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– You slay the dragon by befriending the dragon.

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– When people are able to understand that they

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– are both their mask and the other stuff

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– underneath, and they can use them both in

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– a flexible manner, then you’re hamman on all

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– cylinders.

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– It’s a process that takes place in psychotherapy.

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– It’s a process that takes place when you’re

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– in a really safe place where you can

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– look at all parts of yourself and love

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– them like everything belongs.

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– That doesn’t mean you continue to pursue toxic,

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– compulsive, harmful behavior to others. I’m not adores

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– to that, but I’m saying you’re embracing all

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– parts of yourself and bringing them together into

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– a human form, then you can kind of

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– be your best self.

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– You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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– for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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– This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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– recovery principles

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– specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

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– I’m your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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– Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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– men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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– more information about joining our group or attending

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– our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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– And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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– Don, let’s drive into this thing. First off,

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– welcome back. You are a return guest. For

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– those of you who have not listened to

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– Don’s first podcast, go back. Can’t remember what

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– episode number it is, but go back. Listen

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– to it. It’s a phenomenal episode. And you’re

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– back, and we’re gonna dive right into the

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– topic because we’re already in peak energy from

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– the prerecording conversation.

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– We’re gonna talk about

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– religion, whether it’s serving you or not. And

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– I think this is something that a lot

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– of people don’t a question they don’t ask

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– themselves. And I think it’s because,

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– you know, the way I see it, Don,

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– is because it’s the truth,

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– they don’t really examine it. Because it’s like,

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– oh no no no that’s the truth. And

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– then they are basically modifying everything else to

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– fit into it. But I think the thing

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– that people

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– don’t really think about is, there’s a lot

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– there with words, semantics.

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– I always tell everybody, your definition of respect

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– is a 100%

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– different than my definition of respect. I can

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– assure you of that. Right? When we have

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– conversations, somebody will say, oh, respect is earned.

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– I don’t think that. I think respect is

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– inherently your right as a human being. So

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– we’ll have this all of a sudden a

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– word that we both think, oh, yeah, yeah,

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– respect.

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– And then as we start to talk, it’s

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– like, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah. Your

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– understanding of respect is very very different than

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– mine. And the reason I bring that example

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– up, Don, is I think that assuming that

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– you understand

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– your prescribed religion or your belief system around

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– and again, just so everybody understands, we’re not

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– just talking about churches and and specifics. This

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– could be even your understanding of purpose. Why

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– we’re here on this earth. What successes and

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– what unsuccesses. I think that still kind of

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– falls into the same category. So this conversation

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– is really around

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– institutional

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– ideas of how to live your life. I

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– don’t even know if if religion is necessarily

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– the word that we should confine ourselves to

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– with this conversation. But Don, before we get

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– into it, can you as to what I

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– just said, can you still tell the listeners

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– anything else around why they should listen to

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– this episode and what we’re gonna really get

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– into and what I mean by

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– misunderstanding

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– religion, religious trauma, etcetera? Because I do think

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– when people hear it, it’s like, well, I’m

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– not gonna listen to this episode because I

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– don’t want them to change my religious beliefs.

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– That’s actually not what we’re gonna do. You

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– can keep them just fine. We’re just gonna

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– make sure that they’re actually doing what you

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– were thinking they were doing.

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– Yeah. Thanks. And thanks again for having me

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– on, Roland. As we were talking before, I

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– think you’re a person of substance, and you

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– really explore some deeper questions.

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– One thing I might say in my practice

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– as a psychologist,

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– especially with people who survive, like, religious trauma,

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– I’ll say, faith is a beautiful thing. Blind

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– faith is a dangerous thing. And And I

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– think if we look around, we’ll see that

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– everywhere. You know, I joke around sometimes, and

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– I say, this is why we can’t have

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– nice things. Because there are truths out there,

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– you know, like like serving love and humanity

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– and goodness and truth. And these things are

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– inherent. They have inherent value in and of

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– themselves.

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– But when we grab a hold of it

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– as humans, we screw it all up. Right?

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– Language creates reality. So when I say if

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– somebody says, like, I’m serving Jesus or God,

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– you have to understand that might mean something

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– completely

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– different to you than what it means by

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– somebody who’s been harmed by religion. So there

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– are inherent truths, but then language creates reality.

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– And this is where I think we really

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– get screwed up. Yes. Yes. And for those

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– of you who want an awesome book on

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– this, it is truly in my top three.

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– And I and my books, to make it

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– in the top three, it says a lot

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– because I read some really amazing books. There’s

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– a book by Don Miguel Ruiz, and no

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– one reads this one. They all read The

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– Four Agreements. He writes a book called The

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– Voice of Knowledge.

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– And it is without question his best book.

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– If you guys like The Four Agreements, it

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– is, in my opinion, a 150

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– times better. Can you imagine? And The Four

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– Agreements is a great book. So you can

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– imagine a 150 times better. I mean, a

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– phenomenal book, but it speaks to what we’re

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– talking about here where it teaches you about

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– what the voice of knowledge is.

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– And again, a lot of people think that

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– thinking, we we buy into our own truth

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– because we read it in a religious text

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– and we say, oh, that’s bad.

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– But you have to understand, did the book

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– actually say it was bad? Does the book

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– want you to think it’s bad? And I

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– think what we’re gonna talk about today is

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– by you calling it bad as you define

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– it, I think what a lot of people

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– are blind to is what’s that actually causing

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– in your life, and is it actually facilitating

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– by it being bad, is it actually facilitating

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– what you thought it was facilitating? You know,

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– a lot of people think, oh, because I

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– think this is bad that makes me a

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– good person, that makes me a moral individual.

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– Maybe. Just depends on what the consequences

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– are of calling that thing or that person

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– bad. Because I think when we call them

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– that, if that creates a reality

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– that now makes this world altered, makes me

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– live in a different way. Now we have

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– to start asking ourselves, is that actually serving

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– us? Right? And when you listen to a

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– lot of these like religious teachers and prophets

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– and philosophers, they were trying to help us

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– create a peaceful

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– way of living. A world full of love,

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– forgiveness,

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– a a world that was training in a

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– positive direction. And I think you have to

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– ask yourself, is calling someone bad, myself bad

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– or a behavior bad, is that actually facilitating

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– this world of peace? Or is it facilitating

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– potential arguments, hatred, judgment? And these are some

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– of the things I think a lot of

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– people don’t think. And I think they replace

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– it for moral high ground when we really

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– should be asking a bigger and more important

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– question, which is, is this actually bringing me

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– towards the place that these religious books or

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– spiritual teachings is you know, they’re all trying

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– to guide us towards this zenful place of

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– self love and love of others and this

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– peaceful amazing existence.

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– You have to ask yourself, I think, a

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– bigger question. Is that belief facilitating that? So

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– can you talk on that what I just

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– said and this whole idea? Can you re

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– articulate

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– what we mean by trauma? How this could

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– actually end up derailing your life rather than

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– putting it on the track that you initially

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– set out to achieve?

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– That’s you said a lot there and I’m

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– gonna try to have a few thoughts on

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– on what you’re saying. Number one, I think

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– that the best gift we can give another

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– human is to see them. Right? But we

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– don’t see clearly as people. So what you

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– were saying is, you know, if you approach

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– this world of judgment, kinda labeling something bad,

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– labels and judgments, they change how we think.

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– They change our ability to see. So what

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– we have to try to do is approach

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– others and the world with a mindset of

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– curiosity as opposed to judgment.

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– Right? Because what prevents us from seeing is

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– our own attachments, our own labels, our own

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– conditioning, our own programming.

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– Right?

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– And so we are meaning makers as people.

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– We apply these lenses and stereotypes to the

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– world to try to make sense of it

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– all. Right? And that’s not bad. That’s diachronic

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– thinking, applying our story to everything. It’s not

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– bad. That’s human. Emphasodic

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– thinking

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– is a deeper and more important way of

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– thinking. Right? And it’s actually

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– seeing. So if you approach somebody with love

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– and curiosity

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– as opposed to judgment, right, this takes humility.

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– I mean, setting our ego aside for a

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– minute. It takes humility. But if we’re able

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– to do that, we’re giving somebody a gift,

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– which is our presence.

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– Right? And that’s what all these great spiritual

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– teachers are really trying to say. But again,

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– we take it,

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– we turn it into something that to control

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– and oppress and all those things, and that’s

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– not good. Don Miguel Ruiz is great. I’ve

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– read The Four Agreements. I think I’m gonna

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– read that other book you mentioned too. Yeah.

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– The Voice of Knowledge. And just so the

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– audience understands, when we’re talking about judgments,

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– everyone always thinks that that’s a bad thing.

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– A judgment is just a decision about what

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– something is. Right? Judgments can be good. Right?

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– Oh, that wasn’t a good back flip. That’s

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– a judgment.

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– Right? Oh, that was a bad back flip.

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– That is a negative judgment. So just so

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– everybody understands, when we’re talking about judgments, labels,

247
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– hierarchies, right, hierarchies being good, bad, better, worse,

248
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– these are just judgment calls. And so again,

249
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– we’re not accusing anyone of being judgmental

250
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– or mean, bad. That’s not what this is

251
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– about. It’s just I think what John and

252
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– I are having this whole conversation around is

253
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– calling something something. Now I wanna before we

254
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– dive in, I do wanna

255
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– remind the audience that this as you know,

256
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– a lot of people are like, what’s this

257
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– have to do with sexual compulsivity, sex addiction,

258
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– infidelity? It has everything to do with it,

259
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– and and I’m gonna tell you why. Because

260
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– I think if we call these things bad

261
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– or that bad people do these things, and

262
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– if you’ve done them, you’re now a bad

263
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– person. Right? What do we know about that?

264
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– This starts shameful conversations. Right? You now start

265
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– to see yourself on a hierarchy in the

266
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– world where you are now putting yourself lower

267
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– on the hierarchy. Well, what do we know

268
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– about humans? Humans strive to be as close

269
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– to the top of the hierarchy

270
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– as possible. And inherently, you know, a hierarchy

271
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– can be weaponized and can be evil, and

272
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– I would say most of the ones that

273
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– exist today are superiority,

274
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– I’m more moral than you. Right? So that’s

275
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– now not helping, but what I mean hierarchy

276
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– in the tribe is we love people who

277
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– are safe.

278
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– We love people who love. We love people

279
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– who we want our kids to grow up

280
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– and be more like, who we wanna be

281
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– more like. So there are hierarchies

282
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– that are healthy.

283
00:09:33.759 –> 00:09:36.659
– You know, striving for more truth, more authenticity,

284
00:09:37.039 –> 00:09:39.679
– being prouder of yourself and the decisions that

285
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– you make, that is inherently a hierarchy. It’s

286
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– just the difference with that hierarchy is we’re

287
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– not saying that the people who can’t do

288
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– that are bad people. What we’re saying is

289
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– let’s help each other get to a place

290
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– where we can all live at the top

291
00:09:54.429 –> 00:09:55.870
– of the hierarchy. That’s what I think is

292
00:09:55.870 –> 00:09:57.230
– neat about, you know, the one thing that

293
00:09:57.230 –> 00:09:59.389
– I do think religion preaches, and I appreciate

294
00:09:59.389 –> 00:10:01.070
– this is that there’s enough room for all

295
00:10:01.070 –> 00:10:02.669
– of us at the top. But I think

296
00:10:02.669 –> 00:10:03.889
– what man does

297
00:10:04.350 –> 00:10:06.750
– is says there can’t be an I wanna

298
00:10:06.750 –> 00:10:08.815
– be more moral than you. And I think

299
00:10:08.815 –> 00:10:11.615
– when we twist it, there’s this I can’t

300
00:10:11.615 –> 00:10:13.134
– wait to go to heaven and you don’t

301
00:10:13.134 –> 00:10:14.495
– get to. And I think we do need

302
00:10:14.495 –> 00:10:16.014
– to be careful with a lot of that

303
00:10:16.014 –> 00:10:17.455
– energy because that is actually not what the

304
00:10:17.455 –> 00:10:19.375
– message is. The message is there’s enough room

305
00:10:19.375 –> 00:10:21.054
– for all of us. Let’s just all get

306
00:10:21.054 –> 00:10:22.575
– there. And frankly, what I hear when I

307
00:10:22.575 –> 00:10:24.769
– read all these books is they say, it’s

308
00:10:24.769 –> 00:10:27.250
– your duty to a, get there first, and

309
00:10:27.250 –> 00:10:28.389
– then when you’re there

310
00:10:28.929 –> 00:10:31.409
– drag as many people there as you can.

311
00:10:31.409 –> 00:10:33.089
– But I do want you to speak to

312
00:10:33.089 –> 00:10:35.409
– where that goes wrong, because I think that’s

313
00:10:35.409 –> 00:10:38.074
– really the biggest problem is I think people

314
00:10:38.074 –> 00:10:39.595
– believe in what I just said. That they

315
00:10:39.595 –> 00:10:41.754
– wanna get to arrive at at that state.

316
00:10:41.754 –> 00:10:43.754
– Obviously, they’re not ever done, but they’re continuing

317
00:10:43.754 –> 00:10:45.595
– to work. But then that duty to get

318
00:10:45.595 –> 00:10:48.735
– as many people up there into this listful

319
00:10:48.794 –> 00:10:50.394
– awesome place where you call it heaven or

320
00:10:50.394 –> 00:10:52.360
– whatever you wanna call it. Where’s that part

321
00:10:52.360 –> 00:10:53.879
– go wrong? Because Don, that’s the one that

322
00:10:53.879 –> 00:10:55.559
– I’m the most disturbed by when I look

323
00:10:55.559 –> 00:10:58.519
– around is I actually don’t see people doing

324
00:10:58.519 –> 00:11:00.220
– that. I see it being done in actually

325
00:11:00.440 –> 00:11:02.120
– what looks to me like a very harmful

326
00:11:02.120 –> 00:11:03.419
– way. Can you speak to that?

327
00:11:03.764 –> 00:11:05.605
– Yes. Again, I think you said a lot

328
00:11:05.605 –> 00:11:06.745
– there, but I’m gonna

329
00:11:07.125 –> 00:11:09.065
– go a couple places with it. First,

330
00:11:09.445 –> 00:11:11.365
– I think that there’s really and this will

331
00:11:11.365 –> 00:11:13.285
– align with actually a lot of scriptural teachings

332
00:11:13.285 –> 00:11:15.524
– that there’s two forces in the universe, love

333
00:11:15.524 –> 00:11:16.425
– and fear.

334
00:11:16.860 –> 00:11:18.940
– Right? And I tend to pay attention to

335
00:11:18.940 –> 00:11:21.659
– what people do over what they say. Just

336
00:11:21.659 –> 00:11:24.139
– years of experience has taught me this. And

337
00:11:24.139 –> 00:11:26.139
– I’m operating. You can look at what people

338
00:11:26.139 –> 00:11:28.240
– do and how they think. Is their process

339
00:11:28.460 –> 00:11:28.960
– loving

340
00:11:29.285 –> 00:11:30.665
– or is it fearful?

341
00:11:31.205 –> 00:11:33.285
– Right? If you’re just dying to go to

342
00:11:33.285 –> 00:11:35.045
– heaven and you really can’t wait to see

343
00:11:35.045 –> 00:11:36.485
– these other people you’re pissed at go to

344
00:11:36.485 –> 00:11:36.985
– hell,

345
00:11:37.445 –> 00:11:39.285
– what is that? Right? You know? It’s kind

346
00:11:39.285 –> 00:11:41.285
– of this, like, fear based approach. It’s really

347
00:11:41.285 –> 00:11:43.710
– retributive justice over restorative justice, which is what

348
00:11:43.710 –> 00:11:45.549
– you were describing where, like, there’s enough space

349
00:11:45.549 –> 00:11:46.769
– for everybody at the top.

350
00:11:47.309 –> 00:11:50.110
– So I think that what happens is and

351
00:11:50.110 –> 00:11:51.730
– this relates to sexual compulsivity.

352
00:11:52.190 –> 00:11:54.509
– Right? The more healed we are, the more

353
00:11:54.509 –> 00:11:56.514
– we’re able to love. The more we don’t

354
00:11:56.514 –> 00:11:58.754
– need to compete. We all exist in a

355
00:11:58.754 –> 00:12:00.514
– toxic petri dish here, and a lot of

356
00:12:00.514 –> 00:12:02.615
– people who are struggling with sexual compulsivity,

357
00:12:03.235 –> 00:12:06.195
– oftentimes our deeply wounded folks have been really,

358
00:12:06.195 –> 00:12:07.875
– really hurt. So what do they do? They

359
00:12:07.875 –> 00:12:08.375
– absorb

360
00:12:08.889 –> 00:12:10.730
– what society is taught that is valuable. They

361
00:12:10.730 –> 00:12:12.730
– wear the mask. They wanna compete. They wanna

362
00:12:12.730 –> 00:12:14.490
– get to the top. Right? Because it feels

363
00:12:14.490 –> 00:12:16.250
– good. Then you’ll finally be loved. You’ll finally

364
00:12:16.250 –> 00:12:19.230
– be seen. But this is really compulsive behavior

365
00:12:19.449 –> 00:12:21.690
– where you’re trying to put yourself above everybody

366
00:12:21.690 –> 00:12:23.129
– else, and I’m gonna get to heaven and

367
00:12:23.129 –> 00:12:24.404
– you’re not you can see where it might

368
00:12:24.404 –> 00:12:25.144
– tie into

369
00:12:25.605 –> 00:12:26.665
– religion and evangelicalism

370
00:12:27.605 –> 00:12:29.605
– and so forth. You can see, but what

371
00:12:29.605 –> 00:12:31.465
– that is is kind of a hidden narcissism.

372
00:12:31.845 –> 00:12:33.625
– Mhmm. A fear based thinking

373
00:12:34.004 –> 00:12:36.165
– that’s not very loving. So you said a

374
00:12:36.165 –> 00:12:37.605
– number of things. I tried to kinda touch

375
00:12:37.605 –> 00:12:38.920
– on it in different ways. But you said

376
00:12:38.920 –> 00:12:40.519
– something that was so great because I do

377
00:12:40.600 –> 00:12:43.800
– I think to talk very specifically about compulsive

378
00:12:43.800 –> 00:12:45.879
– sexuality or if we’re ever gonna label somebody

379
00:12:45.879 –> 00:12:48.279
– as a sex addict or pathologize them in

380
00:12:48.279 –> 00:12:50.120
– some way. I think the challenge exactly is

381
00:12:50.120 –> 00:12:51.774
– what you said is the reason I’m not

382
00:12:51.774 –> 00:12:54.335
– a fan of any labels of any humans.

383
00:12:54.335 –> 00:12:56.495
– To me, calling a human something besides their

384
00:12:56.495 –> 00:12:58.575
– name is just not gonna help anything. I

385
00:12:58.575 –> 00:12:59.875
– just I’m not a big fan

386
00:13:00.175 –> 00:13:02.095
– of reducing them to an idea. I just

387
00:13:02.254 –> 00:13:04.175
– I I think that’s the reason so few

388
00:13:04.175 –> 00:13:06.950
– people actually achieve what I would consider real

389
00:13:06.950 –> 00:13:09.190
– recovery. They get to sobriety, but they don’t

390
00:13:09.190 –> 00:13:11.529
– actually achieve long term recovery. And it’s because

391
00:13:11.669 –> 00:13:13.830
– you are that label doing the best you

392
00:13:13.830 –> 00:13:16.230
– can rather than arriving at something that with

393
00:13:16.309 –> 00:13:18.070
– you have a power stronger than the compulsive

394
00:13:18.070 –> 00:13:20.455
– power, Which I call fat recovery. Right? Where

395
00:13:20.455 –> 00:13:22.134
– it’s not that the temptation is gone, but

396
00:13:22.134 –> 00:13:24.455
– I’m making it’s very easy for me to

397
00:13:24.455 –> 00:13:26.154
– make a decision because I know the difference

398
00:13:26.695 –> 00:13:28.375
– between what I am and what I’m not.

399
00:13:28.375 –> 00:13:30.215
– But you said something really beautiful there because

400
00:13:30.215 –> 00:13:32.370
– I think that it’s that hidden narcissism.

401
00:13:32.750 –> 00:13:35.549
– I think when we have these hierarchies, I

402
00:13:35.549 –> 00:13:37.470
– do think that’s really what it is. It

403
00:13:37.470 –> 00:13:39.389
– is not a healthy way to think. It’s

404
00:13:39.389 –> 00:13:41.070
– a very dividing way to think. But what

405
00:13:41.070 –> 00:13:42.669
– I wanted to speak to was what it

406
00:13:42.669 –> 00:13:44.934
– does to you. So I think that one

407
00:13:44.934 –> 00:13:45.975
– of the things that I think a lot

408
00:13:45.975 –> 00:13:48.715
– of high achieving men don’t see is that

409
00:13:49.335 –> 00:13:51.975
– we are oftentimes at the top, and as

410
00:13:51.975 –> 00:13:53.894
– you said, there’s a reason we wanted to

411
00:13:53.894 –> 00:13:56.134
– get there. I made fun of less. I’m

412
00:13:56.134 –> 00:13:58.269
– looked up to often. People walk into my

413
00:13:58.269 –> 00:14:00.750
– home and say, holy smokes. This is your

414
00:14:00.750 –> 00:14:02.930
– home. I mean, like, I’m getting these reactions

415
00:14:03.070 –> 00:14:04.750
– that are signaling to me that I have

416
00:14:04.750 –> 00:14:06.910
– made it. That I am safer here now.

417
00:14:06.910 –> 00:14:08.590
– That no one’s gonna not like me. No

418
00:14:08.590 –> 00:14:10.634
– one’s gonna say anything bad about me. People

419
00:14:10.634 –> 00:14:12.235
– are going to ask me questions, people are

420
00:14:12.235 –> 00:14:14.394
– going to want to follow me and copy

421
00:14:14.394 –> 00:14:16.634
– me, right? So it’s this very flattering place

422
00:14:16.634 –> 00:14:18.315
– to arrive and I just want to there’s

423
00:14:18.315 –> 00:14:20.554
– no mystery as to why people are trying

424
00:14:20.554 –> 00:14:21.934
– to arrive at that place.

425
00:14:22.980 –> 00:14:26.339
– I love it. Petri dish, man. Yeah. Right?

426
00:14:26.339 –> 00:14:27.779
– Yeah. And that’s where and that’s where a

427
00:14:27.779 –> 00:14:29.699
– lot of people say that, and I really

428
00:14:29.699 –> 00:14:31.720
– despise it, Don, because I feel like

429
00:14:32.259 –> 00:14:34.179
– the money I’ve earned is blood money. I

430
00:14:34.179 –> 00:14:35.860
– really do. I just when they say those

431
00:14:35.860 –> 00:14:37.779
– things about me, it’s like, yeah, that’s not

432
00:14:37.779 –> 00:14:40.394
– the narrative though. You don’t know why I

433
00:14:40.394 –> 00:14:42.475
– wanted to get here. I didn’t wanna get

434
00:14:42.475 –> 00:14:44.554
– here to be someone who had accomplished something

435
00:14:44.554 –> 00:14:46.554
– great. I do now, but I wanted to

436
00:14:46.554 –> 00:14:48.575
– get here to insulate myself

437
00:14:48.955 –> 00:14:51.595
– from that. A fear based path. So I

438
00:14:51.595 –> 00:14:53.215
– want you to speak to both

439
00:14:53.559 –> 00:14:54.540
– the high achieving

440
00:14:55.240 –> 00:14:56.279
– really what I’d like you to speak to,

441
00:14:56.279 –> 00:14:57.800
– because I’m bad at speaking at this. I

442
00:14:57.800 –> 00:14:59.899
– haven’t really had a way to conceptualize it.

443
00:15:00.040 –> 00:15:02.680
– What does it do to you with this

444
00:15:02.680 –> 00:15:03.180
– ruthless

445
00:15:03.559 –> 00:15:04.059
– pursuit

446
00:15:04.600 –> 00:15:05.340
– of excellence?

447
00:15:05.865 –> 00:15:07.705
– Because again, I don’t think we think about

448
00:15:07.705 –> 00:15:10.264
– that often, but what’s that Like psychologically, what’s

449
00:15:10.264 –> 00:15:12.205
– the narrative that you are reinforcing

450
00:15:12.664 –> 00:15:14.264
– every time you do that? And can you

451
00:15:14.264 –> 00:15:16.504
– apply it to, especially why that would keep

452
00:15:16.504 –> 00:15:19.384
– somebody trapped in their sexual compulsivity and attention

453
00:15:19.384 –> 00:15:20.205
– seeking behavior?

454
00:15:20.539 –> 00:15:22.699
– Absolutely. A lot of the high achieving men

455
00:15:22.699 –> 00:15:25.259
– I work with are wounded as kids. Right?

456
00:15:25.259 –> 00:15:25.759
– And

457
00:15:26.059 –> 00:15:28.059
– oftentimes what happens is you start to wear

458
00:15:28.059 –> 00:15:28.639
– a mask,

459
00:15:29.100 –> 00:15:31.100
– and then that mask, the world starts to

460
00:15:31.100 –> 00:15:33.554
– reinforce you for that mask. Right? And that’s

461
00:15:33.554 –> 00:15:35.475
– what the money is. That’s what the attractiveness

462
00:15:35.475 –> 00:15:36.674
– is. That’s what you know what I mean?

463
00:15:36.674 –> 00:15:38.035
– And I think men, we can be especially

464
00:15:38.035 –> 00:15:40.434
– vulnerable to it. But the more the bigger

465
00:15:40.434 –> 00:15:42.035
– your ego is, the bigger your shadow is.

466
00:15:42.035 –> 00:15:43.634
– Right? Because you start to believe you are

467
00:15:43.634 –> 00:15:45.875
– the mask, and that distances you from your

468
00:15:45.875 –> 00:15:48.490
– true self, your authentic self. Right? So the

469
00:15:48.490 –> 00:15:50.570
– more you reinforce for the mask, the deeper

470
00:15:50.570 –> 00:15:51.309
– your insecurities

471
00:15:51.690 –> 00:15:52.190
– get.

472
00:15:52.490 –> 00:15:54.410
– Okay? And often this is unconscious because it’s

473
00:15:54.410 –> 00:15:55.850
– kinda like if they only knew the real

474
00:15:55.850 –> 00:15:57.450
– me, because you know you know at some

475
00:15:57.450 –> 00:15:59.129
– level the real you. You know it’s a

476
00:15:59.129 –> 00:15:59.629
– mask,

477
00:16:00.009 –> 00:16:02.090
– right? So you can start to feel hollow.

478
00:16:02.090 –> 00:16:03.710
– The more hollow you feel,

479
00:16:04.095 –> 00:16:06.414
– the more you subtly, in my opinion, many

480
00:16:06.414 –> 00:16:07.554
– people hate themselves.

481
00:16:07.934 –> 00:16:09.454
– Right? And the more you hate yourself, the

482
00:16:09.454 –> 00:16:11.134
– more shame you feel. Well, what’s that gonna

483
00:16:11.134 –> 00:16:13.934
– do? Fuel more compulsive behavior, fuel more the

484
00:16:13.934 –> 00:16:15.774
– mass, the more women that like me, the

485
00:16:15.774 –> 00:16:17.509
– more money I have. You can see how

486
00:16:17.509 –> 00:16:19.110
– people get addicted to it and then hate

487
00:16:19.110 –> 00:16:21.190
– themselves for being addicted to it. This stuff

488
00:16:21.190 –> 00:16:23.990
– gets really, really paradoxical. So what men really

489
00:16:23.990 –> 00:16:26.149
– need to do, Roland, is they need to

490
00:16:26.149 –> 00:16:27.429
– open up and you’ve done a good job

491
00:16:27.429 –> 00:16:28.725
– of this with the guys in your group.

492
00:16:28.725 –> 00:16:30.725
– You know, for those listeners, Roland’s really helped

493
00:16:30.725 –> 00:16:33.225
– one of my clients tremendously. There’s authenticity

494
00:16:33.605 –> 00:16:35.524
– in these groups, but what men need to

495
00:16:35.524 –> 00:16:37.924
– do, it’s a three step process. Okay? You

496
00:16:37.924 –> 00:16:39.845
– need to talk about the shadow, the shit

497
00:16:39.845 –> 00:16:42.000
– that you won’t wanna tell anybody, Whether it’s

498
00:16:42.000 –> 00:16:43.920
– ways that you were abused or you’ve abused

499
00:16:43.920 –> 00:16:45.920
– others, whether it’s your narcissism, whether it’s your

500
00:16:45.920 –> 00:16:48.240
– insecurities, whether it’s all that, you need to

501
00:16:48.240 –> 00:16:49.920
– open up and face the shadow. Then you

502
00:16:49.920 –> 00:16:51.680
– need to take a breath, let your shoulders

503
00:16:51.680 –> 00:16:54.720
– drop, and welcome yourself to humanity because we

504
00:16:54.720 –> 00:16:57.295
– all have it. Everybody thinks they’re alone, but

505
00:16:57.295 –> 00:16:58.975
– they’re not alone. And so many other people

506
00:16:58.975 –> 00:17:00.894
– deal with this too. Right? You need to

507
00:17:00.894 –> 00:17:02.975
– forgive yourself for it. And number three is

508
00:17:02.975 –> 00:17:05.455
– really you slay the dragon by befriending the

509
00:17:05.455 –> 00:17:07.695
– dragon. When people are able to understand that

510
00:17:07.695 –> 00:17:09.740
– they are both their mask and the other

511
00:17:09.740 –> 00:17:11.740
– stuff underneath, and they can use them both

512
00:17:11.740 –> 00:17:14.059
– in a flexible manner, then you’re humming on

513
00:17:14.059 –> 00:17:14.799
– all cylinders.

514
00:17:15.179 –> 00:17:17.440
– It’s a process that takes place in psychotherapy.

515
00:17:17.659 –> 00:17:19.819
– It’s a process that takes place when you’re

516
00:17:19.819 –> 00:17:21.500
– in a really safe place where you can

517
00:17:21.500 –> 00:17:23.259
– look at all parts of yourself and love

518
00:17:23.259 –> 00:17:24.855
– them like everything belongs,

519
00:17:25.394 –> 00:17:27.714
– that doesn’t mean you continue to pursue toxic,

520
00:17:27.714 –> 00:17:30.454
– compulsive, harmful behavior to others. I’m not endorsing

521
00:17:30.515 –> 00:17:32.674
– that, but I’m saying you’re embracing all parts

522
00:17:32.674 –> 00:17:35.234
– of yourself, bringing them together into a human

523
00:17:35.234 –> 00:17:36.755
– form, then you can kind of be your

524
00:17:36.755 –> 00:17:38.259
– best self. I love what you said there

525
00:17:38.259 –> 00:17:40.339
– too. Like, high achieving men, I feel like

526
00:17:40.339 –> 00:17:42.440
– they often I’ve done this a million times.

527
00:17:42.500 –> 00:17:44.740
– We really other ourselves. Right? Like, no one

528
00:17:44.740 –> 00:17:47.460
– understands or I’m not like the general pop.

529
00:17:47.460 –> 00:17:48.819
– But I think you said it really nicely

530
00:17:48.819 –> 00:17:51.059
– is everybody has a void. I do think

531
00:17:51.059 –> 00:17:53.595
– high achieving men because of how well we

532
00:17:53.595 –> 00:17:55.755
– play the game of capitalism, our void, I

533
00:17:55.755 –> 00:17:57.994
– think just grows more. But I I think,

534
00:17:57.994 –> 00:18:00.335
– don’t obsess on the size of the void

535
00:18:00.554 –> 00:18:02.575
– because to your point, I think everyone

536
00:18:02.875 –> 00:18:05.355
– has that void of, I hate that I

537
00:18:05.355 –> 00:18:07.329
– have to act like what I’m not, but

538
00:18:07.329 –> 00:18:10.230
– I also hate what I think I am.

539
00:18:10.450 –> 00:18:11.809
– Which is funny because you’re actually not that

540
00:18:11.809 –> 00:18:13.569
– thing that you’re running away from either. It’s

541
00:18:13.569 –> 00:18:15.009
– like, you’re not the thing that you’re chasing.

542
00:18:15.009 –> 00:18:16.609
– You’re not the thing you’re running away from.

543
00:18:16.609 –> 00:18:18.224
– You’re actually neither. I I think you said

544
00:18:18.224 –> 00:18:20.545
– it really nicely is everyone’s playing that game.

545
00:18:20.545 –> 00:18:22.545
– I think the problem is because we built

546
00:18:22.545 –> 00:18:24.484
– this world really well for

547
00:18:24.785 –> 00:18:26.164
– charismatic, high achieving

548
00:18:26.704 –> 00:18:30.065
– men, that void just grows at a really

549
00:18:30.065 –> 00:18:31.904
– rapid rate. And there’s so many institutions that

550
00:18:31.904 –> 00:18:32.964
– actually facilitate

551
00:18:33.599 –> 00:18:34.099
– you

552
00:18:34.400 –> 00:18:36.480
– making that boy bigger. And in many ways,

553
00:18:36.480 –> 00:18:37.539
– a lot of teachers

554
00:18:38.160 –> 00:18:41.279
– and influencers and people telling you good job

555
00:18:41.279 –> 00:18:44.079
– for how far you’ve come from that thing

556
00:18:44.079 –> 00:18:46.755
– that you hated. The irony is, to your

557
00:18:46.755 –> 00:18:48.755
– point, what if you’re neither? And news flash,

558
00:18:48.755 –> 00:18:50.355
– you are neither. And so I think that’s

559
00:18:50.355 –> 00:18:52.775
– why it just never feels that great is

560
00:18:53.075 –> 00:18:54.434
– I’m not the thing I’m running away from.

561
00:18:54.434 –> 00:18:56.195
– I’m not the thing I’m running towards. And

562
00:18:56.195 –> 00:18:58.214
– I think when you get so much praise

563
00:18:58.275 –> 00:19:00.195
– for that one Oh, and I wanna speak

564
00:19:00.195 –> 00:19:01.859
– to this too. Actually, I wanna go here

565
00:19:01.859 –> 00:19:03.299
– right now because I think you can speak

566
00:19:03.299 –> 00:19:05.140
– to this so nicely. So on this topic

567
00:19:05.140 –> 00:19:06.900
– of the void, Don, here’s what I think

568
00:19:06.900 –> 00:19:07.799
– happens with

569
00:19:08.339 –> 00:19:12.039
– sex addiction recovery as it’s been formally constructed.

570
00:19:13.475 –> 00:19:16.595
– We realize that the pursuit of becoming that

571
00:19:16.595 –> 00:19:18.775
– excellent amazing version of ourselves

572
00:19:19.475 –> 00:19:20.855
– is causing a lot of problems.

573
00:19:21.555 –> 00:19:23.875
– So we actually surrender to, hey. Hey. No.

574
00:19:23.875 –> 00:19:24.835
– I get it. I get it. I get

575
00:19:24.835 –> 00:19:26.579
– it. So that’s actually pretty easy for guys

576
00:19:26.579 –> 00:19:27.859
– to understand. It’s like, no. I could get

577
00:19:27.859 –> 00:19:29.619
– how this could excel in two verticals of

578
00:19:29.619 –> 00:19:31.380
– life and harm the other 12. So I

579
00:19:31.380 –> 00:19:33.380
– don’t think that’s a foreign concept. I think

580
00:19:33.380 –> 00:19:35.619
– they actually saw that all along. So they

581
00:19:35.619 –> 00:19:38.740
– actually can demask that one. Here’s the thing

582
00:19:38.740 –> 00:19:40.119
– that I don’t like is

583
00:19:40.714 –> 00:19:41.214
– institutionally,

584
00:19:41.515 –> 00:19:43.515
– and I think it’s by accident, we shame

585
00:19:43.515 –> 00:19:45.375
– the shit out of

586
00:19:45.994 –> 00:19:48.474
– the other part of you. So it’s like

587
00:19:48.474 –> 00:19:50.154
– it’s like no man’s land. Right? It’s like,

588
00:19:50.154 –> 00:19:53.055
– okay, we can’t be this performative person anymore

589
00:19:53.115 –> 00:19:54.734
– because that person hurts people.

590
00:19:55.039 –> 00:19:56.799
– But then we shame the hell out of

591
00:19:56.799 –> 00:19:58.799
– the addict, or the compulsive, or the hurt

592
00:19:58.880 –> 00:20:00.240
– you know. And again, I don’t think they

593
00:20:00.240 –> 00:20:02.319
– mean to, but it really kinda screws you

594
00:20:02.319 –> 00:20:04.079
– over. Because it’s like, so hold on. Over

595
00:20:04.079 –> 00:20:05.519
– here everybody liked me and you’re telling me

596
00:20:05.519 –> 00:20:07.039
– I can’t do that anymore. But then over

597
00:20:07.039 –> 00:20:09.015
– here, you’re gonna kick me while I’m down.

598
00:20:09.095 –> 00:20:10.375
– And I think for a lot of high

599
00:20:10.375 –> 00:20:11.974
– achieving men, I don’t think this is every

600
00:20:11.974 –> 00:20:14.054
– guy’s experience of recovery, but I think for

601
00:20:14.054 –> 00:20:15.755
– a lot of high achieving men, it’s like

602
00:20:15.815 –> 00:20:18.214
– they’re just trapped in limbo. And I don’t

603
00:20:18.214 –> 00:20:19.595
– think there’s really good direction.

604
00:20:19.894 –> 00:20:21.779
– So I’d love for you to speak to

605
00:20:21.779 –> 00:20:23.940
– both relate because I do think the topic

606
00:20:23.940 –> 00:20:26.840
– of this podcast religious. I do think religion

607
00:20:27.059 –> 00:20:28.600
– does something very similar

608
00:20:28.980 –> 00:20:29.480
– oftentimes

609
00:20:29.940 –> 00:20:31.619
– that a lot of things we see in

610
00:20:31.619 –> 00:20:35.424
– recovery containers will do. Where instead of encouraging

611
00:20:35.424 –> 00:20:38.224
– somebody to embrace something authentic, it’s you can’t

612
00:20:38.224 –> 00:20:39.904
– be this, and we’re gonna shame the hell

613
00:20:39.904 –> 00:20:41.345
– out of this version. What do we do

614
00:20:41.345 –> 00:20:42.705
– with this? You need to speak to that

615
00:20:42.705 –> 00:20:44.484
– because I don’t think anyone’s really

616
00:20:45.105 –> 00:20:46.785
– created a road map for that. And in

617
00:20:46.785 –> 00:20:48.465
– my opinion, that’s the most important road map

618
00:20:48.465 –> 00:20:49.079
– of all.

619
00:20:49.480 –> 00:20:51.559
– And as men, there’s some evidence that we

620
00:20:51.559 –> 00:20:52.940
– really respond to our mentorship.

621
00:20:53.240 –> 00:20:55.480
– Right? And so this has to be modeled

622
00:20:55.480 –> 00:20:57.000
– for us. And so if we don’t know

623
00:20:57.000 –> 00:20:58.599
– how to be that, and I think there’s

624
00:20:58.599 –> 00:21:00.059
– actually a crisis of masculinity

625
00:21:00.359 –> 00:21:02.200
– going on right now too, to not to

626
00:21:02.200 –> 00:21:03.954
– bring the whole gender, some of that crisis

627
00:21:03.954 –> 00:21:05.954
– into it. But honestly, like, right now, we’ve

628
00:21:05.954 –> 00:21:08.674
– known that certain elements of traditional masculinity have

629
00:21:08.674 –> 00:21:10.274
– been harmful to women and harmful to the

630
00:21:10.274 –> 00:21:11.634
– world. Right? And so people are saying, don’t

631
00:21:11.634 –> 00:21:13.974
– be that. Okay? But then, like, nothing replaced

632
00:21:14.034 –> 00:21:15.794
– that. Right. And so how do we be

633
00:21:15.794 –> 00:21:18.194
– our authentic selves? What does a modern man

634
00:21:18.194 –> 00:21:18.855
– look like?

635
00:21:19.289 –> 00:21:21.789
– Man, that’s a complex topic.

636
00:21:22.090 –> 00:21:23.850
– It’s a complex topic, and I think we

637
00:21:23.850 –> 00:21:25.369
– can kinda know it when we see it.

638
00:21:25.369 –> 00:21:27.369
– It’s like, you know, but So speak to

639
00:21:27.450 –> 00:21:29.130
– and and go back before we go into

640
00:21:29.130 –> 00:21:31.210
– the road map, speak to religion too because

641
00:21:31.210 –> 00:21:32.509
– I do think this is

642
00:21:32.984 –> 00:21:34.904
– really the if we were to encompass religious

643
00:21:34.904 –> 00:21:36.265
– trauma, I do think that’s kind of the

644
00:21:36.265 –> 00:21:38.585
– issue too. It’s, hey, don’t be performative and

645
00:21:38.585 –> 00:21:39.565
– be of the world,

646
00:21:39.944 –> 00:21:40.684
– but also

647
00:21:40.984 –> 00:21:43.305
– don’t be what we call bad. It’s which

648
00:21:43.305 –> 00:21:44.744
– is really sad because it’s just a hurt

649
00:21:44.744 –> 00:21:47.090
– person doing their best. But again, I do

650
00:21:47.090 –> 00:21:49.890
– think it creates these people wandering around in

651
00:21:49.890 –> 00:21:50.390
– limbo

652
00:21:51.009 –> 00:21:53.730
– terrified of what to do because there’s not

653
00:21:53.730 –> 00:21:55.490
– a clear road. Can you speak to the

654
00:21:55.490 –> 00:21:57.809
– institution of religion and how that can happen

655
00:21:57.809 –> 00:21:58.470
– by accident?

656
00:21:58.865 –> 00:22:01.984
– I can. Healthy religion infuses the world with

657
00:22:01.984 –> 00:22:02.484
– meaning.

658
00:22:02.785 –> 00:22:04.625
– What we’ve seen with a lot of the

659
00:22:04.625 –> 00:22:05.125
– deconstructive

660
00:22:05.505 –> 00:22:06.005
– postmodern

661
00:22:06.305 –> 00:22:08.884
– ideologies recently is a lot of our institutions

662
00:22:09.105 –> 00:22:11.984
– and religious ideologies have been kinda deconstructed, and

663
00:22:11.984 –> 00:22:13.765
– then we’re left with a crisis of meaninglessness.

664
00:22:13.984 –> 00:22:16.460
– Right? So they do serve their place. They

665
00:22:16.460 –> 00:22:18.779
– infuse the world with love and meaning. But

666
00:22:18.779 –> 00:22:21.359
– when it’s adhered to in a rigid manner

667
00:22:21.819 –> 00:22:24.559
– and when it’s adhered to and when leaders

668
00:22:24.619 –> 00:22:26.079
– don’t have self awareness,

669
00:22:26.859 –> 00:22:28.159
– that’s when it becomes

670
00:22:29.085 –> 00:22:29.585
– harmful.

671
00:22:30.204 –> 00:22:33.164
– So the religions, in my opinion, have to

672
00:22:33.164 –> 00:22:35.484
– be held loosely. There has to be, honestly,

673
00:22:35.484 –> 00:22:37.244
– a mix of eastern and western thought if

674
00:22:37.244 –> 00:22:38.224
– we’re talking psychologically

675
00:22:38.684 –> 00:22:40.464
– when you understand these things.

676
00:22:40.845 –> 00:22:41.345
– So

677
00:22:41.740 –> 00:22:43.440
– I see inherent value

678
00:22:43.899 –> 00:22:46.079
– because it helps teach people

679
00:22:46.779 –> 00:22:49.679
– we have unconscious value systems that we’re internalizing

680
00:22:49.819 –> 00:22:51.839
– through a lot of the stories of religion.

681
00:22:52.059 –> 00:22:54.640
– Moral codes are taught through story and mentorship,

682
00:22:54.700 –> 00:22:57.375
– and religion provides a lot of that. But

683
00:22:57.375 –> 00:22:59.214
– when you grab onto it in a literal

684
00:22:59.214 –> 00:23:00.755
– manner or a pathological

685
00:23:01.134 –> 00:23:01.634
– manner,

686
00:23:01.934 –> 00:23:04.195
– that’s when it becomes oppressive and harmful.

687
00:23:04.894 –> 00:23:06.355
– So it’s like, how do we

688
00:23:06.734 –> 00:23:08.755
– not throw the baby out with the bathwater?

689
00:23:09.279 –> 00:23:11.359
– People who might study, like, perennialism is like

690
00:23:11.359 –> 00:23:13.619
– understanding deeper truths in all religions.

691
00:23:14.079 –> 00:23:16.559
– Right? People who really ask deep questions about

692
00:23:16.559 –> 00:23:18.559
– how do I stand for something without standing

693
00:23:18.559 –> 00:23:20.559
– on somebody? I think every human in society

694
00:23:20.559 –> 00:23:22.464
– needs to ask that. How do I take

695
00:23:22.464 –> 00:23:24.884
– value and richness from my own tradition

696
00:23:25.505 –> 00:23:28.704
– while also respecting somebody else’s tradition or lack

697
00:23:28.704 –> 00:23:31.585
– of a tradition? Right? That’s humility. But when

698
00:23:31.585 –> 00:23:33.744
– you’re doing that, when you’re approaching it in

699
00:23:33.744 –> 00:23:36.005
– that manner, you’re approaching it with love, sensitivity,

700
00:23:36.640 –> 00:23:38.640
– and ability to see as opposed to just

701
00:23:38.640 –> 00:23:41.299
– being attached to your own narrative and conditioning.

702
00:23:41.679 –> 00:23:44.000
– The reality is, if we’re all honest, whatever

703
00:23:44.000 –> 00:23:45.759
– religion you are, it’s probably based on who

704
00:23:45.759 –> 00:23:47.759
– your parents were and what area of the

705
00:23:47.759 –> 00:23:49.599
– world you were born into. If you had

706
00:23:49.599 –> 00:23:51.525
– wonderful parents who were Christian, you’re probably gonna

707
00:23:51.525 –> 00:23:53.285
– be Christian. Right? Or if you had a

708
00:23:53.285 –> 00:23:55.045
– pastor or somebody teach you a way of

709
00:23:55.045 –> 00:23:57.045
– love and you interpreted that as Christianity, you’re

710
00:23:57.045 –> 00:23:59.045
– probably gonna be Christian. If you were born

711
00:23:59.045 –> 00:24:00.404
– in a Hindu family and they were really

712
00:24:00.404 –> 00:24:01.865
– loving and they taught you Hinduism,

713
00:24:02.164 –> 00:24:04.325
– you would probably be Hindu. Right? If you

714
00:24:04.325 –> 00:24:06.990
– were born into an amazing atheist loving family,

715
00:24:06.990 –> 00:24:08.289
– you’d probably be atheist.

716
00:24:09.070 –> 00:24:10.750
– Okay. I’m kinda rambling out here real quick.

717
00:24:10.750 –> 00:24:12.430
– No. You’re not. You’re not. Because I think

718
00:24:12.430 –> 00:24:14.190
– you’re saying something important. And I what I

719
00:24:14.190 –> 00:24:15.390
– wanted to say because a lot of people

720
00:24:15.390 –> 00:24:16.670
– are gonna hear that and say, well, how

721
00:24:16.670 –> 00:24:18.289
– do I hold my religion loosely?

722
00:24:18.605 –> 00:24:19.884
– Which is funny to use that term. I

723
00:24:19.884 –> 00:24:21.325
– use that term when I talk about beliefs

724
00:24:21.325 –> 00:24:23.085
– as well. I say, it’s fine to believe

725
00:24:23.085 –> 00:24:25.565
– something. Just I’d prefer that we all held

726
00:24:25.565 –> 00:24:27.484
– our beliefs loosely so that when we were

727
00:24:27.484 –> 00:24:30.045
– introduced to a superior belief to the one

728
00:24:30.045 –> 00:24:31.984
– that we believe, you could switch.

729
00:24:32.410 –> 00:24:34.250
– Because I think when we hold our beliefs

730
00:24:34.250 –> 00:24:34.990
– too tightly,

731
00:24:35.529 –> 00:24:37.930
– we may be presented with one that actually

732
00:24:37.930 –> 00:24:40.009
– will serve us more. But if you’re so

733
00:24:40.009 –> 00:24:42.410
– fixated to the one that you are currently

734
00:24:42.410 –> 00:24:44.410
– attached to, you will not allow this new

735
00:24:44.410 –> 00:24:45.769
– one into your life. And what a bummer.

736
00:24:45.769 –> 00:24:47.130
– What a bummer that is because what we

737
00:24:47.130 –> 00:24:49.505
– know about humans is we need to evolve.

738
00:24:49.505 –> 00:24:51.424
– We need to change. We’ve all of us

739
00:24:51.424 –> 00:24:53.924
– have had a harmful belief that we’ve dropped.

740
00:24:53.984 –> 00:24:56.404
– And so to think that any of them

741
00:24:57.025 –> 00:24:59.664
– are not harmful, I think is scary. I

742
00:24:59.664 –> 00:25:01.825
– don’t know what grounds you have to say

743
00:25:01.825 –> 00:25:03.424
– such a thing. And so what I would

744
00:25:03.424 –> 00:25:05.140
– advise people, and you can do this, and

745
00:25:05.140 –> 00:25:06.900
– then after this I wanna get back to

746
00:25:06.900 –> 00:25:09.299
– what is this roadmap? How can one find

747
00:25:09.299 –> 00:25:11.539
– this in between roadmap? What I would say

748
00:25:11.539 –> 00:25:13.779
– to everybody listening to this to just hold

749
00:25:13.779 –> 00:25:15.240
– your religious beliefs loosely.

750
00:25:15.779 –> 00:25:16.994
– I’m I’m not asking you to not believe

751
00:25:16.994 –> 00:25:18.275
– the book. I’m not asking you to not

752
00:25:18.275 –> 00:25:19.475
– go to church and stuff like that. What

753
00:25:19.475 –> 00:25:21.154
– I just wanna say is I think what

754
00:25:21.154 –> 00:25:22.674
– people don’t know, and I know what I’m

755
00:25:22.674 –> 00:25:24.515
– about to say is an advanced concept, but

756
00:25:24.515 –> 00:25:25.654
– try and hear me out.

757
00:25:25.955 –> 00:25:27.095
– The written language,

758
00:25:27.634 –> 00:25:29.255
– written and spoken language

759
00:25:30.210 –> 00:25:32.849
– is understood differently by every single person reading

760
00:25:32.849 –> 00:25:34.369
– it. That’s the challenge with words. And a

761
00:25:34.369 –> 00:25:36.130
– lot of us don’t think this. And then

762
00:25:36.130 –> 00:25:37.730
– like Don Miguel talks about a lot, right,

763
00:25:37.730 –> 00:25:39.809
– is we think in our native language as

764
00:25:39.809 –> 00:25:41.569
– well. So a lot of our thinking is

765
00:25:41.569 –> 00:25:43.970
– done in English for the most people listening

766
00:25:43.970 –> 00:25:46.295
– to this. And so you’re thinking in English

767
00:25:46.295 –> 00:25:49.174
– using words that you think you understand, that

768
00:25:49.174 –> 00:25:51.654
– you might actually understand. And so I think

769
00:25:51.654 –> 00:25:53.815
– the way I understand holding your religion loosely

770
00:25:53.815 –> 00:25:55.994
– is just it’s a bunch of people

771
00:25:56.375 –> 00:25:58.055
– who wrote a book and are in a

772
00:25:58.055 –> 00:25:59.914
– building, and we’re all

773
00:26:00.509 –> 00:26:02.990
– trying to do our best to articulate something

774
00:26:02.990 –> 00:26:05.070
– that’s very hard to articulate. That is why

775
00:26:05.070 –> 00:26:06.509
– I would just encourage all of you guys.

776
00:26:06.509 –> 00:26:08.109
– I’m not saying don’t believe the book. I’ve

777
00:26:08.109 –> 00:26:09.789
– read it and I really love it. That’s

778
00:26:09.789 –> 00:26:11.970
– why I’ve taught Chat GPT to

779
00:26:12.365 –> 00:26:14.924
– pitch me all translations. And not just all

780
00:26:14.924 –> 00:26:17.085
– translations, but all other what the other religions

781
00:26:17.085 –> 00:26:19.005
– would say about the same scripture. Because I

782
00:26:19.005 –> 00:26:20.384
– think if I can accumulate

783
00:26:21.325 –> 00:26:23.484
– hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of translations of

784
00:26:23.484 –> 00:26:24.384
– the same principle,

785
00:26:24.880 –> 00:26:26.740
– I will be more likely

786
00:26:27.200 –> 00:26:29.779
– to understand it as what they were trying

787
00:26:30.000 –> 00:26:33.039
– to say. So that’s my interpretation of holding

788
00:26:33.039 –> 00:26:34.799
– it loosely is I’m not saying don’t believe

789
00:26:34.799 –> 00:26:36.720
– it. I’m not saying that. What I’m saying

790
00:26:36.720 –> 00:26:39.174
– is do your due diligence to make sure

791
00:26:39.174 –> 00:26:41.414
– you’re reading it correctly. And that’s not talking

792
00:26:41.414 –> 00:26:43.174
– to that one guy at church with his

793
00:26:43.174 –> 00:26:45.674
– little white square because he’s just another person

794
00:26:45.734 –> 00:26:48.214
– who has his definition of language. Right? So

795
00:26:48.214 –> 00:26:49.894
– you need to talk to a lot of

796
00:26:49.894 –> 00:26:51.494
– people and say what’s this mean to you?

797
00:26:51.494 –> 00:26:52.775
– What’s this mean to you? And I think

798
00:26:52.775 –> 00:26:54.214
– the most important thing is you need to

799
00:26:54.214 –> 00:26:56.230
– take all of their feedback and make a

800
00:26:56.230 –> 00:26:57.210
– decision on

801
00:26:57.829 –> 00:26:59.990
– what feels. I’ll go with a feeling, not

802
00:26:59.990 –> 00:27:02.390
– a thought, but a feeling. What feels like

803
00:27:02.390 –> 00:27:04.309
– what was trying to be communicated in this

804
00:27:04.309 –> 00:27:06.390
– scripture, in this text? So Don what’s your

805
00:27:06.390 –> 00:27:08.950
– advice on holding it loosely? Because we’re not

806
00:27:08.950 –> 00:27:11.484
– saying don’t believe it. We’re just saying be

807
00:27:11.484 –> 00:27:13.424
– careful and make sure you’re understanding it correctly.

808
00:27:13.484 –> 00:27:14.845
– Yes. I don’t think I can say it

809
00:27:14.845 –> 00:27:16.684
– better than you did there. I think the

810
00:27:16.684 –> 00:27:18.605
– heart space is always more powerful than the

811
00:27:18.605 –> 00:27:20.845
– head space. Yeah. And what you described, your

812
00:27:20.845 –> 00:27:22.204
– actions there are one of what I would

813
00:27:22.204 –> 00:27:23.724
– say not to use my language sounds a

814
00:27:23.724 –> 00:27:25.825
– little histrionic here, but a true seeker.

815
00:27:26.179 –> 00:27:29.059
– Open minded true seeker that recognizes you have

816
00:27:29.059 –> 00:27:31.700
– a limited human understanding of the divine if

817
00:27:31.700 –> 00:27:33.619
– there is such a thing, but you’re trying

818
00:27:33.619 –> 00:27:35.140
– to get out of your head and your

819
00:27:35.140 –> 00:27:36.839
– own attachments Yes.

820
00:27:37.140 –> 00:27:37.640
– And

821
00:27:38.019 –> 00:27:38.519
– explore.

822
00:27:39.059 –> 00:27:41.000
– And if there is a God,

823
00:27:41.484 –> 00:27:43.565
– you would hope that that God would like

824
00:27:43.565 –> 00:27:44.065
– that.

825
00:27:44.365 –> 00:27:46.684
– Right? Right. Otherwise, what kind of God are

826
00:27:46.684 –> 00:27:48.924
– you worshiping? You know? Right. Right. Right. Exactly.

827
00:27:48.924 –> 00:27:51.085
– Right? Like, so, like, actually, like, freedom of

828
00:27:51.085 –> 00:27:53.724
– thought and exploring and trying to, like, serve

829
00:27:53.724 –> 00:27:55.964
– love regardless of what you call it. That’s

830
00:27:55.964 –> 00:27:56.464
– awesome.

831
00:27:56.929 –> 00:27:58.130
– And for people who are having a hard

832
00:27:58.130 –> 00:28:00.049
– time hearing this, I would also say this

833
00:28:00.049 –> 00:28:01.890
– is in the bible. In the beginning, there

834
00:28:01.890 –> 00:28:03.650
– was the word, and the word was with

835
00:28:03.650 –> 00:28:04.950
– God. In the beginning,

836
00:28:05.329 –> 00:28:07.329
– it was with him. You guys hear that,

837
00:28:07.329 –> 00:28:09.190
– sir? In the beginning, it was.

838
00:28:09.615 –> 00:28:11.535
– And then the problem with the word is

839
00:28:11.535 –> 00:28:13.934
– it kind of goes wherever a man take

840
00:28:13.934 –> 00:28:15.454
– it. So again, this is not Don and

841
00:28:15.454 –> 00:28:16.974
– I are not making this stuff up. This

842
00:28:16.974 –> 00:28:19.055
– is actually in the text teaching you to

843
00:28:19.055 –> 00:28:19.795
– be careful

844
00:28:20.335 –> 00:28:21.855
– about it, because it is we have to

845
00:28:21.855 –> 00:28:23.509
– be careful. When I read the books, I

846
00:28:23.509 –> 00:28:25.990
– don’t read this fearful punitive book. I read

847
00:28:25.990 –> 00:28:27.930
– a book teaching us how to be careful,

848
00:28:28.070 –> 00:28:30.309
– and a series of stories of how not

849
00:28:30.309 –> 00:28:32.650
– being careful has led people to a ton

850
00:28:32.710 –> 00:28:34.789
– a ton of suffering. So I do before

851
00:28:34.789 –> 00:28:36.070
– we run out of time, I do wanna

852
00:28:36.070 –> 00:28:37.430
– speak to the elephant in the room, and

853
00:28:37.430 –> 00:28:40.054
– it’s a tough thing to answer, but what

854
00:28:40.514 –> 00:28:43.474
– is this third for I don’t even wanna

855
00:28:43.474 –> 00:28:44.914
– call it a third because there’s infinite options.

856
00:28:44.914 –> 00:28:46.514
– But I mean, if you’re in no man’s

857
00:28:46.514 –> 00:28:48.595
– land where you can’t be this shameful hurt

858
00:28:48.595 –> 00:28:50.514
– person because that’s not who you are, but

859
00:28:50.514 –> 00:28:52.514
– you also can’t be this righteous individual who

860
00:28:52.514 –> 00:28:54.390
– has it all figured out. I do think

861
00:28:54.390 –> 00:28:57.109
– we’re seeing this predicament in all areas. I

862
00:28:57.109 –> 00:28:58.470
– don’t I think we’re seeing it in religion

863
00:28:58.470 –> 00:28:59.130
– and spirituality.

864
00:28:59.430 –> 00:29:00.890
– I think we’re seeing it in masculinity,

865
00:29:01.190 –> 00:29:03.190
– and I think we’re seeing it in gender.

866
00:29:03.190 –> 00:29:04.869
– I think we’re seeing I mean, there’s all

867
00:29:04.869 –> 00:29:06.470
– these people who are so mad about the

868
00:29:06.470 –> 00:29:08.244
– polls. And I actually really, I know a

869
00:29:08.244 –> 00:29:09.605
– lot of people are up in arms with

870
00:29:09.605 –> 00:29:11.204
– it. I like it because I think we’re

871
00:29:11.204 –> 00:29:12.184
– asking very

872
00:29:12.565 –> 00:29:15.444
– important questions, which was, hey, who decided that

873
00:29:15.444 –> 00:29:17.125
– these were the two polls and you had

874
00:29:17.125 –> 00:29:18.884
– to pick? And I do think that’s an

875
00:29:18.884 –> 00:29:20.940
– important question because I don’t think you have

876
00:29:21.019 –> 00:29:23.019
– to be one thing or another. I think

877
00:29:23.019 –> 00:29:24.779
– you are what you are. But the question

878
00:29:24.779 –> 00:29:26.940
– now is, Don, what’s that mean? What’s that

879
00:29:26.940 –> 00:29:28.539
– mean for a man in recovery? What’s that

880
00:29:28.539 –> 00:29:30.859
– mean for somebody who’s trying to sort out

881
00:29:30.859 –> 00:29:32.940
– what’s true and what’s not? What to believe

882
00:29:32.940 –> 00:29:34.460
– and what not to believe? It’s a bit

883
00:29:34.460 –> 00:29:36.984
– frightening, isn’t it? It is. Well, right now,

884
00:29:36.984 –> 00:29:38.345
– we’re in a bit of a chaotic time

885
00:29:38.345 –> 00:29:39.865
– societally. I like to look at it as

886
00:29:39.865 –> 00:29:41.384
– growing pains. I think what we’re going through

887
00:29:41.384 –> 00:29:43.484
– right now is tremendous growing pains.

888
00:29:43.865 –> 00:29:45.704
– But the best way I could describe it,

889
00:29:45.704 –> 00:29:47.144
– and I’m trying to I’m doing a little

890
00:29:47.144 –> 00:29:48.585
– bit of writing about this right called the

891
00:29:48.585 –> 00:29:49.325
– third way,

892
00:29:49.750 –> 00:29:51.509
– But it’s that, you know, when you take

893
00:29:51.509 –> 00:29:52.970
– two things that are that seem

894
00:29:53.269 –> 00:29:53.849
– like opposites

895
00:29:54.230 –> 00:29:56.809
– and you hold them together in creative tension,

896
00:29:57.429 –> 00:29:59.750
– a wiser way emerges. Right? We see it

897
00:29:59.750 –> 00:30:01.750
– in psychology between the head and the heart.

898
00:30:01.750 –> 00:30:03.474
– Right? If obviously, we need our rational brain.

899
00:30:03.474 –> 00:30:04.674
– Like, I like, you you need to use

900
00:30:04.674 –> 00:30:06.275
– your brain to design the brake systems on

901
00:30:06.275 –> 00:30:07.875
– a car or to do surgery and so

902
00:30:07.875 –> 00:30:09.875
– forth. Right? But then there’s also, like, matters

903
00:30:09.875 –> 00:30:11.474
– of the heart. Well, the third way would

904
00:30:11.474 –> 00:30:13.315
– be taking head and heart and kinda bringing

905
00:30:13.315 –> 00:30:15.519
– them together to a third way. Liberal and

906
00:30:15.519 –> 00:30:18.400
– conservative politics. Right? Conserve more conservative politics are

907
00:30:18.400 –> 00:30:22.000
– about boundaries, order, control. Liberal politics are about

908
00:30:22.000 –> 00:30:22.500
– compassion,

909
00:30:22.799 –> 00:30:26.000
– openness, curiosity. Right? Probably, if you can hold

910
00:30:26.000 –> 00:30:27.859
– those two together in creative tension,

911
00:30:28.164 –> 00:30:30.884
– some greater wisdom will emerge. Masculine and feminine

912
00:30:30.884 –> 00:30:31.384
– energies,

913
00:30:31.845 –> 00:30:34.244
– same deal. Right? Hold them in creative tension.

914
00:30:34.244 –> 00:30:36.664
– So these different religious and nonreligious,

915
00:30:37.285 –> 00:30:39.045
– the religious people probably need to learn from

916
00:30:39.045 –> 00:30:41.089
– the nonreligious people quite a bit. And the

917
00:30:41.089 –> 00:30:43.250
– nonreligious people, before they throw it all out,

918
00:30:43.250 –> 00:30:45.170
– they might actually try to, like, understand what’s

919
00:30:45.170 –> 00:30:46.690
– going on with the religious people. And if

920
00:30:46.690 –> 00:30:48.529
– we can hold those together in a creative

921
00:30:48.529 –> 00:30:49.029
– tension,

922
00:30:49.490 –> 00:30:51.730
– that’s where some more wisdom emerges. It’s a

923
00:30:51.730 –> 00:30:53.330
– bit of eastern thought, but when you apply

924
00:30:53.330 –> 00:30:55.335
– eastern thought to some of these western ideas,

925
00:30:55.494 –> 00:30:57.674
– together Eastern and Western can create

926
00:30:57.974 –> 00:30:59.115
– some third way thinking.

927
00:30:59.494 –> 00:31:01.015
– But that would be the best answer I

928
00:31:01.015 –> 00:31:02.855
– could give you to it, Roland. And heck,

929
00:31:02.855 –> 00:31:04.615
– man, we’re all in this together. I’m exploring

930
00:31:04.615 –> 00:31:06.615
– it and trying to understand it myself and

931
00:31:06.615 –> 00:31:08.660
– with my clients. Well, and irony I think

932
00:31:08.660 –> 00:31:10.819
– too when you say Eastern and Western, it’s

933
00:31:10.819 –> 00:31:13.720
– so funny because as somebody who really fights

934
00:31:13.779 –> 00:31:17.319
– really hard to believe nothing too rigidly,

935
00:31:17.859 –> 00:31:19.059
– when I look in the East and the

936
00:31:19.059 –> 00:31:21.414
– West, yes I hear different perspectives. But you

937
00:31:21.414 –> 00:31:23.335
– know what? I hear two people chasing the

938
00:31:23.335 –> 00:31:25.275
– same thing. When I see Democrats, Republicans,

939
00:31:25.654 –> 00:31:27.015
– a lot of people would so disagree with

940
00:31:27.015 –> 00:31:28.134
– what I’m about to say. But you know

941
00:31:28.134 –> 00:31:29.575
– what I see? People who are trying to

942
00:31:29.575 –> 00:31:32.055
– create the best country with the highest percentage

943
00:31:32.055 –> 00:31:34.710
– of free, happy people. Now every other side

944
00:31:34.710 –> 00:31:35.750
– is gonna say that the other side is

945
00:31:35.750 –> 00:31:37.750
– not doing that. But that’s the irony is,

946
00:31:37.750 –> 00:31:39.269
– you talk to conservatives, they’re like, oh, you’re

947
00:31:39.269 –> 00:31:41.190
– trying to destroy this place and make it

948
00:31:41.190 –> 00:31:42.789
– impossible. You talk to the liberals, they’re gonna

949
00:31:42.789 –> 00:31:44.150
– say, oh, you’re trying to destroy this place

950
00:31:44.150 –> 00:31:45.910
– and make it impossible. That’s right. I think

951
00:31:45.910 –> 00:31:47.910
– the the point is, what I have learned

952
00:31:47.910 –> 00:31:49.505
– from being a truth seeker

953
00:31:49.884 –> 00:31:51.724
– and trying to figure out what actually is

954
00:31:51.724 –> 00:31:53.484
– going on, what actually to believe, who to

955
00:31:53.484 –> 00:31:53.984
– become,

956
00:31:54.285 –> 00:31:56.365
– not only have I become sober, made better

957
00:31:56.365 –> 00:31:59.404
– decisions, treated myself, my wife, and everyone around

958
00:31:59.404 –> 00:32:02.039
– me better, but I see no benefit to

959
00:32:02.039 –> 00:32:04.279
– holding any belief in a rigid way. All

960
00:32:04.279 –> 00:32:06.119
– it has ever done, Don, has caused me

961
00:32:06.119 –> 00:32:07.500
– pain and suffering

962
00:32:07.799 –> 00:32:09.960
– because I am either spending my time trying

963
00:32:09.960 –> 00:32:13.160
– to defend something or attack something, and what

964
00:32:13.160 –> 00:32:13.900
– a waste.

965
00:32:14.865 –> 00:32:17.365
– Man, well said Roland. You’re on it, man.

966
00:32:17.505 –> 00:32:19.585
– And I know you’re wrestling with different things

967
00:32:19.585 –> 00:32:21.184
– right now like we all are and everything

968
00:32:21.184 –> 00:32:23.845
– like that. Life involves some suffering, but your

969
00:32:23.904 –> 00:32:26.085
– lens and your compass are clear.

970
00:32:26.529 –> 00:32:28.849
– Right? As you’re navigating whatever you’re doing with

971
00:32:28.849 –> 00:32:30.930
– your program and helping these other guys and

972
00:32:30.930 –> 00:32:33.490
– everything like that, stay your course, man. Yeah.

973
00:32:33.490 –> 00:32:35.829
– I hope everybody’s hearing that advice. Like,

974
00:32:36.609 –> 00:32:38.630
– don’t let people tell you

975
00:32:39.075 –> 00:32:39.974
– what you are.

976
00:32:40.434 –> 00:32:42.454
– Don’t let them tell you what your addiction

977
00:32:42.515 –> 00:32:45.394
– is. Use their expertise to help figure out,

978
00:32:45.394 –> 00:32:47.394
– I wonder what I’m pursuing. But don’t let

979
00:32:47.394 –> 00:32:49.634
– anyone tell you what you’re doing, why you

980
00:32:49.634 –> 00:32:52.034
– did it. That’s not their position. They haven’t

981
00:32:52.034 –> 00:32:53.869
– been you. Right? And so I think that’s

982
00:32:53.869 –> 00:32:55.549
– why I think the relapse rate is so

983
00:32:55.549 –> 00:32:58.669
– high is we gotta be careful blindly just

984
00:32:58.669 –> 00:33:00.669
– thinking that this is what my problem is,

985
00:33:00.669 –> 00:33:02.269
– and this is what I need to do.

986
00:33:02.269 –> 00:33:04.029
– No. Your problem is what your problem is,

987
00:33:04.029 –> 00:33:05.230
– and you need to do what you need

988
00:33:05.230 –> 00:33:06.805
– to do to fix that problem. And I

989
00:33:06.805 –> 00:33:09.365
– think if you’re not advocating for yourself and

990
00:33:09.365 –> 00:33:10.805
– really being curious to figure out what that

991
00:33:10.805 –> 00:33:13.045
– is, and you’re just blindly listening to somebody

992
00:33:13.045 –> 00:33:14.884
– who is pathologizing you and telling you the

993
00:33:14.884 –> 00:33:17.125
– way, I do think you’ll recover to a

994
00:33:17.125 –> 00:33:18.965
– degree. But I do think there’ll be a

995
00:33:18.965 –> 00:33:21.000
– lot of voids that will have been unmissed.

996
00:33:21.059 –> 00:33:22.500
– And I do think if those voids aren’t

997
00:33:22.500 –> 00:33:24.179
– addressed, I do think you’ll find yourself making

998
00:33:24.179 –> 00:33:25.960
– some of those similar decisions in the future.

999
00:33:26.500 –> 00:33:29.140
– I agree. And my advice to anybody, just

1000
00:33:29.140 –> 00:33:31.700
– to echo what you said, was never betray

1001
00:33:31.700 –> 00:33:32.200
– yourself.

1002
00:33:32.545 –> 00:33:33.924
– Yeah. Trust yourself

1003
00:33:34.545 –> 00:33:36.005
– at deeper levels. And sometimes

1004
00:33:36.464 –> 00:33:37.984
– people can say, especially if you’ve been somebody

1005
00:33:37.984 –> 00:33:39.105
– who’s made a lot of mistakes, say, well,

1006
00:33:39.105 –> 00:33:40.704
– I’m not trustworthy. Look at this data. Look

1007
00:33:40.704 –> 00:33:42.464
– at this data. When I say trust yourself,

1008
00:33:42.464 –> 00:33:44.244
– I mean deeply trust yourself.

1009
00:33:44.545 –> 00:33:46.085
– Anybody can give you feedback,

1010
00:33:46.500 –> 00:33:48.279
– but you gotta take it like a smorgasbord,

1011
00:33:48.500 –> 00:33:51.220
– man. Choose some, leave some. It’s all bubblegum.

1012
00:33:51.220 –> 00:33:53.079
– Choose some, and be aware that your pathology

1013
00:33:53.380 –> 00:33:55.460
– can tell you lies. So again, it’s I

1014
00:33:55.460 –> 00:33:57.940
– understand what Don’s saying sounds easy. It’s not

1015
00:33:57.940 –> 00:34:01.205
– easy because if you have a superiority complex,

1016
00:34:01.345 –> 00:34:04.305
– there are gonna be times where your true

1017
00:34:04.305 –> 00:34:06.705
– self is actually not talking. So that’s the

1018
00:34:06.705 –> 00:34:09.025
– other hard thing is be open to the

1019
00:34:09.025 –> 00:34:11.425
– suggestions that your helpers are telling you about

1020
00:34:11.425 –> 00:34:14.440
– things that may have some pathological thinking. So

1021
00:34:14.440 –> 00:34:15.880
– it’s not black and white, but that’s my

1022
00:34:15.880 –> 00:34:17.480
– point of saying this is what was this

1023
00:34:17.480 –> 00:34:19.659
– whole podcast about? How gray

1024
00:34:20.119 –> 00:34:23.000
– everything really is and how embracing the gray

1025
00:34:23.000 –> 00:34:25.099
– is actually how you find healing.

1026
00:34:25.480 –> 00:34:27.640
– It’s the rigidity and the polarization that I

1027
00:34:27.640 –> 00:34:29.625
– think just kinda keeps us in this trap.

1028
00:34:29.704 –> 00:34:31.224
– So Don, lastly, before you go, how can

1029
00:34:31.224 –> 00:34:33.224
– somebody find you? Where are you licensed? How

1030
00:34:33.224 –> 00:34:34.905
– do you work with people? Give us that

1031
00:34:34.905 –> 00:34:35.405
– information.

1032
00:34:35.704 –> 00:34:37.465
– So I oversee a private practice near Ann

1033
00:34:37.465 –> 00:34:38.364
– Arbor, Michigan.

1034
00:34:38.905 –> 00:34:41.385
– So that’s what I do professionally. I’ve been

1035
00:34:41.385 –> 00:34:43.545
– putting Instagram posts out there just for young

1036
00:34:43.545 –> 00:34:45.224
– athletes thing, you know, because I just feel

1037
00:34:45.224 –> 00:34:47.519
– like there’s a lot of negative influence. I

1038
00:34:47.519 –> 00:34:49.760
– I don’t I sometimes have a frustrating relationship

1039
00:34:49.760 –> 00:34:50.800
– with my field. I see a lot of

1040
00:34:50.880 –> 00:34:52.480
– there’s some things in therapy that are being

1041
00:34:52.480 –> 00:34:53.680
– said out there that I just don’t agree

1042
00:34:53.680 –> 00:34:55.920
– with. And so putting out some posts on

1043
00:34:55.920 –> 00:34:58.320
– Instagram to try to put positive messages out

1044
00:34:58.320 –> 00:35:00.534
– there for young people, young athletes. Our website,

1045
00:35:00.534 –> 00:35:02.614
– we’re integrative psychology of Ann Arbor, if anybody

1046
00:35:02.614 –> 00:35:04.375
– wants to check us out. So so much

1047
00:35:04.375 –> 00:35:06.215
– respect for the work you’re doing, Roland. Just

1048
00:35:06.215 –> 00:35:08.295
– stay the course, man. And, it’s been a

1049
00:35:08.454 –> 00:35:10.054
– I really appreciate you having me on. It’s

1050
00:35:10.054 –> 00:35:11.815
– a privilege. Thank you so much for the

1051
00:35:11.815 –> 00:35:13.889
– help that you’ve given one of my clients

1052
00:35:13.889 –> 00:35:15.409
– who’s really just benefiting so much from your

1053
00:35:15.409 –> 00:35:17.510
– program. Yeah. Thanks, Selman. I appreciate it.

1054
00:35:18.690 –> 00:35:20.929
– Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1055
00:35:20.929 –> 00:35:22.609
– are a high achiever of the sex addiction

1056
00:35:22.609 –> 00:35:24.369
– and you’re looking for a recovery group full

1057
00:35:24.369 –> 00:35:27.494
– of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1058
00:35:27.494 –> 00:35:30.375
– We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1059
00:35:30.375 –> 00:35:31.594
– using four day retreats,

1060
00:35:31.974 –> 00:35:34.714
– weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1061
00:35:34.775 –> 00:35:36.934
– If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1062
00:35:36.934 –> 00:35:38.869
– save your marriage, go to our website and

1063
00:35:38.869 –> 00:35:41.190
– fill out an application. If you enjoyed this

1064
00:35:41.190 –> 00:35:43.430
– episode, please pass it along to a friend

1065
00:35:43.430 –> 00:35:45.349
– in recovery who would benefit from listening. It

1066
00:35:45.349 –> 00:35:47.190
– is my mission to get this information out

1067
00:35:47.190 –> 00:35:49.590
– to as many high achievers as possible, and

1068
00:35:49.590 –> 00:35:51.210
– I can’t do it without your help.1