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– Empathy is really about sitting in emotion

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– with somebody else and trying

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– to

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– somehow

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– step out of your own. I like to

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– say, I’m

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– taking those lenses that I look at life

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– through.

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– So I talk about the telescope, right? We

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– all have different colored lenses depending on our

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– experiences. So I’m gonna set down my telescope

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– and I’m gonna hold up my wife’s telescope

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– for just a moment. Mhmm. And I’m just

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– gonna sit and listen for the feeling words

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– and see how I can relate to that

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– and just hold that space because a lot

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– of times, the betrayed partner just wants to

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– be heard.

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– You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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– for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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– This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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– recovery principles

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– specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

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– I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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– Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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– men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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– more information about joining our group or attending

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– our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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– And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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– Alright, Debbie. Let’s dive right into it. So

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– your experience is the reason I reached out

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– to you working with couples for how many

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– years? Well, it’s been ten years now. In

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– my previous life, believe it or not, I

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– was a registered nurse.

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– Well, that’s even better. I always love when

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– therapists revamp themselves because I think it’s it’s

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– really nice to have all all that life

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– experience. And that’s ten years within this betrayal

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– dynamic. Is that correct? Yes. Yes. And that

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– was kinda wasn’t that the reason you became

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– a therapist was because of that? Yes. And

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– I often share this and that is I

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– was betrayed partner myself

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– and it happened twenty five years ago and

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– this field did not exist.

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– So I had to fight and claw my

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– way through my own healing. Fortunately for me,

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– I found a trauma therapist who had had

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– their own infidelity and experienced what I experienced

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– so they were able to guide me. So

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– what I’m doing now about twelve years ago,

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– I got the call that I was to

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– help other betrayed partners

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– and to help couples heal. So being so

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– passionate about it, that’s my goal. I love

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– that story. Yeah. It’s those are my favorite

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– helpers. Right? The ones that lived it themselves

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– and then came through it. So I wanted

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– to share that with the audience only because

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– when I was listening to your podcast on

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– another podcast,

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– I knew I was, I I have to

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– have Debbie come and speak. So we’re gonna

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– talk about today is

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– primarily communication, but we will touch on empathy

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– and is because as Debbie and I were

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– talking, it’s like, I don’t think you can

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– have effective communication within this betrayal dynamic without

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– really doing your best to understand empathy. And

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– I know my audience, I don’t know if

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– you guys have I almost have like PTSD

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– from hearing the word the word empathy because

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– it was just such a hard thing for

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– me to comprehend. It just in my world,

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– empathy was just not valuable. I never thought

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– about it. We didn’t really practice it in

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– my household growing up. In business, we just

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– skip over that whole thing. And so I

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– had to really learn it for the first

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– time after I had betrayed my wife. And

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– I wish I knew what I was doing

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– before. But Debbie and I are gonna try

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– to help you accelerate the process because you

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– don’t need to be inept in this, and

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– you also don’t need to be a master

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– at empathy to show up in an empathetic

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– way. And I think Debbie and I are

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– gonna clear some of that up. So let’s

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– first talk about the communication.

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– If you were to just highlight for the

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– audience,

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– what

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– errors do you see in that first two

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– years

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– where we’re having conversations that are not helpful

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– and actually potentially either causing harm or further

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– eroding trust. What’s one of the biggest things

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– you see between the couples in that dynamic?

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– Well, I see a couple things happen. So

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– let’s talk about the first one. The first

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– one is I see we’ve got a betrayed

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– partner

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– who’s got trauma brain. And so her nervous

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– system

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– is so geared up

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– for seeing the danger

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– that they literally

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– go offline,

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– meaning they’re no longer connected to their prefrontal

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– cortex where there’s logic, reasoning,

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– emotional regulation,

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– and they’re now back in that part of

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– their brain in the mid back part called

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– the limbic region, the amygdala’s are firing, they’re

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– in fight, flight or freeze,

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– and when we’re in that state communication cannot

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– happen.

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– So one of the things I teach my

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– couples is, is that if either one of

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– you go offline,

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– you can’t communicate. Yes. Olympic brain tells us

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– that, hey, we gotta fight, we gotta fight

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– for a resolution,

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– we’ve gotta fight for a solution. And the

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– problem is is you can’t if either one

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– of you are offline.

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– So

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– I teach them that the best thing you

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– can do is to call the pause the

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– conversation.

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– So we’ve gotta have a real clearly defined

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– way we do the pause so that it

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– doesn’t show up as gaslighting. Yes. Yes. All

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– of a sudden I say, hey, pause, time

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– out, and I walk away,

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– I am leaving

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– my partner hanging in a state of distress.

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– Yes. So we put in place prior to

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– it happening,

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– the idea that if we see the other

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– person going offline, if I feel myself going

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– offline,

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– I’m getting more limbic, then the first thing

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– I do is I ask to take a

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– pause. Now that pause needs to happen for

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– about twenty, thirty minutes.

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– During that time, both of them need to

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– do some self care, go out, take a

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– walk,

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– go get a drink,

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– go

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– do a meditation, do something to get your

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– nervous system regulated again.

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– The rule is is if we take a

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– time out to support the coupleship,

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– then we have to come back and finish

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– the conversation

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– when both are grounded.

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– So like I said, shortest amount of time

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– is thirty minutes. Mhmm. You can’t be longer

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– than twenty four hours.

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– So that’s the first thing that I see

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– happen.

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– Right? As far as And can I ask

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– So one thing that is so common, I

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– know you’ve seen this and I know that

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– every listener has probably encountered this?

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– In the moment, I would say there’s typically

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– one partner

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– who wants the break and not the other.

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– And the person who does not want the

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– break,

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– really doesn’t want the break, feels it as

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– a rejection, feels it as they’ll often weaponize

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– words or triangulate and say, hey, there you

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– are being avoidant again. You avoid conflict which

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– is so sad to see because when they

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– weaponize

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– the very attachment style that the person’s trying

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– to so can you speak to that for

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– a second before we go on? Because I

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– think that’s probably one of the biggest hang

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– ups is everything you said was absolutely correct

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– and we need to let this happen.

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– Right.

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– So you’re right. We all have different attachment

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– styles. So just real briefly, what the attachment

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– styles I see show up with couples where

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– there’s betrayal is we typically have one partner

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– that’s a little more anxious. Right? So they’re

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– gonna be the one that’s pursuing, I’m gonna

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– come at you, we have to have the

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– conversation.

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– If we don’t, my anxiety is so high,

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– I can’t manage it. And we have the

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– other partner who typically becomes more avoidant.

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– It’s like, oh, I’m conflict avoidant. I don’t

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– want it to get any worse, right? It’s

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– gotta stop. So that means I’m gonna leave.

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– So we get this dynamic going on, which

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– isn’t helpful.

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– So that’s why I like couples to sit

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– down when they’re both regulated

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– and together they come up with the plan

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– of here’s how we’re gonna handle it. But

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– the other thing I like is I like

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– them to talk about what words

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– can you hear me say

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– when we are

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– dysregulated,

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– right, when our brains are offline?

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– So I’ll give you a personal example. There’s

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– one time I called a time out with

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– my husband

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– and I said, I’m getting emotional, I need

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– to take a break, I wanna have this

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– conversation with you And the response was, well,

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– if you don’t talk about it now, then

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– I’m not willing to talk about it later.

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– And I said, I understand that. Right? However,

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– I need to take a break right now

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– because I’m gonna say something I regret,

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– and it’s gonna cause more disconnection.

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– So we’re gonna hear them say that, they

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– might hook us back in. I like to

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– reframe it as they’re just fighting for connection,

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– they don’t like the disconnection,

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– and you taking a time out might represent

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– to them that you’re trying to disconnect.

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– So at that point, we might say something

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– like, I really care about you. I really

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– wanna have this conversation with you. I want

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– it to go well. We’re taking a time

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– out. I’m taking a time out. That’s why

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– oftentimes I talked about verbiage and what verbiage

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– can you hear, what words can you hear.

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– Some people get really triggered, I found, in

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– the coupleship.

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– Or time out. Mhmm. Yes. So we call

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– we call it a pause. Mhmm. I even

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– have my couples come up with, let’s come

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– up with a code word. That we use

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– that code word if we get to the

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– point where either one of us are dysregulated

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– and it means I love and care about

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– you, but I need to take a pause

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– right now so I can get regulated

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– and maintain connection with you. So I have

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– a couple who they use the word Pompeii

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– because they describe it like I can just

252
00:08:59.660 –> 00:09:02.205
– feel the volcano getting ready to erupt. Well,

253
00:09:02.205 –> 00:09:03.805
– and I’ve heard that before though though another

254
00:09:03.805 –> 00:09:05.485
– trigger one is walk away. I need to

255
00:09:05.485 –> 00:09:07.985
– walk away. Again, it’s the verbiage.

256
00:09:08.365 –> 00:09:09.884
– And it’s interesting you say that because I

257
00:09:09.884 –> 00:09:11.245
– used to be on these people that was

258
00:09:11.245 –> 00:09:13.165
– like, oh, whatever. It’s just semantics. But no,

259
00:09:13.165 –> 00:09:15.184
– but I will tell you what, after facilitating

260
00:09:15.485 –> 00:09:18.470
– these groups, the semantics matters. I regret everything

261
00:09:18.470 –> 00:09:20.389
– I ever said to therapists about when I

262
00:09:20.389 –> 00:09:22.549
– was fighting as a client through this. I

263
00:09:22.549 –> 00:09:24.389
– was, oh, it’s just semantics. I would always

264
00:09:24.389 –> 00:09:26.389
– blow off all their stuff. I regret saying

265
00:09:26.389 –> 00:09:28.709
– any of that in recovery myself because now

266
00:09:28.709 –> 00:09:31.610
– I am realizing semantics matters a ton, especially

267
00:09:31.669 –> 00:09:33.554
– within communication. Because because what you don’t know

268
00:09:33.554 –> 00:09:35.315
– is what that means to the other person.

269
00:09:35.315 –> 00:09:37.335
– And to me, walk away means

270
00:09:37.795 –> 00:09:40.115
– I can’t handle you. I can’t do this.

271
00:09:40.115 –> 00:09:42.355
– You’re bad at communicating. That’s what I’m hearing.

272
00:09:42.355 –> 00:09:44.774
– And so when they try to walk away,

273
00:09:45.009 –> 00:09:45.829
– I’m hearing

274
00:09:46.129 –> 00:09:48.610
– attack. When in all reality, to your point,

275
00:09:48.610 –> 00:09:50.850
– it’s called effective communication. And the irony is

276
00:09:50.850 –> 00:09:52.370
– we practice it with our kids so that

277
00:09:52.370 –> 00:09:54.370
– we don’t Mhmm. Do anything we don’t wanna

278
00:09:54.370 –> 00:09:55.649
– say to our kids. We do it at

279
00:09:55.649 –> 00:09:57.444
– work so we can preserve our job. Why

280
00:09:57.444 –> 00:09:58.964
– wouldn’t we do it with our our most

281
00:09:58.964 –> 00:10:01.845
– important relationship in our lives? I 100% agree

282
00:10:01.845 –> 00:10:03.365
– with that. And I wanted to add one

283
00:10:03.365 –> 00:10:06.105
– thing too just so men listening to this.

284
00:10:06.644 –> 00:10:08.664
– It’s not always dysregulation.

285
00:10:09.284 –> 00:10:11.944
– One thing that I learned in Advanced Recovery

286
00:10:12.004 –> 00:10:12.504
– was

287
00:10:13.149 –> 00:10:15.470
– I’m what Paul what’s his name? Anyways, there’s

288
00:10:15.470 –> 00:10:17.789
– makers and managers. I’m a maker, so I

289
00:10:17.789 –> 00:10:20.110
– cannot switch task to task to task to

290
00:10:20.110 –> 00:10:22.529
– task. I have to mentally prepare myself

291
00:10:23.070 –> 00:10:24.975
– for the thing I’m gonna do. I have

292
00:10:24.975 –> 00:10:26.654
– to get in the mood, work into and

293
00:10:26.654 –> 00:10:28.174
– then when I’m in there, I can do

294
00:10:28.174 –> 00:10:29.934
– it better than anyone can do it. And

295
00:10:29.934 –> 00:10:31.375
– that’s it’s the gift and the curse of

296
00:10:31.375 –> 00:10:33.534
– a maker. You can do three things a

297
00:10:33.534 –> 00:10:35.615
– day well, and that’s it. And and so

298
00:10:35.615 –> 00:10:37.375
– if you try to do more so the

299
00:10:37.375 –> 00:10:39.230
– reason I’m saying this to guys is what

300
00:10:39.230 –> 00:10:41.730
– I would realize in Advanced Recovery was

301
00:10:42.110 –> 00:10:42.610
– that

302
00:10:42.990 –> 00:10:45.230
– I was really into something. My wife was

303
00:10:45.230 –> 00:10:47.949
– triggered, activated, wanted to have a conversation, a

304
00:10:47.949 –> 00:10:48.769
– hard conversation.

305
00:10:49.309 –> 00:10:51.389
– She would come in and do that, and

306
00:10:51.389 –> 00:10:53.569
– my nervous system was annoyed

307
00:10:54.345 –> 00:10:56.745
– at her because I was doing something different.

308
00:10:56.745 –> 00:10:58.664
– I am not prepared to have this conversation

309
00:10:58.664 –> 00:11:00.825
– that she wants to have. Mhmm. And as

310
00:11:00.825 –> 00:11:02.345
– much as I don’t wanna be annoyed at

311
00:11:02.345 –> 00:11:04.345
– her, I was offline. And then she would

312
00:11:04.345 –> 00:11:06.264
– say it, and I truly had no room

313
00:11:06.264 –> 00:11:07.625
– for her. And it wasn’t because I was

314
00:11:07.625 –> 00:11:09.959
– overwhelmed. It wasn’t because I was mad. I

315
00:11:09.959 –> 00:11:12.279
– had no room. And the problem was I

316
00:11:12.279 –> 00:11:14.779
– would try to engage because I was calm.

317
00:11:14.839 –> 00:11:17.559
– We were not disregulated. She actually presented it

318
00:11:17.559 –> 00:11:20.459
– very, very, very well. So I wanted to

319
00:11:20.600 –> 00:11:21.100
– participate

320
00:11:21.764 –> 00:11:23.945
– because of her efforts to present it well.

321
00:11:24.004 –> 00:11:25.945
– And, Debbie, I was not

322
00:11:26.404 –> 00:11:28.404
– and this is, you know, some neurodivergent stuff.

323
00:11:28.404 –> 00:11:31.205
– Who knows what? But I was not able

324
00:11:31.205 –> 00:11:33.365
– to just get online because I’m an I

325
00:11:33.365 –> 00:11:35.545
– am an empathetic person. I’m just not

326
00:11:35.929 –> 00:11:38.089
– until I’m ready to be. And here’s where

327
00:11:38.089 –> 00:11:40.350
– I figured this out, Debbie, was our intensives.

328
00:11:40.570 –> 00:11:43.129
– I knew the intensive the couple’s intensive with

329
00:11:43.129 –> 00:11:45.549
– our therapist was four hard conversations.

330
00:11:46.009 –> 00:11:47.610
– I knew she was going to be her.

331
00:11:47.610 –> 00:11:48.970
– I knew I was gonna be her. And

332
00:11:48.970 –> 00:11:51.164
– so I would show up in that intensive

333
00:11:51.225 –> 00:11:51.725
– ready

334
00:11:52.184 –> 00:11:53.945
– ready to be empathetic, and I would do

335
00:11:53.945 –> 00:11:55.384
– a great job. And so my therapist would

336
00:11:55.384 –> 00:11:56.825
– say, I don’t get it. I’ve seen you

337
00:11:56.825 –> 00:11:58.504
– be empathetic before. And that was when I

338
00:11:58.504 –> 00:12:00.904
– finally realized I have to be in the

339
00:12:00.904 –> 00:12:02.745
– place where I can. So the reason I

340
00:12:02.745 –> 00:12:04.264
– went on that tangent, Debbie, was just to

341
00:12:04.264 –> 00:12:05.759
– show all the listeners, a lot of you

342
00:12:05.759 –> 00:12:07.840
– guys are good at staying calm. You guys

343
00:12:07.840 –> 00:12:10.160
– are good at staying regulated. I would also

344
00:12:10.160 –> 00:12:11.680
– just add that does not mean that you’re

345
00:12:11.680 –> 00:12:14.080
– always gonna be ready to meet her at

346
00:12:14.080 –> 00:12:15.600
– the level that she deserves to be met.

347
00:12:15.600 –> 00:12:17.379
– And you have the right to still say,

348
00:12:17.774 –> 00:12:19.454
– I love this. Thank you for presenting it

349
00:12:19.454 –> 00:12:20.894
– the way that you presented it. What I’m

350
00:12:20.894 –> 00:12:22.654
– finding in my body right now is I’m

351
00:12:22.654 –> 00:12:24.414
– just torn right now. I was just doing

352
00:12:24.414 –> 00:12:26.174
– this. I was excited to do it. And

353
00:12:26.174 –> 00:12:26.674
– now

354
00:12:27.054 –> 00:12:28.975
– I’m hearing this and it’s very important. And

355
00:12:28.975 –> 00:12:30.570
– I am just not ready to have that

356
00:12:30.809 –> 00:12:33.289
– conversation with you right now. That’s okay to

357
00:12:33.289 –> 00:12:34.509
– ask for a pause

358
00:12:35.049 –> 00:12:36.649
– at that point in time as well. So

359
00:12:36.649 –> 00:12:38.009
– I just wanted to add that because I

360
00:12:38.009 –> 00:12:40.090
– do we’re not just talking about you being

361
00:12:40.090 –> 00:12:42.169
– dysregulated. There might just be a time where

362
00:12:42.169 –> 00:12:42.669
– you’re

363
00:12:43.074 –> 00:12:44.514
– not ready to have it. And you can

364
00:12:44.514 –> 00:12:46.034
– say, I love this. Hey, give me a

365
00:12:46.034 –> 00:12:47.634
– sec. I kinda wanna journal on this or

366
00:12:47.634 –> 00:12:48.834
– something. I just need to get in the

367
00:12:48.834 –> 00:12:50.274
– mood and then we but I think it’s

368
00:12:50.274 –> 00:12:52.195
– important and you’re probably gonna say this. I

369
00:12:52.195 –> 00:12:53.314
– hope every heard it. You guys have heard

370
00:12:53.314 –> 00:12:55.235
– it in other podcast episodes. Remember what Debbie

371
00:12:55.235 –> 00:12:57.659
– said? I’m gonna come back and we will

372
00:12:57.659 –> 00:12:59.899
– have this conversation. And again, you guys can

373
00:12:59.899 –> 00:13:02.559
– have a second pause too. That’s another thing

374
00:13:02.700 –> 00:13:04.700
– that I see couples not do is it’s

375
00:13:04.700 –> 00:13:06.379
– okay to ask for a second pause if

376
00:13:06.379 –> 00:13:07.820
– you guys come back and screw it up

377
00:13:07.820 –> 00:13:10.059
– again. There’s no right wrong way to do

378
00:13:10.059 –> 00:13:11.339
– this. You don’t have to listen to it

379
00:13:11.339 –> 00:13:12.754
– on. What Debbie and I are trying to

380
00:13:12.754 –> 00:13:14.355
– do is we’re trying to help you guys

381
00:13:14.355 –> 00:13:16.514
– have a productive conversation. And what we’re trying

382
00:13:16.514 –> 00:13:18.514
– to help you say is whatever it takes

383
00:13:18.514 –> 00:13:20.434
– to get there, let’s try to have a

384
00:13:20.434 –> 00:13:21.575
– productive conversation

385
00:13:22.035 –> 00:13:24.434
– rather than forcing a conversation that you’re just

386
00:13:24.434 –> 00:13:26.129
– simply not prepared to have. So I didn’t

387
00:13:26.129 –> 00:13:27.570
– wanna just add that because it’s not just

388
00:13:27.570 –> 00:13:30.309
– emotional dysregulation. Sometimes you can just not be

389
00:13:30.450 –> 00:13:32.529
– ready to give her the empathy that she’s

390
00:13:32.529 –> 00:13:34.450
– gonna require in that moment. Yeah. And I

391
00:13:34.450 –> 00:13:37.809
– love that internal awareness you have of not

392
00:13:37.809 –> 00:13:40.875
– only how your brain processes. Right? How you

393
00:13:40.875 –> 00:13:43.435
– work, right? But how do them verbalize to

394
00:13:43.435 –> 00:13:45.394
– her and communicate to her. Now is not

395
00:13:45.394 –> 00:13:47.514
– a good time, right? I maybe I can

396
00:13:47.514 –> 00:13:49.274
– sit and listen to this moment, maybe I

397
00:13:49.274 –> 00:13:51.595
– can’t. Yeah. I can’t here’s what’s going on

398
00:13:51.595 –> 00:13:52.495
– for me internally,

399
00:13:52.870 –> 00:13:55.269
– but let’s plan on getting together and doing

400
00:13:55.269 –> 00:13:57.350
– this discussion. Oh, I love that. Audience, did

401
00:13:57.350 –> 00:13:59.190
– you hear that? I can sit and listen,

402
00:13:59.190 –> 00:14:00.470
– but I don’t not sure I’m in a

403
00:14:00.470 –> 00:14:02.470
– position to respond. Do you guys hear these

404
00:14:02.470 –> 00:14:04.970
– options Debbie’s giving you? There’s lots of options.

405
00:14:05.165 –> 00:14:06.684
– And then if she wants to just have

406
00:14:06.684 –> 00:14:08.365
– you sit and listen and then maybe you

407
00:14:08.365 –> 00:14:10.125
– can do your response later and she’s okay

408
00:14:10.125 –> 00:14:12.045
– with that, then there’s another opportunity. I love

409
00:14:12.045 –> 00:14:14.225
– that, Debbie. Look at you. So so resourceful.

410
00:14:14.445 –> 00:14:16.465
– Us guys are so bad at this stuff.

411
00:14:16.524 –> 00:14:18.205
– To me, I have to solve the problem

412
00:14:18.205 –> 00:14:19.825
– right now. That’s my only option.

413
00:14:20.205 –> 00:14:21.809
– So this is this is really nice to

414
00:14:21.809 –> 00:14:23.409
– hear. So keep going. Yeah. I think you

415
00:14:23.409 –> 00:14:25.009
– had another idea on that. I was gonna

416
00:14:25.009 –> 00:14:27.970
– just say too is, like, I also teach

417
00:14:27.970 –> 00:14:30.929
– betrayed partners that lots of times they wanna

418
00:14:30.929 –> 00:14:32.870
– do a lot of talking. Right? They process

419
00:14:32.929 –> 00:14:36.184
– by talking. And like you said, the person

420
00:14:36.184 –> 00:14:38.745
– who’s doing the recovery work might not be

421
00:14:38.745 –> 00:14:41.065
– in a place where they have the capacity

422
00:14:41.065 –> 00:14:43.325
– in that moment to have a conversation.

423
00:14:43.945 –> 00:14:46.745
– So can we approach them and can we

424
00:14:46.745 –> 00:14:49.725
– say, I would like to visit sometime today,

425
00:14:50.190 –> 00:14:52.590
– right, about this topic. When is a good

426
00:14:52.590 –> 00:14:53.090
– time?

427
00:14:53.549 –> 00:14:56.350
– So we can actually schedule time to have

428
00:14:56.350 –> 00:14:57.330
– difficult conversations.

429
00:14:57.950 –> 00:15:00.429
– And I think it helps us, right, kinda

430
00:15:00.429 –> 00:15:02.509
– prepare for that. Yes. Yes. And and I

431
00:15:02.509 –> 00:15:03.950
– love what you just said. It’s not that

432
00:15:03.950 –> 00:15:05.835
– we’re putting it off. It’s not that you

433
00:15:05.835 –> 00:15:07.675
– can’t express yourself when you need to express

434
00:15:07.675 –> 00:15:10.495
– yourself, but it’s just opening this idea that

435
00:15:10.795 –> 00:15:12.875
– we may not be teed up to have

436
00:15:12.875 –> 00:15:14.175
– the most effective conversation

437
00:15:14.554 –> 00:15:16.475
– at every moment, at every time of the

438
00:15:16.475 –> 00:15:18.715
– day. Our spouses are not therapists. They’re not

439
00:15:18.955 –> 00:15:19.455
– oftentimes,

440
00:15:20.029 –> 00:15:22.269
– this is a raw trauma. We can’t expect

441
00:15:22.269 –> 00:15:24.029
– a response like that. And so what you’re

442
00:15:24.029 –> 00:15:26.610
– saying is freely express and

443
00:15:26.910 –> 00:15:28.990
– have systems in place so that you can

444
00:15:28.990 –> 00:15:30.750
– heal. Because the thing I see, Debbie, is

445
00:15:30.750 –> 00:15:32.610
– I just I see the relationship

446
00:15:32.990 –> 00:15:33.870
– gets so

447
00:15:35.084 –> 00:15:36.764
– I don’t know what the right word is,

448
00:15:36.764 –> 00:15:39.164
– but it’s just it’s already so hard in

449
00:15:39.164 –> 00:15:41.404
– this. It’s already so hard. And the last

450
00:15:41.404 –> 00:15:42.924
– thing we need is to have everyone start

451
00:15:42.924 –> 00:15:44.704
– to get all freaked out about

452
00:15:45.004 –> 00:15:46.125
– the day to day. Because I will tell

453
00:15:46.125 –> 00:15:47.725
– you that’s where I got Debbie. I just

454
00:15:47.909 –> 00:15:49.190
– it was like, oh, gosh. I don’t know

455
00:15:49.190 –> 00:15:51.110
– what I’m walking into when I get home.

456
00:15:51.110 –> 00:15:52.470
– I don’t know. Is this gonna be a

457
00:15:52.470 –> 00:15:54.230
– good evening? Is this gonna be a crummy

458
00:15:54.230 –> 00:15:56.230
– evening? And it just I could deal with

459
00:15:56.230 –> 00:15:58.069
– that for a while, but after a year

460
00:15:58.069 –> 00:16:00.069
– of that, Debbie, it was just so hard.

461
00:16:00.069 –> 00:16:01.589
– I mean, what you’re saying is we’re not

462
00:16:01.589 –> 00:16:03.412
– saying sweep this under the rug. What you’re

463
00:16:03.412 –> 00:16:05.393
– saying is let’s try to find a way

464
00:16:05.393 –> 00:16:07.374
– where we can stay engaged and connected for

465
00:16:07.374 –> 00:16:09.355
– longer because it’s the disconnect for two years,

466
00:16:09.355 –> 00:16:11.336
– three years that, oh, my gosh. I just

467
00:16:11.336 –> 00:16:13.565
– like at that point in time, it’s the

468
00:16:13.565 –> 00:16:15.546
– most rotten feeling in the world. And what

469
00:16:15.546 –> 00:16:17.527
– what Debbie and I are trying to do

470
00:16:17.527 –> 00:16:20.029
– is help you have these moments in an

471
00:16:20.029 –> 00:16:21.870
– effective way. Did you wanna add one more

472
00:16:21.870 –> 00:16:22.990
– thing before I give you a real life

473
00:16:22.990 –> 00:16:24.509
– example that I want you to help us

474
00:16:24.509 –> 00:16:26.110
– with? Yeah. I was just gonna say you

475
00:16:26.110 –> 00:16:29.250
– were describing a secure attachment. A secure attachment

476
00:16:29.389 –> 00:16:31.550
– is that I can stay in the hard

477
00:16:31.550 –> 00:16:33.809
– with you and still stay connected.

478
00:16:35.254 –> 00:16:37.575
– Right? I can blow it, and I can

479
00:16:37.575 –> 00:16:39.654
– do it all wrong, but I can come

480
00:16:39.654 –> 00:16:40.634
– back to you,

481
00:16:41.014 –> 00:16:43.175
– and I can do the repair, and I

482
00:16:43.175 –> 00:16:43.995
– can communicate,

483
00:16:44.455 –> 00:16:46.620
– and we stay connected through all of that.

484
00:16:46.700 –> 00:16:47.980
– You know how I said all that and

485
00:16:47.980 –> 00:16:49.839
– did not know there was a secure relationship?

486
00:16:49.899 –> 00:16:51.919
– Because I’m somebody who’s never had one until

487
00:16:52.220 –> 00:16:54.139
– until after my recovery at work. So here

488
00:16:54.139 –> 00:16:55.899
– I am saying all this novel thing, like,

489
00:16:55.899 –> 00:16:57.980
– it’s this epiphany. And to your point, it’s

490
00:16:57.980 –> 00:16:59.580
– like, oh, no. Actually, that’s what two healthy

491
00:16:59.580 –> 00:17:02.379
– people would do. Yeah. Exactly. How funny is

492
00:17:02.379 –> 00:17:04.034
– that? I wanna bring in some context. I

493
00:17:04.034 –> 00:17:05.954
– love bringing context when we can. I had

494
00:17:05.954 –> 00:17:08.515
– a client this morning bring this up. So

495
00:17:08.515 –> 00:17:10.994
– he had a request from his boss at

496
00:17:10.994 –> 00:17:12.375
– work. This is the first

497
00:17:12.835 –> 00:17:15.335
– travel request since the material was discovered.

498
00:17:16.049 –> 00:17:19.089
– And they are now doing radical honesty. She

499
00:17:19.089 –> 00:17:21.829
– wants to know things immediately. Well, he waited

500
00:17:21.889 –> 00:17:23.569
– half a day to tell her about this

501
00:17:23.569 –> 00:17:24.069
– request,

502
00:17:24.529 –> 00:17:25.589
– and that delay

503
00:17:25.970 –> 00:17:28.289
– was activating for her because she wanted to

504
00:17:28.289 –> 00:17:30.934
– know immediately when that happened. She felt like

505
00:17:30.934 –> 00:17:33.335
– he knew something that she didn’t. And then

506
00:17:33.335 –> 00:17:35.974
– on top of that, he said, hey, I

507
00:17:35.974 –> 00:17:37.994
– have to tell you something. I have to

508
00:17:38.295 –> 00:17:40.875
– go. And she did not like the verbiage.

509
00:17:41.335 –> 00:17:43.769
– Now, I can empathize with both couples because

510
00:17:43.849 –> 00:17:45.450
– he did the right thing. He brought it

511
00:17:45.450 –> 00:17:47.210
– to her, and he has every right to

512
00:17:47.210 –> 00:17:48.830
– wait to a point where he’s

513
00:17:49.450 –> 00:17:51.690
– regulated to deliver this information. And I don’t

514
00:17:51.690 –> 00:17:53.769
– think he needs to do it immediately when

515
00:17:53.769 –> 00:17:56.009
– he’s unregulated unless that’s part of the marital

516
00:17:56.009 –> 00:17:58.170
– contract that you guys have defined. And even

517
00:17:58.170 –> 00:17:59.654
– then, can it be done via text or

518
00:17:59.654 –> 00:18:00.934
– or email? And then we can have the

519
00:18:00.934 –> 00:18:04.055
– conversation later. But anyways, the point was she

520
00:18:04.055 –> 00:18:06.855
– considered this another betrayal. She considered it very

521
00:18:06.855 –> 00:18:10.234
– deceptive. She considered the language choice very manipulative.

522
00:18:11.015 –> 00:18:12.775
– And he’s just sitting here like, what the

523
00:18:12.775 –> 00:18:15.710
– heck? Speak to this dynamic so that the

524
00:18:15.710 –> 00:18:16.849
– gentleman can understand

525
00:18:17.549 –> 00:18:20.029
– her perspective. Because as he was saying the

526
00:18:20.029 –> 00:18:20.529
– story,

527
00:18:20.990 –> 00:18:22.910
– I hear why he’s so frustrated. But at

528
00:18:22.910 –> 00:18:26.190
– the same time, I also completely understand why

529
00:18:26.190 –> 00:18:27.470
– she felt the way that she felt. But

530
00:18:27.470 –> 00:18:29.294
– I wanna hear it from a betrayed partner

531
00:18:29.294 –> 00:18:29.794
– standpoint.

532
00:18:30.095 –> 00:18:31.394
– Why was that delivery

533
00:18:31.694 –> 00:18:34.335
– so disregulating for her? Why did that bring

534
00:18:34.335 –> 00:18:36.815
– her right back to as if he has

535
00:18:36.815 –> 00:18:38.595
– not done an ounce of recovery?

536
00:18:38.974 –> 00:18:41.549
– So my working theory would be she felt

537
00:18:41.549 –> 00:18:43.630
– like there was no choice. She wasn’t given

538
00:18:43.630 –> 00:18:45.089
– a choice, she was told,

539
00:18:45.470 –> 00:18:45.970
– right?

540
00:18:46.349 –> 00:18:48.269
– And so it’s all in how you approach

541
00:18:48.269 –> 00:18:50.589
– it. I’ve had the same situation come up

542
00:18:50.589 –> 00:18:52.669
– this past week with a couple that I’m

543
00:18:52.669 –> 00:18:55.169
– working with and there was that delayed

544
00:18:55.884 –> 00:18:58.545
– decision, right, to share about a trip

545
00:18:58.924 –> 00:19:01.825
– and any trip can be very triggering

546
00:19:02.285 –> 00:19:04.684
– for a betrayed partner. You just have to

547
00:19:04.684 –> 00:19:06.065
– automatically know that.

548
00:19:06.684 –> 00:19:10.019
– And so I do think going as soon

549
00:19:10.019 –> 00:19:11.859
– as possible and granted, you do have to

550
00:19:11.859 –> 00:19:13.539
– have time to think it through in your

551
00:19:13.539 –> 00:19:15.779
– mind, how am I gonna present it? But

552
00:19:15.779 –> 00:19:18.279
– I also like adding with to the presentation,

553
00:19:19.380 –> 00:19:21.000
– here’s my safety plan.

554
00:19:21.380 –> 00:19:23.159
– Here’s what I’m gonna be doing.

555
00:19:23.654 –> 00:19:24.154
– Right?

556
00:19:24.615 –> 00:19:26.375
– I want you to be involved in it

557
00:19:26.375 –> 00:19:28.934
– as well. Is there anything else you need

558
00:19:28.934 –> 00:19:31.674
– me to do to create safety for you?

559
00:19:32.295 –> 00:19:34.775
– And it might be some crazy things. You

560
00:19:34.775 –> 00:19:36.960
– might have to send a text with a

561
00:19:36.960 –> 00:19:38.960
– photo every so often of, you know, you’re

562
00:19:38.960 –> 00:19:39.700
– in a meeting

563
00:19:40.079 –> 00:19:42.079
– until we get that betrayed partner to a

564
00:19:42.079 –> 00:19:44.799
– point where they’re doing their own healing and

565
00:19:44.799 –> 00:19:48.000
– they’re rebuilding the trust and they’re feeling safe

566
00:19:48.000 –> 00:19:49.380
– and secure in the relationship.

567
00:19:50.294 –> 00:19:53.355
– So I think it is maybe you even,

568
00:19:53.414 –> 00:19:55.115
– again, with some communication,

569
00:19:56.054 –> 00:19:57.894
– I might say to my partner, I need

570
00:19:57.894 –> 00:20:00.134
– to share something that’s gonna be really hard

571
00:20:00.134 –> 00:20:02.534
– for you to hear. Mhmm. Right? But I

572
00:20:02.534 –> 00:20:04.855
– wanna be very open and honest with you,

573
00:20:04.855 –> 00:20:05.674
– and that is

574
00:20:06.109 –> 00:20:08.509
– that there is a work trip that is

575
00:20:08.509 –> 00:20:09.970
– scheduled for this date.

576
00:20:10.670 –> 00:20:13.950
– I want you to know that I recognize

577
00:20:13.950 –> 00:20:16.529
– that it’s triggering for you. Here is

578
00:20:16.990 –> 00:20:19.070
– my safety plan. Mhmm. Yes. I want you

579
00:20:19.070 –> 00:20:20.369
– to give me some input.

580
00:20:21.044 –> 00:20:23.144
– Let’s sit down and let’s talk this through.

581
00:20:23.845 –> 00:20:25.065
– And she may still

582
00:20:25.605 –> 00:20:28.565
– have some really distressing emotions. Right. But can

583
00:20:28.565 –> 00:20:30.325
– you sit there and this is bringing back

584
00:20:30.325 –> 00:20:32.424
– that little bit of that empathy piece. Yes.

585
00:20:32.769 –> 00:20:35.829
– Empathy is really about sitting in emotion

586
00:20:36.210 –> 00:20:38.390
– with somebody else and trying

587
00:20:38.849 –> 00:20:39.349
– to

588
00:20:40.049 –> 00:20:40.549
– somehow

589
00:20:41.490 –> 00:20:43.329
– step out of your own. I like to

590
00:20:43.329 –> 00:20:44.309
– say, I’m

591
00:20:44.609 –> 00:20:46.929
– taking those lenses that I look at life

592
00:20:46.929 –> 00:20:47.429
– through.

593
00:20:47.835 –> 00:20:49.755
– So I talk about the telescope. Right? We

594
00:20:49.755 –> 00:20:51.835
– all have different colored lenses depending on our

595
00:20:51.835 –> 00:20:52.335
– experiences.

596
00:20:52.714 –> 00:20:54.714
– So I’m gonna sit down my telescope and

597
00:20:54.714 –> 00:20:56.394
– I’m gonna hold up my wife’s telescope for

598
00:20:56.394 –> 00:20:58.554
– just a moment. Mhmm. And I’m just gonna

599
00:20:58.554 –> 00:21:01.214
– sit and listen for the feeling words

600
00:21:01.740 –> 00:21:03.839
– and see how I can relate to that

601
00:21:03.900 –> 00:21:06.299
– and just hold that space. Because a lot

602
00:21:06.299 –> 00:21:08.380
– of times, the betrayed partner just wants to

603
00:21:08.380 –> 00:21:10.779
– be heard. Mhmm. He just wants you to

604
00:21:10.779 –> 00:21:11.279
– hear,

605
00:21:11.660 –> 00:21:14.000
– right, their distress and their concern.

606
00:21:14.404 –> 00:21:17.365
– And then that opens the communication up for

607
00:21:17.365 –> 00:21:19.224
– talking about each of those concerns.

608
00:21:19.845 –> 00:21:22.404
– But you’re right. I see this situation come

609
00:21:22.404 –> 00:21:23.845
– up a lot. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And and

610
00:21:23.845 –> 00:21:25.125
– right when he said it, we always think

611
00:21:25.125 –> 00:21:26.804
– it’s all unique. It’s like, oh my gosh.

612
00:21:26.804 –> 00:21:28.565
– It’s a dime a dozen. I see I

613
00:21:28.565 –> 00:21:30.779
– see this weekly. Right? And you know what?

614
00:21:30.779 –> 00:21:32.880
– The route that I’ve always gone with that

615
00:21:32.940 –> 00:21:33.599
– that worked,

616
00:21:33.980 –> 00:21:36.700
– I still struggle to this day with empathy,

617
00:21:36.700 –> 00:21:39.099
– Debbie. It’s just it’s like another language to

618
00:21:39.099 –> 00:21:40.720
– me. It’s just not something

619
00:21:41.579 –> 00:21:44.684
– I understand yet. Obviously, I intellectually understand it

620
00:21:44.684 –> 00:21:46.525
– but in no way is it an instinct

621
00:21:46.525 –> 00:21:49.325
– of mine. It is very robotic still. So

622
00:21:49.325 –> 00:21:51.724
– what I’ve done, Debbie, is and I would

623
00:21:51.724 –> 00:21:53.484
– encourage guys, if you guys are just like

624
00:21:53.484 –> 00:21:56.125
– empathy is just this non stop problem for

625
00:21:56.125 –> 00:21:58.160
– you. What I’m about to tell you isn’t

626
00:21:58.160 –> 00:22:00.559
– empathy, but it is honesty. And so what

627
00:22:00.559 –> 00:22:01.460
– I would say is

628
00:22:01.759 –> 00:22:02.259
– just

629
00:22:02.559 –> 00:22:05.039
– honestly tell her what’s happening. So she’s not

630
00:22:05.039 –> 00:22:07.299
– gonna love it, but if it’s the truth,

631
00:22:07.920 –> 00:22:10.799
– that’s also a nice substitute if you can’t

632
00:22:10.799 –> 00:22:11.299
– necessarily

633
00:22:11.634 –> 00:22:14.194
– tap into the because again, these ladies aren’t

634
00:22:14.194 –> 00:22:15.954
– dumb. They know it’s hard for us and

635
00:22:15.954 –> 00:22:17.554
– they’re okay with it being hard for us.

636
00:22:17.554 –> 00:22:19.654
– But what they’re not okay with is silence,

637
00:22:20.035 –> 00:22:20.535
– freezing.

638
00:22:20.914 –> 00:22:23.154
– That’s something that is very activating to them

639
00:22:23.154 –> 00:22:24.994
– because again that signals you don’t care, you

640
00:22:24.994 –> 00:22:27.070
– don’t understand, you’re not trying to care. So

641
00:22:27.070 –> 00:22:28.430
– you guys have heard me say this on

642
00:22:28.430 –> 00:22:28.930
– podcast.

643
00:22:29.470 –> 00:22:32.750
– If that moment happens and your emotions are

644
00:22:32.750 –> 00:22:33.250
– overpowering

645
00:22:33.630 –> 00:22:34.130
– hers,

646
00:22:34.670 –> 00:22:36.990
– tell her. Again, it’s not empathy, it’s not

647
00:22:36.990 –> 00:22:38.430
– ideal, but I mean, I have had to

648
00:22:38.430 –> 00:22:39.869
– do that so many times. I’ve had to

649
00:22:39.869 –> 00:22:40.369
– say,

650
00:22:40.865 –> 00:22:42.465
– oh, honey. Oh, my gosh. I know this

651
00:22:42.465 –> 00:22:44.785
– isn’t supposed to be about me, but I

652
00:22:44.785 –> 00:22:46.545
– am getting so nervous right now. I feel

653
00:22:46.545 –> 00:22:48.065
– like there’s something that you’re gonna want me

654
00:22:48.065 –> 00:22:49.505
– to say or do, and I don’t know

655
00:22:49.505 –> 00:22:51.345
– what it is. And I’m having a hard

656
00:22:51.345 –> 00:22:53.105
– time listening right now because I’m, like, worried.

657
00:22:53.105 –> 00:22:55.184
– You know, is a hug appropriate right now?

658
00:22:55.184 –> 00:22:57.179
– Am I supposed to, what’s the sentence that

659
00:22:57.179 –> 00:22:58.619
– I read in that book? And just tell

660
00:22:58.619 –> 00:23:00.220
– her that that’s what’s going on for you.

661
00:23:00.220 –> 00:23:01.980
– And again, it’s not empathy, but what I

662
00:23:01.980 –> 00:23:02.799
– found is

663
00:23:03.259 –> 00:23:04.700
– what she doesn’t want you to do is

664
00:23:04.700 –> 00:23:06.539
– sit there in silence and freeze. Because again,

665
00:23:06.539 –> 00:23:08.859
– that’s perceived as I don’t have a partner.

666
00:23:08.859 –> 00:23:10.845
– You’re not in this with me. And so

667
00:23:11.005 –> 00:23:12.684
– I loved how you defined it. I loved

668
00:23:12.684 –> 00:23:14.304
– that. You said empathy was

669
00:23:14.684 –> 00:23:16.845
– being in their emotion with them. And I

670
00:23:16.845 –> 00:23:18.704
– really loved how you said that because

671
00:23:19.005 –> 00:23:21.244
– I think guys hear it as there’s a

672
00:23:21.244 –> 00:23:23.565
– thing to do. Mhmm. And what I have

673
00:23:23.565 –> 00:23:26.269
– found with my honest when I just sometimes

674
00:23:26.269 –> 00:23:27.470
– can’t do it and I just tell her,

675
00:23:27.470 –> 00:23:29.390
– like, oh my gosh, I’m inside. I’m freaking

676
00:23:29.390 –> 00:23:30.829
– out right now. I don’t know what to

677
00:23:30.829 –> 00:23:32.750
– do. I’m making it about me, and now

678
00:23:32.750 –> 00:23:34.450
– I’m in my head, was

679
00:23:34.910 –> 00:23:37.390
– that is me saying, hey, I listened to

680
00:23:37.390 –> 00:23:37.890
– you.

681
00:23:38.265 –> 00:23:39.724
– I wanted to do something,

682
00:23:40.025 –> 00:23:42.265
– and I’m having a response and I’m getting

683
00:23:42.265 –> 00:23:44.605
– really nervous. And in a way, Debbie,

684
00:23:44.984 –> 00:23:46.845
– even though I made it about me ish,

685
00:23:47.065 –> 00:23:48.904
– for whatever reason, she never gets mad at

686
00:23:48.904 –> 00:23:50.585
– me when I when I do that. Can

687
00:23:50.585 –> 00:23:53.484
– you explain why from a proprietary partner standpoint?

688
00:23:53.720 –> 00:23:56.119
– Can you explain why? Because I’ll tell you,

689
00:23:56.119 –> 00:23:58.519
– Debbie, three times out of four, I have

690
00:23:58.519 –> 00:24:00.680
– to say that. I can’t give her what

691
00:24:00.680 –> 00:24:02.839
– she wants. I’m freaking out because I’m I’m

692
00:24:02.839 –> 00:24:04.680
– at a loss for words. And now I’m

693
00:24:04.680 –> 00:24:06.119
– actually in my head because I’m worried she’s

694
00:24:06.119 –> 00:24:07.640
– gonna get mad at me because I’m at

695
00:24:07.640 –> 00:24:10.335
– a loss for words. So I quickly default

696
00:24:10.394 –> 00:24:12.894
– to basically saying I I can’t.

697
00:24:13.275 –> 00:24:15.355
– Why can you explain to the guys why

698
00:24:15.355 –> 00:24:17.214
– as a betrayed partner that’s

699
00:24:17.674 –> 00:24:19.194
– because I know guys listening are like, Roland,

700
00:24:19.194 –> 00:24:21.115
– that’s stupid. That’s not gonna work. Why does

701
00:24:21.115 –> 00:24:22.634
– it work though? Because I have seen it

702
00:24:22.634 –> 00:24:25.289
– work across the board. Because more than anything,

703
00:24:25.830 –> 00:24:28.869
– your betrayed partner wants to know what’s going

704
00:24:28.869 –> 00:24:30.570
– on in your internal world.

705
00:24:31.350 –> 00:24:33.049
– If you share with them,

706
00:24:33.350 –> 00:24:35.769
– here’s what’s going on for me right now,

707
00:24:35.830 –> 00:24:38.570
– here’s what I’m feeling, here’s what I need,

708
00:24:39.304 –> 00:24:41.944
– Believe it or not, that starts to build

709
00:24:41.944 –> 00:24:43.724
– trust. Yes. Because remember,

710
00:24:44.265 –> 00:24:46.984
– you hid your life from them in the

711
00:24:46.984 –> 00:24:47.484
– past.

712
00:24:48.265 –> 00:24:50.365
– So if I’m sharing with you,

713
00:24:50.664 –> 00:24:52.519
– hey, I hear what you’re saying,

714
00:24:52.820 –> 00:24:54.200
– I need to take time,

715
00:24:54.580 –> 00:24:57.140
– I’m feeling anxious on the inside, I don’t

716
00:24:57.140 –> 00:24:58.200
– know how to respond,

717
00:24:58.660 –> 00:25:00.200
– can you give me some time?

718
00:25:00.900 –> 00:25:02.360
– Wow, they’re gonna go,

719
00:25:02.820 –> 00:25:05.640
– my betraying partner is getting so smart.

720
00:25:06.045 –> 00:25:08.545
– Right? And they’re sharing with me

721
00:25:08.924 –> 00:25:11.244
– what’s happening. And that’s what they want more

722
00:25:11.244 –> 00:25:14.125
– than anything. Yes. Yes. The other thing too

723
00:25:14.125 –> 00:25:16.684
– to add, and I would say that when

724
00:25:16.684 –> 00:25:19.265
– you’re stepping away, you also say,

725
00:25:19.644 –> 00:25:20.705
– you really matter.

726
00:25:21.190 –> 00:25:22.950
– I really wanna hear what you have to

727
00:25:22.950 –> 00:25:25.350
– say. Yeah, I’m stepping away because you matter.

728
00:25:25.350 –> 00:25:26.970
– Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

729
00:25:27.430 –> 00:25:29.430
– Yeah, which is really hard, I know, but

730
00:25:29.430 –> 00:25:31.750
– trade partners, they get really anxious, right? And

731
00:25:31.750 –> 00:25:33.590
– their brains telling them we gotta figure it

732
00:25:33.590 –> 00:25:34.250
– out now.

733
00:25:34.549 –> 00:25:35.049
– So

734
00:25:35.695 –> 00:25:37.455
– again, I’m gonna circle back around to something

735
00:25:37.455 –> 00:25:38.355
– I said earlier,

736
00:25:38.974 –> 00:25:41.154
– ask her what words that you can say

737
00:25:41.455 –> 00:25:43.715
– that she will be able to hear. Mhmm.

738
00:25:44.894 –> 00:25:46.575
– Makes all the difference in the world. And

739
00:25:46.575 –> 00:25:49.055
– these conversations are best had again, you said

740
00:25:49.055 –> 00:25:52.019
– this earlier, these conversations are best had out

741
00:25:52.019 –> 00:25:52.759
– of conflict.

742
00:25:53.220 –> 00:25:54.820
– When you guys are in it is not

743
00:25:54.820 –> 00:25:57.480
– when she can think about what it’s always

744
00:25:57.940 –> 00:26:00.019
– when we’re out of conflict, and we’re walking,

745
00:26:00.019 –> 00:26:01.539
– and we’ve had a good day. Say, hey,

746
00:26:01.539 –> 00:26:03.779
– you know what, honey? This has happened twice

747
00:26:03.779 –> 00:26:05.894
– this week. What would feel good when that

748
00:26:05.894 –> 00:26:07.815
– happens? Because I’m at a loss. It seems

749
00:26:07.815 –> 00:26:09.894
– like everything I’ve tried hasn’t worked. It’s so

750
00:26:09.894 –> 00:26:11.575
– much easier to have that conversation when you’re

751
00:26:11.575 –> 00:26:13.815
– happy on a walk. Yes. Right? And guys,

752
00:26:13.815 –> 00:26:15.734
– I think guys I don’t think I know

753
00:26:15.734 –> 00:26:17.789
– you’ve heard it. They don’t wanna bring up

754
00:26:17.950 –> 00:26:20.269
– this dynamic when there’s good times because in

755
00:26:20.269 –> 00:26:21.950
– their little head, it’s like, oh, I I

756
00:26:21.950 –> 00:26:23.070
– want the good time to be a good

757
00:26:23.070 –> 00:26:24.910
– time. And, yeah, I’m sure you’ve heard every

758
00:26:24.910 –> 00:26:26.670
– partner. They’ll you know, they always come back

759
00:26:26.670 –> 00:26:28.509
– to that. Well, I think about you’re cheating

760
00:26:28.509 –> 00:26:30.670
– pretty much twenty four seven. So so don’t

761
00:26:30.670 –> 00:26:32.670
– hesitate to bring it up because I’m thinking

762
00:26:32.670 –> 00:26:34.755
– about it constantly, all the time, you know.

763
00:26:34.755 –> 00:26:36.274
– That white car looks like you’re a fair

764
00:26:36.274 –> 00:26:38.115
– partner’s car, and, oh, I wonder if you

765
00:26:38.115 –> 00:26:39.794
– like women like her, and I mean, it’s

766
00:26:39.794 –> 00:26:41.234
– it’s on these poorly. And the other thing

767
00:26:41.234 –> 00:26:42.514
– I wanna add to that I glossed over

768
00:26:42.514 –> 00:26:45.154
– was, sometimes guys, you know, they hear me

769
00:26:45.154 –> 00:26:46.694
– say that and then they go, well, Roland,

770
00:26:46.940 –> 00:26:48.940
– that’s not helpful either because I’m bad at

771
00:26:48.940 –> 00:26:51.019
– empathy. I also don’t know how I feel.

772
00:26:51.019 –> 00:26:53.019
– So now you’re telling me two things that

773
00:26:53.019 –> 00:26:55.679
– I can’t do. Here’s another third option is,

774
00:26:56.220 –> 00:26:57.740
– I’ll tell you what, you do know that

775
00:26:57.740 –> 00:26:59.579
– you’re scared to tell her about the work

776
00:26:59.579 –> 00:27:01.924
– trip. Mhmm. You do know that, so

777
00:27:02.224 –> 00:27:02.964
– lead with

778
00:27:03.345 –> 00:27:05.184
– that. Hey, honey. Oh my gosh. I hate

779
00:27:05.184 –> 00:27:07.505
– this, and I’m so nervous to tell you

780
00:27:07.505 –> 00:27:08.404
– this right now.

781
00:27:08.865 –> 00:27:10.865
– And here’s my hunch with this, you know,

782
00:27:10.865 –> 00:27:13.025
– and I’m I’m sure there’s science somewhere around

783
00:27:13.025 –> 00:27:14.464
– that I could find to back this, but

784
00:27:14.464 –> 00:27:15.184
– here’s what I

785
00:27:15.910 –> 00:27:18.150
– Humans like humans, and we are all human.

786
00:27:18.150 –> 00:27:20.150
– And so when you say, I’m so nervous

787
00:27:20.150 –> 00:27:21.210
– to tell you this,

788
00:27:21.670 –> 00:27:22.630
– and then I hate that we have to

789
00:27:22.630 –> 00:27:24.950
– have this conversation because I really in my

790
00:27:24.950 –> 00:27:26.730
– world, I’d rather that we weren’t.

791
00:27:27.029 –> 00:27:29.029
– But my boss told me this morning that

792
00:27:29.029 –> 00:27:31.295
– there’s a trip. Right? And now you’re teeing

793
00:27:31.295 –> 00:27:34.015
– it up with I’m nervous and I find

794
00:27:34.015 –> 00:27:36.335
– people can soften when that happens because they

795
00:27:36.575 –> 00:27:38.654
– again, we’re all humans. And then you’re saying,

796
00:27:38.654 –> 00:27:40.575
– I’m not happy that this conversation’s happened. So

797
00:27:40.575 –> 00:27:42.414
– you’re taking our side and then it’s being

798
00:27:42.414 –> 00:27:42.914
– presented

799
00:27:43.380 –> 00:27:44.980
– after that. So for the guys who say

800
00:27:44.980 –> 00:27:46.660
– that they can’t feel and they can’t do

801
00:27:46.660 –> 00:27:48.579
– empathy, it’s like, oh, come on. If you’re

802
00:27:48.579 –> 00:27:50.599
– nervous to present it, that is a feeling.

803
00:27:50.900 –> 00:27:52.579
– And so the thing that I have learned

804
00:27:52.579 –> 00:27:54.900
– is honesty conquers all. And there’s so many

805
00:27:54.900 –> 00:27:57.059
– religious texts and everything that basically say this.

806
00:27:57.059 –> 00:27:58.740
– Right? The truth is just the way to

807
00:27:58.740 –> 00:28:00.875
– go. It is just always the way to

808
00:28:00.875 –> 00:28:02.654
– go. Oh my gosh. And don’t apologize.

809
00:28:03.434 –> 00:28:06.714
– Don’t butter them up. Don’t just say the

810
00:28:06.714 –> 00:28:09.275
– darn truth. That’s what I always tell everybody,

811
00:28:09.275 –> 00:28:11.434
– and it is shocking how well that goes.

812
00:28:11.434 –> 00:28:13.820
– Who knew? After after a lifetime of lying,

813
00:28:13.820 –> 00:28:15.420
– I wish I knew that telling the truth

814
00:28:15.420 –> 00:28:17.100
– was actually gonna work. Anything to add there

815
00:28:17.100 –> 00:28:18.940
– before we jump over to speak to empathy

816
00:28:18.940 –> 00:28:20.940
– a bit? I just love the idea, like

817
00:28:20.940 –> 00:28:23.120
– you said, of lead with an emotion.

818
00:28:23.820 –> 00:28:26.779
– Mhmm. And you’re right. Most betraying partners have

819
00:28:26.779 –> 00:28:29.434
– a lot of fear. Right? And so if

820
00:28:29.434 –> 00:28:30.095
– you’re afraid,

821
00:28:30.555 –> 00:28:32.975
– you know, you’re hesitating, you’re wanting to avoid,

822
00:28:33.275 –> 00:28:35.755
– chances are there’s fear underneath it. Right. And

823
00:28:35.755 –> 00:28:37.195
– to your point, I know a lot of

824
00:28:37.195 –> 00:28:38.555
– guys are like, well, why would that work?

825
00:28:38.555 –> 00:28:40.349
– Because in our worlds, you know, and this

826
00:28:40.349 –> 00:28:42.190
– to empathize with the guys, in our worlds,

827
00:28:42.190 –> 00:28:43.630
– we hear that and we’re like, that wouldn’t

828
00:28:43.630 –> 00:28:46.109
– be helpful at all. Well, guys, you’re not

829
00:28:46.109 –> 00:28:48.349
– her and you’re not a female and you’re

830
00:28:48.349 –> 00:28:51.069
– also not a betrayed wife. And so, again,

831
00:28:51.069 –> 00:28:52.849
– what you said is it’s so refreshing

832
00:28:53.230 –> 00:28:54.210
– to have someone

833
00:28:54.509 –> 00:28:57.595
– feeling their feelings, expressing their feelings, expressing their

834
00:28:57.595 –> 00:28:58.734
– fears, their anxieties.

835
00:28:59.355 –> 00:28:59.855
– And,

836
00:29:00.234 –> 00:29:02.234
– another cool thing is if they’re nervous, you

837
00:29:02.234 –> 00:29:03.835
– know what that means? That means that you

838
00:29:03.835 –> 00:29:06.315
– love her. Mhmm. Right? And that’s the thing

839
00:29:06.315 –> 00:29:08.075
– is when we we don’t get nervous when

840
00:29:08.075 –> 00:29:10.210
– we have nothing to lose. I think that’s

841
00:29:10.210 –> 00:29:12.390
– the thing that makes a lot of this

842
00:29:12.450 –> 00:29:14.529
– sharing of the emotion work is when you’re

843
00:29:14.529 –> 00:29:15.029
– scared,

844
00:29:15.329 –> 00:29:17.089
– it means you have something to lose. If

845
00:29:17.089 –> 00:29:19.269
– you’re nervous, if you’re anxious, if you’re worried,

846
00:29:19.409 –> 00:29:20.549
– if you feel stupid,

847
00:29:20.849 –> 00:29:22.289
– all of these things, it’s because we have

848
00:29:22.289 –> 00:29:23.805
– something to lose. And I think that it

849
00:29:23.805 –> 00:29:25.725
– just feel it’s so refreshing for these ladies

850
00:29:25.725 –> 00:29:28.285
– to hear that because it’s like you do

851
00:29:28.285 –> 00:29:30.365
– care. Right? And oftentimes that is, you know,

852
00:29:30.525 –> 00:29:32.205
– you’ve been a betrayed partner. I do think

853
00:29:32.205 –> 00:29:34.164
– a thing you wonder all day long is,

854
00:29:34.164 –> 00:29:35.105
– do you care?

855
00:29:35.485 –> 00:29:36.845
– Do you understand what you did to me?

856
00:29:36.845 –> 00:29:38.660
– Does this matter? Right? And I think by

857
00:29:38.660 –> 00:29:41.619
– expressing our emotions in a roundabout way, it

858
00:29:41.619 –> 00:29:44.119
– does prove that you’re still in this. Absolutely.

859
00:29:44.420 –> 00:29:46.579
– It’s numb people and people who are checking

860
00:29:46.579 –> 00:29:48.420
– out that don’t feel. And the reason I’m

861
00:29:48.420 –> 00:29:49.779
– going on with this, I am I know

862
00:29:49.779 –> 00:29:51.460
– how hard this is because it was hard

863
00:29:51.460 –> 00:29:53.755
– for me And what I slowly realized is

864
00:29:53.755 –> 00:29:55.355
– you actually have a lot of options. You

865
00:29:55.355 –> 00:29:57.515
– don’t have to say the right sentence. You

866
00:29:57.515 –> 00:29:59.434
– know, it’s intimidating to listen to Jake Porter

867
00:29:59.434 –> 00:30:00.494
– and how good

868
00:30:01.035 –> 00:30:04.154
– he is at saying empathetic things. It just

869
00:30:04.154 –> 00:30:05.914
– blows my mind what comes out of his

870
00:30:05.914 –> 00:30:07.299
– mouth because I would care. You know, I’ll

871
00:30:07.299 –> 00:30:08.740
– say the empathy and then he’ll say something

872
00:30:08.740 –> 00:30:10.580
– 20 times better than the thing that I

873
00:30:10.580 –> 00:30:12.420
– said. I’m just like, I didn’t even know

874
00:30:12.420 –> 00:30:14.839
– that that option existed. And so it’s intimidating,

875
00:30:14.900 –> 00:30:16.259
– but just I just want guys to know

876
00:30:16.259 –> 00:30:18.980
– there’s options here. There’s tons of options. There’s

877
00:30:18.980 –> 00:30:20.180
– no right or wrong way to do it.

878
00:30:20.180 –> 00:30:21.779
– The point is just to show your partner

879
00:30:21.779 –> 00:30:23.144
– that you give a shit. I mean, that

880
00:30:23.144 –> 00:30:25.384
– is just the point. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Any

881
00:30:25.384 –> 00:30:26.585
– one more thing to add before we jump

882
00:30:26.585 –> 00:30:28.825
– in? Empathy is a skill set. Yes, ma’am.

883
00:30:28.825 –> 00:30:30.904
– Right? It’s just like riding a bike. Right?

884
00:30:30.904 –> 00:30:32.424
– When we first got on a bike, you

885
00:30:32.424 –> 00:30:34.424
– know, we all fell over. But the more

886
00:30:34.424 –> 00:30:36.490
– you practice, the better you get. So talk

887
00:30:36.490 –> 00:30:38.650
– about that. Because, again, I think it does

888
00:30:38.650 –> 00:30:40.169
– become a dirty word for a lot of

889
00:30:40.169 –> 00:30:42.009
– guys because it’s just we’re hearing about it

890
00:30:42.009 –> 00:30:43.769
– all the time. Oh, you’ll well, you won’t

891
00:30:43.769 –> 00:30:45.929
– get that until he learns to practice empathy,

892
00:30:45.929 –> 00:30:48.250
– until he this. And it’s very nerve wracking

893
00:30:48.250 –> 00:30:51.115
– because it almost becomes a whole another problem

894
00:30:51.115 –> 00:30:53.434
– in addition to the portrayal is this, how

895
00:30:53.434 –> 00:30:55.755
– do I do empathy? But again, as I’ve

896
00:30:55.755 –> 00:30:58.795
– learned this, it’s not these statements. Right? It’s

897
00:30:58.795 –> 00:31:00.954
– something I think everybody can tap into in

898
00:31:00.954 –> 00:31:03.369
– their own way. I mentioned this before the

899
00:31:03.369 –> 00:31:05.049
– podcast. For the listeners, if you guys have

900
00:31:05.049 –> 00:31:07.210
– not listened to Stevie Hall’s episode on my

901
00:31:07.210 –> 00:31:09.529
– podcast, it’s great to listen to because what

902
00:31:09.529 –> 00:31:11.289
– she tries to do is just broaden the

903
00:31:11.289 –> 00:31:14.089
– horizons on what empathy is. And I do

904
00:31:14.089 –> 00:31:16.725
– think the betrayed partners can benefit too of

905
00:31:16.725 –> 00:31:19.285
– broadening their horizons because I do think the

906
00:31:19.285 –> 00:31:21.445
– empathy that you’re used to getting from your

907
00:31:21.445 –> 00:31:24.085
– mom, your girlfriends, your therapist, your husband’s gonna

908
00:31:24.085 –> 00:31:25.205
– just give it to you in a different

909
00:31:25.205 –> 00:31:26.884
– way. And I think too, we need to

910
00:31:26.884 –> 00:31:29.205
– also I’d encourage the betrayed women to soften.

911
00:31:29.205 –> 00:31:30.839
– I’d love to have your perspective on this.

912
00:31:31.079 –> 00:31:32.759
– Also, kind of broaden your horizons a bit

913
00:31:32.759 –> 00:31:34.759
– because I do think just because it’s not

914
00:31:34.759 –> 00:31:36.599
– the way you want it to be said,

915
00:31:36.599 –> 00:31:37.980
– I think we need to be careful

916
00:31:38.359 –> 00:31:41.279
– accusing the person of being unempathetic. I think

917
00:31:41.559 –> 00:31:43.720
– Mhmm. I really dislike that because I feel

918
00:31:43.720 –> 00:31:45.319
– like it pulled me into my turtle shell.

919
00:31:45.319 –> 00:31:46.335
– And I was like, you know what? Well,

920
00:31:46.335 –> 00:31:47.615
– screw it. I’m not even gonna try to

921
00:31:47.615 –> 00:31:50.095
– do empathy anymore then because I have been

922
00:31:50.095 –> 00:31:52.095
– trying and all you do is just squash

923
00:31:52.095 –> 00:31:53.774
– it all and there’s no and I did.

924
00:31:53.774 –> 00:31:55.375
– I just I stonewalled. I was like, alright.

925
00:31:55.375 –> 00:31:56.654
– I’m I’m not even gonna try to do

926
00:31:56.654 –> 00:31:58.335
– empathy then. I’m tired of it because you

927
00:31:58.414 –> 00:32:00.240
– nothing’s good enough for you. Can you speak

928
00:32:00.240 –> 00:32:01.680
– to that a little bit from a trade

929
00:32:01.680 –> 00:32:02.500
– partner standpoint?

930
00:32:03.279 –> 00:32:05.759
– Well, I do hear betrayed partners come in

931
00:32:05.759 –> 00:32:08.240
– and they’ll say, you know what? He’s trying

932
00:32:08.240 –> 00:32:10.420
– empathy, but it sounds like it’s a script.

933
00:32:10.480 –> 00:32:12.605
– It is so rote, you know, and it

934
00:32:12.605 –> 00:32:15.164
– doesn’t count. And I’ll say to them, but

935
00:32:15.164 –> 00:32:15.985
– it does.

936
00:32:16.365 –> 00:32:18.765
– Look at what it’s showing you. They’re making

937
00:32:18.765 –> 00:32:19.505
– an effort.

938
00:32:20.125 –> 00:32:22.605
– And yes, it’s gonna sound that way. This

939
00:32:22.605 –> 00:32:25.325
– is something they’ve never done before. Mhmm. And

940
00:32:25.325 –> 00:32:27.559
– so a lot of them don’t even understand

941
00:32:27.619 –> 00:32:30.259
– emotions, and they’re trying to learn emotions and

942
00:32:30.259 –> 00:32:31.859
– where do I fill it in my body,

943
00:32:31.859 –> 00:32:34.099
– and, you know, what emotion is it? And

944
00:32:34.099 –> 00:32:36.339
– I said, and for them to now step

945
00:32:36.339 –> 00:32:39.160
– into empathy, they’re trying to understand your feelings

946
00:32:39.220 –> 00:32:40.759
– and reflect that back.

947
00:32:41.105 –> 00:32:43.825
– I said, it’s like they’re speaking Latin in

948
00:32:43.825 –> 00:32:44.484
– a sense.

949
00:32:44.865 –> 00:32:46.705
– Right? I love how you worded that. It’s

950
00:32:46.705 –> 00:32:48.545
– almost like when a kid comes and says,

951
00:32:48.545 –> 00:32:50.625
– dad, I made you a picture. And you

952
00:32:50.625 –> 00:32:51.924
– look at it and you’re like,

953
00:32:52.305 –> 00:32:53.819
– you know, it’s just like,

954
00:32:54.859 –> 00:32:56.779
– oh, thank you. And you have no idea

955
00:32:56.779 –> 00:32:57.679
– what it is.

956
00:32:57.980 –> 00:32:59.500
– And do you look at the kid and

957
00:32:59.500 –> 00:33:01.099
– say, oh, this is a crap drawing. Come

958
00:33:01.099 –> 00:33:02.539
– back when you can make me a better

959
00:33:02.539 –> 00:33:04.700
– one. No. We we have recognized the effort.

960
00:33:04.700 –> 00:33:06.559
– And I it’s so true what you said.

961
00:33:06.825 –> 00:33:09.065
– But that being said, I gotta say, I

962
00:33:09.065 –> 00:33:11.804
– will empathize. I’ve recently been through something very

963
00:33:11.944 –> 00:33:13.244
– serious in my life

964
00:33:13.704 –> 00:33:15.304
– and universe has a way of doing that,

965
00:33:15.304 –> 00:33:17.464
– doesn’t it? And now, here I am needing

966
00:33:17.464 –> 00:33:17.964
– empathy

967
00:33:18.505 –> 00:33:20.744
– and I’m not getting the empathy that I

968
00:33:20.744 –> 00:33:22.880
– want. No one’s saying it. There’s only one

969
00:33:22.880 –> 00:33:25.039
– gentleman I’ve met who can who really, I

970
00:33:25.039 –> 00:33:27.279
– feel like, understands what it is that I’m

971
00:33:27.279 –> 00:33:29.059
– going through. And it’s a yucky

972
00:33:29.440 –> 00:33:31.359
– feeling. And it’s not for a lack of

973
00:33:31.359 –> 00:33:32.960
– trying, Debbie. I have all these people in

974
00:33:32.960 –> 00:33:33.940
– my life trying

975
00:33:34.345 –> 00:33:35.164
– to empathize,

976
00:33:35.625 –> 00:33:38.025
– but they just don’t get it the way

977
00:33:38.025 –> 00:33:39.805
– that I want them to get it. And

978
00:33:40.025 –> 00:33:41.384
– so I’m getting kind of a taste of

979
00:33:41.384 –> 00:33:42.924
– my own medicine here because

980
00:33:43.384 –> 00:33:45.865
– now I understand I was so frustrated with

981
00:33:45.865 –> 00:33:47.330
– my wife when when she would say, you

982
00:33:47.330 –> 00:33:48.289
– know, you don’t get it, you don’t get

983
00:33:48.289 –> 00:33:49.250
– it, you don’t get it. And I’m just

984
00:33:49.250 –> 00:33:51.090
– like, oh my gosh, somebody help me try

985
00:33:51.090 –> 00:33:52.690
– and get it. I want to help you.

986
00:33:52.690 –> 00:33:54.450
– I just don’t know how to get it

987
00:33:54.450 –> 00:33:55.809
– in the way that you want to get

988
00:33:55.809 –> 00:33:57.730
– it. So how do we navigate that? Because

989
00:33:57.730 –> 00:34:00.070
– I do think that’s a very real issue.

990
00:34:00.130 –> 00:34:03.275
– I often wonder sometimes if these men

991
00:34:03.734 –> 00:34:04.234
– can

992
00:34:04.695 –> 00:34:06.795
– match the ugliness and the hurt

993
00:34:07.095 –> 00:34:08.934
– of what has been done. How do we

994
00:34:08.934 –> 00:34:11.175
– navigate that? Do they have to? What would

995
00:34:11.175 –> 00:34:13.175
– you say to both the just a couple

996
00:34:13.175 –> 00:34:15.414
– on this because I’ll tell you what, it’s

997
00:34:15.414 –> 00:34:17.255
– frightening for me when I hear that I

998
00:34:17.255 –> 00:34:17.994
– have to

999
00:34:18.739 –> 00:34:20.900
– show her that I feel what I’ve done

1000
00:34:20.900 –> 00:34:22.579
– because in my mind, I’m like, oh my

1001
00:34:22.579 –> 00:34:24.359
– gosh, what I’ve done is so horrible.

1002
00:34:24.659 –> 00:34:26.099
– I don’t know if I could ever even

1003
00:34:26.099 –> 00:34:28.260
– fathom the ugliness of it. And I pray,

1004
00:34:28.260 –> 00:34:29.780
– you know, in a sick way, I pray

1005
00:34:29.780 –> 00:34:32.114
– that something that ugly never happens to me

1006
00:34:32.355 –> 00:34:34.755
– just because it was so broken for her

1007
00:34:34.755 –> 00:34:36.434
– and so harmful for her and what it

1008
00:34:36.434 –> 00:34:37.574
– did to her. It completely

1009
00:34:37.954 –> 00:34:39.954
– destroyed her as a human being. And I

1010
00:34:39.954 –> 00:34:41.954
– and I I pray nothing like that happens

1011
00:34:41.954 –> 00:34:43.954
– to me because watching what went she went

1012
00:34:43.954 –> 00:34:46.420
– through, I wouldn’t wish that upon anyone. But

1013
00:34:46.420 –> 00:34:47.900
– it makes sense of this because I do

1014
00:34:47.900 –> 00:34:50.219
– think that’s a very real problem, and you’ve

1015
00:34:50.219 –> 00:34:52.859
– lived it yourself. Yeah. So let’s talk through.

1016
00:34:52.859 –> 00:34:54.960
– Right? Let’s say I’m the betraying partner.

1017
00:34:55.260 –> 00:34:57.679
– I’m struggling with empathy. What do I do?

1018
00:34:57.739 –> 00:34:59.765
– So there’s a couple of things. One of

1019
00:34:59.765 –> 00:35:02.164
– them is is perspective taking, we talked about

1020
00:35:02.164 –> 00:35:03.945
– a little bit, put down your telescope,

1021
00:35:04.405 –> 00:35:05.385
– pick up hers.

1022
00:35:05.925 –> 00:35:07.925
– The other thing I recommend is when you’re

1023
00:35:07.925 –> 00:35:10.900
– having conversations and she’s sharing feelings, and I’ll

1024
00:35:10.900 –> 00:35:12.659
– tell my couples, if you’re gonna have a

1025
00:35:12.659 –> 00:35:13.800
– hard conversation,

1026
00:35:14.260 –> 00:35:15.000
– it’s okay

1027
00:35:15.539 –> 00:35:18.199
– to schedule it, it’s okay to sit down

1028
00:35:18.500 –> 00:35:20.820
– and bring something to write with and start

1029
00:35:20.820 –> 00:35:23.639
– out by listening for her feeling words.

1030
00:35:24.155 –> 00:35:26.414
– What is she saying? I’m sad.

1031
00:35:26.875 –> 00:35:30.255
– Right? I’m frustrated. Whatever you’re hearing her say,

1032
00:35:30.394 –> 00:35:33.275
– start to notice that because that’s easy to

1033
00:35:33.275 –> 00:35:36.255
– do. Right? I can listen for that

1034
00:35:36.699 –> 00:35:37.519
– and then

1035
00:35:38.140 –> 00:35:41.280
– listen to what she’s sad or frustrated

1036
00:35:41.579 –> 00:35:42.079
– about.

1037
00:35:43.260 –> 00:35:45.519
– That’s your key. Yeah. Right?

1038
00:35:45.980 –> 00:35:48.619
– And everybody listening, way easier said than than

1039
00:35:48.619 –> 00:35:51.280
– done. Yeah. Yeah. There’s the other thing is

1040
00:35:51.684 –> 00:35:54.244
– you don’t have to agree. Yes. Correct. A

1041
00:35:54.244 –> 00:35:56.505
– lot of us believe that in Yeah. That

1042
00:35:56.885 –> 00:35:59.764
– is a good point. Such a good point.

1043
00:35:59.844 –> 00:36:02.344
– It means that I’m trying to understand you.

1044
00:36:02.484 –> 00:36:04.324
– Yeah. Such a good point. And for my

1045
00:36:04.324 –> 00:36:06.324
– population of high achieving men, what you just

1046
00:36:06.324 –> 00:36:08.880
– said is so important because we take it

1047
00:36:08.880 –> 00:36:10.719
– as a loss and we don’t like to

1048
00:36:10.719 –> 00:36:12.960
– lose. And so if I have to agree

1049
00:36:12.960 –> 00:36:14.719
– with something that I don’t agree with, because

1050
00:36:14.719 –> 00:36:17.280
– there’s a lot of times where they’re saying

1051
00:36:17.280 –> 00:36:17.780
– something

1052
00:36:18.159 –> 00:36:20.295
– that I don’t agree with. I don’t agree

1053
00:36:20.295 –> 00:36:21.655
– with it at all. But in the end,

1054
00:36:21.655 –> 00:36:24.454
– it’s also not really it doesn’t really matter

1055
00:36:24.454 –> 00:36:26.375
– and so I don’t tell her that I

1056
00:36:26.375 –> 00:36:28.295
– disagree, but at the same time, my ego

1057
00:36:28.295 –> 00:36:30.695
– can’t take the loss. And what you’re saying

1058
00:36:30.695 –> 00:36:31.195
– is,

1059
00:36:31.574 –> 00:36:34.380
– stop. It’s not right or wrong. That’s a

1060
00:36:34.380 –> 00:36:37.039
– valid point. That’s a valid way to feel.

1061
00:36:37.420 –> 00:36:39.980
– My actions are absolutely what caused you to

1062
00:36:39.980 –> 00:36:41.659
– feel that way. There is nobody who can

1063
00:36:41.659 –> 00:36:44.699
– refute any of those things. Right? And I

1064
00:36:44.699 –> 00:36:47.144
– also don’t think that I don’t need to

1065
00:36:47.144 –> 00:36:49.945
– validate that I feel that way about you

1066
00:36:49.945 –> 00:36:52.265
– because of my actions, because I don’t. And

1067
00:36:52.265 –> 00:36:54.505
– I never did. Mhmm. But I also understand

1068
00:36:54.505 –> 00:36:56.505
– that you can feel that way. I wanted

1069
00:36:56.505 –> 00:36:58.184
– to give an example. I wanted you to

1070
00:36:58.184 –> 00:37:00.089
– speak to it for me. So because I

1071
00:37:00.089 –> 00:37:02.089
– want to get if everyone understand. So what

1072
00:37:02.089 –> 00:37:04.009
– Debbie is saying here is she’s telling you

1073
00:37:04.009 –> 00:37:05.710
– to listen to the emotion

1074
00:37:06.329 –> 00:37:08.089
– words. Right? So as Debbie was saying, you

1075
00:37:08.089 –> 00:37:10.250
– know, hear her when she’s saying, you know,

1076
00:37:10.250 –> 00:37:12.974
– she’s saying sad, is she’s saying afraid. Here’s

1077
00:37:12.974 –> 00:37:15.454
– the thing, quite often especially with my clients,

1078
00:37:15.454 –> 00:37:17.135
– a lot of high achieving men get with

1079
00:37:17.135 –> 00:37:19.775
– high achieving women and they are kind of

1080
00:37:19.775 –> 00:37:21.454
– a lot more like us than they’re not

1081
00:37:21.454 –> 00:37:23.775
– like us and sometimes they’re also not saying

1082
00:37:23.775 –> 00:37:26.815
– feeling words either because they’re very intellectual as

1083
00:37:26.815 –> 00:37:28.760
– well. So it’s a lot of

1084
00:37:29.140 –> 00:37:31.239
– very well planned executed

1085
00:37:31.539 –> 00:37:33.219
– attack, if you will. And so sometimes there

1086
00:37:33.219 –> 00:37:35.180
– isn’t a lot of feeling words. So here’s

1087
00:37:35.380 –> 00:37:36.660
– I’m gonna give an example. I’d love for

1088
00:37:36.660 –> 00:37:38.420
– you to to use Sue Johnson’s stuff because

1089
00:37:38.420 –> 00:37:40.179
– I do love it. I think within the

1090
00:37:40.179 –> 00:37:42.199
– betrayal dynamic, I think EFT,

1091
00:37:42.744 –> 00:37:44.264
– you can’t get to it too early, but

1092
00:37:44.264 –> 00:37:47.085
– I do think in year after year one

1093
00:37:47.144 –> 00:37:49.144
– or approaching year two, I do think EFT,

1094
00:37:49.144 –> 00:37:50.664
– in my opinion, is the best way to

1095
00:37:50.664 –> 00:37:52.344
– kind of just get to something you guys

1096
00:37:52.344 –> 00:37:54.264
– can work on. So an example of this

1097
00:37:54.264 –> 00:37:55.980
– for the listeners, cause again, she might not

1098
00:37:55.980 –> 00:37:57.900
– be using feeling words. So Debbie, I’d love

1099
00:37:57.900 –> 00:37:59.579
– for you to dissect this. So let’s say

1100
00:37:59.579 –> 00:38:00.239
– my wife

1101
00:38:00.619 –> 00:38:02.880
– comes in and she says, I can’t believe

1102
00:38:03.340 –> 00:38:05.420
– you did this and this and that. I

1103
00:38:05.420 –> 00:38:07.019
– still can’t wrap my head around it. You

1104
00:38:07.019 –> 00:38:08.434
– need to explain it to me. I can’t

1105
00:38:08.434 –> 00:38:10.534
– make sense of it and frankly, I’m enraged

1106
00:38:10.594 –> 00:38:12.195
– every time I think about it. She’s just

1107
00:38:12.195 –> 00:38:14.114
– going, going, going. She wants answers. She wants

1108
00:38:14.114 –> 00:38:16.534
– answers. So she didn’t use any feeling words,

1109
00:38:16.755 –> 00:38:19.335
– right? But I can tell that she so

1110
00:38:19.550 –> 00:38:21.650
– here’s to use EFT,

1111
00:38:22.109 –> 00:38:24.190
– so that’s what we call the content. Right?

1112
00:38:24.190 –> 00:38:26.429
– So below the line would be what’s actually

1113
00:38:26.429 –> 00:38:28.829
– going on. And so, guys, if you can

1114
00:38:29.070 –> 00:38:30.590
– and this is where if you guys can

1115
00:38:30.590 –> 00:38:32.109
– read the Hold Me Tight book from Sue

1116
00:38:32.109 –> 00:38:32.609
– Johnson

1117
00:38:32.909 –> 00:38:34.964
– speaks to this. So, guys, what I had

1118
00:38:34.964 –> 00:38:37.444
– to train myself was because she wasn’t saying

1119
00:38:37.444 –> 00:38:38.824
– necessarily how she felt.

1120
00:38:39.204 –> 00:38:40.964
– So if I stopped at the content, Debbie,

1121
00:38:40.964 –> 00:38:43.125
– I would now be having a conversation about

1122
00:38:43.125 –> 00:38:44.565
– what I did and trying to explain it.

1123
00:38:44.565 –> 00:38:46.324
– And here’s the thing, the answer she ain’t

1124
00:38:46.324 –> 00:38:48.244
– gonna like. Because what’s the answer? Half the

1125
00:38:48.244 –> 00:38:50.630
– time is, I don’t know, she was attractive

1126
00:38:50.769 –> 00:38:52.769
– and it looked like a novel experience that

1127
00:38:52.769 –> 00:38:54.609
– I wanted to engage in. I liked her

1128
00:38:54.609 –> 00:38:56.210
– attention and I thought I could get away

1129
00:38:56.210 –> 00:38:57.730
– with it. So I popped my ring off

1130
00:38:57.730 –> 00:38:59.489
– and I did it. You think that answer’s

1131
00:38:59.489 –> 00:39:01.409
– gonna make her feel it is absolutely not

1132
00:39:01.409 –> 00:39:03.105
– gonna make her feel better. She’s gonna get

1133
00:39:03.184 –> 00:39:04.784
– twice as mad. You seem like, so you’re

1134
00:39:04.784 –> 00:39:06.704
– basically just an a hole. And I’m gonna

1135
00:39:06.704 –> 00:39:08.864
– say, yeah, pretty much, I guess. Right? So

1136
00:39:08.864 –> 00:39:10.704
– that conversation never went. So if she’s not

1137
00:39:10.704 –> 00:39:12.864
– using feeling words, guys, what you have to

1138
00:39:12.864 –> 00:39:15.425
– understand is there’s really few things that humans

1139
00:39:15.425 –> 00:39:15.925
– feel.

1140
00:39:16.449 –> 00:39:19.250
– And in the end, what she’s saying without

1141
00:39:19.250 –> 00:39:20.309
– saying it is,

1142
00:39:20.849 –> 00:39:23.730
– I felt like you don’t want me anymore.

1143
00:39:23.730 –> 00:39:25.730
– I feel like you want other women more

1144
00:39:25.730 –> 00:39:27.590
– than me. I feel like I’m unattractive

1145
00:39:27.890 –> 00:39:29.809
– to you that you’re bored with me and

1146
00:39:29.809 –> 00:39:31.905
– I just feel discarded like a total after

1147
00:39:31.905 –> 00:39:34.385
– thought. Now she didn’t say that, but that

1148
00:39:34.385 –> 00:39:36.724
– is what she’s essentially saying is,

1149
00:39:37.105 –> 00:39:39.664
– how can I fix myself so that you

1150
00:39:39.664 –> 00:39:41.824
– don’t go do what you did again? Oh,

1151
00:39:41.824 –> 00:39:43.284
– man. Making me emotional

1152
00:39:43.585 –> 00:39:45.380
– saying that because that is not what I

1153
00:39:45.380 –> 00:39:46.900
– did. That is not what I meant to

1154
00:39:46.900 –> 00:39:48.420
– make her feel. And I’ll tell you what,

1155
00:39:48.420 –> 00:39:50.820
– guys. If she’s asking all that stuff, you

1156
00:39:50.820 –> 00:39:52.099
– clam up. You don’t know how to explain

1157
00:39:52.099 –> 00:39:53.219
– yourself. But I tell you what, you know

1158
00:39:53.219 –> 00:39:54.579
– what I do know how to speak to,

1159
00:39:54.579 –> 00:39:55.079
– Debbie?

1160
00:39:55.460 –> 00:39:57.320
– Mhmm. What I just heard.

1161
00:39:57.684 –> 00:39:59.284
– Yeah. I feel like you want other I

1162
00:39:59.284 –> 00:40:00.804
– feel like you’re bored with me. I feel

1163
00:40:00.804 –> 00:40:02.324
– like you’re ready to move on. I feel

1164
00:40:02.324 –> 00:40:04.804
– like you’re uninterested. You’re unattracted to me and

1165
00:40:04.804 –> 00:40:06.005
– and you don’t care about me and you

1166
00:40:06.005 –> 00:40:08.085
– can discard me and just replace me with

1167
00:40:08.085 –> 00:40:08.904
– someone else.

1168
00:40:09.204 –> 00:40:12.110
– That I have words for. I absolutely have

1169
00:40:12.110 –> 00:40:13.710
– words for that. And I can say them

1170
00:40:13.710 –> 00:40:16.269
– in an empathetic genuine way because if I

1171
00:40:16.269 –> 00:40:18.510
– hear my wife say that to me, that

1172
00:40:18.510 –> 00:40:20.430
– just breaks my heart and I never imagined

1173
00:40:20.430 –> 00:40:21.630
– being in a marriage where that would be

1174
00:40:21.630 –> 00:40:22.769
– said to me. So

1175
00:40:23.204 –> 00:40:25.045
– sometimes feelings won’t come out and you guys

1176
00:40:25.045 –> 00:40:27.785
– really need to flex the muscle of underneath

1177
00:40:27.844 –> 00:40:30.085
– all of this, what’s actually being communicated to

1178
00:40:30.085 –> 00:40:31.684
– me? And sometimes, guys, that can be done

1179
00:40:31.684 –> 00:40:33.605
– during a pause. You know, oftentimes people are

1180
00:40:33.605 –> 00:40:34.805
– like, oh, what do I do during a

1181
00:40:34.805 –> 00:40:36.325
– pause? Because some people take the pause and

1182
00:40:36.325 –> 00:40:38.405
– they just stew and ruminate and and that’s

1183
00:40:38.405 –> 00:40:40.789
– not and that’s also not so maybe during

1184
00:40:40.789 –> 00:40:42.010
– the pause, ask yourself,

1185
00:40:42.469 –> 00:40:45.030
– what is she actually feeling? And Debbie too,

1186
00:40:45.030 –> 00:40:46.869
– if you can help guys, what are those,

1187
00:40:46.869 –> 00:40:48.550
– like, core because you’re certified in all this

1188
00:40:48.550 –> 00:40:51.110
– stuff. What are those, like, core very few

1189
00:40:51.110 –> 00:40:51.610
– feelings?

1190
00:40:52.135 –> 00:40:53.655
– Abandonment. I mean, there’s not that much that

1191
00:40:53.655 –> 00:40:55.894
– people Well, when we get really basic, we’re

1192
00:40:55.894 –> 00:40:58.155
– really talking about fear, loneliness,

1193
00:40:58.855 –> 00:40:59.355
– happy,

1194
00:40:59.894 –> 00:41:03.414
– sad, and anger. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Really? But

1195
00:41:03.414 –> 00:41:06.160
– if you don’t know, you can always say,

1196
00:41:06.160 –> 00:41:08.260
– I can see your distress. Yeah. Mhmm.

1197
00:41:08.719 –> 00:41:11.119
– And I imagine, right, and think about it,

1198
00:41:11.119 –> 00:41:13.059
– you’ve heard her say, right?

1199
00:41:13.519 –> 00:41:15.760
– I imagine you’re also really sad and even

1200
00:41:15.760 –> 00:41:16.260
– angry.

1201
00:41:16.559 –> 00:41:18.800
– But I think the important thing is when

1202
00:41:18.800 –> 00:41:20.500
– you see your partner like that,

1203
00:41:20.875 –> 00:41:22.255
– first of all, acknowledge

1204
00:41:22.635 –> 00:41:23.375
– their pain.

1205
00:41:23.755 –> 00:41:25.215
– Acknowledge, I can see

1206
00:41:25.594 –> 00:41:26.414
– you’re experiencing

1207
00:41:26.875 –> 00:41:29.515
– a lot of distress right now. You’re really

1208
00:41:29.515 –> 00:41:32.175
– pained because I did this to you.

1209
00:41:32.555 –> 00:41:33.695
– I left the marriage.

1210
00:41:34.199 –> 00:41:36.460
– I’ve led you to believe by my actions

1211
00:41:37.000 –> 00:41:39.179
– that I wanted somebody besides you,

1212
00:41:39.480 –> 00:41:41.559
– and that makes you feel sad. And then

1213
00:41:41.559 –> 00:41:44.519
– reassure them about how you’re in it. And

1214
00:41:44.519 –> 00:41:46.440
– I’m doing my recovery, and I’m going to

1215
00:41:46.440 –> 00:41:49.005
– my groups with Roland. And I am, right,

1216
00:41:49.005 –> 00:41:50.944
– because I wanna make sure

1217
00:41:51.244 –> 00:41:53.264
– that I do all the work necessary.

1218
00:41:54.284 –> 00:41:56.065
– Right? So that I can show you

1219
00:41:56.364 –> 00:41:58.444
– I’m in it a 100%. Yes. Because I

1220
00:41:58.444 –> 00:42:00.444
– mean, ultimately, that’s what they’re asking for. Right,

1221
00:42:00.444 –> 00:42:01.884
– Debbie? I mean, the the what she wants

1222
00:42:01.884 –> 00:42:03.005
– to hear. And that’s why I was telling

1223
00:42:03.005 –> 00:42:04.125
– you guys, if you guys can get below

1224
00:42:04.125 –> 00:42:06.019
– the line, I don’t know a guy in

1225
00:42:06.019 –> 00:42:07.860
– any of my groups, including if he’s like

1226
00:42:07.860 –> 00:42:09.320
– a one week in my group,

1227
00:42:09.940 –> 00:42:12.099
– brand new. I don’t know a guy who

1228
00:42:12.099 –> 00:42:14.900
– can’t speak to, I feel like you want

1229
00:42:14.900 –> 00:42:17.059
– other women more. I feel like you’re bored

1230
00:42:17.059 –> 00:42:18.659
– with me and you’re ready to replace me

1231
00:42:18.659 –> 00:42:19.940
– at any second. I don’t know a guy

1232
00:42:19.940 –> 00:42:21.385
– who can’t speak to that. A guy I

1233
00:42:21.385 –> 00:42:23.144
– can speak to and say, I am here

1234
00:42:23.144 –> 00:42:24.744
– and I am setting up for anything and

1235
00:42:24.744 –> 00:42:27.065
– everything and I’m willing to make endless amounts

1236
00:42:27.065 –> 00:42:27.724
– of sacrifices

1237
00:42:28.184 –> 00:42:30.184
– because I care about you. You’re the one

1238
00:42:30.184 –> 00:42:31.704
– I pick. You’re the one I choose. You’re

1239
00:42:31.704 –> 00:42:32.984
– the one I married. You’re the one I

1240
00:42:32.984 –> 00:42:34.739
– wanna stay married to. I have all the

1241
00:42:34.739 –> 00:42:35.940
– answers for that. I could keep going. If

1242
00:42:35.940 –> 00:42:37.140
– she wanted me to go for another, like,

1243
00:42:37.140 –> 00:42:39.539
– twenty five minutes, I can keep going about

1244
00:42:39.539 –> 00:42:41.860
– why she’s the one that I want, why

1245
00:42:41.860 –> 00:42:43.539
– that she’s the one that I pick. And

1246
00:42:43.539 –> 00:42:44.519
– that’s not me

1247
00:42:44.900 –> 00:42:45.400
– discrediting

1248
00:42:45.780 –> 00:42:48.099
– her. Again, that’s just me speaking from my

1249
00:42:48.099 –> 00:42:49.474
– heart. Right? And I think that’s what guys

1250
00:42:49.474 –> 00:42:50.515
– need to do too is you gotta be

1251
00:42:50.515 –> 00:42:51.735
– careful not to defend

1252
00:42:52.035 –> 00:42:53.255
– why she’s wrong.

1253
00:42:53.715 –> 00:42:55.474
– And that’s a very common mistake that guys

1254
00:42:55.474 –> 00:42:57.155
– do. You know, let me prove to you

1255
00:42:57.155 –> 00:42:59.795
– why I chose you. It’s like, no. That’s

1256
00:42:59.795 –> 00:43:01.954
– not the point. The point is show her

1257
00:43:01.954 –> 00:43:02.535
– the evidence

1258
00:43:03.239 –> 00:43:04.380
– of not not not defense.

1259
00:43:04.760 –> 00:43:06.760
– Just speak your heart. I am here. I

1260
00:43:06.760 –> 00:43:08.360
– choose you. I wanna die. I wanna grow

1261
00:43:08.360 –> 00:43:10.300
– old with you. I wanna do this together.

1262
00:43:10.360 –> 00:43:12.199
– I’ve never envisioned a world where we wouldn’t

1263
00:43:12.199 –> 00:43:13.960
– be together. These are the things she wants

1264
00:43:13.960 –> 00:43:15.675
– to hear. As we wrap this up, Debbie,

1265
00:43:15.675 –> 00:43:17.195
– what’s the final thing you would say? Really

1266
00:43:17.195 –> 00:43:19.114
– to the couple. I mean, because this gets

1267
00:43:19.114 –> 00:43:21.055
– hard, Debbie. There are times where

1268
00:43:21.515 –> 00:43:24.315
– both partners just thoughts of giving up. I

1269
00:43:24.315 –> 00:43:26.474
– mean, they’re just inches away. What would you

1270
00:43:26.474 –> 00:43:28.829
– tell people with this? Because it is. The

1271
00:43:28.829 –> 00:43:31.170
– the quit is real and it becomes sometimes

1272
00:43:31.470 –> 00:43:33.470
– almost what seems like the right option is

1273
00:43:33.470 –> 00:43:34.990
– just to walk away. How do you get

1274
00:43:34.990 –> 00:43:37.890
– back to some functional conversations like this? Well,

1275
00:43:38.030 –> 00:43:40.190
– we’ve got to remember that none of us

1276
00:43:40.190 –> 00:43:41.710
– or most of us were not taught how

1277
00:43:41.710 –> 00:43:42.930
– to effectively communicate.

1278
00:43:43.364 –> 00:43:45.844
– Right? We didn’t experience I’m sorry. Childhood. Yeah.

1279
00:43:45.844 –> 00:43:47.625
– We didn’t know how to do relationships.

1280
00:43:48.005 –> 00:43:49.784
– Right? But now we’ve got a relationship

1281
00:43:50.164 –> 00:43:51.144
– that’s in distress.

1282
00:43:51.684 –> 00:43:54.085
– Right? Where there’s been betrayal. So here’s my

1283
00:43:54.085 –> 00:43:54.585
– recommendation.

1284
00:43:55.605 –> 00:43:57.784
– Find the right couples therapist

1285
00:43:58.699 –> 00:44:01.759
– who really understands empathy, who’s got good communication

1286
00:44:02.059 –> 00:44:04.380
– skills and tools. I do believe that the

1287
00:44:04.380 –> 00:44:06.559
– therapist needs to have to some degree

1288
00:44:07.019 –> 00:44:08.480
– even kind of a solution

1289
00:44:09.179 –> 00:44:10.319
– focused approach

1290
00:44:10.764 –> 00:44:13.025
– because we’re dealing with couples in crisis.

1291
00:44:13.324 –> 00:44:13.824
– Relationship

1292
00:44:14.525 –> 00:44:16.385
– where there’s been a fractured attachment.

1293
00:44:17.005 –> 00:44:17.824
– And so

1294
00:44:18.125 –> 00:44:20.125
– get in there, do the work. I make

1295
00:44:20.125 –> 00:44:21.664
– my couples do experiential

1296
00:44:21.965 –> 00:44:23.425
– things in session.

1297
00:44:23.820 –> 00:44:26.640
– We talk through these things. We’re practicing empathy.

1298
00:44:26.780 –> 00:44:27.599
– We’re identifying

1299
00:44:28.380 –> 00:44:31.340
– what the betrayed partner needs to hear and

1300
00:44:31.340 –> 00:44:33.519
– how the betraying partner can say it.

1301
00:44:33.820 –> 00:44:37.304
– So don’t put off doing couples work. Yes,

1302
00:44:37.304 –> 00:44:38.664
– we need a little bit of time in

1303
00:44:38.664 –> 00:44:40.984
– the early days to establish the healing and

1304
00:44:40.984 –> 00:44:41.644
– the recovery,

1305
00:44:42.025 –> 00:44:43.885
– but finding the right therapist

1306
00:44:44.505 –> 00:44:46.525
– with the right training, the right credentials

1307
00:44:46.824 –> 00:44:48.045
– is really

1308
00:44:48.505 –> 00:44:49.405
– really helpful

1309
00:44:49.980 –> 00:44:51.440
– in keeping the relationship

1310
00:44:51.900 –> 00:44:52.880
– moving forward

1311
00:44:53.579 –> 00:44:55.119
– even when there is

1312
00:44:55.659 –> 00:44:57.199
– so many different layers

1313
00:44:57.739 –> 00:44:59.659
– that you’re dealing with. It’s so true to

1314
00:44:59.659 –> 00:45:01.659
– everybody hear what she said and I love

1315
00:45:01.659 –> 00:45:03.280
– that you said solution because

1316
00:45:03.714 –> 00:45:06.594
– it’s not couples therapy really for I mean,

1317
00:45:06.594 –> 00:45:08.514
– sometimes the first year. I mean, you know,

1318
00:45:08.514 –> 00:45:11.074
– there’s some splashes and sprinkles of some couples

1319
00:45:11.074 –> 00:45:13.014
– therapy, but I mean, it is very

1320
00:45:13.474 –> 00:45:15.094
– crisis management solutions,

1321
00:45:15.890 –> 00:45:18.289
– calling people out, calling the betrayed partner out

1322
00:45:18.289 –> 00:45:19.809
– for, hey, you can’t do that. That’s not

1323
00:45:19.809 –> 00:45:22.449
– healthy. Calling the betrayer out, hey, you gotta

1324
00:45:22.449 –> 00:45:24.130
– cut that crap out. That’s the fast track

1325
00:45:24.130 –> 00:45:25.730
– to divorce if you keep doing, you know.

1326
00:45:25.730 –> 00:45:28.130
– It’s not comfortable. It is in many ways.

1327
00:45:28.130 –> 00:45:30.289
– Yeah. It’s it’s not very therapeutic. It is

1328
00:45:30.289 –> 00:45:32.885
– just this process of how the heck do

1329
00:45:32.885 –> 00:45:34.164
– we make it. But I agree with you,

1330
00:45:34.164 –> 00:45:35.764
– Debbie. This is you know, so many people

1331
00:45:35.764 –> 00:45:37.364
– are like, oh, you know, the especially the

1332
00:45:37.364 –> 00:45:40.005
– betrayed partners. I’m not going to couples therapy

1333
00:45:40.005 –> 00:45:42.005
– with you. I don’t like bonding with you.

1334
00:45:42.005 –> 00:45:43.525
– There was nothing wrong with the marriage until

1335
00:45:43.525 –> 00:45:45.530
– you screwed it up. I love what you

1336
00:45:45.530 –> 00:45:47.389
– said. There are still solutions

1337
00:45:48.090 –> 00:45:49.769
– that the two of you need in this

1338
00:45:49.769 –> 00:45:52.030
– time, and you need to go see somebody

1339
00:45:52.090 –> 00:45:54.650
– who’s, in my opinion, dang good at giving

1340
00:45:54.650 –> 00:45:56.650
– these solutions. I often say, oh, you know,

1341
00:45:56.650 –> 00:45:58.409
– most therapists should be able to hit. But

1342
00:45:58.409 –> 00:46:00.375
– I I do wonder if you don’t see

1343
00:46:00.375 –> 00:46:01.994
– somebody who works with betrayed

1344
00:46:02.375 –> 00:46:02.875
– couples

1345
00:46:03.175 –> 00:46:05.914
– and has experience with that specific dynamic.

1346
00:46:06.454 –> 00:46:08.695
– It is such a unique dynamic. If I

1347
00:46:08.695 –> 00:46:10.614
– mean, gosh, if you haven’t seen it over

1348
00:46:10.614 –> 00:46:12.440
– and over and or lived it, I don’t

1349
00:46:12.440 –> 00:46:14.519
– think you could ever understand the magnitude of

1350
00:46:14.519 –> 00:46:16.760
– it. So last thing, Debbie, if somebody wanted

1351
00:46:16.760 –> 00:46:17.880
– to work with you, how do you work

1352
00:46:17.880 –> 00:46:20.280
– with couples? Do you do intensives, in person,

1353
00:46:20.280 –> 00:46:22.280
– virtual? Where are you licensed? How do people

1354
00:46:22.280 –> 00:46:23.640
– find you and work with you? Well, I’m

1355
00:46:23.640 –> 00:46:25.820
– in the state of Arizona, so I’m licensed

1356
00:46:25.880 –> 00:46:29.105
– here. I’m also a licensed professional coach, so

1357
00:46:29.105 –> 00:46:31.105
– I can work outside. So I work in

1358
00:46:31.105 –> 00:46:32.164
– person in Zoom.

1359
00:46:32.465 –> 00:46:34.304
– And so my work is one on one

1360
00:46:34.304 –> 00:46:36.304
– at this point. I do have groups for

1361
00:46:36.304 –> 00:46:40.144
– betrayed partners. Oh, cool. Barely couple sensitive and

1362
00:46:40.144 –> 00:46:42.324
– we’re really working on helping them

1363
00:46:42.760 –> 00:46:44.840
– manage the crisis that shows up even in

1364
00:46:44.840 –> 00:46:46.360
– the couple shows. That’s great. So I do

1365
00:46:46.360 –> 00:46:48.360
– want us to speak to that too because

1366
00:46:48.360 –> 00:46:49.480
– one of the things, at least for the

1367
00:46:49.480 –> 00:46:51.960
– betrayed wives in my groups, they don’t want

1368
00:46:51.960 –> 00:46:54.360
– to wallow in the negativity. They really want

1369
00:46:54.360 –> 00:46:55.260
– to take ownership

1370
00:46:55.720 –> 00:46:56.220
– over

1371
00:46:56.675 –> 00:46:57.335
– their emotions,

1372
00:46:57.795 –> 00:46:59.715
– what needs to be done. They wanna really

1373
00:46:59.715 –> 00:47:01.094
– leave the complaining

1374
00:47:01.394 –> 00:47:03.715
– about the husband’s behavior out of it. From

1375
00:47:03.715 –> 00:47:05.474
– what I know of you, you’ll police that

1376
00:47:05.474 –> 00:47:07.234
– pretty well. Is it a safe group from

1377
00:47:07.234 –> 00:47:09.155
– that? Because again, that’s their point is it’s

1378
00:47:09.155 –> 00:47:10.469
– I want to try to heal this. I

1379
00:47:10.469 –> 00:47:12.309
– don’t wanna stay stuck in what he did

1380
00:47:12.309 –> 00:47:13.829
– to me. That was him. That was his

1381
00:47:13.829 –> 00:47:15.849
– problem. That has nothing to do with me.

1382
00:47:15.989 –> 00:47:17.269
– I need to figure out what I’m gonna

1383
00:47:17.269 –> 00:47:18.710
– do. It sounds like that’s kind of the

1384
00:47:18.710 –> 00:47:20.650
– container that you create. Yes? Absolutely.

1385
00:47:20.949 –> 00:47:23.585
– Wonderful. My clients and my group members know

1386
00:47:23.585 –> 00:47:25.184
– that we’re not there to do common enemy

1387
00:47:25.184 –> 00:47:27.764
– intimacy where we’re bashing on the betraying partner.

1388
00:47:28.144 –> 00:47:30.704
– Right? We can bring in situations that we’re

1389
00:47:30.704 –> 00:47:33.505
– dealing with, and we’re gonna process and work

1390
00:47:33.505 –> 00:47:34.565
– through and identify

1391
00:47:35.079 –> 00:47:36.599
– how you can manage it in a healthy

1392
00:47:36.599 –> 00:47:38.599
– way. In healthy way. Yeah. We can’t heal

1393
00:47:38.599 –> 00:47:39.819
– if we stay stuck,

1394
00:47:40.199 –> 00:47:42.699
– right, in that space of I’m a victim

1395
00:47:43.000 –> 00:47:45.019
– because he or she did this to me.

1396
00:47:45.159 –> 00:47:47.000
– No. And and can they find those groups

1397
00:47:47.000 –> 00:47:48.679
– on your website? Is that a thing that

1398
00:47:48.679 –> 00:47:50.545
– they can find? Great. Awesome, Debbie. That’s wonderful

1399
00:47:50.545 –> 00:47:52.304
– to hear. Yeah. These ladies need groups. I

1400
00:47:52.304 –> 00:47:54.224
– know it’s it’s intimidating some time to do

1401
00:47:54.224 –> 00:47:55.985
– it, but I don’t know. We’re tribal creatures,

1402
00:47:55.985 –> 00:47:57.905
– humans. We can’t heal from something this big

1403
00:47:57.905 –> 00:47:59.744
– alone. I really believe that. It’s not I

1404
00:47:59.744 –> 00:48:01.585
– don’t think it’s possible. You need a tribe

1405
00:48:01.585 –> 00:48:03.639
– around you. Yeah. We can’t. Well, this was

1406
00:48:03.639 –> 00:48:05.420
– so wonderful, Debbie. Thank you for your time.

1407
00:48:05.719 –> 00:48:06.460
– You’re welcome.

1408
00:48:07.880 –> 00:48:10.039
– Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1409
00:48:10.039 –> 00:48:11.880
– are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1410
00:48:11.880 –> 00:48:13.559
– and you’re looking for a recovery group full

1411
00:48:13.559 –> 00:48:16.675
– of like minded men, visit successfulladdict.com.

1412
00:48:16.675 –> 00:48:19.554
– We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1413
00:48:19.554 –> 00:48:20.775
– using four day retreats,

1414
00:48:21.155 –> 00:48:23.954
– weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1415
00:48:23.954 –> 00:48:26.194
– If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1416
00:48:26.194 –> 00:48:28.114
– save your marriage, go to our website and

1417
00:48:28.114 –> 00:48:29.014
– fill out our application.

1418
00:48:29.394 –> 00:48:31.839
– If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1419
00:48:31.839 –> 00:48:33.440
– along to a friend in recovery who would

1420
00:48:33.440 –> 00:48:35.440
– benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1421
00:48:35.440 –> 00:48:37.119
– get this information out to as many high

1422
00:48:37.119 –> 00:48:39.359
– achievers as possible, and I can’t do it

1423
00:48:39.359 –> 00:48:40.339
– without your help.