a reason why in our culture and

677
00:24:12,730 --> 00:24:14,970
a lot of cultures that young men 15

678
00:24:14,970 --> 00:24:17,130
to 25 just want to have as much

679
00:24:17,130 --> 00:24:17,630
casual

680
00:24:18,170 --> 00:24:18,990
non emotional

681
00:24:19,529 --> 00:24:22,190
sex with attractive women as possible.

682
00:24:23,075 --> 00:24:25,795
They're learning it. Mhmm. They're learning that from

683
00:24:25,795 --> 00:24:29,154
somewhere. Mhmm. That's not innate. Yeah. Superbad. You

684
00:24:29,154 --> 00:24:31,394
guys seen that movie? Superbad is a movie

685
00:24:31,394 --> 00:24:33,795
about two high school seniors who desperately wanna

686
00:24:33,795 --> 00:24:35,795
get laid. And it was and it made

687
00:24:35,795 --> 00:24:37,970
millions upon millions upon millions of dollars, and

688
00:24:37,970 --> 00:24:40,309
no one really thought anything. I just watched

689
00:24:40,769 --> 00:24:41,349
it on,

690
00:24:42,529 --> 00:24:43,890
it was, like, on oh, no. I didn't

691
00:24:43,890 --> 00:24:45,570
watch it. It was on the person sitting

692
00:24:45,570 --> 00:24:47,170
next to me on the airplane was watching

693
00:24:47,170 --> 00:24:48,950
it, and I could not believe

694
00:24:49,970 --> 00:24:50,710
how much

695
00:24:51,464 --> 00:24:52,345
sexual, pornography,

696
00:24:52,904 --> 00:24:53,404
pornography

697
00:24:53,865 --> 00:24:55,644
references over and over again.

698
00:24:56,585 --> 00:24:58,265
But it is. This is the stuff that's

699
00:24:58,265 --> 00:24:59,085
being normalized.

700
00:24:59,545 --> 00:25:01,625
Well, because parents yeah. And I think that,

701
00:25:01,625 --> 00:25:04,025
you know, parents don't think it's a big

702
00:25:04,025 --> 00:25:06,105
deal. It's not, you know, we think about

703
00:25:06,105 --> 00:25:08,079
all the nonsense that's taught in high school

704
00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:10,159
that none of it gets applied or used.

705
00:25:10,159 --> 00:25:10,659
But

706
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:12,880
what's not taught in school the most important

707
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,440
things how to have a healthy relationship and

708
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,819
how to balance your checkbook.

709
00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:19,919
Those should be like the two classes that

710
00:25:19,919 --> 00:25:21,434
you have to take in high school.

711
00:25:21,914 --> 00:25:24,315
And no one takes either of those, and

712
00:25:24,315 --> 00:25:27,275
there's no financial readiness and no emotional sexual

713
00:25:27,275 --> 00:25:30,075
readiness whatsoever. There there's a lot of fear

714
00:25:30,075 --> 00:25:32,475
about sex, you know, how to not catch

715
00:25:32,475 --> 00:25:34,815
disease and how to not get pregnant.

716
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,500
That's part of sexuality.

717
00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:39,880
Of course, that's a big part. Yes. We

718
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,059
need to be safe. But what about emotional

719
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:42,619
safety?

720
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,039
What about how to communicate when you're having

721
00:25:46,039 --> 00:25:47,960
sex with someone? How about how to say,

722
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,005
I don't like that.

723
00:25:49,404 --> 00:25:50,305
Let's slow

724
00:25:50,845 --> 00:25:53,244
down. That doesn't feel good. We need to

725
00:25:53,244 --> 00:25:56,444
have an emotional connection before you put yourself

726
00:25:56,444 --> 00:25:58,464
inside of me. We need to talk.

727
00:25:58,765 --> 00:26:00,065
We need to go slow.

728
00:26:00,605 --> 00:26:03,345
No one no one teaches anyone this.

729
00:26:03,884 --> 00:26:04,680
No one does.

730
00:26:06,039 --> 00:26:09,320
And so we wonder why people are have

731
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,440
intimate have intimacy disorders, have sex addiction, have

732
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,920
Well, even worse, you know, who's teaching it

733
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,785
is the adult film industry. I mean, that's

734
00:26:17,025 --> 00:26:19,505
that's because no one's teaching it. Yeah. Men

735
00:26:19,505 --> 00:26:21,125
are men are watching these,

736
00:26:21,585 --> 00:26:23,424
you know, and it's it's telling them two

737
00:26:23,424 --> 00:26:25,505
things. Yes. There's whatever it is that they're

738
00:26:25,505 --> 00:26:27,585
watching, but there's also a counter at the

739
00:26:27,585 --> 00:26:29,265
bottom that says how many times it's been

740
00:26:29,265 --> 00:26:31,769
views viewed. Right? That how many men have

741
00:26:31,769 --> 00:26:34,410
watched that video. That's data that's telling you

742
00:26:34,410 --> 00:26:36,329
that what you're doing is not abnormal. You

743
00:26:36,329 --> 00:26:37,849
know, I was I was talking to my

744
00:26:37,849 --> 00:26:39,849
wife the other day. I was like, there's

745
00:26:39,849 --> 00:26:42,009
this game that that we played as kids

746
00:26:42,009 --> 00:26:43,609
called Grand Theft Auto, and,

747
00:26:45,015 --> 00:26:47,015
you can hire prostitutes. And I used to

748
00:26:47,015 --> 00:26:48,055
tell my wife, I was like, oh my

749
00:26:48,055 --> 00:26:49,414
gosh. I just thought of something. She was

750
00:26:49,414 --> 00:26:51,255
like, what? I was like, when I was

751
00:26:51,255 --> 00:26:53,335
11 years old, I was playing Grand Theft

752
00:26:53,335 --> 00:26:55,414
Auto on the PlayStation, and we would pick

753
00:26:55,414 --> 00:26:56,075
up hookers.

754
00:26:56,615 --> 00:26:59,174
And I, you know, yeah, I'm just thinking

755
00:26:59,174 --> 00:27:01,460
of what impact that had on me at

756
00:27:01,460 --> 00:27:04,259
11 years old that full grown men who

757
00:27:04,259 --> 00:27:05,799
have cars and have money

758
00:27:06,259 --> 00:27:08,180
pick up hookers. That was what that that

759
00:27:08,180 --> 00:27:09,740
was what that taught me. That this is

760
00:27:09,860 --> 00:27:12,580
Yeah. This is not an abnormal occurrence. Right?

761
00:27:12,580 --> 00:27:15,140
Right? You know, it's just it's shocking that

762
00:27:15,140 --> 00:27:15,940
this stuff that we

763
00:27:16,634 --> 00:27:18,634
So the three second rule talk about I

764
00:27:18,634 --> 00:27:19,994
just wanna say I wanna get to that

765
00:27:19,994 --> 00:27:22,315
but when we talk about the the arousal

766
00:27:22,315 --> 00:27:24,315
blueprint it is important to say that yes

767
00:27:24,315 --> 00:27:26,315
it's sexual trauma, you can inherit it from

768
00:27:26,315 --> 00:27:28,815
your father, it's culture, it's all of this,

769
00:27:29,115 --> 00:27:30,174
but yes porn.

770
00:27:30,599 --> 00:27:33,400
Many men get their arousal blueprint from porn.

771
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,799
They they're watching porn at this very young

772
00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:38,920
age that I consider actually sexually abuse sexual

773
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,400
abuse. Early exposure to porn when a young

774
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,585
boy's watching that,

775
00:27:43,384 --> 00:27:47,005
that that is abusive to his emerging sexuality

776
00:27:47,304 --> 00:27:48,684
to be watching those images.

777
00:27:49,384 --> 00:27:51,804
And that is forming an arousal blueprint.

778
00:27:52,904 --> 00:27:55,085
And when we think about what even mainstream

779
00:27:55,224 --> 00:27:57,085
porn is, very male focused,

780
00:27:58,349 --> 00:27:59,009
no intimacy,

781
00:27:59,390 --> 00:28:00,690
no emotional intimacy,

782
00:28:01,789 --> 00:28:03,630
very focused on a woman just being an

783
00:28:03,630 --> 00:28:05,809
object and being used for male pleasure.

784
00:28:06,509 --> 00:28:08,049
Right? And discarded

785
00:28:08,509 --> 00:28:09,009
and

786
00:28:09,950 --> 00:28:13,134
wow. That's what they're watching and Mhmm. They

787
00:28:13,134 --> 00:28:15,294
can see anything they want and those images

788
00:28:15,294 --> 00:28:17,615
get seared into their brain. I mean, they

789
00:28:17,615 --> 00:28:18,355
are designed

790
00:28:18,734 --> 00:28:19,054
to

791
00:28:19,615 --> 00:28:20,674
porn is a container

792
00:28:21,375 --> 00:28:23,954
for men to hold their shame. Many men

793
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,079
who feel like they can't even explore their

794
00:28:27,079 --> 00:28:29,400
sexuality in a healthy way because of religious

795
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:29,900
oppression,

796
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:31,980
like you experienced,

797
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:32,859
because

798
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,180
because they might have an alternative sexual identity

799
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,460
that they need to explore,

800
00:28:39,554 --> 00:28:41,794
porn becomes a container for that. And I

801
00:28:41,794 --> 00:28:43,815
understand that, you know, it becomes

802
00:28:44,194 --> 00:28:46,115
a the only container they have in that

803
00:28:46,115 --> 00:28:48,994
instance where they feel enormous shame about some

804
00:28:48,994 --> 00:28:50,054
part of their sexuality.

805
00:28:50,835 --> 00:28:52,434
Mhmm. And what I want to say to

806
00:28:52,434 --> 00:28:53,174
that is

807
00:28:54,289 --> 00:28:54,789
still

808
00:28:55,490 --> 00:28:56,309
your sexuality,

809
00:28:56,690 --> 00:28:58,450
no matter what is going on, no matter

810
00:28:58,450 --> 00:29:00,849
what you're attracted to, you know, healthy sex

811
00:29:00,849 --> 00:29:02,789
is sex between consenting adults.

812
00:29:03,169 --> 00:29:04,230
That is my definition.

813
00:29:05,329 --> 00:29:06,470
And because of

814
00:29:06,769 --> 00:29:09,828
morality or religious upbringing, all sorts of of

815
00:29:09,828 --> 00:29:12,335
things, many men will use porn to explore

816
00:29:12,335 --> 00:29:14,414
parts of themselves that they would never with

817
00:29:14,414 --> 00:29:16,255
their talk about with their wife or anyone

818
00:29:16,255 --> 00:29:18,015
else or even in an their therapist, they

819
00:29:18,015 --> 00:29:19,615
won't even talk to her with an essay

820
00:29:19,615 --> 00:29:20,914
in an essay meeting.

821
00:29:21,589 --> 00:29:23,690
And so they'll go to porn for that.

822
00:29:23,750 --> 00:29:25,670
And, you know, there's something to me that's

823
00:29:25,670 --> 00:29:27,750
quite beautiful about that because they're trying to

824
00:29:27,750 --> 00:29:29,910
heal themselves. They they there's this part of

825
00:29:29,910 --> 00:29:33,109
them that wants to understand maybe why am

826
00:29:33,109 --> 00:29:34,490
I curious about

827
00:29:35,534 --> 00:29:37,794
sex with a man. Right? I'm a man.

828
00:29:38,575 --> 00:29:39,054
And,

829
00:29:39,934 --> 00:29:41,474
they they feel so much shame.

830
00:29:42,255 --> 00:29:44,414
Instead of saying this is something normal and

831
00:29:44,414 --> 00:29:46,494
healthy and sexuality is on the spectrum and

832
00:29:46,494 --> 00:29:48,174
we all know the Kinsey scale and this

833
00:29:48,174 --> 00:29:50,180
and that, They they might not know that.

834
00:29:50,180 --> 00:29:51,700
They need a therapist like me to tell

835
00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:53,619
them that and say you actually are allowed

836
00:29:53,619 --> 00:29:55,779
to feel this way. And you don't have

837
00:29:55,779 --> 00:29:56,759
to hide

838
00:29:57,220 --> 00:29:59,299
in the in the corner and feel shame

839
00:29:59,299 --> 00:30:00,519
and look at porn.

840
00:30:02,065 --> 00:30:04,225
It that's not your only option for exploring

841
00:30:04,225 --> 00:30:05,045
this. Right?

842
00:30:05,585 --> 00:30:07,424
Mhmm. There are other ways to talk about

843
00:30:07,424 --> 00:30:10,225
this. And so that often has to become

844
00:30:10,225 --> 00:30:12,565
a big part of the work too. Mhmm.

845
00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:14,639
You have to you have to get out

846
00:30:14,639 --> 00:30:16,559
of the shadows of that and and bring

847
00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:18,240
it into the light and talk about what

848
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:19,539
is a healthy expression.

849
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,679
You know, that's and that is, you know,

850
00:30:23,679 --> 00:30:25,039
that you know, my wife and I are

851
00:30:25,039 --> 00:30:26,819
still working on it because I

852
00:30:27,445 --> 00:30:29,045
I still even don't know, you know, if

853
00:30:29,045 --> 00:30:31,625
I know what sex is, like, healthy sex.

854
00:30:31,924 --> 00:30:32,904
You know? I I

855
00:30:33,285 --> 00:30:35,845
I'm I'm what I've learned about it, I

856
00:30:35,845 --> 00:30:37,605
remember in recovery when I was learning about

857
00:30:37,605 --> 00:30:38,724
it, I was like, man, I don't know

858
00:30:38,724 --> 00:30:40,325
if I've had sex. If if that's what

859
00:30:40,325 --> 00:30:41,525
sex is, I don't know if I've ever

860
00:30:41,525 --> 00:30:43,359
had that. Right? You know? I don't know

861
00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:44,900
if I've I've had intercourse,

862
00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:47,279
but I haven't had sex in the way

863
00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:49,599
that it's described. And it's just, you know,

864
00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:50,799
a lot of for me, it was just

865
00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:52,640
a lot of religious wounds of being told

866
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,000
I was gonna go to hell for all

867
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,154
these certain things And, you know, it just

868
00:30:56,154 --> 00:30:57,355
made me very scared of it to the

869
00:30:57,355 --> 00:30:58,875
point where I think as a little boy,

870
00:30:58,875 --> 00:31:00,394
it was just like, well, I'm just not

871
00:31:00,394 --> 00:31:01,994
gonna mess with that. You know, I'm not

872
00:31:01,994 --> 00:31:03,994
gonna you know, I'll do it bare minimum.

873
00:31:03,994 --> 00:31:05,434
I'll do it over here as a secret,

874
00:31:05,674 --> 00:31:07,355
just to get my, you know, needs met.

875
00:31:07,355 --> 00:31:09,115
But outside of that, I'm I'm not gonna

876
00:31:09,115 --> 00:31:11,039
be into it. And I've I've historically had

877
00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:12,019
a very low libido,

878
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,419
and it's been a problem in every relationship.

879
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:15,700
And,

880
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,679
I don't know if I actually have a

881
00:31:17,679 --> 00:31:19,380
low libido or if I'm just,

882
00:31:20,399 --> 00:31:21,460
scared of sex

883
00:31:21,759 --> 00:31:24,259
because of just a complete misunderstanding

884
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:25,220
around

885
00:31:25,525 --> 00:31:28,244
what that emotional exchange actually even is. You

886
00:31:28,244 --> 00:31:30,244
know, it's and it's it's sad to say

887
00:31:30,244 --> 00:31:31,065
that because,

888
00:31:31,684 --> 00:31:33,924
I know my wife wants to have sex

889
00:31:33,924 --> 00:31:35,924
with me, and, again, I just don't know

890
00:31:35,924 --> 00:31:37,525
because it wasn't taught to me. I'm not

891
00:31:37,525 --> 00:31:39,365
sure if I even understand what that what

892
00:31:39,365 --> 00:31:40,424
that is, you know.

893
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,000
I can have intercourse. I've had lots of

894
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,980
that, but, like, real sex, again, I'm still

895
00:31:46,119 --> 00:31:48,440
I'm in my infancy of figuring out, you

896
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,119
know, personally what that even is. You know?

897
00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:51,879
My wife are exploring that together. I think

898
00:31:51,879 --> 00:31:53,480
that's ex one of the exciting things about

899
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,005
relational recovery is, a lot of guys are

900
00:31:56,005 --> 00:31:56,404
not,

901
00:31:58,404 --> 00:32:00,164
you know, they haven't really had sex in

902
00:32:00,164 --> 00:32:01,684
the way that their wife would love to

903
00:32:01,684 --> 00:32:02,184
have,

904
00:32:02,644 --> 00:32:04,164
connected sex. And I think that's one of

905
00:32:04,164 --> 00:32:06,085
the cool gifts that recovery can give couples

906
00:32:06,085 --> 00:32:08,005
is, you know, you might be able to

907
00:32:08,005 --> 00:32:10,919
have intimate sexual intimacy, physical intimacy that you've

908
00:32:10,919 --> 00:32:13,159
never had before because of what what you're

909
00:32:13,159 --> 00:32:15,879
gonna explore through this, you know, later half

910
00:32:15,879 --> 00:32:18,039
of this process. Again, this does not happen

911
00:32:18,039 --> 00:32:19,899
in the begin in the beginning of betrayal

912
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,119
recovery. This is something that you guys do

913
00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:22,779
in phase

914
00:32:23,174 --> 00:32:25,495
three when you have decided, hey. Let's let's

915
00:32:25,735 --> 00:32:28,055
what what more can we experience. Right? But

916
00:32:28,055 --> 00:32:30,134
what I ask my couples that come to

917
00:32:30,134 --> 00:32:33,275
me often with these sorts of

918
00:32:33,654 --> 00:32:35,835
concerns is I say, what is sex?

919
00:32:36,215 --> 00:32:39,049
Mhmm. Because I can ask a thousand couples

920
00:32:39,049 --> 00:32:41,690
this question, a thousand individuals what is sex

921
00:32:41,690 --> 00:32:43,450
and I'll get a thousand different answers. But

922
00:32:43,450 --> 00:32:45,450
I'll tell you that the vast majority of

923
00:32:45,450 --> 00:32:48,170
heterosexual men that I ask them what is

924
00:32:48,170 --> 00:32:48,670
sex,

925
00:32:49,244 --> 00:32:50,924
they'll look at me like I'm crazy because

926
00:32:50,924 --> 00:32:52,285
why don't I know what sex is and

927
00:32:52,285 --> 00:32:54,525
I'm a certified sex addiction therapist. First of

928
00:32:54,525 --> 00:32:56,464
all, they look at me like I'm absolutely

929
00:32:56,605 --> 00:32:58,305
stupid or starkraving mad

930
00:32:58,684 --> 00:33:01,184
and I tolerate that. And then I

931
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,880
I say please answer me what is sex

932
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:05,559
and they will they will tell me that

933
00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:07,980
it involves an erect penis in a vagina

934
00:33:08,119 --> 00:33:09,419
that results in an orgasm.

935
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,960
Yeah. And then they wonder why their wives

936
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:13,659
are so unhappy. Mhmm.

937
00:33:14,095 --> 00:33:17,875
That's a really narrow definition of sex. Yes.

938
00:33:18,015 --> 00:33:20,255
And they wonder why they're unhappy. I mean,

939
00:33:20,255 --> 00:33:21,875
we have these old bodies.

940
00:33:23,375 --> 00:33:25,215
And when you're you've reduced it to three

941
00:33:25,215 --> 00:33:28,539
things, penis, vagina, orgasm, and that's it. And

942
00:33:28,539 --> 00:33:30,220
if one of those things doesn't work or

943
00:33:30,220 --> 00:33:31,119
wanna cooperate,

944
00:33:31,740 --> 00:33:32,559
no sex,

945
00:33:32,940 --> 00:33:35,279
bad, didn't work, shame,

946
00:33:36,380 --> 00:33:37,119
not good.

947
00:33:38,059 --> 00:33:40,779
Yeah. Well, and I think too, if sex

948
00:33:40,779 --> 00:33:41,599
is that,

949
00:33:42,164 --> 00:33:44,164
then you can get it and have it

950
00:33:44,164 --> 00:33:45,845
everywhere. And I think that, you know, when

951
00:33:45,845 --> 00:33:47,865
we're talking about sobriety recovery,

952
00:33:49,285 --> 00:33:51,045
I think that's why it was so easy

953
00:33:51,045 --> 00:33:52,644
for me was, you know, I think that

954
00:33:52,644 --> 00:33:54,005
was why it was so heartbreaking for my

955
00:33:54,005 --> 00:33:55,869
wife when she was like, wow. We have

956
00:33:55,869 --> 00:33:59,009
two different definitions of what sex is. And,

957
00:34:00,109 --> 00:34:02,589
she's right but wrong. She was right. We

958
00:34:02,589 --> 00:34:03,890
do have two different definitions.

959
00:34:04,829 --> 00:34:06,589
I want mine to be like hers, and

960
00:34:06,589 --> 00:34:08,349
I've always wanted mine to be like hers.

961
00:34:08,349 --> 00:34:10,449
I just didn't have anybody help me

962
00:34:10,750 --> 00:34:12,824
get there. And so that's what I've kind

963
00:34:12,824 --> 00:34:14,045
of told her is, like, listen,

964
00:34:14,425 --> 00:34:16,585
I know how it comes across. I know

965
00:34:16,585 --> 00:34:19,224
it's so offensive to you. I don't want

966
00:34:19,224 --> 00:34:20,905
it that way. I never wanted it that

967
00:34:20,905 --> 00:34:23,465
way. That's just it's it's it's gotten to

968
00:34:23,465 --> 00:34:26,259
that point and, it's it's it truly wasn't

969
00:34:26,259 --> 00:34:27,779
what I wanted. And I think, you know,

970
00:34:27,779 --> 00:34:29,779
that's, you know and and again, I'm projecting

971
00:34:29,779 --> 00:34:30,819
a little bit here, but I think that's

972
00:34:30,819 --> 00:34:33,159
one of the more frustrating pieces about

973
00:34:34,420 --> 00:34:36,980
healing our marriage that I was frustrated from

974
00:34:36,980 --> 00:34:38,500
from the beginning was I felt like I

975
00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:40,279
was being looked at and talked

976
00:34:40,664 --> 00:34:42,585
to like I was a freak, like I

977
00:34:42,585 --> 00:34:44,204
was weird, like I was a monster.

978
00:34:44,744 --> 00:34:47,065
And the whole time I'm frustrated because I'm

979
00:34:47,065 --> 00:34:49,224
like, I'm on your side. I I I

980
00:34:49,224 --> 00:34:51,065
wanna I wanna feel like you, think like

981
00:34:51,065 --> 00:34:52,664
you, act like you. I wanna have I

982
00:34:52,664 --> 00:34:53,965
wanna preserve the sexual,

983
00:34:54,505 --> 00:34:56,400
energy for our relationship. And so it was

984
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,319
it was very frustrating because I was being

985
00:34:58,319 --> 00:35:00,559
treated like I didn't want that when I

986
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:02,799
was really on the same team. I just

987
00:35:02,799 --> 00:35:05,460
I just honestly didn't have the knowledge,

988
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,159
to be able to do it. I mean,

989
00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:09,839
I know it sounds so dumb. Right? Because

990
00:35:09,839 --> 00:35:10,339
everyone,

991
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,304
you know, everyone looks at it and they're

992
00:35:12,304 --> 00:35:13,184
like, what do you mean you don't know

993
00:35:13,184 --> 00:35:14,625
what sex is? It's a, you know, we

994
00:35:14,625 --> 00:35:16,324
all need it. We all want but again,

995
00:35:17,824 --> 00:35:20,144
I think if you're not taught what it

996
00:35:20,144 --> 00:35:20,644
is

997
00:35:20,944 --> 00:35:22,724
and what it should be,

998
00:35:23,344 --> 00:35:24,885
then why would you know?

999
00:35:25,579 --> 00:35:28,000
I teach sex to my couples and individuals

1000
00:35:28,219 --> 00:35:28,960
as a menu.

1001
00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:31,199
Sex is not an act, it's a menu.

1002
00:35:31,739 --> 00:35:33,739
Just like every day we're different, we don't

1003
00:35:33,739 --> 00:35:35,579
wanna eat the same food every day, and

1004
00:35:35,579 --> 00:35:37,980
we shouldn't because nutritionally that would not be

1005
00:35:37,980 --> 00:35:39,675
good for us even if we wanted to

1006
00:35:39,675 --> 00:35:41,195
eat a healthy food every day. It wouldn't

1007
00:35:41,195 --> 00:35:43,295
be good to eat kale for every meal.

1008
00:35:43,835 --> 00:35:45,614
Sex is a menu and

1009
00:35:46,635 --> 00:35:48,235
there should be lots of things on the

1010
00:35:48,235 --> 00:35:50,795
menu and it should be something you discuss

1011
00:35:50,795 --> 00:35:51,614
with your partner.

1012
00:35:52,449 --> 00:35:54,949
It might be a sensual massage one night.

1013
00:35:55,170 --> 00:35:56,630
We want a broad menu.

1014
00:35:56,930 --> 00:35:59,250
Right? It might be one night, I just

1015
00:35:59,489 --> 00:36:02,210
you know, women sometimes they're hormonal. They have

1016
00:36:02,210 --> 00:36:04,309
their period. Men have hormonal changes.

1017
00:36:04,610 --> 00:36:06,994
You ate something. Your stomach hurts. I just

1018
00:36:07,074 --> 00:36:09,074
I'm gonna lay there and you can you

1019
00:36:09,074 --> 00:36:11,394
can have you know, you can masturbate, and

1020
00:36:11,394 --> 00:36:12,835
I'll lay next to you. That's on the

1021
00:36:12,835 --> 00:36:13,335
menu.

1022
00:36:13,795 --> 00:36:15,894
Maybe one night, we'll take a shower together.

1023
00:36:16,035 --> 00:36:18,434
That's on the menu. There's lots of things

1024
00:36:18,434 --> 00:36:20,195
that can be on the menu that we

1025
00:36:20,195 --> 00:36:21,059
can call sex.

1026
00:36:21,940 --> 00:36:24,820
And when couples work with the menu their

1027
00:36:24,820 --> 00:36:28,340
sex life suddenly becomes very interesting, very intimate,

1028
00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:29,239
and very connected.

1029
00:36:29,619 --> 00:36:31,860
And then you take turns setting the stage

1030
00:36:31,860 --> 00:36:32,680
for the menu.

1031
00:36:33,234 --> 00:36:33,734
Right?

1032
00:36:34,275 --> 00:36:35,094
One night,

1033
00:36:35,714 --> 00:36:37,734
oh, let's discuss what's on the menu tonight.

1034
00:36:38,034 --> 00:36:40,594
And it's it's it takes so much stress

1035
00:36:40,594 --> 00:36:41,335
out of it.

1036
00:36:42,275 --> 00:36:44,275
It takes a lot of work because often

1037
00:36:44,275 --> 00:36:46,514
men think the only thing on my menu

1038
00:36:46,514 --> 00:36:48,320
is intercourse and orgasm.

1039
00:36:49,099 --> 00:36:51,900
Yeah. Right? So we need to really slow

1040
00:36:51,900 --> 00:36:54,059
them down and deeply attune them to their

1041
00:36:54,059 --> 00:36:55,280
partners and themselves.

1042
00:36:55,739 --> 00:36:56,239
Mhmm.

1043
00:36:56,539 --> 00:36:58,619
Mhmm. Now I wanna speak to this for

1044
00:36:58,619 --> 00:37:00,300
you guys listening because I know there's some

1045
00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:02,144
of you listening who are gonna take this

1046
00:37:02,224 --> 00:37:04,465
and run with it the wrong way. Jennifer

1047
00:37:04,465 --> 00:37:05,525
and I are not

1048
00:37:05,905 --> 00:37:06,405
saying

1049
00:37:07,105 --> 00:37:09,585
that this problem happened because your menu was

1050
00:37:09,585 --> 00:37:11,744
too small and too infrequent. We are not

1051
00:37:11,744 --> 00:37:14,144
saying that you need to grab this podcast

1052
00:37:14,144 --> 00:37:15,425
and send it to your wife and say,

1053
00:37:15,425 --> 00:37:16,990
see. I told you we need to do

1054
00:37:16,990 --> 00:37:19,150
more adventurous you know, that is not what

1055
00:37:19,150 --> 00:37:20,590
we are saying. What we are saying is

1056
00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:22,610
Not how to adventure. No. Yeah.

1057
00:37:23,070 --> 00:37:25,869
What we're saying is as you guys make

1058
00:37:25,869 --> 00:37:27,885
it through the crisis phase, which can last

1059
00:37:27,885 --> 00:37:29,485
if you're lucky and do everything right, which

1060
00:37:29,485 --> 00:37:31,485
guys never do, it can be done as

1061
00:37:31,485 --> 00:37:33,085
fast as eight months, but I would say

1062
00:37:33,085 --> 00:37:34,925
most guys screw it up and it goes

1063
00:37:34,925 --> 00:37:37,005
well into a year. And then even phase

1064
00:37:37,005 --> 00:37:40,304
two, phase two is, okay. Hey. We've decided

1065
00:37:40,364 --> 00:37:41,184
that we're gonna,

1066
00:37:41,730 --> 00:37:44,369
try to come together, and she no longer

1067
00:37:44,369 --> 00:37:45,889
has one foot in, one foot out. She

1068
00:37:45,889 --> 00:37:47,889
puts both feet back in, but still phase

1069
00:37:47,889 --> 00:37:50,130
two is delicate as well. So what Jennifer

1070
00:37:50,130 --> 00:37:51,269
and I are saying is

1071
00:37:51,570 --> 00:37:53,809
sex needs to be discussed. There is a

1072
00:37:53,809 --> 00:37:55,605
healthy thing that needs to be, but I

1073
00:37:55,605 --> 00:37:57,005
know some of you guys listening are gonna

1074
00:37:57,005 --> 00:37:59,284
take are gonna take this and run with

1075
00:37:59,284 --> 00:38:01,704
it as a solution to your relational problems.

1076
00:38:02,405 --> 00:38:03,925
It is an element that needs to be

1077
00:38:03,925 --> 00:38:06,324
discussed, but I would also say that in

1078
00:38:06,324 --> 00:38:09,364
the case of, relation sexual betrayal and and,

1079
00:38:09,605 --> 00:38:10,824
the relational healing,

1080
00:38:11,539 --> 00:38:13,780
don't be alarmed, guys, if this is not

1081
00:38:13,780 --> 00:38:16,579
a conversation that comes up for potentially for

1082
00:38:16,579 --> 00:38:18,820
years. I mean, it's Oh, but more than

1083
00:38:18,820 --> 00:38:20,659
that, I this is a this is a

1084
00:38:20,659 --> 00:38:22,679
long role. I wanna say that the sexual

1085
00:38:22,820 --> 00:38:25,905
integration piece of recovery after betrayal trauma, the

1086
00:38:25,905 --> 00:38:28,785
trauma lives in the body. Yeah. Okay. So

1087
00:38:28,785 --> 00:38:31,025
this is often the very last piece. I

1088
00:38:31,025 --> 00:38:32,625
have couples I've worked with for a long

1089
00:38:32,625 --> 00:38:34,305
time that are not ready to touch this.

1090
00:38:34,305 --> 00:38:36,324
The women are just not ready.

1091
00:38:36,864 --> 00:38:38,625
And I take them we can when I

1092
00:38:38,625 --> 00:38:40,545
come back here, you know, we can talk

1093
00:38:40,545 --> 00:38:41,900
about Sensate exercises

1094
00:38:42,599 --> 00:38:44,619
both that men can do on their own

1095
00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:47,559
with healthy sex with self because most men

1096
00:38:47,559 --> 00:38:49,799
don't have any tools to have healthy sex

1097
00:38:49,799 --> 00:38:52,059
with self. They just come to programs,

1098
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,679
SAA or recovery or any program and they're

1099
00:38:54,679 --> 00:38:55,974
just like, I have to stop masturbating.

1100
00:38:56,434 --> 00:38:57,414
That's it. Done.

1101
00:38:57,875 --> 00:39:00,355
And, I when I start talking to them

1102
00:39:00,355 --> 00:39:02,835
about how to integrate healthy masturbation back into

1103
00:39:02,835 --> 00:39:05,235
their life, they're terrified and stunned, and no

1104
00:39:05,235 --> 00:39:06,755
one's ever told them how to do that.

1105
00:39:06,755 --> 00:39:09,315
So I've actually developed a framework for men

1106
00:39:09,315 --> 00:39:09,815
to

1107
00:39:10,119 --> 00:39:13,079
have healthy self with sex with self, which

1108
00:39:13,079 --> 00:39:16,599
is the foundation for them to begin to

1109
00:39:16,599 --> 00:39:18,300
have healthy partnered sex.

1110
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:20,199
And this

1111
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,719
and dealing with betrayal trauma, this this lives

1112
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,615
in the body. So the menu is even

1113
00:39:25,615 --> 00:39:28,255
more important to have deep attunement to your

1114
00:39:28,255 --> 00:39:30,655
partner. What is she feeling? What does she

1115
00:39:30,655 --> 00:39:31,155
need?

1116
00:39:32,015 --> 00:39:33,635
Does she need a foot rub?

1117
00:39:34,015 --> 00:39:36,015
Is that gonna be on the menu tonight?

1118
00:39:36,015 --> 00:39:38,595
And can you deeply attune yourself to that?

1119
00:39:39,410 --> 00:39:42,050
That can be a beautiful experience when you're

1120
00:39:42,050 --> 00:39:43,670
really connected to your partner.

1121
00:39:45,010 --> 00:39:47,170
It's a it's and I think you it's

1122
00:39:47,250 --> 00:39:49,090
I'm happy you brought that up because I

1123
00:39:49,090 --> 00:39:50,450
do think we need to touch on it.

1124
00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:52,289
I've never I don't think I've ever touched

1125
00:39:52,289 --> 00:39:54,844
on it on any episode, but this is

1126
00:39:54,844 --> 00:39:56,605
a topic that comes up in all of

1127
00:39:56,605 --> 00:39:58,385
my guys' groups, masturbation.

1128
00:39:59,405 --> 00:40:01,405
You know, I agree with what Jennifer just

1129
00:40:01,405 --> 00:40:02,304
said. Inherently,

1130
00:40:03,484 --> 00:40:06,045
there is nothing wrong or illegal with masturbation.

1131
00:40:06,045 --> 00:40:07,965
Now maybe your church, you know, my my

1132
00:40:08,125 --> 00:40:09,849
the parent the church that my parents

1133
00:40:10,150 --> 00:40:11,690
tried to bring me up in,

1134
00:40:12,869 --> 00:40:14,710
you know, my I remember masturbating when I

1135
00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:16,230
was, like, four or five years old, and

1136
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:18,390
I told my mom. And my mom told

1137
00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:19,670
me that I was gonna go to hell

1138
00:40:19,670 --> 00:40:21,030
for it, that I wouldn't be able to

1139
00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:22,570
go to the temple. And,

1140
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:24,815
that was my first message

1141
00:40:25,195 --> 00:40:26,335
when exploring

1142
00:40:26,795 --> 00:40:28,875
that with myself. And so,

1143
00:40:29,755 --> 00:40:31,375
you know, there may be some religious

1144
00:40:31,675 --> 00:40:34,315
thing that says you can't masturbate, and, again,

1145
00:40:34,315 --> 00:40:35,755
I'm not gonna tell you what to believe,

1146
00:40:35,755 --> 00:40:37,980
what not to believe. That's your religious choice.

1147
00:40:38,539 --> 00:40:41,980
But inherently, there's nothing wrong with masturbation. You're

1148
00:40:41,980 --> 00:40:43,099
not, you know, you know what? I think

1149
00:40:43,099 --> 00:40:45,019
there's plenty of consent there. No one's being

1150
00:40:45,019 --> 00:40:48,059
hurt by this. Where I have chosen to

1151
00:40:48,059 --> 00:40:49,994
kind of talk to guys about it is

1152
00:40:50,555 --> 00:40:52,575
if you cannot do it without

1153
00:40:53,994 --> 00:40:55,675
watching porn, and what I mean by that

1154
00:40:55,675 --> 00:40:57,934
is even porn stored in your brain,

1155
00:40:58,315 --> 00:40:58,815
fantasy,

1156
00:40:59,595 --> 00:41:02,255
you know, if you cannot do it without

1157
00:41:02,969 --> 00:41:05,369
actually watching porn or watching fake porn with

1158
00:41:05,369 --> 00:41:06,269
your eyes closed,

1159
00:41:06,889 --> 00:41:08,809
I don't know. That's that's probably acting out

1160
00:41:08,809 --> 00:41:12,010
then. But to Jennifer's point, I there are

1161
00:41:12,010 --> 00:41:13,869
lots of therapists out there who actually

1162
00:41:14,409 --> 00:41:17,630
can teach you how you can have a

1163
00:41:18,945 --> 00:41:21,525
masturbation practice that does not involve

1164
00:41:21,825 --> 00:41:22,325
objectifying

1165
00:41:22,704 --> 00:41:25,765
or imagining women that are not your partner.

1166
00:41:25,905 --> 00:41:28,065
Right? There it is possible. You know, we

1167
00:41:28,065 --> 00:41:29,425
don't need to go down that rabbit hole,

1168
00:41:29,425 --> 00:41:31,440
but since you broached the topic, you know,

1169
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:32,559
it did there's gonna be a lot of

1170
00:41:32,559 --> 00:41:34,159
guys who go to SA who are who

1171
00:41:34,159 --> 00:41:35,760
are freaking out right now and say, no.

1172
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:36,820
No. No. No. I can't.

1173
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:39,359
I always say, yeah. You can't if you

1174
00:41:39,359 --> 00:41:39,859
can't

1175
00:41:40,159 --> 00:41:43,599
keep from objectifying women and even No. That's

1176
00:41:43,599 --> 00:41:45,885
not true. I work I work I know

1177
00:41:45,885 --> 00:41:46,945
12 step programs

1178
00:41:47,724 --> 00:41:49,885
as well. I'm I'm as well as anyone.

1179
00:41:49,885 --> 00:41:51,344
I I know them intimately.

1180
00:41:51,804 --> 00:41:52,864
And there's nothing

1181
00:41:53,244 --> 00:41:54,545
in a circle plan,

1182
00:41:55,565 --> 00:41:57,965
right? In in early recovery, we're looking at

1183
00:41:57,965 --> 00:42:00,500
abstinence. There's no masturbation. We're looking you you

1184
00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:02,260
have to work with your individual therapist and

1185
00:42:02,260 --> 00:42:04,519
your sponsor. No no sex, no masturbation

1186
00:42:05,139 --> 00:42:06,820
for a period of time because your body

1187
00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:08,039
and brain needs to heal.

1188
00:42:08,500 --> 00:42:11,059
So we're looking at I go slow with

1189
00:42:11,059 --> 00:42:13,954
men because it's it's very difficult for them,

1190
00:42:13,954 --> 00:42:14,695
but we're

1191
00:42:15,315 --> 00:42:18,275
ninety days, six months, really. I like six

1192
00:42:18,275 --> 00:42:20,434
months. Mhmm. We wanna really give the body

1193
00:42:20,434 --> 00:42:21,815
and brain time to heal.

1194
00:42:22,275 --> 00:42:24,535
And then when we start talking about reintegrating

1195
00:42:25,235 --> 00:42:25,735
masturbation,

1196
00:42:26,980 --> 00:42:27,619
this is not

1197
00:42:28,099 --> 00:42:30,900
we need to take it down to an

1198
00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:31,400
embodied

1199
00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:32,840
sex with self.

1200
00:42:33,380 --> 00:42:34,519
And I have actually

1201
00:42:34,820 --> 00:42:36,739
created a whole framework from him to do

1202
00:42:36,739 --> 00:42:38,820
this. No no one they they're shocked when

1203
00:42:38,820 --> 00:42:40,579
they see it. How how do they do

1204
00:42:40,579 --> 00:42:42,315
this? How do they? These are men who

1205
00:42:42,315 --> 00:42:43,534
say I have never

1206
00:42:44,155 --> 00:42:46,474
masturbated without looking at the porn on the

1207
00:42:46,474 --> 00:42:47,994
screen or the porn in my head, like

1208
00:42:47,994 --> 00:42:50,175
you've so beautifully said Roland.

1209
00:42:51,355 --> 00:42:54,014
And they can do it. You can rewire

1210
00:42:54,155 --> 00:42:56,670
yourself. You can transform. And the reason that

1211
00:42:56,670 --> 00:42:58,829
you can't masturbate and still look at the

1212
00:42:58,829 --> 00:42:59,809
porn in your head

1213
00:43:00,110 --> 00:43:02,849
is because it will deeply impact your relationships.

1214
00:43:02,989 --> 00:43:04,429
Since you're gonna then go into the world

1215
00:43:04,429 --> 00:43:06,269
and you're gonna still be objectifying and you're

1216
00:43:06,269 --> 00:43:08,190
still gonna be spirited and you're still gonna

1217
00:43:08,190 --> 00:43:09,869
not you're gonna not be present when you

1218
00:43:09,869 --> 00:43:11,925
have sex with your wife. It has a

1219
00:43:11,925 --> 00:43:15,224
lasting impact to you to have fully embodied

1220
00:43:15,285 --> 00:43:16,505
sex partner sex.

1221
00:43:18,405 --> 00:43:20,505
Having that experience with oneself

1222
00:43:21,204 --> 00:43:21,704
is

1223
00:43:22,085 --> 00:43:22,585
critical.

1224
00:43:23,260 --> 00:43:25,360
Mhmm. It's a you know, and and,

1225
00:43:26,220 --> 00:43:27,820
you know, healthy sex, you know, you and

1226
00:43:27,820 --> 00:43:29,340
I talked to you and I both talked

1227
00:43:29,340 --> 00:43:31,420
about bringing this into this conversation because it

1228
00:43:31,420 --> 00:43:31,920
is

1229
00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:34,539
it's this taboo topic that no one wants

1230
00:43:34,539 --> 00:43:37,184
to discuss because it technically has to do

1231
00:43:37,184 --> 00:43:39,425
with the genre of what has gotten you

1232
00:43:39,425 --> 00:43:41,664
here and gotten your marriage here. But at

1233
00:43:41,664 --> 00:43:43,345
the same time, I think it's a huge

1234
00:43:43,345 --> 00:43:44,625
disservice to ignore it.

1235
00:43:45,265 --> 00:43:46,485
So let's talk about,

1236
00:43:46,945 --> 00:43:49,505
I love the two pieces that, you and

1237
00:43:49,505 --> 00:43:51,510
I talked about bringing it to this

1238
00:43:51,909 --> 00:43:53,829
recording because I think so many men would

1239
00:43:53,829 --> 00:43:54,710
benefit from it.

1240
00:43:55,349 --> 00:43:56,489
The three second rule.

1241
00:43:56,869 --> 00:43:58,710
It's a for those guys who don't know,

1242
00:43:59,110 --> 00:44:01,110
what the three second rule is, it's kind

1243
00:44:01,110 --> 00:44:03,429
of a 12 step y thing that, is

1244
00:44:03,429 --> 00:44:05,909
is runs runs in 12 step groups. Basically

1245
00:44:05,909 --> 00:44:06,409
saying,

1246
00:44:06,764 --> 00:44:08,924
hey. You know, we're not gonna we're not

1247
00:44:08,924 --> 00:44:11,424
gonna get you in trouble for looking,

1248
00:44:12,364 --> 00:44:13,964
but we don't wanna look very long, and

1249
00:44:13,964 --> 00:44:15,644
we only wanna look once. Right? So, you

1250
00:44:15,644 --> 00:44:17,005
know, they call it three second rule because

1251
00:44:17,005 --> 00:44:18,809
it's like, okay. Hey. You looked over there.

1252
00:44:19,050 --> 00:44:20,809
You got you know, there's a couple seconds.

1253
00:44:20,809 --> 00:44:23,050
Alright. Now anything more than that is acting

1254
00:44:23,050 --> 00:44:24,489
out. It's just kind of like a measure

1255
00:44:24,489 --> 00:44:27,849
of kinda keeping us honest about objectifying people

1256
00:44:27,849 --> 00:44:28,510
in public.

1257
00:44:29,210 --> 00:44:31,769
What is your technique around that and how

1258
00:44:31,769 --> 00:44:34,110
is it different from the 12 step ideology?

1259
00:44:34,775 --> 00:44:37,015
Yeah. So a lot of men think that

1260
00:44:37,015 --> 00:44:38,614
the three second rule is that they have

1261
00:44:38,614 --> 00:44:40,695
three seconds to look and then kinda shame

1262
00:44:40,695 --> 00:44:42,695
themselves and beat themselves up and say, oh,

1263
00:44:42,695 --> 00:44:44,535
I looked three seconds. I didn't look good.

1264
00:44:44,535 --> 00:44:46,614
Okay. I use the three second rule. So

1265
00:44:46,614 --> 00:44:49,170
I like to use it actually for transformation

1266
00:44:49,550 --> 00:44:53,230
to actually rewire yourself because that's that's the

1267
00:44:53,230 --> 00:44:55,650
work I do. I'm not about behavioral change.

1268
00:44:55,949 --> 00:44:57,010
I'm about transformation.

1269
00:44:57,869 --> 00:45:00,190
The second one. Okay? We're we're gonna use

1270
00:45:00,190 --> 00:45:02,349
second one, second two, second three. You're you're

1271
00:45:02,349 --> 00:45:04,514
at the supermarket and you see the the

1272
00:45:04,514 --> 00:45:06,135
stimulus. You see the

1273
00:45:06,514 --> 00:45:09,394
the visual image that grabs you. And that's

1274
00:45:09,394 --> 00:45:11,094
second one. You it happens.

1275
00:45:11,714 --> 00:45:12,614
Second two

1276
00:45:13,554 --> 00:45:15,234
is you take a breath and you look

1277
00:45:15,234 --> 00:45:15,734
away.

1278
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,480
And you say to yourself, this is someone's

1279
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:18,980
child.

1280
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,059
This this is someone's

1281
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:22,500
partner.

1282
00:45:23,119 --> 00:45:24,719
Mhmm. And this is not the man I

1283
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,119
wanna be. You you find a statement that

1284
00:45:27,119 --> 00:45:28,559
you say to yourself. It doesn't need to

1285
00:45:28,559 --> 00:45:30,079
be what I just said, but something that

1286
00:45:30,079 --> 00:45:31,700
resonates deeply and often

1287
00:45:32,614 --> 00:45:33,755
something that humanizes

1288
00:45:34,295 --> 00:45:36,074
the person that you're staring at.

1289
00:45:36,775 --> 00:45:38,775
Okay, we want, we want to move the

1290
00:45:38,775 --> 00:45:40,614
person is not an object for you to

1291
00:45:40,614 --> 00:45:41,514
feed off of

1292
00:45:41,815 --> 00:45:42,474
and consume.

1293
00:45:43,815 --> 00:45:44,795
This is someone

1294
00:45:45,630 --> 00:45:47,069
that is a human being and you want

1295
00:45:47,069 --> 00:45:48,750
to find value in them as a human

1296
00:45:48,750 --> 00:45:51,230
being. So you have one second to see

1297
00:45:51,230 --> 00:45:53,230
them, one second to get in touch with

1298
00:45:53,230 --> 00:45:54,510
the fact that they are you are a

1299
00:45:54,510 --> 00:45:56,269
human being. I am a man and this

1300
00:45:56,269 --> 00:45:57,949
is not how I wanna be. And this

1301
00:45:57,949 --> 00:45:59,630
is a person that I don't wanna do

1302
00:45:59,630 --> 00:46:00,449
this to.

1303
00:46:01,364 --> 00:46:02,985
This is someone's daughter.

1304
00:46:03,844 --> 00:46:04,824
Second three

1305
00:46:05,125 --> 00:46:06,905
is the prayer or the mantra.

1306
00:46:08,244 --> 00:46:10,425
And it could be the serenity prayer.

1307
00:46:10,724 --> 00:46:12,565
Some people really like that. For people who

1308
00:46:12,565 --> 00:46:15,284
don't want to use God themed language, it

1309
00:46:15,284 --> 00:46:17,039
could be any mantra you choose.

1310
00:46:17,599 --> 00:46:18,239
Could be,

1311
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:19,780
you know, I

1312
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:20,820
I

1313
00:46:21,119 --> 00:46:23,300
I release myself. I am free.

1314
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,000
I am I am a man of light

1315
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,320
and power. Anything that you wanna say, I'm

1316
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,640
stepping into my my wise man now. I

1317
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:30,974
am

1318
00:46:31,454 --> 00:46:34,095
stepping into the world with empowerment. Whatever you

1319
00:46:34,095 --> 00:46:35,614
wanna say. Or you can just say the

1320
00:46:35,614 --> 00:46:37,855
serenity prayer, which I find pretty neutral. You

1321
00:46:37,855 --> 00:46:39,454
can take out the God language if you

1322
00:46:39,454 --> 00:46:40,994
want and say higher power,

1323
00:46:41,934 --> 00:46:43,650
and then you move on. And you know

1324
00:46:43,650 --> 00:46:45,489
what? And and there there might be days

1325
00:46:45,489 --> 00:46:47,409
in your recovery where you have to use

1326
00:46:47,409 --> 00:46:48,389
the three second

1327
00:46:48,849 --> 00:46:49,349
technique

1328
00:46:49,969 --> 00:46:52,309
a thousand times, and that's okay.

1329
00:46:52,929 --> 00:46:55,089
Every time you use it, you're rewiring your

1330
00:46:55,089 --> 00:46:55,589
brain.

1331
00:46:56,694 --> 00:46:58,775
Mhmm. Mhmm. And I and I I I

1332
00:46:58,775 --> 00:47:01,014
can't remember who told me that approach. Somebody

1333
00:47:01,175 --> 00:47:03,094
I think somebody I met early on in

1334
00:47:03,094 --> 00:47:05,255
recovery, similar things. They were a little bit

1335
00:47:05,255 --> 00:47:07,755
different than that, but, similar of, like,

1336
00:47:08,210 --> 00:47:10,549
hey. Let's take this let's take this moment

1337
00:47:10,690 --> 00:47:12,929
and use it, rather than, like you said,

1338
00:47:12,929 --> 00:47:15,489
just looking and then, you know, because it

1339
00:47:15,489 --> 00:47:17,409
is. The second thought is always shame. I

1340
00:47:17,409 --> 00:47:19,489
mean, it's like, gosh. Dang it. You know,

1341
00:47:19,489 --> 00:47:20,529
why can't I you know, and then why

1342
00:47:20,529 --> 00:47:22,049
do I wanna look again? Right? And it's

1343
00:47:22,049 --> 00:47:24,844
all this negative negative negative negative. Whereas,

1344
00:47:25,144 --> 00:47:27,164
when you rehumanize the individual,

1345
00:47:27,945 --> 00:47:29,224
you know, that to me, it's one of

1346
00:47:29,224 --> 00:47:30,905
the most powerful things we can do. I

1347
00:47:30,905 --> 00:47:32,505
mean, I to me, I think all of

1348
00:47:32,505 --> 00:47:34,204
this happens because we've dehumanized

1349
00:47:34,664 --> 00:47:36,025
women. You know, the you know, when I

1350
00:47:36,025 --> 00:47:38,045
think about all the things that I've done,

1351
00:47:38,690 --> 00:47:39,750
it's all because

1352
00:47:40,690 --> 00:47:43,349
I stopped seeing the humanity in them and,

1353
00:47:43,730 --> 00:47:45,889
stopped seeing the humanity myself as well, right,

1354
00:47:45,889 --> 00:47:48,690
which is usually the precursor to not seeing

1355
00:47:48,690 --> 00:47:50,369
humanity and others is if I don't get

1356
00:47:50,369 --> 00:47:51,730
to be human, then none of you get

1357
00:47:51,730 --> 00:47:52,849
to be human as well. And it kind

1358
00:47:52,849 --> 00:47:53,829
of opens the floodgates.

1359
00:47:54,545 --> 00:47:56,224
Gates. I write about this in my book.

1360
00:47:56,224 --> 00:47:58,224
It's a hard chapter to write about because

1361
00:47:58,224 --> 00:47:59,905
I hate to admit that that's what happened.

1362
00:47:59,905 --> 00:48:01,505
But, you know, a lot of high achieving

1363
00:48:01,505 --> 00:48:03,505
men, I think, they don't realize that they've

1364
00:48:03,505 --> 00:48:06,480
dehumanized themselves, but they've turned themselves into success

1365
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,079
robots. You know? I know how to be

1366
00:48:08,079 --> 00:48:09,920
good at everything and I'm gonna go do

1367
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:11,380
that. And they don't feel,

1368
00:48:11,679 --> 00:48:12,980
they don't express,

1369
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:14,980
you know, it's head down, grind.

1370
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,460
They buy the fancy t shirts that say,

1371
00:48:17,599 --> 00:48:19,059
no one cares, work harder.

1372
00:48:19,394 --> 00:48:21,715
1% every bit did better every day, and

1373
00:48:21,715 --> 00:48:24,675
we all feel really good about, ourselves by

1374
00:48:24,675 --> 00:48:27,394
subscribing to these various mantras. But in the

1375
00:48:27,394 --> 00:48:29,015
end, humans weren't meant to,

1376
00:48:29,635 --> 00:48:31,994
stack it up and, torment themselves to make

1377
00:48:31,994 --> 00:48:33,929
a bunch of cash. You can go on

1378
00:48:34,170 --> 00:48:36,329
more elaborate vacations. You know, we're we're here

1379
00:48:36,329 --> 00:48:38,409
for something different than that. And then the

1380
00:48:38,409 --> 00:48:40,269
last topic I wanna hit on because,

1381
00:48:40,650 --> 00:48:42,170
I wanna make sure we bring this up

1382
00:48:42,170 --> 00:48:44,250
before we run out of time is the

1383
00:48:44,250 --> 00:48:45,469
darn free circles.

1384
00:48:46,625 --> 00:48:48,864
We got these dang three circles, and there's

1385
00:48:48,864 --> 00:48:50,704
some people who like them, some people who

1386
00:48:50,704 --> 00:48:53,204
hate them. There's people like me who,

1387
00:48:54,625 --> 00:48:56,464
I I always wonder what the heck to

1388
00:48:56,464 --> 00:48:58,464
put in the middle. It's almost like, to

1389
00:48:58,464 --> 00:48:59,905
me, if I don't put everything in the

1390
00:48:59,905 --> 00:49:02,065
middle, then it doesn't work because then there's

1391
00:49:02,065 --> 00:49:04,539
all these, like, caveats and gray area,

1392
00:49:05,159 --> 00:49:06,920
and it's caused actually a good amount. I

1393
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,179
remember the the first the first year, especially,

1394
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,239
the three circles actually caused a lot of,

1395
00:49:13,159 --> 00:49:15,755
problems in my relationship because there there were

1396
00:49:15,755 --> 00:49:17,114
certain things that I couldn't put in the

1397
00:49:17,114 --> 00:49:19,775
middle circle because they're too vague, and they

1398
00:49:19,994 --> 00:49:21,835
just happen all the time out of my

1399
00:49:21,835 --> 00:49:23,114
control. So I didn't wanna put them in

1400
00:49:23,114 --> 00:49:24,635
the middle circle because I was like, well,

1401
00:49:24,635 --> 00:49:27,275
then I'll barely have, you know, six hours

1402
00:49:27,275 --> 00:49:28,409
of sobriety ever.

1403
00:49:29,369 --> 00:49:31,489
But it's it's it's this convoluted thing that's

1404
00:49:31,609 --> 00:49:33,369
I think it was designed to be helpful,

1405
00:49:33,369 --> 00:49:36,250
and I often wonder sometimes how helpful it

1406
00:49:36,250 --> 00:49:37,069
really is.

1407
00:49:37,690 --> 00:49:39,389
You and I discussed kind of

1408
00:49:39,769 --> 00:49:40,269
reexamining

1409
00:49:40,809 --> 00:49:43,369
that. What's Jennifer's take on how to set

1410
00:49:43,369 --> 00:49:45,655
that up? Yeah. Well, the three circles plan

1411
00:49:45,655 --> 00:49:47,655
is so critical for men in recovery or

1412
00:49:47,655 --> 00:49:50,054
for I I use it for everyone. I

1413
00:49:50,054 --> 00:49:53,175
love it. It's visual. It's dynamic. It's not

1414
00:49:53,175 --> 00:49:55,094
written in ink. It can be written in

1415
00:49:55,094 --> 00:49:57,014
pencil. Things can move in and out of

1416
00:49:57,014 --> 00:49:57,514
circles.

1417
00:49:58,320 --> 00:49:59,619
It's a plan for life.

1418
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:00,500
And

1419
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,980
what I love is the outer circle,

1420
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:04,880
okay, which is not even talked about. Yeah.

1421
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:06,079
That's the one that that's I was gonna

1422
00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:08,000
say that's the one that we all examine

1423
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,519
that one once when we make the plan

1424
00:50:09,519 --> 00:50:11,119
and then we never look at it again.

1425
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:13,815
I'm all about let's live outer circle lives.

1426
00:50:13,815 --> 00:50:14,714
It's not about avoiding

1427
00:50:15,414 --> 00:50:17,574
the inner. Living it fill your life with

1428
00:50:17,574 --> 00:50:19,675
as many outer circles as possible.

1429
00:50:20,454 --> 00:50:22,635
I mean, really structure your day. That's recovery.

1430
00:50:23,175 --> 00:50:26,534
Yeah. So much self care. Mhmm. Yeah. Pillars

1431
00:50:26,534 --> 00:50:27,750
of self care with

1432
00:50:28,389 --> 00:50:29,449
beautiful meals

1433
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:30,570
and exercise

1434
00:50:30,949 --> 00:50:31,849
and nature

1435
00:50:32,309 --> 00:50:33,530
and creativity

1436
00:50:33,989 --> 00:50:36,650
and connection that makes you feel good

1437
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:40,389
and drinking lots of water and spending time

1438
00:50:40,389 --> 00:50:42,250
with people that uplift you

1439
00:50:42,704 --> 00:50:45,105
and doing work that inspires you. And if

1440
00:50:45,105 --> 00:50:47,204
you're in a job that's bringing you down,

1441
00:50:47,585 --> 00:50:49,585
make a plan to find a different I

1442
00:50:49,585 --> 00:50:51,825
have music in mine. I mean, mine mine

1443
00:50:51,825 --> 00:50:54,224
is I I get up and anytime I

1444
00:50:54,224 --> 00:50:57,344
feel like a little weird egoic addict y

1445
00:50:57,344 --> 00:50:58,325
thing going on,

1446
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:00,839
I run up and throw some music on

1447
00:51:00,839 --> 00:51:03,559
and that is incredible at how much it

1448
00:51:03,559 --> 00:51:05,319
helps. And so I just wanted to slip

1449
00:51:05,319 --> 00:51:07,319
that in there as, guys, there's really no

1450
00:51:07,319 --> 00:51:08,920
limit to what can be in your outer

1451
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:10,679
circle as long as it makes you more

1452
00:51:10,679 --> 00:51:11,179
you.

1453
00:51:11,704 --> 00:51:14,505
Yes. As long as it's life affirming, soul

1454
00:51:14,505 --> 00:51:15,644
affirming, relationship

1455
00:51:16,025 --> 00:51:17,164
affirming, healthy.

1456
00:51:17,864 --> 00:51:20,264
The middle circle, I I don't look at

1457
00:51:20,264 --> 00:51:22,744
the the middle circle as a slippery slope

1458
00:51:22,744 --> 00:51:24,764
down down to the the inner.

1459
00:51:25,089 --> 00:51:26,630
I look at it as

1460
00:51:26,929 --> 00:51:28,369
it can either it's sort of like chutes

1461
00:51:28,369 --> 00:51:30,210
and ladders, that game. I think it can

1462
00:51:30,210 --> 00:51:31,889
bring you up or bring you down. Right?

1463
00:51:31,889 --> 00:51:33,170
So if we if we were looking at

1464
00:51:33,170 --> 00:51:33,909
an alcoholic,

1465
00:51:34,769 --> 00:51:36,710
going to a bar is not a relapse

1466
00:51:37,505 --> 00:51:38,164
at all.

1467
00:51:38,785 --> 00:51:40,065
There can be a lot of great but

1468
00:51:40,065 --> 00:51:41,985
it belongs in the middle for sure. If

1469
00:51:41,985 --> 00:51:43,905
you're a newly sober alcoholic, we're not gonna

1470
00:51:43,905 --> 00:51:45,344
put and now going to the bar is

1471
00:51:45,344 --> 00:51:47,664
not an outer, and it's not an inner.

1472
00:51:47,664 --> 00:51:48,644
It's not a relapse.

1473
00:51:49,025 --> 00:51:51,719
So it can be a slippery slope behavior

1474
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:53,420
if you're going to the bar to

1475
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:54,460
to vicariously

1476
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,019
stare at all the people drinking and

1477
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,119
fantasize about drinking and get triggered by it,

1478
00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:02,295
then sure, you're gonna drink. But if you're

1479
00:52:02,295 --> 00:52:04,534
going to the bar because you're meeting your

1480
00:52:04,534 --> 00:52:07,335
creative partner there to discuss your next creative

1481
00:52:07,335 --> 00:52:09,014
project and that was the only place to

1482
00:52:09,014 --> 00:52:09,514
meet,

1483
00:52:09,815 --> 00:52:11,655
and you're lit up and you're excited and

1484
00:52:11,655 --> 00:52:13,964
you're tapped in and plugged into life Mhmm.

1485
00:52:14,214 --> 00:52:14,954
Then it's

1486
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,719
a high middle. It's leading you to the

1487
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:19,719
outer. Right? So it's the middle circle is

1488
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:20,539
about intentionality.

1489
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,199
Mhmm. Right? It's it's people, it's places, it's

1490
00:52:24,199 --> 00:52:24,699
things

1491
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:26,440
that we need to keep an eye on.

1492
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,519
Mhmm. We don't we don't walk blindly when

1493
00:52:28,519 --> 00:52:30,860
we're in recovery. It's about consciousness.

1494
00:52:31,505 --> 00:52:33,045
Men need to be conscious.

1495
00:52:33,585 --> 00:52:35,505
So when you're the reason I like this

1496
00:52:35,505 --> 00:52:36,005
plan,

1497
00:52:36,305 --> 00:52:38,724
the circle plan, is it's a visual reminder.

1498
00:52:38,945 --> 00:52:40,724
You can look at it and say,

1499
00:52:41,105 --> 00:52:43,105
wait a minute, where am I? And it's

1500
00:52:43,105 --> 00:52:45,179
also a wonderful tool when you're in relationship

1501
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,500
repair to show to your partner.

1502
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,039
Mhmm. Yeah. I agree with that. Every wife

1503
00:52:50,039 --> 00:52:51,579
that I've worked with loves

1504
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:53,260
seeing these circle plans.

1505
00:52:53,559 --> 00:52:55,719
And I can't neglect to mention that inner

1506
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:56,219
circle.

1507
00:52:56,855 --> 00:52:58,694
Many men don't want to do it because

1508
00:52:58,694 --> 00:53:01,014
they do not, the reason it's small, there's

1509
00:53:01,014 --> 00:53:03,014
a there's a method to the circle plan.

1510
00:53:03,014 --> 00:53:05,255
The middle start, the little circle, the tiny

1511
00:53:05,255 --> 00:53:07,414
one is small. The middle is a little

1512
00:53:07,414 --> 00:53:09,335
bit bigger and the outer is big. Why

1513
00:53:09,335 --> 00:53:12,019
is that? The little one is small because

1514
00:53:12,019 --> 00:53:13,780
you need to be able to define your

1515
00:53:13,780 --> 00:53:16,519
acting out behaviors in very concise,

1516
00:53:16,980 --> 00:53:17,480
brief,

1517
00:53:18,340 --> 00:53:18,840
staccato.

1518
00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:21,940
I call them Hemingway sentences. We want short

1519
00:53:21,940 --> 00:53:22,440
sentences.

1520
00:53:22,885 --> 00:53:24,325
I don't want a lot of explanation. Oh,

1521
00:53:24,325 --> 00:53:25,925
I can only look at porn on every

1522
00:53:25,925 --> 00:53:27,765
other Wednesday if it's this and that and

1523
00:53:27,765 --> 00:53:29,224
that. No. No porn.

1524
00:53:29,845 --> 00:53:31,864
No sex with anyone but my wife.

1525
00:53:33,045 --> 00:53:34,739
What else is there? No images.

1526
00:53:35,699 --> 00:53:37,880
Done. No social media. Done.

1527
00:53:38,659 --> 00:53:40,119
We don't need a lot of justifications.

1528
00:53:40,659 --> 00:53:42,760
We don't need rationalizations. It should

1529
00:53:43,219 --> 00:53:44,360
be two or three

1530
00:53:44,820 --> 00:53:45,320
concise

1531
00:53:45,780 --> 00:53:48,625
simple sentences in your inner. Middle,

1532
00:53:48,925 --> 00:53:51,105
we have more. There's a little more room.

1533
00:53:51,164 --> 00:53:53,885
Now get that outer circle gorgeous and beautiful

1534
00:53:53,885 --> 00:53:54,784
and live it.

1535
00:53:55,565 --> 00:53:56,464
And I love

1536
00:53:57,085 --> 00:53:59,025
Jennifer, I when you and I met,

1537
00:53:59,644 --> 00:54:02,224
I was talking to my wife shortly after,

1538
00:54:02,284 --> 00:54:04,010
and I said, you know what? I said,

1539
00:54:04,010 --> 00:54:06,489
it's really interesting. I said, she's very, like,

1540
00:54:06,489 --> 00:54:07,469
tried and true

1541
00:54:08,010 --> 00:54:08,510
with

1542
00:54:08,969 --> 00:54:11,210
the stuff that we all know about, but

1543
00:54:11,210 --> 00:54:13,530
I said, it's really interesting. She has come

1544
00:54:13,530 --> 00:54:14,349
in and

1545
00:54:15,494 --> 00:54:18,214
really, you know, to me, where the where

1546
00:54:18,214 --> 00:54:19,275
a lot of the traditional

1547
00:54:19,574 --> 00:54:21,355
practices fall short is

1548
00:54:21,974 --> 00:54:24,855
they get addressed once in the first three

1549
00:54:24,855 --> 00:54:26,934
weeks when really the guy has no freaking

1550
00:54:26,934 --> 00:54:28,409
idea that he's even an addict.

1551
00:54:29,049 --> 00:54:30,569
You know, he has no idea that he's

1552
00:54:30,569 --> 00:54:31,069
compulsive.

1553
00:54:31,449 --> 00:54:33,609
He he he frankly just doesn't wanna keep

1554
00:54:33,609 --> 00:54:36,409
coming to therapy. He's telling himself, yeah, I'll

1555
00:54:36,409 --> 00:54:38,409
go to, like, eight or nine twelve step

1556
00:54:38,409 --> 00:54:40,329
meetings, get the bang out the steps, and

1557
00:54:40,329 --> 00:54:42,025
then I'll be done. Right? And that's when

1558
00:54:42,025 --> 00:54:43,864
we have the guy create all this very

1559
00:54:43,864 --> 00:54:44,364
critical

1560
00:54:45,385 --> 00:54:45,885
recovery

1561
00:54:46,265 --> 00:54:47,065
stuff. And,

1562
00:54:47,864 --> 00:54:50,585
what I love about what you're encouraging is

1563
00:54:50,585 --> 00:54:53,304
it's ownership over it. It's it's ownership over

1564
00:54:53,304 --> 00:54:55,349
your arousal template. And if we need to

1565
00:54:55,349 --> 00:54:56,869
talk about it for three or four months,

1566
00:54:56,869 --> 00:54:58,269
then then we'll talk about it for three

1567
00:54:58,269 --> 00:55:00,230
or four months. It's ownership over your three

1568
00:55:00,230 --> 00:55:01,509
circles. If we need to talk about it

1569
00:55:01,509 --> 00:55:02,989
for three or four months, we'll talk about

1570
00:55:02,989 --> 00:55:04,389
it for three or four months. But I

1571
00:55:04,389 --> 00:55:06,150
think that's the thing I love about you

1572
00:55:06,150 --> 00:55:07,034
is it's like,

1573
00:55:07,994 --> 00:55:10,875
it's, you know, let's really give all of

1574
00:55:10,875 --> 00:55:11,694
these things

1575
00:55:12,074 --> 00:55:12,574
the

1576
00:55:13,194 --> 00:55:16,074
attention they deserve because I do think they

1577
00:55:16,074 --> 00:55:18,155
get checked off, and I do think I

1578
00:55:18,155 --> 00:55:20,394
don't think therapists mean to. Therapists are trying

1579
00:55:20,394 --> 00:55:21,135
to be helpful,

1580
00:55:21,860 --> 00:55:23,699
and they're kind of trying to march through

1581
00:55:23,699 --> 00:55:25,619
the long process because this is not a

1582
00:55:25,619 --> 00:55:26,360
short process.

1583
00:55:26,820 --> 00:55:29,699
But I think I love your emphasis on,

1584
00:55:29,699 --> 00:55:30,199
like,

1585
00:55:30,500 --> 00:55:32,500
this is all about living a good life.

1586
00:55:32,500 --> 00:55:34,514
So how do we use all these really,

1587
00:55:34,674 --> 00:55:37,574
really well thought out tools to actually modify

1588
00:55:37,714 --> 00:55:39,074
our living? So I just I love that

1589
00:55:39,074 --> 00:55:41,074
so much about you. I I have a

1590
00:55:41,074 --> 00:55:43,154
feeling we're gonna be doing more of these

1591
00:55:43,154 --> 00:55:46,275
podcasts going forward, you and I. Jennifer, how

1592
00:55:46,275 --> 00:55:46,835
can people

1593
00:55:48,170 --> 00:55:49,690
I know you're you're in the midst of,

1594
00:55:49,690 --> 00:55:52,170
like, launching so much cool stuff. You're speaking

1595
00:55:52,170 --> 00:55:53,930
at ITAP in a couple months. I'm excited

1596
00:55:53,930 --> 00:55:54,989
to go see you there.

1597
00:55:55,610 --> 00:55:56,329
But you're

1598
00:55:56,809 --> 00:55:58,730
you you've got all these, like, neat things

1599
00:55:58,730 --> 00:56:00,489
on the rise for now. I know some

1600
00:56:00,489 --> 00:56:01,950
of it's still in its development.

1601
00:56:02,594 --> 00:56:05,554
If guys want, guys, couples want to do

1602
00:56:05,554 --> 00:56:07,635
some work with you, what are these offerings?

1603
00:56:07,635 --> 00:56:10,434
How do they get more information? Okay. Well,

1604
00:56:10,434 --> 00:56:11,875
they can find me.

1605
00:56:12,195 --> 00:56:13,494
I'm on the Internet.

1606
00:56:13,954 --> 00:56:14,994
You can find me there.

1607
00:56:15,474 --> 00:56:16,775
If my name is Jennifer

1608
00:56:17,639 --> 00:56:18,699
Rudich Ginsberg.

1609
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:21,239
Will you have some sort of option for

1610
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:22,760
me? Yeah. We can throw this link in

1611
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:24,679
the Okay. And then you can link to

1612
00:56:24,679 --> 00:56:27,159
my website. Yep. Mhmm. And there's a million

1613
00:56:27,159 --> 00:56:29,079
ways to contact me on my website. There's

1614
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:31,659
a phone number, there's an email contact,

1615
00:56:32,184 --> 00:56:34,605
and I am the founder and the

1616
00:56:35,144 --> 00:56:37,304
owner of my practice which is called the

1617
00:56:37,304 --> 00:56:38,444
Intimacy Clinic.

1618
00:56:38,984 --> 00:56:42,344
And I I see individuals and couples and,

1619
00:56:42,744 --> 00:56:45,704
I do customized intensives and I've also created

1620
00:56:45,704 --> 00:56:46,444
two workbooks,

1621
00:56:46,929 --> 00:56:47,670
one for

1622
00:56:48,130 --> 00:56:50,789
men in recovery. It's called The King's Path,

1623
00:56:51,329 --> 00:56:54,469
a man's guide to emotional leadership and intimacy.

1624
00:56:54,690 --> 00:56:57,170
And I've created a workbook for women. It's

1625
00:56:57,170 --> 00:56:58,469
called embracing aloneness,

1626
00:56:59,264 --> 00:57:02,804
a woman's path to relational healing and reclaiming

1627
00:57:03,025 --> 00:57:03,525
power.

1628
00:57:03,984 --> 00:57:06,704
And I'm teaching embracing aloneness at the I

1629
00:57:06,704 --> 00:57:07,525
TAP Symposium

1630
00:57:07,824 --> 00:57:09,684
of Maine. I'm excited. Yes.

1631
00:57:10,385 --> 00:57:12,239
So, yes, that is how you find me.

1632
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:14,719
Yes. Yeah. I love it so much. Jennifer,

1633
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:16,880
this was wonderful. I so much appreciate you

1634
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:19,599
sharing, your knowledge with us, and I cannot

1635
00:57:19,599 --> 00:57:21,679
wait to do this again because you and

1636
00:57:21,679 --> 00:57:23,039
I have a bunch of other stuff that

1637
00:57:23,039 --> 00:57:24,400
we wrote down that we didn't even get

1638
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:25,724
to talk about that we'll talk about next

1639
00:57:25,724 --> 00:57:27,005
time. So thank you so much for your

1640
00:57:27,005 --> 00:57:28,765
time. Thank you, Roland. It was a pleasure

1641
00:57:28,765 --> 00:57:30,445
to be here. Thank you for having me.

1642
00:57:30,445 --> 00:57:32,525
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1643
00:57:32,525 --> 00:57:34,285
are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1644
00:57:34,285 --> 00:57:35,965
and you're looking for a recovery group full

1645
00:57:35,965 --> 00:57:38,940
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1646
00:57:39,179 --> 00:57:41,980
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1647
00:57:41,980 --> 00:57:43,199
using four day retreats,

1648
00:57:43,579 --> 00:57:46,319
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1649
00:57:46,380 --> 00:57:48,619
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1650
00:57:48,619 --> 00:57:50,539
save your marriage, go to our website and

1651
00:57:50,539 --> 00:57:51,440
fill out our application.

1652
00:57:51,819 --> 00:57:54,300
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1653
00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:55,825
along to a friend in recovery who would

1654
00:57:55,825 --> 00:57:57,825
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1655
00:57:57,825 --> 00:57:59,585
get this information out to as many high

1656
00:57:59,585 --> 00:58:01,825
achievers as possible, and I can't do it

1657
00:58:01,825 --> 00:58:02,805
without your help.