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I never want a check-in to be a

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checklist.

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This isn't about just checking a box and

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going through the motions.

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The whole point of a genuine

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check-in is I'm checking in with my self

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first.

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I can't share what I don't have.

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I can't share something embodied and meaningful if

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I'm dissociated

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and

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completely not present.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles

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specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

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I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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more information about joining our group or attending

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our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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In this episode, Jill Manning and I talk

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about check ins. Now, check ins are something

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that we see pretty often with couples who

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have experienced sexual betrayal. It's because

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there was this ongoing deception, you know, these

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years and years of lying, and the

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partner who was betrayed

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did not know that this lying was happening,

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right? So, the concept of a check-in is

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to have this day pass by and know

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confidently at the end of the day, Hey,

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is there anything that I need to know

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today?

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Now, check ins, there's mixed reviews on this,

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right? Because they don't always

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work out in terms of bringing the couple

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together. Sometimes check ins actually have the opposite

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effect, right? It's a disconnecting experience between the

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couple and it ends up being really kind

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of a bum thing to end your day

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with. Well, in this episode, we talk about

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how can we come together in the check-in

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process and how can we make this a

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trust rebuilding and a relationship building exercise

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rather than one that separates the two of

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you or ends in disconnect.

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Hello, everybody. I am here with Jill Manning

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and oh my gosh, it feels like I've

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been counting down the days for months for

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this episode.

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But Jill had this wonderful idea for the

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topic and the second she said it, it

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lit me up. And that's the concept of

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check ins. Check ins were between the cheating

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partner and the betrayed partner. How often we

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do it? How do we do it? You

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know, what I find often, both from personal

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experience and a lot of guys in my

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groups is a lot of people, it's not

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helping anything. It's actually making things worse. But

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the problem is then we don't do check

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ins and that makes things worse too. So

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welcome to Betrayal Recovery. It's this rock and

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hard place place that we find ourselves quite

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often. And, Jill, I can't wait for you

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to help us find a solution here because

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I do. I agree. I think not doing

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them's not okay, but at the same time

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doing them and having one person

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or both people not find them helpful, then

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that begs the question, why are we doing

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this at all in the first place? So

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before we dive in, I have a big

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series of questions that I'm ready to ask

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you, but any comments you wanna make on

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your experience

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as to why it's advantageous for couples to

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find a way to do a check-in of

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some kind?

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Oh, that's well, thank you. It's really a

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delight to be a part of this today.

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And I've been a marriage and family therapist

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for twenty five years, and for the vast

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majority of that, I've specialized in betrayal.

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And check ins are one of those things

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that, just as you noted,

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people have, like, a love hate relationship with

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it and will often let them go

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to their detriment, I believe. And the couples

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that will do them,

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I see those couple consistently.

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They're the ones that I see making more

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traction more quickly.

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Yeah. They're in individually.

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So it's they're free. They're free to do.

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They take very little time,

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but they make a huge difference. So that's

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why I want people to harness the power

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of them because they just are so helpful

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if you can get the right type, the

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right frequency,

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and both people

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are embodying

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what that can do. And I I liken

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it to exercise. I mean, how many people

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have we met say, I hate to exercise.

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That falls on really deaf ears for trainers,

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you know, people that love sports or are

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professional fitness trainers. It's finding the right type

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of exercise and what's right for your body

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and lifestyle.

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And, you know, some people need to work

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out at home or outside or in a

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gym. And so check ins are a little

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like that. They work muscles that we need

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to work relationally.

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And I'd actually like to start with a

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quote. It's very brief, and it's by Confucius,

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which I mean, is are we really podcasting

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unless we we have to quote him?

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And so he said, like, a long, long

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time ago, he said, words are the voice

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of the heart. Oh, cool. Now the problem

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with that, that's a beautiful sentiment. I don't

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know fully his intention in stating that, but

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I have a small army of betrayed adults

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in my head when I read quotes like

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that because words are also the voice of

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the deceiver. Mhmm.

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And so there there lies the challenge

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is when we don't trust, when trust is

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broken down,

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how do we restore that?

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There's many ways to do that. But check

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ins, if used effectively

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and people really understand the power of them,

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can be pretty transformative.

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Yes. You can give away back from deception

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and disconnection

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to connection

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and true intimacy.

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Yes. And that's the objective,

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And

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it is not a common, I would say,

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almost,

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let's call it 90% of people I talk

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to, the check-in is this dreaded moment of

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the day. So let's dive into

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the psychology of that first, and then we'll

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talk about

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options and doing this constructively. Because I do

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agree with you. Not doing this is not

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a great idea. I mean, I I would

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say, you know, when we look at trust

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rebuilding, it's it's rebuilt over time bit by

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bit by bit by bit by bit. Right?

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And so if you're not doing something daily

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consistently,

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what a great way to rebuild trust. Whereas,

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yeah, without that check-in,

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maybe no trust was built that day. And

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I always say if no trust was built

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that day, usually it's a micro step backwards

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from what I've seen. So then a week

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goes by, no trust was built that week.

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Now a little bigger of a micro step

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backwards

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of we're not making any progress towards trust,

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and it's one of those things I find

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if you're not tending to it, it does

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tend to degrade especially within this dynamic. But

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I wanna first talk about where it goes

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wrong. Let's talk about that. So for me,

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I think the number one thing that I

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personally felt and I hear this from almost

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every guy in my groups is that they

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feel

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like a mom

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son vibe to it. Speak to that aspect

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because that is I personally felt that, and

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it was it was the last thing I

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wanted to do at the end of my

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day. So my day is over,

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It's 08:15PM.

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It was a good day. I'm actually feeling

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in a decent mood. So is my wife,

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which is rare in the betrayal dynamic. We

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both had a good day. Oh my gosh.

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And now I'm dreading

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this.

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I'm feeling like she's actually my wife. Now

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I'm in this check-in dynamic where I feel

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like a 10 year old who's

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coming clean about what I did or didn't

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do that day. What what do we do

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about that dynamic, Jill? The keyword that comes

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to mind for me with what you're describing,

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even though you're not using this word, is

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imbalance.

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Mhmm. This is really key. I'm so glad

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you're opening with this because

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when there's a betrayal,

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there's a power imbalance in one direction.

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And when we come out into truth and

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we're being transparent or we've had a disclosure

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or we're working towards sobriety,

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Even if someone's not an addict, they're working

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towards stopping a destructive behavior or getting into

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integrity.

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There can be a power imbalance of a

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different kind where the betrayed adult now feels

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like,

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Never again. You are not gonna dupe me.

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And even some therapy modalities, which I won't

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name, I don't wanna get in trouble with

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whole organizations,

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even encourage this. Right? The betrayal I've heard

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that. They'll say they need to have the

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one up temporarily, and I cringe every time

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I hear that.

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And maybe very short term, but that I

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think is destructive in its own way for

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both people. Yeah. Both people. So

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They don't teach that in your my wife's

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getting her LMT.

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They don't teach

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giving any sort of power dynamic

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for any reason. Equal, you know, everything that

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I've always heard equals the way, equals always

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the way. Never giving one person the one

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up over another person just kind of violates

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safety, in my opinion, one way or another.

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And that is in in a normal situation.

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Yes. Right? Equality should reign. But when we

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have betrayal, there's a huge correction of an

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imbalance. Right? Anyone who's holding secrets, and I'm

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not talking about there are benevolent secrets. Like,

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you know, I have a stash of birthday

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gifts for my daughter who has a birthday

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next week. I have told benevolent white lies

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to keep this a secret from her, but

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this is to her benefit next week and

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all will be known then. Right? I'm not

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talking about those kinds of secrets. We're talking

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about secrets that really put people's lives and

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marriages and families at risk. That's an imbalance

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that overnight,

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it's gonna land really poorly if we just

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say, okay, it's out in the open. Now

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we're totally equal.

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It takes time to grow into that. However,

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in a check-in that's effective, I do believe

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that needs to be

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balanced.

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And in that balance,

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let's talk about that for a minute. Where

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I see imbalance occurred

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is when it's only the unfaithful party that's

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checking in. That's a surefire way to do

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it.

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Or when they're checking in about different things.

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Mhmm.

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So I prefer

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types of check ins where they're both agreeing.

268
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There's some unity around what do we both

269
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:31,420
need to get out of a check-in?

270
00:09:31,879 --> 00:09:34,279
What's the information that's most helpful for each

271
00:09:34,279 --> 00:09:36,300
of us? And maybe there are different points

272
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,440
we are checking in on, but we're in

273
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:38,940
agreement

274
00:09:39,554 --> 00:09:41,315
about why and what the information is that

275
00:09:41,315 --> 00:09:43,174
we're hoping to get from those check ins.

276
00:09:43,394 --> 00:09:45,794
So we have agreement going in. There's unity

277
00:09:45,794 --> 00:09:49,075
about why we're doing this. Mhmm. And both

278
00:09:49,075 --> 00:09:51,875
people are checking in. I can't count, Roland,

279
00:09:51,875 --> 00:09:52,855
the number of times

280
00:09:53,410 --> 00:09:55,649
I've discovered to my dismay, even though I've

281
00:09:55,649 --> 00:09:57,029
taught or set up a check-in

282
00:09:57,410 --> 00:10:00,149
intervention or exercise for a couple to do

283
00:10:00,370 --> 00:10:03,090
where she's not checking in. Mhmm. Like, well,

284
00:10:03,090 --> 00:10:05,250
why aren't you checking in? Well, I'm not

285
00:10:05,250 --> 00:10:07,090
the addict. I'm not the one that messed

286
00:10:07,090 --> 00:10:08,450
up or I'm not the one that right?

287
00:10:08,450 --> 00:10:10,745
And that speaks to the doghouse effect that

288
00:10:10,745 --> 00:10:13,485
you're mentioning. Like, you've had a great, successful,

289
00:10:13,625 --> 00:10:16,845
productive day at work. You've felt good.

290
00:10:17,544 --> 00:10:18,664
Come to the end of the day and

291
00:10:18,664 --> 00:10:20,024
it's like, Oh, yeah. Now I'm in the

292
00:10:20,024 --> 00:10:21,004
doghouse again.

293
00:10:21,784 --> 00:10:24,149
Yes. I am with you. I wouldn't wanna

294
00:10:24,149 --> 00:10:26,649
be part of a check-in like that. Mhmm.

295
00:10:26,789 --> 00:10:28,629
And so I think it goes to why

296
00:10:28,629 --> 00:10:30,089
are we having check ins?

297
00:10:30,549 --> 00:10:33,129
The way I summarize it is it's truly

298
00:10:33,190 --> 00:10:35,049
to get to know one another.

299
00:10:35,774 --> 00:10:39,054
I'm sharing my check-in in reality to be

300
00:10:39,054 --> 00:10:39,554
known,

301
00:10:40,334 --> 00:10:43,294
and I'm listening to my partner's check-in to

302
00:10:43,294 --> 00:10:44,914
get to know. Mhmm.

303
00:10:45,855 --> 00:10:48,735
That's a balancing effect right there, and we're

304
00:10:48,735 --> 00:10:51,629
both sharing similar amounts of time. So if

305
00:10:51,629 --> 00:10:53,389
I were to list the mistakes that I

306
00:10:53,389 --> 00:10:55,230
see couples get into with check ins, check

307
00:10:55,230 --> 00:10:57,709
ins are way too long. Mhmm. It feels

308
00:10:57,709 --> 00:11:00,190
like a scheduled fight. I hear that phrase

309
00:11:00,190 --> 00:11:01,470
a lot. Why would we do this? It's

310
00:11:01,470 --> 00:11:03,629
just a scheduled fight. In the first six

311
00:11:03,629 --> 00:11:04,850
months, I would say

312
00:11:05,605 --> 00:11:07,384
three out of four turned into

313
00:11:07,845 --> 00:11:09,144
some degree of

314
00:11:09,764 --> 00:11:10,424
a uncomfortable

315
00:11:10,725 --> 00:11:13,225
dialogue. Yep. Mhmm. I hear that a lot.

316
00:11:13,365 --> 00:11:14,745
We can work with that

317
00:11:15,125 --> 00:11:17,125
to figure out what's going on there and

318
00:11:17,125 --> 00:11:18,745
what do we need to course correct

319
00:11:19,059 --> 00:11:21,540
with the check-in process. So I really am

320
00:11:21,540 --> 00:11:23,080
a big fan of time limits,

321
00:11:23,460 --> 00:11:25,940
and I I'm gonna self disclose something that

322
00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:28,580
so neither my husband and I are in

323
00:11:28,580 --> 00:11:31,139
an addictive cycle. There's not been betrayal in

324
00:11:31,139 --> 00:11:32,420
in the sense that you and I are

325
00:11:32,420 --> 00:11:33,480
focused on today.

326
00:11:33,965 --> 00:11:36,605
However, I believe any couple can benefit from

327
00:11:36,605 --> 00:11:39,264
good check. And so my husband and I,

328
00:11:39,565 --> 00:11:42,285
especially in early marriage, when our kids were

329
00:11:42,285 --> 00:11:44,285
really little, we would do once a week

330
00:11:44,285 --> 00:11:46,289
what we called it marriage maintenance. And every

331
00:11:46,289 --> 00:11:48,450
Sunday after the little ones were asleep, we

332
00:11:48,450 --> 00:11:50,450
would do marriage maintenance. That was a time

333
00:11:50,450 --> 00:11:51,970
and day of the week that worked for

334
00:11:51,970 --> 00:11:52,470
us.

335
00:11:52,769 --> 00:11:55,350
Now my husband is a scientist,

336
00:11:56,210 --> 00:11:58,129
so he's to the point, cut to the

337
00:11:58,129 --> 00:12:00,434
chase, give me the punch line. And I'm

338
00:12:00,434 --> 00:12:02,995
a therapist. I'm a talker. Let let's discuss.

339
00:12:02,995 --> 00:12:03,815
Let's explore.

340
00:12:04,355 --> 00:12:06,754
So there is an imbalance of time. Right?

341
00:12:06,754 --> 00:12:08,215
I could talk to, like, housekeeping,

342
00:12:09,154 --> 00:12:11,075
and my husband's, like, right to the point.

343
00:12:11,075 --> 00:12:13,394
And so that became an issue in our

344
00:12:13,394 --> 00:12:14,294
check-in. Mhmm.

345
00:12:15,149 --> 00:12:17,169
So imbalance of time,

346
00:12:17,709 --> 00:12:19,709
I really believe both people need the same

347
00:12:19,709 --> 00:12:22,370
amount of time. Mhmm. I like to start

348
00:12:22,509 --> 00:12:24,829
couples on, like, no more than eight to

349
00:12:24,829 --> 00:12:25,569
ten minutes.

350
00:12:25,870 --> 00:12:28,269
Four minutes or five minutes each, truly. I

351
00:12:28,269 --> 00:12:28,769
think

352
00:12:29,084 --> 00:12:31,564
couples can cover anything they need to for

353
00:12:31,564 --> 00:12:32,625
a check-in purpose

354
00:12:33,004 --> 00:12:34,684
in that amount of time. Mhmm. I like

355
00:12:34,684 --> 00:12:36,845
that. Mhmm. It really should not be more

356
00:12:36,845 --> 00:12:38,464
than eight to ten minutes combined.

357
00:12:39,004 --> 00:12:39,824
And so

358
00:12:40,365 --> 00:12:42,169
Jill gets four or five minutes.

359
00:12:42,789 --> 00:12:44,389
My husband gets four or five minutes. Do

360
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:46,950
you know how delighted he was when he

361
00:12:46,950 --> 00:12:49,350
set that time limit? And we would literally

362
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:51,029
have a timer. We have, like, a little

363
00:12:51,029 --> 00:12:53,269
egg timer because we put phones and all

364
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:55,190
devices away. So we just have a little

365
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:55,850
egg timer

366
00:12:56,235 --> 00:12:59,514
and that balance things out. Mhmm. That's one

367
00:12:59,514 --> 00:13:01,054
way to balance things out.

368
00:13:01,674 --> 00:13:04,014
Another thing that gets imbalanced is inconsistency.

369
00:13:05,355 --> 00:13:07,274
When we're doing it sometimes, but not others,

370
00:13:07,274 --> 00:13:09,534
that lets things fester and build up.

371
00:13:10,019 --> 00:13:10,519
It's

372
00:13:10,899 --> 00:13:12,920
you and I both know working in business,

373
00:13:13,139 --> 00:13:16,279
the time that's wasted and just scheduling stuff,

374
00:13:16,820 --> 00:13:19,080
it's such an enormous amount of waste.

375
00:13:19,460 --> 00:13:21,940
So just I really encourage couples to choose

376
00:13:21,940 --> 00:13:24,660
a day time of day that works best

377
00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:27,455
for them. To your point, if evening, that

378
00:13:27,455 --> 00:13:29,795
may have been a setup for failure. Mhmm.

379
00:13:30,335 --> 00:13:32,415
Right? People are afraid. They're done. They need

380
00:13:32,415 --> 00:13:34,495
to wind down. Mhmm. Mhmm. You know, it

381
00:13:34,495 --> 00:13:37,394
may be eight minutes in the morning. Mhmm.

382
00:13:38,009 --> 00:13:40,330
Maybe every day is too much. That is

383
00:13:40,330 --> 00:13:41,790
for most couples, I think.

384
00:13:42,330 --> 00:13:44,029
So if they can do consistently

385
00:13:44,410 --> 00:13:46,889
once a week at a set time, it's

386
00:13:46,889 --> 00:13:49,529
scheduled, we know this is sacred time, we

387
00:13:49,529 --> 00:13:50,590
keep it religiously,

388
00:13:51,944 --> 00:13:54,204
that's a big win. And that also balances

389
00:13:54,264 --> 00:13:57,245
things too. It balances that there's not this

390
00:13:57,384 --> 00:13:59,485
backlog of things to talk about,

391
00:14:00,105 --> 00:14:01,944
that we're just letting things build up and

392
00:14:01,944 --> 00:14:05,929
build up. So time limits, consistent time of

393
00:14:05,929 --> 00:14:06,750
day and

394
00:14:07,209 --> 00:14:09,209
day of the week. It also gets out

395
00:14:09,209 --> 00:14:11,789
of balance when couples let things get stale.

396
00:14:11,929 --> 00:14:14,089
Mhmm. If we checked in the exact same

397
00:14:14,089 --> 00:14:16,350
way, like, I know couples that hate Thanos.

398
00:14:16,745 --> 00:14:18,664
Mhmm. Like, you know, I hate Thanos. I

399
00:14:18,664 --> 00:14:21,164
hate the word. I get goosebumps and PTSD

400
00:14:21,225 --> 00:14:22,204
just hearing it.

401
00:14:22,745 --> 00:14:25,804
Fair enough. People don't have to like Thanos.

402
00:14:26,345 --> 00:14:28,105
Thanos works for a lot of people, but

403
00:14:28,105 --> 00:14:30,764
if it doesn't for you, that's totally fine.

404
00:14:30,985 --> 00:14:34,320
Find something that does Mhmm. And find something

405
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,720
that's mutually beneficial. That again is a way

406
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:37,860
to balance things.

407
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,799
Is it meaningful for her and him? If

408
00:14:40,799 --> 00:14:42,799
not, then let's find a different way. And

409
00:14:42,799 --> 00:14:44,799
I think I have three things that just

410
00:14:44,879 --> 00:14:46,960
I've been, like, ringing in my head is,

411
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:47,460
one,

412
00:14:48,284 --> 00:14:51,004
why are we doing a check-in, and is

413
00:14:51,004 --> 00:14:53,964
the check-in structure going to accomplish the thing

414
00:14:53,964 --> 00:14:55,585
that you want? I would advise

415
00:14:56,445 --> 00:14:59,725
the betrayed partners to talk to either his

416
00:14:59,725 --> 00:15:02,065
CSAT or a CSAT or your CSAT

417
00:15:02,740 --> 00:15:03,240
about

418
00:15:03,860 --> 00:15:06,420
what you're hoping to get and have them

419
00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:08,580
help you come up with a way to

420
00:15:08,580 --> 00:15:09,940
achieve that. Because I do. I think at

421
00:15:09,940 --> 00:15:11,639
least from what I see, there's a mismatch

422
00:15:11,779 --> 00:15:14,980
very often in, I want this, and then

423
00:15:14,980 --> 00:15:18,095
I expect Thanos to give me that, and

424
00:15:18,095 --> 00:15:20,835
Thanos doesn't give them that. And so then

425
00:15:21,295 --> 00:15:22,735
what are we doing? Because if he hates

426
00:15:22,735 --> 00:15:24,815
doing the Thanos and you're not getting what

427
00:15:24,815 --> 00:15:28,175
you want from that style of check-in, why

428
00:15:28,175 --> 00:15:29,375
are we doing it? Because I do. I

429
00:15:29,375 --> 00:15:30,975
think a lot of these check ins are

430
00:15:30,975 --> 00:15:33,360
just being done because they're being told to

431
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,300
do them. And I don't think there's

432
00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:37,680
a lot of thought around to what would

433
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,840
make me feel safe in recovery. And I

434
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,500
think that question needs to be asked because

435
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,040
I think what I've noticed is my wife's

436
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,420
definition of safety

437
00:15:47,084 --> 00:15:48,684
is different than a lot of the other

438
00:15:48,684 --> 00:15:51,404
betrayed partners' definition of what safety is. And

439
00:15:51,404 --> 00:15:53,084
so I think to use a one size

440
00:15:53,084 --> 00:15:54,064
fits all check-in,

441
00:15:54,605 --> 00:15:56,524
it might miss the mark. Comment on that

442
00:15:56,524 --> 00:15:58,144
before I ask my other two questions.

443
00:15:58,764 --> 00:16:01,004
Yeah. Well, I'm gonna say something that I

444
00:16:01,004 --> 00:16:03,360
hope lands the way that I intended.

445
00:16:03,820 --> 00:16:06,059
When we think of often part of the

446
00:16:06,059 --> 00:16:07,899
root of these issues that get us to

447
00:16:07,899 --> 00:16:09,740
the spot in the first place are the

448
00:16:09,740 --> 00:16:12,860
constant pursuit of novelty. Mhmm. And so we

449
00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:14,539
have to be really careful then in the

450
00:16:14,539 --> 00:16:15,039
therapeutic

451
00:16:15,584 --> 00:16:18,084
course corrections and the medicine, if you will,

452
00:16:18,384 --> 00:16:21,184
that we're not boring people. Now I'm not

453
00:16:21,184 --> 00:16:23,264
saying let's reinforce and let's I wanna be

454
00:16:23,264 --> 00:16:24,625
careful with this because I don't wanna give

455
00:16:24,625 --> 00:16:26,784
the idea, oh, yeah. Novelty is something we

456
00:16:26,784 --> 00:16:28,004
should just always pursue.

457
00:16:28,490 --> 00:16:30,429
There is a case to be made for

458
00:16:30,730 --> 00:16:32,009
I don't have to brush my teeth a

459
00:16:32,009 --> 00:16:34,089
different way every single day to reap the

460
00:16:34,089 --> 00:16:35,769
benefits of that, and I'm not gonna stop

461
00:16:35,769 --> 00:16:37,289
brushing my teeth because I get bored of

462
00:16:37,289 --> 00:16:39,610
brushing my teeth. There's there's certain things we

463
00:16:39,610 --> 00:16:41,449
do in life because we do them. But

464
00:16:41,449 --> 00:16:42,509
with check ins,

465
00:16:42,904 --> 00:16:45,225
I think it is really important that people

466
00:16:45,225 --> 00:16:48,105
are not getting stale or bored with what

467
00:16:48,105 --> 00:16:50,105
we're checking in about. I really think a

468
00:16:50,105 --> 00:16:52,684
sign of success, Roland, of an effective check-in

469
00:16:53,144 --> 00:16:55,325
is people leave that time

470
00:16:56,110 --> 00:16:59,309
having gained something. They've shared something and they've

471
00:16:59,309 --> 00:17:00,210
gained something.

472
00:17:00,669 --> 00:17:02,590
There's a point of like, oh, I learned

473
00:17:02,590 --> 00:17:04,369
something about my partner today.

474
00:17:05,070 --> 00:17:05,570
Meaningful.

475
00:17:06,910 --> 00:17:08,990
That's the sign of a good check-in. Yes.

476
00:17:08,990 --> 00:17:11,490
Yeah. I agree with that. Right. And so,

477
00:17:11,785 --> 00:17:13,785
yeah, the type of check-in is just like

478
00:17:13,785 --> 00:17:14,845
types of workouts.

479
00:17:15,224 --> 00:17:16,984
I don't like all types of workouts that

480
00:17:16,984 --> 00:17:18,744
my friends like or even that my husband

481
00:17:18,744 --> 00:17:21,865
likes. So we find what works. So there's

482
00:17:21,865 --> 00:17:24,664
five options that I'll introduce to couples, and

483
00:17:24,664 --> 00:17:26,125
I'll just mention these briefly.

484
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:28,380
Thanos is one that I teach and and

485
00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:31,019
I'll recommend because it's so commonly known, and

486
00:17:31,019 --> 00:17:32,940
so it gives a common language. But if

487
00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:35,359
that doesn't work for people, that's totally fine.

488
00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:37,419
The Thanos is an option, and I think

489
00:17:37,419 --> 00:17:39,775
it works some key muscles. Yeah. And you

490
00:17:39,775 --> 00:17:42,095
gotta try stuff to know what will work

491
00:17:42,095 --> 00:17:44,494
too. So you can't just say, oh, that

492
00:17:44,494 --> 00:17:46,654
one won't work. Well, try it and then

493
00:17:46,654 --> 00:17:48,095
take what you like and leave what you

494
00:17:48,095 --> 00:17:49,694
don't and then try another one and then

495
00:17:49,694 --> 00:17:51,555
try another one and try another one. Yeah.

496
00:17:51,730 --> 00:17:54,049
I also love the vowel check. Yeah. Yeah.

497
00:17:54,049 --> 00:17:55,029
We've heard that too.

498
00:17:55,490 --> 00:17:58,769
I also have encouraged couples write out 50

499
00:17:58,769 --> 00:18:01,250
preset questions that are meaningful to you based

500
00:18:01,250 --> 00:18:02,470
on your circumstances.

501
00:18:03,409 --> 00:18:06,394
And then each month, choose from those. Okay.

502
00:18:06,394 --> 00:18:08,555
This month, we're gonna check-in on these three

503
00:18:08,555 --> 00:18:10,174
questions. We're going to

504
00:18:10,634 --> 00:18:12,954
ask them or maybe there's different questions for

505
00:18:12,954 --> 00:18:13,775
him and her.

506
00:18:14,154 --> 00:18:16,474
Mhmm. K. But they've together come up with

507
00:18:16,474 --> 00:18:18,480
what's meaningful for them. Yeah. I like that.

508
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,039
I've also had couples that have put all

509
00:18:21,039 --> 00:18:23,279
those 50 questions. I'm using 50 as a

510
00:18:23,279 --> 00:18:24,099
random number

511
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,000
in a jar or envelope, and they'll just

512
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,720
randomly choose. They like the variety and the

513
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:29,220
unpredictability

514
00:18:29,919 --> 00:18:30,494
of it.

515
00:18:30,894 --> 00:18:33,375
So if someone really seeks novelty, but we're

516
00:18:33,375 --> 00:18:35,615
trying to shift that into healthy novelty

517
00:18:36,015 --> 00:18:38,734
Mhmm. Rather than Oh, I really like that.

518
00:18:38,734 --> 00:18:39,234
Maybe,

519
00:18:39,694 --> 00:18:42,015
like, a die or something, and we roll

520
00:18:42,015 --> 00:18:44,255
the 12 sided die and we ask one

521
00:18:44,255 --> 00:18:46,960
of the 12 questions or 20. Yeah. I

522
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:48,079
like that. That's a cool idea. And it

523
00:18:48,079 --> 00:18:50,160
would be, dare I say something playful about

524
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:51,940
it? Sure. We're creative.

525
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,200
Sure. It's meaningful for them. And so find

526
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:55,940
out whatever.

527
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,259
Yeah. I like that so much.

528
00:18:58,674 --> 00:19:01,015
Boring people or just not sitting right.

529
00:19:01,315 --> 00:19:03,654
That's a really insightful thing to know.

530
00:19:04,115 --> 00:19:05,394
You know, I just hate how we go

531
00:19:05,394 --> 00:19:07,634
over the same stuff every week. Well, you

532
00:19:07,714 --> 00:19:09,474
it's funny you mentioned that because my wife

533
00:19:09,474 --> 00:19:10,775
and I, for the first

534
00:19:11,250 --> 00:19:13,809
five years of our marriage prior to all

535
00:19:13,809 --> 00:19:14,470
of this,

536
00:19:14,769 --> 00:19:16,529
we had a check-in that we did at

537
00:19:16,529 --> 00:19:18,609
night, and it was, what are you thankful

538
00:19:18,609 --> 00:19:19,910
for? What are you celebrating?

539
00:19:20,450 --> 00:19:22,049
What do you want more of today? What

540
00:19:22,049 --> 00:19:23,835
do you want less of today? What What

541
00:19:23,835 --> 00:19:25,474
are you curious about today? And is there

542
00:19:25,474 --> 00:19:26,994
anything you request of me? And it was

543
00:19:26,994 --> 00:19:29,634
really fun. I I really enjoyed it. And

544
00:19:29,634 --> 00:19:32,275
then we got into this freaking crap, and

545
00:19:32,275 --> 00:19:34,755
I'm like, I hate this. This is the

546
00:19:34,755 --> 00:19:37,875
worst way to end every dinner is with

547
00:19:37,875 --> 00:19:39,329
this. But I bring you bring up a

548
00:19:39,329 --> 00:19:39,990
good point.

549
00:19:40,369 --> 00:19:41,990
Having this spontaneous

550
00:19:42,369 --> 00:19:45,009
thing where there'll be some recovery based questions,

551
00:19:45,009 --> 00:19:47,569
but it's also an opportunity to connect as

552
00:19:47,569 --> 00:19:48,930
well. I think that would have been more

553
00:19:48,930 --> 00:19:51,105
enjoyable for me. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean,

554
00:19:51,105 --> 00:19:53,125
think of the power of there was something,

555
00:19:53,184 --> 00:19:55,045
maybe many things that really

556
00:19:55,664 --> 00:19:57,525
spoke to you Mhmm. With that

557
00:19:57,984 --> 00:20:00,545
set of questions. Mhmm. It it opened things

558
00:20:00,545 --> 00:20:02,184
for both of you Mhmm. That you enjoy.

559
00:20:02,184 --> 00:20:03,904
So what if that had been the check-in

560
00:20:03,904 --> 00:20:05,125
and maybe there's one

561
00:20:05,424 --> 00:20:06,359
recovery question

562
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,279
in that mix? Mhmm. Or those those what

563
00:20:10,279 --> 00:20:12,380
am I grateful for? You know, that list

564
00:20:13,079 --> 00:20:15,259
is recovery focused, let's say.

565
00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:17,880
Now another point going back to your original

566
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:19,880
question of being in the dog house and

567
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:20,539
that imbalance,

568
00:20:21,715 --> 00:20:22,215
often

569
00:20:23,235 --> 00:20:26,275
check ins need more affirmation and celebration of

570
00:20:26,275 --> 00:20:27,335
what's going well.

571
00:20:27,795 --> 00:20:30,035
So if there's too much negativity, if it's

572
00:20:30,035 --> 00:20:32,835
just a, like, dredge session of, oh, like,

573
00:20:32,835 --> 00:20:35,634
how are we failing humans today? Who wants

574
00:20:35,634 --> 00:20:37,335
to be part of that, really?

575
00:20:37,849 --> 00:20:40,570
Now that's not to dismiss. Hey. We have

576
00:20:40,570 --> 00:20:42,410
big issues to face, and there's been real

577
00:20:42,410 --> 00:20:43,710
harm done, and

578
00:20:44,890 --> 00:20:46,670
wrong has happened. Okay.

579
00:20:47,289 --> 00:20:48,430
But we can affirm

580
00:20:49,289 --> 00:20:51,150
my partner is willing to do the work.

581
00:20:52,024 --> 00:20:54,204
I'm grateful that you're willing to show up

582
00:20:54,345 --> 00:20:56,125
and even engage this process.

583
00:20:56,825 --> 00:20:58,585
I'm grateful that you're willing to tell the

584
00:20:58,585 --> 00:21:01,244
truth or that we're both committed to emotional

585
00:21:01,304 --> 00:21:01,804
work.

586
00:21:02,345 --> 00:21:04,365
There's ways to I think affirmation's

587
00:21:04,744 --> 00:21:05,244
key

588
00:21:05,890 --> 00:21:06,710
for both

589
00:21:07,089 --> 00:21:09,329
people. Well, you're going into kind of two

590
00:21:09,329 --> 00:21:11,089
questions that I had, which I think need

591
00:21:11,089 --> 00:21:12,470
to be addressed, which

592
00:21:13,009 --> 00:21:14,950
are, I think in the beginning,

593
00:21:16,049 --> 00:21:18,289
I don't think the couples are really well

594
00:21:18,289 --> 00:21:20,789
equipped just from a knowledge and

595
00:21:21,134 --> 00:21:23,775
understanding and grounded standpoint to be able to

596
00:21:23,775 --> 00:21:26,015
do a really effective check-in. What I mean

597
00:21:26,015 --> 00:21:26,755
by that is

598
00:21:27,455 --> 00:21:30,914
neither the betrayed partner or the compulsive partner

599
00:21:31,134 --> 00:21:32,275
really knows

600
00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:35,559
what's actually they don't really understand

601
00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:38,740
their compulsivity quite yet because that takes time

602
00:21:38,740 --> 00:21:40,420
and reps to kind of figure out what's

603
00:21:40,420 --> 00:21:42,019
going on in your brain. And then the

604
00:21:42,019 --> 00:21:44,980
partners, I mean, they're betrayed, they're mad, this

605
00:21:44,980 --> 00:21:46,054
is so unfair.

606
00:21:46,434 --> 00:21:48,274
They didn't ask for any of this, this

607
00:21:48,274 --> 00:21:50,755
has been plopped on them. So now, you

608
00:21:50,755 --> 00:21:51,414
know, there's

609
00:21:52,194 --> 00:21:54,134
just a lot of anger, injustice

610
00:21:54,674 --> 00:21:56,674
in that phase. And so what I find

611
00:21:56,674 --> 00:21:58,115
in the beginning, because I do want you

612
00:21:58,115 --> 00:21:59,619
to speak to this because I think in

613
00:21:59,619 --> 00:22:01,079
the beginning is when

614
00:22:01,779 --> 00:22:04,740
the check ins are wanted the most because,

615
00:22:04,740 --> 00:22:06,579
you know, in the betrayed partner circles, there

616
00:22:06,579 --> 00:22:08,419
is this, hey, are you checking in every

617
00:22:08,419 --> 00:22:10,900
night? Are you and they want to control

618
00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:12,500
and make sure they don't get tricked again

619
00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:14,664
and lied to again. Right? But again, I

620
00:22:14,664 --> 00:22:16,924
think the thing that makes it really difficult

621
00:22:17,224 --> 00:22:17,724
is,

622
00:22:18,424 --> 00:22:20,365
you know, just naturally the partners,

623
00:22:21,224 --> 00:22:23,545
they don't like the reality. And the reality

624
00:22:23,545 --> 00:22:24,045
is

625
00:22:24,505 --> 00:22:26,505
their recovery is theirs, and there's really not

626
00:22:26,505 --> 00:22:27,945
a whole lot. He can definitely make it

627
00:22:27,945 --> 00:22:29,809
worse, but he can empathize. But a lot

628
00:22:29,809 --> 00:22:32,450
of their recovery work is their work. We're

629
00:22:32,450 --> 00:22:33,750
in charge of our reality.

630
00:22:34,049 --> 00:22:36,289
And that's a that's just not something that

631
00:22:36,289 --> 00:22:38,849
they really wanna entertain very early on because

632
00:22:38,849 --> 00:22:41,170
they're so mad. It's like, I shouldn't have

633
00:22:41,170 --> 00:22:43,170
to suffer. This person's the one who did

634
00:22:43,170 --> 00:22:45,269
all everything wrong, which we all know

635
00:22:45,595 --> 00:22:47,355
that's not how it works. You know, you

636
00:22:47,434 --> 00:22:49,035
if you wanna recover from this, you have

637
00:22:49,035 --> 00:22:50,715
to recover from it. Right? And that's your

638
00:22:50,715 --> 00:22:52,235
work. But then on the addict side of

639
00:22:52,235 --> 00:22:54,335
things too, or the compulsive side of things,

640
00:22:54,555 --> 00:22:56,475
I don't think they really know why they're

641
00:22:56,475 --> 00:22:58,795
doing what they're doing, certainly not that well

642
00:22:58,795 --> 00:23:00,809
in the first six months. So I say

643
00:23:00,809 --> 00:23:01,909
all that to say,

644
00:23:02,529 --> 00:23:03,190
to me,

645
00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:05,669
we're really poorly equipped

646
00:23:06,049 --> 00:23:07,750
to have an effective

647
00:23:08,210 --> 00:23:10,289
it seems like we're really poorly set up

648
00:23:10,289 --> 00:23:11,269
to have an effective

649
00:23:12,049 --> 00:23:14,130
check-in with where both people are at in

650
00:23:14,130 --> 00:23:16,274
the first six months. What do we do

651
00:23:16,274 --> 00:23:19,075
there when that dynamic is that dynamic? Because

652
00:23:19,075 --> 00:23:21,414
it is those first six months are

653
00:23:22,355 --> 00:23:24,514
everything but grounded. That is probably one of

654
00:23:24,514 --> 00:23:26,274
the hardest times that these couples will ever

655
00:23:26,274 --> 00:23:28,194
encounter in their entire lives. How do we

656
00:23:28,194 --> 00:23:30,375
have a constructive check-in within that dynamic?

657
00:23:30,869 --> 00:23:32,809
So grateful you're bringing this up because

658
00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:35,750
in effective work in this space, nothing is

659
00:23:35,750 --> 00:23:38,230
cookie cutter. Mhmm. And so we have to

660
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:38,730
adapt.

661
00:23:39,829 --> 00:23:42,789
We have to adapt to that reality for

662
00:23:42,789 --> 00:23:43,529
the couple.

663
00:23:44,184 --> 00:23:46,605
And so it may be in that

664
00:23:46,904 --> 00:23:49,005
initial phase of massive imbalance,

665
00:23:49,545 --> 00:23:52,505
check ins may need to be perhaps different

666
00:23:52,505 --> 00:23:53,945
than they are going to be a year

667
00:23:53,945 --> 00:23:56,710
out. Mhmm. So when I'm this is an

668
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:59,029
important clarification. I think check ins can be

669
00:23:59,029 --> 00:24:00,490
beneficial if modified

670
00:24:00,870 --> 00:24:02,490
and attuned to the situation

671
00:24:02,950 --> 00:24:04,490
at any phase of recovery.

672
00:24:05,190 --> 00:24:05,690
But

673
00:24:06,309 --> 00:24:09,049
after disclosure, once truth's on the table

674
00:24:09,565 --> 00:24:12,365
and both people have some safety and supports

675
00:24:12,365 --> 00:24:13,345
in place, that's

676
00:24:13,644 --> 00:24:16,285
generally what I'm referring to with check-in today.

677
00:24:16,285 --> 00:24:19,105
Mhmm. Mhmm. Now in that early, early phase,

678
00:24:19,644 --> 00:24:21,404
what I say to my clients who are

679
00:24:21,404 --> 00:24:22,144
the betrayed

680
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:23,690
side of this equation

681
00:24:24,150 --> 00:24:26,150
is I don't ever want them coming to

682
00:24:26,150 --> 00:24:26,890
a check-in

683
00:24:27,509 --> 00:24:29,909
seeking. I don't want them turning to him

684
00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:32,309
as their first responder. Yeah. Yeah. I like

685
00:24:32,309 --> 00:24:34,230
that. Mhmm. She has to be her own

686
00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:35,049
first responder.

687
00:24:36,285 --> 00:24:38,845
So I will ask and encourage, are you

688
00:24:38,845 --> 00:24:39,985
ready to check-in?

689
00:24:41,005 --> 00:24:43,005
What would that look like? Are you able

690
00:24:43,005 --> 00:24:44,845
to ground yourself before you get to a

691
00:24:44,845 --> 00:24:47,744
check-in, or are you, like, so spinning mad?

692
00:24:47,980 --> 00:24:50,619
You're waiting for the check-in to just fire

693
00:24:50,619 --> 00:24:52,940
off a list of questions or, like, let

694
00:24:52,940 --> 00:24:54,859
him have it? Well, because the check-in at

695
00:24:54,859 --> 00:24:57,519
least Not not a check-in. Right. The check-in

696
00:24:57,579 --> 00:25:00,220
from my experience in that first six months

697
00:25:00,220 --> 00:25:00,720
is,

698
00:25:01,465 --> 00:25:04,184
what'd you do today? And is there anything

699
00:25:04,184 --> 00:25:05,884
that I have? And that is absolutely

700
00:25:06,664 --> 00:25:08,664
the energy. I don't care what these ladies

701
00:25:08,664 --> 00:25:10,585
say if they did not like the energy

702
00:25:10,585 --> 00:25:13,384
really is, okay. Here's my one time of

703
00:25:13,384 --> 00:25:14,924
the day where I get to

704
00:25:15,420 --> 00:25:17,820
get some justice here and some clarity here

705
00:25:17,820 --> 00:25:19,420
and find out what you did to our

706
00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:22,140
relationship. And, oh my gosh, I just dreaded

707
00:25:22,140 --> 00:25:24,640
that moment every night. Yeah. It's not productive.

708
00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:27,820
Mhmm. That's not productive. And there have been

709
00:25:27,820 --> 00:25:30,059
clients, Roland, I've said, hey. We're not ready

710
00:25:30,059 --> 00:25:33,035
for that yet. Mhmm. We may need for,

711
00:25:33,035 --> 00:25:34,955
like, a substitute for that. If that's the

712
00:25:34,955 --> 00:25:37,674
dynamic, I would rather her show up for

713
00:25:37,674 --> 00:25:40,575
fifteen minutes of his individual therapy session

714
00:25:41,195 --> 00:25:43,674
and just hear with the therapist and him

715
00:25:43,674 --> 00:25:44,174
present.

716
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:46,740
You know, what are they currently focused on?

717
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,059
What's the status of disclosure preparation?

718
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,259
How is she channeling that energy into disclosure

719
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:52,820
questions?

720
00:25:53,759 --> 00:25:56,080
Because if someone's firing off questions like that,

721
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:57,680
what did you do today? You know, how

722
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,994
did you cheat and lie and deceive today?

723
00:26:00,454 --> 00:26:01,674
That's active trauma.

724
00:26:02,934 --> 00:26:04,775
So when any of us are in active

725
00:26:04,775 --> 00:26:07,414
trauma, almost impossible for our brains to be

726
00:26:07,414 --> 00:26:07,914
relational.

727
00:26:08,934 --> 00:26:10,934
That may not be the time to introduce

728
00:26:10,934 --> 00:26:13,115
that. If a couple's really dysregulated

729
00:26:14,269 --> 00:26:15,329
or she's dysregulated,

730
00:26:16,109 --> 00:26:18,990
she may need more support, more grounding skills,

731
00:26:18,990 --> 00:26:19,809
more safety,

732
00:26:20,349 --> 00:26:22,450
and then move gradually into

733
00:26:22,829 --> 00:26:24,909
a balance sheet. My impression of it was

734
00:26:24,909 --> 00:26:26,429
exactly that. It was

735
00:26:27,230 --> 00:26:29,169
it felt like the check-in

736
00:26:30,144 --> 00:26:31,444
put me into

737
00:26:32,144 --> 00:26:32,804
a headspace

738
00:26:34,224 --> 00:26:34,724
where

739
00:26:35,345 --> 00:26:38,384
it harmed trust because now she was with

740
00:26:38,384 --> 00:26:41,204
somebody who was shut off, tuned out,

741
00:26:41,505 --> 00:26:42,005
disconnected,

742
00:26:43,019 --> 00:26:43,519
cowering,

743
00:26:43,980 --> 00:26:46,220
right? Everything that she doesn't want me to

744
00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:48,539
be, the check ins would put me there.

745
00:26:48,539 --> 00:26:50,380
I was bracing for impact, right? So there

746
00:26:50,380 --> 00:26:52,859
was already some defensiveness. I felt like I

747
00:26:52,859 --> 00:26:54,880
was being treated like a second class citizen.

748
00:26:55,099 --> 00:26:56,720
That is something I've heard from

749
00:26:57,265 --> 00:26:59,984
almost every guy in my groups, every guy

750
00:26:59,984 --> 00:27:01,825
feels as if they're being treated like a

751
00:27:01,825 --> 00:27:04,464
second class citizen within their household. And to

752
00:27:04,464 --> 00:27:06,484
me, that just doesn't create a

753
00:27:06,785 --> 00:27:07,684
healing environment

754
00:27:07,984 --> 00:27:10,144
either to heal from compulsive behavior or to

755
00:27:10,144 --> 00:27:12,804
heal a marriage going through this. And so

756
00:27:13,319 --> 00:27:15,880
for the people listening who that's been the

757
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,039
case, it does feel like a, well, what'd

758
00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:19,880
you do to me today? And am I

759
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,960
safe today? If that's what how do we

760
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,559
change that? How do we modify that? What

761
00:27:23,559 --> 00:27:24,940
are these couples to do?

762
00:27:25,525 --> 00:27:28,085
Yeah. Really great question. It's complex and layered.

763
00:27:28,085 --> 00:27:29,605
It is. Mhmm. It's not why I'm not

764
00:27:29,605 --> 00:27:31,444
a couple therapist is I don't wanna be

765
00:27:31,444 --> 00:27:33,204
asked those I don't wanna be asked those

766
00:27:33,204 --> 00:27:33,704
questions.

767
00:27:34,244 --> 00:27:36,984
Well, and I think timing is key.

768
00:27:37,890 --> 00:27:40,450
So if the dynamic you're describing is what

769
00:27:40,450 --> 00:27:43,009
was going on for someone, I'd say, let's

770
00:27:43,009 --> 00:27:46,130
push pause. Yeah. There is more individual work

771
00:27:46,130 --> 00:27:49,029
needed before we get into a relational dynamic

772
00:27:49,089 --> 00:27:49,589
because

773
00:27:50,204 --> 00:27:53,025
exactly what you said, if he's already bracing

774
00:27:53,404 --> 00:27:54,625
and feeling defensive

775
00:27:55,164 --> 00:27:57,565
or he's getting flooded and shutting down and

776
00:27:57,565 --> 00:27:59,025
going into shame spiral

777
00:27:59,404 --> 00:28:00,865
and she's on the attack

778
00:28:01,244 --> 00:28:03,244
because she is not going to be duped

779
00:28:03,244 --> 00:28:05,744
again, she feels threatened. They're both feeling threatened.

780
00:28:06,099 --> 00:28:08,679
Mhmm. There can't be connection in that

781
00:28:09,059 --> 00:28:09,559
physiologically.

782
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:12,679
Mhmm. Impossible to build connection

783
00:28:12,980 --> 00:28:15,220
or trust or safety for either one of

784
00:28:15,220 --> 00:28:17,299
them in that moment. Mhmm. So we don't

785
00:28:17,299 --> 00:28:20,519
want the medicine to become the poison. Mhmm.

786
00:28:21,134 --> 00:28:22,974
So it may be this is assigned to

787
00:28:22,974 --> 00:28:25,615
us. We need to be doing our own

788
00:28:25,615 --> 00:28:26,115
work

789
00:28:26,494 --> 00:28:28,174
more. So I gotta push on you there

790
00:28:28,174 --> 00:28:31,154
because I that. Made that vocal

791
00:28:31,615 --> 00:28:33,075
that I did not feel

792
00:28:33,750 --> 00:28:34,970
like this was constructive,

793
00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:35,930
safe.

794
00:28:36,309 --> 00:28:38,710
And then I got attacked for speaking up

795
00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:41,430
about that because the assumption was that I

796
00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:43,769
don't wanna check-in because I wanna,

797
00:28:44,070 --> 00:28:46,549
whatever, get away with whatever I'm doing. How

798
00:28:46,549 --> 00:28:48,345
do we do that? Because that is almost

799
00:28:48,424 --> 00:28:50,924
always what the partners fire back with when

800
00:28:51,144 --> 00:28:53,484
the guys criticizing the check-in is

801
00:28:54,105 --> 00:28:56,065
they come back with, oh, well, you're trying

802
00:28:56,065 --> 00:28:57,625
to be avoidant. You're trying not to do

803
00:28:57,625 --> 00:28:59,065
the work. You're trying to stay in your

804
00:28:59,065 --> 00:28:59,565
addiction.

805
00:29:00,184 --> 00:29:02,089
That's not really what I meant when I

806
00:29:02,089 --> 00:29:03,609
said it. I just hated doing it, and

807
00:29:03,609 --> 00:29:05,369
it felt like it was making my addiction

808
00:29:05,369 --> 00:29:07,389
worse and our marriage worse.

809
00:29:07,690 --> 00:29:09,210
What do we do in that dynamic? Because

810
00:29:09,210 --> 00:29:11,769
that does happen very often. So the thing

811
00:29:11,769 --> 00:29:12,990
I and if I'm

812
00:29:13,474 --> 00:29:16,035
misreading this, tell me because that's not my

813
00:29:16,035 --> 00:29:17,095
intention here.

814
00:29:17,474 --> 00:29:18,455
What I'm hearing

815
00:29:18,835 --> 00:29:21,414
as the need in that dynamic is accountability.

816
00:29:22,035 --> 00:29:25,015
Mhmm. Yes. She's needing you to be accountable

817
00:29:25,234 --> 00:29:26,295
for what's happening

818
00:29:26,859 --> 00:29:29,119
that she thought wasn't happening before.

819
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:30,319
Yeah. Correct.

820
00:29:30,779 --> 00:29:33,019
So we're not gonna get around the need

821
00:29:33,019 --> 00:29:33,759
for accountability.

822
00:29:34,220 --> 00:29:36,220
But I'm I'm gonna kind of redirect the

823
00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:37,359
question back to

824
00:29:37,740 --> 00:29:38,799
what would have been

825
00:29:39,099 --> 00:29:39,839
a format

826
00:29:40,299 --> 00:29:41,440
of being accountable

827
00:29:42,214 --> 00:29:43,835
and living above suspicion

828
00:29:44,535 --> 00:29:47,035
that you think would have worked for you

829
00:29:47,255 --> 00:29:49,414
and would have also given her key information

830
00:29:49,414 --> 00:29:51,815
that she needed in early recovery? So it's

831
00:29:51,815 --> 00:29:53,734
tough. I because I can answer that, but

832
00:29:53,734 --> 00:29:55,815
here's what makes it really tough though, Jill,

833
00:29:55,815 --> 00:29:58,019
is because that's kind of where we are

834
00:29:58,019 --> 00:30:00,419
at now. But again, I don't think I

835
00:30:00,419 --> 00:30:02,359
could have done what I'm doing

836
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:03,400
in

837
00:30:03,779 --> 00:30:06,039
advanced recovery in the beginning, because

838
00:30:06,659 --> 00:30:08,835
I didn't know enough about my process addiction

839
00:30:18,355 --> 00:30:20,755
primarily my biggest issue is a distrust of

840
00:30:20,755 --> 00:30:23,250
others, and an over reliance on myself and

841
00:30:23,250 --> 00:30:25,409
only myself to get my needs met that

842
00:30:25,409 --> 00:30:26,769
no one else will be able to get

843
00:30:26,769 --> 00:30:28,529
my needs met but me, and there's a

844
00:30:28,529 --> 00:30:30,769
lot of entitlement involved with that attitude. And

845
00:30:30,769 --> 00:30:32,609
I know to this day, those are the

846
00:30:32,609 --> 00:30:34,929
two things that are lingering that have driven

847
00:30:34,929 --> 00:30:36,865
a lot of my behavior. And I'm so

848
00:30:36,865 --> 00:30:38,865
fine talking about that. I'm so fine talking

849
00:30:38,865 --> 00:30:40,785
about what my therapists and my groups and

850
00:30:40,785 --> 00:30:42,464
all of my are doing around that because

851
00:30:42,464 --> 00:30:44,144
that's what the recovery is. But I want

852
00:30:44,144 --> 00:30:46,704
your help with this, Jill. So, a, what

853
00:30:46,704 --> 00:30:48,545
do you do when you don't know the

854
00:30:48,545 --> 00:30:51,130
ins and outs of what you're doing wrong

855
00:30:51,130 --> 00:30:53,769
with your humanity that's causing all of this?

856
00:30:53,769 --> 00:30:55,529
So that's number one because I don't think

857
00:30:55,529 --> 00:30:56,589
the guys are equipped

858
00:30:56,970 --> 00:30:58,650
to be able to really explain this in

859
00:30:58,650 --> 00:31:00,430
the way that will satisfy

860
00:31:01,130 --> 00:31:03,690
her or look like accountability. And then my

861
00:31:03,690 --> 00:31:06,825
second question to that is the industry in

862
00:31:06,825 --> 00:31:09,164
the field makes this very sexual,

863
00:31:10,025 --> 00:31:12,184
and I think we could kinda retreat a

864
00:31:12,184 --> 00:31:13,865
little bit and call this what it is,

865
00:31:13,865 --> 00:31:15,565
which is a process addiction.

866
00:31:16,025 --> 00:31:18,105
Because I think the problem with making this

867
00:31:18,105 --> 00:31:20,539
a sex addiction and a porn addiction is

868
00:31:20,839 --> 00:31:23,079
I think the partners wanna hear about the

869
00:31:23,079 --> 00:31:25,399
sex and the porn stuff because that's what

870
00:31:25,399 --> 00:31:27,960
is and I think the problem is that's

871
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:28,859
so downstream.

872
00:31:30,039 --> 00:31:33,404
Really, what the issue is, there's these core

873
00:31:33,404 --> 00:31:35,644
issues within the person's thought process and what

874
00:31:35,644 --> 00:31:38,144
they're after that's driving the behavior.

875
00:31:38,444 --> 00:31:41,164
And that's really the recovery work. The sex

876
00:31:41,164 --> 00:31:43,484
and the porn stuff, to me, that's one

877
00:31:43,484 --> 00:31:44,625
of many avenues

878
00:31:45,085 --> 00:31:47,884
that somebody like my process addiction, I acted

879
00:31:47,884 --> 00:31:48,359
out

880
00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:50,519
nine of the 10 ways I acted out

881
00:31:50,519 --> 00:31:52,779
were non sexual, and I acted out sexually

882
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:54,920
one in 10 times. And so to me,

883
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,519
to focus on that one in 10 really

884
00:31:56,519 --> 00:31:57,819
wasn't an accurate description

885
00:31:58,519 --> 00:31:59,019
of

886
00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:01,720
the mental state and the way of being

887
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,819
that I've chosen to live that makes

888
00:32:04,244 --> 00:32:04,984
those activities

889
00:32:05,365 --> 00:32:07,765
possible. So do you understand what I'm saying?

890
00:32:07,765 --> 00:32:09,845
It's basically Yeah. It's I feel as if

891
00:32:09,845 --> 00:32:12,184
it's kind of two things. One, the guys

892
00:32:12,244 --> 00:32:15,464
aren't equipped to do a very good check-in

893
00:32:15,525 --> 00:32:16,025
that

894
00:32:16,390 --> 00:32:18,630
really act. But then I also feel like

895
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:19,929
there is this demonizing

896
00:32:20,789 --> 00:32:22,970
of the sexual practices and this overemphasis

897
00:32:23,429 --> 00:32:24,950
on check ins that I feel like are

898
00:32:24,950 --> 00:32:27,029
kinda missing the mark. If you I can

899
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:28,950
see that. That makes sense. I think that's

900
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:30,410
why it needs to be tailored

901
00:32:31,045 --> 00:32:33,224
in a meaningful way to each coupleship.

902
00:32:33,605 --> 00:32:34,105
Mhmm.

903
00:32:34,404 --> 00:32:35,305
Here's something

904
00:32:35,765 --> 00:32:36,825
for this dynamic.

905
00:32:37,285 --> 00:32:39,464
What's going through my mind is

906
00:32:40,005 --> 00:32:42,005
that may not be the right timing to

907
00:32:42,005 --> 00:32:42,505
introduce

908
00:32:43,365 --> 00:32:45,464
check ins Mhmm. As we're

909
00:32:45,919 --> 00:32:48,400
defining it today. However, there's a need for

910
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,380
truth and accountability

911
00:32:49,919 --> 00:32:51,380
and the insight.

912
00:32:51,759 --> 00:32:54,400
Sure. So if I'm thinking of couples that

913
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:55,140
I'm meeting

914
00:32:55,599 --> 00:32:56,980
shortly after discovery

915
00:32:57,359 --> 00:33:00,480
or a trigger disclosure and everything's hit the

916
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:00,980
fan,

917
00:33:01,484 --> 00:33:03,825
We're usually working in my practice

918
00:33:04,684 --> 00:33:07,244
three to six months really bearing down on

919
00:33:07,244 --> 00:33:09,505
preparing for an effective thorough disclosure.

920
00:33:10,125 --> 00:33:12,545
So when my couples are preparing for disclosure,

921
00:33:12,924 --> 00:33:15,539
they're most often not doing check ins. Because

922
00:33:15,539 --> 00:33:17,480
I actually think check ins can be risky

923
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:18,600
when

924
00:33:19,619 --> 00:33:21,480
we're wanting him to be honest.

925
00:33:21,940 --> 00:33:24,100
But if he's being honest about behavior she

926
00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:25,640
doesn't even know about yet

927
00:33:25,940 --> 00:33:27,799
or whole categories of behavior

928
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:30,075
Mhmm. Right? Many deceptions

929
00:33:32,634 --> 00:33:33,694
then becomes

930
00:33:34,075 --> 00:33:34,815
polluted. So I do think timing

931
00:33:35,914 --> 00:33:37,274
is really key. And I think this whole

932
00:33:37,274 --> 00:33:37,774
issue

933
00:33:38,554 --> 00:33:40,714
speaks to there's many different types of check

934
00:33:40,714 --> 00:33:43,054
ins and they have different purposes and functions

935
00:33:43,799 --> 00:33:44,620
after disclosure

936
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,320
opens up portals for couples to have very

937
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,700
different check ins. Mhmm.

938
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,640
Because truth's on the table, they have a

939
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,840
shared reality now. And through the preparing of

940
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:55,820
for a disclosure,

941
00:33:56,279 --> 00:33:59,015
he, I hope, if there's been good disclosure

942
00:33:59,015 --> 00:33:59,674
work done,

943
00:34:00,055 --> 00:34:03,174
has the insight about what's going on. Could

944
00:34:03,174 --> 00:34:05,255
I even expand that? I don't even necessarily

945
00:34:05,255 --> 00:34:07,914
think it's limited to just pre disclosure.

946
00:34:08,295 --> 00:34:11,140
I think it's just the guy just sucks

947
00:34:11,140 --> 00:34:13,780
at knowing what is going on with him

948
00:34:13,780 --> 00:34:16,420
for the first eight months. I mean, really

949
00:34:16,420 --> 00:34:19,460
just doesn't understand his compulsivity. And so I

950
00:34:19,460 --> 00:34:19,960
think

951
00:34:20,260 --> 00:34:23,059
that really degrades the check-in for two things.

952
00:34:23,059 --> 00:34:24,574
One, the guy's attitude

953
00:34:24,875 --> 00:34:25,934
during the check-in

954
00:34:26,474 --> 00:34:29,034
is poor because it's, oh, gosh. We have

955
00:34:29,034 --> 00:34:30,394
to do this whole thing because I got

956
00:34:30,394 --> 00:34:32,715
in trouble. Right? And so there's that whole

957
00:34:32,715 --> 00:34:34,094
dynamic. And then secondly,

958
00:34:34,474 --> 00:34:36,255
their check-in doesn't really

959
00:34:36,849 --> 00:34:38,849
do anything for the partner because it sucks.

960
00:34:38,849 --> 00:34:40,210
It's like, no, I didn't do any of

961
00:34:40,210 --> 00:34:41,750
that. I didn't do any of that.

962
00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:44,369
Oh, I made my phone call to my

963
00:34:44,369 --> 00:34:47,269
sponsor when that like, it's just this very

964
00:34:48,210 --> 00:34:48,710
robotic,

965
00:34:50,405 --> 00:34:50,905
shallow,

966
00:34:51,445 --> 00:34:53,684
not packed with any sort of substance. So

967
00:34:53,684 --> 00:34:54,344
to me,

968
00:34:54,724 --> 00:34:57,045
again, that's why I feel so passionately about

969
00:34:57,045 --> 00:34:59,925
this check-in thing is it's a hot topic

970
00:34:59,925 --> 00:35:02,049
in this field, no question about it. I

971
00:35:02,049 --> 00:35:03,889
think not doing it is not good because

972
00:35:03,889 --> 00:35:05,569
it doesn't build trust, but at the same

973
00:35:05,569 --> 00:35:07,489
time, I mean, Jill, I gotta be honest

974
00:35:07,489 --> 00:35:09,809
with you. Those check ins in those first

975
00:35:09,809 --> 00:35:12,529
eight months are just they just don't go

976
00:35:12,529 --> 00:35:14,849
well far more often than they go well,

977
00:35:14,849 --> 00:35:17,164
at least the clients who I know who

978
00:35:17,164 --> 00:35:18,844
don't see you. I can't speak it for

979
00:35:18,844 --> 00:35:20,925
your clients. But before we get off this

980
00:35:20,925 --> 00:35:23,085
topic, I just really want to empathize with

981
00:35:23,085 --> 00:35:23,905
everybody listening

982
00:35:24,525 --> 00:35:26,684
where they feel like the check ins were

983
00:35:26,684 --> 00:35:28,144
never effective and

984
00:35:28,510 --> 00:35:30,510
still aren't effective even to this day. Because

985
00:35:30,510 --> 00:35:32,190
I do think even when you get to

986
00:35:32,190 --> 00:35:33,970
the point where you can actually

987
00:35:34,349 --> 00:35:35,329
check-in effectively,

988
00:35:35,630 --> 00:35:36,750
I think there's a lot of harm that

989
00:35:36,750 --> 00:35:38,430
can be done in those first eight months

990
00:35:38,430 --> 00:35:39,809
of some crappy check ins.

991
00:35:40,110 --> 00:35:43,234
Sure. So I never want a check-in to

992
00:35:43,234 --> 00:35:44,135
be a checklist.

993
00:35:44,835 --> 00:35:47,154
This isn't about just checking a box and

994
00:35:47,154 --> 00:35:48,295
going through the motions.

995
00:35:48,755 --> 00:35:51,875
The whole point of a genuine check-in is

996
00:35:51,875 --> 00:35:53,894
I'm checking in with myself

997
00:35:54,674 --> 00:35:55,174
first.

998
00:35:56,170 --> 00:35:58,269
I can't share what I don't have.

999
00:35:58,730 --> 00:36:01,769
I can't share something embodied and meaningful if

1000
00:36:01,769 --> 00:36:02,510
I'm dissociated

1001
00:36:02,969 --> 00:36:03,469
and

1002
00:36:03,849 --> 00:36:05,309
completely not present.

1003
00:36:05,849 --> 00:36:07,150
I need to be present,

1004
00:36:07,449 --> 00:36:07,949
embodied,

1005
00:36:08,250 --> 00:36:10,989
and aware of my own internal process.

1006
00:36:11,644 --> 00:36:13,085
I have to be connected to my own

1007
00:36:13,085 --> 00:36:15,425
reality. And let's face it, in early recovery,

1008
00:36:16,204 --> 00:36:17,984
sometimes both people are

1009
00:36:18,605 --> 00:36:21,005
spinning so hard they're not connected to their

1010
00:36:21,005 --> 00:36:24,065
own. Yeah. And if we have anxiously attached

1011
00:36:24,125 --> 00:36:24,625
couples,

1012
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:28,900
if she's anxiously attached and he's avoidantly attached,

1013
00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:30,719
which I'm not saying that in a sexist

1014
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,099
way, the research shows

1015
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,460
most avoidantly attached people are male, most anxiously

1016
00:36:35,519 --> 00:36:36,819
attached people are female.

1017
00:36:37,359 --> 00:36:40,074
So if she's anxiously attached, she's gonna come

1018
00:36:40,074 --> 00:36:41,934
to a check-in very differently.

1019
00:36:42,394 --> 00:36:45,114
Mhmm. She's gonna be relying and depending on

1020
00:36:45,114 --> 00:36:47,675
him to make her feel better. Mhmm. Mhmm.

1021
00:36:47,675 --> 00:36:50,635
That's not healthy. That's just reinforcing a different

1022
00:36:50,635 --> 00:36:52,094
dynamic we don't want.

1023
00:36:52,555 --> 00:36:53,535
If he's avoidant,

1024
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,440
he's gonna be coming to that check-in in

1025
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,680
an effective way too for him and for

1026
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,240
her. Mhmm. I do agree with you. It's

1027
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:03,400
more Mine were very performative. I mean, I

1028
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,960
gotta be honest. I was not good. Mine

1029
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,505
were probably sixty forty. 40%

1030
00:37:08,505 --> 00:37:09,964
authentic, 60%

1031
00:37:10,264 --> 00:37:12,744
what does she wanna hear right now? I

1032
00:37:12,744 --> 00:37:14,664
even think to this day if she made

1033
00:37:14,664 --> 00:37:16,505
me do one of those like formal check

1034
00:37:16,505 --> 00:37:18,984
ins, I would try really, really hard not

1035
00:37:18,984 --> 00:37:19,724
to perform,

1036
00:37:20,025 --> 00:37:22,284
but the way that they're done, I just,

1037
00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:24,460
it's really hard for me to

1038
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:26,380
do it in a enthusiastic

1039
00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:28,199
present way. A lot of times I'm like,

1040
00:37:28,199 --> 00:37:30,039
oh, gosh, what's the objective of this? And

1041
00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:32,039
and I think that's just natural. You know,

1042
00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:34,599
humans, we want to please and do the

1043
00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:36,920
right thing. And so when we're presented with

1044
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:37,420
this

1045
00:37:37,925 --> 00:37:38,425
checklist,

1046
00:37:38,804 --> 00:37:39,784
there is this,

1047
00:37:40,085 --> 00:37:42,005
especially when I'm in trouble, and we're doing

1048
00:37:42,005 --> 00:37:44,724
the checklist because of my actions, there is

1049
00:37:44,724 --> 00:37:46,085
this thing of like, what does she want

1050
00:37:46,085 --> 00:37:47,125
to hear, and I'm just going to go

1051
00:37:47,125 --> 00:37:48,724
do that. And that was really a lot

1052
00:37:48,724 --> 00:37:50,280
of my check ins in the beginning. And

1053
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:51,480
And I think she felt that. I mean,

1054
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,159
my wife's not stupid. She knows the difference

1055
00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:54,780
between me being enthusiastically

1056
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,659
engaged and introspective and me

1057
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,300
just doing a check-in because she's making me

1058
00:38:00,519 --> 00:38:02,360
do a check-in. And so I think that

1059
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,724
again to your point, but it still begs

1060
00:38:04,724 --> 00:38:06,724
this huge question, which is what do we

1061
00:38:06,724 --> 00:38:08,664
do in those first eight months then?

1062
00:38:09,125 --> 00:38:10,644
Let's get back to that, though. Like, I

1063
00:38:10,644 --> 00:38:12,644
think that that's gonna have to be really

1064
00:38:12,644 --> 00:38:15,304
creatively thought through of how do we introduce

1065
00:38:15,605 --> 00:38:16,105
accountability.

1066
00:38:16,565 --> 00:38:17,065
Mhmm.

1067
00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:19,920
Because we're not gonna get around that. Yeah.

1068
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,140
If we don't have accountability

1069
00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:22,019
and

1070
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,800
somehow help the room to stop spinning, we've

1071
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,039
got nothing to work with. Yeah. 100%. She's

1072
00:38:27,039 --> 00:38:29,119
gonna be gone or he's gonna be gone

1073
00:38:29,119 --> 00:38:29,780
in addiction.

1074
00:38:31,034 --> 00:38:33,135
So there's different ways to build accountability,

1075
00:38:33,994 --> 00:38:36,394
and a direct face to face check-in may

1076
00:38:36,394 --> 00:38:37,775
not be it. Mhmm.

1077
00:38:38,074 --> 00:38:41,195
I believe there's ways for every couple to

1078
00:38:41,195 --> 00:38:43,054
figure out a way how do we

1079
00:38:43,434 --> 00:38:43,934
introduce

1080
00:38:44,619 --> 00:38:46,320
those baby steps of accountability

1081
00:38:46,940 --> 00:38:48,859
Mhmm. But in a way that's working for

1082
00:38:48,859 --> 00:38:51,260
us. There's a word we haven't brought up

1083
00:38:51,260 --> 00:38:52,320
yet or at least

1084
00:38:52,859 --> 00:38:54,859
highlighted, and I wanna do that now with

1085
00:38:54,859 --> 00:38:55,839
a big neon

1086
00:38:56,460 --> 00:38:58,400
highlighter. Mhmm. And that's attunement.

1087
00:38:59,875 --> 00:39:02,295
Part of what I'm going to say causes

1088
00:39:02,835 --> 00:39:05,394
what causes a lot of process addiction is

1089
00:39:05,394 --> 00:39:07,974
lack of attunement, lack of attunement in childhood.

1090
00:39:08,755 --> 00:39:11,154
And somewhere along the way, either with trauma,

1091
00:39:11,154 --> 00:39:13,394
because trauma gets us out of attunement in

1092
00:39:13,394 --> 00:39:14,614
our body and mind.

1093
00:39:15,050 --> 00:39:17,609
Right? We're turning to a process addiction of

1094
00:39:17,609 --> 00:39:18,349
some sort,

1095
00:39:18,730 --> 00:39:20,670
or we're getting out of our integrity

1096
00:39:21,690 --> 00:39:24,010
because of lack of attunement with something, with

1097
00:39:24,010 --> 00:39:26,349
values, with a belief system, relationally,

1098
00:39:27,210 --> 00:39:28,909
needs, whatever it may be.

1099
00:39:29,285 --> 00:39:31,785
So my vision for check ins

1100
00:39:32,244 --> 00:39:34,025
is that it's increasing attunement

1101
00:39:34,565 --> 00:39:35,785
first with self

1102
00:39:36,244 --> 00:39:37,545
and then with other.

1103
00:39:38,724 --> 00:39:41,545
So we may introduce individual check ins.

1104
00:39:42,164 --> 00:39:42,664
Mhmm.

1105
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,000
Okay. I want her and him to check-in

1106
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:45,739
with themselves

1107
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:46,700
first.

1108
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:48,860
What's going on with your body,

1109
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,099
your thoughts, your feelings,

1110
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:52,619
your behavior?

1111
00:39:53,079 --> 00:39:55,719
What's going on with your healing work? Maybe

1112
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:56,780
they check-in individually

1113
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:58,140
and get grounded.

1114
00:39:59,344 --> 00:40:02,644
And I've had couples use logs, written logs.

1115
00:40:02,944 --> 00:40:05,824
I've had couples use an email. They created

1116
00:40:05,824 --> 00:40:07,744
an email account and they just, like, would

1117
00:40:07,744 --> 00:40:09,585
go back and forth within that. Really, the

1118
00:40:09,585 --> 00:40:12,484
sky's the limit. But some contained

1119
00:40:12,784 --> 00:40:13,284
way

1120
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:14,880
that there's accountability

1121
00:40:15,179 --> 00:40:16,780
and they both know what each of them

1122
00:40:16,780 --> 00:40:19,500
are working on. But we can acknowledge, hey,

1123
00:40:19,500 --> 00:40:22,619
this is raw. This is brutally hard. We're

1124
00:40:22,619 --> 00:40:24,699
not in a place yet to be as

1125
00:40:24,699 --> 00:40:26,639
relational as we desire or need,

1126
00:40:27,005 --> 00:40:29,164
but we both deserve the truth and support

1127
00:40:29,164 --> 00:40:29,985
and respect.

1128
00:40:30,684 --> 00:40:32,625
Yeah. If two people are dysregulated

1129
00:40:33,005 --> 00:40:35,105
or even one of them is not attuned,

1130
00:40:35,565 --> 00:40:38,304
check ins are going to be enormously challenging.

1131
00:40:39,170 --> 00:40:40,610
So that's where I say, hey. We may

1132
00:40:40,610 --> 00:40:42,369
need more prep. We may need to focus

1133
00:40:42,369 --> 00:40:44,610
on different things and creatively come up with

1134
00:40:44,610 --> 00:40:46,710
a different way of having accountability

1135
00:40:47,170 --> 00:40:47,829
be present.

1136
00:40:48,369 --> 00:40:50,309
And the more relational check-in

1137
00:40:50,690 --> 00:40:52,309
may need to be introduced later.

1138
00:40:52,744 --> 00:40:54,605
And often I see check ins

1139
00:40:54,905 --> 00:40:57,804
introduced and get more traction after disclosure.

1140
00:40:58,184 --> 00:41:01,465
Mhmm. It's a After disclosure, there's some sobriety

1141
00:41:01,465 --> 00:41:03,945
on board. The blue generally, the bleeding has

1142
00:41:03,945 --> 00:41:04,925
stopped. Mhmm.

1143
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,639
They're both now in shared reality of the

1144
00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:08,139
truth,

1145
00:41:08,839 --> 00:41:11,639
and there's support and some recovery plan in

1146
00:41:11,639 --> 00:41:13,980
the mix. Yeah. It's the plan.

1147
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:15,819
So the reason

1148
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,599
in my program, what I do with men

1149
00:41:18,599 --> 00:41:21,085
pretty dang early is and I don't know

1150
00:41:21,085 --> 00:41:22,545
where I came up with this,

1151
00:41:23,405 --> 00:41:25,405
but to me, you can't there's a saying

1152
00:41:25,405 --> 00:41:27,405
and that I say in my program, it's

1153
00:41:27,405 --> 00:41:29,085
a role one of my Roland isms, you

1154
00:41:29,085 --> 00:41:31,105
can't recover unless you know what you're recovering

1155
00:41:31,164 --> 00:41:34,144
from. And so very early in the process,

1156
00:41:34,630 --> 00:41:36,869
that's really the huge emphasis. You know, I

1157
00:41:36,869 --> 00:41:39,190
call my program a recovery program, not a

1158
00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:40,170
sobriety program.

1159
00:41:40,469 --> 00:41:43,670
We don't really sobriety, sobriety practices and sobriety.

1160
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:46,070
That's not really the emphasis of my program.

1161
00:41:46,070 --> 00:41:47,909
If you need that, go get that from

1162
00:41:47,909 --> 00:41:49,715
somebody else. That's not really, to me, I

1163
00:41:49,715 --> 00:41:52,215
don't have time to do both because recovery,

1164
00:41:52,594 --> 00:41:54,515
we barely have enough time to do all

1165
00:41:54,515 --> 00:41:56,195
the recovery stuff we need to do to

1166
00:41:56,195 --> 00:41:58,675
add in all this sobriety stuff. We just

1167
00:41:58,835 --> 00:42:00,195
I had to pick one or the other.

1168
00:42:00,195 --> 00:42:01,875
And so my group's a recovery group. But

1169
00:42:01,875 --> 00:42:03,574
one of the big things we do is,

1170
00:42:03,860 --> 00:42:06,199
to me, where I find

1171
00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:08,760
that the relationship really gets into

1172
00:42:09,860 --> 00:42:12,760
a healthier place, I guess, from a transparency

1173
00:42:13,059 --> 00:42:13,559
communication

1174
00:42:13,940 --> 00:42:15,559
check-in standpoint is,

1175
00:42:16,019 --> 00:42:17,320
when the guy understands

1176
00:42:17,699 --> 00:42:18,920
his process addiction,

1177
00:42:19,695 --> 00:42:21,855
what caused it, the good things about the

1178
00:42:21,855 --> 00:42:23,775
processes and why he latched on to him,

1179
00:42:23,775 --> 00:42:25,614
the bad things about the processes and the

1180
00:42:25,614 --> 00:42:27,635
consequences that can come with it, and

1181
00:42:28,335 --> 00:42:29,474
what does psychology

1182
00:42:29,934 --> 00:42:33,614
say about how somebody navigates this, right? What

1183
00:42:33,614 --> 00:42:34,114
modalities

1184
00:42:34,494 --> 00:42:34,994
exist

1185
00:42:35,390 --> 00:42:37,150
for this? And I think really you need

1186
00:42:37,150 --> 00:42:38,590
to write that, in my opinion, you need

1187
00:42:38,590 --> 00:42:41,390
to write that down for everything. If you

1188
00:42:41,390 --> 00:42:42,610
don't trust others,

1189
00:42:42,910 --> 00:42:45,010
that needs to have its own page of

1190
00:42:45,070 --> 00:42:47,390
what's the ins and outs of distrust, right?

1191
00:42:47,390 --> 00:42:48,910
Where did this come from? What problems does

1192
00:42:48,910 --> 00:42:50,769
this cause? And what am I doing

1193
00:42:51,234 --> 00:42:52,994
to combat it? And then you go to

1194
00:42:52,994 --> 00:42:54,614
your superiority complex.

1195
00:42:54,914 --> 00:42:56,675
What am I doing in that category? And

1196
00:42:56,675 --> 00:42:57,795
so on and so on and so on.

1197
00:42:57,795 --> 00:42:59,894
So, you know, my control, I wanna control

1198
00:43:00,114 --> 00:43:01,875
things. Right? So what are you doing about

1199
00:43:01,875 --> 00:43:03,929
that? But I think to me, there's a

1200
00:43:03,929 --> 00:43:05,690
lot of safety when you can connect the

1201
00:43:05,690 --> 00:43:07,449
dots as to how all of those things

1202
00:43:07,449 --> 00:43:09,449
led to your acting out, and you can

1203
00:43:09,449 --> 00:43:11,530
show, hey, here's my understanding of all of

1204
00:43:11,530 --> 00:43:13,369
this, and here's what I'm doing to change

1205
00:43:13,369 --> 00:43:16,315
it. If it's not that crystal clear, I

1206
00:43:16,315 --> 00:43:18,574
think you're losing a lot of the ammunition

1207
00:43:18,715 --> 00:43:21,034
that you have to have a really functional

1208
00:43:21,034 --> 00:43:22,715
safe check-in because at least, you know, again,

1209
00:43:22,715 --> 00:43:25,114
I can only speak to my experience and

1210
00:43:25,114 --> 00:43:26,715
the clients I've seen, but really what I

1211
00:43:26,715 --> 00:43:29,070
see the partners asking is, how do I

1212
00:43:29,070 --> 00:43:30,989
know this isn't gonna happen again? And how

1213
00:43:30,989 --> 00:43:32,289
do I know that you

1214
00:43:32,670 --> 00:43:34,670
know how this happened and that you know

1215
00:43:34,670 --> 00:43:36,269
how to prevent it from happening? And to

1216
00:43:36,269 --> 00:43:37,950
me, I don't see a lot of the

1217
00:43:37,950 --> 00:43:39,809
traditional check ins really speaking

1218
00:43:40,190 --> 00:43:40,690
to

1219
00:43:41,255 --> 00:43:43,574
that as much as when you know what

1220
00:43:43,574 --> 00:43:45,735
you're working on, you can speak to it

1221
00:43:45,735 --> 00:43:47,335
quite clearly. Is that did that make sense

1222
00:43:47,335 --> 00:43:48,855
there, Jill? It does. I mean, I I

1223
00:43:48,855 --> 00:43:51,255
mean, I think that's intuitive too. I mean,

1224
00:43:51,255 --> 00:43:52,635
if someone has a degree

1225
00:43:53,269 --> 00:43:54,570
in fitness kinesiology,

1226
00:43:55,510 --> 00:43:57,190
of course, you're gonna be better equipped to

1227
00:43:57,190 --> 00:43:58,949
come up with a fitness plan and talk

1228
00:43:58,949 --> 00:44:01,109
about that, right, with someone. But what do

1229
00:44:01,109 --> 00:44:03,109
you do when you're a freshman in that

1230
00:44:03,109 --> 00:44:03,609
program?

1231
00:44:04,070 --> 00:44:06,230
Mhmm. Yes. Right? Like and so when we're

1232
00:44:06,230 --> 00:44:07,609
freshmen and fresh women

1233
00:44:08,085 --> 00:44:09,065
in recovery,

1234
00:44:09,764 --> 00:44:12,585
it may be what's the one thing

1235
00:44:12,965 --> 00:44:15,605
that you most need to know today or

1236
00:44:15,605 --> 00:44:16,984
this week? Mhmm.

1237
00:44:17,605 --> 00:44:20,264
And if people aren't well grounded,

1238
00:44:20,565 --> 00:44:23,280
it may be once a week. What's one

1239
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,199
thing you most need to know about where

1240
00:44:25,199 --> 00:44:28,320
your partner's at? Mhmm. Mhmm. So we contain

1241
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,739
it. Yeah. We limit it.

1242
00:44:31,519 --> 00:44:33,360
And we may have to say and teach

1243
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,239
both people, look, we're gonna grow into this

1244
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:36,739
process.

1245
00:44:37,585 --> 00:44:39,744
Right? And so we're just gonna start with

1246
00:44:39,744 --> 00:44:42,144
what's the most important thing you need to

1247
00:44:42,144 --> 00:44:44,545
know to or this week. I like that.

1248
00:44:44,545 --> 00:44:47,184
And after disclosure, when they're both in shared

1249
00:44:47,184 --> 00:44:49,505
reality, then we can maybe take on a

1250
00:44:49,505 --> 00:44:50,405
more substantial

1251
00:44:51,019 --> 00:44:53,420
four to five minute check-in, both of us.

1252
00:44:53,420 --> 00:44:54,960
But I think it needs

1253
00:44:55,420 --> 00:44:57,980
to grow and adapt with the couple. Otherwise,

1254
00:44:57,980 --> 00:44:59,980
we're defeating the point of learning how to

1255
00:44:59,980 --> 00:45:01,500
be a Yeah. Yeah. They need to be

1256
00:45:01,539 --> 00:45:02,460
I think the conclusion

1257
00:45:02,780 --> 00:45:04,699
yeah. The running theme of all of our

1258
00:45:04,699 --> 00:45:05,760
stuff today is

1259
00:45:06,295 --> 00:45:08,295
we're not saying that they don't need to

1260
00:45:08,295 --> 00:45:10,534
be done, but we're also saying make sure

1261
00:45:10,534 --> 00:45:12,855
they're doing what they're designed to do. I

1262
00:45:12,855 --> 00:45:15,275
mean, don't just do one to do one,

1263
00:45:15,335 --> 00:45:16,074
ask yourself,

1264
00:45:16,454 --> 00:45:18,135
you know, on both sides as the betrayed

1265
00:45:18,135 --> 00:45:21,190
partner, is this working towards something that will

1266
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:23,849
actually work? And as the cheating partner,

1267
00:45:24,309 --> 00:45:26,150
do I feel grounded doing it in this

1268
00:45:26,150 --> 00:45:27,829
way? And is there a way that would

1269
00:45:27,829 --> 00:45:29,429
would feel better? But I think both people

1270
00:45:29,429 --> 00:45:30,250
need to feel

1271
00:45:30,630 --> 00:45:32,565
safe speaking. Because one thing I think that

1272
00:45:32,565 --> 00:45:35,284
doesn't happen enough in the first eight months

1273
00:45:35,284 --> 00:45:37,465
is you have the right to advocate

1274
00:45:37,925 --> 00:45:39,144
tastefully for

1275
00:45:39,764 --> 00:45:42,085
your recovery. And just because you're a cheater

1276
00:45:42,085 --> 00:45:43,605
doesn't mean you have to sit back and

1277
00:45:43,605 --> 00:45:45,429
do everything that she tells you to do.

1278
00:45:45,429 --> 00:45:46,949
And, you know, you have your right to

1279
00:45:46,949 --> 00:45:49,590
say, hey. I really don't feel grounded when

1280
00:45:49,590 --> 00:45:50,949
we do check ins in this way. I

1281
00:45:50,949 --> 00:45:52,070
was curious if we could do in the

1282
00:45:52,070 --> 00:45:53,750
morning. You guys have that right to make

1283
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:55,910
those requests. You can't say, I I hate

1284
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:57,525
check ins, and I don't wanna do them.

1285
00:45:57,684 --> 00:45:59,764
Correct. But right? Yeah. Advocate what will be

1286
00:45:59,764 --> 00:46:02,164
an alternative. Correct. Correct. Yeah. But you I

1287
00:46:02,164 --> 00:46:04,244
wish guys would speak up for themselves more

1288
00:46:04,244 --> 00:46:06,344
because I see guys really check out,

1289
00:46:06,804 --> 00:46:08,644
especially after, like, a year or two of

1290
00:46:08,644 --> 00:46:10,025
going through this, and

1291
00:46:10,369 --> 00:46:12,210
then they get into some dangerous territory where

1292
00:46:12,210 --> 00:46:15,410
it doesn't feel uniting. It feels military, you

1293
00:46:15,410 --> 00:46:18,050
know, it feels robotic, it feels very dividing,

1294
00:46:18,050 --> 00:46:20,130
it's it's there's a lot of dread. And

1295
00:46:20,130 --> 00:46:22,390
so what I wanted to conclude with was,

1296
00:46:23,155 --> 00:46:25,235
what do they do? So people are listening

1297
00:46:25,235 --> 00:46:27,315
to this. How do we course correct? How

1298
00:46:27,315 --> 00:46:29,095
do we create an effective

1299
00:46:29,715 --> 00:46:31,875
check-in? How do we, you know, what's this

1300
00:46:31,875 --> 00:46:33,795
process? I'll go first and then you I'd

1301
00:46:33,795 --> 00:46:35,555
like you to finish and close with it.

1302
00:46:35,555 --> 00:46:37,394
But, you know, I think my advice to

1303
00:46:37,394 --> 00:46:37,894
everyone

1304
00:46:38,500 --> 00:46:39,239
would be,

1305
00:46:39,619 --> 00:46:41,559
especially after listening to this podcast,

1306
00:46:42,260 --> 00:46:44,579
just knowing that early on, it's gonna be

1307
00:46:44,579 --> 00:46:46,099
harder. There's a lot of there's a lot

1308
00:46:46,099 --> 00:46:48,340
of emotions, there's a lack of just knowledge

1309
00:46:48,340 --> 00:46:49,640
and awareness around

1310
00:46:49,940 --> 00:46:52,280
what it is that you personally and individually

1311
00:46:52,420 --> 00:46:54,224
are gonna need to do that's unique to

1312
00:46:54,224 --> 00:46:57,285
you and maybe not like everyone else. But

1313
00:46:57,345 --> 00:46:59,125
the thing that I would advise is

1314
00:46:59,905 --> 00:47:01,204
just for both partners,

1315
00:47:01,585 --> 00:47:05,045
remember what we're doing. We're not trying to

1316
00:47:05,425 --> 00:47:06,244
find out

1317
00:47:07,030 --> 00:47:08,950
what he did to you that day. That's

1318
00:47:08,950 --> 00:47:10,890
not necessarily the only objective.

1319
00:47:11,190 --> 00:47:13,030
And I would say too, on the partner's

1320
00:47:13,030 --> 00:47:14,390
first day, I have to do it. It's

1321
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:15,210
not just

1322
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:18,630
what did you do today. Right? I think

1323
00:47:18,630 --> 00:47:20,390
the thing that where my wife and I

1324
00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:22,025
got, I think we introduced it, we did

1325
00:47:22,025 --> 00:47:23,785
it for the first time probably right around

1326
00:47:23,785 --> 00:47:25,805
two years. We went to a coffee shop,

1327
00:47:26,105 --> 00:47:27,785
and it was for that reason, we went

1328
00:47:27,785 --> 00:47:29,625
to the coffee shop to do this, and

1329
00:47:29,625 --> 00:47:31,164
we sat down and it was,

1330
00:47:31,545 --> 00:47:34,179
okay, hey, what are the six, seven, eight

1331
00:47:34,179 --> 00:47:34,679
things

1332
00:47:35,219 --> 00:47:35,960
in order

1333
00:47:36,260 --> 00:47:37,480
of what you're prioritizing

1334
00:47:38,179 --> 00:47:40,660
about your psychology and what you want to

1335
00:47:40,660 --> 00:47:43,300
change? And then of the things that are

1336
00:47:43,300 --> 00:47:44,900
working, what are working and of the things

1337
00:47:44,900 --> 00:47:46,039
that you don't have,

1338
00:47:46,385 --> 00:47:48,065
what are your plans to get some of

1339
00:47:48,065 --> 00:47:50,304
that? Right? Do you have men to connect

1340
00:47:50,304 --> 00:47:52,784
with who you really enjoy recovering with? And

1341
00:47:52,784 --> 00:47:54,144
then if you don't, okay, what are your

1342
00:47:54,144 --> 00:47:55,824
plans to find some of those men? But

1343
00:47:55,824 --> 00:47:57,925
I think that was the first check-in

1344
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,079
that really felt good. I mean, we it

1345
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:02,239
was like a business planning session where we

1346
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,320
sat down and it was, hey, here are

1347
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,640
the things that I've been led to believe

1348
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,099
that have caused all of this.

1349
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,000
And here are the things that I'm doing

1350
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:11,519
right now that are for that. And here's

1351
00:48:11,519 --> 00:48:13,119
the things that I don't have yet. I

1352
00:48:13,119 --> 00:48:15,054
know I need more of this, this, and

1353
00:48:15,054 --> 00:48:16,614
this. I'm having a hard time finding that,

1354
00:48:16,614 --> 00:48:18,295
but I'm gonna keep trying. Right? And then

1355
00:48:18,295 --> 00:48:19,574
tell her how you're gonna try, and then

1356
00:48:19,574 --> 00:48:21,094
vice versa. I think, you know, my wife

1357
00:48:21,094 --> 00:48:22,554
did the same thing. Hers was,

1358
00:48:22,934 --> 00:48:24,934
hey. I keep doing this, and I need

1359
00:48:24,934 --> 00:48:26,454
to stop. And her she had her list

1360
00:48:26,454 --> 00:48:28,130
of eight things. Here are the things I'm

1361
00:48:28,130 --> 00:48:29,329
doing well, and here are the things that

1362
00:48:29,329 --> 00:48:30,610
I know I need to do that I'm

1363
00:48:30,610 --> 00:48:32,469
not doing as often as I should. But

1364
00:48:32,530 --> 00:48:35,190
that was the first check-in that really felt

1365
00:48:35,890 --> 00:48:38,070
safe, because I was volunteering.

1366
00:48:39,250 --> 00:48:41,170
It was agreed what we were gonna present,

1367
00:48:41,170 --> 00:48:41,989
but I was

1368
00:48:42,565 --> 00:48:43,065
volunteering

1369
00:48:43,525 --> 00:48:45,605
the plan. And it just felt very right

1370
00:48:45,605 --> 00:48:48,005
for me and my personality. I didn't mind

1371
00:48:48,005 --> 00:48:49,785
owning up to what I need to do.

1372
00:48:50,005 --> 00:48:52,005
But owning up to it in that way

1373
00:48:52,005 --> 00:48:52,824
felt very

1374
00:48:53,525 --> 00:48:56,079
safe for me. So I guess my point

1375
00:48:56,079 --> 00:48:58,319
is, guys and gals listening to this, do

1376
00:48:58,319 --> 00:49:00,159
not copy what I just said, because again,

1377
00:49:00,159 --> 00:49:00,900
now you're

1378
00:49:01,199 --> 00:49:03,199
right back in the same problem. What I'm

1379
00:49:03,199 --> 00:49:05,760
trying to get across there was, we came

1380
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,559
up with a plan that I really, really

1381
00:49:08,559 --> 00:49:09,059
enjoyed,

1382
00:49:09,465 --> 00:49:11,224
that I thought was effective. Now here's the

1383
00:49:11,224 --> 00:49:13,785
problem is, what's my preference? My preference is

1384
00:49:13,785 --> 00:49:16,125
to do that every other month or quarterly.

1385
00:49:16,505 --> 00:49:18,664
I think my wife would like to see

1386
00:49:18,664 --> 00:49:21,625
that frequency increase. The problem is when we

1387
00:49:21,625 --> 00:49:23,545
increase it, I don't see a lot of

1388
00:49:23,545 --> 00:49:24,045
the

1389
00:49:24,530 --> 00:49:27,329
at bats and the experience with it to

1390
00:49:27,329 --> 00:49:29,809
be able to give a good update. So

1391
00:49:29,809 --> 00:49:32,130
anyways, my point is, it's not black and

1392
00:49:32,130 --> 00:49:34,929
white. There's a bunch of gray in this,

1393
00:49:34,929 --> 00:49:37,089
but I think it's an ever evolving dialogue.

1394
00:49:37,089 --> 00:49:39,109
And I would say keep trying because

1395
00:49:39,454 --> 00:49:41,454
not doing it is not a great option.

1396
00:49:41,454 --> 00:49:42,835
I can tell you that certainty.

1397
00:49:43,135 --> 00:49:44,894
What would you say, Joe? And what you're

1398
00:49:44,894 --> 00:49:47,215
describing there, and I don't wanna impose because

1399
00:49:47,215 --> 00:49:48,675
maybe this maybe I'm misunderstanding,

1400
00:49:49,295 --> 00:49:51,215
you know, that kind of overview of a

1401
00:49:51,215 --> 00:49:52,355
recovery plan,

1402
00:49:52,690 --> 00:49:55,730
that's not necessarily a check-in either. Right? Well,

1403
00:49:55,730 --> 00:49:58,050
it's not. It's a recovery plan. Right? Mhmm.

1404
00:49:58,050 --> 00:50:00,449
Right? Of to share that, yeah, that may

1405
00:50:00,449 --> 00:50:01,190
be quarterly.

1406
00:50:01,650 --> 00:50:04,449
But what's meaningful connection? Like, what do we

1407
00:50:04,449 --> 00:50:04,949
share

1408
00:50:05,494 --> 00:50:08,135
with each other on a more regular basis

1409
00:50:08,135 --> 00:50:10,635
and a frequency that we've both agreed to

1410
00:50:10,855 --> 00:50:13,094
where we actually leave feeling like I know

1411
00:50:13,094 --> 00:50:15,414
something about my partner or I feel connected

1412
00:50:15,414 --> 00:50:17,335
to them in this. Right? That's gonna be

1413
00:50:17,335 --> 00:50:18,954
a different set of information.

1414
00:50:19,829 --> 00:50:20,710
And Yes. Correct. You know, I know that

1415
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:22,550
many of your clients in those listening are

1416
00:50:22,550 --> 00:50:24,730
are very successful business people.

1417
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:26,470
And so I would say, you know, when

1418
00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:27,530
they started businesses,

1419
00:50:27,989 --> 00:50:30,390
did they forego all board meetings because the

1420
00:50:30,390 --> 00:50:32,470
business was young or messy or they were

1421
00:50:32,470 --> 00:50:34,974
still trying to secure funding? The answer would

1422
00:50:34,974 --> 00:50:37,215
be no. Right? We still have those, but

1423
00:50:37,215 --> 00:50:39,695
they they adapt and change over time. As

1424
00:50:39,695 --> 00:50:42,494
the business grows, as we're more successful or

1425
00:50:42,494 --> 00:50:44,594
we have different departments or more staff,

1426
00:50:44,894 --> 00:50:47,375
you know, they're modified accordingly. And so I'd

1427
00:50:47,375 --> 00:50:49,554
say it's the same. We want attunement.

1428
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:51,059
We want it tailored

1429
00:50:51,679 --> 00:50:53,940
to what's real and authentic for a couple.

1430
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:56,960
We want that to be a point of

1431
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:57,460
connection

1432
00:50:58,559 --> 00:51:01,940
that's meeting them where they're at. And sometimes

1433
00:51:02,159 --> 00:51:03,219
it's saying

1434
00:51:03,599 --> 00:51:06,295
it's premature for us to do this. We

1435
00:51:06,295 --> 00:51:08,554
need a different kind of check-in with ourselves

1436
00:51:08,614 --> 00:51:11,175
or with our supports and grow into this.

1437
00:51:11,175 --> 00:51:13,414
Yeah. One thing that we've not touched on,

1438
00:51:13,414 --> 00:51:15,974
we've talked more of, like, the discomfort for

1439
00:51:15,974 --> 00:51:18,054
him or, like, what what's not working for

1440
00:51:18,054 --> 00:51:20,360
him. One thing I really see not working

1441
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,680
for her is this is the number one

1442
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,420
thing I hear the partner, the betrayed adult

1443
00:51:25,559 --> 00:51:27,559
say is, what is the point of a

1444
00:51:27,559 --> 00:51:29,880
check-in when I can't trust one thing coming

1445
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:30,460
up? Yeah.

1446
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,715
Yeah. What is the point of that? And

1447
00:51:32,715 --> 00:51:34,315
they they really get upset with me because

1448
00:51:34,315 --> 00:51:36,494
I'm like, you're not doing check ins.

1449
00:51:37,114 --> 00:51:38,575
That's not the point of a check-in.

1450
00:51:39,114 --> 00:51:41,114
You keep doing that, and I wanna be

1451
00:51:41,114 --> 00:51:43,195
careful. I'm not saying for people to repeatedly

1452
00:51:43,195 --> 00:51:46,235
put themselves in an abusive or ongoing train

1453
00:51:46,235 --> 00:51:46,735
situation.

1454
00:51:47,349 --> 00:51:49,429
But I I will challenge my clients of,

1455
00:51:49,429 --> 00:51:51,989
like, okay. You don't trust anything coming out

1456
00:51:51,989 --> 00:51:54,389
of his mouth. What are you doing about

1457
00:51:54,389 --> 00:51:57,109
that? Yeah. Mhmm. What are the requests you're

1458
00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:59,429
making, or what is the truth you're longing

1459
00:51:59,429 --> 00:52:01,784
for that you're not getting? Yeah. Okay. When

1460
00:52:01,784 --> 00:52:04,264
we identify that, how else are you asking

1461
00:52:04,264 --> 00:52:06,025
for that, and when are you asking for

1462
00:52:06,025 --> 00:52:06,525
that?

1463
00:52:06,824 --> 00:52:09,144
So I don't let my clients just like

1464
00:52:09,144 --> 00:52:10,905
you're saying, just because you don't like it

1465
00:52:10,905 --> 00:52:13,224
or it's uncomfortable, we don't do it. For

1466
00:52:13,224 --> 00:52:15,369
her too of like, okay, we've got a

1467
00:52:15,369 --> 00:52:17,050
bigger issue at hand. If you don't believe

1468
00:52:17,050 --> 00:52:18,590
a word coming out of his mouth,

1469
00:52:18,969 --> 00:52:21,150
then why are you in relationship with him?

1470
00:52:21,929 --> 00:52:24,090
What are you doing about that? What are

1471
00:52:24,090 --> 00:52:25,530
your thoughts? Just like you said, hey, I

1472
00:52:25,530 --> 00:52:27,210
had to come up with something that I

1473
00:52:27,210 --> 00:52:30,125
felt engaged and connected with for her

1474
00:52:30,425 --> 00:52:32,585
too. What are the right questions? Sometimes we're

1475
00:52:32,585 --> 00:52:34,045
not asking the right questions.

1476
00:52:34,905 --> 00:52:37,704
And I really do believe quality questions linger.

1477
00:52:37,704 --> 00:52:39,704
So if if a question is falling flat

1478
00:52:39,704 --> 00:52:42,344
or it's just creating more problem than than

1479
00:52:42,344 --> 00:52:42,844
not,

1480
00:52:43,230 --> 00:52:44,670
then we may not be asking the right

1481
00:52:44,670 --> 00:52:45,170
questions.

1482
00:52:45,630 --> 00:52:48,349
Mhmm. I challenge my clients. Okay. Are you

1483
00:52:48,349 --> 00:52:50,670
asking the right questions? Are you attuned to

1484
00:52:50,670 --> 00:52:52,670
the information that will even be helpful for

1485
00:52:52,670 --> 00:52:54,909
you? Sometimes women will say, I want everything.

1486
00:52:54,909 --> 00:52:56,590
I wanna know every trigger he's had this

1487
00:52:56,590 --> 00:52:57,090
week.

1488
00:52:57,844 --> 00:53:00,264
Okay. What will you gain from that? Mhmm.

1489
00:53:00,324 --> 00:53:02,724
Is that really what's most helpful for you?

1490
00:53:02,724 --> 00:53:04,565
Do you really wanna go into the sausage

1491
00:53:04,565 --> 00:53:05,065
factory?

1492
00:53:05,444 --> 00:53:07,284
Really? I'm glad you brought that up. I

1493
00:53:07,284 --> 00:53:08,885
wasn't gonna bring it up, and I was

1494
00:53:08,885 --> 00:53:10,724
just gonna close the podcast, but I do

1495
00:53:10,724 --> 00:53:12,244
wanna bring that up now that you've broached

1496
00:53:12,244 --> 00:53:13,640
it. One of my questions I had written

1497
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,820
down was, and this was something that drove

1498
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:16,700
me

1499
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,059
crazy. I could have jumped out of

1500
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,079
a eight story floor building. It drove me

1501
00:53:23,079 --> 00:53:25,720
nuts. I mean, I'm serious. It drove me

1502
00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:29,085
crazy, Jill. And that is this gray

1503
00:53:29,625 --> 00:53:30,364
and ambiguous

1504
00:53:31,224 --> 00:53:33,324
and this is common. She wanted to know

1505
00:53:33,704 --> 00:53:34,204
everything

1506
00:53:34,585 --> 00:53:36,905
was what she basically said, right? Well, I

1507
00:53:36,905 --> 00:53:39,465
find it very stressful for the guys because

1508
00:53:39,465 --> 00:53:41,200
it's like, oh my gosh, why do I

1509
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,019
have to check-in? Right? Because I saw that

1510
00:53:44,079 --> 00:53:46,079
gal and I did look at her for

1511
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:47,920
a fourth time. Do I have to tell

1512
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:49,360
her that? That I looked at her at

1513
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,440
the gym four times? If I asked my

1514
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,440
wife, my wife would say she wouldn't say

1515
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:55,119
yes anymore. But I think back in the

1516
00:53:55,119 --> 00:53:57,335
day, she would say, yeah, if you looked

1517
00:53:57,554 --> 00:53:59,875
a fourth time and you told yourself not

1518
00:53:59,875 --> 00:54:01,875
to look after the first, I wanna know.

1519
00:54:01,875 --> 00:54:03,635
And so there was to me, she wanted

1520
00:54:03,635 --> 00:54:06,514
to know everything. Hey, if I watch this

1521
00:54:06,514 --> 00:54:08,675
show on TV and I didn't fast forward

1522
00:54:08,675 --> 00:54:10,835
through the nudity piece, she wanted to know,

1523
00:54:10,835 --> 00:54:12,500
you know, the impression that I got in

1524
00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:14,659
the beginning was, yeah, anything and everything I

1525
00:54:14,659 --> 00:54:16,280
wanna know. Well, the problem was,

1526
00:54:16,659 --> 00:54:17,719
we live in an insanely

1527
00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:22,420
sexual world. And so unless you're really just

1528
00:54:22,420 --> 00:54:24,824
kind of avoiding the world, not having a

1529
00:54:24,905 --> 00:54:27,464
smartphone, not watching television and being very careful

1530
00:54:27,464 --> 00:54:29,144
where you go in public. You know, there's

1531
00:54:29,144 --> 00:54:30,125
just a lot of

1532
00:54:30,425 --> 00:54:32,905
stuff happening that could fall into that category.

1533
00:54:32,905 --> 00:54:35,704
And that stressed me out like crazy, Jill,

1534
00:54:35,704 --> 00:54:37,704
because it was just like, I felt almost

1535
00:54:37,704 --> 00:54:39,644
as if I needed to find

1536
00:54:40,130 --> 00:54:41,890
there's so much sexual stuff going on all

1537
00:54:41,890 --> 00:54:43,750
the time. I felt like with every check-in,

1538
00:54:44,210 --> 00:54:46,929
I had to like hunt for all of

1539
00:54:46,929 --> 00:54:49,010
the potentially sexual stuff that happened and it

1540
00:54:49,010 --> 00:54:51,329
just it drove me nuts because it didn't

1541
00:54:51,329 --> 00:54:51,829
reflect

1542
00:54:52,734 --> 00:54:55,375
really where I was. So I hated checking

1543
00:54:55,375 --> 00:54:57,215
it in because I was like, oh, well,

1544
00:54:57,215 --> 00:54:59,474
I saw this one thing on social media.

1545
00:54:59,695 --> 00:55:01,934
And I looked at it before I scrolled

1546
00:55:01,934 --> 00:55:04,655
past it. And I hated checking that in

1547
00:55:04,655 --> 00:55:06,655
because it made it sound like I was

1548
00:55:06,655 --> 00:55:09,079
slipping or it, but I wasn't. And so

1549
00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:10,760
it was so annoying for me to check

1550
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,680
it in because her conclusion was, Oh, see,

1551
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,000
you're still an addict. And so I stopped

1552
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:16,920
wanting to tell her anything because it's like,

1553
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:18,680
No, I'm not though. Like, I'm trying to

1554
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:20,845
tell you this stuff because you've asked me

1555
00:55:20,845 --> 00:55:22,144
to watch it carefully.

1556
00:55:22,525 --> 00:55:24,525
But the perception was, oh, see, you're still

1557
00:55:24,525 --> 00:55:26,125
an addict. I know I can't trust you.

1558
00:55:26,125 --> 00:55:27,885
And so it's so frustrating. I'm trying to

1559
00:55:27,885 --> 00:55:29,905
be trustworthy, but it's being weaponized

1560
00:55:30,364 --> 00:55:32,364
and used against me every time that I

1561
00:55:32,364 --> 00:55:34,650
do check something in. Well, at first, I'm

1562
00:55:34,650 --> 00:55:36,409
glad you didn't jump out of the story

1563
00:55:36,409 --> 00:55:38,989
building. You know? But and I can validate

1564
00:55:39,050 --> 00:55:40,969
why that's maddening. At the same time, I

1565
00:55:40,969 --> 00:55:43,789
can validate why she wants that information. 100%.

1566
00:55:43,849 --> 00:55:46,329
She was in the dark likely, right, before

1567
00:55:46,329 --> 00:55:48,515
this came to light. She had no idea

1568
00:55:48,515 --> 00:55:50,355
that there was the social media stuff, the

1569
00:55:50,355 --> 00:55:52,535
movie stuff, the gal at the gym

1570
00:55:52,835 --> 00:55:54,675
stuff. So it's it's abrupt and it's a

1571
00:55:54,675 --> 00:55:56,755
lot. It's like holy smokes. She thought that

1572
00:55:56,755 --> 00:55:58,914
you were protecting the marriage the whole time.

1573
00:55:58,914 --> 00:56:01,235
Right. Right. So this would be an interesting

1574
00:56:01,235 --> 00:56:02,695
question. At what point

1575
00:56:03,210 --> 00:56:05,210
did finding out about the fourth look no

1576
00:56:05,210 --> 00:56:08,030
longer feel helpful for her? Likely, my guess

1577
00:56:08,170 --> 00:56:10,409
is that there was enough consistency, and she

1578
00:56:10,409 --> 00:56:13,050
saw you taking the risk. Yeah. And she

1579
00:56:13,050 --> 00:56:15,210
saw you in that discomfort of, oh my

1580
00:56:15,210 --> 00:56:18,085
goodness. He's really laying down here and throwing

1581
00:56:18,085 --> 00:56:18,585
down

1582
00:56:18,885 --> 00:56:20,824
even though this is causing great discomfort.

1583
00:56:21,525 --> 00:56:23,765
And so there's droplets of trust being built

1584
00:56:23,765 --> 00:56:25,684
in that. Yeah. I think that's accurate. And

1585
00:56:25,684 --> 00:56:27,364
the partner is able to see that. I

1586
00:56:27,364 --> 00:56:30,585
say that acknowledging the discomfort. Right? It's messy.

1587
00:56:30,909 --> 00:56:32,909
It's messy. It's messy for both people in

1588
00:56:32,909 --> 00:56:35,550
different ways. He's coming into the reality of,

1589
00:56:35,550 --> 00:56:36,989
oh my goodness. I had no idea what

1590
00:56:36,989 --> 00:56:37,969
was going on.

1591
00:56:38,429 --> 00:56:40,750
He's coming into, like, yeah, but that's not

1592
00:56:40,750 --> 00:56:43,150
really all who I am. And it just

1593
00:56:43,150 --> 00:56:45,744
gives such a distorted view. Right? Right, because

1594
00:56:45,744 --> 00:56:47,344
we do, it's a threat, right? I wanna

1595
00:56:47,344 --> 00:56:48,724
be, I'm trying to

1596
00:56:49,105 --> 00:56:51,505
be brutally transparent because that's what she's asked

1597
00:56:51,505 --> 00:56:53,744
for. But then it's every time I do,

1598
00:56:53,744 --> 00:56:55,505
she's like, oh, see, you're still an addict,

1599
00:56:55,505 --> 00:56:57,664
you still objectify, you're still. And so it's

1600
00:56:57,664 --> 00:56:59,045
like, oh, my gosh, I can't

1601
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,819
police this behavior without

1602
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,839
being and conclusions being drawn to about it.

1603
00:57:04,839 --> 00:57:06,359
And so it does, it starts to get

1604
00:57:06,359 --> 00:57:07,179
very annoying

1605
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:09,500
being hyper vigilant because

1606
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:11,420
it's not being

1607
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:13,319
honored in the same

1608
00:57:14,045 --> 00:57:16,204
when I'm presenting it, I'm saying, see, I'm

1609
00:57:16,204 --> 00:57:19,164
doing everything I can to watch all of

1610
00:57:19,164 --> 00:57:21,244
the potential threats that are all around me,

1611
00:57:21,244 --> 00:57:23,085
but that's not how it's being perceived, for

1612
00:57:23,085 --> 00:57:25,105
it's being perceived as danger.

1613
00:57:25,405 --> 00:57:27,485
Oh my gosh. There's more going on here

1614
00:57:27,485 --> 00:57:29,690
than I thought. Again, it was just, it

1615
00:57:29,690 --> 00:57:30,269
was maddening.

1616
00:57:30,809 --> 00:57:32,570
I kept being told that I'm not getting

1617
00:57:32,570 --> 00:57:35,450
better, even though I'm really proud that I'm

1618
00:57:35,450 --> 00:57:38,010
policing these things because no other guy, no

1619
00:57:38,010 --> 00:57:39,930
other guy that I know is being this

1620
00:57:39,930 --> 00:57:41,869
vigilant, but I'm not getting the

1621
00:57:42,224 --> 00:57:44,305
benefits of it. If anything, it's backfire it

1622
00:57:44,305 --> 00:57:46,644
seems to be backfire. Now to your point,

1623
00:57:46,785 --> 00:57:48,785
I think, and I just want everybody listener

1624
00:57:48,785 --> 00:57:50,065
to hear this because I think Jill said

1625
00:57:50,065 --> 00:57:51,285
this and it's so true.

1626
00:57:51,664 --> 00:57:53,825
Yes, that was what was going on. But

1627
00:57:53,825 --> 00:57:56,005
to Jill's point and my wife's credit

1628
00:57:56,385 --> 00:57:57,125
with enough

1629
00:57:57,449 --> 00:57:59,690
practice, it was like, okay, well, I don't

1630
00:57:59,690 --> 00:58:01,690
really need to know that detail because it

1631
00:58:01,690 --> 00:58:04,010
is gonna trigger me because it's hard to

1632
00:58:04,010 --> 00:58:06,089
hear that he's stared at this woman's butt

1633
00:58:06,089 --> 00:58:07,849
for a fourth time. But at the same

1634
00:58:07,849 --> 00:58:09,609
time, I also know that he doesn't want

1635
00:58:09,609 --> 00:58:11,289
to, and I know that he's using his

1636
00:58:11,289 --> 00:58:13,355
tools at the gym. So I don't necessarily

1637
00:58:13,414 --> 00:58:14,875
need to hear that detail

1638
00:58:15,335 --> 00:58:17,414
because I know he uses his tools. Right?

1639
00:58:17,414 --> 00:58:19,015
But, again, that's a lot of bravery on

1640
00:58:19,015 --> 00:58:20,534
her part to get to a point where

1641
00:58:20,534 --> 00:58:22,795
she Oh, sure. Trusts me to

1642
00:58:23,255 --> 00:58:25,480
to be in good recovery. It it's brave

1643
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,800
work for both parties. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So

1644
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:29,320
I think the word I wanna close with

1645
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,220
is patience. Yeah. You know, it takes real

1646
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:32,860
persistence

1647
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:34,220
and grit

1648
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:37,994
to be patient with such a heart wrenching

1649
00:58:38,295 --> 00:58:39,835
Yeah. Messy process,

1650
00:58:40,295 --> 00:58:43,175
but to stick with it, and nothing is

1651
00:58:43,175 --> 00:58:44,554
wasted in this work.

1652
00:58:45,014 --> 00:58:47,815
Every point of discomfort you've mentioned in every,

1653
00:58:47,815 --> 00:58:49,114
quote, unquote, failure

1654
00:58:49,414 --> 00:58:51,034
around check ins or connection,

1655
00:58:52,079 --> 00:58:54,719
all of that is information and data and

1656
00:58:54,719 --> 00:58:57,140
feedback that helps us strengthen the next

1657
00:58:57,519 --> 00:59:00,239
mini phase, micro phase event. None of it's

1658
00:59:00,239 --> 00:59:02,500
wasted even when it feels like this royally

1659
00:59:02,559 --> 00:59:05,114
bombed or blew up on us. Okay. What

1660
00:59:05,114 --> 00:59:07,434
was it about that that blew up? What

1661
00:59:07,434 --> 00:59:09,515
does that teach us about ourselves and one

1662
00:59:09,515 --> 00:59:11,215
another? How do we

1663
00:59:11,675 --> 00:59:14,094
morph this into something that is more helpful?

1664
00:59:14,554 --> 00:59:17,275
So please stick with it, those listening. Find

1665
00:59:17,275 --> 00:59:19,849
what works for you. And this is really

1666
00:59:19,849 --> 00:59:22,430
how we grow into more secure,

1667
00:59:23,210 --> 00:59:24,349
attuned attachments

1668
00:59:24,650 --> 00:59:26,269
where it's not just about us.

1669
00:59:26,809 --> 00:59:29,210
I'm checking in with myself and also revealing

1670
00:59:29,210 --> 00:59:31,530
myself to be known by another in an

1671
00:59:31,530 --> 00:59:34,844
authentic way. That's really what Yeah, you For

1672
00:59:34,844 --> 00:59:36,445
lack of a better word is You said

1673
00:59:36,445 --> 00:59:38,204
it so well. I mean, what other things

1674
00:59:38,204 --> 00:59:40,864
in life that really got to a beautiful

1675
00:59:40,925 --> 00:59:43,804
perfect place? What are the things just became

1676
00:59:43,804 --> 00:59:46,525
that way without trial and error and tweaking

1677
00:59:46,525 --> 00:59:48,125
things? Nothing. Right? And you bring up a

1678
00:59:48,125 --> 00:59:51,150
great point. We can't just expect this whole

1679
00:59:51,150 --> 00:59:52,670
thing to go well out of the gates.

1680
00:59:52,670 --> 00:59:54,510
They never do. I noticed that within this

1681
00:59:54,510 --> 00:59:55,570
dynamic because

1682
00:59:56,109 --> 00:59:58,269
the guy doesn't want this to be going

1683
00:59:58,269 --> 01:00:00,109
on. She doesn't want this to be going

1684
01:00:00,109 --> 01:00:03,944
on. It definitely we approach this dynamic differently

1685
01:00:03,944 --> 01:00:05,065
than a lot of the other things in

1686
01:00:05,065 --> 01:00:06,824
our lives because both of us are so

1687
01:00:06,824 --> 01:00:08,684
mad that this is where we are.

1688
01:00:08,984 --> 01:00:11,304
But I think your advice was perfect. What

1689
01:00:11,304 --> 01:00:12,984
else? You know, when we were parenting, did

1690
01:00:12,984 --> 01:00:14,585
we know how to be perfect parents when

1691
01:00:14,585 --> 01:00:15,780
we first had it? No. Did we know

1692
01:00:15,780 --> 01:00:17,059
how to be perfect parents when our kid

1693
01:00:17,059 --> 01:00:18,260
turned 10? No. Did we know how to

1694
01:00:18,260 --> 01:00:20,039
be perfect parents when our kid turned 15?

1695
01:00:20,340 --> 01:00:22,099
But you figure it out and it's worth

1696
01:00:22,099 --> 01:00:23,460
it. And I think that's what I heard

1697
01:00:23,460 --> 01:00:24,739
there. And I think we just need to

1698
01:00:24,739 --> 01:00:26,739
remember to approach this the same way we

1699
01:00:26,739 --> 01:00:29,140
approach every hard thing in life, that knowing

1700
01:00:29,140 --> 01:00:31,244
that we're both gonna screw it up and

1701
01:00:31,244 --> 01:00:32,844
that we don't know and we need to

1702
01:00:32,844 --> 01:00:35,405
ask professionals for help because neither of us

1703
01:00:35,405 --> 01:00:36,925
know how to navigate this just like every

1704
01:00:36,925 --> 01:00:38,525
other hard thing you've ever done. So my

1705
01:00:38,525 --> 01:00:39,585
last question is,

1706
01:00:39,885 --> 01:00:43,085
if people want your help with this or

1707
01:00:43,085 --> 01:00:45,599
just their marriage and where they're at in

1708
01:00:45,599 --> 01:00:46,420
this situation,

1709
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:48,559
where do they go? What resources do you

1710
01:00:48,559 --> 01:00:50,719
have available for people? Where do they start?

1711
01:00:50,719 --> 01:00:52,179
Can you give us some of that information?

1712
01:00:52,639 --> 01:00:54,400
Sure. I appreciate you asking. So I'm based

1713
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,480
in Colorado, and I offer individual and group

1714
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:58,900
therapy as well as intensive. So my website's

1715
01:00:59,125 --> 01:01:01,364
packed with lots of resources and ways to

1716
01:01:01,364 --> 01:01:03,285
reach me. So I have a nine page

1717
01:01:03,285 --> 01:01:06,505
handout that goes through tips and worksheet ideas,

1718
01:01:06,724 --> 01:01:08,644
and that's all about my website. And I'll

1719
01:01:08,644 --> 01:01:10,325
send you the link to that, Roland. Yeah.

1720
01:01:10,325 --> 01:01:11,684
Please. That'll be great. So I have a

1721
01:01:11,684 --> 01:01:14,429
digital download that And your website is what's

1722
01:01:14,429 --> 01:01:16,190
that? Doctorjillmanning.com.

1723
01:01:16,190 --> 01:01:17,389
Doctorjillmanning.com.

1724
01:01:17,389 --> 01:01:19,409
Yes. And you are licensed in Colorado.

1725
01:01:19,869 --> 01:01:21,489
And then for those who are not

1726
01:01:21,789 --> 01:01:22,449
in Colorado,

1727
01:01:22,829 --> 01:01:24,769
they can fly to you

1728
01:01:25,150 --> 01:01:26,670
if they wanted to do, like, a few

1729
01:01:26,750 --> 01:01:28,484
a couple day intensive work. Is that I

1730
01:01:28,484 --> 01:01:30,644
offer one and two day intensives for the

1731
01:01:30,724 --> 01:01:32,804
great. I don't do couple intensive at at

1732
01:01:32,804 --> 01:01:34,324
this time, but for those that have been

1733
01:01:34,324 --> 01:01:36,885
betrayed, I do offer the intensives. Perfect. I

1734
01:01:36,885 --> 01:01:38,804
love that. I love that. Well, Jill, this

1735
01:01:38,804 --> 01:01:40,565
was so great. I knew right with this

1736
01:01:40,565 --> 01:01:42,039
topic, not only did I knew it was

1737
01:01:42,039 --> 01:01:43,000
gonna be a I knew it was gonna

1738
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:44,519
be a heated topic on my end because

1739
01:01:44,519 --> 01:01:46,599
I'm like, I have so much unresolved trauma

1740
01:01:46,599 --> 01:01:48,760
from our core check-in days. But also I

1741
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:50,199
just I knew you were gonna speak to

1742
01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:52,280
it really well. You just have a very

1743
01:01:52,519 --> 01:01:54,985
I like your view around not just this

1744
01:01:54,985 --> 01:01:57,164
aspect of recovery, but all recovery. You're very

1745
01:01:57,545 --> 01:02:00,425
flexible. You don't subscribe to any one model.

1746
01:02:00,425 --> 01:02:03,144
You use whatever is effective for the particular

1747
01:02:03,144 --> 01:02:04,505
needs of the client. I just love that

1748
01:02:04,505 --> 01:02:06,239
so much about you. I think that's my

1749
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:08,239
favorite thing about our past two kind of

1750
01:02:08,239 --> 01:02:09,760
collaborations that you and I have done is

1751
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:11,940
just the openness, the flexibility,

1752
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,440
and not adhering to Jill's plan, but what

1753
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,280
does the client need? And let's just set

1754
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:18,719
them up for success. And I just I

1755
01:02:18,719 --> 01:02:20,088
love that about you, and I think that

1756
01:02:20,088 --> 01:02:22,283
came out in the episode today. So thank

1757
01:02:22,283 --> 01:02:24,476
you for your time. Thank you, Roland. Thanks

1758
01:02:24,476 --> 01:02:26,670
for listening to this episode. If you are

1759
01:02:26,670 --> 01:02:28,864
a high achiever of the sex addiction and

1760
01:02:28,864 --> 01:02:31,058
you're looking for a recovery group full of

1761
01:02:31,058 --> 01:02:33,550
like minded men, visit successsuccessfulladdict.com.

1762
01:02:33,550 --> 01:02:36,429
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1763
01:02:36,429 --> 01:02:37,650
using four day retreats,

1764
01:02:38,030 --> 01:02:40,829
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1765
01:02:40,829 --> 01:02:43,069
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1766
01:02:43,069 --> 01:02:44,989
save your marriage, go to our website and

1767
01:02:44,989 --> 01:02:45,889
fill out our application.

1768
01:02:46,269 --> 01:02:48,714
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1769
01:02:48,714 --> 01:02:50,315
along to a friend in recovery who would

1770
01:02:50,315 --> 01:02:52,315
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1771
01:02:52,315 --> 01:02:53,994
get this information out to as many high

1772
01:02:53,994 --> 01:02:56,234
achievers as possible, and I can't do it

1773
01:02:56,234 --> 01:02:57,214
without your help.