1
00:00:00.240 –> 00:00:01.839
– I’ve never had a guy where I’m gone,

2
00:00:01.839 –> 00:00:03.839
– hey. So would you like your sister, your

3
00:00:03.839 –> 00:00:06.000
– mom, your wife, your daughter to be in

4
00:00:06.000 –> 00:00:07.519
– porn? I’ve never had a guy have to

5
00:00:07.519 –> 00:00:09.359
– think about it. They just instantly go, no.

6
00:00:09.359 –> 00:00:10.639
– Why is it just an instant no? You

7
00:00:10.639 –> 00:00:12.320
– didn’t let go study. They didn’t go, well,

8
00:00:12.320 –> 00:00:13.839
– you know, maybe they make good money. They

9
00:00:13.839 –> 00:00:15.734
– go, no. I go, well, why? Because you

10
00:00:15.734 –> 00:00:17.574
– know them. So then that brings us back

11
00:00:17.574 –> 00:00:19.655
– to, well, it’s an intimacy disorder. Right? So

12
00:00:19.655 –> 00:00:21.574
– I am living in a way where I

13
00:00:21.574 –> 00:00:24.855
– am objectifying human bodies, consuming human bodies, and

14
00:00:24.855 –> 00:00:26.774
– I’m training myself to not see them as

15
00:00:26.774 –> 00:00:28.614
– people, but to see them as things for

16
00:00:28.614 –> 00:00:29.355
– me to consume.

17
00:00:32.130 –> 00:00:34.229
– You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

18
00:00:34.289 –> 00:00:37.509
– for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

19
00:00:37.890 –> 00:00:40.450
– This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

20
00:00:40.450 –> 00:00:43.729
– recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

21
00:00:43.729 –> 00:00:44.390
– high achiever.

22
00:00:44.770 –> 00:00:47.094
– I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

23
00:00:47.094 –> 00:00:49.575
– Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

24
00:00:49.575 –> 00:00:52.054
– men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

25
00:00:52.054 –> 00:00:54.375
– more information about joining our group or attending

26
00:00:54.375 –> 00:00:57.354
– our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

27
00:00:57.414 –> 00:00:59.515
– And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

28
00:01:02.189 –> 00:01:04.030
– It was just porn or oh, it was

29
00:01:04.030 –> 00:01:06.829
– all online or we never actually had sex.

30
00:01:06.829 –> 00:01:08.909
– Right? There’s all sorts of these excuses that

31
00:01:08.909 –> 00:01:11.170
– guys come up with that make their behavior

32
00:01:11.229 –> 00:01:13.310
– sound better than some of the things that

33
00:01:13.310 –> 00:01:14.829
– other guys had done or that there could

34
00:01:14.829 –> 00:01:16.989
– have been worse. Here’s the problem with this.

35
00:01:16.989 –> 00:01:18.724
– For one, it’s bad for your recovery. I

36
00:01:18.724 –> 00:01:21.125
– would stop putting your behaviors on some sort

37
00:01:21.125 –> 00:01:22.645
– of hierarchy that’s not gonna benefit you at

38
00:01:22.645 –> 00:01:24.084
– all. And if you’re a married guy, I

39
00:01:24.084 –> 00:01:25.924
– would really stop putting your behaviors on a

40
00:01:25.924 –> 00:01:27.924
– hierarchy because here’s the thing. Lying is lying,

41
00:01:27.924 –> 00:01:30.564
– cheating is chaining, deception is deception. Doesn’t matter

42
00:01:30.564 –> 00:01:32.609
– how far you went with these people. It

43
00:01:32.609 –> 00:01:34.450
– doesn’t matter if it was just pornography. The

44
00:01:34.450 –> 00:01:37.010
– fact is you were getting your sexual needs

45
00:01:37.010 –> 00:01:38.290
– outside of the marriage and you were not

46
00:01:38.290 –> 00:01:39.969
– being honest about it. And we talk about

47
00:01:39.969 –> 00:01:41.409
– that in this episode because to get in

48
00:01:41.409 –> 00:01:43.409
– good recovery actually heal your marriage, you gotta

49
00:01:43.409 –> 00:01:45.829
– stop comparing your behaviors to other behaviors.

50
00:01:46.334 –> 00:01:48.594
– Chris Burns, thanks for joining me today, homie.

51
00:01:48.734 –> 00:01:50.575
– Hey. I’m excited to be here. I am

52
00:01:50.575 –> 00:01:52.495
– too. We haven’t talked about this topic in

53
00:01:52.495 –> 00:01:53.935
– a while, but I hear it all the

54
00:01:53.935 –> 00:01:56.655
– time. Right? It’s this whole philosophy of, hey,

55
00:01:56.655 –> 00:01:58.859
– it’s just porn. It’s not cheating. You know,

56
00:01:58.859 –> 00:02:00.700
– I don’t get what she’s going on and

57
00:02:00.700 –> 00:02:03.200
– on about. Sometimes, you know, it doesn’t happen

58
00:02:03.260 –> 00:02:04.780
– often in my groups, but I’ve sure heard

59
00:02:04.780 –> 00:02:07.659
– it when when guys are comparing their addictions.

60
00:02:07.659 –> 00:02:09.500
– Like, oh, wow. I wish I just stopped

61
00:02:09.500 –> 00:02:11.645
– at porn. My wife would forgive me. And

62
00:02:11.645 –> 00:02:13.245
– I’m just gonna give you guys advice right

63
00:02:13.245 –> 00:02:15.164
– now. Please don’t say that to another guy.

64
00:02:15.164 –> 00:02:16.844
– And certainly don’t say it around his his

65
00:02:16.844 –> 00:02:18.685
– wife. Because I’ll tell you right now, Chris,

66
00:02:18.685 –> 00:02:21.164
– in my experience, probably yours, I don’t see

67
00:02:21.164 –> 00:02:23.724
– a a big difference between the guys who

68
00:02:23.724 –> 00:02:25.879
– have crossed the flesh line, which is what

69
00:02:25.879 –> 00:02:27.560
– we call it in our groups at least,

70
00:02:27.560 –> 00:02:29.319
– versus the guys who haven’t crossed the flesh

71
00:02:29.319 –> 00:02:31.800
– line and weren’t able to kinda just engage

72
00:02:31.800 –> 00:02:34.120
– in virtual behavior. I don’t see a difference

73
00:02:34.120 –> 00:02:36.599
– in the pathology that causes the behavior, and

74
00:02:36.599 –> 00:02:38.219
– I also see don’t see a difference

75
00:02:38.555 –> 00:02:40.895
– in the trade partner’s reaction. In fact,

76
00:02:41.194 –> 00:02:43.034
– my first divorce that I saw in my

77
00:02:43.034 –> 00:02:45.514
– group was a guy who viewed, get this,

78
00:02:45.514 –> 00:02:46.014
– pornography

79
00:02:46.314 –> 00:02:49.294
– six times and masturbated one of those times.

80
00:02:49.514 –> 00:02:51.354
– And that was actually the woman that asked

81
00:02:51.354 –> 00:02:53.250
– for the divorce. So my point is, I

82
00:02:53.330 –> 00:02:55.090
– I think this is a wonderful conversation because

83
00:02:55.090 –> 00:02:56.370
– I think I think we should not have

84
00:02:56.370 –> 00:02:57.030
– a hierarchy

85
00:02:57.490 –> 00:02:59.729
– of good, bad, better, or worse. You know,

86
00:02:59.729 –> 00:03:01.889
– we should just have behaviors and call them

87
00:03:01.889 –> 00:03:03.810
– what they are. Before we dive in, what’s

88
00:03:03.810 –> 00:03:05.409
– your take on that? Yeah. I think it’s

89
00:03:05.409 –> 00:03:07.669
– interesting. Right? Because I think you can conceptualize

90
00:03:07.889 –> 00:03:09.030
– it as digital infidelity.

91
00:03:09.545 –> 00:03:11.545
– Right? So whether I’m crossing the flesh line

92
00:03:11.545 –> 00:03:13.545
– or not, I think it’s also tough in

93
00:03:13.545 –> 00:03:16.185
– our culture. Right? Because, you know, there’s there’s

94
00:03:16.185 –> 00:03:18.665
– a restaurant called Hooters. There’s a restaurant called

95
00:03:18.665 –> 00:03:21.325
– Twin Peaks. Right? There’s no restaurant called Twigganberries.

96
00:03:21.770 –> 00:03:24.090
– Right? Like, we’re inundated with this idea, right,

97
00:03:24.090 –> 00:03:25.210
– of, like, what it looks like. I mean,

98
00:03:25.210 –> 00:03:26.490
– I have a daughter. Right? I’ve got three

99
00:03:26.490 –> 00:03:27.770
– boys and a daughter. You know, they fall

100
00:03:27.770 –> 00:03:29.530
– down. I’m like, get up. She falls down.

101
00:03:29.530 –> 00:03:30.729
– I’m like, oh my god, baby. Are you

102
00:03:30.729 –> 00:03:33.770
– alright? It’s just different. She’s inundated with this

103
00:03:33.770 –> 00:03:36.090
– is what perfection looks like in comparison and

104
00:03:36.090 –> 00:03:36.590
– perfection.

105
00:03:36.995 –> 00:03:38.995
– And so it’s a I think that’s really

106
00:03:38.995 –> 00:03:41.155
– hard for for women and for spouses. You

107
00:03:41.155 –> 00:03:43.394
– know, it’s I’m being chosen over. Right? You’re

108
00:03:43.394 –> 00:03:45.474
– picking this over me. But, you know, at

109
00:03:45.474 –> 00:03:46.854
– the end of the day, it’s an intimacy

110
00:03:46.995 –> 00:03:47.974
– disorder. So,

111
00:03:48.594 –> 00:03:50.639
– you know, whether it’s I’m crossing a flesh

112
00:03:50.639 –> 00:03:52.819
– line or it’s I’m I’m viewing it online

113
00:03:53.359 –> 00:03:55.120
– to go, well, it’s just this. I mean,

114
00:03:55.120 –> 00:03:56.099
– that’s what makes

115
00:03:56.479 –> 00:03:58.239
– sex addiction different. Right? Like, no one goes

116
00:03:58.239 –> 00:03:59.840
– to an AA meeting because, well, I just

117
00:03:59.840 –> 00:04:01.359
– drank light beer. The guy’s like, well, I

118
00:04:01.359 –> 00:04:02.959
– drink wild turkey, and so you’re in the

119
00:04:02.959 –> 00:04:05.474
– wrong meeting. Right. Right. Exactly. It it is

120
00:04:05.474 –> 00:04:06.914
– strange because guys will go to meetings and

121
00:04:06.914 –> 00:04:08.435
– go, I went to a meeting. I must

122
00:04:08.435 –> 00:04:10.275
– be in the wrong meeting. Right. And to

123
00:04:10.275 –> 00:04:11.875
– your point, what I hear you saying is

124
00:04:11.875 –> 00:04:14.275
– what I say. Just because something’s normal doesn’t

125
00:04:14.275 –> 00:04:16.115
– mean it should be. Right? And we can

126
00:04:16.115 –> 00:04:18.779
– all agree, poor and and no offense to

127
00:04:18.779 –> 00:04:20.699
– any betrayed partners listening to this, but we

128
00:04:20.699 –> 00:04:22.139
– can all agree as a guy, I mean,

129
00:04:22.139 –> 00:04:24.139
– porn has become normalized. I mean, when you

130
00:04:24.139 –> 00:04:26.139
– go into religious groups, a lot of men’s

131
00:04:26.139 –> 00:04:28.160
– groups and churches, they’ll do an anonymous,

132
00:04:28.460 –> 00:04:29.980
– you know, pass around a box and they

133
00:04:29.980 –> 00:04:31.735
– say, you know, yes or no. Yes, if

134
00:04:31.735 –> 00:04:33.574
– you’ve viewed pornography in the last month. No,

135
00:04:33.574 –> 00:04:35.574
– if you haven’t. And it’s and it’s shocking.

136
00:04:35.574 –> 00:04:37.495
– It’s like a 98%. I mean, it’s a

137
00:04:37.495 –> 00:04:39.894
– really big issue. Right? One in four Google

138
00:04:39.894 –> 00:04:42.074
– searches are for something pornographic,

139
00:04:42.854 –> 00:04:45.939
– explicit material, etcetera, etcetera. There’s the stats are

140
00:04:45.939 –> 00:04:48.920
– shocking. The average IP address that visits Pornhub

141
00:04:48.980 –> 00:04:52.100
– is visits twice per day for two sessions

142
00:04:52.100 –> 00:04:54.180
– lasting longer than twenty minutes. So this the

143
00:04:54.180 –> 00:04:55.995
– stats, when you look at them, it really

144
00:04:55.995 –> 00:04:58.395
– shows you this is being done. I’ve actually

145
00:04:58.395 –> 00:04:59.514
– even heard I don’t know if you’ve heard

146
00:04:59.514 –> 00:05:01.855
– this, Chris, that some of the pornography companies

147
00:05:02.395 –> 00:05:05.194
– on the view counter, every view counts as

148
00:05:05.194 –> 00:05:07.275
– more views. And the whole reason that they

149
00:05:07.275 –> 00:05:09.899
– do this is to give the guy the

150
00:05:09.899 –> 00:05:12.300
– impression that, oh, 250,000

151
00:05:12.300 –> 00:05:13.819
– people have viewed this video, and it was

152
00:05:13.819 –> 00:05:15.740
– just posted two days ago. Yeah. Again, get

153
00:05:15.740 –> 00:05:17.839
– to reduce the shame. So my point is,

154
00:05:17.899 –> 00:05:19.680
– it was a lot of sociocultural

155
00:05:20.060 –> 00:05:22.000
– and I would say systemic

156
00:05:22.634 –> 00:05:24.714
– pressures that make this normal. But, again, just

157
00:05:24.714 –> 00:05:27.035
– because something’s normal, should we do it? Right?

158
00:05:27.035 –> 00:05:28.074
– And we don’t see a lot of it.

159
00:05:28.074 –> 00:05:29.914
– I’m trying can you think of another example,

160
00:05:29.914 –> 00:05:32.235
– Chris, of something that we do? I mean,

161
00:05:32.235 –> 00:05:34.474
– besides eating sugar and candy. I mean, what

162
00:05:34.474 –> 00:05:36.555
– is something that we do besides sugar and

163
00:05:36.555 –> 00:05:37.534
– candy and porn

164
00:05:37.839 –> 00:05:40.579
– that we just, like, let happen and don’t

165
00:05:40.720 –> 00:05:42.720
– really Yeah. Well, I think I think sugar

166
00:05:42.720 –> 00:05:44.399
– is close. I think it’s like fast food.

167
00:05:44.399 –> 00:05:46.240
– Right? So, I mean, if you brought if

168
00:05:46.240 –> 00:05:47.680
– you’re at a barbecue and someone makes some

169
00:05:47.680 –> 00:05:49.199
– really great burgers, right, and then you brought

170
00:05:49.199 –> 00:05:51.039
– out a plate of McDonald’s burgers unwrapped on

171
00:05:51.039 –> 00:05:52.394
– a plate, you’d be like, what is this?

172
00:05:52.555 –> 00:05:54.074
– So fast food. Sure. If I’m on a

173
00:05:54.074 –> 00:05:55.354
– road trip and I go, man, I want

174
00:05:55.354 –> 00:05:56.794
– that the sugar and the fat and the

175
00:05:56.794 –> 00:05:58.474
– salt. Right? But if I’m eating it every

176
00:05:58.474 –> 00:05:59.914
– day, the guy proved it in the Super

177
00:05:59.914 –> 00:06:01.595
– Size Me movie. Like, that’s not good for

178
00:06:01.595 –> 00:06:04.074
– you. Right? So Correct. So it’s fast food.

179
00:06:04.074 –> 00:06:07.319
– It’s not real. It’s full connection. So it’s

180
00:06:07.319 –> 00:06:10.040
– it’s it’s training your brain to see people

181
00:06:10.040 –> 00:06:12.379
– as objects and not people as people. Correct.

182
00:06:12.439 –> 00:06:14.120
– We can minimize it all day long and

183
00:06:14.120 –> 00:06:15.879
– go, well, we shouldn’t be doing this or

184
00:06:15.879 –> 00:06:17.399
– or I can’t do this and it’s no

185
00:06:17.399 –> 00:06:19.464
– big deal because I haven’t done this. You

186
00:06:19.464 –> 00:06:20.664
– know, the challenge I have with a lot

187
00:06:20.664 –> 00:06:21.944
– of guys I work with is I go,

188
00:06:21.944 –> 00:06:24.264
– okay. Well, let’s do an experiment. How about

189
00:06:24.264 –> 00:06:25.485
– just try to not?

190
00:06:26.504 –> 00:06:28.104
– Well, I can stop whenever I want. Well,

191
00:06:28.104 –> 00:06:30.104
– sure. Like, stopping anything in addiction, I go,

192
00:06:30.104 –> 00:06:32.024
– look, stopping drinking is a piece of cake.

193
00:06:32.024 –> 00:06:34.024
– Stopping looking porn is easy. Staying stopped is

194
00:06:34.024 –> 00:06:36.120
– a lot harder. Right? So can you actually

195
00:06:36.120 –> 00:06:37.579
– run the experiment on yourself

196
00:06:38.039 –> 00:06:39.899
– and stop it? And then if you can’t,

197
00:06:40.199 –> 00:06:42.360
– then why are you going there? Right? Like,

198
00:06:42.360 –> 00:06:44.779
– well, it’s easier. Right? No one’s watching pornography

199
00:06:44.839 –> 00:06:46.839
– whether it’s like, hey. Did you unload the

200
00:06:46.839 –> 00:06:49.375
– dishwasher? And did you do the laundry? And

201
00:06:49.375 –> 00:06:51.214
– did you take the kids to school? It’s

202
00:06:51.214 –> 00:06:53.375
– a fantasy, and it’s a checking out, and

203
00:06:53.375 –> 00:06:55.855
– it’s a numbing. Right? So I’m going there

204
00:06:55.855 –> 00:06:58.175
– because it’s just easier. It’s an easier thing.

205
00:06:58.175 –> 00:07:00.654
– It’s transactional. I can just go, and that’s

206
00:07:00.654 –> 00:07:02.919
– it. Let’s start there because I think the

207
00:07:02.919 –> 00:07:04.300
– biggest hang up is

208
00:07:05.079 –> 00:07:07.079
– for a lot of guys when they go

209
00:07:07.079 –> 00:07:08.839
– to you know, when they first get discovered,

210
00:07:08.839 –> 00:07:10.779
– I think their first reaction is,

211
00:07:11.159 –> 00:07:13.079
– oh, every guy does this. Right? It’s it’s

212
00:07:13.079 –> 00:07:14.439
– it’s it’s the first thing out of every

213
00:07:14.439 –> 00:07:16.774
– guy every guy’s mouth. Right? She she hears

214
00:07:16.774 –> 00:07:18.295
– the, you know, you’ve been looking at this

215
00:07:18.295 –> 00:07:19.895
– twice a week or three times a week.

216
00:07:19.895 –> 00:07:21.415
– Right? She’s shocked. And then, you know, the

217
00:07:21.415 –> 00:07:24.055
– guy defends it with Mhmm. Every guy does.

218
00:07:24.055 –> 00:07:26.214
– Right? So regardless, I don’t even like to

219
00:07:26.214 –> 00:07:28.055
– get into that debate. I’ll tell you right

220
00:07:28.055 –> 00:07:29.355
– now just from personal experience.

221
00:07:29.870 –> 00:07:31.710
– I called a bunch of my buddies after

222
00:07:31.710 –> 00:07:33.470
– discovery and asked, hey. Do you guys still

223
00:07:33.470 –> 00:07:35.710
– watch porn and and how often? And, Chris,

224
00:07:35.710 –> 00:07:36.529
– I was shocked.

225
00:07:36.910 –> 00:07:38.990
– A lot of my buddies said, like, no.

226
00:07:38.990 –> 00:07:40.589
– I stopped, like, eight or nine years ago

227
00:07:40.589 –> 00:07:42.735
– after we hit or second. Right? And

228
00:07:43.194 –> 00:07:45.035
– so it was actually surprising to me how

229
00:07:45.035 –> 00:07:47.355
– many men actually had stopped at the end.

230
00:07:47.355 –> 00:07:49.035
– I just wanna also say these are not

231
00:07:49.115 –> 00:07:51.935
– I don’t have a particular real religious affiliation.

232
00:07:52.235 –> 00:07:53.535
– And the guys I was calling,

233
00:07:53.835 –> 00:07:54.495
– I called

234
00:07:54.959 –> 00:07:57.040
– specifically because I knew they didn’t have a

235
00:07:57.040 –> 00:07:58.879
– a religious affiliation. Because I wanted to get

236
00:07:58.879 –> 00:08:01.439
– a genuine response of Sure. If you did

237
00:08:01.439 –> 00:08:02.180
– had no

238
00:08:02.480 –> 00:08:04.339
– external reason to stop,

239
00:08:04.720 –> 00:08:06.720
– are you still watching it? And so, again,

240
00:08:06.720 –> 00:08:08.160
– we don’t need to keep getting into into

241
00:08:08.160 –> 00:08:09.680
– that. I just wanted the guys listening to

242
00:08:09.680 –> 00:08:12.095
– know, I know in our heads, we like

243
00:08:12.095 –> 00:08:14.735
– the story that everyone’s doing it. And, yes,

244
00:08:14.735 –> 00:08:16.735
– maybe in middle school, they were. But I

245
00:08:16.735 –> 00:08:18.334
– don’t know. I think you would be shocked.

246
00:08:18.334 –> 00:08:20.415
– There are a lot more men than you

247
00:08:20.415 –> 00:08:22.254
– think who actually don’t watch it on the

248
00:08:22.254 –> 00:08:24.680
– regular. And if they do, it’s, like, insanely

249
00:08:24.819 –> 00:08:27.139
– sparing and far from something that would look

250
00:08:27.139 –> 00:08:29.339
– addictive or compulsive. So just kind of a

251
00:08:29.379 –> 00:08:31.060
– as a I think a lot of guys

252
00:08:31.060 –> 00:08:33.379
– do wonder, is this normal? Is this not

253
00:08:33.379 –> 00:08:34.899
– normal? And I I again, I don’t know.

254
00:08:34.899 –> 00:08:36.659
– I have you seen any stats on if

255
00:08:36.659 –> 00:08:38.595
– we’ve actually measured that? Or I’d say it

256
00:08:38.595 –> 00:08:40.034
– like this. I think we have an idea

257
00:08:40.034 –> 00:08:41.475
– in our mind. You know, when I worked

258
00:08:41.475 –> 00:08:43.315
– at UCF, I worked in the alcohol and

259
00:08:43.315 –> 00:08:45.414
– other drugs. Right? Our conceptualization

260
00:08:45.794 –> 00:08:47.654
– of college is that everybody drinks.

261
00:08:48.434 –> 00:08:50.054
– Most college students don’t.

262
00:08:50.674 –> 00:08:52.929
– Most college students just don’t drink. Right? Like,

263
00:08:52.929 –> 00:08:54.850
– not that they even drink moderately. They just

264
00:08:54.850 –> 00:08:56.610
– don’t drink. Then we have, you know, things

265
00:08:56.610 –> 00:08:58.449
– like Animal House and these other movies, you

266
00:08:58.449 –> 00:09:00.129
– know, and old school and stuff that is

267
00:09:00.289 –> 00:09:02.370
– I know everyone gets hammered. I go, okay.

268
00:09:02.370 –> 00:09:04.610
– So your study of your close friends is

269
00:09:04.610 –> 00:09:06.345
– an n of eight. You know? Like, I

270
00:09:06.345 –> 00:09:08.184
– mean, if we’re doing a research study, like,

271
00:09:08.184 –> 00:09:11.144
– your pool is not huge. So then, of

272
00:09:11.144 –> 00:09:13.544
– course, everyone around you feels like everyone’s drinking.

273
00:09:13.544 –> 00:09:15.625
– It’s the same thing. Right. Everybody’s looking at

274
00:09:15.625 –> 00:09:17.085
– pornography. And I go, well,

275
00:09:17.465 –> 00:09:18.825
– yes and no. And there’s a lot of

276
00:09:18.825 –> 00:09:21.120
– people who just don’t partake. At the same

277
00:09:21.120 –> 00:09:22.879
– time, it’s never been more accessible. And I

278
00:09:22.879 –> 00:09:25.120
– think what’s coming down the pike and where

279
00:09:25.120 –> 00:09:26.899
– I think there’s more concern now

280
00:09:27.200 –> 00:09:28.579
– is things with AI

281
00:09:28.959 –> 00:09:32.000
– and with virtual reality. Mhmm. You know what

282
00:09:32.000 –> 00:09:33.620
– I mean? I’ve got guys on my caseload.

283
00:09:33.679 –> 00:09:35.054
– I mean, this is what’s tough. Right? You

284
00:09:35.054 –> 00:09:37.294
– get guys who are younger. They’ve known nothing

285
00:09:37.294 –> 00:09:40.014
– but lightning fast Internet. They’re virgins. And then

286
00:09:40.014 –> 00:09:41.054
– you’re going, oh, by the way, you’re a

287
00:09:41.054 –> 00:09:41.875
– sex addict?

288
00:09:42.254 –> 00:09:44.174
– Feels pretty unfair. Right? Hey. You’re a sex

289
00:09:44.174 –> 00:09:45.535
– addict. You never had sex, but you’re a

290
00:09:45.535 –> 00:09:47.455
– sex addict. But what it’s doing is it’s

291
00:09:47.455 –> 00:09:49.490
– making it impossible for those young men to

292
00:09:49.490 –> 00:09:50.529
– then go, well, how do I actually have

293
00:09:50.529 –> 00:09:51.110
– a conversation

294
00:09:51.649 –> 00:09:53.250
– with an actual person? What is the actual

295
00:09:53.250 –> 00:09:56.049
– relationship gonna look like? And, well, they’re doing

296
00:09:56.049 –> 00:09:57.570
– damage they don’t even know about. But it’s

297
00:09:57.649 –> 00:10:00.389
– Yes. It is just so much more accessible

298
00:10:00.610 –> 00:10:01.110
– now

299
00:10:01.415 –> 00:10:03.175
– than it was. I mean, it it’s not

300
00:10:03.175 –> 00:10:04.475
– like it’s been around forever.

301
00:10:05.095 –> 00:10:06.774
– Right? I mean, you can look back at,

302
00:10:06.774 –> 00:10:08.295
– like, ancient Greece and, oh, there’s, you know,

303
00:10:08.295 –> 00:10:10.075
– these things that we call, you know, pornography,

304
00:10:10.215 –> 00:10:12.054
– but I think it’s a little bit more

305
00:10:12.054 –> 00:10:14.054
– like, well, like boogie nights. Right? You go,

306
00:10:14.054 –> 00:10:15.735
– well, this is when the porn industry kinda

307
00:10:15.735 –> 00:10:17.919
– started, and you gotta be pretty intentional back

308
00:10:17.919 –> 00:10:19.539
– then to, like, go and buy a videotape

309
00:10:19.759 –> 00:10:21.279
– and, you know, make sure you rewind it

310
00:10:21.279 –> 00:10:23.200
– before you return it to the store. It’s

311
00:10:23.200 –> 00:10:26.279
– different now. Everyone’s got a phone. Right. Right.

312
00:10:26.399 –> 00:10:28.259
– Not looking past Internet. It’s everywhere

313
00:10:29.039 –> 00:10:31.184
– in that regard. And so I think it

314
00:10:31.184 –> 00:10:33.365
– is accessible, but it is a a rationalization

315
00:10:33.585 –> 00:10:35.205
– as well for men to go,

316
00:10:35.585 –> 00:10:38.065
– everyone’s looking at this at all times. Right.

317
00:10:38.065 –> 00:10:39.924
– Right. Well, what’s your sample?

318
00:10:40.785 –> 00:10:42.245
– Who so Let’s dive into

319
00:10:42.545 –> 00:10:44.179
– the I wanna start with this this because

320
00:10:44.179 –> 00:10:45.620
– I think this is why most guys are

321
00:10:45.620 –> 00:10:47.940
– gonna listen to this episode, which is what’s

322
00:10:47.940 –> 00:10:50.019
– wrong with it? What’s wrong with pornography? Why,

323
00:10:50.019 –> 00:10:52.500
– you know, outside of because, again, I think

324
00:10:52.500 –> 00:10:54.179
– a lot of men when I when I

325
00:10:54.179 –> 00:10:56.674
– see them, I think the reason they’re relapsing,

326
00:10:56.894 –> 00:10:59.855
– slipping, or they can’t stop watching it, and

327
00:10:59.855 –> 00:11:02.355
– their kind of rebuttal, I guess, is

328
00:11:02.735 –> 00:11:04.335
– it’s not a big deal, which would make

329
00:11:04.335 –> 00:11:06.335
– sense as to why they’re not actually stopping.

330
00:11:06.335 –> 00:11:08.254
– Because it is. You’ve probably seen this, Chris.

331
00:11:08.254 –> 00:11:09.235
– Guys will stop

332
00:11:09.600 –> 00:11:11.539
– all the other behaviors, but then the porn

333
00:11:11.600 –> 00:11:13.919
– won’t stop. Right? And I I I don’t

334
00:11:13.919 –> 00:11:15.519
– know this for a fact, but I suspect

335
00:11:15.519 –> 00:11:16.019
– sometimes,

336
00:11:16.399 –> 00:11:18.159
– how hard are they trying? If the other

337
00:11:18.159 –> 00:11:20.240
– one seem like cheating and this one doesn’t

338
00:11:20.240 –> 00:11:21.679
– seem like cheating, you do have to ask

339
00:11:21.679 –> 00:11:24.419
– yourself, am I putting forward the same effort

340
00:11:24.904 –> 00:11:25.565
– to stop

341
00:11:25.865 –> 00:11:27.705
– as I did with the other stuff that

342
00:11:27.705 –> 00:11:30.184
– I do agree is cheating. Right? So, you

343
00:11:30.184 –> 00:11:31.304
– know, and I and I don’t know how

344
00:11:31.304 –> 00:11:33.065
– many men this is, but here’s what I

345
00:11:33.065 –> 00:11:35.225
– would would say just on that. If it

346
00:11:35.225 –> 00:11:37.110
– has been an issue for you, I would

347
00:11:37.110 –> 00:11:40.149
– ask you to ask yourself, am I trying

348
00:11:40.149 –> 00:11:42.490
– to stop as hard as the other things?

349
00:11:42.549 –> 00:11:43.690
– Just watching pornography

350
00:11:44.230 –> 00:11:46.389
– feel as dangerous and as bad as the

351
00:11:46.389 –> 00:11:48.549
– other things. Because if it doesn’t, that’s probably

352
00:11:48.549 –> 00:11:50.070
– your answer right there. So that’s where I’d

353
00:11:50.070 –> 00:11:51.945
– love to start right now is let’s state

354
00:11:51.945 –> 00:11:54.665
– the case for why not. What’s wrong with

355
00:11:54.665 –> 00:11:57.004
– pornography? I’ll start first because mine are quick.

356
00:11:57.144 –> 00:11:58.585
– Listen, guys, I look at it in a

357
00:11:58.585 –> 00:12:01.485
– couple different ways. One, I look at things

358
00:12:01.545 –> 00:12:04.105
– in terms of how sustainable are they for

359
00:12:04.105 –> 00:12:06.370
– the species. I’m a big legacy guy. I’m

360
00:12:06.370 –> 00:12:07.889
– I’m not an idiot. I understand that my

361
00:12:07.889 –> 00:12:09.970
– life is gonna be eighty five years long.

362
00:12:09.970 –> 00:12:11.490
– Humans have been here for five

363
00:12:12.050 –> 00:12:13.110
– five hundred million

364
00:12:13.490 –> 00:12:15.590
– years that the species has walked the Earth.

365
00:12:15.649 –> 00:12:18.129
– My life is I’m one guy in a

366
00:12:18.129 –> 00:12:20.454
– really long stream here. But I will say

367
00:12:20.454 –> 00:12:22.534
– every single thing that humans do and make

368
00:12:22.534 –> 00:12:25.254
– normal affects the generation after us. So I

369
00:12:25.254 –> 00:12:26.554
– I think a lot about

370
00:12:27.014 –> 00:12:28.554
– the impact of my life

371
00:12:29.014 –> 00:12:32.429
– on my daughter’s world, on my daughter’s daughter’s

372
00:12:32.429 –> 00:12:34.269
– world. You know, I’m not ignorant enough to

373
00:12:34.269 –> 00:12:36.509
– know that the policies we pass and the

374
00:12:36.509 –> 00:12:38.429
– things we make normal aren’t gonna affect people.

375
00:12:38.429 –> 00:12:40.029
– So again, I know some people don’t think

376
00:12:40.029 –> 00:12:41.709
– about legacy. I think about it a lot.

377
00:12:41.709 –> 00:12:43.709
– I think Sure. I feel a tremendous amount

378
00:12:43.709 –> 00:12:45.709
– of responsibility to at least not make this

379
00:12:45.709 –> 00:12:47.774
– place worse. I’m not as do gooder where

380
00:12:47.774 –> 00:12:49.375
– I’m making it better per se, but I

381
00:12:49.375 –> 00:12:51.054
– but I certainly don’t wanna, in my day

382
00:12:51.054 –> 00:12:51.634
– to day,

383
00:12:52.095 –> 00:12:54.014
– screw this place up for the generation after.

384
00:12:54.014 –> 00:12:55.375
– Because I’m sure all of you right now

385
00:12:55.375 –> 00:12:56.995
– listening to this have seen

386
00:12:57.375 –> 00:13:00.149
– the side effects of the generation before us,

387
00:13:00.230 –> 00:13:02.550
– leaving us with some sort of massive burden.

388
00:13:02.550 –> 00:13:04.070
– Pornography, I think, would be one of those

389
00:13:04.070 –> 00:13:06.389
– things. You know, its invention happened during the

390
00:13:06.389 –> 00:13:07.990
– time before us, and I wish that they

391
00:13:07.990 –> 00:13:10.410
– would have done a better job of recognizing

392
00:13:10.470 –> 00:13:12.149
– it and keeping out of the hands of

393
00:13:12.149 –> 00:13:13.830
– kids because now look at where it’s a

394
00:13:13.830 –> 00:13:16.485
– complete disaster. Right? So sustainability is the thing

395
00:13:16.485 –> 00:13:17.924
– I look at. And, guys, it just doesn’t

396
00:13:17.924 –> 00:13:20.485
– look sustainable. I don’t believe that we can

397
00:13:20.485 –> 00:13:23.524
– consume copious amounts of pornography. Every male can

398
00:13:23.524 –> 00:13:24.985
– watch pornography and masturbate

399
00:13:25.605 –> 00:13:26.105
– repetitively

400
00:13:26.884 –> 00:13:30.245
– at reminding the brain that the female body

401
00:13:30.245 –> 00:13:33.029
– is this thing to lust after it. Because

402
00:13:33.029 –> 00:13:34.789
– that’s what you’re doing. Right? I mean, everybody

403
00:13:34.789 –> 00:13:36.870
– listening to this. We’re not stupid. So as

404
00:13:36.870 –> 00:13:38.629
– you’re intentionally living your life, we know that

405
00:13:38.629 –> 00:13:40.470
– the thing that we give our attention, right,

406
00:13:40.470 –> 00:13:43.049
– we feed those things, those things become more

407
00:13:43.334 –> 00:13:44.855
– important. Right? You know, money is a great

408
00:13:44.855 –> 00:13:47.414
– example. Everyone’s thinking about money, worrying about money,

409
00:13:47.414 –> 00:13:49.975
– and now it’s insanely important to everybody because

410
00:13:49.975 –> 00:13:51.595
– we’ve given it so much of our attention.

411
00:13:51.894 –> 00:13:54.314
– I can’t imagine that pornography and masturbation

412
00:13:54.615 –> 00:13:56.954
– are no different. I can’t imagine that giving

413
00:13:57.309 –> 00:13:59.389
– your undivided attention, because we know this because

414
00:13:59.389 –> 00:14:03.009
– the dopamine released, giving your intense undivided attention

415
00:14:03.070 –> 00:14:05.550
– to this over and over and over again.

416
00:14:05.550 –> 00:14:07.710
– And these images are not your wife. For

417
00:14:07.710 –> 00:14:09.389
– some people, they’re not the age of your

418
00:14:09.389 –> 00:14:11.595
– wife. They’re not doing things that you and

419
00:14:11.595 –> 00:14:13.914
– your wife would do. You can’t tell me

420
00:14:13.914 –> 00:14:15.134
– watching that regularly

421
00:14:15.834 –> 00:14:18.095
– is gonna be healthy. Again, we haven’t measured,

422
00:14:18.235 –> 00:14:19.914
– you know, some of that. We have measured

423
00:14:19.914 –> 00:14:21.834
– some things, but I just can’t imagine. Just

424
00:14:21.834 –> 00:14:23.434
– use your brain. That can’t be good. The

425
00:14:23.434 –> 00:14:25.329
– other thing that I think about is I

426
00:14:25.329 –> 00:14:26.929
– think about three things. I think, what’s this

427
00:14:26.929 –> 00:14:29.089
– doing to society? What’s this doing to women?

428
00:14:29.089 –> 00:14:30.850
– What’s this doing to men? So that’s my

429
00:14:30.850 –> 00:14:33.089
– society take. What’s this doing to women? The

430
00:14:33.089 –> 00:14:34.070
– women participating,

431
00:14:34.850 –> 00:14:37.110
– the way I see it, money’s not consent.

432
00:14:37.605 –> 00:14:39.445
– So if the only reason these women are

433
00:14:39.445 –> 00:14:42.184
– doing the things they’re doing is because they’re

434
00:14:42.245 –> 00:14:44.084
– getting money, I I don’t consider that to

435
00:14:44.084 –> 00:14:45.464
– consent. I consider it slavery.

436
00:14:45.845 –> 00:14:47.605
– I do. It’s not she’s not choosing to

437
00:14:47.605 –> 00:14:49.384
– do it. She’s doing it because of compensation.

438
00:14:49.445 –> 00:14:51.764
– Now, again, some guys always have some nonsense

439
00:14:51.764 –> 00:14:53.959
– to say about that. Well, it’s their choice.

440
00:14:54.179 –> 00:14:55.399
– They chose the job.

441
00:14:56.019 –> 00:14:57.779
– I don’t know. That’s a little offensive when

442
00:14:57.779 –> 00:14:59.139
– I hear that. I know a lot of

443
00:14:59.139 –> 00:15:01.059
– guys who have jobs that are really, really

444
00:15:01.059 –> 00:15:03.620
– hard that they hate in the executive and

445
00:15:03.620 –> 00:15:06.295
– and it’s not necessarily a choice. It’s I

446
00:15:06.295 –> 00:15:07.575
– want to make this kind of money. I

447
00:15:07.575 –> 00:15:09.894
– wanna climb the ladder in the c suites

448
00:15:09.894 –> 00:15:11.035
– within corporations.

449
00:15:11.575 –> 00:15:13.175
– And now I’m doing this job I hate

450
00:15:13.175 –> 00:15:14.774
– so that I can maybe get get a

451
00:15:14.774 –> 00:15:17.095
– job I love. Is that consent? We’re going

452
00:15:17.095 –> 00:15:19.149
– to handcuffs. Well, yeah. For real. And then

453
00:15:19.269 –> 00:15:21.110
– so then there’s another argument there and you

454
00:15:21.110 –> 00:15:22.950
– brought it up already, Chris. It’s guys will

455
00:15:22.950 –> 00:15:25.429
– say, well, Roland, what about AI? These women

456
00:15:25.429 –> 00:15:27.909
– aren’t real. I say, oh my gosh. That

457
00:15:27.909 –> 00:15:29.990
– which transitions me into the into my third

458
00:15:29.990 –> 00:15:32.325
– point about men. I say, listen. If no

459
00:15:32.325 –> 00:15:34.404
– one’s getting hurt by it, then there is

460
00:15:34.404 –> 00:15:36.085
– only one person being hurt by it, and

461
00:15:36.085 –> 00:15:37.684
– it’s you. You can’t tell me you want

462
00:15:37.684 –> 00:15:38.504
– your son

463
00:15:38.965 –> 00:15:41.845
– watching fake women who he knows are fake

464
00:15:42.085 –> 00:15:45.125
– Right. And enjoying these fantasies with with humans

465
00:15:45.125 –> 00:15:46.184
– who’ve never existed.

466
00:15:46.559 –> 00:15:48.000
– That one’s the one that creeps me out

467
00:15:48.000 –> 00:15:49.440
– the most, and we don’t have any data

468
00:15:49.440 –> 00:15:50.100
– to show

469
00:15:50.480 –> 00:15:52.100
– what if for eighty years,

470
00:15:52.480 –> 00:15:56.559
– men are enjoying sexual interactions with fake people

471
00:15:56.799 –> 00:15:59.059
– Yes. Fake things. And some of this stuff

472
00:15:59.475 –> 00:15:59.975
– is,

473
00:16:00.914 –> 00:16:02.834
– I mean, it’s very elaborate. And so if

474
00:16:02.834 –> 00:16:05.714
– you’re indulging in that and that’s your preferred

475
00:16:05.954 –> 00:16:07.634
– you know, my fear is when these kids

476
00:16:07.634 –> 00:16:09.794
– are actually 23 years old, are they gonna

477
00:16:09.794 –> 00:16:11.794
– prefer the fake thing over the real thing?

478
00:16:11.794 –> 00:16:13.220
– I don’t You know, we’ll see how the

479
00:16:13.220 –> 00:16:14.740
– future goes. But those are the three things

480
00:16:14.740 –> 00:16:16.500
– I think about. It’s not sustainable when it

481
00:16:16.500 –> 00:16:17.559
– comes to our society.

482
00:16:17.940 –> 00:16:19.860
– To me, what it’s doing to women and

483
00:16:19.860 –> 00:16:21.539
– the message that says to women, I can’t

484
00:16:21.539 –> 00:16:23.860
– fathom why we’ve been okay with that going

485
00:16:23.860 –> 00:16:25.379
– on as long as we have. Even non

486
00:16:25.379 –> 00:16:25.879
– pornography,

487
00:16:26.214 –> 00:16:28.455
– just using the female body to sell things.

488
00:16:28.455 –> 00:16:30.214
– I just I I think it’s naive to

489
00:16:30.214 –> 00:16:31.514
– think that that’s not affecting

490
00:16:31.975 –> 00:16:34.294
– the male lust and male entitlement over such

491
00:16:34.294 –> 00:16:36.455
– things. And then guys, I don’t think we

492
00:16:36.455 –> 00:16:38.214
– take seriously what this is doing to our

493
00:16:38.214 –> 00:16:40.160
– brains. Is this making it harder for me

494
00:16:40.160 –> 00:16:42.879
– to enjoy life from doing something so stimulating

495
00:16:42.879 –> 00:16:45.360
– regularly? Right? Is this is this making me

496
00:16:45.360 –> 00:16:47.519
– harder to be happy with regular life? Is

497
00:16:47.519 –> 00:16:49.679
– this affecting how I view women? Is this

498
00:16:49.679 –> 00:16:52.080
– affecting how I’ve you know, I often wonder,

499
00:16:52.080 –> 00:16:54.105
– you know, if, you know, these guys, their

500
00:16:54.105 –> 00:16:56.425
– their daughters will become teenaged and their friends

501
00:16:56.425 –> 00:16:58.745
– will start becoming attractive. You know, to me,

502
00:16:58.745 –> 00:17:00.825
– back in the day, that boundary was really

503
00:17:00.825 –> 00:17:03.225
– well drawn, you know, fifteen years ago. I

504
00:17:03.225 –> 00:17:05.404
– would say now guys have become so sexed.

505
00:17:05.859 –> 00:17:08.039
– Do we even have the discipline to

506
00:17:08.339 –> 00:17:10.579
– keep our attention to ourselves? Because we’re just

507
00:17:10.579 –> 00:17:12.419
– so used to just giving it everywhere we

508
00:17:12.419 –> 00:17:13.539
– go. So I don’t know. These are the

509
00:17:13.539 –> 00:17:15.220
– things I think about it. Just I mean,

510
00:17:15.220 –> 00:17:16.839
– Chris, I can’t think of one

511
00:17:17.299 –> 00:17:20.275
– support for pornography. I truly cannot. I mean,

512
00:17:20.275 –> 00:17:21.795
– I understand that guys are like, oh, what

513
00:17:21.795 –> 00:17:22.775
– if I’m single?

514
00:17:23.154 –> 00:17:25.875
– And I still can’t imagine that that’s doing

515
00:17:25.875 –> 00:17:26.755
– you any favors.

516
00:17:27.195 –> 00:17:29.475
– I don’t take. I just I don’t think

517
00:17:29.475 –> 00:17:32.134
– it’s a practice that we should be doing

518
00:17:32.195 –> 00:17:34.869
– and certainly not without caution. Put it that

519
00:17:34.869 –> 00:17:37.029
– way. Yeah. I agree with everything you just

520
00:17:37.029 –> 00:17:38.710
– said. Right? I agree with all of those.

521
00:17:38.710 –> 00:17:40.789
– I think as a CSAT, right, you know,

522
00:17:40.789 –> 00:17:42.409
– we’re trained and, you know, we don’t overpathologize

523
00:17:42.710 –> 00:17:44.470
– any kind of sexual behavior. Right? If two,

524
00:17:44.470 –> 00:17:46.630
– consenting adults wanna watch pornography together or make

525
00:17:46.630 –> 00:17:48.914
– pornography together, you know, all good. You won’t

526
00:17:48.914 –> 00:17:50.595
– be shocked by this. I’ve never knocked on

527
00:17:50.595 –> 00:17:52.674
– anybody’s door and gone, hey. I need to

528
00:17:52.674 –> 00:17:54.835
– see your browsing history. Right? Like, I’m not

529
00:17:54.995 –> 00:17:56.995
– like, that’s people are reaching out to me

530
00:17:56.995 –> 00:17:59.394
– because their relationship is falling apart. So when

531
00:17:59.394 –> 00:18:01.279
– I look at that, I go I think

532
00:18:01.279 –> 00:18:03.440
– there’s a piece here where it it is

533
00:18:03.440 –> 00:18:05.919
– a bit intellectually dishonest, right, to go it’s

534
00:18:05.919 –> 00:18:07.940
– not causing harm. Right? That it isn’t

535
00:18:08.319 –> 00:18:11.919
– inherently violent. Right? We’re consuming human bodies. Right?

536
00:18:11.919 –> 00:18:13.759
– So I’m not making a moral argument. I’m

537
00:18:13.759 –> 00:18:15.839
– just going, you know, is that the thing

538
00:18:15.839 –> 00:18:17.414
– we should be doing? I I have guys

539
00:18:17.414 –> 00:18:18.615
– all the time, and I go I I

540
00:18:18.615 –> 00:18:20.295
– focus a lot. You talk about legacy. I

541
00:18:20.295 –> 00:18:22.055
– talk a lot about purpose. Like, what’s your

542
00:18:22.055 –> 00:18:23.815
– purpose? What’s the point of view? I don’t

543
00:18:23.815 –> 00:18:25.335
– think anyone’s point was like, hey. What does

544
00:18:25.335 –> 00:18:26.295
– he do? He’s like, well, he looks at

545
00:18:26.295 –> 00:18:28.215
– porn all day. Like, you were made to

546
00:18:28.215 –> 00:18:30.400
– just look at porn all day. I don’t

547
00:18:30.400 –> 00:18:32.079
– buy it. I don’t believe it. And I

548
00:18:32.079 –> 00:18:33.680
– also think it’s it’s tough because I don’t

549
00:18:33.680 –> 00:18:35.359
– think people go, hey. Come on over. What

550
00:18:35.359 –> 00:18:36.720
– are we doing? Well, we’re gonna watch porn

551
00:18:36.720 –> 00:18:39.519
– together. Like, I’ve gotta just DVR porn. Like,

552
00:18:39.519 –> 00:18:40.180
– we’re gonna

553
00:18:40.640 –> 00:18:42.839
– come over and do it. That doesn’t happen

554
00:18:42.839 –> 00:18:44.414
– either. Oh, I I always say when you

555
00:18:44.414 –> 00:18:46.255
– come over to somebody’s house, it’s not out

556
00:18:46.255 –> 00:18:47.554
– on the kitchen table.

557
00:18:47.855 –> 00:18:50.014
– Right? You know? So to me, doesn’t that

558
00:18:50.014 –> 00:18:51.615
– tell you a little something about what you’re

559
00:18:51.615 –> 00:18:53.375
– doing? The fact that you’re hiding it from

560
00:18:53.375 –> 00:18:54.894
– your best friends and it’s not and it’s

561
00:18:54.894 –> 00:18:57.039
– nowhere to be seen in the home? Yeah.

562
00:18:57.099 –> 00:18:58.619
– If I’m at, you know, career day at

563
00:18:58.619 –> 00:19:00.619
– a high school, it’s not doctor, lawyer, porn

564
00:19:00.619 –> 00:19:02.299
– star. Right? Like, so why don’t we have

565
00:19:02.299 –> 00:19:03.500
– booths for it? Why don’t we have a

566
00:19:03.500 –> 00:19:05.819
– major for it at a major university? Because

567
00:19:05.819 –> 00:19:07.259
– there’s a part of it that I think

568
00:19:07.259 –> 00:19:09.339
– we all know, yeah, we probably shouldn’t be

569
00:19:09.339 –> 00:19:11.964
– doing this. And the individuals in it, did

570
00:19:11.964 –> 00:19:14.285
– they choose it? I really truly believe if

571
00:19:14.285 –> 00:19:15.424
– we knew the stories,

572
00:19:15.884 –> 00:19:18.045
– like, actually knew the stories of the people,

573
00:19:18.045 –> 00:19:20.065
– we would never click on the image.

574
00:19:20.365 –> 00:19:21.805
– I’ve never had a guy where I’m gone.

575
00:19:21.805 –> 00:19:24.125
– Hey. So would you like your your sister,

576
00:19:24.125 –> 00:19:26.500
– your mom, your wife, your daughter to be

577
00:19:26.500 –> 00:19:28.019
– in porn? I’ve never had a guy have

578
00:19:28.019 –> 00:19:29.700
– to think about it. They just instantly go

579
00:19:29.700 –> 00:19:30.200
– no.

580
00:19:30.500 –> 00:19:31.720
– And I’m like, why is that?

581
00:19:32.099 –> 00:19:33.460
– Why is it just an instant no? You

582
00:19:33.460 –> 00:19:35.059
– didn’t, like, go study. They didn’t go, well,

583
00:19:35.059 –> 00:19:36.900
– you know, maybe they make good money. Yeah.

584
00:19:36.900 –> 00:19:38.599
– Maybe it’s a good career opportunity.

585
00:19:38.900 –> 00:19:40.579
– They go no. And I go, well, why?

586
00:19:40.579 –> 00:19:42.625
– Well, because you know them. So then that

587
00:19:42.625 –> 00:19:44.384
– brings us back to, well, it’s an intimacy

588
00:19:44.384 –> 00:19:47.265
– disorder. Right? So I am I’m living in

589
00:19:47.265 –> 00:19:49.825
– a way where I am objectifying human bodies,

590
00:19:49.825 –> 00:19:52.704
– consuming human bodies, and I’m training myself to

591
00:19:52.704 –> 00:19:54.305
– not see them as people, but to see

592
00:19:54.305 –> 00:19:56.470
– them as things for me to consume. And

593
00:19:56.470 –> 00:19:58.710
– that’s just gonna make you not a great

594
00:19:58.710 –> 00:20:01.110
– human over time. I’m not gonna see people

595
00:20:01.110 –> 00:20:03.509
– as people, and that’s a real problem. I

596
00:20:03.509 –> 00:20:05.830
– need to see people that they have rights

597
00:20:05.830 –> 00:20:08.484
– and, you know, humanity and autonomy. And, I

598
00:20:08.484 –> 00:20:09.845
– mean, if you wanna make more of a

599
00:20:09.845 –> 00:20:11.944
– kind of historical argument, every single

600
00:20:12.244 –> 00:20:14.804
– authoritarian regime that took people out, what they

601
00:20:14.804 –> 00:20:17.125
– first did was dehumanize people. This is just

602
00:20:17.125 –> 00:20:19.365
– another form of dehumanization. That’s really all it

603
00:20:19.365 –> 00:20:20.964
– is. And we go, well, it’s for my

604
00:20:20.964 –> 00:20:23.210
– pleasure. It doesn’t matter. We’re still dehumanizing.

605
00:20:23.750 –> 00:20:25.930
– You know, we had internment camps in California

606
00:20:26.549 –> 00:20:28.470
– of the Japanese. And the way we did

607
00:20:28.470 –> 00:20:30.650
– that was through the use of political cartoons.

608
00:20:30.869 –> 00:20:32.789
– Right? So even like Stalin and Hitler were

609
00:20:32.789 –> 00:20:34.730
– seen as, like, white and people,

610
00:20:35.125 –> 00:20:36.884
– the Japanese were not. They were made to

611
00:20:36.884 –> 00:20:39.625
– look like animals, right, in political cartoons. Mhmm.

612
00:20:39.924 –> 00:20:41.845
– And so we’ll use that. I go, that’s

613
00:20:41.845 –> 00:20:43.944
– a way of dehumanizing. If I can dehumanize

614
00:20:44.724 –> 00:20:46.325
– the person, well, now I can do whatever

615
00:20:46.325 –> 00:20:47.525
– I want to. I can kill them. I

616
00:20:47.525 –> 00:20:49.320
– can do whatever else. So I can objectify

617
00:20:49.619 –> 00:20:51.000
– in that way. And that’s

618
00:20:51.299 –> 00:20:53.960
– I think that’s a real problem for humanity.

619
00:20:54.420 –> 00:20:56.019
– Again, it’s a bit of a still a

620
00:20:56.019 –> 00:20:58.100
– moral argument. Like, should I be doing that?

621
00:20:58.100 –> 00:20:59.619
– Some people go, who cares? And I go,

622
00:20:59.619 –> 00:21:00.980
– well, you know, I just think it’s not

623
00:21:00.980 –> 00:21:02.664
– gonna make you a good person. Like, you

624
00:21:02.664 –> 00:21:04.265
– know, meaning, like, you’re not gonna function well

625
00:21:04.265 –> 00:21:06.345
– in society. So you’re having a hard time

626
00:21:06.345 –> 00:21:08.105
– seeing people That’s the example I bring up

627
00:21:08.105 –> 00:21:09.404
– is, you know, I have a daughter.

628
00:21:10.025 –> 00:21:12.765
– Would I want her teacher, who’s a man,

629
00:21:12.984 –> 00:21:14.045
– to be masturbating

630
00:21:14.680 –> 00:21:17.640
– to pornography every single day, does that make

631
00:21:17.640 –> 00:21:20.519
– me feel safe that my daughter’s in his

632
00:21:20.519 –> 00:21:21.019
– class?

633
00:21:21.480 –> 00:21:22.140
– It doesn’t.

634
00:21:22.440 –> 00:21:24.920
– Because, again, you know, and so I that’s

635
00:21:24.920 –> 00:21:26.440
– what I I like what you said there.

636
00:21:26.440 –> 00:21:28.460
– When we rehumanize the situation,

637
00:21:28.894 –> 00:21:30.494
– it all of a sudden makes us makes

638
00:21:30.494 –> 00:21:32.254
– us wonder. Right? Would you want your daughter

639
00:21:32.254 –> 00:21:34.014
– in porn doing porn? I mean, now I

640
00:21:34.014 –> 00:21:36.494
– mean, guys listening to this, here’s my big

641
00:21:36.494 –> 00:21:39.154
– fuel for not participating in this industry.

642
00:21:39.534 –> 00:21:41.934
– There’s a website called OnlyFans, which is essentially

643
00:21:41.934 –> 00:21:44.034
– a social media platform for

644
00:21:44.335 –> 00:21:46.470
– any woman over the age of 18 to

645
00:21:46.470 –> 00:21:48.869
– sell her body to other men. So here’s

646
00:21:48.869 –> 00:21:49.850
– what I say is,

647
00:21:50.390 –> 00:21:51.529
– I believe that

648
00:21:51.990 –> 00:21:54.650
– the objectification of women pornography is

649
00:21:55.350 –> 00:21:56.970
– feeding the appetite

650
00:21:57.595 –> 00:21:58.335
– that would

651
00:21:58.795 –> 00:22:00.634
– then create patrons who would go to that

652
00:22:00.634 –> 00:22:02.875
– website and now want to pay for something

653
00:22:02.875 –> 00:22:05.755
– more. Oh, you know, just viewing passive images

654
00:22:05.755 –> 00:22:07.914
– isn’t enough for a meeting anymore. I want

655
00:22:07.914 –> 00:22:10.475
– images from real people who I’m interacting with.

656
00:22:10.475 –> 00:22:11.455
– I wanna request

657
00:22:11.910 –> 00:22:13.910
– specific images, and I’m going to pay for

658
00:22:13.910 –> 00:22:15.529
– those. Right? It’s the escalation.

659
00:22:16.070 –> 00:22:18.570
– So another one I made my arguments is,

660
00:22:18.869 –> 00:22:21.350
– do I wanna create a world where young

661
00:22:21.350 –> 00:22:23.830
– women, 18 year old girls girls. I’m gonna

662
00:22:23.830 –> 00:22:25.769
– call them girls because at 18, they’re girls.

663
00:22:25.990 –> 00:22:27.210
– 18 year old girls

664
00:22:27.884 –> 00:22:29.724
– to go onto this platform so that they

665
00:22:29.724 –> 00:22:30.464
– can sell

666
00:22:30.924 –> 00:22:33.805
– parts of their body to men. That’s where

667
00:22:33.805 –> 00:22:35.964
– this is headed. We all know that’s more

668
00:22:35.964 –> 00:22:38.365
– stimulating than this. We’re seeing it happen. Guys,

669
00:22:38.365 –> 00:22:39.404
– if you wanna I don’t I don’t have

670
00:22:39.404 –> 00:22:40.845
– the stats in front of me. Just just

671
00:22:40.845 –> 00:22:42.450
– go to chat g p t and ask

672
00:22:42.450 –> 00:22:45.409
– what are the viewership stats and monetary stats

673
00:22:45.409 –> 00:22:46.069
– of OnlyFans?

674
00:22:46.450 –> 00:22:47.190
– You will be

675
00:22:47.490 –> 00:22:49.889
– saddened by how many women are on that

676
00:22:49.889 –> 00:22:51.809
– platform and how much money is being exchanged

677
00:22:51.809 –> 00:22:53.490
– on that platform. Right? I I always bring

678
00:22:53.490 –> 00:22:55.169
– that up is, again, I think in our

679
00:22:55.169 –> 00:22:56.549
– little delusional world,

680
00:22:56.894 –> 00:22:59.615
– these porn stars aren’t real people. They like

681
00:22:59.615 –> 00:23:00.434
– doing porn.

682
00:23:00.894 –> 00:23:03.055
– And what’s the harm? They’re all off in

683
00:23:03.055 –> 00:23:05.375
– porn land filming porn. It’s not hurting hurting

684
00:23:05.375 –> 00:23:05.875
– anybody.

685
00:23:06.174 –> 00:23:08.494
– That’s naive because the thing that we don’t

686
00:23:08.494 –> 00:23:10.275
– know, Chris, is where is this headed?

687
00:23:10.589 –> 00:23:12.349
– I guarantee you, we all would have denied

688
00:23:12.349 –> 00:23:14.589
– that OnlyFans would have existed. We would have

689
00:23:14.589 –> 00:23:16.429
– thought that that would have been against some

690
00:23:16.429 –> 00:23:17.250
– sort of law.

691
00:23:17.630 –> 00:23:19.470
– Well, it’s not against the law, and that’s

692
00:23:19.470 –> 00:23:21.789
– why it’s being it’s why it’s being done.

693
00:23:21.789 –> 00:23:24.029
– And so, you know, to me, the further

694
00:23:24.029 –> 00:23:25.954
– the argument is rehumanizing

695
00:23:26.255 –> 00:23:28.815
– this can really help you understand that if

696
00:23:28.815 –> 00:23:29.714
– this scales

697
00:23:30.095 –> 00:23:32.095
– in areas that have not even come out

698
00:23:32.095 –> 00:23:35.075
– yet, these new new inventions, and there’s monetary

699
00:23:35.134 –> 00:23:37.775
– gain, and then we’ve trained men, we’ve trained

700
00:23:37.775 –> 00:23:40.509
– men to consume it. We’ve essentially created a

701
00:23:40.509 –> 00:23:42.750
– massive market for something that to me is

702
00:23:42.750 –> 00:23:43.570
– gonna destroy

703
00:23:44.109 –> 00:23:46.190
– just destroy it on women. It’s not something

704
00:23:46.190 –> 00:23:48.029
– I’m happy about. So, again, I appreciate you

705
00:23:48.029 –> 00:23:49.630
– bringing that example because I think about that

706
00:23:49.630 –> 00:23:51.470
– all the time. The reason we’re here is

707
00:23:51.470 –> 00:23:52.365
– because of the past.

708
00:23:52.765 –> 00:23:54.605
– Right? And so if if you guys are

709
00:23:54.605 –> 00:23:56.845
– disgusted by OnlyFans, I don’t know if we

710
00:23:56.845 –> 00:23:59.644
– would have launched it had men not been

711
00:23:59.644 –> 00:24:03.085
– fully consumed by pornographic images and pornographic film.

712
00:24:03.085 –> 00:24:05.664
– Yeah. By by the year 2000. I’m completely

713
00:24:05.724 –> 00:24:07.744
– saturated in it via Internet pornography.

714
00:24:08.190 –> 00:24:09.889
– That’s why we’re seeing the escalation of

715
00:24:10.909 –> 00:24:12.210
– all these alternatives.

716
00:24:12.589 –> 00:24:14.589
– Because, again, you know, once you’ve watched that

717
00:24:14.589 –> 00:24:16.210
– much porn for ten years,

718
00:24:16.509 –> 00:24:18.109
– we know this about the brain. It’s gonna

719
00:24:18.109 –> 00:24:20.369
– become curious what else is out there. And,

720
00:24:20.429 –> 00:24:22.509
– unfortunately, there’s a lot more out there, and

721
00:24:22.509 –> 00:24:24.174
– I don’t think that stuff’s I I think

722
00:24:24.174 –> 00:24:26.195
– every guy listening to this would agree, OnlyFans

723
00:24:26.255 –> 00:24:28.174
– is not harmless. And if you do agree

724
00:24:28.174 –> 00:24:29.234
– with that, I’m sorry.

725
00:24:29.934 –> 00:24:31.455
– But to me, I think, well, the second

726
00:24:31.455 –> 00:24:32.515
– you bring up OnlyFans

727
00:24:32.815 –> 00:24:34.494
– and not porn, now all of a sudden

728
00:24:34.494 –> 00:24:36.174
– guys start to say, oh, well, I’m not

729
00:24:36.174 –> 00:24:37.775
– okay with that. Hold on. Hold on. Hold

730
00:24:37.775 –> 00:24:39.714
– on. What’s different about those when

731
00:24:40.200 –> 00:24:42.919
– than the other ones? Yeah. That’s exactly right.

732
00:24:42.919 –> 00:24:44.839
– Yeah. You’re talking about then it’s a boundary

733
00:24:44.839 –> 00:24:47.400
– violator. Right? I mean, pornography is gonna push

734
00:24:47.400 –> 00:24:50.119
– that boundary. Right? Eventually, the novelty sensor goes,

735
00:24:50.119 –> 00:24:51.960
– yep. Now I need something more. Now I

736
00:24:51.960 –> 00:24:54.039
– wanna go and jump the shark here and

737
00:24:54.039 –> 00:24:55.825
– and do something different. And and then I’m

738
00:24:55.825 –> 00:24:58.625
– saying I’m complicit to that industry. Right? I

739
00:24:58.625 –> 00:24:59.985
– wanna believe that I’m not a part of

740
00:24:59.985 –> 00:25:01.904
– that. I’m looking at this kind of pornography.

741
00:25:01.904 –> 00:25:03.424
– I’m not looking at that kind of pornography.

742
00:25:03.424 –> 00:25:05.025
– And I go, okay. Well, one, maybe give

743
00:25:05.025 –> 00:25:06.705
– it a minute because you might eventually get

744
00:25:06.705 –> 00:25:09.765
– there, but you’re also rationalizing it and justifying

745
00:25:09.825 –> 00:25:12.319
– it, which is that’s addiction. So

746
00:25:12.619 –> 00:25:13.900
– I think the other piece is a big

747
00:25:13.900 –> 00:25:15.660
– part of recovery is learning how to be

748
00:25:15.660 –> 00:25:16.160
– assertive,

749
00:25:16.619 –> 00:25:18.240
– right, how to have healthy confrontation.

750
00:25:19.019 –> 00:25:22.220
– Ultimately, pornography is passive aggressive. Right? I’m being

751
00:25:22.220 –> 00:25:24.704
– passive, and then I’m just taking time. Yeah.

752
00:25:24.865 –> 00:25:25.744
– I joke all the time. I got a

753
00:25:25.744 –> 00:25:26.904
– buddy of mine who’s always like, he wants

754
00:25:26.904 –> 00:25:28.384
– to take me golfing, and I’m like, I

755
00:25:28.384 –> 00:25:30.144
– love my wife too much to golf. I

756
00:25:30.144 –> 00:25:32.224
– don’t have five hours to just go leave

757
00:25:32.224 –> 00:25:33.825
– my family. And from what I can tell,

758
00:25:33.825 –> 00:25:35.424
– you can still golf if you’re older and

759
00:25:35.424 –> 00:25:37.105
– out of shape. So I’ll wait till I

760
00:25:37.105 –> 00:25:38.789
– get there, and then I’ll start golf. But

761
00:25:38.789 –> 00:25:40.869
– that’s it’s a time waste. I mean, even

762
00:25:40.869 –> 00:25:43.289
– if it’s twenty minutes, an hour, whatever, I’m

763
00:25:43.350 –> 00:25:44.570
– I’m checking out,

764
00:25:44.950 –> 00:25:47.670
– and and that’s passive. That’s very passive. So

765
00:25:47.670 –> 00:25:50.070
– if I wanna be an individual who is

766
00:25:50.070 –> 00:25:50.570
– successful,

767
00:25:51.115 –> 00:25:53.274
– passivity isn’t part of that. Right? So I’m

768
00:25:53.274 –> 00:25:55.914
– being passive. And then the aggressive part is

769
00:25:55.914 –> 00:25:58.234
– I’m consuming human bodies, and I’m complicit to

770
00:25:58.234 –> 00:26:00.875
– this industry. Right? So I’m being aggressive. Well,

771
00:26:00.875 –> 00:26:02.554
– if the goal of recovery is to be

772
00:26:02.554 –> 00:26:05.019
– assertive, well, you’re not helping yourself in that

773
00:26:05.019 –> 00:26:07.420
– way. Right? You’re still acting. You’re still dancing

774
00:26:07.420 –> 00:26:09.119
– around in a passive and aggressive

775
00:26:09.660 –> 00:26:13.019
– area. So mentally, you know, be passive or

776
00:26:13.019 –> 00:26:15.500
– aggressive oftentimes. Right? I’m gonna I’m gonna punt

777
00:26:15.500 –> 00:26:17.954
– on my responsibilities, which is passivity. I’m I’m

778
00:26:17.954 –> 00:26:19.315
– not gonna step into the space that I’m

779
00:26:19.315 –> 00:26:21.075
– called to step into as a husband or

780
00:26:21.075 –> 00:26:22.835
– a father. So I’m gonna punt on those

781
00:26:22.835 –> 00:26:23.335
– responsibilities,

782
00:26:23.714 –> 00:26:24.214
– passivity,

783
00:26:24.515 –> 00:26:25.714
– or I’m gonna go my way or the

784
00:26:25.714 –> 00:26:27.234
– highway, and I’m gonna get really angry. Right?

785
00:26:27.234 –> 00:26:28.674
– So you’re gonna do the way I want

786
00:26:28.674 –> 00:26:30.674
– you to do it, and that’s aggressive. And

787
00:26:30.674 –> 00:26:32.294
– so if we’re supposed to be assertive,

788
00:26:32.890 –> 00:26:35.150
– there’s nothing assertive around pornography.

789
00:26:35.769 –> 00:26:37.369
– I wrote a note down here that I

790
00:26:37.369 –> 00:26:39.369
– wanna bring up because I’m curious if you’ve

791
00:26:39.369 –> 00:26:41.049
– looked into it. I haven’t looked into it

792
00:26:41.049 –> 00:26:43.289
– as much as I want to, but it’s

793
00:26:43.289 –> 00:26:46.650
– this concept of porn actually being different than

794
00:26:46.650 –> 00:26:49.244
– sex. So I didn’t really know this. What

795
00:26:49.244 –> 00:26:51.264
– what actually got me interested in this was

796
00:26:51.565 –> 00:26:53.884
– I had a number of clients that their

797
00:26:54.044 –> 00:26:56.125
– it wasn’t like d day, but one of

798
00:26:56.125 –> 00:26:57.884
– the things that kinda read up the, you

799
00:26:57.884 –> 00:27:00.684
– know, the red flags that then eventually led

800
00:27:00.684 –> 00:27:03.059
– to discovery day. A lot of guys get

801
00:27:03.059 –> 00:27:03.559
– caught

802
00:27:04.019 –> 00:27:04.519
– masturbating

803
00:27:04.900 –> 00:27:07.619
– after they’ve had sex with their wife, like,

804
00:27:07.619 –> 00:27:08.679
– very soon after.

805
00:27:09.059 –> 00:27:10.819
– It’s a red flag. The the wife doesn’t

806
00:27:10.819 –> 00:27:14.339
– put that together with, addiction yet. But what

807
00:27:14.339 –> 00:27:16.099
– happens when that happens is that any guy

808
00:27:16.099 –> 00:27:18.825
– who’s experienced that, it really bothers them. Because

809
00:27:18.825 –> 00:27:20.505
– they’re like, I I don’t get it. We

810
00:27:20.505 –> 00:27:23.144
– just had sex, like, twenty minutes ago, and

811
00:27:23.144 –> 00:27:24.525
– now you’re masturbating

812
00:27:24.904 –> 00:27:26.984
– to porn. Like, they they can’t and I’ve

813
00:27:26.984 –> 00:27:28.505
– had this happen a decent amount. And then

814
00:27:28.505 –> 00:27:30.265
– the guys who even haven’t gotten caught, that

815
00:27:30.265 –> 00:27:31.785
– a lot of guys have admitted, yeah, it’s

816
00:27:31.785 –> 00:27:34.279
– crazy. I’ll have sex, have an orgasm. And

817
00:27:34.279 –> 00:27:36.519
– the next thing you know, I still have

818
00:27:36.519 –> 00:27:38.440
– this craving to look at pornography. So I

819
00:27:38.440 –> 00:27:39.420
– looked into this,

820
00:27:39.799 –> 00:27:42.119
– and I was shocked. They’ve actually have studied

821
00:27:42.119 –> 00:27:44.200
– this. It lights up an entirely different portion

822
00:27:44.200 –> 00:27:47.180
– of the brain. It’s actually classified as voyeurism.

823
00:27:47.875 –> 00:27:50.434
– And so it’s not sexual. It’s actually a

824
00:27:50.434 –> 00:27:52.775
– totally different style of

825
00:27:53.234 –> 00:27:55.075
– so when they did this research, what they

826
00:27:55.075 –> 00:27:58.034
– basically found was to have a physical real

827
00:27:58.034 –> 00:28:00.434
– interaction with a real human being that you

828
00:28:00.434 –> 00:28:01.174
– care for,

829
00:28:01.650 –> 00:28:03.490
– the brain lit up in an entirely different

830
00:28:03.490 –> 00:28:05.330
– in an entirely different way. It was a

831
00:28:05.330 –> 00:28:07.730
– whole different experience. And then when they looked

832
00:28:07.730 –> 00:28:10.130
– at the guy’s brain who viewed pornography, like,

833
00:28:10.130 –> 00:28:12.849
– literally, almost a completely I mean, two almost

834
00:28:12.849 –> 00:28:14.230
– completely separate activities.

835
00:28:14.529 –> 00:28:16.470
– So I I bring this up only because

836
00:28:16.924 –> 00:28:19.164
– what you’re saying with it being passive, I

837
00:28:19.164 –> 00:28:20.304
– bring this up only

838
00:28:20.924 –> 00:28:22.304
– to have guys be

839
00:28:22.605 –> 00:28:24.605
– I think we love the story that it’s

840
00:28:24.605 –> 00:28:27.244
– sexual and it’s hot. Mhmm. And it’s so

841
00:28:27.244 –> 00:28:29.750
– much easier to be doing something hot. How

842
00:28:29.750 –> 00:28:30.490
– hot is voyeurism?

843
00:28:30.950 –> 00:28:33.190
– Look at the definition. Right? So basically, what

844
00:28:33.190 –> 00:28:34.549
– the study was saying was that when we

845
00:28:34.549 –> 00:28:35.450
– look at pornography,

846
00:28:35.830 –> 00:28:37.049
– your brain knows

847
00:28:37.430 –> 00:28:40.710
– that they don’t know that you’re watching. Yes.

848
00:28:40.710 –> 00:28:43.214
– So you know that they don’t know. So

849
00:28:43.214 –> 00:28:44.734
– this is the the creepy element of it.

850
00:28:44.734 –> 00:28:46.654
– So as I’ve looked into it, you can

851
00:28:46.654 –> 00:28:48.974
– actually develop a taste for that. So, basically,

852
00:28:48.974 –> 00:28:49.634
– you can

853
00:28:50.015 –> 00:28:53.054
– you can enjoy watching other people do something

854
00:28:53.054 –> 00:28:55.375
– sexual that don’t know you’re watching. And that

855
00:28:55.375 –> 00:28:57.615
– is by definition voyeurism. That’s what that is.

856
00:28:57.615 –> 00:29:00.589
– And so porn pornography, you know, pornography has

857
00:29:00.589 –> 00:29:01.569
– been classified

858
00:29:02.109 –> 00:29:03.789
– as that. At least in the study, they

859
00:29:03.789 –> 00:29:06.210
– categorized it as a as a holistic practice.

860
00:29:06.429 –> 00:29:08.769
– So, I just bring that up because again,

861
00:29:08.829 –> 00:29:10.589
– if we’re talking about the health of all

862
00:29:10.589 –> 00:29:11.169
– of this,

863
00:29:11.605 –> 00:29:14.164
– the reason that guys will, yeah, have actual

864
00:29:14.164 –> 00:29:15.845
– sex with their wife and then still have

865
00:29:15.845 –> 00:29:18.244
– this unmet need is they are actually too

866
00:29:18.244 –> 00:29:20.484
– unrelated. So the reason I bring this up

867
00:29:20.484 –> 00:29:22.345
– is, are you okay with having

868
00:29:22.964 –> 00:29:25.599
– a desire and a need for voyeurism? Do

869
00:29:25.599 –> 00:29:28.159
– you want to watch naked people who don’t

870
00:29:28.159 –> 00:29:30.960
– know you’re watching them? Because that is that

871
00:29:30.960 –> 00:29:32.639
– that is what you’re doing. And if you

872
00:29:32.639 –> 00:29:34.259
– do if any guy found himself,

873
00:29:34.639 –> 00:29:36.079
– you know, wife’s there. She’s ready to have

874
00:29:36.079 –> 00:29:37.934
– sex. She’s in the kitchen. She’s just screwing

875
00:29:37.934 –> 00:29:39.855
– around on her phone, sitting there. It’s about

876
00:29:39.934 –> 00:29:41.774
– and you sneak off and go watch porn.

877
00:29:41.774 –> 00:29:43.375
– There’s tons of guys who have done that.

878
00:29:43.375 –> 00:29:45.534
– She’s right there. She probably would be totally

879
00:29:45.534 –> 00:29:47.774
– down to have sex. At least ask. And

880
00:29:47.774 –> 00:29:49.615
– then she’s, you know, at least at least

881
00:29:49.615 –> 00:29:51.789
– give the opportunity, but they don’t. And I

882
00:29:51.789 –> 00:29:53.809
– think, guys, if they were honest, it’s because

883
00:29:53.950 –> 00:29:56.430
– their brain actually doesn’t want sex. The brain

884
00:29:56.430 –> 00:29:58.269
– wants to go spy on some other naked

885
00:29:58.269 –> 00:30:00.670
– people and have a little sexual moment with

886
00:30:00.670 –> 00:30:02.589
– himself. And so I like to bring that

887
00:30:02.589 –> 00:30:04.285
– one up because, a, I don’t know how

888
00:30:04.285 –> 00:30:06.045
– many guys actually stop to think if they

889
00:30:06.045 –> 00:30:08.545
– falling into that category. And if you do,

890
00:30:08.684 –> 00:30:10.525
– that was the thing that really turned me

891
00:30:10.525 –> 00:30:12.605
– off. I mean, I was like, I was

892
00:30:12.605 –> 00:30:13.965
– all cool and I was, you know, having

893
00:30:14.045 –> 00:30:15.404
– I was I was a man and I’m

894
00:30:15.404 –> 00:30:17.884
– lusting that for women and that’s my manly

895
00:30:17.884 –> 00:30:20.160
– story. The second that I really you know,

896
00:30:20.160 –> 00:30:21.599
– I read this article and it was like,

897
00:30:21.599 –> 00:30:23.200
– hey. You know, have you ever fell into

898
00:30:23.200 –> 00:30:24.740
– this category? And I’m like,

899
00:30:25.039 –> 00:30:26.799
– actually, yeah. I think so. And then it’s

900
00:30:26.799 –> 00:30:28.400
– like, oh, that’s what this is. And I’m

901
00:30:28.400 –> 00:30:29.940
– thinking, so wait. Now

902
00:30:30.400 –> 00:30:32.204
– I’m a I’m a voyeur. I like to

903
00:30:32.204 –> 00:30:34.125
– just spy on naked people. So anyways, yeah,

904
00:30:34.125 –> 00:30:35.585
– I just I I was gonna bring them.

905
00:30:35.805 –> 00:30:37.724
– Right. Because voyeur is always viewing. Right? So

906
00:30:37.724 –> 00:30:39.404
– I’m I’m viewing. And it is it’s very

907
00:30:39.404 –> 00:30:41.565
– passive. Right? So it’d be like, okay. If

908
00:30:41.565 –> 00:30:43.404
– we go kinda sex status and stuff and

909
00:30:43.404 –> 00:30:44.765
– guys go, man, I wanna be the man.

910
00:30:44.765 –> 00:30:46.125
– I wanna make the money and drive the

911
00:30:46.125 –> 00:30:48.099
– fast car. Show me the scene in James

912
00:30:48.099 –> 00:30:49.779
– Bond where he’s stopped and pulled over on

913
00:30:49.779 –> 00:30:51.240
– the side of the road and watched porn.

914
00:30:51.700 –> 00:30:53.079
– Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

915
00:30:53.380 –> 00:30:55.940
– But what right? It was just like, that’s

916
00:30:55.940 –> 00:30:58.660
– not you know, his passcode’s OO7. He logs

917
00:30:58.660 –> 00:31:00.579
– in and, you know, that’s not what’s happening.

918
00:31:00.579 –> 00:31:02.099
– I mean, he’s he was having sex with

919
00:31:02.099 –> 00:31:05.265
– women. Right. He wasn’t watching pornography. Right? I

920
00:31:05.265 –> 00:31:07.424
– wanna pause there though because Yeah. I would

921
00:31:07.424 –> 00:31:09.744
– say probably sixty percent of the guys in

922
00:31:09.744 –> 00:31:11.744
– my recovery groups actually do not have a

923
00:31:11.744 –> 00:31:13.904
– pornography issue. Wife tells them to stop watching

924
00:31:13.904 –> 00:31:16.144
– it. They stop watching it. No problem. Because

925
00:31:16.144 –> 00:31:18.309
– again, their primary and this is I wanna

926
00:31:18.309 –> 00:31:20.230
– speak to this because this is important. So

927
00:31:20.390 –> 00:31:23.349
– Mhmm. Because this is a process addiction, what

928
00:31:23.349 –> 00:31:25.349
– I always encourage all of the guys in

929
00:31:25.349 –> 00:31:27.670
– my groups to go behavior by behavior by

930
00:31:27.670 –> 00:31:28.170
– behavior

931
00:31:28.630 –> 00:31:30.009
– and analyze the behaviors.

932
00:31:30.394 –> 00:31:32.014
– Because if you guys look at your timeline,

933
00:31:32.394 –> 00:31:34.315
– you did not start all of this stuff.

934
00:31:34.315 –> 00:31:36.894
– You didn’t start screwing hookers when you were

935
00:31:36.954 –> 00:31:39.274
– 14, 12, or what you you know, these

936
00:31:39.274 –> 00:31:41.434
– things kinda came in phases. And the reason

937
00:31:41.434 –> 00:31:42.875
– I I love that you brought that up

938
00:31:42.875 –> 00:31:46.019
– is within sex addiction, being that a process

939
00:31:46.019 –> 00:31:47.859
– addiction, the reason I want I encourage all

940
00:31:47.859 –> 00:31:49.059
– men to look at this as a process

941
00:31:49.059 –> 00:31:52.519
– addiction is you might be getting something different

942
00:31:52.660 –> 00:31:54.740
– out of paid sex than you would be

943
00:31:54.740 –> 00:31:57.160
– getting after conquesting after women

944
00:31:57.539 –> 00:31:59.695
– at conferences or at bars, you know, and

945
00:31:59.695 –> 00:32:01.535
– flirting. Right? All that stuff might be a

946
00:32:01.535 –> 00:32:03.695
– totally different thing that you’re getting from it.

947
00:32:03.695 –> 00:32:05.855
– And then the porn could be a totally

948
00:32:05.855 –> 00:32:08.494
– different process. And then prostitution could be a

949
00:32:08.494 –> 00:32:11.455
– totally different process, an affair, an emotional affair.

950
00:32:11.455 –> 00:32:13.455
– I mean, you know, so guys, you kinda

951
00:32:13.455 –> 00:32:15.109
– have to I say this all the time,

952
00:32:15.109 –> 00:32:16.549
– that you kinda have to flip over every

953
00:32:16.549 –> 00:32:18.470
– stone and see what’s under there. Because I

954
00:32:18.470 –> 00:32:20.950
– know a lot of guys who flipped over

955
00:32:20.950 –> 00:32:22.630
– a good amount of them, but then they’re

956
00:32:22.630 –> 00:32:23.750
– not all of them. And next thing you

957
00:32:23.750 –> 00:32:25.750
– know, they have this massive relapse five years

958
00:32:25.750 –> 00:32:28.005
– later. It was because, you know, they attacked

959
00:32:28.005 –> 00:32:30.484
– the egregious behaviors, but what they didn’t attack

960
00:32:30.484 –> 00:32:30.984
– was

961
00:32:31.365 –> 00:32:34.904
– how much they enjoy conquesting after a woman

962
00:32:34.965 –> 00:32:37.205
– who’s this unsuspecting, oh, I wonder if I

963
00:32:37.205 –> 00:32:38.884
– could just use my charm and good looks

964
00:32:38.884 –> 00:32:40.325
– to sleep with herself. Again, we don’t need

965
00:32:40.325 –> 00:32:41.525
– to go down any of those rabbit holes,

966
00:32:41.525 –> 00:32:43.250
– but I do want to just propose to

967
00:32:43.250 –> 00:32:43.990
– all guys

968
00:32:44.369 –> 00:32:46.130
– when you’re going through all this, I know

969
00:32:46.130 –> 00:32:47.750
– this conversation was about pornography.

970
00:32:48.130 –> 00:32:50.369
– You can absolutely be have you could have

971
00:32:50.369 –> 00:32:51.970
– basically what I like to say, Chris, is

972
00:32:51.970 –> 00:32:54.929
– two completely different addictions. The pornography habit that

973
00:32:54.929 –> 00:32:57.414
– you started when you were 11 may have

974
00:32:57.414 –> 00:33:01.095
– nothing to do with this new conquesting activity

975
00:33:01.095 –> 00:33:02.875
– that you’re having now in your fifties.

976
00:33:03.174 –> 00:33:04.775
– I’ve seen this so many times. Right? The

977
00:33:04.775 –> 00:33:07.095
– guy lands the CEO role. He’s never cheated.

978
00:33:07.095 –> 00:33:09.015
– All of a sudden, he starts to leverage

979
00:33:09.015 –> 00:33:11.255
– his status in this way to kinda earn

980
00:33:11.255 –> 00:33:13.359
– that attention from women. Let’s go down that

981
00:33:13.359 –> 00:33:14.640
– tangent, but I do like to just plant

982
00:33:14.640 –> 00:33:15.859
– the seed in everybody’s brain.

983
00:33:16.240 –> 00:33:18.019
– Not all of our compulsive behavior

984
00:33:18.400 –> 00:33:20.559
– comes from the same pathway that would drive

985
00:33:20.559 –> 00:33:22.159
– one of them. You could have two separate

986
00:33:22.159 –> 00:33:22.659
– pieces.

987
00:33:23.279 –> 00:33:25.279
– Totally. Yeah. I think that’s where it’s important

988
00:33:25.279 –> 00:33:26.595
– to do if, you know, the guys have

989
00:33:26.595 –> 00:33:28.194
– done some of the assessments. Right? If you’re

990
00:33:28.194 –> 00:33:29.954
– working with a CSAT, you have these access

991
00:33:29.954 –> 00:33:32.035
– to these, like, the SDI, and you look

992
00:33:32.035 –> 00:33:34.115
– at under the umbrella, like, these there’s 25

993
00:33:34.115 –> 00:33:36.434
– different behaviors. Right? Guys aren’t gonna struggle with

994
00:33:36.434 –> 00:33:38.355
– every single behavior on there, and it can

995
00:33:38.355 –> 00:33:39.875
– jump the shark. It could be like whack

996
00:33:39.875 –> 00:33:41.559
– a mole. I mean, it’s, like, you know,

997
00:33:41.559 –> 00:33:43.320
– addiction, a good definition is I can never

998
00:33:43.320 –> 00:33:45.099
– have enough of what I don’t truly need.

999
00:33:45.799 –> 00:33:47.320
– Right? You know, so then I can go,

1000
00:33:47.320 –> 00:33:49.320
– well, that’s not an issue. How much self

1001
00:33:49.320 –> 00:33:51.720
– discovery do you wanna do? Correct. Yeah. Most

1002
00:33:51.720 –> 00:33:53.500
– of that. You know, do you wanna actually

1003
00:33:53.674 –> 00:33:56.154
– you know, limit yourself here? Or I think

1004
00:33:56.154 –> 00:33:57.595
– the idea is that it will make you

1005
00:33:57.595 –> 00:33:59.674
– just better overall in everything. It’ll make you

1006
00:33:59.674 –> 00:34:01.595
– better business. That’s why I don’t call it

1007
00:34:01.595 –> 00:34:03.434
– recovery. I like to call it self mastery

1008
00:34:03.434 –> 00:34:06.794
– because recovery, there’s this implied finish line, this

1009
00:34:06.794 –> 00:34:09.369
– cleansing where you detoxed and you’re I like

1010
00:34:09.369 –> 00:34:11.010
– to call it self mastery because it’s like,

1011
00:34:11.010 –> 00:34:12.849
– how how much do you know about what

1012
00:34:12.849 –> 00:34:14.690
– you were doing? And how much do you

1013
00:34:14.690 –> 00:34:17.010
– know about why you were doing that? Because

1014
00:34:17.010 –> 00:34:18.530
– to me, the most recovered, I mean, a

1015
00:34:18.530 –> 00:34:20.450
– guy in the room, he has pretty, you

1016
00:34:20.450 –> 00:34:21.890
– know, none of us know. There’s no blood

1017
00:34:21.890 –> 00:34:24.204
– test to determine what your exact sex addiction

1018
00:34:24.204 –> 00:34:25.885
– is. But I would say that the guy

1019
00:34:25.885 –> 00:34:28.364
– who’s in the best recovery and typically has

1020
00:34:28.364 –> 00:34:30.204
– the best marriage is the guy who could

1021
00:34:30.204 –> 00:34:33.005
– speak very, very, very intellectually to both of

1022
00:34:33.005 –> 00:34:35.324
– those. He’s put a ton of thought into

1023
00:34:35.324 –> 00:34:37.179
– both. And by the way, guys, that’s how

1024
00:34:37.179 –> 00:34:39.420
– you rebuild safety in your marriage. You can’t

1025
00:34:39.500 –> 00:34:41.019
– she will you know, the blind trust and

1026
00:34:41.019 –> 00:34:42.699
– all that, you know, that’s gone. The new

1027
00:34:42.699 –> 00:34:44.800
– safety is, do I trust you to please

1028
00:34:44.860 –> 00:34:47.260
– yourself? Right? I used to make for guys

1029
00:34:47.340 –> 00:34:49.019
– it was kinda funny, but it was it

1030
00:34:49.019 –> 00:34:51.425
– was like a funeral invitation. Right? And it

1031
00:34:51.425 –> 00:34:52.864
– was a a tombstone, and it was like

1032
00:34:52.864 –> 00:34:54.385
– their wedding date and then the day of

1033
00:34:54.385 –> 00:34:56.304
– discovery. And what died was the benefit of

1034
00:34:56.304 –> 00:34:58.465
– the doubt. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah.

1035
00:34:58.465 –> 00:35:00.704
– Right. Perfect. So the benefit of the doubt,

1036
00:35:00.704 –> 00:35:03.025
– you murdered it. It’s dead. But it can

1037
00:35:03.025 –> 00:35:05.280
– be resurrected through recovery. Right? It can be

1038
00:35:05.280 –> 00:35:08.480
– resurrected through creating trust again through time and

1039
00:35:08.480 –> 00:35:10.719
– through consistency and empathy and all those things.

1040
00:35:10.719 –> 00:35:11.460
– And so transparency.

1041
00:35:12.239 –> 00:35:13.300
– Right? Yeah. 100%.

1042
00:35:13.519 –> 00:35:15.599
– The last question, and this is one that

1043
00:35:15.599 –> 00:35:17.519
– we get a lot, but I’m just curious

1044
00:35:17.519 –> 00:35:19.394
– to have a just short conversation on it.

1045
00:35:19.635 –> 00:35:21.974
– Blockers, what do we do about this stuff?

1046
00:35:22.034 –> 00:35:22.855
– As we know,

1047
00:35:23.235 –> 00:35:26.195
– you can basically get around every blocker pretty

1048
00:35:26.195 –> 00:35:28.355
– dang easily. And once you figure out how

1049
00:35:28.355 –> 00:35:30.034
– to get around it, then it’s kind of

1050
00:35:30.034 –> 00:35:32.369
– no longer serving its purpose. As I understand

1051
00:35:32.369 –> 00:35:34.049
– right now, Chris, I don’t think there’s a

1052
00:35:34.049 –> 00:35:36.609
– single one on the market that is not

1053
00:35:36.609 –> 00:35:38.449
– pretty dang easy to get around. So what

1054
00:35:38.449 –> 00:35:39.889
– are we doing with these things? Do we

1055
00:35:39.889 –> 00:35:42.049
– use them? Do we not use them? In

1056
00:35:42.049 –> 00:35:43.650
– a way, it’s kind of fake sobriety. I

1057
00:35:43.650 –> 00:35:45.170
– mean, if the only reason that you’re not

1058
00:35:45.170 –> 00:35:47.285
– acting out is because you can’t, you know,

1059
00:35:47.285 –> 00:35:48.885
– we don’t really know if you’re sober or

1060
00:35:48.885 –> 00:35:50.644
– not. That all being said, the late you

1061
00:35:50.644 –> 00:35:51.785
– know, the betrayed partners

1062
00:35:52.325 –> 00:35:54.805
– really like having this software on the computer.

1063
00:35:54.805 –> 00:35:56.724
– Even when they hear that they’re pretty easy

1064
00:35:56.724 –> 00:35:58.344
– to get around, these ladies still

1065
00:35:58.644 –> 00:36:00.920
– because of all of the ugliness that’s happened,

1066
00:36:00.920 –> 00:36:02.940
– they still want the blockers on the computer.

1067
00:36:03.079 –> 00:36:04.359
– I don’t know, man. I have I have

1068
00:36:04.519 –> 00:36:06.519
– I can’t tell if they’re effective. Most of

1069
00:36:06.519 –> 00:36:07.960
– the guys find a way to figure out

1070
00:36:07.960 –> 00:36:09.960
– a way around them. Sometimes they almost feel

1071
00:36:09.960 –> 00:36:11.559
– like when they get added on, the guys

1072
00:36:11.559 –> 00:36:12.699
– almost have more

1073
00:36:13.079 –> 00:36:14.519
– desire to try to find a way, you

1074
00:36:14.519 –> 00:36:16.494
– know. So what what’s your take on this?

1075
00:36:16.494 –> 00:36:18.894
– I’m I’m pretty undecided. I can’t decide. I’m

1076
00:36:18.894 –> 00:36:21.695
– I’m pro them if they work. I’m against

1077
00:36:21.695 –> 00:36:23.255
– them if they don’t work. That’s kinda where

1078
00:36:23.255 –> 00:36:25.454
– I that’s kinda where I stand. That because

1079
00:36:25.454 –> 00:36:27.389
– they are so easy to get around, they

1080
00:36:27.389 –> 00:36:28.130
– don’t necessarily

1081
00:36:28.510 –> 00:36:30.190
– work for the guy who really to to

1082
00:36:30.190 –> 00:36:32.269
– me, the guy who they work for is

1083
00:36:32.269 –> 00:36:34.510
– the guy who doesn’t really have this massive

1084
00:36:34.510 –> 00:36:35.710
– porn issue. So all of a sudden, this

1085
00:36:35.710 –> 00:36:38.190
– blogger is tremendously effective. The guy who really,

1086
00:36:38.190 –> 00:36:39.650
– really wants to look at porn

1087
00:36:39.949 –> 00:36:42.375
– finds a way to keep finding content. So

1088
00:36:42.375 –> 00:36:43.494
– I don’t know. What what do you mean?

1089
00:36:43.494 –> 00:36:45.015
– I think I always think that if guys

1090
00:36:45.015 –> 00:36:46.775
– took the the bandwidth that they took to

1091
00:36:46.775 –> 00:36:48.375
– get through blockers to get to the porn,

1092
00:36:48.375 –> 00:36:49.894
– like, we could have already discovered a cure

1093
00:36:49.894 –> 00:36:51.974
– for cancer by now. Like, it’s like how

1094
00:36:51.974 –> 00:36:53.974
– much energy have we put into this thing

1095
00:36:53.974 –> 00:36:56.360
– and why If you put that much energy

1096
00:36:56.360 –> 00:36:59.079
– into your marriage, you’d be doing great. You’d

1097
00:36:59.079 –> 00:37:00.599
– be crushing it. Right? So I was kinda

1098
00:37:00.599 –> 00:37:02.200
– looking at it like, so the guys jumped

1099
00:37:02.200 –> 00:37:03.719
– through the hoop. He did the he crawled

1100
00:37:03.719 –> 00:37:05.480
– under the barbed wire. He picked the lock

1101
00:37:05.480 –> 00:37:07.320
– at the liquor cabinet, and then he acted

1102
00:37:07.320 –> 00:37:09.105
– out. And I’m like, that’s amazing. If I’m

1103
00:37:09.105 –> 00:37:11.425
– the spouse, I’m even more upset. Right. But

1104
00:37:11.425 –> 00:37:13.025
– I’m more like, is there some guys who

1105
00:37:13.025 –> 00:37:14.625
– break through so many times? No. No. Chris,

1106
00:37:14.625 –> 00:37:16.224
– it’s true. That’s why that’s why, like I

1107
00:37:16.224 –> 00:37:18.224
– said, I can’t tell where I stand with

1108
00:37:18.224 –> 00:37:20.065
– these because when the guy gets around them,

1109
00:37:20.065 –> 00:37:22.589
– these ladies are pissed, and it causes a

1110
00:37:22.589 –> 00:37:25.230
– massive rift in the relationship because here’s the

1111
00:37:25.230 –> 00:37:27.389
– thing to keep us safe and you’re not

1112
00:37:27.389 –> 00:37:29.630
– only not complying with it, you’re actually going

1113
00:37:29.630 –> 00:37:31.809
– the extra mile to get around it. So

1114
00:37:31.949 –> 00:37:33.949
– again, I I I am I’m curious where

1115
00:37:33.949 –> 00:37:36.109
– you stand with this because I can’t tell

1116
00:37:36.109 –> 00:37:37.170
– if they’re not effective,

1117
00:37:37.605 –> 00:37:39.125
– are they causing more harm? Like, I don’t

1118
00:37:39.125 –> 00:37:41.445
– I don’t really know. So blockers, I view,

1119
00:37:41.445 –> 00:37:43.684
– are like harm reduction. So wearing a seat

1120
00:37:43.684 –> 00:37:45.925
– belt will help you to, you know, maybe

1121
00:37:45.925 –> 00:37:47.204
– not die in the car accident, but it’s

1122
00:37:47.204 –> 00:37:49.284
– not gonna protect you fully. Right? I mean,

1123
00:37:49.284 –> 00:37:51.910
– condoms are harm reduction. Helmets are harm reduction.

1124
00:37:51.910 –> 00:37:53.429
– Right? It’s not gonna reduce the harm to

1125
00:37:53.429 –> 00:37:56.010
– zero, but it can reduce the harm enough.

1126
00:37:56.070 –> 00:37:57.989
– I don’t think anyone’s like, man, I’m a

1127
00:37:57.989 –> 00:37:59.910
– great bowler. I bowled 300. You’re like, you

1128
00:37:59.910 –> 00:38:00.650
– had bumpers.

1129
00:38:01.030 –> 00:38:03.269
– So great job. You bowled 300 with bumpers?

1130
00:38:03.269 –> 00:38:05.849
– Right. Right. Fantastic. Wow. You’re an incredible bowler.

1131
00:38:06.135 –> 00:38:07.894
– But in the beginning, some guys just need

1132
00:38:07.894 –> 00:38:10.054
– it, and they need that accountability. At the

1133
00:38:10.054 –> 00:38:11.655
– end of the day, guys can always pick

1134
00:38:11.655 –> 00:38:13.574
– the lock of the the liquor cabinet. We

1135
00:38:13.574 –> 00:38:15.574
– have to have enough internal motivation, not these

1136
00:38:15.574 –> 00:38:18.054
– external blocker. But that doesn’t mean, like, we

1137
00:38:18.054 –> 00:38:20.579
– shouldn’t have stop signs. Right. Right. Well, everyone’s

1138
00:38:20.579 –> 00:38:21.940
– gonna roll a stop sign, so why have

1139
00:38:21.940 –> 00:38:24.099
– stop signs? Right. Correct. Correct. You know, every

1140
00:38:24.099 –> 00:38:25.619
– kid’s gonna try to drink when they’re 18

1141
00:38:25.619 –> 00:38:27.059
– anyway, so might as well let them drink.

1142
00:38:27.059 –> 00:38:28.579
– Well, no. He’s like, what are we doing?

1143
00:38:28.579 –> 00:38:30.599
– Like Right. Right. We should still have

1144
00:38:30.980 –> 00:38:32.119
– these things in place,

1145
00:38:32.514 –> 00:38:33.875
– and and there’s some that are better than

1146
00:38:33.875 –> 00:38:36.034
– others. Here’s what a blocker should be doing.

1147
00:38:36.034 –> 00:38:38.275
– A blocker can’t be the thing that’s replacing

1148
00:38:38.275 –> 00:38:39.954
– your recovery. Right? It can’t be the only

1149
00:38:39.954 –> 00:38:41.474
– reason I’m sober is because I can’t get

1150
00:38:41.474 –> 00:38:43.635
– to it. It should be the thing that

1151
00:38:43.635 –> 00:38:45.894
– goes, oh, man. I’m trying to uninstall

1152
00:38:46.969 –> 00:38:48.409
– the thing, and I’m trying to break through

1153
00:38:48.409 –> 00:38:48.989
– a firewall.

1154
00:38:49.449 –> 00:38:51.309
– I now need to call my guy

1155
00:38:51.609 –> 00:38:53.449
– because now I’ve slipped, but maybe I haven’t

1156
00:38:53.449 –> 00:38:55.849
– fully relapsed. If a guy is horsing around

1157
00:38:55.849 –> 00:38:57.210
– and scrolling at three in the morning, which,

1158
00:38:57.210 –> 00:38:58.969
– by the way, what’s good is happening at

1159
00:38:58.969 –> 00:39:01.425
– scrolling at three in the morning, like, nothing

1160
00:39:01.425 –> 00:39:03.505
– good is gonna come out of this. You

1161
00:39:03.505 –> 00:39:05.184
– need to reach out to your support. So

1162
00:39:05.184 –> 00:39:06.425
– it kills me because I would have guys

1163
00:39:06.545 –> 00:39:08.385
– when I worked in residential treatment, I would

1164
00:39:08.385 –> 00:39:10.885
– have guys practice. I’m like, we’ve done EMDR.

1165
00:39:10.945 –> 00:39:12.864
– We’ve done family of origin work. We’ve done

1166
00:39:12.864 –> 00:39:14.005
– trauma work. Fantastic.

1167
00:39:14.489 –> 00:39:15.929
– Can you delete all the numbers out of

1168
00:39:15.929 –> 00:39:16.590
– your phone?

1169
00:39:17.130 –> 00:39:19.610
– And then can you practice calling them? And

1170
00:39:19.610 –> 00:39:21.929
– guys go, I’m so yeah. I’m not good.

1171
00:39:21.929 –> 00:39:23.289
– If you can’t call a guy when you’re

1172
00:39:23.289 –> 00:39:25.050
– not struggling, you’re telling me you’re gonna call

1173
00:39:25.050 –> 00:39:26.409
– him at three in the morning or give

1174
00:39:26.409 –> 00:39:28.484
– me a break. So so part of that

1175
00:39:28.484 –> 00:39:30.424
– is leveraging the fact that I can call.

1176
00:39:30.565 –> 00:39:32.085
– But if you ask most men, the reason

1177
00:39:32.085 –> 00:39:33.525
– they won’t reach out to their support, if

1178
00:39:33.525 –> 00:39:35.284
– they break it through the blocker, they’re thinking

1179
00:39:35.284 –> 00:39:36.724
– about it, is I don’t wanna be a

1180
00:39:36.724 –> 00:39:39.045
– burden. I don’t wanna bother anybody, whatever else.

1181
00:39:39.045 –> 00:39:40.565
– And then you do a quick thought experiment.

1182
00:39:40.565 –> 00:39:42.164
– Okay. So a guy calls you at three

1183
00:39:42.164 –> 00:39:43.730
– in the morning, Right? The joke is no

1184
00:39:43.730 –> 00:39:44.929
– one calls from Vegas at three in the

1185
00:39:44.929 –> 00:39:46.849
– morning to talk about the weather. Right? Right.

1186
00:39:46.849 –> 00:39:48.289
– So the guy’s calling you at three in

1187
00:39:48.289 –> 00:39:50.369
– the morning. Are you going, god. What a

1188
00:39:50.369 –> 00:39:52.530
– burden? Or are you like, man, this guy

1189
00:39:52.530 –> 00:39:54.609
– really wants me to help him? Right. Right.

1190
00:39:54.609 –> 00:39:56.530
– And you admire and you admire his recovery

1191
00:39:56.530 –> 00:39:58.545
– as well, his commitment. Right? Mhmm. Because when

1192
00:39:58.545 –> 00:40:00.184
– you call one guy, you help two guys.

1193
00:40:00.184 –> 00:40:02.905
– Right? Right. You’re helping yourself and you’re stealing

1194
00:40:02.905 –> 00:40:04.265
– from him if you don’t call him the

1195
00:40:04.265 –> 00:40:05.945
– opportunity for him to actually do some step

1196
00:40:05.945 –> 00:40:08.025
– 12 work and actually help serve some other

1197
00:40:08.025 –> 00:40:09.625
– guy. Well, I’ll have to I’ll have to

1198
00:40:09.625 –> 00:40:12.429
– show you what we use. So guys, time

1199
00:40:12.429 –> 00:40:14.349
– and time and time again, prove to me

1200
00:40:14.349 –> 00:40:16.110
– that they will not call. So what I

1201
00:40:16.110 –> 00:40:19.150
– invented finally, Chris, we have a cloud based

1202
00:40:19.150 –> 00:40:21.809
– platform where all 10 guys in their group

1203
00:40:22.030 –> 00:40:23.949
– are on it twenty four seven, and you

1204
00:40:23.949 –> 00:40:26.175
– don’t so you’re not calling you don’t have

1205
00:40:26.175 –> 00:40:28.574
– to call. It’s running all the time. It

1206
00:40:28.574 –> 00:40:31.135
– sends everyone an alert that you’re in. So

1207
00:40:31.135 –> 00:40:34.094
– if they’re available at that time, then they’ll

1208
00:40:34.094 –> 00:40:35.535
– be able to see it. But if they’re

1209
00:40:35.535 –> 00:40:37.614
– not available but here’s the interesting thing. Because

1210
00:40:37.614 –> 00:40:39.155
– your brain knows that

1211
00:40:39.460 –> 00:40:41.539
– somebody could pop on there, somebody could see

1212
00:40:41.539 –> 00:40:43.960
– that depending on where they’re living, time zones,

1213
00:40:44.179 –> 00:40:46.119
– it has the same effectiveness of

1214
00:40:46.500 –> 00:40:48.900
– I’m now live streaming this into this group.

1215
00:40:48.900 –> 00:40:51.219
– Because again, I just guys did not call.

1216
00:40:51.219 –> 00:40:52.340
– They, you know, it’s seven in the morning.

1217
00:40:52.340 –> 00:40:53.780
– Oh, the guy’s getting ready for work. I’m

1218
00:40:53.780 –> 00:40:55.855
– not gonna call. Oh, it’s 10:00 at night.

1219
00:40:55.855 –> 00:40:57.934
– He’s with there’s always an excuse to not

1220
00:40:57.934 –> 00:41:00.595
– call. I had to remove that excuse. Now,

1221
00:41:00.655 –> 00:41:02.815
– if you’re not posting something in there and

1222
00:41:02.815 –> 00:41:04.994
– again, that’s why I liked this blocker conversation

1223
00:41:05.055 –> 00:41:06.894
– is I think but I really encourage guys

1224
00:41:06.894 –> 00:41:08.815
– especially when it comes to when it comes

1225
00:41:08.815 –> 00:41:11.190
– clear that the blockers are not effective. I

1226
00:41:11.190 –> 00:41:14.010
– say, listen, you’ve gotta, like, I almost encourage

1227
00:41:14.150 –> 00:41:15.829
– them to just give up on the block.

1228
00:41:15.829 –> 00:41:17.989
– Stop acting like this thing is doing anything

1229
00:41:17.989 –> 00:41:20.550
– because it’s really not. And go for what

1230
00:41:20.550 –> 00:41:22.710
– we know the research says works, which, you

1231
00:41:22.710 –> 00:41:24.230
– know, really, by the time you’re in a

1232
00:41:24.230 –> 00:41:24.730
– ritualistic

1233
00:41:25.030 –> 00:41:27.105
– thought process, we all know there’s one there’s

1234
00:41:27.105 –> 00:41:28.945
– only one thing you can do. And that

1235
00:41:28.945 –> 00:41:31.025
– is to, you know, tell somebody about it.

1236
00:41:31.025 –> 00:41:31.985
– You know? And if you don’t wanna call

1237
00:41:31.985 –> 00:41:33.425
– guys, go tell your wife. The only reason

1238
00:41:33.425 –> 00:41:35.025
– we we tell you guys to go tell

1239
00:41:35.025 –> 00:41:37.105
– other guys is maybe your wife won’t want

1240
00:41:37.105 –> 00:41:38.545
– to or maybe you don’t want to keep

1241
00:41:38.545 –> 00:41:40.210
– telling your wife. But, you know, first a

1242
00:41:40.210 –> 00:41:41.730
– lot of guys I say, listen, if the

1243
00:41:41.730 –> 00:41:43.730
– guy thing’s not working and you know, it’s

1244
00:41:43.730 –> 00:41:45.489
– really important to your partner that you guys

1245
00:41:45.489 –> 00:41:47.730
– clean this stuff up, maybe you do go

1246
00:41:47.730 –> 00:41:49.570
– see if she’d be open to be somebody

1247
00:41:49.570 –> 00:41:51.410
– to check-in with. But to me, the answer

1248
00:41:51.410 –> 00:41:52.849
– of like, oh, I can’t call guys, I

1249
00:41:52.849 –> 00:41:54.289
– can’t tell my wife, and I can’t rely

1250
00:41:54.289 –> 00:41:56.545
– on blockers. Well, then why are we even

1251
00:41:56.545 –> 00:41:58.485
– in recovery then? Because it sounds like community,

1252
00:41:58.545 –> 00:42:00.545
– right, is the best accountability. Right? Not a

1253
00:42:00.625 –> 00:42:01.525
– not an accountability

1254
00:42:01.985 –> 00:42:05.025
– partner who’s some imaginary thing or a blocker.

1255
00:42:05.025 –> 00:42:06.805
– I need commute. Right? Any people

1256
00:42:07.119 –> 00:42:08.639
– that are gonna hold me accountable because I’m

1257
00:42:08.639 –> 00:42:10.639
– in community, not because I’m like, oh, no.

1258
00:42:10.639 –> 00:42:12.559
– I’ve done a bad thing. I’m gonna reach

1259
00:42:12.559 –> 00:42:14.000
– out to them because they’re actually my people.

1260
00:42:14.000 –> 00:42:15.519
– Right? I’ve got practice then. I’ve got a

1261
00:42:15.599 –> 00:42:17.440
– Yeah. Yeah. You should want to I mean,

1262
00:42:17.440 –> 00:42:19.519
– that’s why I put I do 10 groups

1263
00:42:19.519 –> 00:42:21.119
– of 10 in my recovery group and keep

1264
00:42:21.119 –> 00:42:23.765
– them all together the whole time. Yep. Through

1265
00:42:23.765 –> 00:42:25.945
– everything. Through the weekly calls, the retreats

1266
00:42:26.485 –> 00:42:28.244
– is the only way I know how to

1267
00:42:28.244 –> 00:42:30.985
– make these guys feel like friends is to

1268
00:42:31.285 –> 00:42:32.965
– become friends. You have to become friends. So

1269
00:42:32.965 –> 00:42:35.125
– 100%. This is shocking. And if you’re gonna

1270
00:42:35.125 –> 00:42:36.539
– have friends, you gotta be a good friend.

1271
00:42:36.699 –> 00:42:38.380
– Great. Yeah. Yeah. It’s exciting. I appreciate it.

1272
00:42:38.460 –> 00:42:40.140
– Like, you might be the common denominator as

1273
00:42:40.140 –> 00:42:41.420
– to why you got Well, Chris, this was

1274
00:42:41.420 –> 00:42:44.140
– a great conversation. If guys liked your vibe,

1275
00:42:44.140 –> 00:42:45.900
– liked your energy, where are you licensed? How

1276
00:42:45.900 –> 00:42:47.420
– do they work with you? What’s Yeah. What

1277
00:42:47.500 –> 00:42:49.099
– what’s working with Chris? Yeah. So I’m I’m

1278
00:42:49.099 –> 00:42:50.594
– licensed in Florida. You can just go to

1279
00:42:50.594 –> 00:42:52.594
– my website. You can email me. You can

1280
00:42:52.594 –> 00:42:53.554
– put all that in. I’ll give you that

1281
00:42:53.554 –> 00:42:54.755
– information. You could you could send it to

1282
00:42:54.755 –> 00:42:57.394
– them. And I do virtual, so everything’s virtual.

1283
00:42:57.394 –> 00:42:59.235
– And I I also have a place that

1284
00:42:59.235 –> 00:43:00.275
– I’m gonna be probably in the middle of

1285
00:43:00.275 –> 00:43:01.394
– the year gonna be opening up to to

1286
00:43:01.394 –> 00:43:02.914
– be doing intensives out there. Yeah. Heck yeah.

1287
00:43:02.914 –> 00:43:05.074
– So Nice. So I’m excited about that. So,

1288
00:43:05.074 –> 00:43:06.640
– yeah, that’s it. I’m out here for it.

1289
00:43:06.640 –> 00:43:09.219
– We’ll, we’ll include the information in there. Chris,

1290
00:43:09.360 –> 00:43:11.039
– one more question. If there was a guy

1291
00:43:11.039 –> 00:43:13.199
– listening to this who’s having a hard time

1292
00:43:13.199 –> 00:43:15.840
– stopping, give him the action to take today.

1293
00:43:15.840 –> 00:43:17.119
– Because a lot of guys, I think they

1294
00:43:17.119 –> 00:43:18.880
– have. They’ve they’ve semi given up. Right? It’s

1295
00:43:18.880 –> 00:43:20.320
– like, oh, every other guy was able to

1296
00:43:20.320 –> 00:43:21.764
– stop but me. What would you say to

1297
00:43:21.764 –> 00:43:22.505
– that guy?

1298
00:43:22.804 –> 00:43:24.724
– Yeah. Well, one, I think that guy’s not

1299
00:43:24.724 –> 00:43:27.125
– in community. Right? I think out the gate,

1300
00:43:27.125 –> 00:43:28.964
– you don’t have other people with you. And

1301
00:43:28.964 –> 00:43:30.184
– if you are in community,

1302
00:43:30.484 –> 00:43:33.284
– are you othering yourself? That’s the other thing,

1303
00:43:33.284 –> 00:43:34.484
– Chris. Because I’ve you know, the guys who

1304
00:43:34.484 –> 00:43:36.949
– I’ve seen struggle with this, they might be

1305
00:43:36.949 –> 00:43:38.170
– in a group, but they

1306
00:43:38.630 –> 00:43:41.210
– insistently remind their brain that they’re different.

1307
00:43:41.670 –> 00:43:43.269
– That they’re not the group doesn’t like them.

1308
00:43:43.269 –> 00:43:45.109
– Right? You know, they’re they’re they’re extra screwed

1309
00:43:45.109 –> 00:43:46.949
– up. They’re Right. I yeah. I love the

1310
00:43:46.949 –> 00:43:48.869
– the kind of, you know, chronic uniqueness of

1311
00:43:48.869 –> 00:43:50.389
– addiction. Right? I just have a really good

1312
00:43:50.389 –> 00:43:51.684
– grand sponsor who used to telling me, come

1313
00:43:51.684 –> 00:43:53.045
– down off the cross. We could use the

1314
00:43:53.045 –> 00:43:54.184
– wood. Right?

1315
00:43:54.484 –> 00:43:56.724
– Like, so I’m so special, right, that I

1316
00:43:56.724 –> 00:43:58.324
– can’t I’m the broken toy that can’t get

1317
00:43:58.324 –> 00:43:59.605
– fixed. I’m the monster at the end of

1318
00:43:59.605 –> 00:44:01.444
– the book. It’s actually kind of a form

1319
00:44:01.444 –> 00:44:04.284
– of, like, addiction narcissism. It is. It is.

1320
00:44:04.284 –> 00:44:07.224
– I’m so severely broken. I’m like, yeah. No.

1321
00:44:07.739 –> 00:44:09.820
– That’s not true. It’s the willingness and the

1322
00:44:09.820 –> 00:44:11.579
– readiness to wanna change, and you can’t do

1323
00:44:11.579 –> 00:44:12.940
– it by yourself. So you’re gonna have to

1324
00:44:12.940 –> 00:44:14.860
– be an authentic community. And if you can’t

1325
00:44:14.860 –> 00:44:16.539
– share with people, then you’re not in authentic

1326
00:44:16.539 –> 00:44:18.860
– community. Right? Because you’re keeping it to yourself.

1327
00:44:18.860 –> 00:44:21.440
– Right? Which ultimately not reaching out for help

1328
00:44:21.500 –> 00:44:24.175
– is also selfish. Right. I’m robbing other people

1329
00:44:24.175 –> 00:44:26.734
– the opportunity to be my support. Right. Right.

1330
00:44:26.734 –> 00:44:27.234
– Yeah.

1331
00:44:27.614 –> 00:44:29.454
– What I heard you say there was, well,

1332
00:44:29.454 –> 00:44:31.954
– you might think you’re experiencing deep connection.

1333
00:44:32.335 –> 00:44:34.574
– You might not. What what I found was,

1334
00:44:34.574 –> 00:44:35.775
– you know, I was checking I was checking

1335
00:44:35.775 –> 00:44:37.614
– the boxes forever. It was finally when I

1336
00:44:37.614 –> 00:44:39.610
– had, like, a tribe of men that we

1337
00:44:39.610 –> 00:44:41.150
– were like jamming on this with.

1338
00:44:41.449 –> 00:44:43.530
– Oh dude, everything just got easy. And I

1339
00:44:43.530 –> 00:44:45.769
– was pissed because I didn’t take connection seriously

1340
00:44:45.769 –> 00:44:47.369
– for about a year. Most guys don’t. They

1341
00:44:47.369 –> 00:44:48.809
– hear it but it’s, you know, they go

1342
00:44:48.809 –> 00:44:50.489
– to the meeting and they feel like they’re

1343
00:44:50.489 –> 00:44:52.535
– doing it because, you know, actually, let me

1344
00:44:52.535 –> 00:44:54.295
– rephrase that. A lot of them actually do

1345
00:44:54.295 –> 00:44:55.735
– think they’re doing it because they ask their

1346
00:44:55.735 –> 00:44:57.335
– CSAT, what do I need to do for

1347
00:44:57.335 –> 00:44:59.255
– connection? They say, well, you go into the

1348
00:44:59.255 –> 00:45:01.335
– groups, you have some numbers. And so the

1349
00:45:01.335 –> 00:45:02.615
– guys are like, yep, yep, yep. And they’re

1350
00:45:02.615 –> 00:45:04.135
– like, okay, well, yeah, that’s how you do

1351
00:45:04.135 –> 00:45:05.470
– it. No, that is not how you do

1352
00:45:05.470 –> 00:45:07.070
– it. I went to the those meetings for

1353
00:45:07.070 –> 00:45:08.349
– a year. I was nice to all of

1354
00:45:08.349 –> 00:45:10.349
– them, gave them all high fives and joked

1355
00:45:10.349 –> 00:45:12.430
– about sports. I wasn’t connected to a single

1356
00:45:12.430 –> 00:45:14.030
– one of them. Yeah. Not a single one

1357
00:45:14.030 –> 00:45:16.110
– of them, not even the sponsor. So that’s

1358
00:45:16.110 –> 00:45:17.630
– the thing is, you know, I I’ve taken

1359
00:45:17.630 –> 00:45:19.489
– off what you said was, like,

1360
00:45:19.885 –> 00:45:21.885
– don’t lie to yourself. If this isn’t your

1361
00:45:21.885 –> 00:45:24.204
– bro, your homie, you don’t want to call

1362
00:45:24.204 –> 00:45:26.364
– this guy, you’re not enjoying your interactions with

1363
00:45:26.364 –> 00:45:28.684
– him, find somebody else. I mean, it’s this

1364
00:45:28.684 –> 00:45:31.325
– is imagine your best friend, that’s what one

1365
00:45:31.325 –> 00:45:33.269
– of these guys needs to be, but it

1366
00:45:33.269 –> 00:45:34.710
– does need to have a boundary around it

1367
00:45:34.710 –> 00:45:36.730
– that what you guys are talking about is

1368
00:45:37.030 –> 00:45:39.190
– this. But I mean, you should feel as

1369
00:45:39.190 –> 00:45:41.110
– close to this person. And if you’re not,

1370
00:45:41.110 –> 00:45:43.670
– again, that’s not connection. Now you’re just calling

1371
00:45:43.670 –> 00:45:45.844
– a guy and talking about sex and porn.

1372
00:45:45.844 –> 00:45:47.284
– Well, that’s tell me you have an intimacy

1373
00:45:47.284 –> 00:45:48.984
– disorder without telling me you have an intimacy.

1374
00:45:49.284 –> 00:45:51.684
– Yeah. We’ll see. Right? Intimacy isn’t just sexual

1375
00:45:51.684 –> 00:45:54.264
– intimacy. Right? So I need to have intimacy

1376
00:45:54.324 –> 00:45:56.644
– first with other men who it’s kinda like

1377
00:45:56.644 –> 00:45:58.164
– the base level. Right? Like, trying to have

1378
00:45:58.164 –> 00:45:59.684
– hold the empathy and space for your wife

1379
00:45:59.684 –> 00:46:01.650
– is like end level. I need cheat codes

1380
00:46:01.650 –> 00:46:03.090
– hard. I’m fighting the big boss at the

1381
00:46:03.090 –> 00:46:04.849
– end of the level. Playing on demo mode

1382
00:46:04.849 –> 00:46:06.609
– is finding other guys who struggle exactly the

1383
00:46:06.609 –> 00:46:08.530
– same way you struggle and then being open

1384
00:46:08.530 –> 00:46:10.210
– and honest with them about it. And they

1385
00:46:10.210 –> 00:46:11.570
– go, oh, okay. Cool. I’m in a room

1386
00:46:11.570 –> 00:46:13.844
– of struggle. This is fantastic. These guys all

1387
00:46:13.844 –> 00:46:16.405
– the time. Right? Yeah. Right. That’s how you

1388
00:46:16.405 –> 00:46:16.905
– initially

1389
00:46:17.285 –> 00:46:19.684
– break through an intimacy disorder is having intimacy

1390
00:46:19.684 –> 00:46:21.445
– with other men that are having the same

1391
00:46:21.445 –> 00:46:24.085
– struggle. Correct. 100%. Thanks, Chris. I appreciate this.

1392
00:46:24.085 –> 00:46:25.765
– And everybody, yeah, we’ll throw Chris’ link in

1393
00:46:25.765 –> 00:46:27.769
– the show notes. Awesome. I appreciate it, Ron.

1394
00:46:27.769 –> 00:46:28.429
– Thank you.

1395
00:46:29.849 –> 00:46:32.090
– Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1396
00:46:32.090 –> 00:46:33.769
– are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1397
00:46:33.769 –> 00:46:35.610
– and you’re looking for a recovery group full

1398
00:46:35.610 –> 00:46:38.565
– of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1399
00:46:38.724 –> 00:46:41.525
– We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1400
00:46:41.525 –> 00:46:42.744
– using four day retreats,

1401
00:46:43.125 –> 00:46:45.925
– weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1402
00:46:45.925 –> 00:46:48.164
– If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1403
00:46:48.164 –> 00:46:50.244
– save your marriage, go to our website, fill

1404
00:46:50.244 –> 00:46:50.984
– out our application.

1405
00:46:51.364 –> 00:46:53.829
– If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1406
00:46:53.829 –> 00:46:55.429
– along to a friend in recovery who would

1407
00:46:55.429 –> 00:46:57.429
– benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1408
00:46:57.429 –> 00:46:59.109
– get this information out to as many high

1409
00:46:59.109 –> 00:47:01.349
– achievers as possible, and I can’t do it

1410
00:47:01.349 –> 00:47:02.329
– without your help.