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I believe that men who have at one

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point been terrible husbands, you know, manipulative,

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deceptive,

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and betraying,

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can

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become so invested

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in

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honesty,

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integrity,

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and essentially

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being who it is that is their best

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version of self,

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that they become better partners than anyone out

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there because of that intentionality,

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because of the stead

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focus on correcting these areas

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of either

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deficit, like, they weren't taught appropriately, it wasn't

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modeled for them or nurtured in them, or

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they've just made very entitled decisions, self serving,

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self protective decisions.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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high achiever.

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I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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more information about joining our group or attending

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our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now, enjoy the rest of the episode.

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There's this stuck place that a lot of

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couples arrive at when they're healing from sexual

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betrayal. The crisis phase, it's pretty well mapped

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out. Right? There's disclosure process. There's this impact

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letter, letter of restitution. Right? There's kind of

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this sequence of events that almost every couple

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goes through to some variation.

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But after you make it through the crisis

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phase, when you start to rebuild, repair, this

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is where things start to become different from

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couple to couple. And a lot of this

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is because no couple is the same. And

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in this episode, I'm joined by Hope Ray.

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Hope is a genius. For those of you

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who have not been to her YouTube channel,

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she is so brilliant in this space. So

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much great ideas, a great approach to managing

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both, yes, sex addiction, but also for healing

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marriages. And Hope and I talk about how

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to navigate this stuck place, right? What's going

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on in this dynamic and what do you

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need to do as a couple to make

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it through to the other side?

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So Hope, we're going to talk about a

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hot topic. It's probably the bulk of what

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most of my listeners are dealing with, which

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is that stuck place.

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My audience, you know, being high achievers, they

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typically marry women who have kind of similar

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go getter ness to them. I would say

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both the husband and wife, you know, settling

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for mediocre

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is not something either of them are interested

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in, right? So they're listening to a ton

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of podcasts, they're listening to the books, they're

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doing the workbooks,

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they've been to intensives.

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But to your point, I mean, doing all

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the things sometimes isn't enough. I mean, when

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you're looking at a problem so dynamic and

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as unique as this one, there's a lot

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of factors at play. So I'm really curious.

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Can you give us an overview

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just of so this the stuck couple comes

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to see you or the the or the

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guy primarily, right? Give us an overview of

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how you attack the stuckness. What's different about

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your approach?

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That's a great question.

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Well, anyway, I'm glad to be here, Roland,

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and I appreciate you and your generous introduction

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to me and the work you're doing. So

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I think most of the time,

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men find my program

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because they've heard about it somewhere or their

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wife has heard about it somewhere.

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And the truth is that

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there's enough basic trust going on in the

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relationship, but it's not worth all this hard

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work, all this heartbreak, all this pain that

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the couple's been through trying to rebuild something

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better.

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And most of these men in this more

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advanced state of recovery, you know, they've been

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doing a good job. They're not betraying their

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partners. They're maintaining honesty, and they are walking

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in integrity.

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But it's not moving the needle. You know?

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The trust, like, remains at this kind of

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basic level.

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And these men are frustrated because they're well

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intended,

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and they're looking at me saying,

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tell me what I need to do and

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I'll do it. It's just that everything I

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try to do seems to back fire, seems

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to either maybe be held against me or

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not be the right thing.

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And so what I work with them on

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is that performance mode. Because this is old

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programming. This is part of where a kind

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of process addiction often develops is the need

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to be someone

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that isn't necessarily totally true to who you

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are, doesn't have a full range of emotional

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Mhmm. Experience that they're allowed to show in

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front of other people. I think most men

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are really socialized in modern culture to go

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off into the wilderness on their own, figure

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it out, come back all fixed up and

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keep going. And so there's this need to

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find themselves. It's interesting. I always tell them,

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you're, you know, sexually

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coping

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somehow,

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and you get caught and you get in

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trouble for it. And the reason you were

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doing that is because it helped trump the

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anxiety or it helped you feel alive to

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some degree or whatever reason you latched and

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attached to those behaviors, once you get caught

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for it, now you're in crisis mode. And

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so you're going into repair work and therapy

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work and trying to stabilize crisis. But where

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along the way do you actually find the

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thing

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that brings contentment, that brings fulfillment?

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And so I believe that work is done

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by facing oneself, and I think that's where

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we can find deeper meaning, purpose. And most

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of the guys that I'm working with have

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kind of arrived to that point. They just

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don't necessarily know how to dig into it.

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Yeah. We we we serve the same population.

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I call it burning the wick at both

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ends. I think, you know, you can't just

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burn the wick at the undoing what screwed

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you up end because there's always a plateau.

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There's always a plateau. And the way I

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articulated is we're not here

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to recover. We're here to be us. And

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so I think you can only recover so

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much and then there's this, but what for?

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Like, so I'm getting good for what? I'm

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recovering

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what was lost. And then when I get

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there, I found what was lost and what.

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Right? And I think if you don't answer

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that question,

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I believe

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as humans, we are here to do that.

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We're not here to undo what was done

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to us and the things that screwed us

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up. We're here to actually be us. And

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so I do think,

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to me, there is a balance of burning

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the wick at both ends. I think if

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you just burn the wick at one, it's

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not enough. I think you have to figure

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out what you learned that's backfiring

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and slowing you down or causing issues. But

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I do also think you need to figure

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out why is somebody like me here? What

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are my unique abilities? What are they designed

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to do? Who do they help? And then

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you start to now, to me at least

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with my own recovery, you know, when you

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see

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what your

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flaws, for lack of a better word, are

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holding you back from, I want them out

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of my life

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so I can be more me. Whereas before,

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it's like I'm getting them out of my

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life really because my therapist and wife and

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the psychology books are telling me to get

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out of my life. And I just don't

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Like I said, I don't think we're here

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to recover. We're here to be us. So

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I think when we tap into what being

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us looks like that, you know, it opens

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up this,

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Oh, it's not recovery anymore. It's in our

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group, we call it self mastery. I mean,

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Oh, I'm going to master self. Right? Whereas

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recovery comes with it. There's a finish line.

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There's an undoing. I don't know. It's not

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as, it's not as exciting to undo

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to get to a finish line that, you

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know, I never really, you know, I never

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wanted to recover from this expedition. That wasn't

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my out that wasn't my life's goal. Right?

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So it's like when I find out what

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these flaws are holding me back from and

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the person I could be, that kind of

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kicks it into a higher notch. So I

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think you and I have a similar approach.

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Before we kinda dive into the ins and

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outs of that, what do you do? So

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if they're gonna tap into more of them,

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can you just give us a high level

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overview of what that looks like? How do

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you do that with these men? Yeah. Well,

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I've noticed you ask good questions, the kind

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that are really existential, like, what are we

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doing all this for? And you're right, because

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a lot of times recovery itself is a

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box that's being checked because someone got caught.

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It may not have ever been of interest

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to get into recovery until being caught. Right?

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And it shouldn't remain the focus. In other

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words, it should be carried out. The gains

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and recovery

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treasures that you find in that process should

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kind of be what moves you then into

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living at your potential. Mhmm. So what I

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do to help them figure that out is,

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you know, essentially ask, what are the complaints

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that my wife has,

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and how am I resisting those things?

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What are things I'm avoiding? Mhmm. And then

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I also provide, you know, some templates and

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and metrics for things to look for, for

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territory to excavate because sometimes people are pretty

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lost, you know? And the truth is that

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I believe that men who

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have at one point been terrible husbands, you

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know, manipulative,

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deceptive,

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and betraying,

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can

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become so invested

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in honesty,

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integrity,

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and essentially

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being who it is that is their best

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version of self,

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that they become better partners than anyone out

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there because of that intentionality,

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because of the

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steadfast

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focus on

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correcting

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these areas of either deficit, like they weren't

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taught appropriately, it wasn't modeled for them or

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nurtured in them, or they've just made very

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entitled decisions, self serving, self protective decisions. I

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tend to see most of this stuff

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old. Like, it comes on board for certain

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reasons that may actually be helpful early on,

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but it outlives its value, especially when they're

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in an altruistic peer relationship with a partner

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that they're willing to lay their life down

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even though they're not doing that.

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So we begin by asking some of those

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tough questions, the ones that we can't be

269
00:09:24,514 --> 00:09:26,195
afraid of. Like, what is the point of

270
00:09:26,195 --> 00:09:29,795
existence? And while I'm not meandering through that

271
00:09:29,795 --> 00:09:31,715
with all of my clients or all the

272
00:09:31,715 --> 00:09:33,795
members in my program because everyone kinda comes

273
00:09:33,795 --> 00:09:36,570
from different backgrounds and religious upbringings and Mhmm.

274
00:09:36,730 --> 00:09:39,129
Faiths and things. I'm posing it to them

275
00:09:39,129 --> 00:09:40,970
for their work, their individual work with their

276
00:09:40,970 --> 00:09:42,509
therapists and their workbooks.

277
00:09:43,129 --> 00:09:43,870
They are

278
00:09:44,330 --> 00:09:44,830
really

279
00:09:45,289 --> 00:09:45,789
examining

280
00:09:46,169 --> 00:09:47,929
what is the purpose of waking up in

281
00:09:47,929 --> 00:09:50,375
the morning and doing things right. And am

282
00:09:50,375 --> 00:09:52,214
I too stoic? Do I think things are

283
00:09:52,214 --> 00:09:54,554
meaningless? Mhmm. I'm not making progress,

284
00:09:54,934 --> 00:09:56,774
and I feel like I should be earning

285
00:09:56,774 --> 00:09:59,654
more softness from my wife or more kindness

286
00:09:59,654 --> 00:10:01,815
or even just basic respect from her given

287
00:10:01,815 --> 00:10:03,470
all my newfound trustworthiness

288
00:10:03,769 --> 00:10:06,090
and and good positive attitude. Mhmm. But it's

289
00:10:06,090 --> 00:10:08,009
still not rendering any good outputs, and so

290
00:10:08,009 --> 00:10:09,769
I'm frustrated, and I'm wondering if I need

291
00:10:09,769 --> 00:10:11,450
to boundary up with her. And so we're

292
00:10:11,450 --> 00:10:13,870
sorting through a lot of that confusion and

293
00:10:14,090 --> 00:10:16,250
charting a path toward wholeness there is really

294
00:10:16,250 --> 00:10:16,750
meaningful.

295
00:10:17,245 --> 00:10:19,725
Mhmm. I find, to me, when I got

296
00:10:19,725 --> 00:10:22,064
into recovery, what I found was

297
00:10:22,444 --> 00:10:22,944
interesting.

298
00:10:23,324 --> 00:10:24,464
Most of the psychological

299
00:10:25,004 --> 00:10:26,225
work I have done

300
00:10:26,605 --> 00:10:28,464
has revolved around

301
00:10:29,019 --> 00:10:30,779
what do we know about why humans are

302
00:10:30,779 --> 00:10:32,139
here? What do we know about why humans

303
00:10:32,139 --> 00:10:34,059
operate? What I found a bit frustrating with

304
00:10:34,059 --> 00:10:37,500
recovery was there was this emphasis on, I

305
00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:39,759
don't know, manmade stuff, like manmade

306
00:10:40,139 --> 00:10:40,639
ideals,

307
00:10:41,195 --> 00:10:41,695
manmade

308
00:10:42,075 --> 00:10:44,315
expectations, you know, a lot of just, Hey,

309
00:10:44,315 --> 00:10:46,875
this is how we've decided the, you know,

310
00:10:46,875 --> 00:10:47,375
culturally

311
00:10:47,754 --> 00:10:49,995
And what I find is your body doesn't

312
00:10:49,995 --> 00:10:51,134
care about manmade

313
00:10:51,595 --> 00:10:54,075
concepts. Your body cares about what your body

314
00:10:54,075 --> 00:10:56,230
cares about. And so to me, when you

315
00:10:56,230 --> 00:10:58,790
take this different approach around, Hey, let's just

316
00:10:58,790 --> 00:10:59,529
focus on

317
00:11:00,070 --> 00:11:02,309
being you and why you're here. And what

318
00:11:02,309 --> 00:11:04,230
I find is it's actually not that hard

319
00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:06,149
to comply with a lot of the ideals

320
00:11:06,149 --> 00:11:07,910
that we've set up in this country is

321
00:11:07,910 --> 00:11:09,269
a lot of them are rooted in a

322
00:11:09,269 --> 00:11:12,294
good place. Not looking at pornography is actually

323
00:11:12,294 --> 00:11:12,794
something

324
00:11:13,254 --> 00:11:15,815
that's just healthy. I mean, just objectifying a

325
00:11:15,815 --> 00:11:18,134
person's just not a, just not a healthy

326
00:11:18,134 --> 00:11:20,375
habit. And I think when we start really

327
00:11:20,375 --> 00:11:23,450
honoring what our bodies really care about, you

328
00:11:23,450 --> 00:11:25,850
start to treat people better. I've justI've found,

329
00:11:25,850 --> 00:11:27,929
you know, rather than like focusing on the

330
00:11:27,929 --> 00:11:29,690
ideals, it's hard to get excited about that.

331
00:11:29,690 --> 00:11:31,929
But when you really try to talk about

332
00:11:31,929 --> 00:11:34,669
showing up in this really meaningful, awesome way,

333
00:11:35,049 --> 00:11:38,169
you just naturally start honoring the humanity in

334
00:11:38,169 --> 00:11:39,745
others. You know, I think to me, the

335
00:11:39,745 --> 00:11:41,024
thing that I've noticed with a lot of

336
00:11:41,024 --> 00:11:43,845
this for at least our population is dehumanization.

337
00:11:44,384 --> 00:11:47,284
In order to put yourself through the capitalistic

338
00:11:47,504 --> 00:11:49,684
grind, you really need to turn yourself into

339
00:11:50,225 --> 00:11:53,044
a production machine. And when you dehumanize yourself,

340
00:11:53,629 --> 00:11:55,789
the problem is it's global now. If that

341
00:11:55,789 --> 00:11:58,269
is the new objective and that's appropriate, now

342
00:11:58,269 --> 00:12:00,669
it opens the door to dehumanizing others. And

343
00:12:00,669 --> 00:12:02,029
then, you know, the longer you stay on

344
00:12:02,029 --> 00:12:04,350
that road, sometimes that bleeds outside of work

345
00:12:04,350 --> 00:12:05,809
and starts paid sex.

346
00:12:06,144 --> 00:12:07,584
That's really what, if we look at really

347
00:12:07,584 --> 00:12:09,264
the core of all of this is, you

348
00:12:09,264 --> 00:12:10,004
know, the objectification

349
00:12:10,625 --> 00:12:12,225
of a woman or paying a woman to

350
00:12:12,225 --> 00:12:14,625
service you in some way, or even courting

351
00:12:14,625 --> 00:12:16,784
a woman with the purpose of just using

352
00:12:16,784 --> 00:12:18,625
them sexually and then discarding them when you're

353
00:12:18,625 --> 00:12:20,325
done. You know, all of that's a dehumanization

354
00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:22,309
practice. I think, again, that, you know, the

355
00:12:22,309 --> 00:12:24,309
antidote to all of it is just tapping

356
00:12:24,309 --> 00:12:26,309
into your own humanity. I I really believe

357
00:12:26,309 --> 00:12:27,990
that. I think it's one of our strongest

358
00:12:27,990 --> 00:12:30,549
desires as a human. And I I think

359
00:12:30,549 --> 00:12:33,289
that's why it's so central to wellness

360
00:12:33,914 --> 00:12:36,154
because technically, there are no rules. You're right.

361
00:12:36,154 --> 00:12:38,014
Everything's kind of a manmade structure.

362
00:12:38,394 --> 00:12:41,034
Even the term recovery or any kind of

363
00:12:41,034 --> 00:12:42,975
diagnosis is a manmade

364
00:12:43,434 --> 00:12:46,575
cluster of symptoms observed through patterns and time.

365
00:12:46,839 --> 00:12:48,759
And so you can buy into all that

366
00:12:48,759 --> 00:12:51,240
because it's useful, but you don't necessarily need

367
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,120
to surrender wholly to the ideas that you

368
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:55,179
fit into a box.

369
00:12:55,639 --> 00:12:57,720
But then you're left with the idea that,

370
00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,500
okay, so then who makes the rules?

371
00:12:59,825 --> 00:13:01,845
And if you are gonna make the rules,

372
00:13:02,065 --> 00:13:04,544
then you better do so knowing and being

373
00:13:04,544 --> 00:13:06,705
very confident that you have, like you said,

374
00:13:06,705 --> 00:13:09,504
tapped into your humanity. Because otherwise, you're making

375
00:13:09,504 --> 00:13:12,085
rules from, say, problematic programming like

376
00:13:12,410 --> 00:13:14,990
narcissistic thinking or self protective thinking

377
00:13:15,370 --> 00:13:16,350
or, you know, grandiosity

378
00:13:16,730 --> 00:13:18,490
that just hasn't come out of you like

379
00:13:18,490 --> 00:13:20,250
it was meant to when you were little

380
00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:22,090
or so. You know? There's a lot of

381
00:13:22,090 --> 00:13:24,910
ways in which our past, our our trauma,

382
00:13:25,404 --> 00:13:27,325
the families we were raised in will have

383
00:13:27,325 --> 00:13:29,325
us kind of thinking through a certain lens.

384
00:13:29,325 --> 00:13:31,585
And the best way to examine that

385
00:13:31,964 --> 00:13:34,444
is to make sure you're deeply rooted in

386
00:13:34,605 --> 00:13:36,544
Mhmm. Your own human dignity

387
00:13:37,085 --> 00:13:38,225
and able to

388
00:13:38,524 --> 00:13:41,050
understand the human dignity of others. And this

389
00:13:41,050 --> 00:13:42,830
is where we all kind of find common

390
00:13:42,970 --> 00:13:44,889
rules. Not all of us, I suppose, but

391
00:13:44,889 --> 00:13:47,309
most of humanity finds kind of common

392
00:13:47,850 --> 00:13:51,450
framework for what is right as far as

393
00:13:51,450 --> 00:13:54,590
how it comes to treating people and respecting

394
00:13:55,174 --> 00:13:57,254
the rights of others. So I think it's

395
00:13:57,254 --> 00:13:59,574
neat because you're talking about, like, deconstructing down

396
00:13:59,574 --> 00:14:02,154
to, like, the bare bones and then reconstructing

397
00:14:02,214 --> 00:14:04,235
something that you can only for yourself.

398
00:14:04,694 --> 00:14:06,134
So what I find when we do this

399
00:14:06,134 --> 00:14:09,254
is there is a universal truth. Obviously, we

400
00:14:09,254 --> 00:14:10,875
all have kind of our different callings

401
00:14:11,230 --> 00:14:13,309
as individuals, but I do agree with you.

402
00:14:13,309 --> 00:14:15,309
I think when we strip away anything was

403
00:14:15,309 --> 00:14:17,789
made by man, we have everything in common.

404
00:14:17,789 --> 00:14:19,309
I found that time and time and time

405
00:14:19,309 --> 00:14:20,910
and time again. And so it's a huge

406
00:14:20,910 --> 00:14:23,070
emphasis of where I try to get guys

407
00:14:23,070 --> 00:14:25,730
to think from a recovery self mastery standpoint

408
00:14:25,950 --> 00:14:27,165
is because I think if we all get

409
00:14:27,165 --> 00:14:28,845
our brains there, I just find it it's

410
00:14:28,845 --> 00:14:30,445
so much easier. You know, recovery is such

411
00:14:30,445 --> 00:14:31,105
a schlog

412
00:14:31,565 --> 00:14:33,884
when you're making it robotic. But when it's

413
00:14:33,884 --> 00:14:34,945
about self mastery,

414
00:14:35,565 --> 00:14:37,485
again, I just I have therapists ask me

415
00:14:37,485 --> 00:14:38,845
all the time, Roland, how do you get

416
00:14:38,845 --> 00:14:40,684
these outcomes? How do you get these really

417
00:14:40,684 --> 00:14:43,320
tough cases to crack? I go, I go,

418
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,399
you know, I really don't do that much.

419
00:14:45,399 --> 00:14:48,200
I just create an environment that's exciting for

420
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:49,960
them, something they wanna be a part of,

421
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,519
something that just it just feels right. And

422
00:14:52,519 --> 00:14:54,040
next thing you know, yeah, they they become

423
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,285
a different person and it's really I don't

424
00:14:56,285 --> 00:14:57,884
know. I don't think I do anything that

425
00:14:57,884 --> 00:14:59,884
spectacular. I think I just create an environment

426
00:14:59,884 --> 00:15:02,045
where they wanna be. And you don't see

427
00:15:02,045 --> 00:15:03,485
that a lot in recovery. For a lot

428
00:15:03,485 --> 00:15:04,845
of people, it is a burden. It's a

429
00:15:04,845 --> 00:15:06,764
nuisance. It's something they can't wait to get

430
00:15:06,764 --> 00:15:08,684
out of their life. These guys have, have

431
00:15:08,684 --> 00:15:10,925
the other problem. I think recovery becomes the

432
00:15:10,925 --> 00:15:12,740
most exciting part of their life and they

433
00:15:12,740 --> 00:15:15,220
have to fight to to care about work

434
00:15:15,220 --> 00:15:16,740
because they do. They just love, you know,

435
00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:18,659
self mastery is fun and it's something that

436
00:15:18,659 --> 00:15:20,179
you should look forward to be doing for

437
00:15:20,179 --> 00:15:21,539
the rest of your life. Not, you know,

438
00:15:21,539 --> 00:15:22,199
to me,

439
00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:23,939
I, I never wanna see a day where

440
00:15:23,939 --> 00:15:25,764
I'm taking my foot off the gas from

441
00:15:25,764 --> 00:15:27,924
becoming more me. You know, it's my favorite

442
00:15:27,924 --> 00:15:29,524
thing I do all day. But I want

443
00:15:29,524 --> 00:15:30,725
to hit on something before we go away

444
00:15:30,725 --> 00:15:33,304
from this topic, just for the listeners. So

445
00:15:33,365 --> 00:15:35,464
do a lot of these men exhibit narcissistic

446
00:15:36,004 --> 00:15:36,504
traits?

447
00:15:36,884 --> 00:15:38,245
Absolutely. And I don't think any of the

448
00:15:38,245 --> 00:15:40,149
guys in my groups would deny that. But

449
00:15:40,149 --> 00:15:41,509
I wanna, I just kinda wanna shine a

450
00:15:41,509 --> 00:15:42,870
little bit of a light on something for

451
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:45,269
everybody listening. There's this really neat book for

452
00:15:45,269 --> 00:15:47,589
those interested. It's called The Status Game. The

453
00:15:47,589 --> 00:15:49,110
author is a brilliant author, and it's a

454
00:15:49,110 --> 00:15:50,389
really fun, he's got a great voice for

455
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:51,509
those of you who wanna listen to it

456
00:15:51,509 --> 00:15:53,750
on Audible. But he talks about the role

457
00:15:53,750 --> 00:15:54,409
of status

458
00:15:55,004 --> 00:15:57,825
and how it's been arguably the strongest driver

459
00:15:57,884 --> 00:16:01,085
forever since humans have existed. Now, what status

460
00:16:01,085 --> 00:16:03,904
is, just so everybody understands is, it's traits

461
00:16:03,965 --> 00:16:04,465
essentially,

462
00:16:04,845 --> 00:16:08,045
or possessions or whatever, an image that our

463
00:16:08,045 --> 00:16:09,264
society has

464
00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:13,110
essentially latched onto as being an advantageous way

465
00:16:13,110 --> 00:16:14,870
of existing. And I would, you know, just

466
00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:16,309
as some defense for some of these men

467
00:16:16,309 --> 00:16:18,570
who have developed some of these narcissistic traits,

468
00:16:18,950 --> 00:16:21,029
I remember when I hear people who talk

469
00:16:21,029 --> 00:16:21,929
about narcissism,

470
00:16:22,625 --> 00:16:23,904
I read it and I'm just like, oh

471
00:16:23,904 --> 00:16:25,764
my gosh, I feel like I've been trained

472
00:16:26,144 --> 00:16:29,524
by the professional development and career development world

473
00:16:29,825 --> 00:16:30,884
to be narcissistic.

474
00:16:31,424 --> 00:16:32,945
Like really, you know, a lot of these

475
00:16:32,945 --> 00:16:34,899
traits as I see them, it's like, you

476
00:16:34,899 --> 00:16:37,240
know, I learned a lot. I became narcissistic.

477
00:16:38,019 --> 00:16:39,379
I was not. I used to be this

478
00:16:39,539 --> 00:16:41,220
I just used to be very different before

479
00:16:41,220 --> 00:16:43,860
capitalism kind of dug its claws into me.

480
00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:45,779
But, you know, we almost train men to

481
00:16:45,779 --> 00:16:48,179
do that because a lot of that comes

482
00:16:48,179 --> 00:16:49,480
off as this,

483
00:16:49,794 --> 00:16:51,154
you know, that status game book is really

484
00:16:51,154 --> 00:16:52,754
interesting to read because it cites a bunch

485
00:16:52,754 --> 00:16:55,254
of studies around men who develop these traits

486
00:16:55,394 --> 00:16:57,394
get ahead. And so again, when we think

487
00:16:57,394 --> 00:16:59,554
about humans and how we want to get

488
00:16:59,554 --> 00:17:02,134
our needs met, and so we want to

489
00:17:02,470 --> 00:17:05,609
fall into a status that we believe increases

490
00:17:05,670 --> 00:17:08,869
the statistical likelihood of us being chosen, having

491
00:17:08,869 --> 00:17:12,309
doors open, getting appreciated, admired, respected, all these

492
00:17:12,309 --> 00:17:15,335
things, invited to certain parties, and exclusive things,

493
00:17:15,335 --> 00:17:17,414
right? If that's advantageous for someone like you,

494
00:17:17,414 --> 00:17:19,335
which I think with high achieving men, their

495
00:17:19,335 --> 00:17:21,115
DNA, I think naturally gravitates

496
00:17:21,414 --> 00:17:23,575
towards those positions. Hey, if I have to

497
00:17:23,575 --> 00:17:25,575
be that to influence people, then I'm gonna

498
00:17:25,575 --> 00:17:27,015
go be that. And so I kind of

499
00:17:27,015 --> 00:17:29,190
wanna speak to, you know, I think kind

500
00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:30,650
of changing the script around,

501
00:17:31,269 --> 00:17:33,429
yes, you know, is it potentially disruptive and

502
00:17:33,429 --> 00:17:35,509
harmful to the relationship and recovery? Sure. I'm

503
00:17:35,509 --> 00:17:38,250
not denying that. I'm just trying to both

504
00:17:38,309 --> 00:17:39,589
show a little bit of grace for these

505
00:17:39,589 --> 00:17:41,429
guys. Like you're not a freak or a

506
00:17:41,429 --> 00:17:42,765
weirdo or a narcissist for

507
00:17:44,125 --> 00:17:44,622
for some of these things that you've latched

508
00:17:44,622 --> 00:17:46,865
onto. I think it's more so acknowledging that

509
00:17:47,085 --> 00:17:49,585
you arguably latched onto these for a strategic

510
00:17:49,644 --> 00:17:50,144
advantage.

511
00:17:50,445 --> 00:17:53,484
And they can interrupt your marriage and also

512
00:17:53,484 --> 00:17:54,845
lead you down a bunch of roads that

513
00:17:54,845 --> 00:17:56,765
you don't wanna lead down. So again, I'm

514
00:17:56,765 --> 00:17:58,224
a big supporter of,

515
00:17:58,570 --> 00:18:00,890
let's have some grace here as to where

516
00:18:00,890 --> 00:18:03,130
these men found themselves. Because we look at

517
00:18:03,130 --> 00:18:05,450
these guys like monsters, but I really see

518
00:18:05,450 --> 00:18:07,210
them as victims to be honest, Hope. I

519
00:18:07,210 --> 00:18:10,190
think the world has told them, get money,

520
00:18:10,330 --> 00:18:12,005
get rich, be perfect,

521
00:18:12,384 --> 00:18:14,865
and get laid with as many attractive women

522
00:18:14,865 --> 00:18:16,945
as possible, and make as many men envious

523
00:18:16,945 --> 00:18:18,464
of you as you can before your time

524
00:18:18,464 --> 00:18:20,545
is up. That's winning. And so, you know,

525
00:18:20,545 --> 00:18:24,144
that really promotes this narcissistic grandiose environment. And

526
00:18:24,144 --> 00:18:25,630
I just like to speak to that for

527
00:18:25,630 --> 00:18:27,150
everybody to understand, you know, I think a

528
00:18:27,150 --> 00:18:29,950
lot of men are duped into this being

529
00:18:29,950 --> 00:18:32,269
winning. And so I really I think they

530
00:18:32,269 --> 00:18:34,509
think they're winning at life and this recovery

531
00:18:34,509 --> 00:18:36,430
is really the first news they're hearing. And

532
00:18:36,430 --> 00:18:38,349
to be honest, to give them an additional

533
00:18:38,349 --> 00:18:39,089
more grace,

534
00:18:39,625 --> 00:18:41,304
I think the beginning of recovery is quite

535
00:18:41,304 --> 00:18:43,944
hard because it's like, I know y'all, my

536
00:18:43,944 --> 00:18:46,505
wife, my therapist, and they're telling me to

537
00:18:46,505 --> 00:18:47,944
change. But it's like I pick up my

538
00:18:47,944 --> 00:18:49,704
phone or I turn on the TV and

539
00:18:49,704 --> 00:18:51,065
it looks to me like my old way

540
00:18:51,065 --> 00:18:53,865
of doing things was spot on with who

541
00:18:53,865 --> 00:18:54,365
everybody's

542
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,359
idolizing and worshiping. So it is this little

543
00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,759
push pull of we got you people trying

544
00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:00,880
to tell me to be this other way,

545
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,059
but I got everyone on Instagram

546
00:19:03,679 --> 00:19:05,519
telling me that the way I was doing

547
00:19:05,519 --> 00:19:08,240
things was actually just fine. So before we

548
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,759
get off that topic, I just wanna speak

549
00:19:09,759 --> 00:19:11,054
to, know, I think a lot of these

550
00:19:11,054 --> 00:19:13,634
maladaptive traits were actually adopted

551
00:19:14,095 --> 00:19:15,075
with good intent.

552
00:19:15,534 --> 00:19:16,595
Mhmm. Absolutely.

553
00:19:17,294 --> 00:19:18,974
Yeah. I'd love to speak to that. Do

554
00:19:18,974 --> 00:19:21,615
you mind me kind of segueing into, a

555
00:19:21,615 --> 00:19:22,674
few thoughts? So,

556
00:19:23,210 --> 00:19:25,309
you know, first of all, the pop psychology

557
00:19:25,369 --> 00:19:26,589
understanding of narcissism

558
00:19:27,210 --> 00:19:28,109
needs refinement.

559
00:19:28,410 --> 00:19:30,410
It is not very clinical. And even the

560
00:19:30,410 --> 00:19:30,910
clinical

561
00:19:31,289 --> 00:19:34,490
criteria for narcissism, in my estimation, really need

562
00:19:34,490 --> 00:19:35,984
refinement as well. I know. I was just

563
00:19:35,984 --> 00:19:38,305
telling you before this, I fell into when

564
00:19:38,305 --> 00:19:40,545
I hear the clinical and the pop, I'm

565
00:19:40,545 --> 00:19:41,744
like, shoot. I I fall in

566
00:19:42,384 --> 00:19:44,704
I'm a narcissist by both people's definition. Yeah.

567
00:19:44,704 --> 00:19:46,065
But then I've had, like, guys, just tell

568
00:19:46,065 --> 00:19:48,565
me, no, Roland, you are absolutely not. So

569
00:19:48,679 --> 00:19:50,119
I agree with you. If you look at

570
00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,039
it and feel like I fall into it

571
00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:54,200
by every measure, but then have somebody who's

572
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,279
educated be like, oh, Roland, you're not you

573
00:19:56,279 --> 00:19:58,619
you have some narcissistic traits that you've developed

574
00:19:58,679 --> 00:20:00,599
because of your upbringing, but you're not a

575
00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:01,099
narcissist.

576
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,075
So to your point, I just wanted the

577
00:20:03,075 --> 00:20:04,674
listeners to hear that is, you know, it

578
00:20:04,674 --> 00:20:06,294
can be a little gut punch to

579
00:20:06,835 --> 00:20:08,914
have the world label me as such because

580
00:20:08,914 --> 00:20:10,434
that's it's just not fun. It's not fun

581
00:20:10,434 --> 00:20:12,194
having other people tell me what I am.

582
00:20:12,194 --> 00:20:15,315
Well, absolutely. And it's over expressed in pop

583
00:20:15,315 --> 00:20:16,615
psychology and misunderstood.

584
00:20:16,994 --> 00:20:20,679
So the clinical criteria would suggest that entitlement,

585
00:20:20,819 --> 00:20:21,319
grandiosity,

586
00:20:21,940 --> 00:20:25,220
and being able being comfortable to manipulate people

587
00:20:25,220 --> 00:20:27,960
for your own benefit is kinda how narcissism

588
00:20:28,099 --> 00:20:30,259
functions. But, really, the theme or the heart

589
00:20:30,259 --> 00:20:31,720
of that, in my estimation,

590
00:20:32,099 --> 00:20:33,575
could be best explained

591
00:20:34,034 --> 00:20:35,174
as narcissism

592
00:20:35,474 --> 00:20:38,454
is a lack of being able to understand

593
00:20:38,994 --> 00:20:41,714
anything from outside your own view. In other

594
00:20:41,714 --> 00:20:42,214
words,

595
00:20:42,515 --> 00:20:43,494
having difficulty

596
00:20:44,115 --> 00:20:46,355
being in another person's shoes, if you haven't

597
00:20:46,355 --> 00:20:49,319
lived that experience, it's hard to understand it

598
00:20:49,319 --> 00:20:50,779
or even give it much credence.

599
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,140
That's my take on, like, a true narcissist.

600
00:20:54,279 --> 00:20:55,259
They're meeting criteria

601
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,919
because they really can't see outside their own

602
00:20:58,919 --> 00:20:59,419
frame,

603
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,460
and that's what causes empathy to be troublesome

604
00:21:02,519 --> 00:21:05,015
for them. They can kinda perform empathy, but

605
00:21:05,015 --> 00:21:06,075
maybe not really

606
00:21:06,615 --> 00:21:09,414
understand why someone might have an opposite view

607
00:21:09,414 --> 00:21:11,894
or something like that. But what I do

608
00:21:11,894 --> 00:21:13,414
believe is that all the men that I've

609
00:21:13,414 --> 00:21:15,894
worked with over the past decade, they all

610
00:21:15,894 --> 00:21:18,075
show up with various forms of entitlement.

611
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:20,650
And you can't extract entitlement

612
00:21:21,029 --> 00:21:23,589
from secret sexual behavior. Mhmm. It's one thing

613
00:21:23,589 --> 00:21:26,329
if somebody's single and they're using porn or

614
00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:29,109
commercial sex or something like that. That may

615
00:21:29,109 --> 00:21:31,375
go against their morals. It may go against

616
00:21:31,375 --> 00:21:33,394
the norms of society. It may be problematic

617
00:21:33,454 --> 00:21:36,174
or unhealthy for them. But if it's not

618
00:21:36,174 --> 00:21:36,674
violating

619
00:21:37,134 --> 00:21:39,775
the fidelity code of a relationship, then the

620
00:21:39,775 --> 00:21:42,194
consequences are different for somebody who's single.

621
00:21:42,670 --> 00:21:45,390
When somebody is in a committed relationship, they're

622
00:21:45,390 --> 00:21:47,470
partnered with somebody or married to somebody, and

623
00:21:47,470 --> 00:21:49,250
they're secretly violating fidelity,

624
00:21:49,869 --> 00:21:51,390
you can't do that. You can't keep that

625
00:21:51,390 --> 00:21:54,690
a secret without entitlement. Entitlement, in my opinion,

626
00:21:54,910 --> 00:21:56,130
is not grandiosity

627
00:21:56,430 --> 00:21:58,434
where I think I'm better than others. It's

628
00:21:58,434 --> 00:22:01,575
more a fear of being squashed, having masculinity

629
00:22:01,875 --> 00:22:03,875
be reduced if I'm not treated a certain

630
00:22:03,875 --> 00:22:05,974
way or given a certain type of respect.

631
00:22:06,275 --> 00:22:08,755
If I can't manage the perceptions of people

632
00:22:08,755 --> 00:22:11,634
around me and maintain a certain look, then

633
00:22:11,634 --> 00:22:14,099
I'm less than. And so I teach men

634
00:22:14,099 --> 00:22:17,080
about anchoring in a stable sense of dignity.

635
00:22:17,380 --> 00:22:19,460
Because when you do that, you can anchor

636
00:22:19,460 --> 00:22:22,420
others in their stable sense of dignity. Nobody's

637
00:22:22,420 --> 00:22:24,420
better than the other. And the idea is

638
00:22:24,420 --> 00:22:26,865
that you can have actual empathy for both

639
00:22:27,025 --> 00:22:29,424
others, but also for yourself. You don't have

640
00:22:29,424 --> 00:22:30,865
to keep trying to prove things. Even if

641
00:22:30,865 --> 00:22:31,765
you're being mistreated,

642
00:22:32,304 --> 00:22:33,125
you can know

643
00:22:34,144 --> 00:22:35,285
that within yourself,

644
00:22:35,744 --> 00:22:38,244
you have worth value dignity

645
00:22:38,545 --> 00:22:40,384
that can't be squashed no matter how well

646
00:22:40,384 --> 00:22:41,525
someone likes you or

647
00:22:43,809 --> 00:22:46,529
And so in that effort, this is where

648
00:22:46,529 --> 00:22:49,329
men can become radically generous with their partners

649
00:22:49,329 --> 00:22:51,750
who are very angry with them. Mhmm. Because

650
00:22:51,890 --> 00:22:53,669
even if they are being disrespected

651
00:22:53,970 --> 00:22:56,289
or treated in a manner that feels very

652
00:22:56,289 --> 00:22:56,789
hurtful,

653
00:22:57,174 --> 00:22:58,855
The truth is they can say, you know,

654
00:22:58,855 --> 00:22:59,994
this doesn't reduce

655
00:23:00,695 --> 00:23:03,894
my dignity. My dignity is immutable. Mhmm. And

656
00:23:03,894 --> 00:23:06,375
that doesn't mean because I'm worth something that

657
00:23:06,375 --> 00:23:08,134
I don't deserve to be treated well. But

658
00:23:08,134 --> 00:23:10,210
if in this moment I'm not being, I

659
00:23:10,210 --> 00:23:11,190
don't need deservedness

660
00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:13,410
to steer my ship here. I'm not going

661
00:23:13,410 --> 00:23:15,250
to act out of entitlement. I'm going to

662
00:23:15,250 --> 00:23:17,970
say, hey. Regardless of what I deserve, I

663
00:23:17,970 --> 00:23:20,690
have dignity, which enables me to make a

664
00:23:20,690 --> 00:23:22,230
powerful choice to be generous,

665
00:23:22,545 --> 00:23:24,465
to be benevolent, to show up in a

666
00:23:24,465 --> 00:23:26,325
way that may be very sacrificial.

667
00:23:26,945 --> 00:23:28,865
And it's all for the good of an

668
00:23:28,865 --> 00:23:29,365
altruistic

669
00:23:30,065 --> 00:23:32,305
outcome, you know, the best interest of my

670
00:23:32,305 --> 00:23:34,164
partner and me in our relationship.

671
00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:37,600
And so I look at entitlement differently. I

672
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,680
separate it from narcissism in the sense that

673
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,779
it's not about being too fragile

674
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,480
or being too grandiose, like you really think

675
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,640
you're better than others. If those flavors are

676
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,039
there, maybe somebody does have some narcissism on

677
00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:51,414
board. But, really, a lot of the men

678
00:23:51,414 --> 00:23:53,654
I work with have some level of kinda

679
00:23:53,654 --> 00:23:56,134
giftedness. You know? They're really good at doing

680
00:23:56,134 --> 00:23:56,954
certain things,

681
00:23:57,335 --> 00:23:58,634
and those strengths

682
00:23:59,014 --> 00:24:00,774
kinda have another end of the spectrum too.

683
00:24:00,774 --> 00:24:03,514
They become weaknesses in certain relational contexts.

684
00:24:04,279 --> 00:24:07,019
But you're right. The things that bring success

685
00:24:07,399 --> 00:24:07,899
oftentimes

686
00:24:08,279 --> 00:24:09,339
don't work well

687
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,519
relationally. Right? So it's not like you have

688
00:24:12,519 --> 00:24:14,440
to offload all your skills in order to

689
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,759
be a healthy person. Mhmm. But channeling them

690
00:24:16,759 --> 00:24:18,059
toward what really matters

691
00:24:18,744 --> 00:24:21,544
can be a huge win and can feel,

692
00:24:21,544 --> 00:24:24,204
like, maturity and can feel, like, a masculinity

693
00:24:24,424 --> 00:24:26,204
that's, like, really strong. And

694
00:24:26,744 --> 00:24:28,284
so I just I really

695
00:24:28,664 --> 00:24:29,484
feel strongly

696
00:24:29,865 --> 00:24:32,184
about helping men access the strength they have

697
00:24:32,184 --> 00:24:34,204
inside of them. I think most men

698
00:24:34,549 --> 00:24:36,630
need to be challenged to the level of

699
00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:38,309
their strength and may not know how deep

700
00:24:38,309 --> 00:24:40,390
it really is. I believe that men have

701
00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:42,309
everything they really need inside of them to

702
00:24:42,309 --> 00:24:44,789
actualize empathy and integrity, even if they didn't

703
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:46,634
have a good template for that growing up.

704
00:24:46,714 --> 00:24:48,634
I believe in their dignity and that's what

705
00:24:48,634 --> 00:24:50,474
I help them access so that they can

706
00:24:50,474 --> 00:24:52,875
like see what they're capable of. Yeah, no,

707
00:24:52,875 --> 00:24:55,035
what I hear there, because you see this

708
00:24:55,035 --> 00:24:56,974
a lot. If these men feel at all,

709
00:24:57,275 --> 00:24:59,859
like you are going to make it harder

710
00:24:59,859 --> 00:25:01,659
for them to get their needs met, which

711
00:25:01,659 --> 00:25:03,579
recovery can do this. We have to be

712
00:25:03,579 --> 00:25:05,440
sensitive to where

713
00:25:06,059 --> 00:25:09,899
the driven successful males mindset is. Their worth

714
00:25:09,899 --> 00:25:12,319
is in the influence, the accomplishments,

715
00:25:12,859 --> 00:25:14,779
and that's where they find all their worth,

716
00:25:14,779 --> 00:25:16,755
right? So to me, I always tell everybody,

717
00:25:16,755 --> 00:25:18,355
we just have to honor where we are

718
00:25:18,355 --> 00:25:20,134
in 2025 as a capitalistic

719
00:25:20,434 --> 00:25:23,494
materialistic society. I think there's a lot of

720
00:25:24,035 --> 00:25:27,394
good behind a lot of their bad. The

721
00:25:27,394 --> 00:25:29,820
intent was not to be a bad person.

722
00:25:29,820 --> 00:25:32,299
I mean, these guys, every week, I have

723
00:25:32,299 --> 00:25:33,900
60 guys and I have six different groups

724
00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:36,619
of 10 guys. Every week somebody's crying. Somebody's

725
00:25:36,619 --> 00:25:39,359
crying about how far off track

726
00:25:39,660 --> 00:25:40,720
they unknowingly

727
00:25:41,019 --> 00:25:42,835
got. And my point of that is, I

728
00:25:42,835 --> 00:25:45,394
don't have anyone in this program who does

729
00:25:45,394 --> 00:25:47,154
not feel horrible at what they had done

730
00:25:47,154 --> 00:25:48,755
and wants to undo all of it. They

731
00:25:48,755 --> 00:25:50,434
wanna undo every little bit of it. And

732
00:25:50,434 --> 00:25:51,795
so to me, I don't know. I mean,

733
00:25:51,795 --> 00:25:54,595
how narcissistic are they if they're literally doing

734
00:25:54,595 --> 00:25:55,815
everything in their power

735
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:58,789
to gain some redemption and undo the harm

736
00:25:58,789 --> 00:26:00,230
that they've caused others? I don't know. These

737
00:26:00,230 --> 00:26:02,730
are, to me, these men have plenty

738
00:26:03,190 --> 00:26:05,669
of empathy and plenty of goodness in their

739
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:08,149
hearts. It really saddens me to see them

740
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:09,690
be accused of being unempathetic

741
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:12,525
and being called narcissist. It's just, you know,

742
00:26:12,525 --> 00:26:14,445
I just I don't think that's accurate. They

743
00:26:14,445 --> 00:26:15,884
might not be good at doing empathy in

744
00:26:15,884 --> 00:26:17,164
the way that you want them to. And

745
00:26:17,164 --> 00:26:19,325
they might have some narcissistic tendencies that they

746
00:26:19,325 --> 00:26:21,884
don't want to release because they've found value

747
00:26:21,884 --> 00:26:23,644
in them in business. But to me, to

748
00:26:23,644 --> 00:26:25,565
call them some of those things is it's

749
00:26:25,565 --> 00:26:27,509
causing more harm, more harm than good. And

750
00:26:27,509 --> 00:26:29,230
the other thing that I do Can I

751
00:26:29,230 --> 00:26:30,750
challenge you on the dance? Please, please. Yeah.

752
00:26:30,750 --> 00:26:32,910
Here's what I'd say. In the groups of

753
00:26:32,910 --> 00:26:35,390
men that I have, we often talk about

754
00:26:35,390 --> 00:26:36,750
how they wish their wives could be a

755
00:26:36,750 --> 00:26:38,130
fly on the wall because

756
00:26:38,670 --> 00:26:39,570
they would see

757
00:26:40,005 --> 00:26:42,244
something, not just in their own husband who's

758
00:26:42,244 --> 00:26:44,805
attending the group, but in the collective whole

759
00:26:44,805 --> 00:26:46,744
of, like, this all star mentality

760
00:26:47,445 --> 00:26:49,445
where they are doing the work there, holding

761
00:26:49,445 --> 00:26:51,285
each other's feet to the fire, they're calling

762
00:26:51,285 --> 00:26:54,309
themselves forward, they're taking initiative. They're doing mental

763
00:26:54,309 --> 00:26:56,250
and emotional labor. They're engaging

764
00:26:56,710 --> 00:26:57,529
with intimacy,

765
00:26:58,150 --> 00:27:00,150
and they have a desire to do better

766
00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:01,609
to be good men.

767
00:27:02,150 --> 00:27:04,470
And then the meeting closes, you know, the

768
00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:06,230
laptop closes. Oh, I already know where you're

769
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:08,234
going now. I know where you're going. Well,

770
00:27:08,234 --> 00:27:09,695
and the idea is that

771
00:27:10,075 --> 00:27:10,815
that doesn't

772
00:27:11,195 --> 00:27:13,994
translate. What the work that they're doing doesn't

773
00:27:13,994 --> 00:27:16,714
necessarily translate in the context of a difficult

774
00:27:16,714 --> 00:27:19,035
moment where they do withdraw or they're still

775
00:27:19,035 --> 00:27:21,295
struggling to listen with their full attention.

776
00:27:21,690 --> 00:27:24,109
And the truth is they've given their wives

777
00:27:24,569 --> 00:27:27,149
years' worth, if not decades' worth, of history

778
00:27:27,609 --> 00:27:28,970
to prove that they will not do the

779
00:27:28,970 --> 00:27:31,849
right thing when pressed, that they will choose

780
00:27:31,849 --> 00:27:35,049
the selfish avenue. And so their wives have

781
00:27:35,049 --> 00:27:37,549
really good reason to operate from a negative

782
00:27:37,825 --> 00:27:41,125
perspective. And any trace of that old programming

783
00:27:41,184 --> 00:27:43,424
gets called out because it's not safe. It's

784
00:27:43,424 --> 00:27:45,585
indicative of more acting out coming down the

785
00:27:45,585 --> 00:27:48,625
pike. So the truth is, like, in those

786
00:27:48,625 --> 00:27:49,125
groups,

787
00:27:49,505 --> 00:27:50,005
narcissism

788
00:27:50,305 --> 00:27:51,984
may be the farthest. There's not a shred

789
00:27:51,984 --> 00:27:54,539
of it. Right? But at home Yeah. How

790
00:27:54,539 --> 00:27:57,500
much progress they're making, their wife's complaints are

791
00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:00,720
still valid and worth listening to even when

792
00:28:00,940 --> 00:28:02,940
they don't make sense. And usually when they

793
00:28:02,940 --> 00:28:04,859
don't make sense, it's because I believe that

794
00:28:04,859 --> 00:28:06,700
they've got some blockages going on that are

795
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:09,065
obviously unknown because they're so very old. Like

796
00:28:09,065 --> 00:28:11,945
you said earlier, this stuff isn't like, hey.

797
00:28:11,945 --> 00:28:13,545
I'm gonna wake up one day and choose

798
00:28:13,545 --> 00:28:14,045
narcissism.

799
00:28:14,424 --> 00:28:15,785
Right. You know? Like, I'd like to wake

800
00:28:15,785 --> 00:28:18,184
up and be, you know, a total a

801
00:28:18,184 --> 00:28:20,924
hole, you know, forever and really even relationships.

802
00:28:21,305 --> 00:28:24,430
It's more a slow onboarding of self protective

803
00:28:24,490 --> 00:28:26,990
measures that often come from really sad stories.

804
00:28:27,049 --> 00:28:27,549
Mhmm.

805
00:28:28,009 --> 00:28:28,509
Particularly

806
00:28:28,809 --> 00:28:31,609
neglect stories. Not always outright abuse, whether it

807
00:28:31,609 --> 00:28:33,210
was a black eye or a bruise to

808
00:28:33,210 --> 00:28:35,369
show for it. Sometimes we're talking about things

809
00:28:35,369 --> 00:28:37,805
that just didn't happen enough. And it's so

810
00:28:37,805 --> 00:28:41,025
hard to pinpoint those chasms in one development

811
00:28:41,244 --> 00:28:42,845
because you don't know what you don't know.

812
00:28:42,845 --> 00:28:44,464
Right? So you don't know what you missed,

813
00:28:44,845 --> 00:28:46,525
and you just go about life trying to

814
00:28:46,525 --> 00:28:49,005
fill empty voids sometimes Mhmm. For what you

815
00:28:49,005 --> 00:28:49,825
weren't taught.

816
00:28:50,299 --> 00:28:52,220
And that's where a lot of these I

817
00:28:52,220 --> 00:28:55,179
call them the dire traits, detachment, incongruence, regression,

818
00:28:55,179 --> 00:28:57,179
and entitlement. That's, I think, where they begin

819
00:28:57,179 --> 00:28:59,819
to onboard, and they are useful. They're useful

820
00:28:59,819 --> 00:29:02,779
in helping one function. They're useful in helping

821
00:29:02,779 --> 00:29:05,404
somebody not feel squashed or demeaned or less

822
00:29:05,404 --> 00:29:05,984
important, but

823
00:29:06,845 --> 00:29:09,244
at the same time, they outlive their value.

824
00:29:09,244 --> 00:29:10,964
Yeah. You you what you said there is

825
00:29:11,085 --> 00:29:12,784
here's how I articulate it is,

826
00:29:13,244 --> 00:29:15,164
most of the guys in my program, their

827
00:29:15,164 --> 00:29:19,079
biggest pathology or weakness or vulnerability is they

828
00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:21,660
really dislike any situation or person

829
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,599
that validates a story about them that they

830
00:29:24,599 --> 00:29:26,440
do not like. And so I think that

831
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,119
is how I see it with the wife

832
00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:28,859
is here,

833
00:29:29,319 --> 00:29:31,095
it's, I'm so proud of you. You. Here,

834
00:29:31,095 --> 00:29:32,855
it's, Gosh, you've changed so much in just

835
00:29:32,855 --> 00:29:34,454
three months since you've been in the program.

836
00:29:34,454 --> 00:29:36,134
Here, you know, they come out to the

837
00:29:36,134 --> 00:29:37,355
retreat and it is

838
00:29:38,134 --> 00:29:40,855
just attention. I mean, they're being validated in

839
00:29:40,855 --> 00:29:43,095
a way that they've really longed for, especially

840
00:29:43,095 --> 00:29:44,775
in these groups. A lot of this is

841
00:29:44,775 --> 00:29:47,609
like a level of connection and brotherhood that

842
00:29:47,609 --> 00:29:49,450
these guys have just never had. Right? And

843
00:29:49,450 --> 00:29:51,950
then, yeah, to your point, I go home

844
00:29:52,089 --> 00:29:53,929
and my worst nightmare is happening. I am

845
00:29:53,929 --> 00:29:56,009
being accused of things I've never done. I

846
00:29:56,009 --> 00:29:59,069
am being called things that I never dreamt

847
00:29:59,244 --> 00:30:01,484
that my life partner would call me. I

848
00:30:01,484 --> 00:30:03,244
am I mean, it is from somebody who

849
00:30:03,244 --> 00:30:05,404
really fights hard to have nice things said

850
00:30:05,404 --> 00:30:07,764
about me. My home is my worst nightmare.

851
00:30:07,764 --> 00:30:09,565
I It is the place where I feel

852
00:30:09,565 --> 00:30:11,565
the worst about myself. Right? And so to

853
00:30:11,565 --> 00:30:13,005
your point, a lot of these partners are

854
00:30:13,005 --> 00:30:14,625
getting a very different version

855
00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:18,079
outside of group. And I appreciate you bringing

856
00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:19,680
that up. The other thing too, that I

857
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,920
was thinking of on that same token, what

858
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,519
I have found I'll make it about me.

859
00:30:23,519 --> 00:30:25,359
I won't project this onto other guys because

860
00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:26,720
I actually don't know if this is true

861
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,730
for other guys, but I suspect it is.

862
00:30:28,730 --> 00:30:30,194
You know what I've learned? And this is

863
00:30:30,194 --> 00:30:32,275
a really painful thing to admit. I really

864
00:30:32,275 --> 00:30:34,355
hate saying this out loud because it's just

865
00:30:34,355 --> 00:30:35,875
sad. It's just a sad thing to say,

866
00:30:35,875 --> 00:30:37,315
but it's true. So I'm going to say

867
00:30:37,315 --> 00:30:39,015
it. You know what I realized, Hope?

868
00:30:39,714 --> 00:30:41,315
I always had I have this story of

869
00:30:41,315 --> 00:30:43,315
I have a hard time connecting with other

870
00:30:43,315 --> 00:30:45,160
men, right? 12 step programs were just so

871
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:46,839
hard for me. Sometimes when I was in

872
00:30:46,839 --> 00:30:48,279
a really awesome city and there was a

873
00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:49,640
bunch of other high achieving men there, then

874
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,400
it would be awesome. But if there weren't,

875
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:52,599
I had a really hard time. But you

876
00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:54,119
know what I realized? And again, this is

877
00:30:54,119 --> 00:30:56,940
so sad. As my therapists were digging into

878
00:30:57,079 --> 00:30:58,140
my difficulties

879
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,005
with connection, they asked, Well, give me some

880
00:31:01,005 --> 00:31:02,764
ideas. Roland, tell me when you feel the

881
00:31:02,764 --> 00:31:04,544
most connected. And this is when I discovered

882
00:31:04,845 --> 00:31:07,744
that this really sad moment. I was confusing

883
00:31:07,964 --> 00:31:09,345
connection hope with

884
00:31:09,724 --> 00:31:10,625
people who

885
00:31:11,005 --> 00:31:12,224
drink my Kool Aid.

886
00:31:12,830 --> 00:31:14,830
That's what I thought connection was. And so

887
00:31:14,830 --> 00:31:18,509
I love hanging around other entrepreneurs driven dudes

888
00:31:18,509 --> 00:31:20,430
because they're like, Oh, yeah. You know, they

889
00:31:20,430 --> 00:31:22,670
see my my wristwatch or they see the

890
00:31:22,670 --> 00:31:25,309
projects I'm working on and they're falling for

891
00:31:25,309 --> 00:31:27,924
my spells. I'm casting impressive spells on them

892
00:31:27,924 --> 00:31:28,825
and it's working.

893
00:31:29,284 --> 00:31:31,284
Whereas when I go and cast a spell

894
00:31:31,284 --> 00:31:33,365
on someone and they don't know what a

895
00:31:33,365 --> 00:31:35,365
Patek Aquanaut is, they don't know that that's

896
00:31:35,365 --> 00:31:37,924
a $100,000 watch and I cast my spell

897
00:31:37,924 --> 00:31:39,784
on them and they don't buy it.

898
00:31:40,159 --> 00:31:40,659
I

899
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,000
interpreted that as, oh, I don't connect with

900
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,519
you. And so it's it's really sad for

901
00:31:45,519 --> 00:31:47,539
me to admit that, but my whole life,

902
00:31:48,159 --> 00:31:50,480
so much of the connection that I thought

903
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,994
now it explains why I had no connection

904
00:31:53,075 --> 00:31:54,434
because I I really do. Now that I

905
00:31:54,434 --> 00:31:55,734
know what connection is,

906
00:31:56,194 --> 00:31:58,035
I really wonder how much of it I've

907
00:31:58,035 --> 00:32:00,275
ever had, you know, on early stat. So

908
00:32:00,275 --> 00:32:02,755
I just wanted insight. Can I reflect on

909
00:32:02,755 --> 00:32:04,275
that? I think a lot of men who

910
00:32:04,275 --> 00:32:05,974
buy into successful male culture,

911
00:32:06,369 --> 00:32:07,890
I think they are caught up a little

912
00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:09,809
bit in that, that their definition of a

913
00:32:09,809 --> 00:32:11,109
good day is

914
00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:13,890
when I cast my spells that I have

915
00:32:13,890 --> 00:32:15,730
perfected. And then here's the thing, I hold

916
00:32:15,730 --> 00:32:17,029
my little spell back.

917
00:32:17,329 --> 00:32:19,569
I cherish that thing because I was a

918
00:32:19,569 --> 00:32:20,069
nobody.

919
00:32:20,644 --> 00:32:22,244
Oh, before I had that spell back, I

920
00:32:22,244 --> 00:32:24,004
was a nobody. I got bullied. I could

921
00:32:24,004 --> 00:32:25,924
not get the women that I wanted. I

922
00:32:25,924 --> 00:32:28,184
was shy. I was timid. I lacked confidence.

923
00:32:28,484 --> 00:32:30,644
People never saw me how I saw myself.

924
00:32:30,644 --> 00:32:33,125
I hated myself. I hated myself. I hated

925
00:32:33,125 --> 00:32:33,625
myself.

926
00:32:34,140 --> 00:32:35,900
Then I got my spells and I learned

927
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:37,420
how to do them and I got better

928
00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:39,660
at casting better spells on people to the

929
00:32:39,660 --> 00:32:41,740
point where I almost didn't have a spell

930
00:32:41,740 --> 00:32:43,580
that would work on almost everyone. I mean,

931
00:32:43,580 --> 00:32:45,660
I got that good at casting spells on

932
00:32:45,660 --> 00:32:48,384
others. And it's just really sad because I

933
00:32:48,384 --> 00:32:50,244
was confused that that was connection.

934
00:32:50,865 --> 00:32:53,985
And now, I'm having to learn about this

935
00:32:53,985 --> 00:32:54,805
new level

936
00:32:55,664 --> 00:32:58,305
of connecting with people. And what I've realized,

937
00:32:58,305 --> 00:32:59,880
and this is really sad to admit is,

938
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:02,119
I can actually connect with anyone even if

939
00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:04,440
we're very different. And I just I'm sad

940
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,759
about that. I've just lived a very alone

941
00:33:06,759 --> 00:33:09,160
life under this delusion that I was actually

942
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:10,599
connecting. But here's the last thing I want

943
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:11,720
to say on that. And I'm curious to

944
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,079
get your take on it. Here's what I've

945
00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:15,805
realized about spellcasting, Hope. I know it's a

946
00:33:15,805 --> 00:33:18,845
spell. And so even though they were saying

947
00:33:18,845 --> 00:33:20,785
everything that I've ever wanted to hear,

948
00:33:21,325 --> 00:33:22,765
ever, they they were looking at me at

949
00:33:22,765 --> 00:33:24,285
way at ways that the little boy in

950
00:33:24,285 --> 00:33:26,125
me would I wanted people to look at

951
00:33:26,125 --> 00:33:27,884
me in that way so badly. It was

952
00:33:27,884 --> 00:33:28,865
all I ever wanted.

953
00:33:29,410 --> 00:33:31,089
But you know what I realized is when

954
00:33:31,089 --> 00:33:33,009
you know it's a spell, their compliment doesn't

955
00:33:33,009 --> 00:33:33,750
mean shit

956
00:33:34,210 --> 00:33:36,950
because they're complimenting my spell, not me.

957
00:33:37,250 --> 00:33:39,410
And I never knew. And it's those two

958
00:33:39,410 --> 00:33:40,950
things. It's the lack of connection

959
00:33:41,455 --> 00:33:43,475
and the fact that I was just bullshitting

960
00:33:43,535 --> 00:33:44,035
everyone

961
00:33:44,335 --> 00:33:45,555
trying so desperately

962
00:33:46,335 --> 00:33:47,695
to get those things to be said about

963
00:33:47,695 --> 00:33:49,295
me. And then I finally got it and

964
00:33:49,295 --> 00:33:50,815
it never worked. And then I try it

965
00:33:50,815 --> 00:33:52,335
again in a bigger way because I'm like,

966
00:33:52,335 --> 00:33:53,934
Oh, maybe it just wasn't enough. Maybe I

967
00:33:53,934 --> 00:33:55,295
need to get on a bigger stage. And

968
00:33:55,295 --> 00:33:56,575
then I would do it up there and

969
00:33:56,575 --> 00:33:58,390
it wouldn't work. And then I would, Oh,

970
00:33:58,390 --> 00:33:59,509
I just, I need it, I need it.

971
00:33:59,509 --> 00:34:02,070
Maybe more successful men would say that. And

972
00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:04,009
then maybe that'll do it. I'll get billionaires

973
00:34:04,070 --> 00:34:05,509
to say that about me. Then I got

974
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:07,769
them to say it about me, didn't work.

975
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:09,369
And that was when I realized,

976
00:34:09,795 --> 00:34:11,795
if you want to be seen, you have

977
00:34:11,795 --> 00:34:14,034
to show them you. And it's a tough

978
00:34:14,034 --> 00:34:15,835
topic for me to mention because it explains

979
00:34:15,835 --> 00:34:17,795
a lot of my isolation and sadness for

980
00:34:17,795 --> 00:34:18,614
so many decades.

981
00:34:18,914 --> 00:34:19,414
Yeah.

982
00:34:20,034 --> 00:34:22,275
Grateful you would share that with me, with

983
00:34:22,275 --> 00:34:24,780
your audience too. You know, I talk about

984
00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:26,860
incongruence in my program, which you've just so

985
00:34:26,860 --> 00:34:29,680
beautifully articulated, the pain points of it particularly.

986
00:34:30,140 --> 00:34:31,119
You know, living

987
00:34:31,420 --> 00:34:32,940
in one way in front of the camera

988
00:34:32,940 --> 00:34:35,019
and a different way behind closed doors, and

989
00:34:35,019 --> 00:34:37,199
all of it involves force. It involves

990
00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:40,664
effort and exertion to help people see your

991
00:34:40,664 --> 00:34:41,164
value.

992
00:34:41,545 --> 00:34:43,785
It's interesting because what you said was before

993
00:34:43,785 --> 00:34:45,465
I had my bag of spells, I was

994
00:34:45,465 --> 00:34:47,864
a nobody. But I would say to play

995
00:34:47,864 --> 00:34:49,144
that tape all the way through, I was

996
00:34:49,144 --> 00:34:51,485
a nobody according to culture's definition.

997
00:34:51,864 --> 00:34:54,910
Right? And now your definition in recovery and

998
00:34:54,910 --> 00:34:57,090
with so much healing work on board,

999
00:34:57,390 --> 00:34:59,630
wouldn't your definition of who you used to

1000
00:34:59,630 --> 00:35:01,650
be be that you were just good enough?

1001
00:35:02,430 --> 00:35:04,590
Mhmm. Mhmm. It's it's the person it's you

1002
00:35:04,590 --> 00:35:06,750
know, the irony is when I show people

1003
00:35:06,750 --> 00:35:07,250
that,

1004
00:35:07,674 --> 00:35:08,414
two things

1005
00:35:08,714 --> 00:35:11,355
happens. One, they love it more than the

1006
00:35:11,355 --> 00:35:14,315
performance. And two, the compliment when I get

1007
00:35:14,315 --> 00:35:15,835
one or I don't even need a compliment.

1008
00:35:15,835 --> 00:35:18,154
The funny thing is just showing them me,

1009
00:35:18,154 --> 00:35:19,994
I was just at like a psychodrama event

1010
00:35:19,994 --> 00:35:21,194
the other day. I live in Sedona, so

1011
00:35:21,194 --> 00:35:22,949
there's all sorts of crazy weird shit going

1012
00:35:22,949 --> 00:35:23,989
on here all the time. So I was

1013
00:35:23,989 --> 00:35:26,170
at this like psychodrama event the other night

1014
00:35:26,550 --> 00:35:28,869
and I was just in tears. We stayed

1015
00:35:28,869 --> 00:35:30,150
for like an hour and a half past

1016
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:30,809
the event

1017
00:35:31,269 --> 00:35:33,110
because everyone there was just this

1018
00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:34,789
I'm hanging out with, you know, some of

1019
00:35:34,789 --> 00:35:36,684
the ladies are like 70 year old, you

1020
00:35:36,684 --> 00:35:38,925
know, you know, but it was just this

1021
00:35:38,925 --> 00:35:41,405
beautiful thing that was occurring. And again, I

1022
00:35:41,405 --> 00:35:43,724
don't know if anyone actually even ever complimented

1023
00:35:43,724 --> 00:35:45,804
me or said anything. It didn't matter though,

1024
00:35:45,804 --> 00:35:47,425
the way they looked at me

1025
00:35:47,964 --> 00:35:49,585
spell less, free of spells.

1026
00:35:49,980 --> 00:35:51,820
I mean, it's just a feeling that I've

1027
00:35:51,820 --> 00:35:53,579
really longed for. And I want to point

1028
00:35:53,579 --> 00:35:55,900
out, I'm scared of it too, because I

1029
00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:57,500
don't know what it is yet. So to

1030
00:35:57,500 --> 00:35:59,519
have somebody to get that feeling,

1031
00:35:59,820 --> 00:36:01,260
it makes me want to go back to

1032
00:36:01,260 --> 00:36:02,880
spell casting. I actually don't,

1033
00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:05,039
I'm still uncomfortable with

1034
00:36:05,434 --> 00:36:07,434
being equal. I don't like that. I like

1035
00:36:07,434 --> 00:36:09,614
being better than everyone, and I like everyone

1036
00:36:09,675 --> 00:36:11,914
knowing that I am better than them. And

1037
00:36:11,914 --> 00:36:14,315
that's just a comfortable place that I've rested

1038
00:36:14,315 --> 00:36:16,394
for a long time. That's a great insight

1039
00:36:16,394 --> 00:36:18,420
to have, an important one. But, you know,

1040
00:36:18,579 --> 00:36:20,980
I mean, the challenge then is to channel

1041
00:36:20,980 --> 00:36:24,019
the energy into casting spells into something that

1042
00:36:24,019 --> 00:36:25,159
allows you to tolerate

1043
00:36:25,859 --> 00:36:29,139
equity and quality. You know? When we tolerate

1044
00:36:29,139 --> 00:36:31,219
it, then the gateway opens up for, like,

1045
00:36:31,219 --> 00:36:33,239
that real connection, which I know you're already

1046
00:36:33,744 --> 00:36:35,905
experiencing. I'm not trying to teach you something

1047
00:36:35,905 --> 00:36:37,585
that I think you aren't already learning, but

1048
00:36:37,585 --> 00:36:39,344
I just love how you're putting words to

1049
00:36:39,344 --> 00:36:41,505
that. It is so painful to think that

1050
00:36:41,505 --> 00:36:43,264
all the connection we've had may have been

1051
00:36:43,264 --> 00:36:46,224
rooted in like mindedness or us convincing people

1052
00:36:46,224 --> 00:36:48,539
that we matter. Right? When ultimately

1053
00:36:49,319 --> 00:36:52,440
there's just such a beautiful rawness that really

1054
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:53,960
has yet to emerge for most of them,

1055
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,260
and I work with anyway.

1056
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,159
And, you know, have you ever heard of

1057
00:36:57,159 --> 00:36:58,299
that hero's journey?

1058
00:36:58,599 --> 00:37:01,159
Yeah. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. What I love most about

1059
00:37:01,159 --> 00:37:03,275
it, Roland, is that, like, it's this guy

1060
00:37:03,275 --> 00:37:04,795
who starts off just kind of a normal

1061
00:37:04,795 --> 00:37:06,555
guy. Right? And then he goes through battles,

1062
00:37:06,555 --> 00:37:08,474
and then he fights temptation, and then he

1063
00:37:08,474 --> 00:37:10,635
fights a bigger demon. And then the biggest

1064
00:37:10,635 --> 00:37:12,075
demon yet, and he's about to die, and

1065
00:37:12,075 --> 00:37:14,235
there's a helper who comes and finally, he

1066
00:37:14,235 --> 00:37:15,454
returns to normal.

1067
00:37:15,989 --> 00:37:18,070
Back where he used to be as far

1068
00:37:18,070 --> 00:37:19,510
as where he lives, what he used to

1069
00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:21,269
look like, he's just the same guy, but

1070
00:37:21,269 --> 00:37:23,929
not inside. He's different. He's, like, transcendent.

1071
00:37:24,469 --> 00:37:26,789
And I think that there's so much truth

1072
00:37:26,789 --> 00:37:28,949
in that and the purpose of life to

1073
00:37:29,775 --> 00:37:31,694
we can't break shape. Like, we're not shape

1074
00:37:31,694 --> 00:37:33,534
shifters. We spend all this time working to

1075
00:37:33,534 --> 00:37:34,974
do that. And then, like, we return to,

1076
00:37:34,974 --> 00:37:36,434
like, our original embodiment,

1077
00:37:36,974 --> 00:37:38,194
our original program,

1078
00:37:38,734 --> 00:37:41,295
and we're like, wow. This was fine all

1079
00:37:41,295 --> 00:37:43,780
along. It was precious. It was dignified.

1080
00:37:44,079 --> 00:37:46,639
It was worth investing in. It was talented

1081
00:37:46,639 --> 00:37:48,559
and skilled, but it was also caring, and

1082
00:37:48,559 --> 00:37:50,400
it didn't have to protect itself as much

1083
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,800
as maybe well, it might have had to

1084
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,639
protect itself, but at some point, it needed

1085
00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:56,320
to lay down some of those protections in

1086
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,364
order to let people in. You know? And

1087
00:37:58,364 --> 00:38:00,704
and so we kinda refurbish ourselves, and we

1088
00:38:01,005 --> 00:38:03,485
become kind of, like, babies again. You know?

1089
00:38:03,485 --> 00:38:05,644
Like, who we were meant to be. I

1090
00:38:05,644 --> 00:38:07,244
see you doing that. I think that's so

1091
00:38:07,244 --> 00:38:09,085
awesome. There's so much peace, though, in knowing

1092
00:38:09,085 --> 00:38:11,750
nothing. And it's funny because we're all terrified.

1093
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:13,349
You know, one of my shamans I worked

1094
00:38:13,349 --> 00:38:15,670
with back in 2015, he said that, he

1095
00:38:15,670 --> 00:38:16,409
goes, Roland,

1096
00:38:16,789 --> 00:38:18,409
life is a sequence of becoming

1097
00:38:18,789 --> 00:38:20,550
somebody, and then we become a somebody, and

1098
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:22,309
we're like, I'm not this. And then we

1099
00:38:22,309 --> 00:38:23,510
become a nobody, but then we don't wanna

1100
00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:24,630
be a nobody, and then when So we

1101
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:26,389
become a somebody again, and then we are

1102
00:38:26,389 --> 00:38:27,804
like, Well, this isn't me. And then we

1103
00:38:27,804 --> 00:38:29,565
become a nobody and he goes, Roll on.

1104
00:38:29,565 --> 00:38:31,324
He goes, you're just gonna do that forever.

1105
00:38:31,324 --> 00:38:33,565
And he goes, the cool thing is that

1106
00:38:33,565 --> 00:38:35,164
it kind of gets closer and closer to

1107
00:38:35,164 --> 00:38:37,565
the asymptote as you go, and you start

1108
00:38:37,565 --> 00:38:39,739
spending more time being you. And I'll never

1109
00:38:39,739 --> 00:38:41,420
forget when he explained that, but that is

1110
00:38:41,420 --> 00:38:43,099
absolutely how it's come. You just go through

1111
00:38:43,099 --> 00:38:45,019
these, Oh, this is who I am, and

1112
00:38:45,019 --> 00:38:46,460
then you find out it's not who you

1113
00:38:46,460 --> 00:38:48,460
are. And then you try again, and it's

1114
00:38:48,460 --> 00:38:50,460
like, No, no, I'm somebody like this. I

1115
00:38:50,460 --> 00:38:52,059
think that's just the journey of life is

1116
00:38:52,059 --> 00:38:54,159
doing your best to become you,

1117
00:38:54,539 --> 00:38:56,515
knowing that it's really hard and you can

1118
00:38:56,515 --> 00:38:58,034
always get closer. It's kinda like golf. So

1119
00:38:58,034 --> 00:38:59,394
you're getting a hole in one off the

1120
00:38:59,394 --> 00:39:01,394
tee off every hole, you can always get

1121
00:39:01,394 --> 00:39:04,114
closer. And, I think that's why self mastery

1122
00:39:04,114 --> 00:39:05,554
can be so fun. That's why I like

1123
00:39:05,554 --> 00:39:07,554
to focus on that instead of recovery. And

1124
00:39:07,554 --> 00:39:08,675
the thing that I would mention too for

1125
00:39:08,675 --> 00:39:11,530
everybody listening to this, the easiest way is

1126
00:39:11,530 --> 00:39:12,989
the reason I formulated my groups

1127
00:39:13,289 --> 00:39:15,449
is the easiest way for you to start

1128
00:39:15,449 --> 00:39:17,710
to be okay with being equal,

1129
00:39:18,010 --> 00:39:20,089
learn about what connection is. It really is

1130
00:39:20,089 --> 00:39:22,489
the easiest way is to start with like

1131
00:39:22,489 --> 00:39:24,569
minded people. That's why I structured my groups

1132
00:39:24,569 --> 00:39:27,425
for high achievers and is sometimes the leap

1133
00:39:27,425 --> 00:39:27,925
between

1134
00:39:28,224 --> 00:39:30,224
here and there is too big. It's just

1135
00:39:30,224 --> 00:39:32,144
too big. You need to be around a

1136
00:39:32,144 --> 00:39:34,625
bunch of other people who have a similar

1137
00:39:34,625 --> 00:39:36,625
pathology and are afraid of the same thing,

1138
00:39:36,625 --> 00:39:38,644
and you guys can connect in that place

1139
00:39:38,784 --> 00:39:40,644
and then get to a place where soon

1140
00:39:40,820 --> 00:39:42,900
you guys can work together to, Hey, it's

1141
00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:44,659
okay to be equal. It's okay to, you

1142
00:39:44,659 --> 00:39:46,179
know, these things are good for us. You

1143
00:39:46,179 --> 00:39:47,699
know, I would argue as long as you're

1144
00:39:47,699 --> 00:39:49,699
trying to be better than others, I think

1145
00:39:49,699 --> 00:39:51,619
you'll struggle in your sobriety and recovery as

1146
00:39:51,619 --> 00:39:53,460
well. I think it's very unhuman to do

1147
00:39:53,460 --> 00:39:56,195
such a thing. So Hope, last question. If

1148
00:39:56,195 --> 00:39:58,135
guys are gonna reach out to you, where

1149
00:39:58,195 --> 00:39:59,795
are they? Like, how do they know that

1150
00:39:59,795 --> 00:40:02,035
your program's a good fit? And then after

1151
00:40:02,035 --> 00:40:04,535
that, how do they find it? Okay. Sure.

1152
00:40:04,675 --> 00:40:08,050
Well, the men that are best candidates for

1153
00:40:08,050 --> 00:40:10,309
my program, it's called getting dire straight.

1154
00:40:10,769 --> 00:40:13,650
Those men are in advanced recovery, meaning they

1155
00:40:13,650 --> 00:40:15,969
have some sobriety under their belt, you know,

1156
00:40:15,969 --> 00:40:17,809
if they use that term sobriety. It's a

1157
00:40:17,809 --> 00:40:20,924
common way to say I'm abstaining from fidelity

1158
00:40:20,924 --> 00:40:21,424
violating

1159
00:40:21,804 --> 00:40:22,304
behaviors.

1160
00:40:22,844 --> 00:40:25,484
They're also partnered to someone, and they're trying

1161
00:40:25,484 --> 00:40:26,924
to make it work. If they're in the

1162
00:40:26,924 --> 00:40:29,405
midst of a separation, but they're hoping to

1163
00:40:29,405 --> 00:40:32,130
rejoin in marriage or or commitment, They can

1164
00:40:32,130 --> 00:40:33,190
be good candidates.

1165
00:40:33,489 --> 00:40:35,250
But they're advanced in the sense that they

1166
00:40:35,250 --> 00:40:37,569
are running into walls, aware of their partner's

1167
00:40:37,569 --> 00:40:39,909
complaints, but not really sure how to actualize

1168
00:40:40,049 --> 00:40:40,549
change.

1169
00:40:40,849 --> 00:40:43,089
They do have effort. They do have energy

1170
00:40:43,089 --> 00:40:45,329
to give. They're open to being challenged. You

1171
00:40:45,329 --> 00:40:48,304
know? So those are the guys that I

1172
00:40:48,304 --> 00:40:51,364
I just feel deep passion to walk alongside

1173
00:40:51,664 --> 00:40:53,905
and help them find each other so they

1174
00:40:53,905 --> 00:40:56,304
can find my website is hoperay.com.

1175
00:40:56,304 --> 00:40:58,304
Yeah. Awesome. I love that. Help us was

1176
00:40:58,304 --> 00:40:59,585
so fun. We're gonna have to do it

1177
00:40:59,585 --> 00:41:00,644
again. Chris

1178
00:41:00,989 --> 00:41:03,469
introduced me to you. I was describing, and

1179
00:41:03,469 --> 00:41:04,829
he said, Oh, I just look up to

1180
00:41:04,829 --> 00:41:07,070
her so much. And, yeah, we didn't disappoint.

1181
00:41:07,070 --> 00:41:08,750
I see why he wanted us to connect.

1182
00:41:08,750 --> 00:41:12,110
Just deep thinkers, strategic fun ways of kind

1183
00:41:12,110 --> 00:41:13,570
of, you know, recovery

1184
00:41:13,869 --> 00:41:15,710
is not a copy and paste black and

1185
00:41:15,710 --> 00:41:17,204
white process. So I think, you know, coming

1186
00:41:17,204 --> 00:41:18,965
and calling out the fact that it needs

1187
00:41:18,965 --> 00:41:20,724
to be customized and that the person who

1188
00:41:20,724 --> 00:41:22,325
needs to customize it is the person in

1189
00:41:22,325 --> 00:41:24,405
recovery. I believe in that so much and

1190
00:41:24,405 --> 00:41:25,605
so do you. So I think it's a

1191
00:41:25,605 --> 00:41:27,204
it's a cool it's a cool topic today.

1192
00:41:27,204 --> 00:41:28,965
I love this so much. Well, I just

1193
00:41:28,965 --> 00:41:31,285
wanna thank you for living out loud. That

1194
00:41:31,285 --> 00:41:32,670
might be a cheesy thing to say, but,

1195
00:41:32,670 --> 00:41:33,170
like,

1196
00:41:33,550 --> 00:41:36,109
asking the big questions before maybe even you

1197
00:41:36,109 --> 00:41:38,750
have the answers. That's a really neat part

1198
00:41:38,750 --> 00:41:40,750
of the leadership I see you staking out

1199
00:41:40,750 --> 00:41:43,170
in this area. And I think it's meaningful

1200
00:41:43,230 --> 00:41:45,710
to others and probably resonates deeply with people

1201
00:41:45,710 --> 00:41:46,335
who are asking

1202
00:41:50,894 --> 00:41:52,815
No. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. Until

1203
00:41:52,815 --> 00:41:54,114
next time. Okay.

1204
00:41:55,534 --> 00:41:57,074
Thanks for listening to this episode.

1205
00:41:57,375 --> 00:41:59,010
If you are a high achiever with a

1206
00:41:59,090 --> 00:42:00,769
sex addiction and you're looking for a recovery

1207
00:42:00,769 --> 00:42:04,369
group full of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1208
00:42:04,369 --> 00:42:07,170
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1209
00:42:07,170 --> 00:42:08,469
using four day retreats,

1210
00:42:08,769 --> 00:42:11,590
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1211
00:42:11,650 --> 00:42:13,784
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1212
00:42:13,784 --> 00:42:15,784
save your marriage, go to our website and

1213
00:42:15,784 --> 00:42:16,684
fill out our application.

1214
00:42:16,984 --> 00:42:19,464
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1215
00:42:19,464 --> 00:42:21,065
along to a friend in recovery who would

1216
00:42:21,065 --> 00:42:23,065
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1217
00:42:23,065 --> 00:42:24,744
get this information out to as many high

1218
00:42:24,744 --> 00:42:25,244
achievers

1219
00:42:25,545 --> 00:42:27,385
as possible, and I can't do it without

1220
00:42:27,385 --> 00:42:28,045
your help.