1
00:00:00.240 –> 00:00:02.319
– You and your wife have to be two

2
00:00:02.319 –> 00:00:04.740
– people who have to own their own maturity

3
00:00:04.799 –> 00:00:07.120
– and own their own healing work to say

4
00:00:07.120 –> 00:00:09.199
– we’re choosing to be with each other. And

5
00:00:09.199 –> 00:00:11.359
– with her knowledge of knowing that, yes, he

6
00:00:11.359 –> 00:00:13.199
– admitted this is entitlement and he’s he did

7
00:00:13.199 –> 00:00:14.714
– all the things, But at any point, he

8
00:00:14.714 –> 00:00:16.574
– can make that choice to do it again,

9
00:00:16.875 –> 00:00:18.475
– as I also can make a choice to

10
00:00:18.475 –> 00:00:20.015
– leave and not be in this relationship.

11
00:00:20.475 –> 00:00:22.394
– So I think when we look at real

12
00:00:22.394 –> 00:00:24.635
– honesty, it takes a lot of internal work.

13
00:00:24.635 –> 00:00:26.234
– The fastest way to lose you know, I

14
00:00:26.234 –> 00:00:28.410
– would say a marriage is keep managing the

15
00:00:28.489 –> 00:00:29.550
– other person’s perception

16
00:00:29.929 –> 00:00:31.550
– instead of doing your own internal

17
00:00:31.929 –> 00:00:32.429
– work.

18
00:00:34.969 –> 00:00:37.130
– You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

19
00:00:37.130 –> 00:00:40.350
– for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

20
00:00:40.729 –> 00:00:43.375
– This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

21
00:00:43.375 –> 00:00:46.574
– recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

22
00:00:46.574 –> 00:00:49.614
– high achiever. I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder

23
00:00:49.614 –> 00:00:51.854
– of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for

24
00:00:51.854 –> 00:00:54.094
– high achieving men struggling with sex and porn

25
00:00:54.094 –> 00:00:56.655
– addiction. For more information about joining our group

26
00:00:56.655 –> 00:01:00.250
– or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

27
00:01:00.250 –> 00:01:02.429
– And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

28
00:01:04.650 –> 00:01:06.810
– Are you a sex addict? Or are you

29
00:01:06.810 –> 00:01:08.729
– just a chronic cheater? Or maybe just an

30
00:01:08.729 –> 00:01:11.954
– asshole? Right? All these questions are valid, but

31
00:01:12.034 –> 00:01:14.295
– we nearly need to determine the answer because

32
00:01:14.594 –> 00:01:16.275
– whether you are one or the other, it

33
00:01:16.275 –> 00:01:18.915
– does determine how you’re going to go seek

34
00:01:18.915 –> 00:01:21.155
– treatment. And it also determines how you and

35
00:01:21.155 –> 00:01:22.834
– your partner, for the married men who have

36
00:01:22.834 –> 00:01:24.915
– betrayed their wives, it determines how you and

37
00:01:24.915 –> 00:01:26.935
– your partner are going to choose to navigate

38
00:01:27.075 –> 00:01:29.069
– the path forward. And in this episode, I

39
00:01:29.069 –> 00:01:31.069
– bring in Doctor. Janie Lacy. She was on

40
00:01:31.069 –> 00:01:33.310
– my podcast before. She is such a great

41
00:01:33.310 –> 00:01:35.150
– speaker. She’s such a wealth of knowledge. But

42
00:01:35.150 –> 00:01:37.630
– Janie really speaks to this issue. Right? Are

43
00:01:37.630 –> 00:01:39.469
– you a sex addict or are you just

44
00:01:39.469 –> 00:01:40.370
– a chronic cheater?

45
00:01:40.674 –> 00:01:42.674
– We’re back together. Gosh, our episode. I looked

46
00:01:42.674 –> 00:01:43.954
– at the calendar. I think it was two

47
00:01:43.954 –> 00:01:45.155
– years ago. Oh my gosh, I felt like

48
00:01:45.155 –> 00:01:46.435
– it was last year. I think the last

49
00:01:46.435 –> 00:01:47.635
– time I saw you too was at the

50
00:01:47.635 –> 00:01:50.194
– ITEP conference. But nonetheless, here we are talking

51
00:01:50.194 –> 00:01:51.954
– about something I think you and I are

52
00:01:51.954 –> 00:01:54.614
– both passionate about. And that’s this whole concept

53
00:01:54.915 –> 00:01:57.049
– of know, it’s a touchy subject for sure.

54
00:01:57.049 –> 00:01:59.450
– There’s gonna be some ruffled feathers for especially

55
00:01:59.450 –> 00:02:01.129
– the maybe the partner is hearing this. It

56
00:02:01.129 –> 00:02:02.489
– might go against some of the stuff that

57
00:02:02.489 –> 00:02:04.170
– you’ve heard or you’re used to hearing, but

58
00:02:04.170 –> 00:02:05.629
– let’s get right into it. Dani,

59
00:02:06.009 –> 00:02:06.750
– how come

60
00:02:07.450 –> 00:02:08.590
– desire become

61
00:02:08.965 –> 00:02:11.125
– sexual desire? Let’s just say it straight up,

62
00:02:11.125 –> 00:02:13.844
– women outside of your of your marriage. How

63
00:02:13.844 –> 00:02:16.264
– come this desire is all sudden pathologized

64
00:02:16.965 –> 00:02:18.884
– when let’s say, you know, a couple years

65
00:02:18.884 –> 00:02:21.284
– before when you weren’t married, you did not

66
00:02:21.284 –> 00:02:22.185
– have a pathology.

67
00:02:22.790 –> 00:02:24.870
– Right? And kind of defining the difference between

68
00:02:24.870 –> 00:02:27.510
– a contract that you have now chosen to

69
00:02:27.510 –> 00:02:30.710
– participate in versus something that’s pathological. Can you

70
00:02:30.710 –> 00:02:32.550
– kinda speak to that for the audience, the

71
00:02:32.550 –> 00:02:34.550
– the difference between the two? You know, when

72
00:02:34.550 –> 00:02:37.265
– I think about your thought behind that, I

73
00:02:37.265 –> 00:02:40.405
– think what I’ve seen, especially in these past,

74
00:02:40.625 –> 00:02:42.385
– I would say ten years, maybe even more

75
00:02:42.385 –> 00:02:42.885
– recently,

76
00:02:43.344 –> 00:02:45.585
– Roland, is that, you know, we’ve built a

77
00:02:45.585 –> 00:02:46.085
– culture,

78
00:02:46.545 –> 00:02:48.145
– I would say, hence the name of your

79
00:02:48.145 –> 00:02:50.145
– podcast. But I think we’ve built a culture

80
00:02:50.145 –> 00:02:50.965
– where addict

81
00:02:51.280 –> 00:02:54.340
– is the only confession that actually sounds forgivable.

82
00:02:54.560 –> 00:02:56.080
– Right? And then I know to your point,

83
00:02:56.080 –> 00:02:58.419
– yeah, it’s probably gonna ruffle some feathers. But

84
00:02:58.479 –> 00:03:00.879
– if a man says something like let’s say,

85
00:03:00.879 –> 00:03:03.360
– I’ve acted out of entitlement or desire, and

86
00:03:03.360 –> 00:03:04.739
– that sounds like a choice,

87
00:03:05.120 –> 00:03:06.739
– and a choice feels like,

88
00:03:07.384 –> 00:03:08.344
– you know, I would say with some of

89
00:03:08.344 –> 00:03:10.044
– my clients, it feels like it’s unforgivable.

90
00:03:10.344 –> 00:03:12.044
– But if he says, I’m an addict,

91
00:03:12.344 –> 00:03:14.985
– that sounds like something that happened to him

92
00:03:14.985 –> 00:03:17.384
– instead of something he did. And I think

93
00:03:17.465 –> 00:03:19.144
– here’s what I tell some of my men

94
00:03:19.144 –> 00:03:21.250
– clients that they don’t need and I’m saying

95
00:03:21.250 –> 00:03:23.009
– this as a licensed therapist. Right? That you

96
00:03:23.009 –> 00:03:23.990
– don’t need a diagnosis

97
00:03:24.610 –> 00:03:26.689
– to be worthy of help. Right? But I

98
00:03:26.689 –> 00:03:27.509
– think sometimes

99
00:03:27.810 –> 00:03:29.909
– for spouses or partners

100
00:03:30.610 –> 00:03:32.469
– to make sense of what has happened

101
00:03:33.194 –> 00:03:35.675
– can fit a certain narrative because then that

102
00:03:35.675 –> 00:03:37.514
– means you’re repairable. If you have a headache,

103
00:03:37.514 –> 00:03:39.034
– I can give you aspirin. If you have

104
00:03:39.034 –> 00:03:40.474
– an aspirin, then you don’t have a headache

105
00:03:40.474 –> 00:03:42.314
– anymore. Right? So if you have a sex

106
00:03:42.314 –> 00:03:44.474
– addiction, we know there’s a treatment for that,

107
00:03:44.474 –> 00:03:45.835
– and then perhaps you won’t have a sex

108
00:03:45.835 –> 00:03:48.080
– addiction anymore. Right? And I’m making it very,

109
00:03:48.080 –> 00:03:50.639
– very simple. But it’s important that for men,

110
00:03:50.639 –> 00:03:52.400
– what I they don’t have to prove that

111
00:03:52.400 –> 00:03:55.539
– they’re sick enough to deserve to change. Right?

112
00:03:55.599 –> 00:03:57.520
– You know? So what they actually need is

113
00:03:57.520 –> 00:03:58.739
– the courage to tell

114
00:03:59.235 –> 00:04:02.194
– the truth. Like, even when the truth, Rowan,

115
00:04:02.194 –> 00:04:04.835
– is less comfortable than the label. The reason

116
00:04:04.835 –> 00:04:06.935
– why, you know, when you’re looking at desire

117
00:04:07.075 –> 00:04:09.555
– or the reason behind even cheating, why it

118
00:04:09.555 –> 00:04:12.030
– even actually matters or does the the reason

119
00:04:12.030 –> 00:04:14.210
– even matter? I would say from a clinician

120
00:04:14.270 –> 00:04:14.770
– standpoint,

121
00:04:15.229 –> 00:04:16.449
– it matters clinically,

122
00:04:16.830 –> 00:04:17.569
– but ultimately,

123
00:04:17.949 –> 00:04:20.269
– that’s it. Right? It shapes how we build

124
00:04:20.269 –> 00:04:22.670
– a treatment plan from a sex act to

125
00:04:22.670 –> 00:04:25.069
– cheating or desire. So describe that further because

126
00:04:25.069 –> 00:04:26.430
– I know a lot of people listening are

127
00:04:26.430 –> 00:04:28.875
– gonna wanna know what’s the difference. So let’s

128
00:04:28.875 –> 00:04:30.794
– say somebody does fall into more of an

129
00:04:30.794 –> 00:04:33.995
– addictive or compulsive category versus somebody who has

130
00:04:33.995 –> 00:04:35.915
– kinda just slept with women his whole life

131
00:04:35.915 –> 00:04:37.915
– and enjoys the validation that he gets from

132
00:04:37.915 –> 00:04:39.355
– it. Can you describe and again, you don’t

133
00:04:39.355 –> 00:04:40.540
– need to go into details, But just for

134
00:04:40.540 –> 00:04:42.180
– the so for the partners listening to this,

135
00:04:42.180 –> 00:04:44.259
– they wanna know, alright, what’s the difference in

136
00:04:44.259 –> 00:04:46.199
– a treatment plan, high level.

137
00:04:46.819 –> 00:04:48.900
– Well, very high level. And you just said

138
00:04:48.900 –> 00:04:50.580
– it. Right? In the sense that if we’re

139
00:04:50.580 –> 00:04:53.720
– looking at someone against sex addiction, sexual compulsivity

140
00:04:53.939 –> 00:04:55.080
– is not in the DSM.

141
00:04:55.435 –> 00:04:57.055
– But if we look at the

142
00:04:57.514 –> 00:05:00.314
– wounds behind it or what drives it, you

143
00:05:00.314 –> 00:05:03.194
– know, from a shame place or from this

144
00:05:03.194 –> 00:05:05.834
– empty road place, right, there’s a compulsion that

145
00:05:05.834 –> 00:05:07.214
– develops from a wound.

146
00:05:07.680 –> 00:05:10.399
– Sometimes, not always. Right? Not always, but sometimes

147
00:05:10.399 –> 00:05:12.959
– it’s from something that was some subconscious or

148
00:05:12.959 –> 00:05:16.080
– something that happened. Sometimes it could be sexual

149
00:05:16.080 –> 00:05:18.080
– abuse that’s been untreated or some type of

150
00:05:18.080 –> 00:05:21.214
– compulsion that comes from a foundational wound, right,

151
00:05:21.214 –> 00:05:22.654
– if we kinda look at it from our

152
00:05:22.654 –> 00:05:23.474
– treatment plan,

153
00:05:23.774 –> 00:05:25.474
– where if someone just enjoys

154
00:05:26.014 –> 00:05:28.574
– the high of it, so to speak, there’s

155
00:05:28.574 –> 00:05:30.735
– not it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s always

156
00:05:30.974 –> 00:05:33.055
– Soothing. Soothing. Doesn’t always mean that it comes

157
00:05:33.055 –> 00:05:34.319
– from a wound. It just comes from a

158
00:05:34.319 –> 00:05:36.319
– choice, and my choice may not necessarily come

159
00:05:36.319 –> 00:05:37.680
– up with the life that I’m living. Right?

160
00:05:37.680 –> 00:05:39.439
– So we it’s very nuanced. Mhmm. But we

161
00:05:39.439 –> 00:05:41.759
– kinda look at the two main buckets. We’re

162
00:05:41.759 –> 00:05:45.199
– looking at compulsion and compattern, and we’re looking

163
00:05:45.199 –> 00:05:47.504
– at the wound where the other is just,

164
00:05:47.504 –> 00:05:49.584
– you know, there’s a choice of enjoyment, and

165
00:05:49.584 –> 00:05:52.464
– there’s a choice that, obviously, sometimes they come

166
00:05:52.464 –> 00:05:55.024
– into therapy because it it’s hurt a person.

167
00:05:55.024 –> 00:05:56.865
– So I think from clinical standpoint, it just

168
00:05:56.865 –> 00:05:57.685
– shapes, like,

169
00:05:57.985 –> 00:06:00.064
– how we build a treatment plan. But for

170
00:06:00.064 –> 00:06:02.009
– the marriage, for example, if someone’s in a

171
00:06:02.170 –> 00:06:04.970
– committed relationship, it matters for healing. Mhmm. But

172
00:06:04.970 –> 00:06:07.129
– I think it’s almost irrelevant, and I know

173
00:06:07.129 –> 00:06:09.129
– sometimes it’s hard for people to hear that.

174
00:06:09.129 –> 00:06:11.150
– Mhmm. You know, because whether it was lust,

175
00:06:11.449 –> 00:06:11.949
– entitlement,

176
00:06:12.330 –> 00:06:15.850
– or unresolved trauma on a diagnosable addiction, I

177
00:06:15.850 –> 00:06:17.985
– would say the road forward looks the same.

178
00:06:18.064 –> 00:06:19.925
– Right? Think about it, Roland. It’s full accountability.

179
00:06:20.544 –> 00:06:23.444
– It’s a real disclosure. Mhmm. And the behavior

180
00:06:23.664 –> 00:06:24.485
– that proves

181
00:06:25.024 –> 00:06:26.944
– that change happens over time. So if I

182
00:06:26.944 –> 00:06:28.544
– kinda look at it from the three buckets,

183
00:06:28.544 –> 00:06:29.764
– whether it’s a choice

184
00:06:30.229 –> 00:06:32.709
– or whether it’s coming from a compulsion or

185
00:06:32.709 –> 00:06:35.350
– addiction standpoint, the three main buckets still need

186
00:06:35.350 –> 00:06:37.269
– to be the same either way. So, you

187
00:06:37.269 –> 00:06:38.949
– know, the question for me was never like

188
00:06:39.110 –> 00:06:40.789
– and I understand it because I do work

189
00:06:40.789 –> 00:06:42.310
– with couples and I do work with some

190
00:06:42.310 –> 00:06:44.514
– partners. This, why did you do it? They

191
00:06:44.514 –> 00:06:46.454
– get stuck there. But the question, like,

192
00:06:47.074 –> 00:06:49.314
– what are you gonna do about it now?

193
00:06:49.314 –> 00:06:50.995
– I mean, that’s where the real work is

194
00:06:50.995 –> 00:06:52.995
– and the real talk about that why first

195
00:06:52.995 –> 00:06:53.495
– because

196
00:06:54.034 –> 00:06:54.514
– it’s a

197
00:06:55.235 –> 00:06:57.000
– there’s, like, an obsession with it, not just

198
00:06:57.000 –> 00:06:59.000
– of the partners. I often wonder if the

199
00:06:59.000 –> 00:07:01.160
– partners get obsessed with it because of all

200
00:07:01.160 –> 00:07:02.920
– the books and the podcast because there is

201
00:07:02.920 –> 00:07:05.720
– this messaging from the therapy community that he

202
00:07:05.720 –> 00:07:07.160
– needs to find out his why. He needs

203
00:07:07.160 –> 00:07:08.839
– to discover his why. I always find that

204
00:07:08.839 –> 00:07:11.754
– a bit interesting because I actually do agree

205
00:07:11.754 –> 00:07:13.915
– figure having the guy kinda figure out the

206
00:07:13.915 –> 00:07:15.675
– thought process in terms of how these decisions

207
00:07:15.675 –> 00:07:16.875
– are being made. I do think that from

208
00:07:16.875 –> 00:07:18.334
– a recovery standpoint, that’s beneficial.

209
00:07:18.634 –> 00:07:20.714
– I gotta say though, I can’t I haven’t

210
00:07:20.714 –> 00:07:22.334
– seen a a trade partner

211
00:07:22.634 –> 00:07:25.089
– who hears the why who is also like,

212
00:07:25.089 –> 00:07:27.490
– oh my goodness. I’m finally safe now because

213
00:07:27.490 –> 00:07:29.329
– I know why this happened. I would say,

214
00:07:29.329 –> 00:07:30.529
– well, I want you to speak to that

215
00:07:30.529 –> 00:07:31.969
– first because it is I think there’s this

216
00:07:32.050 –> 00:07:33.009
– I need to know why. I need to

217
00:07:33.009 –> 00:07:34.449
– know why. And I get it. The brain

218
00:07:34.449 –> 00:07:37.009
– loves to have we wanna have something to

219
00:07:37.009 –> 00:07:38.894
– blame. We need to have some sort of

220
00:07:38.894 –> 00:07:40.654
– answer. That’s just with car accidents. That’s with

221
00:07:40.654 –> 00:07:42.495
– everything. We have there’s a huge fire actually

222
00:07:42.495 –> 00:07:44.654
– here where I live. Three miles away. Massive

223
00:07:44.654 –> 00:07:46.894
– fire away from our community here in Sedona,

224
00:07:46.894 –> 00:07:49.375
– Arizona right now. And it’s so funny. It

225
00:07:49.375 –> 00:07:51.649
– doesn’t matter what started it. It really doesn’t

226
00:07:51.649 –> 00:07:53.649
– matter. The thing’s freaking burning and they’re all

227
00:07:53.649 –> 00:07:55.189
– trying to put it out. It’s irrelevant.

228
00:07:55.490 –> 00:07:57.089
– But I am telling you right now, I

229
00:07:57.089 –> 00:07:58.389
– refresh every day.

230
00:07:58.849 –> 00:08:01.250
– Every day, I refresh to see if they

231
00:08:01.250 –> 00:08:03.745
– have found out if some freaking a hole

232
00:08:03.745 –> 00:08:05.824
– started this stinking thing or if it was

233
00:08:05.824 –> 00:08:07.745
– lightning or what you know, I wanna know

234
00:08:07.745 –> 00:08:09.745
– if there if there’s a human being who

235
00:08:09.745 –> 00:08:11.745
– lit my forest on fire or if it

236
00:08:11.745 –> 00:08:14.384
– was an accident. So I understand the psychology

237
00:08:14.384 –> 00:08:15.939
– even though it doesn’t make any sense, but

238
00:08:15.939 –> 00:08:16.980
– I do want you to speak to that

239
00:08:16.980 –> 00:08:19.220
– because that is a huge wouldn’t you agree?

240
00:08:19.220 –> 00:08:21.399
– That is a massive request from the partners,

241
00:08:21.699 –> 00:08:23.319
– especially in the first six months.

242
00:08:23.779 –> 00:08:26.419
– It is. It’s a massive request, and it’s

243
00:08:26.419 –> 00:08:28.259
– one of the main, I would say, main

244
00:08:28.259 –> 00:08:31.365
– stop points that betrayed spouses get stuck on.

245
00:08:31.764 –> 00:08:34.345
– But I believe that the reason why

246
00:08:34.725 –> 00:08:37.125
– I see that they get stuck on that

247
00:08:37.125 –> 00:08:39.065
– is because if they know the why,

248
00:08:39.445 –> 00:08:42.184
– in their trauma in particular, in their hypervigilance,

249
00:08:42.404 –> 00:08:44.184
– they can prevent it from happening again.

250
00:08:44.679 –> 00:08:45.500
– Is that true?

251
00:08:46.360 –> 00:08:48.040
– We know it’s not true. But in that

252
00:08:48.040 –> 00:08:50.840
– moment, right, the survival and the protection in

253
00:08:50.840 –> 00:08:53.580
– her trauma and I’m just using typical heterosexual

254
00:08:53.639 –> 00:08:55.720
– language, but her trauma is coming up. So

255
00:08:55.720 –> 00:08:57.800
– then if I understand, like, how we got

256
00:08:57.800 –> 00:09:00.164
– here, then I can prevent us from so

257
00:09:00.164 –> 00:09:02.725
– that’s coming from a survival standpoint because we

258
00:09:02.725 –> 00:09:04.565
– know she controls nothing. Alright? And I know

259
00:09:04.565 –> 00:09:06.644
– it’s hard for people to hear that. But

260
00:09:06.644 –> 00:09:08.245
– when I say and I can tell you,

261
00:09:08.245 –> 00:09:10.004
– it could be very controversial because when I

262
00:09:10.004 –> 00:09:11.845
– say it doesn’t matter, it feels very dismissive

263
00:09:11.845 –> 00:09:13.924
– to the betrayed partner. Yes. Right? We understand

264
00:09:13.924 –> 00:09:16.899
– that. So but it’s actually the opposite. Like,

265
00:09:16.899 –> 00:09:18.120
– I would tell her

266
00:09:18.580 –> 00:09:20.980
– that it validates her. Right? So think about

267
00:09:20.980 –> 00:09:22.980
– this. Right now, there’s a lot of whys

268
00:09:22.980 –> 00:09:25.639
– that feel like if it’s just entitlement

269
00:09:26.180 –> 00:09:28.740
– instead of addiction, for example, they’re not allowed

270
00:09:28.740 –> 00:09:30.784
– to hurt as much. They’re not saying this,

271
00:09:30.784 –> 00:09:32.065
– but this is what happens. And to me,

272
00:09:32.065 –> 00:09:34.384
– that’s completely backwards. And it’s one of the

273
00:09:34.384 –> 00:09:36.304
– lies I spend a lot of my work,

274
00:09:36.304 –> 00:09:38.485
– like, dismantling. Betrayal is betrayal.

275
00:09:38.945 –> 00:09:41.024
– Her pain doesn’t need a diagnosis, in my

276
00:09:41.024 –> 00:09:42.164
– opinion, to be legitimate.

277
00:09:43.320 –> 00:09:45.160
– Like, what she needs, like, isn’t the right

278
00:09:45.160 –> 00:09:47.000
– label. It’s that she needs to see the

279
00:09:47.000 –> 00:09:48.779
– work. Right? Consistency

280
00:09:49.320 –> 00:09:50.139
– over time

281
00:09:50.600 –> 00:09:52.679
– is what builds trust. It’s not the the

282
00:09:52.679 –> 00:09:54.279
– word that he uses to explain it. Well,

283
00:09:54.279 –> 00:09:55.639
– I just have a sex addiction or I

284
00:09:55.639 –> 00:09:57.894
– have unresolved trauma. Right? It’s what are you

285
00:09:57.894 –> 00:09:59.335
– gonna do about this now? I mean, that’s

286
00:09:59.335 –> 00:10:01.894
– what brings people healing as you I’m gonna

287
00:10:01.894 –> 00:10:04.054
– I’m gonna speak from personal experience. I actually

288
00:10:04.054 –> 00:10:06.774
– just posted a episode on this according to

289
00:10:06.774 –> 00:10:09.690
– our recording today yesterday, and it was it

290
00:10:09.690 –> 00:10:10.970
– was an edgy episode. I was a little

291
00:10:10.970 –> 00:10:13.290
– nervous to share it, but my marriage was

292
00:10:13.290 –> 00:10:16.029
– stuck until I actually admitted that I was

293
00:10:16.250 –> 00:10:18.649
– entitled. The narrative my wife’s brilliant, and the

294
00:10:18.649 –> 00:10:20.970
– narrative was not adding up with this whole

295
00:10:20.970 –> 00:10:21.470
– addiction.

296
00:10:22.115 –> 00:10:23.634
– My childhood trauma led me to do this,

297
00:10:23.634 –> 00:10:25.154
– this, and that. She’s just like, that’s just

298
00:10:25.154 –> 00:10:26.914
– not how you operate. I know you. You

299
00:10:26.914 –> 00:10:28.674
– think a lot about stuff. You’re not an

300
00:10:28.674 –> 00:10:31.475
– impulsive comp like, you plan. You think. You

301
00:10:31.475 –> 00:10:33.235
– go after what you want. And then as

302
00:10:33.235 –> 00:10:35.475
– she kept retracing back, she just couldn’t put

303
00:10:35.475 –> 00:10:36.855
– the pieces together how

304
00:10:37.179 –> 00:10:38.540
– all of a sudden I have this one

305
00:10:38.540 –> 00:10:40.139
– area of my life where I’m all of

306
00:10:40.139 –> 00:10:41.820
– a sudden doing all of this. And finally

307
00:10:41.820 –> 00:10:43.500
– one day, she asked me why and I

308
00:10:43.500 –> 00:10:45.740
– lost it. I I wouldn’t recommend sharing it

309
00:10:45.740 –> 00:10:47.019
– like I did. But I said, you know

310
00:10:47.019 –> 00:10:48.300
– what? I fucking liked it and I thought

311
00:10:48.300 –> 00:10:49.580
– I was gonna get away with it. And

312
00:10:49.580 –> 00:10:51.460
– frankly, there’s many of my parts that wish

313
00:10:51.460 –> 00:10:53.035
– I didn’t get caught so I could keep

314
00:10:53.035 –> 00:10:54.554
– doing all of this at all the conferences.

315
00:10:54.554 –> 00:10:55.835
– Right? You know, and I feel like I’ve

316
00:10:55.915 –> 00:10:57.274
– you know, those parts feel like I lost

317
00:10:57.274 –> 00:10:59.134
– my manlihood. I lost my agency.

318
00:10:59.674 –> 00:11:02.394
– I’m now a spineless control. You know, obviously,

319
00:11:02.394 –> 00:11:03.915
– I don’t agree that, but I have parts

320
00:11:03.915 –> 00:11:06.210
– of me that really wanted to be uncontrolled

321
00:11:06.769 –> 00:11:08.050
– married when I wanna be married and be

322
00:11:08.050 –> 00:11:09.889
– single when I wanna be single. And, oh

323
00:11:09.889 –> 00:11:11.649
– my gosh, everything changed after that. It was

324
00:11:11.649 –> 00:11:14.929
– like, thank you for finally freaking saying after

325
00:11:14.929 –> 00:11:17.170
– two years of pretending to have all these

326
00:11:17.170 –> 00:11:19.250
– excuses in the world. And finally, that’s what

327
00:11:19.250 –> 00:11:20.455
– I wanted to hear. I was out of

328
00:11:20.455 –> 00:11:23.115
– town and you saw an opportunity to go

329
00:11:23.535 –> 00:11:24.035
– do

330
00:11:24.455 –> 00:11:26.054
– something that you wanted to do and thank

331
00:11:26.054 –> 00:11:27.414
– you for telling me. So speak to that

332
00:11:27.414 –> 00:11:29.514
– though because I will say to your point,

333
00:11:29.735 –> 00:11:31.894
– it wasn’t a cop out. It wasn’t it

334
00:11:31.894 –> 00:11:33.975
– it was like finally the answer she wanted

335
00:11:33.975 –> 00:11:36.179
– after all of this cat and mouse washing

336
00:11:36.179 –> 00:11:37.620
– machine stuff that we’d be going over two

337
00:11:37.620 –> 00:11:39.940
– years. She finally got the truth. And you

338
00:11:39.940 –> 00:11:41.299
– know what? It felt good for me to

339
00:11:41.299 –> 00:11:42.899
– say because I finally felt like I had

340
00:11:43.059 –> 00:11:44.820
– didn’t have to stop going to 12 step

341
00:11:44.820 –> 00:11:46.339
– meetings and pretending that I was out of

342
00:11:46.339 –> 00:11:47.940
– control. And I was like, you know, the

343
00:11:47.940 –> 00:11:49.620
– reason I haven’t acted out for two years

344
00:11:49.620 –> 00:11:52.115
– is because I can’t do it anymore because

345
00:11:52.115 –> 00:11:53.875
– you know of what I was up to.

346
00:11:53.875 –> 00:11:55.955
– And so I just stopped. Speak to that

347
00:11:55.955 –> 00:11:57.634
– though because, again, there’s there’s gonna be partners

348
00:11:57.634 –> 00:11:59.315
– who hear that and, again, it’s hard to

349
00:11:59.315 –> 00:12:01.575
– hear. First, kudos to your wife because

350
00:12:02.274 –> 00:12:03.654
– when you spoke your truth,

351
00:12:04.195 –> 00:12:05.254
– she was able to

352
00:12:05.789 –> 00:12:06.529
– handle it.

353
00:12:06.990 –> 00:12:08.589
– Wouldn’t you say that’s how the truth goes

354
00:12:08.589 –> 00:12:10.750
– often though? It feels there’s something about the

355
00:12:10.750 –> 00:12:12.750
– truth that always feels true. Wouldn’t you say

356
00:12:12.750 –> 00:12:14.129
– that? Even if it’s hard to hear.

357
00:12:14.830 –> 00:12:17.149
– I think it feels true and it’s even

358
00:12:17.149 –> 00:12:18.750
– though it’s hard to hear, but I would

359
00:12:18.750 –> 00:12:20.750
– say not everybody actually. I mean, there are

360
00:12:20.750 –> 00:12:22.944
– some and, again, hopefully, I won’t get any

361
00:12:22.944 –> 00:12:24.944
– emails from your podcast. But there are some

362
00:12:24.944 –> 00:12:26.564
– betrayed spouses who,

363
00:12:27.105 –> 00:12:29.024
– even when they hear the truth, will push

364
00:12:29.024 –> 00:12:32.245
– it back. Sure. Sure. Because there’s something potentially

365
00:12:32.625 –> 00:12:35.584
– in her own trauma that doesn’t make sense

366
00:12:35.584 –> 00:12:37.779
– of that because of the life that was

367
00:12:37.779 –> 00:12:40.100
– shown to her or perhaps what she feels

368
00:12:40.100 –> 00:12:42.259
– like she knows to be true. Right? So

369
00:12:42.259 –> 00:12:44.259
– I I would say that also depends on

370
00:12:44.259 –> 00:12:46.340
– the maturity of the woman. It could make

371
00:12:46.340 –> 00:12:48.019
– her feel because my wife said this and

372
00:12:48.019 –> 00:12:49.860
– this is actually still something to this day

373
00:12:49.860 –> 00:12:52.975
– she battles with is because it was entitlement.

374
00:12:53.835 –> 00:12:56.495
– She now is in her parts of her.

375
00:12:56.715 –> 00:12:58.554
– Parts of her say that she’s stupid to

376
00:12:58.554 –> 00:13:00.654
– stay, that she’s weak to stay,

377
00:13:01.035 –> 00:13:03.915
– that she’s doing women a disservice by letting

378
00:13:03.915 –> 00:13:06.190
– me get away with this. Right? So speak

379
00:13:06.190 –> 00:13:07.389
– to that because I do think that’s a

380
00:13:07.389 –> 00:13:09.170
– pretty common narrative of why

381
00:13:10.110 –> 00:13:12.990
– we’ve really been defending and forcing everybody into

382
00:13:12.990 –> 00:13:14.830
– this addiction box, which I I just really

383
00:13:14.830 –> 00:13:17.149
– think far fewer men actually fall into that

384
00:13:17.149 –> 00:13:19.070
– category than we like to think. But I

385
00:13:19.070 –> 00:13:20.290
– think that stories

386
00:13:20.845 –> 00:13:22.684
– because, again, I could be getting this wrong,

387
00:13:22.684 –> 00:13:24.865
– but I feel like if the entitlement amplifies

388
00:13:25.485 –> 00:13:27.565
– how dumb she is for staying with me

389
00:13:27.565 –> 00:13:29.085
– according to her parts of her that are

390
00:13:29.085 –> 00:13:31.004
– shaming herself for that. Would you agree? There

391
00:13:31.004 –> 00:13:32.684
– are lots of women that have parts of

392
00:13:32.684 –> 00:13:34.465
– them that share that sentiment.

393
00:13:35.029 –> 00:13:37.290
– And what I would tell you is their

394
00:13:37.590 –> 00:13:39.750
– high level conversation without getting into the weeds

395
00:13:39.750 –> 00:13:42.070
– of it. There are certain parts of that

396
00:13:42.070 –> 00:13:43.509
– where and, again, I don’t know your wife.

397
00:13:43.509 –> 00:13:45.190
– Right? But I just know many betrayed partners

398
00:13:45.190 –> 00:13:47.264
– in the sense that because they have have

399
00:13:47.264 –> 00:13:49.425
– to now look in the mirror at themselves.

400
00:13:49.425 –> 00:13:51.205
– So I don’t even think, like, those questions

401
00:13:51.264 –> 00:13:53.585
– are a bad question. Like, what’s wrong with

402
00:13:53.585 –> 00:13:55.264
– me? Like, why would I stay? I think

403
00:13:55.264 –> 00:13:57.024
– what the point for me is that there

404
00:13:57.024 –> 00:13:59.105
– is a mirror that happens where there’s some

405
00:13:59.105 –> 00:13:59.845
– self reflection.

406
00:14:00.559 –> 00:14:02.799
– Because in that mirror, there is also some

407
00:14:02.799 –> 00:14:04.740
– things. And sometimes in the betrayal

408
00:14:05.600 –> 00:14:07.600
– discovery, it’s not the time to bring these

409
00:14:07.600 –> 00:14:09.279
– things up. But down the road, it is

410
00:14:09.279 –> 00:14:11.360
– important for her to look at herself. It

411
00:14:11.360 –> 00:14:12.959
– is important for her to understand, like, what

412
00:14:12.959 –> 00:14:14.799
– was my trauma? What even attracted me to

413
00:14:14.879 –> 00:14:17.074
– why do I wanna stay? Like, what is

414
00:14:17.074 –> 00:14:19.154
– my image? What’s the picture or the fantasy

415
00:14:19.154 –> 00:14:21.074
– that I have? Right? What does this mean

416
00:14:21.074 –> 00:14:23.794
– about me? I think the fundamental questions it’s

417
00:14:23.794 –> 00:14:26.194
– asking Mhmm. Are profound, and they need to

418
00:14:26.194 –> 00:14:28.434
– happen. Mhmm. But I think on the other

419
00:14:28.434 –> 00:14:30.355
– side of that, there has to come to

420
00:14:30.355 –> 00:14:31.730
– a term, so perhaps this is your wife

421
00:14:31.730 –> 00:14:33.850
– or many betrayed partners, is that I am

422
00:14:33.850 –> 00:14:36.169
– making a choice to stay with someone, but

423
00:14:36.169 –> 00:14:38.750
– I’m making a choice from an informed decision.

424
00:14:38.970 –> 00:14:41.309
– Now I have information. Now I have truth.

425
00:14:41.449 –> 00:14:43.370
– And if we’re going to work things out,

426
00:14:43.370 –> 00:14:45.049
– there are certain things that I also need

427
00:14:45.049 –> 00:14:47.504
– to have rebuilt inside of our relationship. And

428
00:14:47.504 –> 00:14:49.504
– if I see him doing these things while

429
00:14:49.504 –> 00:14:51.345
– I’m also doing my work, there is a

430
00:14:51.345 –> 00:14:52.625
– part where on the other side of it,

431
00:14:52.625 –> 00:14:54.465
– we could be known. We could be in

432
00:14:54.465 –> 00:14:56.705
– a place where more maturity, a place of

433
00:14:56.705 –> 00:14:58.785
– choice. That to me is also a highest

434
00:14:58.785 –> 00:15:01.820
– level of choosing a partner versus familiarity. We

435
00:15:01.820 –> 00:15:03.580
– have kids, and I I understand it’s very

436
00:15:03.580 –> 00:15:05.660
– nuanced. People have kids. They have money. They

437
00:15:05.660 –> 00:15:07.500
– have all these other things. But I will

438
00:15:07.500 –> 00:15:09.980
– see from the onset, most of the betrayed

439
00:15:09.980 –> 00:15:11.500
– partners I work with, it is from their

440
00:15:11.500 –> 00:15:13.325
– wound. But later on, they have to be

441
00:15:13.325 –> 00:15:14.845
– able to look at that. Did they have

442
00:15:14.845 –> 00:15:17.585
– some type of compulsion around love and fantasy

443
00:15:18.125 –> 00:15:21.804
– or having to not feel the shame of

444
00:15:21.804 –> 00:15:23.804
– wanting to have a divorce because of their

445
00:15:23.804 –> 00:15:25.404
– own family system? So I think, you know,

446
00:15:25.404 –> 00:15:27.745
– it’s very nuanced, but those questions to me,

447
00:15:27.940 –> 00:15:29.620
– I’m not gonna be the one to say,

448
00:15:29.620 –> 00:15:31.779
– no. Don’t say that about yourself. You’re not

449
00:15:31.779 –> 00:15:33.220
– stupid. I’m gonna say, you know what? Let’s

450
00:15:33.220 –> 00:15:35.300
– explore that. Mhmm. Well, I think you’re bringing

451
00:15:35.300 –> 00:15:37.000
– up a really great point there because

452
00:15:37.379 –> 00:15:39.620
– here’s what happened in my opinion, and and

453
00:15:39.620 –> 00:15:41.024
– you can speak to this. If we don’t

454
00:15:41.024 –> 00:15:42.704
– ask those questions and we don’t speak them

455
00:15:42.704 –> 00:15:44.704
– out loud, they’re not a part of the

456
00:15:44.704 –> 00:15:46.225
– relational, you know, they need to be a

457
00:15:46.225 –> 00:15:48.304
– part of the relational discussion. Hey, honey, I

458
00:15:48.304 –> 00:15:50.245
– feel like I’m doing women a disservice

459
00:15:50.865 –> 00:15:52.704
– by letting this go. Right? And the guy

460
00:15:52.704 –> 00:15:54.464
– being non defensive and saying, cool, talk to

461
00:15:54.464 –> 00:15:55.825
– me more about that. What do you make

462
00:15:55.825 –> 00:15:57.800
– up about that? Right? I also think if

463
00:15:57.800 –> 00:15:59.639
– you’re not talking about that, again, maybe even

464
00:15:59.639 –> 00:16:01.480
– with your therapist, maybe even some of your

465
00:16:01.480 –> 00:16:03.899
– friends. I think to me, if we

466
00:16:04.360 –> 00:16:07.500
– keep it stuff down and we just don’t,

467
00:16:07.720 –> 00:16:09.639
– I think that is part part of, not

468
00:16:09.639 –> 00:16:10.840
– the only thing, but I think that’s part

469
00:16:10.840 –> 00:16:12.855
– of why we don’t see marriages deriving

470
00:16:13.554 –> 00:16:17.154
– at year three, sometimes beyond is there’s this

471
00:16:17.154 –> 00:16:20.274
– thing they’re battling inside of, I’m still wrestling

472
00:16:20.274 –> 00:16:22.035
– with this question that I haven’t voiced. Whereas,

473
00:16:22.035 –> 00:16:24.035
– you know, you’d be surprised maybe just discussing

474
00:16:24.035 –> 00:16:26.355
– it openly with your husband and your therapist

475
00:16:26.355 –> 00:16:27.414
– in a therapy session,

476
00:16:27.799 –> 00:16:28.919
– it could take you know, I’m not gonna

477
00:16:28.919 –> 00:16:30.279
– say it’s only gonna take a session, but

478
00:16:30.279 –> 00:16:31.639
– it could be three or four sessions to

479
00:16:31.639 –> 00:16:34.360
– really find some peace around. You’re actually not

480
00:16:34.360 –> 00:16:36.839
– stupid for staying. You can leave them whenever

481
00:16:36.839 –> 00:16:39.000
– you want. You’re choosing to stay and just

482
00:16:39.000 –> 00:16:41.159
– even something as simple as that reframing it.

483
00:16:41.159 –> 00:16:42.860
– But can you speak to why

484
00:16:43.264 –> 00:16:45.904
– these really hard questions of, am I dumb

485
00:16:45.904 –> 00:16:48.644
– for staying? Is he just entitled? What ignoring

486
00:16:48.784 –> 00:16:50.384
– some of these doubts in your gut? Because

487
00:16:50.384 –> 00:16:52.384
– you know the partners are asking themselves whether

488
00:16:52.384 –> 00:16:53.985
– it’s coming out of their mouth or not.

489
00:16:53.985 –> 00:16:55.585
– I think all partners are wondering, is he

490
00:16:55.585 –> 00:16:57.420
– really an addict? Is this just an excuse?

491
00:16:57.560 –> 00:16:59.240
– Am I stupid for staying? Is this gonna

492
00:16:59.240 –> 00:17:00.680
– happen to me again? Can you speak to

493
00:17:00.680 –> 00:17:02.600
– the benefit of actually voicing a lot of

494
00:17:02.600 –> 00:17:05.320
– these internal questions rather than just keeping them

495
00:17:05.320 –> 00:17:07.820
– safe? Well, you know, it takes real

496
00:17:08.775 –> 00:17:09.275
– maturity

497
00:17:09.894 –> 00:17:10.795
– to be able

498
00:17:11.335 –> 00:17:12.875
– to take an honest answer.

499
00:17:13.575 –> 00:17:16.394
– So when someone takes time to reflect,

500
00:17:17.174 –> 00:17:18.775
– regardless of where they are in a healing

501
00:17:18.775 –> 00:17:21.809
– process other than the initial discovery time, It

502
00:17:21.809 –> 00:17:24.849
– also can reveal things inside of us Mhmm.

503
00:17:24.929 –> 00:17:27.329
– That we haven’t looked at, what we need

504
00:17:27.329 –> 00:17:29.089
– to take ownership of, what we need to

505
00:17:29.089 –> 00:17:31.169
– take accountability, and that’s not a label. Right?

506
00:17:31.169 –> 00:17:33.109
– So we kinda look at the label versus

507
00:17:33.169 –> 00:17:34.230
– just true honesty.

508
00:17:34.609 –> 00:17:36.630
– A lot of people ask for honesty.

509
00:17:37.384 –> 00:17:39.625
– And think about it in non relational ways.

510
00:17:39.625 –> 00:17:41.465
– Sometimes we want honesty, but we can’t even

511
00:17:41.465 –> 00:17:43.705
– handle the truth Mhmm. Because it opens up

512
00:17:43.705 –> 00:17:45.785
– wounds and stuff. Like, we have core wounds,

513
00:17:45.785 –> 00:17:47.244
– not good enough, rejection,

514
00:17:47.625 –> 00:17:49.785
– right, and things that we haven’t touched on

515
00:17:49.785 –> 00:17:51.865
– or shame. Then when someone tells us the

516
00:17:51.865 –> 00:17:54.359
– truth and it doesn’t, it touches on parts

517
00:17:54.359 –> 00:17:56.200
– of us that are unhealed, we’re gonna push

518
00:17:56.200 –> 00:17:56.940
– that back.

519
00:17:57.320 –> 00:17:59.799
– So when it comes to maturity and, you

520
00:17:59.799 –> 00:18:02.140
– know, using your own relationship as an example,

521
00:18:02.599 –> 00:18:04.599
– you and your wife have to be two

522
00:18:04.599 –> 00:18:06.940
– people who have to own their own maturity

523
00:18:07.080 –> 00:18:09.184
– and own their own healing work to to

524
00:18:09.184 –> 00:18:11.265
– say we’re choosing to be with each other.

525
00:18:11.265 –> 00:18:13.424
– And with her knowledge of knowing that, yes,

526
00:18:13.424 –> 00:18:15.265
– he admitted this is entitlement and he’s he

527
00:18:15.265 –> 00:18:17.025
– did all the things, but any point he

528
00:18:17.025 –> 00:18:18.884
– can make that choice to do it again,

529
00:18:19.105 –> 00:18:20.785
– as I also can make a choice to

530
00:18:20.785 –> 00:18:22.325
– leave and not be in this relationship.

531
00:18:22.789 –> 00:18:24.710
– So I think when we look at real

532
00:18:24.710 –> 00:18:26.869
– honesty, it takes a lot of internal work.

533
00:18:26.869 –> 00:18:28.549
– The fastest way to lose you know, I

534
00:18:28.549 –> 00:18:30.630
– would say in marriage is keep managing the

535
00:18:30.630 –> 00:18:31.849
– other person’s perception

536
00:18:32.230 –> 00:18:34.710
– instead of doing your own internal work. So,

537
00:18:34.710 –> 00:18:36.549
– I mean, that’s where to me, right, that’s

538
00:18:36.549 –> 00:18:38.215
– why I’m a therapist, the healing work. That’s

539
00:18:38.215 –> 00:18:40.795
– where the healing work actually comes into play.

540
00:18:41.095 –> 00:18:43.575
– And especially for what I call RealMed. Right?

541
00:18:43.575 –> 00:18:45.414
– In the sense of it’s not gonna be

542
00:18:45.414 –> 00:18:47.255
– one conversation. It’s not gonna be I’m gonna

543
00:18:47.255 –> 00:18:49.335
– continue to to hide, but at some point,

544
00:18:49.335 –> 00:18:51.779
– you use discernment. Right? A 100% use discernment.

545
00:18:51.779 –> 00:18:53.299
– Because sometimes your wife is not in a

546
00:18:53.299 –> 00:18:55.779
– place where Sure. You know, being radically honest

547
00:18:55.779 –> 00:18:57.940
– at any moment could be more harming. Right?

548
00:18:57.940 –> 00:18:59.380
– So you have to use discernment in in

549
00:18:59.380 –> 00:19:00.980
– that standpoint, and it’s not gonna be a

550
00:19:00.980 –> 00:19:03.299
– one conversation thing. Right? It’s gonna be layers,

551
00:19:03.299 –> 00:19:05.184
– and there’s the mind like, in our women

552
00:19:05.184 –> 00:19:06.944
– redeem program, we have the mindset work. We

553
00:19:06.944 –> 00:19:09.444
– have the unpacking the thought patterns that give

554
00:19:09.585 –> 00:19:11.984
– him permission to act outside of his values

555
00:19:11.984 –> 00:19:13.424
– if that was his values. If it wasn’t

556
00:19:13.424 –> 00:19:15.585
– his values, that’s different. Right? And that’s, to

557
00:19:15.585 –> 00:19:17.024
– me, where the deeper work of a lot

558
00:19:17.024 –> 00:19:20.150
– of men that have entitlements and impulsivity trace

559
00:19:20.150 –> 00:19:22.309
– straight back to something a lot earlier. But

560
00:19:22.309 –> 00:19:23.930
– in order to have true conversations,

561
00:19:24.309 –> 00:19:25.830
– there has to be maturity. I mean, that’s,

562
00:19:25.830 –> 00:19:27.190
– like, the basic way to say it. Because

563
00:19:27.190 –> 00:19:28.630
– in order for me to have to hear

564
00:19:28.630 –> 00:19:30.390
– your truth, like, if I’m your wife, I

565
00:19:30.390 –> 00:19:32.204
– have to not hold on to the perception

566
00:19:32.264 –> 00:19:33.724
– that I have of you. I have to

567
00:19:34.264 –> 00:19:35.625
– and that means I have had to do

568
00:19:35.625 –> 00:19:37.304
– my own work. And I wanna empathize with

569
00:19:37.304 –> 00:19:39.565
– the partner because this is probably the saddest,

570
00:19:39.944 –> 00:19:41.144
– at least for me. I won’t speak for

571
00:19:41.144 –> 00:19:42.904
– everybody else, but this is the saddest part

572
00:19:42.904 –> 00:19:44.809
– for me and the one that I I

573
00:19:44.809 –> 00:19:46.650
– haven’t forgiven myself for. I have to a

574
00:19:46.650 –> 00:19:48.490
– healthy point, so I’m not I’m not carrying

575
00:19:48.490 –> 00:19:50.410
– shame, but I don’t wanna forgive myself for

576
00:19:50.410 –> 00:19:52.329
– this one yet. It’s the sad one, and

577
00:19:52.329 –> 00:19:54.589
– that’s the fact that prior to

578
00:19:54.890 –> 00:19:56.429
– my wife discovering my behaviors,

579
00:19:56.765 –> 00:19:58.605
– she really did live in a world of

580
00:19:58.605 –> 00:20:00.205
– blind trust. She lived in a world where

581
00:20:00.205 –> 00:20:02.045
– I only had eyes for her and all

582
00:20:02.045 –> 00:20:04.924
– men only had eyes for their wives. And

583
00:20:04.924 –> 00:20:07.005
– I just want to empathize with the ladies

584
00:20:07.005 –> 00:20:09.085
– because that is a narrative that is sold

585
00:20:09.085 –> 00:20:11.245
– to you and it’s a very fun narrative

586
00:20:11.245 –> 00:20:13.319
– to believe in. And I just wanna empathize

587
00:20:13.319 –> 00:20:14.460
– that when this happens,

588
00:20:14.839 –> 00:20:16.440
– that gets stolen from you. And not only

589
00:20:16.440 –> 00:20:17.799
– gets it taken from you, but it gets

590
00:20:17.799 –> 00:20:20.119
– taken from all your future relationships as well.

591
00:20:20.119 –> 00:20:22.119
– So you will never blindly trust a man.

592
00:20:22.119 –> 00:20:23.559
– I guess I shouldn’t say that, but there

593
00:20:23.559 –> 00:20:25.559
– is a high likelihood you won’t blindly trust

594
00:20:25.559 –> 00:20:27.945
– a man from a sexual standpoint ever again.

595
00:20:27.945 –> 00:20:29.884
– And there is a high likelihood that you

596
00:20:30.184 –> 00:20:32.744
– will now start noticing that he does that

597
00:20:32.744 –> 00:20:35.224
– his attraction didn’t just magically go away when

598
00:20:35.224 –> 00:20:36.664
– you guys went to the courthouse that it’s

599
00:20:36.664 –> 00:20:38.265
– still there and he is still attracted to

600
00:20:38.265 –> 00:20:39.789
– other women. And it sucks to all of

601
00:20:39.789 –> 00:20:41.470
– a sudden have that introduced to your life.

602
00:20:41.470 –> 00:20:43.309
– So I just wanna empathize real quick with

603
00:20:43.309 –> 00:20:44.829
– the ladies on that because that is one

604
00:20:44.829 –> 00:20:46.190
– thing that that’s probably the thing that I’m

605
00:20:46.190 –> 00:20:48.109
– the saddest about was I want her to

606
00:20:48.109 –> 00:20:49.470
– have that. You know, it’s like I know

607
00:20:49.470 –> 00:20:51.309
– we don’t wanna be naive, but I don’t

608
00:20:51.309 –> 00:20:53.309
– think that’s naive. I think that’s cool to

609
00:20:53.309 –> 00:20:55.664
– have that trust and that desire in you.

610
00:20:55.664 –> 00:20:56.944
– And I just I’m sad that I took

611
00:20:56.944 –> 00:20:58.224
– that from my wife. I I want you

612
00:20:58.224 –> 00:20:59.345
– to speak to that before I ask you

613
00:20:59.345 –> 00:21:00.865
– the next question. Yeah. Well, I have a

614
00:21:00.865 –> 00:21:02.464
– lot to say there. No. You do. I

615
00:21:02.464 –> 00:21:04.384
– saw your face. Real I’ll keep it real

616
00:21:04.384 –> 00:21:05.125
– high level.

617
00:21:05.585 –> 00:21:07.585
– I think, you know, what you are grieving

618
00:21:07.585 –> 00:21:09.930
– or what you’re saying, in that grief process

619
00:21:09.930 –> 00:21:12.509
– is to me, you took away a fantasy

620
00:21:12.809 –> 00:21:14.569
– or a narrative in the sense that And

621
00:21:14.569 –> 00:21:16.089
– that’s hard then that’s hard to hear because

622
00:21:16.089 –> 00:21:17.849
– I think they really liked that one. Right?

623
00:21:17.849 –> 00:21:19.529
– Of course. You wanna think, oh, I’m the

624
00:21:19.529 –> 00:21:21.289
– apple of his eye. He only sees me.

625
00:21:21.289 –> 00:21:23.095
– Right? But what I would to kinda bring

626
00:21:23.095 –> 00:21:25.335
– it into reality, there’s some level of truth

627
00:21:25.335 –> 00:21:27.755
– to that. Your wife has a certain level

628
00:21:28.295 –> 00:21:30.615
– of your heart that someone on the street

629
00:21:30.615 –> 00:21:32.315
– who’s just attractive doesn’t.

630
00:21:32.775 –> 00:21:34.775
– Right? So there’s layers to it. But to

631
00:21:34.775 –> 00:21:36.454
– think that you’re gonna go out and not

632
00:21:36.454 –> 00:21:38.059
– notice attractive women

633
00:21:38.359 –> 00:21:40.359
– is living with your head in the sand,

634
00:21:40.359 –> 00:21:42.919
– meaning women in general. But to think that

635
00:21:42.919 –> 00:21:45.179
– you’re gonna go out and no longer objectify

636
00:21:45.640 –> 00:21:47.720
– and you’re gonna take home every single woman

637
00:21:47.720 –> 00:21:49.559
– that you see in bed with you, I

638
00:21:49.559 –> 00:21:51.884
– mean, that’s a realistic standard. That’s self practice.

639
00:21:51.884 –> 00:21:53.325
– But to think that there are gonna be

640
00:21:53.325 –> 00:21:55.005
– more women that are bit more prettier and

641
00:21:55.005 –> 00:21:56.384
– more beautiful than your wife,

642
00:21:56.684 –> 00:21:57.424
– that’s reality.

643
00:21:57.805 –> 00:21:59.805
– But your attachment when we get into the

644
00:21:59.805 –> 00:22:02.445
– attachment of it, your attachment to your wife

645
00:22:02.445 –> 00:22:04.365
– is going to trump anything that you may

646
00:22:04.365 –> 00:22:05.964
– see out there because that could just be

647
00:22:05.964 –> 00:22:07.325
– a one night, so to speak, but your

648
00:22:07.325 –> 00:22:09.829
– wife is riding the waves with you. So

649
00:22:09.829 –> 00:22:12.089
– I think when you take away someone’s fantasy

650
00:22:12.230 –> 00:22:13.929
– and you brush them into reality,

651
00:22:14.309 –> 00:22:16.390
– then kinda like the matrix. And since that,

652
00:22:16.390 –> 00:22:18.710
– it’s a hard pill to swallow. Mhmm. And

653
00:22:18.710 –> 00:22:21.029
– I think that also means that I have

654
00:22:21.029 –> 00:22:23.224
– to compete sometimes when women feel that. Like,

655
00:22:23.224 –> 00:22:25.384
– I even get that when women just feel

656
00:22:25.384 –> 00:22:28.044
– like they’re competing with pornography in another level.

657
00:22:28.265 –> 00:22:30.424
– So what does that mean to how am

658
00:22:30.424 –> 00:22:32.265
– I not good enough? Does it feel I

659
00:22:32.265 –> 00:22:34.345
– feel inadequate? Does it meet like, all these

660
00:22:34.345 –> 00:22:36.039
– other things come up? Like, just keep it

661
00:22:36.039 –> 00:22:37.720
– high level. But I think when that grief

662
00:22:37.720 –> 00:22:38.700
– comes into play,

663
00:22:39.320 –> 00:22:41.799
– you can want those things for her, of

664
00:22:41.799 –> 00:22:42.299
– course.

665
00:22:42.680 –> 00:22:44.839
– But I think it’s also important to understand

666
00:22:44.839 –> 00:22:47.000
– and be honest that you are always going

667
00:22:47.000 –> 00:22:48.140
– to have my heart.

668
00:22:48.494 –> 00:22:50.674
– And what that means is that brings your

669
00:22:50.734 –> 00:22:53.295
– sexual, your spiritual life to a whole another

670
00:22:53.295 –> 00:22:53.795
– level.

671
00:22:54.335 –> 00:22:55.775
– But maybe we don’t have to say it

672
00:22:55.775 –> 00:22:57.775
– out loud all the time that you go

673
00:22:57.775 –> 00:22:59.535
– outside and, yeah, there’s a lot more beautiful

674
00:22:59.535 –> 00:23:01.214
– woman than you, dear wife. No. You don’t

675
00:23:01.214 –> 00:23:03.055
– have to say that. Right? But there’s a

676
00:23:03.055 –> 00:23:03.875
– certain reality

677
00:23:04.470 –> 00:23:06.069
– that we’re all living in, and I think

678
00:23:06.069 –> 00:23:07.669
– we feed that also. You know, if we

679
00:23:07.669 –> 00:23:09.349
– kinda look at the algorithm on social media,

680
00:23:09.349 –> 00:23:11.429
– right, we can life, we can feed ourselves

681
00:23:11.429 –> 00:23:13.190
– with certain algorithm, and women do that all

682
00:23:13.190 –> 00:23:15.750
– the time. Sure. Love stories, all these other

683
00:23:15.750 –> 00:23:17.849
– types of things, and then there’s competitive nature,

684
00:23:18.095 –> 00:23:19.615
– which is why we have you know, I’m

685
00:23:19.615 –> 00:23:22.515
– in Florida. Miami’s off the charts with cosmetic

686
00:23:22.575 –> 00:23:25.695
– surgeries and injectables, all these other things. It’s

687
00:23:25.695 –> 00:23:27.775
– to buy for the apple to keep that

688
00:23:27.775 –> 00:23:29.695
– apple to keep that fantasy a lot. Okay.

689
00:23:29.695 –> 00:23:30.907
– I’m up there island because I’m up there

690
00:23:30.907 –> 00:23:31.005
– island. I’m up there island. I’m up there

691
00:23:31.005 –> 00:23:31.232
– island. I’m up there island. I’m up there

692
00:23:31.232 –> 00:23:31.695
– island. I’m up there island. I’m up there.

693
00:23:31.695 –> 00:23:33.000
– Go on and on about that.

694
00:23:33.640 –> 00:23:36.119
– Yeah. But now it’s a it’s a being

695
00:23:36.119 –> 00:23:37.799
– trusted into real I mean, we’ve all done

696
00:23:37.799 –> 00:23:39.240
– that with all sorts of things. Right? It’s

697
00:23:39.240 –> 00:23:40.519
– like, you know, I lived in this fantasy

698
00:23:40.519 –> 00:23:41.799
– where my car would never break down. It

699
00:23:41.799 –> 00:23:43.319
– breaks down for everybody else, but it never

700
00:23:43.319 –> 00:23:44.839
– breaks down on my road trip. It never

701
00:23:44.839 –> 00:23:46.445
– breaks down when I. And then my car

702
00:23:46.445 –> 00:23:48.285
– broke down once with a car full. I

703
00:23:48.285 –> 00:23:49.884
– had all the food. I had all the

704
00:23:49.884 –> 00:23:51.644
– food, and everybody’s out of the house out

705
00:23:51.644 –> 00:23:54.205
– in the mountains, and they can’t eat because

706
00:23:54.205 –> 00:23:55.964
– I was the guy who made the Costco

707
00:23:55.964 –> 00:23:58.045
– run, and now my car is busted, and

708
00:23:58.045 –> 00:23:59.805
– the tow truck driver is not gonna drive

709
00:23:59.805 –> 00:24:01.690
– me and all my food. So I now

710
00:24:01.690 –> 00:24:03.529
– live in a world where my car breaks

711
00:24:03.529 –> 00:24:05.450
– down. So now that is something, you know,

712
00:24:05.450 –> 00:24:07.529
– as much I wanna buy the Range Rover

713
00:24:07.529 –> 00:24:09.950
– and I wanna buy the the Lambo SUV,

714
00:24:10.170 –> 00:24:12.410
– I now buy a Toyota or Lexus because

715
00:24:12.410 –> 00:24:14.009
– I wanna get to the dang beach now

716
00:24:14.009 –> 00:24:15.690
– and it’s not worth it to me. They

717
00:24:15.690 –> 00:24:17.644
– look cool getting there. So I get it.

718
00:24:17.644 –> 00:24:19.565
– Being trusted in reality, it’s never fun, but

719
00:24:19.565 –> 00:24:21.325
– at the same time, it’s reality and it

720
00:24:21.325 –> 00:24:23.164
– ain’t going anywhere. Right? So my last question,

721
00:24:23.164 –> 00:24:25.164
– my my my favorite one, and it may

722
00:24:25.164 –> 00:24:26.525
– take a while to for us to kind

723
00:24:26.525 –> 00:24:28.525
– of answer this well. I am a firm

724
00:24:28.525 –> 00:24:31.804
– believer that it is actually in everyone’s best

725
00:24:31.804 –> 00:24:32.304
– interest.

726
00:24:32.779 –> 00:24:35.179
– The betrayed partner, the marriage, them guy in

727
00:24:35.179 –> 00:24:37.359
– recovery, it is in everyone’s best interest

728
00:24:37.819 –> 00:24:40.299
– to identify the problem they actually have. And

729
00:24:40.299 –> 00:24:43.500
– that is why I feel so strongly about

730
00:24:43.500 –> 00:24:44.000
– normalizing

731
00:24:44.539 –> 00:24:46.694
– the fact that you could be entitled. That

732
00:24:46.694 –> 00:24:48.454
– chronic cheating does not have to necessarily be

733
00:24:48.454 –> 00:24:50.454
– this pathology. It could just it could be

734
00:24:50.454 –> 00:24:53.034
– a choice. The reason I wanna normalize that

735
00:24:53.095 –> 00:24:55.575
– is I believe that if you force yourself

736
00:24:55.575 –> 00:24:56.934
– to have a problem you do not have,

737
00:24:56.934 –> 00:24:59.335
– you are wasting a lot of recovery efforts

738
00:24:59.335 –> 00:25:01.335
– recovering from something that you do not have.

739
00:25:01.335 –> 00:25:02.960
– And so my case

740
00:25:04.059 –> 00:25:06.460
– for inviting this entitlement or just or just

741
00:25:06.460 –> 00:25:09.980
– even lying or just not subscribing to social

742
00:25:09.980 –> 00:25:12.700
– norms and lying because everybody else subscribe acts

743
00:25:12.700 –> 00:25:14.140
– like they subscribe to them. So now you

744
00:25:14.140 –> 00:25:15.659
– feel like you need to just hide these

745
00:25:15.659 –> 00:25:16.559
– parts of you.

746
00:25:17.144 –> 00:25:19.805
– I am trying to make this okay to

747
00:25:20.105 –> 00:25:22.825
– not be compulsive and being addicted and still

748
00:25:22.825 –> 00:25:24.825
– not want to be a chronic cheater. This

749
00:25:24.825 –> 00:25:26.505
– is how I identify. And the reason for

750
00:25:26.505 –> 00:25:28.664
– this is I believe that everyone is safer

751
00:25:28.664 –> 00:25:30.809
– when I’m actually getting the help I need

752
00:25:30.809 –> 00:25:32.809
– and I’m taking the ownership of the problem

753
00:25:32.809 –> 00:25:34.890
– I actually have. I think you are less

754
00:25:34.890 –> 00:25:35.390
– safe

755
00:25:35.850 –> 00:25:37.930
– by forcing yourself to be an addict if

756
00:25:37.930 –> 00:25:39.610
– you are not an addict because you’re now

757
00:25:39.610 –> 00:25:41.529
– gonna be doing a lot of recovery work

758
00:25:41.529 –> 00:25:43.664
– that just simply doesn’t apply to you. And,

759
00:25:43.904 –> 00:25:45.345
– I want you to speak to how it

760
00:25:45.345 –> 00:25:47.365
– really is in all of our best interest

761
00:25:47.505 –> 00:25:50.065
– to get the truth out and actually get

762
00:25:50.065 –> 00:25:50.565
– the

763
00:25:51.105 –> 00:25:53.585
– why behind the behavior out and actually create

764
00:25:53.585 –> 00:25:55.664
– a plan that’s designed for that. Can you

765
00:25:55.664 –> 00:25:57.424
– do a better job of explaining that than

766
00:25:57.424 –> 00:25:59.069
– I did? Yeah. What I would share with

767
00:25:59.069 –> 00:26:01.789
– you is then I can talk from my

768
00:26:01.789 –> 00:26:04.450
– experience what my hope is is that

769
00:26:05.230 –> 00:26:06.450
– because I’m in a world

770
00:26:06.829 –> 00:26:08.990
– where, you know, we have CSATs. We have

771
00:26:08.990 –> 00:26:10.445
– those that are you know, we have all

772
00:26:10.445 –> 00:26:12.204
– these labels in a sense and I’m saying

773
00:26:12.204 –> 00:26:13.724
– this as someone who’s trained as a CSAT

774
00:26:13.724 –> 00:26:15.164
– and who’s a CSAT supervisor. Right? So I

775
00:26:15.164 –> 00:26:17.644
– have no problem with that. But what I

776
00:26:17.644 –> 00:26:19.644
– find is that we get so caught up

777
00:26:19.644 –> 00:26:20.144
– in

778
00:26:20.525 –> 00:26:23.644
– the labels, the diagnosis, the whys, cheating, all

779
00:26:23.644 –> 00:26:24.704
– the things that

780
00:26:25.059 –> 00:26:26.980
– we miss the most important thing in my

781
00:26:26.980 –> 00:26:28.900
– opinion. And I think when it comes to

782
00:26:28.900 –> 00:26:31.539
– couples in particular, it’s the better question that

783
00:26:31.539 –> 00:26:33.140
– we ask or that we could be asking,

784
00:26:33.140 –> 00:26:35.059
– like, especially when couples work. I mean, are

785
00:26:35.059 –> 00:26:37.220
– you building something real, or are you just

786
00:26:37.220 –> 00:26:38.279
– managing a crisis?

787
00:26:38.580 –> 00:26:40.984
– Mhmm. Because sometimes with these labels, they come

788
00:26:40.984 –> 00:26:43.464
– into play because obviously and all these things

789
00:26:43.464 –> 00:26:46.265
– are relevant. Our childhood wounds, there is compulsion.

790
00:26:46.265 –> 00:26:48.265
– I a 100% agree with all of that,

791
00:26:48.265 –> 00:26:49.785
– but I do believe that we get caught

792
00:26:49.785 –> 00:26:50.845
– up in

793
00:26:51.640 –> 00:26:54.200
– these things without really feeling and really diving

794
00:26:54.200 –> 00:26:56.359
– into that healing truly is possible. Like, I’ve

795
00:26:56.359 –> 00:26:59.259
– watched so many couples that come back stronger

796
00:26:59.319 –> 00:27:00.759
– because of the sync things that you and

797
00:27:00.759 –> 00:27:01.880
– I were talking about with you and your

798
00:27:01.880 –> 00:27:02.859
– wife. Right? Maturity,

799
00:27:03.319 –> 00:27:03.819
– honesty.

800
00:27:04.394 –> 00:27:06.634
– But that takes also the individuals and we’re

801
00:27:06.634 –> 00:27:07.835
– not just when I think when we get

802
00:27:07.835 –> 00:27:09.835
– caught up in these labels, people are performing

803
00:27:09.835 –> 00:27:11.674
– for each other. And and if we just

804
00:27:11.674 –> 00:27:13.134
– start being honest,

805
00:27:13.994 –> 00:27:16.755
– even when honesty isn’t flattering. Right? And that

806
00:27:16.795 –> 00:27:18.555
– and that’s the whole thing. Like, I think

807
00:27:18.555 –> 00:27:20.869
– when when there’s honesty, that’s the most important.

808
00:27:20.869 –> 00:27:22.150
– And I don’t think you need it’s not

809
00:27:22.150 –> 00:27:23.750
– even covered by insurance. Right? So you don’t

810
00:27:23.750 –> 00:27:26.150
– even need of the right diagnosis to get

811
00:27:26.150 –> 00:27:28.950
– help and to really start doing the honest

812
00:27:28.950 –> 00:27:29.450
– work.

813
00:27:29.910 –> 00:27:31.929
– So the question to me is never

814
00:27:32.325 –> 00:27:34.244
– about, like, having to fit in these little

815
00:27:34.244 –> 00:27:34.744
– boxes.

816
00:27:35.125 –> 00:27:36.884
– Right? It’s gonna be what’s going to help

817
00:27:36.884 –> 00:27:38.724
– this couple and what’s going to help them

818
00:27:38.724 –> 00:27:41.125
– now because we know that healing is for

819
00:27:41.125 –> 00:27:43.144
– everybody. But I do believe that

820
00:27:43.924 –> 00:27:47.279
– a path of a shame wound versus a

821
00:27:47.279 –> 00:27:49.679
– choice will dictate some things that will look

822
00:27:49.679 –> 00:27:52.559
– different. Yeah. If someone has a choice wound,

823
00:27:52.559 –> 00:27:54.000
– right, if we wanted to say they’re making

824
00:27:54.000 –> 00:27:56.980
– choices and they’re aware of that, then recovery

825
00:27:57.039 –> 00:27:59.045
– work, they’re gonna be sitting in a room.

826
00:27:59.045 –> 00:28:00.884
– You know, they may not late with certain

827
00:28:00.884 –> 00:28:02.644
– types of things. But if we look at

828
00:28:02.644 –> 00:28:04.164
– someone that just has a choice who does

829
00:28:04.164 –> 00:28:07.305
– need recovery work, they may be repeat offender

830
00:28:07.605 –> 00:28:09.525
– and be in more vulnerable situations. So I

831
00:28:09.525 –> 00:28:11.445
– think everything is nuanced. I don’t like to

832
00:28:11.445 –> 00:28:14.430
– have a a big Yeah. Continuum. Statement. Mhmm.

833
00:28:14.430 –> 00:28:16.029
– But it it is a continual. But I

834
00:28:16.029 –> 00:28:17.170
– do believe the

835
00:28:17.549 –> 00:28:20.109
– most important question to me is what’s going

836
00:28:20.109 –> 00:28:21.869
– to help this couple, or what’s gonna help

837
00:28:21.869 –> 00:28:23.789
– this man, or what’s gonna help this woman

838
00:28:23.789 –> 00:28:26.430
– that’s in front of me? And sometimes we

839
00:28:26.430 –> 00:28:27.570
– do need labels

840
00:28:28.424 –> 00:28:31.804
– because that also dictates treatments. So someone can’t

841
00:28:31.944 –> 00:28:34.264
– prescribe medication, so to speak, if we don’t

842
00:28:34.264 –> 00:28:36.744
– understand their symptoms, right, if we have a

843
00:28:36.744 –> 00:28:37.804
– tummy ache. So

844
00:28:38.264 –> 00:28:39.865
– so I think it’s not black and white,

845
00:28:39.865 –> 00:28:41.865
– but I think when as professionals, we get

846
00:28:41.865 –> 00:28:43.109
– caught up in things that can actually

847
00:28:44.150 –> 00:28:46.382
– hurt our clients. Yeah. Sure. Because we are

848
00:28:46.382 –> 00:28:46.673
– a CSAT. And I’m saying this is a

849
00:28:46.673 –> 00:28:47.829
– CSAT. If we are a CSAT, then we

850
00:28:47.829 –> 00:28:50.329
– have to follow this model. Mhmm. Right? And

851
00:28:50.630 –> 00:28:53.029
– if something doesn’t fit that model, then if

852
00:28:53.029 –> 00:28:54.549
– we make it fit, so to speak, then

853
00:28:54.549 –> 00:28:55.815
– we could be doing more harm to our

854
00:28:56.214 –> 00:28:58.054
– client. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. And that happened

855
00:28:58.054 –> 00:28:59.494
– to my wife and I a good amount.

856
00:28:59.494 –> 00:29:02.234
– I would say we spent year three recovering

857
00:29:02.454 –> 00:29:04.954
– from what was done to us therapeutically.

858
00:29:05.494 –> 00:29:07.095
– Just really drove you know, we’re not stupid

859
00:29:07.095 –> 00:29:08.694
– people. We love each other. The goal from

860
00:29:08.694 –> 00:29:10.370
– the out of the gates was to try

861
00:29:10.370 –> 00:29:12.410
– to stay together. And for me to prevent

862
00:29:12.410 –> 00:29:14.250
– this from happening again so I could get

863
00:29:14.250 –> 00:29:15.529
– to a confident place of where I can

864
00:29:15.529 –> 00:29:17.369
– say, no. I I understand this. I get

865
00:29:17.369 –> 00:29:18.890
– why this happened, and I feel like I’m

866
00:29:18.890 –> 00:29:20.490
– in a place now where I can that

867
00:29:20.490 –> 00:29:21.690
– was the whole goal out of the gates.

868
00:29:21.690 –> 00:29:23.855
– And I am telling you, I was forced

869
00:29:23.855 –> 00:29:26.255
– to be an addict. She was gaslit into

870
00:29:26.255 –> 00:29:28.095
– treating me like I was out of control

871
00:29:28.095 –> 00:29:29.375
– and that this was gonna happen and we

872
00:29:29.375 –> 00:29:30.654
– were doing check it. I mean, it was

873
00:29:30.654 –> 00:29:33.055
– driving me crazy how she was treating me.

874
00:29:33.055 –> 00:29:34.494
– She was just treating she was treating me

875
00:29:34.494 –> 00:29:36.414
– like a monster. Like, I it just it

876
00:29:36.414 –> 00:29:38.039
– was a problem I didn’t have and the

877
00:29:38.039 –> 00:29:39.720
– stuff that she was asking me every night

878
00:29:39.720 –> 00:29:41.080
– like, Oh, I bet you went to the

879
00:29:41.080 –> 00:29:42.680
– gym and did this. I’m like, I’ve never

880
00:29:42.680 –> 00:29:45.559
– done that before discovery or after discovery. I

881
00:29:45.559 –> 00:29:47.559
– just don’t do that to that’s just not

882
00:29:47.559 –> 00:29:48.539
– part of my thing.

883
00:29:48.840 –> 00:29:50.440
– So it was really tough and then that

884
00:29:50.440 –> 00:29:52.279
– drove us apart because I got tired of

885
00:29:52.279 –> 00:29:54.255
– her treating me like my mom and telling

886
00:29:54.255 –> 00:29:56.255
– me all this nonsense and not treating me

887
00:29:56.255 –> 00:29:58.654
– like a human being actually invite coming on

888
00:29:58.654 –> 00:30:00.494
– this recovery journey with me of, like, how

889
00:30:00.494 –> 00:30:02.095
– about I actually tell you what the problem

890
00:30:02.095 –> 00:30:04.255
– I actually have and let’s work together on

891
00:30:04.255 –> 00:30:05.615
– fixing that. I don’t want this in my

892
00:30:05.615 –> 00:30:07.615
– life anymore. I want you. Right? And I

893
00:30:07.615 –> 00:30:09.615
– wanna ask one final question because I think

894
00:30:09.667 –> 00:30:10.919
– but I want but before that, I want

895
00:30:10.919 –> 00:30:12.279
– you to tell me that quote you said

896
00:30:12.279 –> 00:30:13.799
– because it was so good. I wanna cut

897
00:30:13.799 –> 00:30:15.400
– it out and put it on Instagram. Are

898
00:30:15.400 –> 00:30:17.640
– we managing the crisis or are we how

899
00:30:17.640 –> 00:30:18.759
– did you say that? Because I thought it

900
00:30:18.759 –> 00:30:20.279
– was so great when you’re talking about the

901
00:30:20.279 –> 00:30:20.779
– couple.

902
00:30:21.559 –> 00:30:23.505
– Yeah. Yeah. You gotta remind me now. Are

903
00:30:23.505 –> 00:30:25.505
– we healing the marriage or are we managing

904
00:30:25.505 –> 00:30:26.945
– the crisis? Was that how how you said

905
00:30:26.945 –> 00:30:28.785
– it? Because it was so well hoarded. I’ll

906
00:30:28.785 –> 00:30:30.465
– have to rewind and get but it’s Yeah.

907
00:30:30.465 –> 00:30:31.985
– Yeah. I say that all the time though

908
00:30:31.985 –> 00:30:33.424
– is is what are we doing here? Are

909
00:30:33.424 –> 00:30:34.945
– we trying to prevent these two from getting

910
00:30:34.945 –> 00:30:36.625
– divorced or we’re actually, like, trying to create

911
00:30:36.625 –> 00:30:38.470
– a thriving marriage here? Because sometimes I look

912
00:30:38.470 –> 00:30:39.509
– at it and it’s like, I don’t know.

913
00:30:39.509 –> 00:30:41.029
– Sure looks we’re just sure looks like we’re

914
00:30:41.029 –> 00:30:41.529
– just

915
00:30:41.829 –> 00:30:42.569
– trying to prevent

916
00:30:42.869 –> 00:30:45.029
– prevent divorce. But the last thing I want

917
00:30:45.029 –> 00:30:46.309
– you to I think I think what I

918
00:30:46.309 –> 00:30:47.669
– was getting at, maybe this is what I

919
00:30:47.669 –> 00:30:49.750
– was referring to, is asking the couple, are

920
00:30:49.750 –> 00:30:51.815
– they building something real or they’re just managing

921
00:30:51.815 –> 00:30:53.095
– the price. That’s what you said. That’s what

922
00:30:53.095 –> 00:30:55.494
– you said. We’re building something real. That’s what

923
00:30:55.494 –> 00:30:57.095
– you said. And that’s so I love that

924
00:30:57.095 –> 00:30:59.015
– so much. Are we building something real? Because

925
00:30:59.015 –> 00:31:00.775
– I didn’t like healing the marriage because again,

926
00:31:00.775 –> 00:31:02.555
– that’s still some of this fantasy

927
00:31:02.934 –> 00:31:04.615
– stuff. I love what you said. We’re building

928
00:31:04.615 –> 00:31:06.269
– something real. Can I come in and be

929
00:31:06.269 –> 00:31:08.190
– honest with you? Can I tell you the

930
00:31:08.190 –> 00:31:08.690
– truth

931
00:31:09.309 –> 00:31:10.829
– about how what I’ve you know, can I

932
00:31:10.829 –> 00:31:13.069
– can I really share with you what’s going

933
00:31:13.069 –> 00:31:14.269
– on with me? And do we want an

934
00:31:14.269 –> 00:31:16.750
– honest real relationship even if it’s hard to

935
00:31:16.750 –> 00:31:18.109
– hear? Is that what we’re building? Or is

936
00:31:18.109 –> 00:31:19.869
– it telling you the stories you wanna hear

937
00:31:19.869 –> 00:31:21.644
– so that you can return to a place

938
00:31:21.644 –> 00:31:23.644
– of stability? And I I think I see

939
00:31:23.644 –> 00:31:25.325
– the latter more than I see the former.

940
00:31:25.325 –> 00:31:26.765
– And I don’t blame anyone for that. I

941
00:31:26.765 –> 00:31:28.205
– think it’s a very I think these are

942
00:31:28.205 –> 00:31:30.365
– very hard conversations. You know, it’s it’s it

943
00:31:30.365 –> 00:31:32.045
– was really hard when I finally told my

944
00:31:32.045 –> 00:31:34.380
– wife that I don’t buy into that mon

945
00:31:34.539 –> 00:31:35.919
– monogamy is not biologically

946
00:31:36.299 –> 00:31:37.919
– natural and that we have to

947
00:31:38.299 –> 00:31:40.460
– make the choice to comply with it and

948
00:31:40.460 –> 00:31:42.720
– build life and and protect ourselves from

949
00:31:43.259 –> 00:31:43.759
– biological

950
00:31:44.460 –> 00:31:46.059
– and it was really hard to say that

951
00:31:46.059 –> 00:31:47.404
– to her because I think she liked the

952
00:31:47.404 –> 00:31:50.285
– idea that my biology wanted wanted her. But

953
00:31:50.285 –> 00:31:52.444
– my biology wants her sometimes, but it also

954
00:31:52.444 –> 00:31:54.444
– wants other things sometimes. And but it was

955
00:31:54.444 –> 00:31:56.765
– in this real thing that we actually created

956
00:31:56.765 –> 00:31:58.365
– what I feel like is something that’s way

957
00:31:58.365 –> 00:32:00.289
– more safe because I finally don’t have to

958
00:32:00.289 –> 00:32:02.049
– hide that from her. I can actually have

959
00:32:02.049 –> 00:32:03.730
– a candid conversation with it. But my last

960
00:32:03.730 –> 00:32:05.089
– question is and this is a very real

961
00:32:05.089 –> 00:32:05.750
– one because

962
00:32:06.049 –> 00:32:07.809
– I wanna just you and I talked about

963
00:32:07.809 –> 00:32:09.009
– this last time, and I loved how you

964
00:32:09.009 –> 00:32:10.369
– worded it. And I wanna give you another

965
00:32:10.369 –> 00:32:11.650
– chance to speak to it because I think

966
00:32:11.650 –> 00:32:14.355
– especially for my population, this matters so much.

967
00:32:14.434 –> 00:32:17.654
– As humans, we’re tribal creatures. Okay? Which means

968
00:32:17.714 –> 00:32:20.515
– we wanna obtain a status that for our

969
00:32:20.515 –> 00:32:22.755
– biology feels like we’re gonna get our needs

970
00:32:22.755 –> 00:32:25.234
– met in that status. For high achieving men,

971
00:32:25.234 –> 00:32:26.994
– I believe that a lot of them want

972
00:32:26.994 –> 00:32:29.069
– to make an impact. They want to be

973
00:32:29.069 –> 00:32:30.609
– respected, admired, appreciated.

974
00:32:30.990 –> 00:32:33.150
– They want to be a valuable member of

975
00:32:33.150 –> 00:32:35.069
– the tribe who who made a difference, somebody

976
00:32:35.069 –> 00:32:37.309
– who who’s remembered when we’re gone. Legacy is

977
00:32:37.309 –> 00:32:39.230
– very important to high achieve all the high

978
00:32:39.230 –> 00:32:40.855
– achieving men in my groups. A lot of

979
00:32:40.855 –> 00:32:42.774
– them are in positions where they are seen

980
00:32:42.774 –> 00:32:44.615
– and they and they thrive there. They’re fulfilled

981
00:32:44.615 –> 00:32:46.214
– being there. It’s a lot of that is

982
00:32:46.214 –> 00:32:49.015
– in their DNA. Here’s the challenge. Our tribe

983
00:32:49.015 –> 00:32:50.794
– has also defined that successful

984
00:32:51.095 –> 00:32:51.595
– masculinity

985
00:32:51.974 –> 00:32:55.034
– is being lusted after, wanted. All the superheroes

986
00:32:55.255 –> 00:32:57.630
– are all single and have eight packs. Even

987
00:32:57.630 –> 00:33:00.269
– real people like quarterbacks and different movie stars

988
00:33:00.269 –> 00:33:02.269
– are upgrading their wives for newer and younger

989
00:33:02.269 –> 00:33:04.369
– models every couple you know, there is this

990
00:33:04.590 –> 00:33:06.910
– James Bond is my prime example. Right? When

991
00:33:06.910 –> 00:33:08.430
– the guy sleeps with four or five women

992
00:33:08.430 –> 00:33:10.269
– on every movie and marries none of them.

993
00:33:10.269 –> 00:33:11.869
– The point of all this is there’s been

994
00:33:11.869 –> 00:33:14.244
– this thing going on. All the new Apple

995
00:33:14.244 –> 00:33:15.525
– shows, I don’t know if you’ve watched any

996
00:33:15.525 –> 00:33:17.045
– of them. They’re all neighbors and friends. I

997
00:33:17.045 –> 00:33:18.565
– mean, I don’t think there’s a faithful couple

998
00:33:18.565 –> 00:33:20.805
– on that show. But, anyways, the point is

999
00:33:20.805 –> 00:33:23.305
– it’s shown all the time on TV that

1000
00:33:23.525 –> 00:33:25.285
– even if you are married, you still are

1001
00:33:25.285 –> 00:33:27.590
– getting attention and want attention. So there’s this

1002
00:33:27.590 –> 00:33:29.230
– whole thing that’s publicly shown. Then all of

1003
00:33:29.230 –> 00:33:30.950
– a sudden in our day to day relationships,

1004
00:33:30.950 –> 00:33:33.190
– it’s like, oh, that’s just television. That’s not

1005
00:33:33.190 –> 00:33:36.009
– real. But the issue is that is

1006
00:33:36.309 –> 00:33:37.990
– what’s shown and that is a lot of

1007
00:33:37.990 –> 00:33:40.065
– what’s going on. And I think there is

1008
00:33:40.065 –> 00:33:41.904
– a conflict of I wanna fit in with

1009
00:33:41.904 –> 00:33:43.585
– the tribe and do as the tribe does.

1010
00:33:43.585 –> 00:33:45.904
– And I think if men subscribe to successful

1011
00:33:45.904 –> 00:33:48.144
– male culture, I do think wanting to be

1012
00:33:48.144 –> 00:33:50.644
– wanted by women is certainly part of successful

1013
00:33:51.025 –> 00:33:53.105
– male culture. It’s everywhere. It’s in advertising. It’s

1014
00:33:53.424 –> 00:33:54.544
– so I I just wanna

1015
00:33:55.000 –> 00:33:56.119
– the reason I want and who I want

1016
00:33:56.119 –> 00:33:57.559
– you to speak to with this is actually

1017
00:33:57.559 –> 00:33:58.220
– the partners

1018
00:33:58.519 –> 00:34:01.480
– because they hear social conditioning as a cop

1019
00:34:01.480 –> 00:34:04.220
– out. To me, as tribal creatures, social conditioning,

1020
00:34:04.440 –> 00:34:06.359
– to me, has the power to bypass your

1021
00:34:06.359 –> 00:34:09.054
– marriage, bypass your kids, bypass your faith. I

1022
00:34:09.054 –> 00:34:10.894
– mean, I see people who want things purely

1023
00:34:10.894 –> 00:34:12.175
– because of what it will do to them

1024
00:34:12.175 –> 00:34:14.175
– socially, and that they throw all their morals

1025
00:34:14.175 –> 00:34:15.695
– and values out the window. It’s a to

1026
00:34:15.695 –> 00:34:17.454
– me, it’s a very real threat. It is

1027
00:34:17.454 –> 00:34:18.815
– in no way an excuse. And I think

1028
00:34:18.815 –> 00:34:20.894
– for high achieving men, because they want to

1029
00:34:20.894 –> 00:34:22.974
– make an impact to the tribe, doing what

1030
00:34:22.974 –> 00:34:25.989
– the tribe likes and finds impressive is very

1031
00:34:25.989 –> 00:34:27.349
– important to them. But I want you to

1032
00:34:27.349 –> 00:34:29.109
– speak to the betrayed partners on this as

1033
00:34:29.109 –> 00:34:31.109
– to how that’s because that’s probably, like, 90%

1034
00:34:31.109 –> 00:34:32.389
– of what we talk about in my program,

1035
00:34:32.389 –> 00:34:33.049
– is them

1036
00:34:33.829 –> 00:34:36.824
– realizing that impressing the tribe is actually not

1037
00:34:36.824 –> 00:34:38.425
– the path to a fulfilling life, that though

1038
00:34:38.425 –> 00:34:39.945
– they’re that the tribe will be impressed by

1039
00:34:39.945 –> 00:34:41.945
– whatever they’re impressed about, and fulfillment comes from

1040
00:34:41.945 –> 00:34:44.184
– whatever actually drives fulfillment. Though they’re actually two

1041
00:34:44.184 –> 00:34:45.945
– separate games to play in life, and we

1042
00:34:45.945 –> 00:34:47.625
– spend a ton of time talking about that

1043
00:34:47.625 –> 00:34:50.105
– because I believe impressing the tribe and feeling

1044
00:34:50.105 –> 00:34:52.500
– like the man is a massive motivator for

1045
00:34:52.500 –> 00:34:54.739
– them. But I do fear from so many

1046
00:34:54.739 –> 00:34:56.420
– people that it’s a cop out, that that’s

1047
00:34:56.420 –> 00:34:58.440
– actually not what’s going on. Can you explain

1048
00:34:59.059 –> 00:35:01.219
– the social conditioning aspect to a partner to

1049
00:35:01.219 –> 00:35:02.420
– the way that they can feel like that

1050
00:35:02.420 –> 00:35:04.644
– is actually, like, a legitimate thing that needs

1051
00:35:04.644 –> 00:35:06.644
– to be discussed as part of recovery. Oh,

1052
00:35:06.644 –> 00:35:08.484
– what’s the reason why we all post on

1053
00:35:08.484 –> 00:35:11.384
– social media? That we post our vacation pictures,

1054
00:35:11.444 –> 00:35:12.744
– we post our kids.

1055
00:35:13.204 –> 00:35:15.364
– Right? So when we think about there’s a

1056
00:35:15.364 –> 00:35:16.664
– certain level of validation

1057
00:35:17.045 –> 00:35:19.260
– you get, and it’s not about sharing with

1058
00:35:19.260 –> 00:35:21.599
– grandma who’s in, you know, South Dakota.

1059
00:35:22.059 –> 00:35:24.480
– You like the likes. You like the comments.

1060
00:35:24.940 –> 00:35:27.739
– And especially for some of my partners, when

1061
00:35:27.739 –> 00:35:29.519
– we kinda look at it from that standpoint,

1062
00:35:30.125 –> 00:35:32.364
– they’re checking their phone and they’re commenting to

1063
00:35:32.364 –> 00:35:34.284
– their partners. Oh, yes. Such and such made

1064
00:35:34.284 –> 00:35:36.284
– this comment. So if we kinda look at

1065
00:35:36.284 –> 00:35:38.864
– it in those micro doses of we all

1066
00:35:39.164 –> 00:35:41.484
– need some level of validation, and now we’re

1067
00:35:41.484 –> 00:35:41.984
– on

1068
00:35:42.300 –> 00:35:44.460
– steroids when it comes to social media, and

1069
00:35:44.460 –> 00:35:46.780
– when it comes to the world is now

1070
00:35:46.780 –> 00:35:49.099
– our stage. Mhmm. So when we now we

1071
00:35:49.099 –> 00:35:50.559
– kinda bring it down to

1072
00:35:51.340 –> 00:35:53.900
– the male partners, there is a certain level

1073
00:35:53.900 –> 00:35:54.400
– of

1074
00:35:54.780 –> 00:35:55.280
– achievements

1075
00:35:55.739 –> 00:35:56.400
– and validation

1076
00:35:57.224 –> 00:36:00.345
– and worth that’s not only socially cultured down

1077
00:36:00.345 –> 00:36:02.684
– from their fathers and through their generations,

1078
00:36:03.305 –> 00:36:05.224
– but then there’s also this still when we

1079
00:36:05.224 –> 00:36:07.545
– kinda look at right now the conversation with

1080
00:36:07.545 –> 00:36:08.985
– the World Cup going on, when you look

1081
00:36:08.985 –> 00:36:10.985
– at, like, the Messi’s and the Renato’s, and

1082
00:36:10.985 –> 00:36:13.440
– they’re looking at how they’re both respond to

1083
00:36:13.440 –> 00:36:15.199
– women and their wives and all these other

1084
00:36:15.199 –> 00:36:17.599
– things. There’s other people that are having different

1085
00:36:17.599 –> 00:36:20.239
– conversations. Well, there’s assumption because he’s getting all

1086
00:36:20.239 –> 00:36:21.139
– of this attention.

1087
00:36:21.599 –> 00:36:23.280
– But I think there’s a fine line. If

1088
00:36:23.280 –> 00:36:25.380
– we haven’t got attention, then we want attention.

1089
00:36:25.614 –> 00:36:27.614
– Yeah. Sure. Right? So we kind of bring

1090
00:36:27.614 –> 00:36:29.375
– all those nuances. So what I would share

1091
00:36:29.375 –> 00:36:31.215
– is that there’s a certain level of understanding

1092
00:36:31.215 –> 00:36:32.335
– if we kind of bring it to our

1093
00:36:32.335 –> 00:36:34.094
– own experience. And that’s why I talk to

1094
00:36:34.094 –> 00:36:36.655
– betrayed partners or even just the women because

1095
00:36:36.655 –> 00:36:38.670
– most of the time more times than not,

1096
00:36:38.750 –> 00:36:41.309
– in my experience, it’s more women who become

1097
00:36:41.309 –> 00:36:44.030
– more social media in tune. But there’s a

1098
00:36:44.030 –> 00:36:46.510
– reason. Right? You’re getting validation. If my child

1099
00:36:46.510 –> 00:36:48.349
– is now getting an a or we’re going

1100
00:36:48.349 –> 00:36:50.449
– to church and we’re posting our church dresses,

1101
00:36:50.589 –> 00:36:52.795
– there’s a certain level that you find that

1102
00:36:52.795 –> 00:36:54.875
– there’s achievement there. There’s a certain level of

1103
00:36:54.875 –> 00:36:55.375
– validation.

1104
00:36:55.755 –> 00:36:57.515
– But I think that what happens, this is

1105
00:36:57.515 –> 00:37:00.074
– where it comes the kicker for me, is

1106
00:37:00.074 –> 00:37:02.155
– it becomes when it comes to your spouse

1107
00:37:02.155 –> 00:37:04.074
– or your husband, it’s because there’s a threat

1108
00:37:04.074 –> 00:37:06.889
– there. Mhmm. There’s no threat to someone thumbing

1109
00:37:06.889 –> 00:37:08.809
– up your Easter dress for your daughter or

1110
00:37:08.809 –> 00:37:11.210
– whatever those types of things. But now there’s

1111
00:37:11.210 –> 00:37:12.750
– a threat of my husband

1112
00:37:13.130 –> 00:37:15.529
– is now wanting something that I can’t give

1113
00:37:15.529 –> 00:37:18.029
– him, then it becomes a threat to me.

1114
00:37:18.204 –> 00:37:19.804
– And that’s where we have to come out

1115
00:37:19.804 –> 00:37:22.125
– of the fantasy that we can’t be. Your

1116
00:37:22.125 –> 00:37:24.284
– wife can’t be everything for you and vice

1117
00:37:24.284 –> 00:37:26.625
– versa. Right? But there’s an interdependent

1118
00:37:27.005 –> 00:37:28.684
– model. Right? You could be dependent on each

1119
00:37:28.684 –> 00:37:30.525
– other, but you also need to have independence,

1120
00:37:30.525 –> 00:37:32.204
– which is why we teach the seven areas

1121
00:37:32.204 –> 00:37:33.739
– of life. Mhmm. You also have to have

1122
00:37:33.739 –> 00:37:35.339
– friends. You have your careers. You have your

1123
00:37:35.339 –> 00:37:37.019
– hobbies. Like, you get your needs met in

1124
00:37:37.019 –> 00:37:39.500
– other areas. Mhmm. It is a fantasy, the

1125
00:37:39.500 –> 00:37:41.900
– twin flames, and, you know, you’re my soulmate.

1126
00:37:41.900 –> 00:37:44.059
– Throw those things out. Right? One that’s too

1127
00:37:44.059 –> 00:37:45.440
– much pressure for one person.

1128
00:37:45.914 –> 00:37:47.675
– And if the fastest way to see you

1129
00:37:47.675 –> 00:37:49.054
– kill a man’s spirit

1130
00:37:49.355 –> 00:37:51.035
– is just tell him that just come home

1131
00:37:51.035 –> 00:37:53.355
– and Mhmm. Be all about the family and

1132
00:37:53.355 –> 00:37:55.195
– the kids, so to speak. Don’t go out

1133
00:37:55.195 –> 00:37:57.355
– golfing. Don’t go ahead and try to achieve

1134
00:37:57.355 –> 00:37:58.335
– that next promotion.

1135
00:37:58.820 –> 00:38:00.820
– I mean, that’s unfair. Mhmm. But that’s because

1136
00:38:00.820 –> 00:38:02.179
– it’s a threat. It’s a threat to the

1137
00:38:02.179 –> 00:38:04.260
– relationship, which why people double down on it.

1138
00:38:04.260 –> 00:38:06.679
– But we all need some level of validation.

1139
00:38:06.739 –> 00:38:09.079
– His validation may come from a different source.

1140
00:38:09.219 –> 00:38:11.139
– And then as you mentioned, the society kind

1141
00:38:11.139 –> 00:38:13.105
– of doubles down on that. We think it’s

1142
00:38:13.105 –> 00:38:14.785
– entertaining. Right? I don’t know if you’re watching

1143
00:38:14.785 –> 00:38:16.385
– right now, though. On Netflix, they’re all talking

1144
00:38:16.385 –> 00:38:18.224
– about the polygamous Yes. Yes. Look at the

1145
00:38:18.224 –> 00:38:18.724
– African

1146
00:38:19.025 –> 00:38:21.265
– show. I mean, it’s like, right. But why

1147
00:38:21.265 –> 00:38:23.664
– are we all having this conversation? Right? Because

1148
00:38:23.664 –> 00:38:25.285
– it’s bringing up all these topics,

1149
00:38:25.670 –> 00:38:26.950
– and that is is that is one of

1150
00:38:26.950 –> 00:38:29.130
– them when the validation now supersedes

1151
00:38:29.829 –> 00:38:31.510
– what is good for the relationship, and that’s

1152
00:38:31.510 –> 00:38:33.710
– where the real conversation is. Yes. Thank you.

1153
00:38:33.910 –> 00:38:34.410
– Podcast.

1154
00:38:34.869 –> 00:38:37.210
– Yes. So well worded. Yes. A 100%.

1155
00:38:37.269 –> 00:38:40.065
– Well, Ginny, as always, you’re so well freaking

1156
00:38:40.144 –> 00:38:41.744
– spoken. That was, like, my first email to

1157
00:38:41.744 –> 00:38:43.364
– you two years ago. I went to your

1158
00:38:43.585 –> 00:38:45.184
– Instagram or YouTube, and I was like, oh,

1159
00:38:45.184 –> 00:38:46.545
– oh my gosh. This is gonna be a

1160
00:38:46.545 –> 00:38:49.425
– killer episode because you just deliver the message

1161
00:38:49.425 –> 00:38:51.984
– so well, and you’re so brilliant and intelligent.

1162
00:38:51.984 –> 00:38:53.670
– I let’s I always loved how you word

1163
00:38:53.670 –> 00:38:55.109
– everything. So thank you for coming on. I

1164
00:38:55.109 –> 00:38:56.809
– know this is gonna be a well digested

1165
00:38:56.869 –> 00:38:59.670
– episode. If people do have desire to work

1166
00:38:59.670 –> 00:39:01.349
– with you because it’s there are a lot

1167
00:39:01.349 –> 00:39:03.670
– of people who want somebody who has this

1168
00:39:03.670 –> 00:39:05.429
– very human approach. You know, I’m not gonna

1169
00:39:05.429 –> 00:39:07.190
– diagnose you. I’m not gonna call you something.

1170
00:39:07.190 –> 00:39:09.554
– I’m not gonna force you. I’m your therapist.

1171
00:39:09.554 –> 00:39:11.074
– I’m gonna help you guys thrive in the

1172
00:39:11.074 –> 00:39:12.675
– way that you tell me to thrive. It’s

1173
00:39:12.675 –> 00:39:14.355
– hard to find some therapists like that, especially

1174
00:39:14.355 –> 00:39:16.195
– in this space. So if they do resonate

1175
00:39:16.195 –> 00:39:17.554
– with your message, how do they find you?

1176
00:39:17.554 –> 00:39:19.394
– What’s the website? Do you have groups? Kinda

1177
00:39:19.394 –> 00:39:20.855
– talk a little bit about your practice.

1178
00:39:21.210 –> 00:39:22.969
– Yeah. Absolutely. So the best way to find

1179
00:39:22.969 –> 00:39:25.210
– me is janie lacy dot com, j a

1180
00:39:25.210 –> 00:39:27.130
– n I e l a c y. I

1181
00:39:27.130 –> 00:39:28.989
– have a master class. I have a foundations.

1182
00:39:29.050 –> 00:39:30.889
– I have a twelve week group, and then

1183
00:39:30.889 –> 00:39:33.369
– we have a monthly low tier where people

1184
00:39:33.369 –> 00:39:35.144
– could just get into community with each other.

1185
00:39:35.144 –> 00:39:36.585
– So we have all the things that are

1186
00:39:36.585 –> 00:39:38.344
– primarily for women. So they or they can

1187
00:39:38.344 –> 00:39:40.105
– just Google me. I will come up. And

1188
00:39:40.105 –> 00:39:41.545
– then for the guys who wanna work with

1189
00:39:41.545 –> 00:39:43.144
– you, where are you licensed? Do you have

1190
00:39:43.144 –> 00:39:44.985
– a coaching product? Talked about who can work

1191
00:39:44.985 –> 00:39:47.559
– with you. Yeah. So I’m licensed in the

1192
00:39:47.559 –> 00:39:49.719
– state of Florida, but I am also I

1193
00:39:49.719 –> 00:39:51.019
– have a coaching certification

1194
00:39:51.880 –> 00:39:52.780
– from the integrative

1195
00:39:53.079 –> 00:39:55.639
– attachment theory thesis Gibson, so I am part

1196
00:39:55.639 –> 00:39:57.400
– of that coaching school. So I work with

1197
00:39:57.400 –> 00:39:58.619
– men and women in couples.

1198
00:39:58.954 –> 00:40:00.875
– Cool. Cool. Cool. Well, this is so wonderful.

1199
00:40:00.875 –> 00:40:02.315
– I love it. I cannot wait to air

1200
00:40:02.315 –> 00:40:03.914
– this episode. I might scoot you a little

1201
00:40:03.914 –> 00:40:05.434
– earlier in line so that we can get

1202
00:40:05.434 –> 00:40:06.954
– this one out there. Because this is just

1203
00:40:06.954 –> 00:40:08.875
– a conversation that I really want to start

1204
00:40:08.875 –> 00:40:11.195
– echoing in this community that there’s options here.

1205
00:40:11.195 –> 00:40:12.875
– And if it doesn’t feel right, it might

1206
00:40:12.875 –> 00:40:14.550
– not be right. And you might have to

1207
00:40:14.550 –> 00:40:16.309
– ask some more questions. So thank you for

1208
00:40:16.309 –> 00:40:17.910
– creating such a safe space for everybody. I

1209
00:40:17.910 –> 00:40:19.369
– appreciate it. My pleasure.

1210
00:40:20.710 –> 00:40:22.869
– Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1211
00:40:22.869 –> 00:40:24.630
– are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1212
00:40:24.630 –> 00:40:26.390
– and you’re looking for a recovery group full

1213
00:40:26.390 –> 00:40:29.454
– of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1214
00:40:29.454 –> 00:40:32.255
– We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1215
00:40:32.255 –> 00:40:33.635
– using four day retreats,

1216
00:40:33.934 –> 00:40:36.735
– weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1217
00:40:36.735 –> 00:40:38.894
– If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1218
00:40:38.894 –> 00:40:40.849
– save your marriage, go to our website and

1219
00:40:40.849 –> 00:40:43.170
– fill out an application. If you enjoyed this

1220
00:40:43.170 –> 00:40:45.410
– episode, please pass it along to a friend

1221
00:40:45.410 –> 00:40:47.329
– in recovery who would benefit from listening. It

1222
00:40:47.329 –> 00:40:49.170
– is my mission to get this information out

1223
00:40:49.170 –> 00:40:51.570
– to as many high achievers as possible, and

1224
00:40:51.570 –> 00:40:53.190
– I can’t do it without your help.