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In this podcast, I interview Cheryl Camarello. Cheryl

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and I met at a training and we

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discovered we both treat the same population, high

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achieving entrepreneurial men. And in this episode, we

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talk about how your recovery needs to be

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customized, how addiction, yes, while it is one

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element, you know, there's a lot of other

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elements to be addressed, especially with high achieving

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men. There's a lot of reasons why high

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achievers act out sexually and addiction isn't always

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the reason. So we talk about this in

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this episode and how you need to customize

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your recovery

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to go forward, whether you're an addict or

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whether you're compulsive.

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And on this topic, for those of you

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who have not read my book, my book

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is available on Amazon and is also available

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on audible for those of you who like

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to listen to it. I'll put a link

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in the show notes. But my book book

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really addresses this, how addiction, yes, while it

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is one of the elements, it's not the

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only thing that can drive a man to

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act out sexually, especially if you are a

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high achiever or an entrepreneur. So be sure

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to jump down in the link and check

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that out on Amazon or on Audible if

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you want to listen to the book. With

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that, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles specifically

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to the mindset of the high achiever. I'm

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your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The Successful

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Addict, a recovery group for high achieving men

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struggling with sex and porn addiction. For more

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information about joining our group or attending our

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next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Cheryl, I'm so excited for this episode. You

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and I first met at a training together,

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with doctor Manwala, which is if any of

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everybody hasn't looked into his white paper of

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the secret sexual basement, I would highly recommend

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it. It's so such an interesting angle. Right?

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This concept of

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deceptive sexuality

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rather than focusing on the addiction. Now I'm

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not saying that there's not an addictive component.

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I'm not saying because there certainly is.

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I'm not saying that we don't need to

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look at the actual ins and outs of

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why the behavior happens. But I think looking

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at it and calling it deceptive sexuality,

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is kind of neat because it opens the

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doors to a bunch of other areas that

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I think if you're gonna make a really,

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you know, a complete recovery,

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you really need to look at some of

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that. Right? Because Mhmm. The the lying is

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kind of an interesting aspect, and it's not

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necessarily gonna go away

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with addiction treatment unless we look at the

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the reason for the deception. But we'll get

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into that in a bit. But what Cheryl

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and I are gonna talk about today is

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is kind of exciting. It's,

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we're gonna bop around, I'm sure, in a

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bunch of different directions, but we're gonna talk

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about approaching

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recovery in a effective way so that you

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can recover. I mean, I I don't know

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if you agree with this or not, Cheryl,

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but to me, when I

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see guys who get recovery really, really well

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and guys who it takes a little bit

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longer, it really comes down to the approach,

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in terms of how they're thinking about what

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it is that they're trying to overcome. Would

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you would you would you agree or disagree

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or would you add to that?

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I think,

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I I I would say that everybody has

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their own recipe that they need in order

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to help them move to the next level.

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And,

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you were one of those people that when

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I listened to you, I was like, you

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know,

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that is a different perspective

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that helps a certain core,

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set of people that I see in my

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practice. And so I see some that are,

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like, super you know, I can go out

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there and I can do all of this.

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And then I had to see some that

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are, like, you know, I keep hitting the

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same thing over and over and,

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you know, they're they're not figuring out their

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pathway. Yeah. And then there's, you know, there's

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the others that are, like, they, you know,

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just show shine the light. Doctor, Manuela likes

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to say, illuminate the way. And it's like

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Yeah. Once you give some of these guys

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the illumination, especially these,

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you know, guys that are, you know, entrepreneurs

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and CEOs and stuff like that, just give

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them the light so they can find their

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way. They they will you know, they'll be

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way ahead of the pack, but, you know,

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as long as they know that they're not

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gonna fall over a cliff or something, they

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will look for all the pieces. So Oh,

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and I really respect you for that too

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because I think there is this temptation

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in the just medical not even therapy, just

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medical community to keep everybody in house. Right?

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It's like, oh, we gotta we gotta keep

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we gotta help all of our patients.

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But I really respect you, Sho, because you

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have,

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groups. You help guys, and I but I

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really I respect the fact that when you

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see a guy and you're like, that's a

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Roland guy, I respect that, you have always

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referred them over to me. I really honor

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that because it's I've always done that in

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my, different businesses and areas of practices.

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Mhmm. If if there's a better fit, send

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them off to that place. You know? Don't

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don't you know? Not everybody's meant to fit

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every single person, which I think all tees

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us up right to kinda where we're gonna

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talk about, which is, you know, I first

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wanna bring,

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light to and again, all my podcast listeners

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are gonna, you know, it's like a broken

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record because I say this over and over,

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but I I I think we need to

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say it over and over because to your

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point, Cheryl, your recovery

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and the moments and the connecting of the

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dots, it's gonna be unique to you. The

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thing the same moment for another guy that

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got him to break into, you know, that

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moment of, like, oh my gosh, you know,

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that's what sobriety is. That moment's gonna be

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different because it's a process addiction,

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not a sex addiction. I really dislike calling

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this a sex or a porn addiction because

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I think those words make it sound like

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we are addicted to those things. Mhmm. When

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in reality, we're addicted to the thought process

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that surrounds those things. And I think that's

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to your point.

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Every single person, their process is gonna be

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different. Different childhood, different upbringing, different goals, different

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aspirations,

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different sense of self, and they're gonna be

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reaching for different things. And, you know, you

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kinda have to make

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to me,

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the key

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normally, I say this kind of for the

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end of the episode. I'm gonna do it

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at the beginning of the episode. To me,

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the key

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to recovery

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is you taking the wheel and then using

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the sex addiction field to help you. Would

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you agree or disagree?

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I 100% agree with that. Not everybody's gonna

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get the benefit of one specific thing.

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There's even people that just are not gonna

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get anything from therapy at the at whatever

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particular moment in their life and or a

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particular moment in their, you know, working towards

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sobriety and a better healthy way of living.

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So,

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but, you know, the nice thing is is

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that I don't have to,

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see people and look at their deepest darkest,

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you know, secrets. I think,

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it's just as important to kind of look

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at, you know, again, what we said. It's

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like how to,

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how to live your life, and live it,

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well

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and not be chained, to the to the

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whole concept of I'm an addict. I really

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can't, handle that,

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label when some of my, clients get stuck

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on, you know, I'm a sex addict, I'm

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a porn addict. And, you know, when when

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you're looking at at labels like that, then

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you're basically claiming that's a core part of

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yourself. And I'm like, that is a behavior.

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It is not who you are. So Mhmm.

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And that's my criticism

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of 12 step. I I I get the

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philosophy of 12 step. I get why it

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works. I get why it's grown in popularity.

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It's so great that it's free.

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Here's a here's a free place that you

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can connect with other addicts.

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The challenge I always had when I went

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there was the attitude. I mean, it was

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like everyone's relapsing all the time and this

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you know? And but to me, the the

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way they approached it was quite strange, you

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know. I've I've never had a substance addiction,

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so I've never been I've never gone to

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AA or NA or anything else. I've only

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gone to twelve step for this. And, yeah,

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the approach was really interesting. It was, you

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know, we all go around the circle and

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introduce ourselves. And I I I said that

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I was a sex addict for a while

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because that's what they forced me to say.

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But, you know, after about five or six

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months, I was, like, you know, it'd be

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my turn to introduce myself, and I would

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say, I'm rolling and I'm happy to be

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here.

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And and they would always pause after because

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they're, like, hey, aren't you gonna tell us,

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like, and I'm like, no. I'm I'm I'm

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rolling. I'm not a sex addict, you know.

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And I I had a bunch of these

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things kinda happen to me, and I started

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latching on to these behaviors

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compulsively.

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But I am not a sex addict. I'm

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not gonna say that. You're not gonna catch

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me that. And the other one that kinda

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bothered me and really put me off was

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this powerlessness concept. I'm all about surrender, I

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get that, and I'm all about, like, accepting

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your situation and your reality and owning your

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strengths and owning your weaknesses. Giving away your

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power, that always kinda put me off too

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as I was like, man.

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So I started telling the groups, hey. I

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I said, guys, I don't mean to say

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any disrespect. I'm gonna come

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ten minutes late so that I can kinda

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skip that whole beginning part because I said,

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you know, it really kinda puts me off.

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And then I'll come come in here and

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hang out with you guys for the rest

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of the session. We can do our shares,

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but, you know, I don't wanna recite things

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that I find unhelpful. Now that doesn't mean

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it's gonna be unhelpful for everybody. But for

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me as a high achiever,

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giving away my power and also changing my

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identity to something that I'm not proud of,

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I don't know. That just that didn't really

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work for me.

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00:08:55,365 --> 00:08:56,964
I think in if you look at it

263
00:08:56,964 --> 00:08:57,784
from the,

264
00:08:58,164 --> 00:09:00,664
like, the view of doctor Minwalla, the

265
00:09:01,379 --> 00:09:03,799
the issue of power and control isn't necessarily

266
00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:06,420
like that, you know, other people need to

267
00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:07,940
run your life or god needs to run

268
00:09:07,940 --> 00:09:09,720
your life, but I really feel like,

269
00:09:10,259 --> 00:09:12,840
the manipulation it's the the manipulative

270
00:09:13,379 --> 00:09:13,879
behavior

271
00:09:14,384 --> 00:09:16,065
that you need to give up. That is

272
00:09:16,065 --> 00:09:18,225
the power and control. So when you can

273
00:09:18,225 --> 00:09:19,285
stop being manipulative

274
00:09:19,745 --> 00:09:22,325
about how you can secretly keep your behavior,

275
00:09:22,785 --> 00:09:24,865
then you're gonna be on a a better

276
00:09:24,865 --> 00:09:27,659
pathway, and your partner's certainly gonna love that,

277
00:09:27,819 --> 00:09:30,059
you know, no more lies or, you know,

278
00:09:30,059 --> 00:09:32,860
less lying because everybody lies. Doctor Minwalla will

279
00:09:32,860 --> 00:09:35,659
tell you that too. Everybody lies. Mhmm. It's

280
00:09:35,659 --> 00:09:37,579
the degree of lying and how much pain

281
00:09:37,579 --> 00:09:39,899
that causes in other people and yourself when

282
00:09:39,899 --> 00:09:42,134
you're doing that. So Yeah. It's a and

283
00:09:42,134 --> 00:09:43,815
that's why I kinda like the title of

284
00:09:43,815 --> 00:09:45,595
deceptive sexuality because,

285
00:09:46,774 --> 00:09:48,134
you know, in the end, a lot of

286
00:09:48,215 --> 00:09:49,815
you know, sex is a is a human

287
00:09:49,815 --> 00:09:51,174
need. We all have it. We all like

288
00:09:51,174 --> 00:09:53,174
it. We all enjoy it. We all need

289
00:09:53,174 --> 00:09:55,690
to do some some variation of it. And

290
00:09:55,690 --> 00:09:57,050
so I think I like I like calling

291
00:09:57,050 --> 00:09:58,509
it deceptive sexuality

292
00:09:58,810 --> 00:10:01,129
versus focusing on the addictive component per se

293
00:10:01,129 --> 00:10:02,889
because, you know, really the issue at hand

294
00:10:02,889 --> 00:10:05,210
is you're lying about this. You're doing it

295
00:10:05,210 --> 00:10:07,850
behind people's back. They are having sex within

296
00:10:07,850 --> 00:10:09,610
you and you might be engaging in high

297
00:10:09,610 --> 00:10:10,830
risk sexual behaviors.

298
00:10:11,684 --> 00:10:13,384
They might not wanna be with a guy

299
00:10:13,524 --> 00:10:15,764
who doesn't see an issue with the adult

300
00:10:15,764 --> 00:10:16,585
film industry.

301
00:10:17,045 --> 00:10:18,745
You know, if if they knew that,

302
00:10:19,285 --> 00:10:20,485
it might not even be the fact that

303
00:10:20,485 --> 00:10:21,684
you watch it and that might not even

304
00:10:21,684 --> 00:10:23,285
be the the porn of masturbation. It could

305
00:10:23,285 --> 00:10:26,430
just be, hey. Like, I really fundamentally disagree

306
00:10:26,730 --> 00:10:28,970
with the adult film industry and how they

307
00:10:28,970 --> 00:10:31,610
operate and I don't really feel comfortable being

308
00:10:31,610 --> 00:10:33,529
with or married to a guy who doesn't

309
00:10:33,529 --> 00:10:35,610
agree with that. Right? So and that's and

310
00:10:35,610 --> 00:10:36,830
that's where that transparency

311
00:10:37,504 --> 00:10:39,584
is really the issue is, hey. Let's just

312
00:10:39,584 --> 00:10:41,105
be honest about all this and just have

313
00:10:41,105 --> 00:10:42,725
a conversation so you're not,

314
00:10:43,184 --> 00:10:45,664
hiding, the things because that's, you know, that's

315
00:10:45,825 --> 00:10:47,745
Yeah. A huge issue. And I think that

316
00:10:47,745 --> 00:10:49,664
kinda bleeds nicely into what we're talking about

317
00:10:49,664 --> 00:10:51,205
today. You know, I think

318
00:10:51,879 --> 00:10:53,720
when I you know, after about probably two

319
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,959
years of going to 12 step meetings, I

320
00:10:55,959 --> 00:10:57,839
finally started speaking up a little bit. I

321
00:10:57,839 --> 00:10:59,559
I felt a little bad because I know

322
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,000
we're not supposed to do that in the

323
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,759
meetings. You're supposed to kinda shut up and

324
00:11:02,759 --> 00:11:04,894
keep to yourself and read the book. But

325
00:11:04,894 --> 00:11:06,815
finally, I started have I was telling you,

326
00:11:06,815 --> 00:11:08,054
I'm like, guys, I think you guys need

327
00:11:08,054 --> 00:11:09,455
to chill out. I was like, I think

328
00:11:09,455 --> 00:11:10,975
you guys are being way too hard on

329
00:11:10,975 --> 00:11:13,455
yourself. You know, one of my criticisms of

330
00:11:13,455 --> 00:11:15,794
SA is the emphasis on lust.

331
00:11:17,179 --> 00:11:19,519
I get it. I think I think lusting,

332
00:11:19,820 --> 00:11:21,659
you know, maybe we should tone that down

333
00:11:21,659 --> 00:11:23,659
or watch it, become more aware. But at

334
00:11:23,659 --> 00:11:24,879
the same time, I think,

335
00:11:25,419 --> 00:11:27,259
you know, there is an aspect of sex

336
00:11:27,259 --> 00:11:29,264
appeal and sexual attraction that

337
00:11:29,825 --> 00:11:32,545
is biological and there's not necessarily anything wrong

338
00:11:32,545 --> 00:11:34,644
with it. So I think the challenge with

339
00:11:35,024 --> 00:11:36,485
some of the way

340
00:11:36,945 --> 00:11:39,445
that guys approach this out of the gates,

341
00:11:39,985 --> 00:11:42,165
I don't know if it's a sustainable practice.

342
00:11:42,225 --> 00:11:42,804
I think

343
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,200
I think we're demonizing the wrong thing. I

344
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:46,100
think we're demonizing

345
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,040
the behavior when we really should be going

346
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,220
a little bit further upstream and demonizing

347
00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:53,759
how did this behavior happen in the first

348
00:11:53,759 --> 00:11:56,160
place. Right? I mean, to me, when I

349
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:56,820
see this,

350
00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,695
I I just had a podcast episode come

351
00:11:58,695 --> 00:12:00,215
out two days ago. It was called I

352
00:12:00,215 --> 00:12:01,654
don't know get what I I can't remember

353
00:12:01,654 --> 00:12:02,855
the title. It was something like, I don't

354
00:12:02,855 --> 00:12:04,855
get why everyone's so shocked that guys are

355
00:12:04,855 --> 00:12:05,674
hiding this.

356
00:12:06,134 --> 00:12:07,815
It's really not shocking at all to me.

357
00:12:07,815 --> 00:12:09,975
It makes perfect it makes perfect sense. Right?

358
00:12:09,975 --> 00:12:11,495
Here they are. They have all these sexual

359
00:12:11,495 --> 00:12:13,389
needs and all they're told, you know, it's

360
00:12:13,389 --> 00:12:14,830
kind of changing in the new world, but

361
00:12:14,830 --> 00:12:16,610
all they were told back in my day

362
00:12:17,070 --> 00:12:18,830
was bad, bad, bad, don't do this, don't

363
00:12:18,830 --> 00:12:20,830
do that, don't talk about that, don't think

364
00:12:20,830 --> 00:12:22,429
about that. It was all don't, don't, don't.

365
00:12:22,429 --> 00:12:24,289
Everything was don't. Mhmm. So,

366
00:12:24,669 --> 00:12:26,589
here I am with these urges. My take

367
00:12:26,589 --> 00:12:29,625
home message was there's this is just in

368
00:12:29,625 --> 00:12:30,745
me and there's nothing I can do to

369
00:12:30,745 --> 00:12:32,684
stop this. I'm not inviting any of this

370
00:12:32,745 --> 00:12:35,144
in my life. It's happening inside of me.

371
00:12:35,144 --> 00:12:36,664
And so I kept it a secret and

372
00:12:36,664 --> 00:12:38,684
I also did nothing to change it because

373
00:12:38,824 --> 00:12:40,584
I didn't know I could change it because

374
00:12:40,584 --> 00:12:42,184
all I ever heard was don't do it.

375
00:12:42,184 --> 00:12:43,704
And if you do it, you're a bad

376
00:12:43,704 --> 00:12:46,740
person, sick person, gross person, immature person, whatever.

377
00:12:46,879 --> 00:12:48,480
And so I didn't wanna tell anybody because

378
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,080
I was like, well, I guess I just

379
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,920
have something wrong with me. And I do

380
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,259
think that's kind of the problem with diagnosing

381
00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:56,980
these men is you then enter

382
00:12:57,324 --> 00:12:58,625
the recovery process

383
00:12:59,644 --> 00:13:01,964
feeling like there's something really, really wrong with

384
00:13:01,964 --> 00:13:03,884
you, when in reality, to me, it makes

385
00:13:03,884 --> 00:13:05,565
perfect sense that this has happened to these

386
00:13:05,565 --> 00:13:06,065
men.

387
00:13:07,084 --> 00:13:09,345
You know, I think, when you talk about,

388
00:13:10,389 --> 00:13:12,629
you know, how you progressed with your,

389
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:15,029
you the messages and stuff that happened when

390
00:13:15,029 --> 00:13:17,269
you were growing up, I can't tell you,

391
00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:19,429
like, one of the main pieces I have

392
00:13:19,429 --> 00:13:21,350
to talk to these men about and these

393
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:23,269
women is, did you talk to your kids

394
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:24,164
about sex?

395
00:13:24,565 --> 00:13:26,824
Did you talk to your kids about masturbation?

396
00:13:27,044 --> 00:13:30,004
Because guess what? They're exposed to so much

397
00:13:30,004 --> 00:13:30,904
online, and,

398
00:13:31,845 --> 00:13:34,485
you really need to have discussions about, you

399
00:13:34,485 --> 00:13:36,725
know, anonymous kinds of things. You need to

400
00:13:36,725 --> 00:13:39,470
have discussions about sexting and put putting your

401
00:13:39,470 --> 00:13:41,790
stuff out there, and it's like, there's, you

402
00:13:41,790 --> 00:13:43,910
know, even so now, there's even more of

403
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:45,950
a need to be open and honest and,

404
00:13:46,830 --> 00:13:49,570
you know, direct with your with your kids.

405
00:13:49,790 --> 00:13:50,610
The secretiveness

406
00:13:50,910 --> 00:13:52,509
that you're talking about, you know, like, shut

407
00:13:52,509 --> 00:13:54,425
it down because we don't wanna encourage that

408
00:13:54,425 --> 00:13:55,325
kind of behavior.

409
00:13:55,705 --> 00:13:57,644
Guess what? The behavior continued.

410
00:13:58,184 --> 00:14:00,264
And then I get the 40, 50, and

411
00:14:00,264 --> 00:14:02,445
60 year olds who are like, you know,

412
00:14:02,504 --> 00:14:04,184
hey. What can I say? This is the

413
00:14:04,184 --> 00:14:05,545
way, you know, this is the way it's

414
00:14:05,545 --> 00:14:07,304
been. As long as nobody found out, it

415
00:14:07,304 --> 00:14:08,205
was all good.

416
00:14:08,779 --> 00:14:10,459
You know, it's it's when it, you know,

417
00:14:10,459 --> 00:14:12,379
just didn't it just didn't fit with the

418
00:14:12,379 --> 00:14:14,779
relationship that it's like, okay. I I really

419
00:14:14,779 --> 00:14:17,019
do need to change it. Right? So but,

420
00:14:17,019 --> 00:14:19,019
you know, did you talk to your boys?

421
00:14:19,019 --> 00:14:21,600
That's that's one of those things that I

422
00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:23,815
make sure that they hear because, you know,

423
00:14:23,815 --> 00:14:25,254
do they want their boys to walk away

424
00:14:25,254 --> 00:14:27,254
with shame and guilt about Right. You know,

425
00:14:27,254 --> 00:14:29,815
how their bodies work? Right. Right. I work

426
00:14:29,815 --> 00:14:31,995
with 15 year olds that, like, are inappropriate

427
00:14:32,934 --> 00:14:33,414
and,

428
00:14:33,815 --> 00:14:36,695
you know, it it's normal. Just choose a

429
00:14:36,695 --> 00:14:39,149
different behavior. Like, there's different ways to meet

430
00:14:39,149 --> 00:14:40,990
your urges and your needs. You don't need

431
00:14:40,990 --> 00:14:42,830
to, you know, do whatever it is that

432
00:14:42,830 --> 00:14:44,750
makes them say, go see Sheryl the kiln

433
00:14:44,750 --> 00:14:47,070
for her. Yeah. Right. Well, because it is.

434
00:14:47,070 --> 00:14:49,470
There's I mean, you know, these kids, these

435
00:14:49,470 --> 00:14:52,029
boys are asking for nude photos from these

436
00:14:52,029 --> 00:14:54,314
girls at the ages of, like, nine and

437
00:14:54,314 --> 00:14:56,314
10 and, you know, so these are things

438
00:14:56,314 --> 00:14:57,294
we need to discuss

439
00:14:57,674 --> 00:14:59,595
because, you know, in a lot of ways,

440
00:14:59,595 --> 00:15:01,214
again, these these behaviors

441
00:15:01,595 --> 00:15:02,095
inherently

442
00:15:02,634 --> 00:15:04,014
are not bad.

443
00:15:04,875 --> 00:15:07,240
It makes perfect sense that someone would wanna

444
00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,120
see a naked picture of the opposite gender.

445
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,220
That makes a lot of sense. There's biological

446
00:15:12,279 --> 00:15:14,779
aspects to that. There's just genuine human curiosity

447
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,480
around that. So again, it's not I think

448
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:18,379
when we demonize,

449
00:15:18,924 --> 00:15:20,445
and this happens every time. If I hear

450
00:15:20,445 --> 00:15:21,985
a guy slip or a guy relapses,

451
00:15:22,285 --> 00:15:24,065
I always say, yep. Okay. It happened,

452
00:15:24,445 --> 00:15:25,665
but let's not demonize

453
00:15:26,524 --> 00:15:28,304
what you did. Let's demonize

454
00:15:28,684 --> 00:15:30,764
why you did it. And I think that,

455
00:15:30,764 --> 00:15:32,445
at least for me, Cheryl, that was what

456
00:15:32,445 --> 00:15:35,139
got me the soberest the fastest. When the

457
00:15:35,139 --> 00:15:37,379
behavior was the demon and I was trying

458
00:15:37,379 --> 00:15:38,820
to avoid it, stop it, and if I

459
00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:40,100
ever did it, you know, there was all

460
00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:41,879
this guilt and shame around it.

461
00:15:42,259 --> 00:15:43,860
Instead, I kinda changed it, and I was

462
00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:46,659
like, alright. Hey. That's gonna happen and, when

463
00:15:46,659 --> 00:15:48,419
it happens, then it happens, and that's why

464
00:15:48,419 --> 00:15:50,125
it happens. But I'm not gonna focus really

465
00:15:50,125 --> 00:15:51,105
on that because

466
00:15:51,644 --> 00:15:53,325
let's be real, like, everybody knows this. Once

467
00:15:53,325 --> 00:15:55,085
that ritual has begun, oh my gosh, you're

468
00:15:55,085 --> 00:15:57,325
probably gonna slip. You're probably gonna start. It's

469
00:15:57,325 --> 00:15:58,845
really hard to stop. The only thing that

470
00:15:58,845 --> 00:16:00,605
stop that ritual is reaching out to, you

471
00:16:00,605 --> 00:16:02,924
know, some sort of appear. But otherwise, once

472
00:16:02,924 --> 00:16:04,465
you've dipped your toe in,

473
00:16:04,870 --> 00:16:07,269
it's pretty much a guarantee slip or relapse

474
00:16:07,269 --> 00:16:09,029
at that point. So that's what I'm saying,

475
00:16:09,029 --> 00:16:10,389
rather than focusing all the way down there,

476
00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:11,830
because it's kind of a lost cause at

477
00:16:11,830 --> 00:16:14,389
that point Yeah. Go upstream and see where

478
00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:16,170
did I learn that this

479
00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:18,710
was a good idea. Right? You know, where

480
00:16:18,950 --> 00:16:20,649
what what taught me that

481
00:16:21,295 --> 00:16:23,875
flirting with women and getting their attention

482
00:16:24,335 --> 00:16:26,815
was valuable. Right? Where did I learn where

483
00:16:26,815 --> 00:16:28,335
did I learn that, and why do and

484
00:16:28,335 --> 00:16:29,855
why did I keep carrying it with me.

485
00:16:29,855 --> 00:16:31,375
Right? Because if you go back, I mean,

486
00:16:31,375 --> 00:16:33,715
to use flirting and girls' attention, for example,

487
00:16:33,774 --> 00:16:36,799
that really started in probably grade school. Right?

488
00:16:36,799 --> 00:16:39,079
You know, oh, does she like you? Right.

489
00:16:39,079 --> 00:16:41,019
So you're starting to desire

490
00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:44,519
this young girl's attention as young as fourth

491
00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:47,100
or fifth grade or something. Right? Well, kindergarten,

492
00:16:47,799 --> 00:16:49,720
first grade. If you were a kid of

493
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,335
a teacher, teachers will kind of say, like,

494
00:16:52,335 --> 00:16:54,254
I picked out your girlfriend. You know? Yeah.

495
00:16:54,254 --> 00:16:55,934
See. You got, like, a six or seven

496
00:16:55,934 --> 00:16:57,394
year old, and it was just like,

497
00:16:58,095 --> 00:16:59,774
you know, it was funny to me. But

498
00:16:59,774 --> 00:17:01,455
now when I work in this field, it's

499
00:17:01,455 --> 00:17:02,274
kind of like,

500
00:17:02,654 --> 00:17:04,990
yeah. I don't know about, you know, about

501
00:17:04,990 --> 00:17:07,230
the teasing, about crushes and stuff like that

502
00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:08,589
because then they don't know what to do

503
00:17:08,589 --> 00:17:11,069
with all these feelings. Some are embarrassed and

504
00:17:11,069 --> 00:17:12,750
others are like, yeah. I got a little

505
00:17:12,750 --> 00:17:14,910
girlfriend. You know? So Well, it is. It's

506
00:17:14,910 --> 00:17:16,670
a it's a because it's, you know, a

507
00:17:16,670 --> 00:17:18,194
lot of this it's it's a lot of

508
00:17:18,434 --> 00:17:20,194
cultural, and that's what I really talk about

509
00:17:20,194 --> 00:17:22,134
in my book is Mhmm. Is

510
00:17:22,595 --> 00:17:23,095
culturally,

511
00:17:23,554 --> 00:17:25,714
we've arrived to this place. And so I

512
00:17:25,714 --> 00:17:26,454
don't think,

513
00:17:26,755 --> 00:17:28,434
you know, I think when we demonize these

514
00:17:28,434 --> 00:17:30,755
men and call them names or label them,

515
00:17:30,755 --> 00:17:31,575
I think that's

516
00:17:32,034 --> 00:17:34,169
the absolute wrong thing to do. And then

517
00:17:34,169 --> 00:17:36,329
again, when we demonize the behavior and focus

518
00:17:36,329 --> 00:17:38,089
too much on the behavior, again, I just

519
00:17:38,089 --> 00:17:41,129
don't I I think I feel to me,

520
00:17:41,129 --> 00:17:43,289
I actually don't demonize the head behavior. I

521
00:17:43,289 --> 00:17:45,369
actually I know this is gonna sound really

522
00:17:45,369 --> 00:17:48,034
unpopular. So when I would, like, you know,

523
00:17:48,034 --> 00:17:49,394
go and do some edging, and then I

524
00:17:49,394 --> 00:17:50,515
would have to tell my wife because that

525
00:17:50,515 --> 00:17:51,714
was part of, you know, if I did

526
00:17:51,714 --> 00:17:53,394
any kind of edging behavior as part of

527
00:17:53,394 --> 00:17:53,875
our,

528
00:17:54,755 --> 00:17:56,355
part of our thing is to for me

529
00:17:56,355 --> 00:17:57,794
to check that in. And,

530
00:17:58,515 --> 00:18:00,115
but, you know, I kinda took a different

531
00:18:00,115 --> 00:18:02,434
approach, Cheryl. I took the approach of, like,

532
00:18:02,434 --> 00:18:03,970
yeah. Of course, you wanna look at a

533
00:18:03,970 --> 00:18:04,710
naked girl.

534
00:18:05,089 --> 00:18:07,730
Of course. Mhmm. Why wouldn't you? Like, yeah,

535
00:18:07,730 --> 00:18:09,669
like, yeah. It's incredibly stimulating,

536
00:18:10,769 --> 00:18:13,730
extremely captivating. There's nothing else that you could

537
00:18:13,730 --> 00:18:15,589
really look at that is as captivating

538
00:18:15,890 --> 00:18:18,184
as that. And so I almost started agreeing

539
00:18:18,244 --> 00:18:20,164
with my different parts of me that acted

540
00:18:20,164 --> 00:18:21,525
out. It was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of

541
00:18:21,525 --> 00:18:23,204
course, you wanna get attention. Of course, you

542
00:18:23,204 --> 00:18:24,964
wanna flirt. Of course, you want her to

543
00:18:24,964 --> 00:18:27,285
comment on how well dressed you are. Of

544
00:18:27,285 --> 00:18:28,825
course, you want people to celebrate

545
00:18:29,140 --> 00:18:30,579
how hard of a worker you are, how

546
00:18:30,579 --> 00:18:32,660
much money you've made, how you know, of

547
00:18:32,660 --> 00:18:33,160
course.

548
00:18:33,619 --> 00:18:34,119
And

549
00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:38,259
let's go back to, like, what we're trying

550
00:18:38,259 --> 00:18:39,619
to do, we're trying to build. I think

551
00:18:39,619 --> 00:18:41,380
that's the problem is if we keep going

552
00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:44,134
at the end and demonizing that, you're demonizing

553
00:18:44,195 --> 00:18:46,375
something that actually makes perfect sense

554
00:18:46,835 --> 00:18:48,995
given the context of this individual's life. And

555
00:18:48,995 --> 00:18:50,674
I think that's, you know, my opinion, I

556
00:18:50,674 --> 00:18:52,835
think that's where everyone really starts to go

557
00:18:52,835 --> 00:18:55,654
wrong is when we inject it with this

558
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:56,660
puritanical,

559
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,460
you know, kind of culture and ideals,

560
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,080
it makes it really hard in my opinion,

561
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:03,680
it makes it really hard to recover from

562
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,460
what we really need to recover from.

563
00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:07,440
Yeah. I,

564
00:19:08,255 --> 00:19:09,855
I was thinking about what you were saying.

565
00:19:09,855 --> 00:19:11,295
I I let me see if I can

566
00:19:11,295 --> 00:19:12,035
bring it back.

567
00:19:12,654 --> 00:19:14,894
I really believe in making an autopsy of

568
00:19:14,894 --> 00:19:16,975
your behavior. I don't wanna I don't wanna,

569
00:19:17,695 --> 00:19:19,154
overfocus on the,

570
00:19:19,455 --> 00:19:21,730
you know, the actual sexual acting out. I

571
00:19:21,730 --> 00:19:23,569
want you to think about what wasn't going

572
00:19:23,569 --> 00:19:25,490
well with you. You know, if if it's,

573
00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:27,730
of course, I wanted attention or, of course,

574
00:19:27,730 --> 00:19:29,910
my eyes popped out when I saw that.

575
00:19:30,049 --> 00:19:30,950
Well, you know,

576
00:19:31,329 --> 00:19:33,809
some some guys have learned to, like, just

577
00:19:33,809 --> 00:19:34,630
kind of, like,

578
00:19:35,174 --> 00:19:37,575
you know, block it out compartmentalize or whatever

579
00:19:37,575 --> 00:19:38,154
it is,

580
00:19:38,775 --> 00:19:41,015
you know, because that's that's important to their

581
00:19:41,015 --> 00:19:43,495
marriage. You know? The you know, if I'm,

582
00:19:43,495 --> 00:19:45,894
like, overly, you know, staring or whatever it

583
00:19:45,894 --> 00:19:46,555
is. But,

584
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,320
yeah, I just I highly believe in, like,

585
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:51,299
I had somebody

586
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:53,619
doing that, you know,

587
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,080
you had I gave your book to somebody

588
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,480
that, you know, couldn't quite understand. Like, oh,

589
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,160
I'm just such a horrible person, and I

590
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:01,519
did this, this, and this, and this. And

591
00:20:01,519 --> 00:20:04,444
I'm like, well, what was going on? Like,

592
00:20:04,444 --> 00:20:06,765
oh, I had this job change. I had

593
00:20:06,765 --> 00:20:09,005
this, you know, challenge with a coworker. I

594
00:20:09,005 --> 00:20:10,865
had a boss doing this, and it's like,

595
00:20:11,404 --> 00:20:12,704
okay. You know,

596
00:20:13,005 --> 00:20:14,765
that only tells me you needed to do

597
00:20:14,765 --> 00:20:17,005
some more self care. It was just too

598
00:20:17,005 --> 00:20:19,190
easy to to go to something you recognized

599
00:20:19,329 --> 00:20:19,829
was

600
00:20:20,369 --> 00:20:22,929
great. Right? That was a good feeling. It's

601
00:20:22,929 --> 00:20:24,690
on it's been on the list. It's so

602
00:20:24,690 --> 00:20:26,049
easy to put it back on the list,

603
00:20:26,049 --> 00:20:27,890
and it's like, okay. Pull it back off

604
00:20:27,890 --> 00:20:29,410
the list because it ain't working for your

605
00:20:29,410 --> 00:20:32,690
relationship. So Exactly. That right there is the

606
00:20:32,690 --> 00:20:33,464
point is,

607
00:20:33,865 --> 00:20:35,304
you know, when we again, when we're too

608
00:20:35,304 --> 00:20:38,585
zoomed in, again, you're you're demonizing something that

609
00:20:38,585 --> 00:20:39,865
really your brain is like

610
00:20:40,585 --> 00:20:42,184
it's like on one hand, you're like, oh,

611
00:20:42,184 --> 00:20:43,304
I can't do that. I can't do that

612
00:20:43,304 --> 00:20:45,065
again. But your brain's kinda like, I don't

613
00:20:45,065 --> 00:20:47,130
know. I really enjoy it. Right? Like, I

614
00:20:47,130 --> 00:20:49,849
really love I really love, you know, having

615
00:20:49,849 --> 00:20:52,250
those interactions. Right? And so it's like you're

616
00:20:52,250 --> 00:20:54,570
over here saying, no. It's not enjoyable, but

617
00:20:54,570 --> 00:20:55,930
your brain's like, but, yeah, it is. It's

618
00:20:55,930 --> 00:20:57,849
like I always tell people it's like arguing

619
00:20:57,849 --> 00:20:59,369
with a teenager. I mean, if you've raised

620
00:20:59,369 --> 00:21:00,029
a teenager,

621
00:21:00,525 --> 00:21:02,765
that's very similar to, like, sex addiction recovery.

622
00:21:02,765 --> 00:21:04,625
You're Mhmm. You're having a very

623
00:21:05,005 --> 00:21:05,505
difficult

624
00:21:06,125 --> 00:21:06,625
conversation

625
00:21:07,404 --> 00:21:09,484
with your brain and your brain is just

626
00:21:09,484 --> 00:21:11,565
like, no. I like the sexual stuff. I

627
00:21:11,565 --> 00:21:13,164
like looking at it. I like doing it.

628
00:21:13,164 --> 00:21:15,549
I like when women tell me this. And

629
00:21:15,549 --> 00:21:18,109
your brain's got a really good argument. I

630
00:21:18,109 --> 00:21:20,269
mean, it really does. And so to me,

631
00:21:20,269 --> 00:21:20,769
recovery

632
00:21:21,470 --> 00:21:24,769
in this realm is is way more challenging.

633
00:21:24,830 --> 00:21:26,430
I I don't even like calling it addiction

634
00:21:26,430 --> 00:21:28,674
because people compare it to substance addiction and

635
00:21:28,674 --> 00:21:31,075
I really dislike that because Mhmm. You don't

636
00:21:31,075 --> 00:21:34,195
need cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine to survive. You don't

637
00:21:34,195 --> 00:21:36,615
need it. But do you need respect, admiration?

638
00:21:36,914 --> 00:21:39,154
Do you need to feel wanted, desired? Do

639
00:21:39,154 --> 00:21:41,394
you need yeah. And so I think comparing

640
00:21:41,394 --> 00:21:43,980
the two is is dangerous because there's a

641
00:21:43,980 --> 00:21:45,680
lot of aspects of

642
00:21:46,059 --> 00:21:49,660
what you're getting from these various unwanted sexual

643
00:21:49,660 --> 00:21:51,740
behaviors. There's a lot of them that are

644
00:21:51,740 --> 00:21:52,240
truly

645
00:21:53,180 --> 00:21:53,680
meeting

646
00:21:54,059 --> 00:21:57,434
real needs, like actually meeting them. Now are

647
00:21:57,434 --> 00:21:59,434
there other consequences? Are there better ways to

648
00:21:59,434 --> 00:22:01,434
get it? Sure. Of course. But that's I

649
00:22:01,434 --> 00:22:03,195
I think we need to again, that's another

650
00:22:03,195 --> 00:22:05,695
challenge with demonizing behaviors. It's like

651
00:22:06,075 --> 00:22:08,815
you're probably doing it. You're probably actually getting

652
00:22:09,299 --> 00:22:11,960
something from it that you really do need.

653
00:22:12,740 --> 00:22:15,140
Now here's before we skip away from that

654
00:22:15,140 --> 00:22:16,980
topic, I wanna I wanna highlight something for

655
00:22:16,980 --> 00:22:17,799
everybody listening.

656
00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:21,460
How long does it last? Yeah. Seconds, if

657
00:22:21,460 --> 00:22:23,700
not if not, doesn't even last at all.

658
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:25,505
Right? So I think that's where we

659
00:22:25,884 --> 00:22:27,644
can start again when we now zoom out

660
00:22:27,644 --> 00:22:29,644
away from the behavior. It's like, hey, did

661
00:22:29,644 --> 00:22:31,904
that one night stand actually solve

662
00:22:32,765 --> 00:22:34,224
my feeling unwanted?

663
00:22:34,765 --> 00:22:36,924
Right? No. Because she has no idea who

664
00:22:36,924 --> 00:22:38,285
you are. You probably gave her a fake

665
00:22:38,285 --> 00:22:40,099
name. So, like, in the end, does she

666
00:22:40,099 --> 00:22:42,339
actually want you if you guys have no

667
00:22:42,339 --> 00:22:43,960
ability of ever speaking again?

668
00:22:44,259 --> 00:22:46,599
Yeah. You know? No. So that's not real

669
00:22:46,659 --> 00:22:48,259
connection. Right? And that's how if we go

670
00:22:48,259 --> 00:22:50,500
back upstream and we see, okay, what is

671
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:52,500
it that I'm trying to get? Now we

672
00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:54,644
can sell the brain on, hey, I know

673
00:22:54,644 --> 00:22:56,484
this one's really, really great, but if we

674
00:22:56,484 --> 00:22:57,625
take this avenue,

675
00:22:58,805 --> 00:23:00,884
you know, I think that's gonna actually last.

676
00:23:00,884 --> 00:23:03,365
Right? The the those feelings will will carry

677
00:23:03,365 --> 00:23:05,285
that into the next day, the next week,

678
00:23:05,285 --> 00:23:06,910
the next month. You know, I think I

679
00:23:06,910 --> 00:23:08,670
think that's to me where I sold my

680
00:23:08,670 --> 00:23:10,349
brain because my brain wants me to be

681
00:23:10,349 --> 00:23:12,190
happy. And the second I could sell my

682
00:23:12,190 --> 00:23:14,269
brain on, hey. I actually have a better

683
00:23:14,269 --> 00:23:16,349
strategy that's actually gonna work. It's not gonna

684
00:23:16,349 --> 00:23:18,589
be quite as exciting as yours, but it's

685
00:23:18,589 --> 00:23:20,430
but it's gonna last and it'll and it'll

686
00:23:20,430 --> 00:23:22,394
hang with us. So the the overall

687
00:23:22,934 --> 00:23:26,454
average of good emotions is way higher than

688
00:23:26,454 --> 00:23:28,535
your little short peak of emotion. But, you

689
00:23:28,535 --> 00:23:30,134
know, I think that's, you know, to me

690
00:23:30,134 --> 00:23:31,575
as I'm trying to summarize, like, how to

691
00:23:31,575 --> 00:23:32,474
approach recovery,

692
00:23:33,095 --> 00:23:34,234
I do. I think

693
00:23:34,535 --> 00:23:36,474
I think if you go into it

694
00:23:37,470 --> 00:23:39,710
if you go into it thinking that you're

695
00:23:39,710 --> 00:23:41,970
crazy for acting the way that you're acting,

696
00:23:42,349 --> 00:23:43,869
you're gonna have a hard time recovery because

697
00:23:43,869 --> 00:23:46,289
there's really nothing crazy about it. Mhmm.

698
00:23:46,670 --> 00:23:48,349
Well, it's gonna feed the I need to

699
00:23:48,349 --> 00:23:49,984
lie about this. Right? Correct.

700
00:23:50,365 --> 00:23:52,605
Because if it pops up, that's one of

701
00:23:52,605 --> 00:23:55,085
the things that I really love working with

702
00:23:55,085 --> 00:23:56,924
couples when I do work with the couples

703
00:23:56,924 --> 00:24:00,065
is talking about what's transparency and what's translucency.

704
00:24:00,845 --> 00:24:03,085
Transparency is if if I need to give

705
00:24:03,085 --> 00:24:04,525
you the truth, I'll give it all to

706
00:24:04,525 --> 00:24:05,720
you. Translucency

707
00:24:06,019 --> 00:24:08,179
is, you know, I'll just give you part

708
00:24:08,179 --> 00:24:09,619
of the truth because I don't wanna hurt

709
00:24:09,619 --> 00:24:12,099
you. Yeah. But guess what? She fills in

710
00:24:12,099 --> 00:24:13,940
the blanks, and it's way worse than what

711
00:24:13,940 --> 00:24:15,799
you were gonna be doing. So,

712
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:18,305
you know, for a lot of a lot

713
00:24:18,305 --> 00:24:20,785
of people that that, is something they have

714
00:24:20,785 --> 00:24:22,865
to kind of work through now. Does that

715
00:24:22,865 --> 00:24:24,785
mean you need to be, you know, a

716
00:24:24,785 --> 00:24:25,525
100%

717
00:24:25,984 --> 00:24:28,705
transparent on day one and unload everything that

718
00:24:28,705 --> 00:24:29,105
you have?

719
00:24:29,779 --> 00:24:31,380
You know, no. Because you have to think

720
00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:33,559
about how much damage is that gonna cause,

721
00:24:34,259 --> 00:24:37,460
and getting a coach or a therapist or

722
00:24:37,460 --> 00:24:39,319
somebody to be able to help you

723
00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:41,779
figure out how to provide that. A lot

724
00:24:41,779 --> 00:24:43,779
of people like to say, well, disclosure is

725
00:24:43,779 --> 00:24:45,695
a great, you know, a great tool.

726
00:24:46,335 --> 00:24:48,015
And it is for some and it isn't

727
00:24:48,015 --> 00:24:50,095
for others. Like, again, this is, like, not

728
00:24:50,095 --> 00:24:50,575
one,

729
00:24:51,215 --> 00:24:53,535
you know, one stop shop. Like, everybody has

730
00:24:53,535 --> 00:24:55,695
a different way of handling disclosure. It could

731
00:24:55,695 --> 00:24:58,414
be, you know, everything's filled out, like, you

732
00:24:58,414 --> 00:25:00,240
know, bad, you know, bad tummy ache or

733
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,400
whatever, and then others are like, you know,

734
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,140
oh, yeah.

735
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:03,940
Compartmentalize

736
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,500
that one. Oh, yeah. I compartmentalize

737
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,640
that one. And it's like, I don't know

738
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,080
why I lied, and I don't know why

739
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,305
I don't remember. And I'm like, because you

740
00:25:12,305 --> 00:25:14,325
learned that when you were little, you know?

741
00:25:14,865 --> 00:25:16,944
When you bring up a it's I just

742
00:25:16,944 --> 00:25:19,585
interviewed Dan Drake probably four or five weeks

743
00:25:19,585 --> 00:25:21,825
ago. And for everybody listening, you guys can

744
00:25:21,825 --> 00:25:23,825
go back to Dan Drake's episode. He is

745
00:25:23,825 --> 00:25:25,265
the guy who wrote the book that you

746
00:25:25,265 --> 00:25:27,669
and your wife probably used for disclosure because

747
00:25:27,669 --> 00:25:30,230
everybody uses it for but Dan Drake, right

748
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:32,869
on my episode said, Roland, I in no

749
00:25:32,869 --> 00:25:35,929
way intended for this to become the

750
00:25:36,390 --> 00:25:38,869
disclosure bible that every couple I mean, he

751
00:25:38,869 --> 00:25:40,970
will he says right on my podcast,

752
00:25:41,595 --> 00:25:44,315
this is for whoever it's for. And I

753
00:25:44,315 --> 00:25:46,474
think everyone needs to hear that because I

754
00:25:46,474 --> 00:25:48,154
do Sheryl, I I so agree. I was

755
00:25:48,154 --> 00:25:49,835
just talking about this the other day. One

756
00:25:49,835 --> 00:25:52,315
of my criticisms in this field is and

757
00:25:52,315 --> 00:25:54,095
it's funny, Sheryl, because I don't think anyone's

758
00:25:54,839 --> 00:25:55,980
saying it.

759
00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:57,980
It's just kind of one of those implied

760
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,599
things that everyone's kinda picking up on. But

761
00:26:00,599 --> 00:26:03,559
there has kind of become this, like, no,

762
00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:05,079
this is what you do in the first

763
00:26:05,079 --> 00:26:07,240
six months. And I do agree with you.

764
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,420
I think that's a little dangerous because

765
00:26:10,105 --> 00:26:10,924
there are

766
00:26:11,384 --> 00:26:14,105
there are wives who want every little freaking

767
00:26:14,105 --> 00:26:16,684
detail down to the scent, down to,

768
00:26:17,065 --> 00:26:18,585
they wanna know where it was, they wanna

769
00:26:18,585 --> 00:26:19,865
know when it was, they wanna know how

770
00:26:19,865 --> 00:26:21,304
much money was spent, they wanna know the

771
00:26:21,304 --> 00:26:22,825
name of the hotel. There are some people

772
00:26:22,825 --> 00:26:24,970
who wanna know everything. I believe, like, my

773
00:26:24,970 --> 00:26:26,970
wife personally was one of those people. I

774
00:26:26,970 --> 00:26:28,909
know the way my wife brain works,

775
00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:31,130
she needed to know everything. It just if

776
00:26:31,130 --> 00:26:33,210
she didn't, she was gonna be obsessing about

777
00:26:33,210 --> 00:26:34,890
it forever and ever and ever. So in

778
00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:37,210
our case, I really do think that the

779
00:26:37,210 --> 00:26:37,710
stereotypical

780
00:26:40,285 --> 00:26:43,724
disclosure model was actually was actually necessary, and

781
00:26:43,724 --> 00:26:45,964
it worked. I really I really do think.

782
00:26:45,964 --> 00:26:46,464
Now

783
00:26:46,765 --> 00:26:48,945
have I seen people where the stereotypical

784
00:26:49,484 --> 00:26:51,244
way of doing it was was,

785
00:26:53,090 --> 00:26:54,789
was not effective? Absolutely.

786
00:26:55,090 --> 00:26:56,609
And so I think you all really need

787
00:26:56,609 --> 00:26:57,830
to think, hey.

788
00:26:58,850 --> 00:27:00,850
Just because you do this doesn't mean that

789
00:27:00,850 --> 00:27:02,369
it's right. You know, you just need to

790
00:27:02,369 --> 00:27:04,150
ask yourself, hey. Why

791
00:27:05,144 --> 00:27:07,065
why what am I gonna do with all

792
00:27:07,065 --> 00:27:09,465
this information and what's what what's what pot

793
00:27:09,545 --> 00:27:10,365
is it gonna

794
00:27:10,744 --> 00:27:12,904
help me? Right? Is it really gonna help?

795
00:27:12,904 --> 00:27:14,345
You know, because there's a big difference. Just

796
00:27:14,345 --> 00:27:16,345
because you can ask and just because he

797
00:27:16,424 --> 00:27:18,125
you can have him take a polygraph,

798
00:27:18,679 --> 00:27:20,279
just because those are options are on the

799
00:27:20,279 --> 00:27:23,339
table doesn't mean that's necessarily the right,

800
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,740
the right thing to do. It's it's,

801
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,359
I mean, I found the disclosure process extremely

802
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,440
traumatic for me. I mean, it really it

803
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:31,740
did a number on our

804
00:27:32,054 --> 00:27:33,754
marriage. I I I really

805
00:27:34,134 --> 00:27:37,115
resented her for making me do something so

806
00:27:37,254 --> 00:27:39,494
horrific. You know, it's I'm strapped up. I

807
00:27:39,494 --> 00:27:41,014
got all these wires and things on me.

808
00:27:41,014 --> 00:27:42,774
I'm getting a lie detector test. Now in

809
00:27:42,774 --> 00:27:45,575
the end, do I did I put myself

810
00:27:45,575 --> 00:27:47,174
in a situation where now I had to

811
00:27:47,174 --> 00:27:49,099
do this to get us on equal ground?

812
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,920
Okay. And that's why I did it, was

813
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,200
I get it. I put her in a

814
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,519
really unfair position and now she's just asking

815
00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:56,440
me to do some uncomfortable things so that

816
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:57,880
we can get back to level. But again,

817
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,039
Cheryl, to your point, that was the goal.

818
00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:01,019
The goal was

819
00:28:01,785 --> 00:28:04,424
I want to do something to equalize this

820
00:28:04,424 --> 00:28:05,625
so that we can try and save the

821
00:28:05,625 --> 00:28:06,904
marriage. That was our goal out of the

822
00:28:06,904 --> 00:28:09,305
gates. Mhmm. It was not, you need to

823
00:28:09,305 --> 00:28:11,644
do this because you're a bad person and

824
00:28:12,105 --> 00:28:14,025
this is what you deserve and you're gonna

825
00:28:14,025 --> 00:28:15,690
you're gonna own up to all. I think,

826
00:28:15,690 --> 00:28:17,710
you know, when it's treated as, like, hey,

827
00:28:17,849 --> 00:28:19,529
this is a punishment, this is what you

828
00:28:19,529 --> 00:28:22,089
get Mhmm. Which oftentimes I think that's kinda

829
00:28:22,089 --> 00:28:23,929
sometimes how it goes down. Mhmm.

830
00:28:24,329 --> 00:28:26,970
Okay. Is that really what the relationship needs

831
00:28:26,970 --> 00:28:28,569
right now? But I think, you know, again,

832
00:28:28,569 --> 00:28:29,549
I pride myself.

833
00:28:29,994 --> 00:28:31,275
I give my wife a lot of credit.

834
00:28:31,275 --> 00:28:33,214
Her rationale was,

835
00:28:33,595 --> 00:28:35,194
listen, I need to know everything or I'm

836
00:28:35,194 --> 00:28:36,575
gonna I'm gonna go crazy,

837
00:28:37,275 --> 00:28:38,714
and we need to just get to a

838
00:28:38,714 --> 00:28:40,394
place where I know everything and you and

839
00:28:40,394 --> 00:28:42,075
I can kind of deal with all of

840
00:28:42,075 --> 00:28:44,220
the facts and I wanna I wanna verify

841
00:28:44,220 --> 00:28:45,660
my polygraph, and I wanna do it right

842
00:28:45,660 --> 00:28:47,259
here in front of our therapy team so

843
00:28:47,259 --> 00:28:48,619
that we can work on this. But, again,

844
00:28:48,619 --> 00:28:50,380
remember, do you hear the energy there? The

845
00:28:50,380 --> 00:28:52,859
energy was, I want to do this because

846
00:28:52,859 --> 00:28:54,220
I think if we don't, I don't know

847
00:28:54,220 --> 00:28:55,920
how I'm gonna get past this.

848
00:28:56,295 --> 00:28:58,934
That was the motive. Not, oh, everyone says

849
00:28:58,934 --> 00:29:00,215
that we need to do this, so we're

850
00:29:00,215 --> 00:29:02,055
gonna do it and not think anything any

851
00:29:02,055 --> 00:29:03,894
of it or ask any questions. You know,

852
00:29:03,894 --> 00:29:05,595
I I do agree with you. I think,

853
00:29:05,894 --> 00:29:07,035
you know, as a couple,

854
00:29:07,494 --> 00:29:09,494
don't just give somebody else the wheel. You

855
00:29:09,494 --> 00:29:11,920
know, ask questions. Find out, you know, why.

856
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,720
What's the psychology behind that? And then if

857
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,000
they explain it and you're like, well, that

858
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,920
doesn't sound helpful to someone like my husband

859
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,320
and I, then maybe skip that part of

860
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:21,599
the step and then you just go and

861
00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:23,599
do the one before and after. But on

862
00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:24,820
this topic of the coupleship,

863
00:29:25,865 --> 00:29:28,125
we were talking about how guys can enter

864
00:29:29,065 --> 00:29:31,144
recovery with a kind of a healthy way

865
00:29:31,144 --> 00:29:32,504
of thinking about it to get more out

866
00:29:32,504 --> 00:29:35,004
of it. Let's talk about the first crisis

867
00:29:35,144 --> 00:29:35,644
phase

868
00:29:35,944 --> 00:29:36,444
of

869
00:29:36,984 --> 00:29:38,044
the coupleship.

870
00:29:38,424 --> 00:29:38,924
So

871
00:29:40,049 --> 00:29:40,789
same thing,

872
00:29:41,170 --> 00:29:43,970
what you know, in your opinion, what if

873
00:29:44,130 --> 00:29:47,090
how can guys approach this situation? And remember,

874
00:29:47,090 --> 00:29:49,330
in crisis, how can guys approach this in

875
00:29:49,330 --> 00:29:49,830
crisis

876
00:29:50,370 --> 00:29:50,870
Mhmm.

877
00:29:51,250 --> 00:29:53,250
And how should they not approach this in

878
00:29:53,250 --> 00:29:53,750
crisis?

879
00:29:55,394 --> 00:29:57,795
I'm gonna just start with a not, because

880
00:29:57,795 --> 00:29:59,475
this is, like, one of my things. It's

881
00:29:59,475 --> 00:30:01,975
like, don't tell her to get over it.

882
00:30:02,115 --> 00:30:04,115
Yeah. Don't tell her I'm not gonna do

883
00:30:04,115 --> 00:30:04,855
it again.

884
00:30:05,394 --> 00:30:07,315
Don't tell her she didn't mean anything to

885
00:30:07,315 --> 00:30:09,634
me or this doesn't doesn't mean anything to

886
00:30:09,634 --> 00:30:12,670
me. It it doesn't matter. The the it's

887
00:30:12,670 --> 00:30:14,990
not the reasons or the words. It's the

888
00:30:14,990 --> 00:30:16,529
feeling. You've caused pain.

889
00:30:16,910 --> 00:30:19,710
Okay? And, you know, that's what she needs

890
00:30:19,710 --> 00:30:22,269
help with. I have pain. Are you you

891
00:30:22,269 --> 00:30:22,769
know

892
00:30:23,115 --> 00:30:25,275
you know, these behaviors have impacted do you

893
00:30:25,275 --> 00:30:27,994
even know how these behaviors impacted me? So

894
00:30:27,994 --> 00:30:29,835
first of all, I I'm a big believer

895
00:30:29,835 --> 00:30:31,134
in choosing your words

896
00:30:31,595 --> 00:30:33,674
of how you, you know, how you wanna

897
00:30:33,674 --> 00:30:34,654
talk to your partner.

898
00:30:35,194 --> 00:30:37,755
I'm not saying in a manipulative way, but,

899
00:30:38,299 --> 00:30:41,019
you know, just being very sensitive to what

900
00:30:41,019 --> 00:30:42,640
what your partner is experiencing

901
00:30:43,579 --> 00:30:45,099
is is one of those. And,

902
00:30:45,819 --> 00:30:47,259
you know, I guess the reason that, you

903
00:30:47,259 --> 00:30:49,179
know, we talk about doctor Manuel is he

904
00:30:49,179 --> 00:30:51,525
does two parts, man. It's about, you know,

905
00:30:51,525 --> 00:30:53,765
take care of the sexual behavior, change that

906
00:30:53,765 --> 00:30:55,765
up, whatever it needs to happen because it's

907
00:30:55,765 --> 00:30:58,484
caused some, you know, tremendous amount of damage

908
00:30:58,484 --> 00:31:00,244
in the relationship. And then the other side

909
00:31:00,244 --> 00:31:03,285
is, you know, the entitlement piece. Like, are

910
00:31:03,285 --> 00:31:05,970
you even seeing how you're affecting someone else?

911
00:31:06,450 --> 00:31:07,669
And if you're entitled,

912
00:31:08,130 --> 00:31:09,970
that word is, like, a big word, but,

913
00:31:09,970 --> 00:31:11,890
basically, it's like, I'm thinking about me, and

914
00:31:11,890 --> 00:31:14,529
guess what? If you're just meeting your own

915
00:31:14,529 --> 00:31:16,609
sexual needs, guess what? You are just thinking

916
00:31:16,609 --> 00:31:17,909
about yourself. And,

917
00:31:18,704 --> 00:31:20,545
he likes to point out that you're, like,

918
00:31:20,545 --> 00:31:22,884
affecting three areas. You're expecting you're

919
00:31:23,424 --> 00:31:23,904
you are,

920
00:31:24,625 --> 00:31:25,744
impacting your partner,

921
00:31:26,144 --> 00:31:27,365
emotionally, psychologically,

922
00:31:27,664 --> 00:31:28,325
and relationally.

923
00:31:28,704 --> 00:31:31,125
Right? So those are all damaged.

924
00:31:31,470 --> 00:31:33,069
So those are things that you have to

925
00:31:33,069 --> 00:31:34,669
be aware of. Is is she crying? Is

926
00:31:34,669 --> 00:31:36,750
she crying all the time? Is she moody?

927
00:31:36,750 --> 00:31:38,750
Is she angry all the time? That's part

928
00:31:38,750 --> 00:31:40,349
of her process and it's part of her

929
00:31:40,349 --> 00:31:42,509
healing. Now, should she be like that for

930
00:31:42,509 --> 00:31:45,255
two years? Probably not. She probably needs to

931
00:31:45,255 --> 00:31:47,654
get a new therapist. I don't know. But,

932
00:31:47,894 --> 00:31:49,575
you know, she needs to figure out what

933
00:31:49,575 --> 00:31:51,894
her voice I've heard somebody say, find your

934
00:31:51,894 --> 00:31:54,295
voice. Partners need to find their voice to

935
00:31:54,295 --> 00:31:56,055
be able to say, I I should have

936
00:31:56,055 --> 00:31:58,855
questioned this. I knew something wasn't right. Mhmm.

937
00:31:59,095 --> 00:31:59,595
So,

938
00:32:00,029 --> 00:32:02,349
you know, also knowing that, you know, if

939
00:32:02,349 --> 00:32:04,430
you're the person that's trying to change your

940
00:32:04,430 --> 00:32:06,130
behavior, looking and saying,

941
00:32:06,430 --> 00:32:08,990
okay. I've created this hot mess, and now

942
00:32:08,990 --> 00:32:11,070
I need to go through and be aware.

943
00:32:11,070 --> 00:32:13,390
And so you're working not only on your,

944
00:32:13,710 --> 00:32:15,490
behavior, but you're also working

945
00:32:15,875 --> 00:32:16,195
on,

946
00:32:16,674 --> 00:32:18,835
your partner and and how to help your

947
00:32:18,835 --> 00:32:20,994
partner in the empathy piece, how to help

948
00:32:20,994 --> 00:32:21,975
your partner through.

949
00:32:22,755 --> 00:32:25,095
You know, and I I love the intimacy

950
00:32:25,235 --> 00:32:27,394
triangle. I talk to people about truth and

951
00:32:27,394 --> 00:32:29,570
honesty. I have it on my board over

952
00:32:29,570 --> 00:32:32,549
here. Truth and honesty, empathy, safety, trust, vulnerability,

953
00:32:32,690 --> 00:32:34,849
connection. You get all those things through and

954
00:32:34,849 --> 00:32:36,769
you get intimacy at the top. Oh my

955
00:32:36,769 --> 00:32:39,090
gosh. I can't tell you how many couples

956
00:32:39,090 --> 00:32:41,170
say that was the bomb, and I've been

957
00:32:41,170 --> 00:32:43,250
cheating all these years. Yeah. I I'm the

958
00:32:43,250 --> 00:32:44,414
one that hurt my

959
00:32:44,894 --> 00:32:46,815
the one that lost out because I chose

960
00:32:46,815 --> 00:32:49,295
to do something that, you know, was damaging

961
00:32:49,295 --> 00:32:50,195
to my relationship.

962
00:32:50,575 --> 00:32:52,575
So Yeah. I think oh my gosh. I

963
00:32:52,575 --> 00:32:54,015
I I pull up that pyramid all the

964
00:32:54,015 --> 00:32:56,095
time. It's my because it's a

965
00:32:56,750 --> 00:32:58,269
I think that that was something that really

966
00:32:58,269 --> 00:33:01,070
connected with me was I want intimacy. And

967
00:33:01,070 --> 00:33:02,590
I looked at that pyramid, and I was

968
00:33:02,590 --> 00:33:03,670
like, I

969
00:33:04,109 --> 00:33:05,230
oh my gosh. And this is gonna be

970
00:33:05,230 --> 00:33:06,670
hard to say. I'm gonna say it, though.

971
00:33:06,670 --> 00:33:08,910
I still don't think I've experienced intimate connections.

972
00:33:08,910 --> 00:33:11,250
I just I'm so damaged in a trust.

973
00:33:11,505 --> 00:33:13,105
I trust no one to meet my needs

974
00:33:13,105 --> 00:33:15,105
but me. And I I and I'm deep

975
00:33:15,105 --> 00:33:16,945
into recovery and I'm trying and I have

976
00:33:16,945 --> 00:33:18,964
therapists, I'm trying but I mean, I

977
00:33:19,265 --> 00:33:21,904
because of my life growing up, I my

978
00:33:21,904 --> 00:33:23,825
parents could not be trusted to meet my

979
00:33:23,825 --> 00:33:25,890
needs. I did not trust them. And then

980
00:33:25,890 --> 00:33:27,490
our bigger circle, which was kind of more

981
00:33:27,490 --> 00:33:29,830
of a church based circle and boy scouts,

982
00:33:29,890 --> 00:33:31,730
they all didn't care. It was all outcome

983
00:33:31,730 --> 00:33:34,049
measures to them too. And so my whole

984
00:33:34,049 --> 00:33:36,369
life really, and then and same in school,

985
00:33:36,369 --> 00:33:38,470
it was I mean, it was just all

986
00:33:38,914 --> 00:33:39,315
it just

987
00:33:39,954 --> 00:33:41,654
everyone cared about me

988
00:33:42,274 --> 00:33:44,515
doing things and not me and what I

989
00:33:44,515 --> 00:33:46,034
wanted. And no one asked me how I

990
00:33:46,034 --> 00:33:48,115
felt and, what I was gonna do with

991
00:33:48,115 --> 00:33:49,634
it. Like, no one asked any of those

992
00:33:49,634 --> 00:33:51,954
questions. They didn't take an interest in me.

993
00:33:51,954 --> 00:33:53,474
They only were interested in me if I

994
00:33:53,474 --> 00:33:54,390
was doing something

995
00:33:55,349 --> 00:33:57,029
that they wanted me to do. Was it

996
00:33:57,029 --> 00:33:59,190
an award, you know, an Eagle Scout award?

997
00:33:59,190 --> 00:34:00,950
My dad wanted me to, you know he

998
00:34:00,950 --> 00:34:03,029
was interested if I was interested in getting

999
00:34:03,029 --> 00:34:04,630
that. But then when I was interested in

1000
00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:06,009
what I was interested in,

1001
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:08,070
you know, there's a lot less there. And

1002
00:34:08,070 --> 00:34:09,894
so, you know, I grew up with that,

1003
00:34:09,894 --> 00:34:10,714
but that's

1004
00:34:11,255 --> 00:34:13,014
that and so that's the piece that really,

1005
00:34:13,014 --> 00:34:15,174
you know, took kind of changed my relationship

1006
00:34:15,174 --> 00:34:18,135
with recovery was I wanna feel intimacy one

1007
00:34:18,135 --> 00:34:19,194
day, and I knew,

1008
00:34:19,655 --> 00:34:21,255
can I do that if I trust no

1009
00:34:21,255 --> 00:34:22,714
one but myself? And the answer

1010
00:34:23,349 --> 00:34:25,589
is the science would say no. And so,

1011
00:34:25,589 --> 00:34:26,809
you know, that kind of

1012
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:28,250
I entered this,

1013
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:30,789
you know, my wife got on board first

1014
00:34:30,789 --> 00:34:32,389
and she was like, oh, honey, we're miss

1015
00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:34,869
like, there's so much more to life that

1016
00:34:34,869 --> 00:34:35,849
we're not getting.

1017
00:34:36,195 --> 00:34:37,954
And I took a little bit longer to

1018
00:34:37,954 --> 00:34:39,715
come around, but sure enough, I came around

1019
00:34:39,715 --> 00:34:41,235
too, and I was like, you know, yeah,

1020
00:34:41,235 --> 00:34:43,394
that's a good point. Like, you know, what

1021
00:34:43,394 --> 00:34:45,635
are we missing out on, you know, by

1022
00:34:45,635 --> 00:34:47,555
being, you know, by by me being this

1023
00:34:47,555 --> 00:34:49,795
way and therefore us being this way because

1024
00:34:49,795 --> 00:34:51,030
relationships take too.

1025
00:34:51,590 --> 00:34:52,869
The thing that I heard you say there

1026
00:34:52,869 --> 00:34:54,469
too that I wanna speak to, which I

1027
00:34:54,469 --> 00:34:55,590
thought was so great was,

1028
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:57,429
the

1029
00:34:57,989 --> 00:34:59,670
I talk about this towards the end of

1030
00:34:59,670 --> 00:35:01,909
my book, and that's the concept of reality

1031
00:35:01,909 --> 00:35:03,989
creation. You know, I think in the therapy

1032
00:35:03,989 --> 00:35:04,890
world, we

1033
00:35:05,804 --> 00:35:08,125
we know this because this is really what

1034
00:35:08,125 --> 00:35:11,025
therapy is. It's what's that person's reality,

1035
00:35:11,405 --> 00:35:13,644
and is it harming them, and is it

1036
00:35:13,644 --> 00:35:16,125
is it is it disruptive to them fulfilling

1037
00:35:16,125 --> 00:35:17,964
their full potential for lack of a better

1038
00:35:17,964 --> 00:35:19,885
word. And that's really just what therapy is.

1039
00:35:19,885 --> 00:35:21,184
It's looking at this

1040
00:35:21,530 --> 00:35:24,349
of, hey. Is there is there reality conducive

1041
00:35:24,570 --> 00:35:25,849
to the person that they wanna be in

1042
00:35:25,849 --> 00:35:27,630
the life they wanna have? And

1043
00:35:28,329 --> 00:35:30,329
I think that that's how so kinda back

1044
00:35:30,329 --> 00:35:32,489
to the initial question, how do guys enter

1045
00:35:32,489 --> 00:35:32,989
this,

1046
00:35:33,369 --> 00:35:37,034
and women enter this this phase of post

1047
00:35:37,034 --> 00:35:37,534
discovery?

1048
00:35:37,914 --> 00:35:39,355
How do you guys enter it to set

1049
00:35:39,355 --> 00:35:40,414
yourself up for success?

1050
00:35:40,715 --> 00:35:43,215
That would be my top pick would be

1051
00:35:43,914 --> 00:35:45,295
acknowledge that everyone

1052
00:35:45,594 --> 00:35:48,155
creates their reality and acknowledge that because of

1053
00:35:48,155 --> 00:35:49,775
what your wife just found out,

1054
00:35:50,159 --> 00:35:52,480
imagine what her reality is. Right? And then

1055
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,760
and then look at what yours is. And

1056
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,780
how about you and your wife now again,

1057
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,280
I okay. Footnote for everybody listening, in those

1058
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:00,339
first six months,

1059
00:36:00,639 --> 00:36:02,319
this is not gonna be easy. This is

1060
00:36:02,319 --> 00:36:04,045
gonna be a disaster. She's gonna be calling

1061
00:36:04,045 --> 00:36:06,204
you names. She's gonna be breaking stuff, throwing

1062
00:36:06,204 --> 00:36:08,525
things, acting like a crazy person. She'll be

1063
00:36:08,525 --> 00:36:10,204
loving on you one second and then calling

1064
00:36:10,204 --> 00:36:11,965
you the worst names ever about ten minutes

1065
00:36:11,965 --> 00:36:12,704
later. So,

1066
00:36:13,244 --> 00:36:14,844
I know that. I lived it. I walked

1067
00:36:14,844 --> 00:36:16,445
it. I see it all the time. That's

1068
00:36:16,445 --> 00:36:18,525
normal. That's not abnormal. That happens to a

1069
00:36:18,525 --> 00:36:19,110
lot of people.

1070
00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:20,970
However, I'm still

1071
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:24,309
through those chaotic times. I still think what

1072
00:36:24,309 --> 00:36:25,450
I'm about to say applies.

1073
00:36:26,150 --> 00:36:27,910
To me, if the couples really wanna make

1074
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:29,829
it through this, you guys should talk about

1075
00:36:29,829 --> 00:36:30,650
your realities

1076
00:36:32,175 --> 00:36:35,695
and not anything else. Not name calling, not

1077
00:36:35,855 --> 00:36:37,155
but talk about the reality.

1078
00:36:37,855 --> 00:36:39,695
Both of you. You she can say, hey,

1079
00:36:39,695 --> 00:36:43,135
honey. I my world right now is I'm

1080
00:36:43,135 --> 00:36:45,474
too old. I'm ugly. I'm bad in bed.

1081
00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:49,260
Guys are gonna pick other women over me.

1082
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,679
Guys are not honest, so I'm basically gonna

1083
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:53,719
have to if I don't be with you,

1084
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,079
I'm gonna have to be single for the

1085
00:36:55,079 --> 00:36:56,840
rest of my life because guys are gonna,

1086
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:57,659
you know,

1087
00:36:58,324 --> 00:37:00,244
when's my husband gonna do it again? How

1088
00:37:00,244 --> 00:37:01,764
long is he gonna be stay sober until

1089
00:37:01,764 --> 00:37:04,005
this occurs? Is he gonna be sober for

1090
00:37:04,005 --> 00:37:05,364
ten years and then just get really bored

1091
00:37:05,364 --> 00:37:06,724
with me and then leave me altogether? I

1092
00:37:06,724 --> 00:37:09,204
mean, you know, some variety of some sort

1093
00:37:09,204 --> 00:37:11,280
of reality like that. And then she should

1094
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:12,880
say, and, you know, living in that world

1095
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,099
makes me feel this way.

1096
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:15,780
And then you would go,

1097
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,160
oh my gosh. It's so you know, can

1098
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:19,760
I would you mind if I told you

1099
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,500
about my reality back then? Yeah. My reality

1100
00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:25,324
back then was I have these sexual urges,

1101
00:37:25,385 --> 00:37:27,625
and I can't tell anyone. And there's no

1102
00:37:27,625 --> 00:37:29,545
treatment for it. I can't do anything to

1103
00:37:29,545 --> 00:37:31,784
stop it. I've actually tried to stop before,

1104
00:37:31,784 --> 00:37:32,684
and I couldn't.

1105
00:37:33,065 --> 00:37:34,664
Right? So I I had to hide it,

1106
00:37:34,664 --> 00:37:36,184
and that was my reality. Right? It had

1107
00:37:36,184 --> 00:37:38,719
nothing to do with you being ugly, wrinkly,

1108
00:37:38,860 --> 00:37:41,659
bad in bed, too old, too boring, like,

1109
00:37:41,659 --> 00:37:42,860
it had nothing to do. That wasn't even

1110
00:37:42,860 --> 00:37:44,539
on my mind. I was simply just hiding

1111
00:37:44,539 --> 00:37:47,500
behaviors that I didn't know I could stop.

1112
00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:49,099
I because a lot of people are unfamiliar

1113
00:37:49,099 --> 00:37:51,114
with the sex addiction field until they're familiar

1114
00:37:51,114 --> 00:37:52,954
with the sex addiction field. And by that

1115
00:37:52,954 --> 00:37:54,954
time, they They study it, man. They study

1116
00:37:54,954 --> 00:37:57,275
it. Like, there's there's women that go to

1117
00:37:57,275 --> 00:38:00,094
every podcast, every webinar, read every book,

1118
00:38:00,714 --> 00:38:02,875
attend any groups, anything that's out there that's

1119
00:38:02,875 --> 00:38:04,574
free, and the men are just like,

1120
00:38:05,529 --> 00:38:07,769
I don't know. Yeah. I'm just trying to

1121
00:38:07,769 --> 00:38:09,130
go to a meeting, and I'm trying to

1122
00:38:09,130 --> 00:38:11,210
understand my first step in my you know,

1123
00:38:11,210 --> 00:38:13,210
of the 12 steps. And it's kind of

1124
00:38:13,210 --> 00:38:16,250
like, hey. Just just recognize that's her new

1125
00:38:16,250 --> 00:38:18,924
form of empowerment. Right? That she can be

1126
00:38:18,924 --> 00:38:21,184
in charge of information and she can be

1127
00:38:21,484 --> 00:38:25,164
she she shut everything down when when she

1128
00:38:25,164 --> 00:38:27,565
accepted your reality Yes. Of this is the

1129
00:38:27,565 --> 00:38:29,324
way it needs to you know, this is

1130
00:38:29,324 --> 00:38:31,264
what's going on. You just don't know it.

1131
00:38:31,885 --> 00:38:34,150
So now it's kinda like, no. I know

1132
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:34,650
everything.

1133
00:38:35,349 --> 00:38:37,750
I'm gonna be watching you. So Exactly. And,

1134
00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:39,829
Cheryl, I'm so grateful for you bringing that

1135
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:42,389
up because that is what they're doing. They're

1136
00:38:43,349 --> 00:38:45,989
you're now a liar and completely unreliable, so

1137
00:38:45,989 --> 00:38:47,590
they now have to take care of the

1138
00:38:47,590 --> 00:38:50,724
family and themselves. They have to they are

1139
00:38:50,804 --> 00:38:52,025
you're you're completely

1140
00:38:52,485 --> 00:38:54,965
you're a dangerous person. They are they're gonna

1141
00:38:54,965 --> 00:38:57,204
figure everything out to keep them. And and

1142
00:38:57,204 --> 00:38:59,465
again, that's it's not about you.

1143
00:39:00,005 --> 00:39:01,364
I know it looks that way and it

1144
00:39:01,364 --> 00:39:03,570
feels that way, but it's truly about safety.

1145
00:39:03,570 --> 00:39:05,650
I mean, imagine if you're I I I

1146
00:39:05,650 --> 00:39:07,250
say this to guys. I say this exact

1147
00:39:07,250 --> 00:39:09,970
example. I say, imagine if your wife was

1148
00:39:09,970 --> 00:39:10,710
coming home,

1149
00:39:11,650 --> 00:39:14,289
every every, like, one one or two Thursdays

1150
00:39:14,289 --> 00:39:16,514
a month, and she was telling you that

1151
00:39:16,514 --> 00:39:18,275
she was staying late at work or that

1152
00:39:18,275 --> 00:39:19,714
you and you found out that she was

1153
00:39:19,714 --> 00:39:22,295
actually just watching movies with a guy.

1154
00:39:22,835 --> 00:39:25,074
Mhmm. And she hid it from you. I

1155
00:39:25,074 --> 00:39:26,775
know those guys who would lose

1156
00:39:27,155 --> 00:39:27,655
their

1157
00:39:28,034 --> 00:39:28,534
minds

1158
00:39:28,980 --> 00:39:30,280
finding out about that.

1159
00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:32,500
And then we look at what we did

1160
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:34,260
and we I think we took quite a

1161
00:39:34,260 --> 00:39:35,400
few steps further.

1162
00:39:35,699 --> 00:39:37,940
But that's my point is it's the it's

1163
00:39:37,940 --> 00:39:39,699
the incongruence. But, you know, and when I

1164
00:39:39,699 --> 00:39:41,025
mean reality, like,

1165
00:39:41,824 --> 00:39:43,184
you you can tell her too about your

1166
00:39:43,184 --> 00:39:45,105
modern reality. You can say, hey, like, can

1167
00:39:45,105 --> 00:39:46,784
I tell you about my reality right now?

1168
00:39:47,025 --> 00:39:48,944
When I hear all those things, I I

1169
00:39:48,944 --> 00:39:52,005
feel horrible. I I I I'm speechless.

1170
00:39:52,464 --> 00:39:54,864
I'm ashamed of myself that I made my

1171
00:39:54,864 --> 00:39:56,964
wife and soulmate feel that way.

1172
00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:00,440
I and frankly, I I I feel really

1173
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,440
embarrassed and stupid because I I there's nothing

1174
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,119
I can say. I I can't justify or

1175
00:40:04,119 --> 00:40:06,039
rationalize what I did and I can't take

1176
00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:07,880
it back and I just feel really, you

1177
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,219
know, in this world, I feel really dumb.

1178
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:11,099
Right? So

1179
00:40:11,559 --> 00:40:13,474
again, if and I know this is easier

1180
00:40:13,474 --> 00:40:15,074
said than done, but if if you guys

1181
00:40:15,074 --> 00:40:17,175
really wanna get through this well

1182
00:40:18,114 --> 00:40:19,574
to the best of your abilities,

1183
00:40:19,875 --> 00:40:21,815
express your re perceived

1184
00:40:22,434 --> 00:40:24,755
realities and what that makes you feel. And

1185
00:40:24,755 --> 00:40:26,114
if you guys can do that, you know,

1186
00:40:26,114 --> 00:40:28,160
that's kind of the core of, like, emotionally

1187
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,239
focused therapy. Right? Is, like, let's just get

1188
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,000
down to the end of it. Like, what

1189
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:33,360
world are you living in and how does

1190
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:34,720
it feel to live in that world? And

1191
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:36,640
let's have a discussion about that. Because the

1192
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:37,460
truth is,

1193
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,160
when he hears that you are making you

1194
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,960
you're you feel ugly and not enough around

1195
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:43,335
him,

1196
00:40:43,815 --> 00:40:45,655
he can imagine what that would feel like.

1197
00:40:45,655 --> 00:40:47,355
Right? But if you call him a monster

1198
00:40:47,574 --> 00:40:49,034
without any of the other context

1199
00:40:49,335 --> 00:40:51,094
Mhmm. You know, that doesn't really but I'm

1200
00:40:51,094 --> 00:40:52,695
telling you, if you really wanna if you

1201
00:40:52,695 --> 00:40:54,454
really wanna hurt your husband, stop calling him

1202
00:40:54,454 --> 00:40:56,775
names and start telling him about the world

1203
00:40:56,775 --> 00:40:58,695
you live in because it'll it'll just cut

1204
00:40:58,695 --> 00:41:00,089
so deep. It really will.

1205
00:41:00,389 --> 00:41:01,750
Right? I mean, that's that's at least for

1206
00:41:01,750 --> 00:41:02,969
me, like, when she explains

1207
00:41:03,269 --> 00:41:06,150
the story she makes up about herself because

1208
00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:07,289
of what I did,

1209
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:10,230
that's way worse than any name she could

1210
00:41:10,230 --> 00:41:12,069
have ever called me. So, yeah, that's that's

1211
00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:13,855
kinda my advice for a couple. Try to

1212
00:41:13,855 --> 00:41:15,855
focus on the reality that you two are

1213
00:41:15,855 --> 00:41:17,934
creating. Now I'm just gonna speak to why

1214
00:41:17,934 --> 00:41:19,135
this is hard for a lot of people.

1215
00:41:19,135 --> 00:41:20,335
A lot of people don't think they create

1216
00:41:20,335 --> 00:41:22,414
realities. A lot of people people think that

1217
00:41:22,414 --> 00:41:23,635
there is one reality

1218
00:41:23,934 --> 00:41:25,715
and that they live in the one reality

1219
00:41:25,855 --> 00:41:27,575
and then the guy doesn't. So, you know,

1220
00:41:27,575 --> 00:41:29,010
a lot of times that's the ladies are

1221
00:41:29,010 --> 00:41:30,789
like, hey. I live in the real world.

1222
00:41:31,090 --> 00:41:33,730
You don't. And they pack that attitude, and

1223
00:41:33,730 --> 00:41:36,130
it's a very, it's really hard to stay

1224
00:41:36,130 --> 00:41:38,530
together when I feel like you want me

1225
00:41:38,530 --> 00:41:40,070
to believe your reality

1226
00:41:40,530 --> 00:41:43,025
and that mine's wrong. That's, it's, it's very

1227
00:41:43,025 --> 00:41:45,105
hard to keep the coupleship together when that's

1228
00:41:45,105 --> 00:41:47,765
the dynamic. Mhmm. Yeah. Two different worlds.

1229
00:41:48,465 --> 00:41:50,224
And the thing is is you got married

1230
00:41:50,224 --> 00:41:52,305
and you thought, he's accepting my world. Oh,

1231
00:41:52,305 --> 00:41:54,704
she's accepting my world. And it's like, no.

1232
00:41:54,704 --> 00:41:56,625
No. No. No. You'll make a new you

1233
00:41:56,625 --> 00:41:58,489
know, it's this part right here. Like, you

1234
00:41:58,489 --> 00:42:00,409
know, are you seeing you know, are are

1235
00:42:00,409 --> 00:42:02,969
y'all having the same values, the same beliefs?

1236
00:42:02,969 --> 00:42:04,670
And, you know, when this part

1237
00:42:04,969 --> 00:42:07,469
finds out, no, that's not true. This part's

1238
00:42:07,690 --> 00:42:08,349
like, woah.

1239
00:42:08,650 --> 00:42:10,569
You know, I guess I guess I need

1240
00:42:10,569 --> 00:42:11,549
to make some changes.

1241
00:42:12,250 --> 00:42:12,750
But,

1242
00:42:13,155 --> 00:42:13,655
yeah,

1243
00:42:13,954 --> 00:42:16,275
yeah, those the I I just kept thinking

1244
00:42:16,275 --> 00:42:18,914
almost sounds like the matrix. Right? It is.

1245
00:42:18,914 --> 00:42:20,835
Right? It is. That's really truly what it

1246
00:42:20,835 --> 00:42:22,775
is. Right? One one person,

1247
00:42:23,315 --> 00:42:24,675
you know, the, you know, the the guy

1248
00:42:24,675 --> 00:42:26,275
is in the matrix, and he's found a

1249
00:42:26,275 --> 00:42:27,554
way to make it work for him. And,

1250
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:30,949
and then she's in that ice cold ship

1251
00:42:30,949 --> 00:42:31,769
eating porridge.

1252
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:32,630
And,

1253
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:35,110
you know, it's this disagreement of, well, I

1254
00:42:35,110 --> 00:42:37,030
wanna live here. Well, I wanna live here.

1255
00:42:37,030 --> 00:42:38,230
And Mhmm. You know, on the on the

1256
00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:39,989
global scale, it's kind of the world we

1257
00:42:39,989 --> 00:42:42,150
live in. Right? Democrats think they're right. Republicans

1258
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:44,914
think they're right. This religion thinks their religion's

1259
00:42:44,914 --> 00:42:46,675
right. The other religion think they're you know,

1260
00:42:46,675 --> 00:42:47,494
it's it's

1261
00:42:48,034 --> 00:42:49,015
all problems

1262
00:42:49,474 --> 00:42:52,295
come from when people are trying to force

1263
00:42:52,355 --> 00:42:53,894
their reality on other people

1264
00:42:54,195 --> 00:42:56,594
rather than just seeing, hey. What's your reality

1265
00:42:56,594 --> 00:42:58,779
and are you happy with that? Here's my

1266
00:42:58,779 --> 00:43:00,219
reality and I'll tell you what I'm happy

1267
00:43:00,219 --> 00:43:01,500
with. I'll tell you what I'm trying to

1268
00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:03,179
change. And then you and your husband can

1269
00:43:03,179 --> 00:43:03,679
decide,

1270
00:43:04,059 --> 00:43:05,739
hey, and here and here's what I've seen,

1271
00:43:05,739 --> 00:43:07,659
Cheryl. This is why I'm emphasizing this so

1272
00:43:07,659 --> 00:43:10,299
much is what I have seen so often

1273
00:43:10,299 --> 00:43:12,795
is that the two realities are actually the

1274
00:43:12,795 --> 00:43:15,434
same. They don't wanna hurt each other. The

1275
00:43:15,434 --> 00:43:17,994
guy really doesn't need to go and have

1276
00:43:17,994 --> 00:43:19,835
all these relationships on the side. Like, the

1277
00:43:19,835 --> 00:43:21,275
truth is, at least for the guys that

1278
00:43:21,275 --> 00:43:22,094
are my groups,

1279
00:43:22,554 --> 00:43:24,954
they really want to have a strong sound

1280
00:43:24,954 --> 00:43:26,894
on the honest family unit

1281
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,800
full of full of transparency and trust and

1282
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,000
and unity and joy and and teamwork. And

1283
00:43:33,079 --> 00:43:35,880
Mhmm. I really think that that's that's like

1284
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,260
most people. I think that's,

1285
00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:39,480
I'm gonna I'll say 99% because I'm sure

1286
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,000
there's some weirdos out there, but I think

1287
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,425
most people are realities for the most part.

1288
00:43:43,425 --> 00:43:44,865
We just wanna be happy. We don't wanna

1289
00:43:44,865 --> 00:43:46,865
have as little conflict and stress as possible.

1290
00:43:46,865 --> 00:43:48,625
And it's really the life we're trying to

1291
00:43:48,625 --> 00:43:49,365
go after.

1292
00:43:50,224 --> 00:43:52,144
But you can see how how you could

1293
00:43:52,144 --> 00:43:54,644
create a reality that's peaceful for you

1294
00:43:55,099 --> 00:43:57,659
but might disrupt someone else's. And that's really

1295
00:43:57,659 --> 00:43:59,840
why I encourage both couples to talk about,

1296
00:43:59,980 --> 00:44:02,140
hey, with that reality, that makes me feel

1297
00:44:02,140 --> 00:44:03,980
this. Yeah. And then you guys can decide,

1298
00:44:03,980 --> 00:44:05,340
well, what are we gonna do about that?

1299
00:44:05,340 --> 00:44:07,099
Right? Because if she doesn't wanna keep feeling

1300
00:44:07,099 --> 00:44:09,039
that and you don't wanna change your reality,

1301
00:44:09,664 --> 00:44:11,505
now I don't what's that mean for the

1302
00:44:11,505 --> 00:44:12,005
relationship?

1303
00:44:12,545 --> 00:44:14,465
But I do I think I think most

1304
00:44:14,465 --> 00:44:16,804
of the time, the guys do not need

1305
00:44:17,025 --> 00:44:19,025
all of this stuff in their life. And

1306
00:44:19,025 --> 00:44:19,525
so

1307
00:44:20,625 --> 00:44:22,965
be on the same team, make these compulsive

1308
00:44:23,025 --> 00:44:25,125
behaviors the enemy, not your spouse.

1309
00:44:26,109 --> 00:44:28,030
It's it's I really hate that we had

1310
00:44:28,030 --> 00:44:30,269
a reality that allowed this to happen. I'm

1311
00:44:30,269 --> 00:44:32,109
I'm so angered by that. And your husband's

1312
00:44:32,109 --> 00:44:34,030
probably angry about it too. Right? That's what

1313
00:44:34,030 --> 00:44:34,849
I would say.

1314
00:44:35,230 --> 00:44:37,469
I I just hear so many men say,

1315
00:44:37,469 --> 00:44:39,494
my wife is such a good mom.

1316
00:44:39,795 --> 00:44:41,655
She's a great wife to me.

1317
00:44:41,954 --> 00:44:44,594
I don't understand how I, you know, wasn't

1318
00:44:44,594 --> 00:44:46,755
thinking that this was gonna cause the damage

1319
00:44:46,755 --> 00:44:47,574
that it did.

1320
00:44:48,275 --> 00:44:51,155
And, you know, so I also kinda think

1321
00:44:51,155 --> 00:44:51,815
that sometimes

1322
00:44:52,114 --> 00:44:54,269
guys will look at that and say, I

1323
00:44:54,269 --> 00:44:56,449
should be in so much shame and guilt

1324
00:44:56,590 --> 00:44:58,050
that they start, like, overcompensating.

1325
00:44:58,750 --> 00:45:00,750
I'm going to six meetings a week, and

1326
00:45:00,750 --> 00:45:01,890
I'm going to therapy

1327
00:45:02,269 --> 00:45:03,949
and twice a week, and I'm gonna do

1328
00:45:03,949 --> 00:45:05,630
this, and I'm gonna do that. And it's

1329
00:45:05,630 --> 00:45:06,449
kind of like,

1330
00:45:07,304 --> 00:45:09,704
did you write fun down anywhere in there?

1331
00:45:09,704 --> 00:45:10,204
Because

1332
00:45:10,664 --> 00:45:11,164
couples

1333
00:45:11,545 --> 00:45:13,224
couples aren't gonna make it if they don't

1334
00:45:13,224 --> 00:45:15,304
find any way to, you know, meet in

1335
00:45:15,304 --> 00:45:17,385
the middle and and find ways to say

1336
00:45:17,385 --> 00:45:19,460
we still need to be together. And Right.

1337
00:45:19,460 --> 00:45:22,269
Right. That's just that hurts my heart sometimes

1338
00:45:22,329 --> 00:45:24,090
when I hear that. And yet, sometimes I

1339
00:45:24,090 --> 00:45:26,809
hear stories or like, I had, one couple

1340
00:45:26,809 --> 00:45:28,809
that said, oh, we went somewhere in public.

1341
00:45:28,809 --> 00:45:30,809
And my husband and I were holding hands,

1342
00:45:30,809 --> 00:45:33,230
and my daughter was like, what's that about?

1343
00:45:33,369 --> 00:45:35,625
And, you know, it's kinda like it was

1344
00:45:35,625 --> 00:45:37,864
foreign. And then, you know, then they said

1345
00:45:37,864 --> 00:45:39,625
we were somewhere in a big crowd, and

1346
00:45:39,625 --> 00:45:41,965
we were watching some game, and we just

1347
00:45:42,105 --> 00:45:44,025
hugged each other and kissed each other. You

1348
00:45:44,025 --> 00:45:45,704
know? And over the top of my daughter,

1349
00:45:45,704 --> 00:45:47,889
my daughter's going, what's going on here? She's

1350
00:45:47,889 --> 00:45:49,570
in a different matrix. Right? She's in a

1351
00:45:49,570 --> 00:45:51,570
different, like, what in the world is going

1352
00:45:51,570 --> 00:45:53,429
on with my parents? But, you know,

1353
00:45:53,889 --> 00:45:56,230
her parents are super happy now. And,

1354
00:45:56,610 --> 00:45:58,550
I'm sure, like, watching your parents

1355
00:45:59,090 --> 00:46:01,494
not struggle to even have a conversation because

1356
00:46:01,494 --> 00:46:03,255
that's what happened. You had two you had

1357
00:46:03,255 --> 00:46:05,735
two strangers running the household. Right. They weren't

1358
00:46:05,735 --> 00:46:07,574
even running, you know, the same, you know,

1359
00:46:07,574 --> 00:46:09,175
on the same team. And then when you

1360
00:46:09,175 --> 00:46:10,795
have a couple come back together,

1361
00:46:11,655 --> 00:46:13,980
it's really interesting to see how it, like,

1362
00:46:14,059 --> 00:46:16,300
trickles down to the children. So Yeah. It

1363
00:46:16,300 --> 00:46:18,300
is. You know, and that's that's the important

1364
00:46:18,300 --> 00:46:20,219
part. Everybody's entitled to I wouldn't even say

1365
00:46:20,219 --> 00:46:22,380
entitled. Everyone has the right and is here

1366
00:46:22,380 --> 00:46:24,059
to create their own reality. And if it

1367
00:46:24,059 --> 00:46:25,980
doesn't mesh, then don't be married anymore. And

1368
00:46:25,980 --> 00:46:28,364
if it does mesh, which they they often

1369
00:46:28,364 --> 00:46:30,125
do, you know, usually when people fall in

1370
00:46:30,125 --> 00:46:30,625
love,

1371
00:46:31,085 --> 00:46:33,164
you guys share the same reality at the

1372
00:46:33,164 --> 00:46:34,364
core. A lot of times, you know, we've

1373
00:46:34,364 --> 00:46:36,204
just drifted so far away from that it

1374
00:46:36,204 --> 00:46:38,784
feels like you don't. But Yeah. You know,

1375
00:46:38,925 --> 00:46:41,400
that's still in there. You just you're adults

1376
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,400
and start taking things too seriously, and the

1377
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,480
next thing you know, you know, you start

1378
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,559
feeling like it's not a fit anymore. But,

1379
00:46:47,559 --> 00:46:49,079
you know, all the way back in there

1380
00:46:49,079 --> 00:46:51,179
is just two people who love each other.

1381
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,519
Cheryl, how can people find you? Where are

1382
00:46:54,519 --> 00:46:55,260
you licensed?

1383
00:46:56,025 --> 00:46:57,464
What's it like to work with you? What

1384
00:46:57,464 --> 00:46:59,144
do you offer? What website do they go

1385
00:46:59,144 --> 00:47:00,264
to? Can you give us some of that

1386
00:47:00,264 --> 00:47:00,764
information?

1387
00:47:01,144 --> 00:47:01,625
Sure.

1388
00:47:02,105 --> 00:47:05,244
My website is, cherylcamarillo.com,

1389
00:47:05,545 --> 00:47:08,105
and, people can find me on, you know,

1390
00:47:08,105 --> 00:47:11,005
various social medias as at sharing with Cheryl,

1391
00:47:11,859 --> 00:47:13,940
because I kinda feel like that's what people

1392
00:47:13,940 --> 00:47:15,859
are coming in and finding a safe space

1393
00:47:15,859 --> 00:47:17,380
to be able to share whatever is going

1394
00:47:17,380 --> 00:47:19,139
on in their life. And if I can

1395
00:47:19,139 --> 00:47:20,659
help them, I'll I'll do that.

1396
00:47:21,300 --> 00:47:23,619
I'm licensed in the state of Texas as

1397
00:47:23,619 --> 00:47:26,484
a licensed clinical social worker. I just finished

1398
00:47:26,484 --> 00:47:27,224
a certification

1399
00:47:27,605 --> 00:47:28,005
with,

1400
00:47:28,484 --> 00:47:31,304
doctor Manuela. So I'm a deceptive sexual,

1401
00:47:31,844 --> 00:47:32,905
trauma therapist.

1402
00:47:33,525 --> 00:47:33,925
And,

1403
00:47:34,324 --> 00:47:35,625
so I have that specialty.

1404
00:47:35,925 --> 00:47:38,085
I I'm a CSAT, so I'm a certified

1405
00:47:38,085 --> 00:47:39,304
sex addiction therapist.

1406
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:41,059
I'm a CST

1407
00:47:41,519 --> 00:47:44,320
certified sex therapist. So, hey, when you got

1408
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,000
through the, you know, the pieces where it's

1409
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:47,760
like we don't trust each other and you

1410
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:49,519
go to the other side and sex is

1411
00:47:49,519 --> 00:47:51,200
great, you know, I I can help you

1412
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:52,244
with that part too.

1413
00:47:52,965 --> 00:47:55,365
I do therapy, but I also will do

1414
00:47:55,365 --> 00:47:58,025
consultations with people to be able to understand.

1415
00:47:58,405 --> 00:48:00,724
And I'm currently in the process of setting

1416
00:48:00,724 --> 00:48:03,045
up men's groups to learn the basics of

1417
00:48:03,045 --> 00:48:03,704
the honesty,

1418
00:48:04,085 --> 00:48:05,625
you know, stuff that needs to happen.

1419
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,559
And, also, when you ask the question, how

1420
00:48:08,559 --> 00:48:10,420
does this man talk to his wife?

1421
00:48:11,119 --> 00:48:13,199
You know, that's that piece. So I'm,

1422
00:48:13,679 --> 00:48:16,099
I don't have a title, like doctor Minwalla

1423
00:48:16,159 --> 00:48:17,760
does. He has a b, the better man

1424
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,324
thing. But, you know, to me, it's just

1425
00:48:20,324 --> 00:48:22,804
like, the accountability group. I just call it,

1426
00:48:22,804 --> 00:48:23,784
you know, tag.

1427
00:48:24,485 --> 00:48:26,565
You know, tag your it. You know? Tell

1428
00:48:26,565 --> 00:48:29,045
tell whatever's going on with yourself, and let's,

1429
00:48:29,045 --> 00:48:30,724
you know, let's move on.

1430
00:48:31,125 --> 00:48:33,364
You know, the game is always going and,

1431
00:48:33,364 --> 00:48:34,025
you know,

1432
00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:38,070
he does worksheets on the WTF question mark,

1433
00:48:38,070 --> 00:48:40,389
and I love that one too because, you

1434
00:48:40,389 --> 00:48:43,030
know, you fill it out, you talk about

1435
00:48:43,030 --> 00:48:44,949
it, you throw it away. It's like stop

1436
00:48:44,949 --> 00:48:47,590
caring the shame about stuff. Yes. I like

1437
00:48:47,590 --> 00:48:49,994
that. Learn from whatever. So yes. I like

1438
00:48:49,994 --> 00:48:51,994
that. Yeah. It's a and, Cheryl, I do.

1439
00:48:51,994 --> 00:48:53,514
I love your approach. I love how big

1440
00:48:53,514 --> 00:48:55,514
you think. I love how open you think.

1441
00:48:55,514 --> 00:48:57,034
I love how flexible you are. You know,

1442
00:48:57,034 --> 00:48:59,275
you've definitely created a safe container for people.

1443
00:48:59,275 --> 00:49:00,894
I love that. Thanks for your time today.

1444
00:49:01,130 --> 00:49:01,789
Thank you.

1445
00:49:02,250 --> 00:49:03,869
Thanks for listening to this episode.

1446
00:49:04,170 --> 00:49:05,610
If you are a high achiever of the

1447
00:49:05,610 --> 00:49:07,530
sex addiction and you're looking for a recovery

1448
00:49:07,530 --> 00:49:11,130
group full of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1449
00:49:11,130 --> 00:49:13,929
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1450
00:49:13,929 --> 00:49:15,230
using four day retreats,

1451
00:49:15,610 --> 00:49:18,344
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1452
00:49:18,404 --> 00:49:20,565
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1453
00:49:20,565 --> 00:49:22,484
save your marriage, go to our website and

1454
00:49:22,484 --> 00:49:23,464
fill out our application.

1455
00:49:23,764 --> 00:49:26,164
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1456
00:49:26,164 --> 00:49:27,844
along to a friend in recovery who would

1457
00:49:27,844 --> 00:49:29,844
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1458
00:49:29,844 --> 00:49:31,454
get this information out to as many high

1459
00:49:31,454 --> 00:49:33,855
achievers as possible, and I can't do it

1460
00:49:33,855 --> 00:49:34,835
without your help.