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This is going to be one of my

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top episodes. I can tell you that right

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now and it shouldn't surprise anybody. Right? Doctor

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Jake Porter, this guy is just a genius

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when it comes to seeing what couples need.

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Where is the problem? How do we move

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forward? And in this episode, Jake talks about

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defense versus deficit. And I saw him speak

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on this at a conference last month and

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I knew we had to bring it on

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the show. So how do you determine, you

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know, is my partner defending themselves or they

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truly have a deficit here? Right? How do

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I tell and what do we need to

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do to move forward? Jake and I talk

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about both of those things in this episode.

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I hope you enjoy. You are listening to

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the sex addiction podcast for high achievers, business

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professionals, executives and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply

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and recovery principles specifically to the mindset of

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the high achiever. I'm your host, Roland Cochran,

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founder of The Successful Addict, a recovery group

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for high achieving men struggling with sex and

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porn addiction. For more information about joining our

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group or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now enjoy the rest of the episode.

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What's going on everybody?

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I am here with doctor Jake Porter.

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Jake, I'm so excited for this episode. This

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topic

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is, I believe really messes with the recovery,

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both marital and relational recovery and also individual

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recovery. And that's the whole concept between

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defense versus deficit. Jake, I'm gonna have you

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explain it. Normally, I try to tee up

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the topics, but you're gonna do such a

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better job. Tell the audience what we're talking

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about when we're talking about the difference between

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defense versus a deficit.

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Absolutely. So, yeah, I love talking about this

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subject. I do think it's a total game

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changer for so many individuals and so many

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couples. And the way I start is by

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using, you know, this trite

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expression. You know? If all you have a

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is a hammer, then everything becomes a nail.

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Right?

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And I will just admit that in my

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own training,

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working in the field of sex addiction and

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betrayal and all this kind of stuff,

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early on, I had a hammer. And the

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hammer was

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if some dude

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isn't showing up doing the right thing, manning

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up in the moment, hold her paint, whatever

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it is,

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I'm gonna come down on him. And,

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and just through experience and getting to know

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these people and learning my and and learning

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about myself and research and all this. I

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came to see, wait a minute. Hold on.

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Hold on.

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It's just not that simple. It's just not

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that black and white. And I came to

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appreciate this distinction between a defense mechanism and

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a deficit.

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So

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this is rooted

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in,

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this this concept of of a of a

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deficit is rooted in developmental neurobiology.

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And the idea here is that

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every human being,

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you know, from actually in utero, even before

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birth, we're developing.

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We're we're becoming. We're we're never

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staying the same. We're always becoming. But there

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are these critical times in our development

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where,

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our brains and our nervous systems are learning

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particular capacities,

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this could be like the ability to calm

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yourself down.

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This could be the ability to, you know

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what, kinda shake off that feeling of shame.

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This could be the ability to read other

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people's

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facial features. And and sometimes there are genetic

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issues here, but a lot of times,

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it's early relational experiences.

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And here's the thing that I always say

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is every human being has deficits.

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No one is perfectly developed in every domain

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of cognition and emotional skill and all nobody

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is. Okay?

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But if it if we've got a deficit,

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what that means is

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this is an area

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where there needs to be growth.

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It's not an area

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where a capacity is on board, but someone's

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just not doing it.

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That's different.

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That's where we get into

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defense mechanisms. A defense mechanism is, you know

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what?

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I just don't wanna feel Mhmm. This shame,

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and so

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I'm gonna turn this around. I'm gonna attack

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you, and we're gonna talk about what you

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didn't do. Right? Or I'm just gonna stonewall

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you and go silent.

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That might be a defense mechanism.

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That's entirely different

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than

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a guy who, man, he's just crumbled inside,

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and he's fallen down into this little pit

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of shame,

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and he's frozen. He he he not coming

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out because the capacity

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isn't there.

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So so that's sort of the bottom line

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there, is that a defense mechanism

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I could do otherwise.

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It's it's not a conscious thing. I'm not

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saying I'm consciously doing this. But I the

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the the capacity is there, but I'm avoiding

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some uncomfortable thought or emotion using this this

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defense mechanism versus a deficit where,

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man, this is this is an issue of

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need to grow. Mhmm. Needing to expand my

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capacity. Mhmm. They're such a great you know,

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the the the way I

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the way I look at it is when

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I when I saw you speaking on this,

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couple months ago, that was the first thing

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that hit me was,

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the difference between

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I

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I don't wanna do this. I'm defending this.

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I'm resisting this. I'm pushing this away. I'm

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avoiding this. I'm being manipulative,

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potentially narcissistic,

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grandiose, whatever, you know. So and I think

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that's that off putting stuff, and that's that

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hammer, right, where the therapist is like, don't

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you dare gaslight, don't you dare manipulate,

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you dare avoid right. So,

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and then whereas deficit

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is,

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you know,

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I don't know how to empathize because I

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don't personally value empathy because it just wasn't

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ever really modeled to me in a constructive

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way. So Yeah. You know, to, you know,

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when I hear the words,

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Jake,

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oh, that must be hard. I'm pissed. I'm

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like, yes, homie. It's hard. It's why I

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told you. I want some help here. And

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so, and so, you know, to me, I

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don't value

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empathy

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in that and and and I know that's

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not true, but you know what I mean.

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I don't value empathy in that,

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in that way that a lot of the

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women do because it was never done to

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me. My friends and I don't do that

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together. My dad and I never did that

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together.

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In business, we don't you know, it's solution,

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solution, solution, solution. You know, just manhood. It's

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man up, find a way. Right? And so,

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that is a deficit. So now she's expecting

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me to crawl in the hole. Brother, I

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wanna crawl in the hole in there. I

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I really do wanna crawl in. And my

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and you know what I do?

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I crawl in, but when I'm down there,

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I'm like, okay. Hey. I came up with

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six solutions for you to do this. And

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so Right. I want to, and I think

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I'm doing it. Right? I crawl down there

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with it, and I'm like, hey. Here's my

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five tips for you to get over this

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so we can Yeah. Right? So Yeah. How

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does that go over?

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Not well. Right. Not well. So, so, Jake,

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I wanna go into, like, context with this

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because I think one of the things where

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a lot of these podcasts fall short is

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is too philosophical. So I wanna I wanna,

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like, really talk about the tangibles here. So

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Yeah. So let's let's get into some examples.

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Do you have a really great one that

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you see the most common within let's let's

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choose a therapeutic environment. So the couple's in

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there, they're trying to get productive therapy,

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but it's not it's not being productive. Can

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you talk to us about a deficit versus

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defense strategy that you see most often? I

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absolutely can. And there was an immediate scenario

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that came into my mind when when you

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asked that.

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And

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so imagine this scenario. It's gonna be very

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familiar to many listeners. And if it's not

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familiar to a listener yet, your day's coming

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probably if you're if you're partnered with somebody.

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So

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here's a betrayed partner,

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and the goal in this moment is that

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this betrayed partner is able to express her

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pain,

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share her grief

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over what was lost, the storyline she had

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in her head, what she thought she knew,

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all of right? All of that. And so

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this guy is supposed to and I'm doing

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air quotes here if you can't see me.

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Hold her pain. What the heck does that

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like, what does that even mean hold her

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pain? Which I do know what it means,

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but I don't think we can get better.

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Yeah. I know what it means intellectually, but

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I don't know what it means from a

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feeling Right. Exactly. And and quick little side

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trail here, and I'm gonna get right back

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to your question.

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What you said is so dead on a

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minute ago about getting practical about this, about,

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you know, I don't know how to do

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this.

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I've got an online program for couples called

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Choose Connection Academy, and we we screen the

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couples intensely. We've screened over 425

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couples. Mhmm. Okay?

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Pam does the screening. She's our director director

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of couples care. You met her a couple

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weeks ago. So so Pam has met with

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425

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couples,

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and she will tell you

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that the vast majority of these men

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say to her,

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I want

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to give this to her. I don't know

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how.

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I want to, and I just don't know

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how to do it.

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So so so that's that's exactly right what

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you said. So here's this guy. He doesn't

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know yeah. Maybe intellectually

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okay. Hold her pain. But, like, how? Okay.

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So

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she unloads.

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And maybe and I I mean, maybe it

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is anger, but it makes in there, but

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maybe it's just pain. It's just like how

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devastated she is, and he is silent.

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He like deer in the headlights silent.

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Okay.

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What's going on there?

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So

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my lens, when all I had with with

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was a hammer, when all I knew was

270
00:09:45,570 --> 00:09:48,195
guys get defensive and they defend themselves is,

271
00:09:48,434 --> 00:09:50,375
this guy is either

272
00:09:51,235 --> 00:09:54,054
going to some sort of dissociate, like, intellectualizing

273
00:09:54,434 --> 00:09:57,495
state or he's stonewalling her or he's withdrawing.

274
00:09:58,595 --> 00:09:59,095
Okay?

275
00:10:00,035 --> 00:10:02,169
And so I come out guard. Right? In

276
00:10:02,169 --> 00:10:04,090
his own shame. Right? Right? Or in his

277
00:10:04,090 --> 00:10:05,610
own shame. What does that say? It's making

278
00:10:05,610 --> 00:10:07,850
it about him instead of her. Right? Right.

279
00:10:07,850 --> 00:10:09,850
Right. Which which could very well be going

280
00:10:09,850 --> 00:10:11,870
on, but it's like, get over it.

281
00:10:12,970 --> 00:10:15,764
Right? Man up. Man up. I had a

282
00:10:15,764 --> 00:10:17,365
guy tell me that a therapist said that

283
00:10:17,365 --> 00:10:19,284
to him, like, last week. It pissed me

284
00:10:19,284 --> 00:10:21,204
off so badly. And so just just for

285
00:10:21,204 --> 00:10:23,764
the audience, that get over it, man up,

286
00:10:23,764 --> 00:10:26,084
that's what Jake's talking about is the hammer

287
00:10:26,084 --> 00:10:28,725
of defense. He's defending himself. He's defending himself.

288
00:10:28,725 --> 00:10:29,554
He's defending himself.

289
00:10:30,419 --> 00:10:31,779
Right? So just I just wanted to pause

290
00:10:31,779 --> 00:10:33,220
and and Yeah. Right? That that's what we're

291
00:10:33,220 --> 00:10:35,139
talking about is man up, stop being a

292
00:10:35,139 --> 00:10:37,220
little girl, like, you hurt her, get your

293
00:10:37,220 --> 00:10:39,059
shit together. Right? Yeah. You broke it. You

294
00:10:39,059 --> 00:10:40,580
bought it. You know, that all that whole

295
00:10:40,580 --> 00:10:42,419
thing. And and here's what I say when

296
00:10:42,419 --> 00:10:45,014
I train therapists on this stuff. It's like,

297
00:10:45,254 --> 00:10:47,335
do you really think you're gonna heal shame

298
00:10:47,335 --> 00:10:48,075
with shame?

299
00:10:48,455 --> 00:10:51,014
Nice. I like that. Do you is that

300
00:10:51,014 --> 00:10:53,254
is that the strategy that we're employing? And

301
00:10:53,254 --> 00:10:54,774
I don't I don't say that to then

302
00:10:54,774 --> 00:10:56,934
shame the therapist because I had done that.

303
00:10:56,934 --> 00:10:58,394
I want to own that

304
00:10:58,889 --> 00:11:01,709
earlier in my career, I was that guy.

305
00:11:01,769 --> 00:11:04,569
I was. And guess what? The ladies loved

306
00:11:04,569 --> 00:11:05,069
it.

307
00:11:06,089 --> 00:11:08,169
Okay? And and I'm not gonna pretend like

308
00:11:08,169 --> 00:11:09,610
that wasn't a part of it because they're

309
00:11:09,610 --> 00:11:11,449
like, they see me standing up for them

310
00:11:11,449 --> 00:11:13,345
and coming hard against him, and he's the

311
00:11:13,345 --> 00:11:15,264
villain in this all this. Okay. But here's

312
00:11:15,264 --> 00:11:15,924
the deal.

313
00:11:17,585 --> 00:11:18,945
I've got a I've got a four and

314
00:11:18,945 --> 00:11:20,384
a half year old at home, almost five

315
00:11:20,384 --> 00:11:21,365
year old. Okay?

316
00:11:22,065 --> 00:11:22,965
The other day,

317
00:11:23,424 --> 00:11:24,804
my wife was out of town,

318
00:11:25,930 --> 00:11:27,950
and, I was in my bedroom.

319
00:11:28,490 --> 00:11:29,470
And they were

320
00:11:29,850 --> 00:11:32,490
across the hall playing in my other daughter's

321
00:11:32,490 --> 00:11:34,990
room, and I can hear what's going on.

322
00:11:35,210 --> 00:11:36,970
And the older one, the the the almost

323
00:11:36,970 --> 00:11:38,730
five year old is manipulating the two and

324
00:11:38,730 --> 00:11:40,090
a half year old. I can hear it

325
00:11:40,090 --> 00:11:42,455
happening. Okay? Because she wants the toy. The

326
00:11:42,455 --> 00:11:43,735
older one wants the toy that the young

327
00:11:43,735 --> 00:11:45,914
one has and all this. And and finally,

328
00:11:46,375 --> 00:11:48,134
MJ is the older one. She just took

329
00:11:48,134 --> 00:11:50,534
the toy. I heard this happen. Right? And,

330
00:11:50,534 --> 00:11:53,674
of course, Lottie's upset. I walk in there,

331
00:11:54,134 --> 00:11:55,754
and I say, what's going on?

332
00:11:57,129 --> 00:11:59,210
And lot and and MJ, the older one

333
00:11:59,210 --> 00:11:59,710
says,

334
00:12:00,250 --> 00:12:02,009
oh, she and starts to lie to me.

335
00:12:02,009 --> 00:12:05,149
And I say, hold up. I heard everything.

336
00:12:06,409 --> 00:12:07,230
What happened?

337
00:12:07,610 --> 00:12:09,210
And she goes into it again. Well, she

338
00:12:09,210 --> 00:12:11,370
did it. I said, no, baby. I heard

339
00:12:11,370 --> 00:12:13,715
what happened. You took that toy from her.

340
00:12:13,715 --> 00:12:15,475
She had it first, and you took it

341
00:12:15,475 --> 00:12:17,315
from her. And that's not what we do.

342
00:12:17,315 --> 00:12:18,215
That's not right.

343
00:12:18,595 --> 00:12:21,254
And my daughter, her eyes went from wide

344
00:12:21,634 --> 00:12:23,254
to she just collapsed.

345
00:12:23,715 --> 00:12:26,455
Her head she hung her head. Her shoulders

346
00:12:26,514 --> 00:12:27,014
dropped.

347
00:12:27,759 --> 00:12:29,199
And what was the next thing I did?

348
00:12:29,199 --> 00:12:30,500
I walked over to

349
00:12:30,959 --> 00:12:33,039
her, and I scooped her up. Mhmm. And

350
00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:34,259
I said, hey. Listen.

351
00:12:34,799 --> 00:12:38,259
I love you. It's okay. You're okay. Sister

352
00:12:38,319 --> 00:12:40,659
loves you. You love her. We're learning.

353
00:12:41,154 --> 00:12:42,674
You know? We just don't wanna treat each

354
00:12:42,674 --> 00:12:44,754
other that way. Okay? And she hugged me

355
00:12:44,754 --> 00:12:46,754
back, and I said, do you wanna say

356
00:12:46,754 --> 00:12:48,754
anything to your little sister? And she said,

357
00:12:48,754 --> 00:12:50,995
I'm sorry, Lottie. And sister gave her a

358
00:12:50,995 --> 00:12:53,154
hug, and, hey, we're good to go. Right?

359
00:12:53,154 --> 00:12:55,335
Back up. Okay. Now here's what's critical there.

360
00:12:55,649 --> 00:12:57,110
Her little nervous system

361
00:12:57,730 --> 00:12:58,870
is still being developed.

362
00:12:59,970 --> 00:13:02,230
And and there there's all kinds of developmental

363
00:13:02,289 --> 00:13:04,049
neuroscience to back that up what I'm about

364
00:13:04,049 --> 00:13:04,629
to say.

365
00:13:05,569 --> 00:13:08,069
Her nervous system, she went into shame.

366
00:13:08,414 --> 00:13:10,334
When I disciplined her, she went into shame.

367
00:13:10,334 --> 00:13:11,315
She had a collapse

368
00:13:11,934 --> 00:13:13,934
in internally. You could see it in her

369
00:13:13,934 --> 00:13:14,914
body. She collapsed.

370
00:13:15,855 --> 00:13:16,355
Then

371
00:13:17,774 --> 00:13:20,190
I came in and my nervous system

372
00:13:20,509 --> 00:13:21,009
upregulated

373
00:13:21,389 --> 00:13:22,370
her out of that,

374
00:13:22,830 --> 00:13:24,830
brought her back up into her window of

375
00:13:24,830 --> 00:13:26,850
tolerance, back up whole brain online.

376
00:13:28,269 --> 00:13:30,269
Her nervous system cannot do that on its

377
00:13:30,269 --> 00:13:32,990
own. It is the repeated experience of me

378
00:13:32,990 --> 00:13:35,149
doing that, her mother doing that, her teachers

379
00:13:35,149 --> 00:13:36,129
doing that. Right?

380
00:13:37,095 --> 00:13:37,595
Until

381
00:13:38,375 --> 00:13:40,134
her nervous system can do it on its

382
00:13:40,134 --> 00:13:41,674
own. Mhmm. What happens

383
00:13:42,215 --> 00:13:44,634
to the person whose parents came in,

384
00:13:45,335 --> 00:13:47,355
made the correction, but never

385
00:13:47,654 --> 00:13:51,059
made the repair? Mhmm. Never upregulated them. That's

386
00:13:51,059 --> 00:13:53,160
this guy I'm talking about. Deficit.

387
00:13:53,540 --> 00:13:54,840
Mhmm. It's a deficit.

388
00:13:55,220 --> 00:13:55,960
The capacity

389
00:13:56,340 --> 00:13:58,279
to upregulate out of shame

390
00:13:58,660 --> 00:14:01,240
was not built into him. Mhmm.

391
00:14:01,779 --> 00:14:03,540
So this is not a guy who is

392
00:14:03,540 --> 00:14:05,754
just making it about himself. Well, I think

393
00:14:05,754 --> 00:14:07,834
you hate to I hate to interrupt, but

394
00:14:07,834 --> 00:14:09,674
I think you you left something out there,

395
00:14:09,674 --> 00:14:11,695
which is most of the time,

396
00:14:12,235 --> 00:14:14,475
it doesn't it doesn't end and there's not

397
00:14:14,475 --> 00:14:16,634
no repair. I would say I would say

398
00:14:16,634 --> 00:14:19,054
90 plus percent of the time, there's additional

399
00:14:19,274 --> 00:14:19,740
shame.

400
00:14:20,139 --> 00:14:23,279
There's punishments, there's how could you do this,

401
00:14:23,820 --> 00:14:25,820
you know, you're you're a liar Doesn't matter

402
00:14:25,820 --> 00:14:28,299
with you. Right exactly. So now, not only

403
00:14:28,299 --> 00:14:30,480
are we not doing repair and teaching healthy,

404
00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:31,600
regulation

405
00:14:32,139 --> 00:14:32,639
strategies,

406
00:14:33,105 --> 00:14:36,225
we're we're actually insinuating that anytime you do

407
00:14:36,225 --> 00:14:39,584
something like this and, and get caught, you

408
00:14:39,584 --> 00:14:41,284
you need to shrink. You need to withdraw.

409
00:14:41,345 --> 00:14:43,184
You need to escape. You need Right. Right?

410
00:14:43,184 --> 00:14:44,164
And so, again,

411
00:14:44,784 --> 00:14:45,365
you know,

412
00:14:45,745 --> 00:14:47,264
I think the audience can kinda see where

413
00:14:47,264 --> 00:14:48,940
we're getting at with this is if this

414
00:14:48,940 --> 00:14:50,079
happened to this,

415
00:14:50,459 --> 00:14:52,779
person and happened for their first eighteen years

416
00:14:52,779 --> 00:14:53,519
of their life,

417
00:14:53,980 --> 00:14:56,059
now when they're confronted with this situation, you're

418
00:14:56,059 --> 00:14:58,699
what? You're expecting him to arguably do the

419
00:14:58,699 --> 00:15:00,299
most horrific thing he's ever done to the

420
00:15:00,299 --> 00:15:02,815
person that he loves most with consequences that

421
00:15:02,815 --> 00:15:06,174
are more dire than probably any consequences he's

422
00:15:06,174 --> 00:15:08,174
ever gonna face in his entire life. And

423
00:15:08,174 --> 00:15:09,455
now he's sitting in his place, and you're

424
00:15:09,455 --> 00:15:11,535
expecting him to show up with what I

425
00:15:11,535 --> 00:15:14,915
would argue 10 out of 10 emotional intelligence,

426
00:15:15,295 --> 00:15:17,075
self awareness, social awareness.

427
00:15:18,309 --> 00:15:19,350
I don't know, man. I don't know a

428
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:21,190
lot of guys who can operate at that

429
00:15:21,190 --> 00:15:22,089
peak capacity

430
00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:24,549
in my opinion. It it's tough. And and

431
00:15:24,549 --> 00:15:27,190
and it it there is another complicating factor

432
00:15:27,190 --> 00:15:28,169
to add to it

433
00:15:28,789 --> 00:15:29,289
where

434
00:15:30,245 --> 00:15:32,404
what happens so many of us, what we

435
00:15:32,404 --> 00:15:34,664
do is and all of this is nonconscious.

436
00:15:34,804 --> 00:15:37,865
Okay? I'm not saying anybody's doing this purposefully,

437
00:15:38,485 --> 00:15:40,105
but we intuitively

438
00:15:40,804 --> 00:15:43,740
know where our deficits are. Okay. So if

439
00:15:43,740 --> 00:15:45,759
I'm a man who has a deficit around

440
00:15:46,139 --> 00:15:48,379
upregulating from shame, shame I don't have a

441
00:15:48,379 --> 00:15:49,440
lot of shame resilience.

442
00:15:50,379 --> 00:15:52,399
What that is like is it subconsciously,

443
00:15:52,779 --> 00:15:54,620
it's like if I fall in that hole,

444
00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:56,704
I can't climb out. Mhmm. And so now

445
00:15:56,704 --> 00:15:58,704
I'm a failure. So see the spiral, how

446
00:15:58,704 --> 00:16:00,404
it just adds to the sense of shame?

447
00:16:00,464 --> 00:16:02,544
So what am I gonna do if I

448
00:16:02,544 --> 00:16:04,324
feel myself headed there?

449
00:16:04,704 --> 00:16:07,184
I'm going to defend against it. So now

450
00:16:07,184 --> 00:16:08,279
what we have is

451
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,139
a situation where

452
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,779
I use a defense mechanism

453
00:16:13,639 --> 00:16:17,500
to protect a deficit I have. Mhmm. Okay?

454
00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:19,800
So I feel this can come in on

455
00:16:19,879 --> 00:16:21,560
much often though when you say I mean

456
00:16:21,639 --> 00:16:24,175
right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sometimes someone just

457
00:16:24,175 --> 00:16:26,335
falls in that hole, and it's that first

458
00:16:26,335 --> 00:16:28,335
scenario that I played out where, okay, she

459
00:16:28,335 --> 00:16:30,254
just she just put her pain out there

460
00:16:30,254 --> 00:16:31,855
and he just goes silent and he's sort

461
00:16:31,855 --> 00:16:33,394
of in this internal collapse.

462
00:16:33,774 --> 00:16:36,254
Sometimes that's it. But more often than not,

463
00:16:36,254 --> 00:16:36,915
what happens?

464
00:16:37,779 --> 00:16:39,940
He feels it coming on nonconsciously, he feels

465
00:16:39,940 --> 00:16:41,299
it coming on. What does he start to

466
00:16:41,299 --> 00:16:42,120
do? Mhmm.

467
00:16:42,740 --> 00:16:43,240
Denial,

468
00:16:43,860 --> 00:16:44,360
projection,

469
00:16:44,980 --> 00:16:45,480
rationalization,

470
00:16:46,179 --> 00:16:46,679
displacement,

471
00:16:47,299 --> 00:16:48,600
regression, repression.

472
00:16:49,220 --> 00:16:51,460
So Especially my especially my population, you know,

473
00:16:51,460 --> 00:16:53,524
high high you know, success high achieving men.

474
00:16:53,524 --> 00:16:56,565
Yeah. You know, we we are, you know,

475
00:16:56,565 --> 00:16:58,584
part of successful nail culture is,

476
00:16:59,684 --> 00:17:01,944
protect image at all costs. Right? Absolutely.

477
00:17:02,725 --> 00:17:04,505
So so I nonconsciously

478
00:17:04,884 --> 00:17:07,349
now go to I'm gonna pick apart the

479
00:17:07,349 --> 00:17:08,950
details of what you said. That was a

480
00:17:08,950 --> 00:17:10,330
Tuesday, not a Thursday.

481
00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:13,450
It was only four times, not five times.

482
00:17:13,670 --> 00:17:14,170
Right?

483
00:17:14,470 --> 00:17:17,049
I'm gonna go to these other defense mechanisms

484
00:17:17,830 --> 00:17:18,330
because

485
00:17:19,615 --> 00:17:20,115
intuitively,

486
00:17:20,494 --> 00:17:21,714
deep down, I know

487
00:17:23,054 --> 00:17:24,494
I I can't do the same thing. And

488
00:17:24,494 --> 00:17:27,375
I'm and I'm failure aversive. That's another male

489
00:17:27,375 --> 00:17:29,934
thing. Right? We can't fail. We can't be

490
00:17:29,934 --> 00:17:32,335
weak. When the reality is, look, we all

491
00:17:32,414 --> 00:17:33,315
we're all imperfect.

492
00:17:33,929 --> 00:17:36,409
Right? But my god, if I feel like

493
00:17:36,409 --> 00:17:37,710
I can't be imperfect,

494
00:17:38,809 --> 00:17:40,990
then I have to be dishonest about it

495
00:17:41,369 --> 00:17:44,009
because the reality is we're all imperfect. Mhmm.

496
00:17:44,009 --> 00:17:46,970
Mhmm. It's a it's a the as you're

497
00:17:46,970 --> 00:17:47,470
speaking,

498
00:17:47,875 --> 00:17:49,315
you know, I hope the couples listening to

499
00:17:49,315 --> 00:17:51,815
this can hear the complexity. Right? It's

500
00:17:52,194 --> 00:17:53,335
a, you know, the

501
00:17:53,714 --> 00:17:55,875
the very partner who has been betrayed in

502
00:17:55,875 --> 00:17:57,234
in yeah. I mean, this is just so

503
00:17:57,234 --> 00:17:58,914
ugly. You know, when you really think about

504
00:17:58,914 --> 00:18:00,375
what this does to these ladies,

505
00:18:01,049 --> 00:18:03,069
I mean, it rips them to pieces in

506
00:18:03,289 --> 00:18:06,490
almost every dynamic of of of humanity possible.

507
00:18:06,490 --> 00:18:09,630
Oh, yeah. Physical appearance, their their desirability,

508
00:18:10,009 --> 00:18:12,409
their performance in bed, their I mean, it's

509
00:18:12,409 --> 00:18:13,994
just it's just, you know, so here's this

510
00:18:13,994 --> 00:18:16,394
person who who has been attacked in pretty

511
00:18:16,394 --> 00:18:18,715
much every way possible by your actions.

512
00:18:19,195 --> 00:18:19,855
And then,

513
00:18:20,474 --> 00:18:22,234
you here's you over here who,

514
00:18:22,555 --> 00:18:24,234
doesn't even really you know, you're you're pretty

515
00:18:24,234 --> 00:18:26,555
solid at cognitive empathy, but like the other

516
00:18:26,555 --> 00:18:29,039
areas of empathy, you know, it's, you know,

517
00:18:29,039 --> 00:18:31,360
statistically, they're they're probably poorly developed. You know,

518
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:33,120
it's very rare that you meet a man.

519
00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:34,960
You know, Jake, you're an exception when, you

520
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,640
know, and I feel you. You can do

521
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,559
all three really, really well, but that's that's

522
00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:38,960
just,

523
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:40,640
you know, I admire you for that. But

524
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,035
I would say that's statistically not common. Right?

525
00:18:43,035 --> 00:18:44,654
But then on top of that, you have

526
00:18:45,035 --> 00:18:47,994
wounds of especially men I find, and this

527
00:18:47,994 --> 00:18:49,035
is I I hear this all the time.

528
00:18:49,035 --> 00:18:50,494
I'll get emails from partners,

529
00:18:51,355 --> 00:18:53,755
who don't want their husbands to join my

530
00:18:53,755 --> 00:18:56,174
program because they're like, you're too supportive.

531
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:57,920
They need boot camp.

532
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,480
You know, you oh, you're taking them out

533
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,359
for these intensives and they're they're bonding and,

534
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:04,420
having this,

535
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,160
you know, I I say right on my

536
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,640
website, recovery needs to be fun and engaging

537
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,400
and mentally stimulating. I say it right on

538
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,255
there, and they'll attack me for that. No.

539
00:19:12,255 --> 00:19:13,315
It does not.

540
00:19:13,934 --> 00:19:15,775
You should see my husband. When I say

541
00:19:15,775 --> 00:19:18,174
this, he's such a coward. He he you

542
00:19:18,174 --> 00:19:19,535
know, I'll I'll tear him to pieces, and

543
00:19:19,535 --> 00:19:20,994
he'll just sit there and,

544
00:19:21,295 --> 00:19:23,214
slump down. He won't say anything. He needs

545
00:19:23,214 --> 00:19:25,289
to he needs this. He needs that. And

546
00:19:25,289 --> 00:19:27,210
it's always I never respond to those emails,

547
00:19:27,210 --> 00:19:28,890
by the way, because it's not gonna go

548
00:19:28,890 --> 00:19:30,809
well when I do. But I just I

549
00:19:30,809 --> 00:19:32,570
hope for all the couples listening to this,

550
00:19:32,570 --> 00:19:34,250
what a mess. Right? What a mess. We

551
00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:36,890
have somebody hurt in the most atrocious ways

552
00:19:36,890 --> 00:19:37,390
possible.

553
00:19:37,690 --> 00:19:39,710
We got a guy over here who arguably

554
00:19:40,009 --> 00:19:40,509
is

555
00:19:41,014 --> 00:19:43,095
really just not great at any of the

556
00:19:43,095 --> 00:19:44,855
things that he really needs to be great

557
00:19:44,855 --> 00:19:47,174
at in this in this moment in time.

558
00:19:47,174 --> 00:19:48,394
And then we have people

559
00:19:49,014 --> 00:19:52,394
fighting about the very deficits and defending,

560
00:19:52,934 --> 00:19:54,799
the deficits. And I think the thing that

561
00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:56,559
really became so clear in the beginning of

562
00:19:56,559 --> 00:19:59,920
this, Jake, is how normal and human all

563
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,480
of this is. A hurt individual over here

564
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,400
and then a very scared person that is

565
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,740
wondering, do I even know how to do

566
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,984
what all these therapists and all these podcasts

567
00:20:08,984 --> 00:20:10,605
are telling me how to how to do?

568
00:20:10,744 --> 00:20:12,744
It is gosh, Jake. What a what a

569
00:20:12,744 --> 00:20:14,525
what a what a difficult situation

570
00:20:14,984 --> 00:20:16,605
to be in where you're

571
00:20:17,144 --> 00:20:19,484
trying not to be defensive, but you feel

572
00:20:19,704 --> 00:20:21,785
like people are kind of poking on an

573
00:20:21,785 --> 00:20:22,845
area that,

574
00:20:23,369 --> 00:20:24,970
frankly, you just don't know how to do.

575
00:20:24,970 --> 00:20:26,490
And, you know, I think that the challenge

576
00:20:26,490 --> 00:20:27,549
for me with deficit,

577
00:20:28,170 --> 00:20:28,990
Jake, is,

578
00:20:29,450 --> 00:20:30,970
I see a lot of quitting these guys

579
00:20:30,970 --> 00:20:32,650
after a while. Sure. You know, if if

580
00:20:32,650 --> 00:20:35,309
we keep hitting the deficit and Sure.

581
00:20:35,644 --> 00:20:37,264
Treating it like they are being

582
00:20:37,565 --> 00:20:40,704
defensive, maladaptive, manipulative, narcissistic, whatever,

583
00:20:41,085 --> 00:20:43,085
eventually, the guys quit. So I think the

584
00:20:43,085 --> 00:20:44,764
reason I was so passionate about bringing you

585
00:20:44,764 --> 00:20:45,825
on here was,

586
00:20:47,244 --> 00:20:48,845
I hate saying this, but, man, there there's

587
00:20:48,845 --> 00:20:50,524
so many guys who come into my program

588
00:20:50,524 --> 00:20:52,100
who are there's a lot of quitting them,

589
00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:53,779
and it's and it's really sad that it's

590
00:20:53,779 --> 00:20:55,380
gotten to that point. But it's but it's

591
00:20:55,380 --> 00:20:57,299
not because they don't love their wives anymore.

592
00:20:57,299 --> 00:20:58,580
It's not because they don't wanna try to

593
00:20:58,580 --> 00:21:00,259
find a way to make it work. They're

594
00:21:00,259 --> 00:21:02,840
just tired of having their deficits

595
00:21:03,380 --> 00:21:03,880
attacked,

596
00:21:04,664 --> 00:21:07,865
because they they feel this, human desire to

597
00:21:07,945 --> 00:21:09,945
can you can you sympathize with me? Can

598
00:21:09,945 --> 00:21:11,625
you help me do this? Can you can

599
00:21:11,625 --> 00:21:13,065
you work with me while I get better

600
00:21:13,065 --> 00:21:13,725
at this?

601
00:21:14,585 --> 00:21:15,625
I I just want you to speak to

602
00:21:15,625 --> 00:21:17,065
all that because I think when I said

603
00:21:17,065 --> 00:21:18,664
in the beginning of the podcast, this really

604
00:21:18,664 --> 00:21:21,609
harms the relational recovery. That's what I mean

605
00:21:21,609 --> 00:21:24,430
by this is there's just this disconnect of

606
00:21:24,730 --> 00:21:25,549
man up.

607
00:21:26,009 --> 00:21:27,289
You're supposed to be doing all these things

608
00:21:27,289 --> 00:21:29,130
I've heard in the podcasts. And then this

609
00:21:29,130 --> 00:21:31,210
guy over here which is like, honey, I

610
00:21:31,210 --> 00:21:33,825
want to, but, I'm, you know, I'm really

611
00:21:33,884 --> 00:21:36,765
don't like being around you, talking to you.

612
00:21:36,765 --> 00:21:39,005
I hate going to couples therapy because I

613
00:21:39,005 --> 00:21:41,404
just feel like all it is is you

614
00:21:41,404 --> 00:21:43,424
beating me up on something that I frankly

615
00:21:43,484 --> 00:21:45,325
just don't know how to do. And I'm

616
00:21:45,325 --> 00:21:47,244
I'm scared I might never know how to

617
00:21:47,244 --> 00:21:49,079
do it because, again, one of the big

618
00:21:49,079 --> 00:21:50,680
things and this is, you know, I don't

619
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,039
know how the ladies will feel about this,

620
00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:52,859
but this

621
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,440
this field has this,

622
00:21:54,839 --> 00:21:57,320
I feel, this overemphasis on, hey. If you

623
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:58,299
can just empathize

624
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,625
in this really meaningful way, then everything will

625
00:22:01,625 --> 00:22:03,704
get better. And, I don't know if that's

626
00:22:03,704 --> 00:22:05,625
true or not. I I have my doubts,

627
00:22:05,944 --> 00:22:07,884
that it will be as miraculous as everyone

628
00:22:08,024 --> 00:22:10,105
says. I think it'll help. But I think

629
00:22:10,105 --> 00:22:11,865
that it's just a scary thing because these

630
00:22:11,865 --> 00:22:14,024
guys are like, crap. Can I even get

631
00:22:14,024 --> 00:22:14,845
to this place

632
00:22:15,420 --> 00:22:17,100
where we can heal this to be better

633
00:22:17,100 --> 00:22:18,619
than we were before? I'd love you to

634
00:22:18,619 --> 00:22:20,720
speak on that because I find this division

635
00:22:20,779 --> 00:22:22,779
and it just keeps splitting couples and splitting

636
00:22:22,779 --> 00:22:25,259
couples further and further and further. And there

637
00:22:25,259 --> 00:22:26,619
is a point of, I'm not gonna say

638
00:22:26,619 --> 00:22:27,740
a point of no return, but there is

639
00:22:27,740 --> 00:22:29,200
a point where you're so split.

640
00:22:29,855 --> 00:22:31,455
I mean, gosh, it takes everything you have

641
00:22:31,455 --> 00:22:33,055
to come back together. And I think a

642
00:22:33,055 --> 00:22:35,394
lot of what we're talking about today contributes

643
00:22:35,455 --> 00:22:37,455
to that split even though we're it's the

644
00:22:37,455 --> 00:22:39,215
irony of it all is, Jake, we're trying

645
00:22:39,215 --> 00:22:40,035
to come together

646
00:22:40,494 --> 00:22:42,670
through this work and it's splitting people. Yeah.

647
00:22:42,670 --> 00:22:45,390
And I've gotten emails from partners who they

648
00:22:45,390 --> 00:22:47,390
hear me teach on this subject, and they

649
00:22:47,390 --> 00:22:49,970
say, oh my goodness. Thank you.

650
00:22:50,750 --> 00:22:53,470
That actually helps me make sense of my

651
00:22:53,470 --> 00:22:53,970
experience.

652
00:22:54,750 --> 00:22:57,809
It actually helps me understand what's going on,

653
00:22:58,275 --> 00:23:00,835
you know, in my partner, opposite me in

654
00:23:00,835 --> 00:23:02,855
these couple sessions or in these conversations.

655
00:23:03,394 --> 00:23:05,575
And so I think it can bring relief

656
00:23:05,634 --> 00:23:08,674
on both sides. Mhmm. I agree. Because because

657
00:23:08,674 --> 00:23:10,674
when we when we have a more robust

658
00:23:10,674 --> 00:23:12,055
understanding of reality,

659
00:23:13,099 --> 00:23:14,320
things just go better.

660
00:23:15,180 --> 00:23:17,359
Being reality based leads

661
00:23:17,740 --> 00:23:18,640
to better

662
00:23:19,340 --> 00:23:21,820
mental health and clarity and happiness and all

663
00:23:21,820 --> 00:23:23,500
of that kind of stuff. And and this

664
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:27,180
is reality. Reality is every person we deal

665
00:23:27,180 --> 00:23:29,044
with, there's gonna be a mixture

666
00:23:29,345 --> 00:23:32,404
of defenses and deficits and variations of capacity

667
00:23:32,464 --> 00:23:33,605
in various realms.

668
00:23:34,065 --> 00:23:36,784
There there's there's a both end to this

669
00:23:36,784 --> 00:23:37,765
topic, though.

670
00:23:38,625 --> 00:23:40,005
And it is that

671
00:23:40,464 --> 00:23:42,085
right. On one side,

672
00:23:43,559 --> 00:23:45,799
everything's treated with the hammer. It's all the

673
00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:47,720
man up. It's all that. On the other

674
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,559
side, you could say, oh, well, look. That's

675
00:23:49,559 --> 00:23:51,559
a deficit. He, you know, he just doesn't

676
00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:54,619
have that capacity, so lay off. Right?

677
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,700
And and here's what I say.

678
00:23:57,845 --> 00:23:59,384
The moment I recognize

679
00:24:00,484 --> 00:24:02,585
that there's a deficit that I have,

680
00:24:03,045 --> 00:24:05,445
I now have a choice. Mhmm. Do I

681
00:24:05,445 --> 00:24:08,184
wanna work on that or not? Mhmm. And

682
00:24:09,845 --> 00:24:10,585
I believe

683
00:24:11,819 --> 00:24:12,319
that

684
00:24:13,019 --> 00:24:14,220
99%

685
00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:17,039
of the time, there can be growth. Mhmm.

686
00:24:17,099 --> 00:24:19,359
There can be expansion of capacity.

687
00:24:19,740 --> 00:24:21,679
There are some rare circumstances

688
00:24:22,059 --> 00:24:24,859
where there are maybe genetically based issues or

689
00:24:24,859 --> 00:24:26,399
traumatic brain injury

690
00:24:26,944 --> 00:24:29,904
issues or or certain very, very rare and

691
00:24:29,904 --> 00:24:31,424
I hate even bringing this up because then

692
00:24:31,424 --> 00:24:32,884
I it becomes like an excuse.

693
00:24:33,424 --> 00:24:34,964
Some very rare,

694
00:24:35,345 --> 00:24:36,484
expressions of neurodivergence

695
00:24:37,265 --> 00:24:37,765
where

696
00:24:38,144 --> 00:24:40,065
that's it. That's it. It's not gonna get

697
00:24:40,065 --> 00:24:41,204
beyond this baseline.

698
00:24:41,819 --> 00:24:44,059
But most of the time, there can be

699
00:24:44,059 --> 00:24:47,339
some growth. Mhmm. I'm not promising everybody becomes

700
00:24:47,339 --> 00:24:48,240
mister empathy.

701
00:24:48,940 --> 00:24:50,859
Okay? But there can be some growth. And

702
00:24:50,859 --> 00:24:52,319
and in most cases,

703
00:24:53,579 --> 00:24:55,919
betrayed the betrayed partners I've worked with,

704
00:24:57,384 --> 00:24:59,704
they know their husbands. I I'll tell you

705
00:24:59,704 --> 00:25:01,464
a a story that happened one time. I

706
00:25:01,464 --> 00:25:02,765
was working with this couple,

707
00:25:03,384 --> 00:25:04,365
and this guy,

708
00:25:05,224 --> 00:25:07,884
had the assignment of writing an emotional restitution

709
00:25:08,105 --> 00:25:08,605
letter.

710
00:25:08,904 --> 00:25:10,664
Okay? And this is gonna be a stretch

711
00:25:10,664 --> 00:25:12,240
for him. This is a guy who,

712
00:25:13,039 --> 00:25:15,299
I mean, we were working the empathy thing

713
00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:17,679
hard. We were, you know, like real and

714
00:25:17,679 --> 00:25:19,920
he wanted to. He was just he had

715
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:20,660
a severe

716
00:25:21,519 --> 00:25:22,019
deficit

717
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:23,779
that he was starting from.

718
00:25:24,615 --> 00:25:26,555
And they came in the session,

719
00:25:27,015 --> 00:25:28,375
and, you know, I get the whole thing

720
00:25:28,375 --> 00:25:30,454
set up. And, okay, he reads his letter,

721
00:25:30,454 --> 00:25:31,835
and I'm sitting there,

722
00:25:32,134 --> 00:25:34,954
and I am thinking this is bombing. Mhmm.

723
00:25:35,174 --> 00:25:37,515
She is going to come unglued

724
00:25:38,694 --> 00:25:40,315
when we get done with this thing.

725
00:25:40,829 --> 00:25:43,150
And I'm just bracing. I am just I'm,

726
00:25:43,150 --> 00:25:45,410
like, dreading where this was gonna head.

727
00:25:46,190 --> 00:25:47,970
And so it's over,

728
00:25:48,910 --> 00:25:51,390
and I asked him, hey. What was that

729
00:25:51,390 --> 00:25:53,410
like to read? And he said, it was

730
00:25:53,595 --> 00:25:55,914
it was meaningful to me. You know? I'm

731
00:25:55,914 --> 00:25:57,914
I'm so glad I did this and got

732
00:25:57,914 --> 00:25:58,974
to read this to her.

733
00:25:59,355 --> 00:26:00,794
And I turned to her and I said,

734
00:26:00,794 --> 00:26:02,734
okay. How how was that for you?

735
00:26:03,115 --> 00:26:05,755
And she burst into tears, and she said,

736
00:26:05,755 --> 00:26:08,234
thank you. Thank you. Mhmm. And here's what

737
00:26:08,234 --> 00:26:08,894
I forgot.

738
00:26:09,559 --> 00:26:11,819
She knows her husband better than I do.

739
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,819
Mhmm. She recognized that for him Mhmm. Mhmm.

740
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:17,259
It was exceptional.

741
00:26:17,799 --> 00:26:19,720
Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Because when I compare

742
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,339
myself to you, Jake,

743
00:26:21,914 --> 00:26:23,995
I feel like just a turd. Right? Like,

744
00:26:23,995 --> 00:26:25,795
the my my my, like, my my my,

745
00:26:25,795 --> 00:26:26,975
like, my, like, my, like,

746
00:26:27,434 --> 00:26:28,634
120%

747
00:26:28,634 --> 00:26:30,875
empathy is, like, on the Jake scale is,

748
00:26:30,875 --> 00:26:32,795
like, a 1.2. Your wife would, like, if

749
00:26:32,795 --> 00:26:34,555
your wife was Marty Meechie, like, this guy

750
00:26:34,555 --> 00:26:36,539
is a total loser. I'm leaving him. But

751
00:26:36,539 --> 00:26:38,940
to your point, if I did like a

752
00:26:38,940 --> 00:26:40,320
four on the Jake scale,

753
00:26:40,779 --> 00:26:43,180
that would be like a 12 on the

754
00:26:43,180 --> 00:26:45,340
Roland scale. And my, you know, my again,

755
00:26:45,340 --> 00:26:47,980
my wife would so appreciate the effort because

756
00:26:47,980 --> 00:26:50,160
she knows Yes. Man, this is so hard.

757
00:26:50,220 --> 00:26:52,000
So I wanna I wanna dive into this

758
00:26:52,244 --> 00:26:54,744
from a specificity standpoint. I'm gonna choose

759
00:26:55,045 --> 00:26:56,805
the you can chime in as well. I'm

760
00:26:56,805 --> 00:26:58,724
gonna speak on the guy's standpoint. I never

761
00:26:58,724 --> 00:27:00,644
mess with the lady's standpoint ever. I'm gonna

762
00:27:00,644 --> 00:27:02,164
have you do that. So let's talk about,

763
00:27:02,164 --> 00:27:03,305
like, a a tool

764
00:27:04,005 --> 00:27:06,930
here. So for my wife and I, I

765
00:27:06,930 --> 00:27:08,070
have to do it retroactively.

766
00:27:08,849 --> 00:27:10,930
I one day, I hope I can do

767
00:27:10,930 --> 00:27:11,910
things proactively.

768
00:27:12,690 --> 00:27:13,910
I'm just not at a,

769
00:27:14,609 --> 00:27:16,529
you know, my wounds are just still too

770
00:27:16,529 --> 00:27:18,930
unhealed to to do it proactively. So what

771
00:27:18,930 --> 00:27:20,775
do I mean by this, guys? So let's

772
00:27:20,775 --> 00:27:22,394
say something doesn't go well,

773
00:27:23,975 --> 00:27:26,134
and, hopefully, you and your partner have gotten

774
00:27:26,134 --> 00:27:27,414
to a point where you guys have drawn

775
00:27:27,414 --> 00:27:29,095
some boundaries and started to realize this. And

776
00:27:29,095 --> 00:27:31,275
this is so important in betrayal because

777
00:27:31,575 --> 00:27:32,634
things can go

778
00:27:32,934 --> 00:27:35,250
so unproductively, and you guys need to start

779
00:27:35,569 --> 00:27:38,450
sensing when that's happening and have agreements on,

780
00:27:38,450 --> 00:27:40,769
hey. It's okay to call it and walk

781
00:27:40,769 --> 00:27:41,970
away for a little bit. You guys need

782
00:27:41,970 --> 00:27:43,809
to do that. It's so hard for couples

783
00:27:43,809 --> 00:27:46,450
because there's always one couple one person that

784
00:27:46,450 --> 00:27:49,184
doesn't want it to end, you know, they're

785
00:27:49,184 --> 00:27:51,184
like, oh, of course, just walk away, write

786
00:27:51,184 --> 00:27:52,164
the classic comment.

787
00:27:52,545 --> 00:27:54,865
So anyways, so so you guys have separated

788
00:27:54,865 --> 00:27:56,625
for a second. You're starting to recognize that

789
00:27:56,625 --> 00:27:58,884
this conversation is becoming unproductive.

790
00:27:59,825 --> 00:28:02,065
I'm gonna, guys, what I have chosen to

791
00:28:02,065 --> 00:28:03,910
do is I'll sit down and I'll actually

792
00:28:03,910 --> 00:28:05,450
bust out my computer and

793
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:07,830
I'll do a quick little, we have a

794
00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:09,769
formula we use in my recovery groups.

795
00:28:10,309 --> 00:28:11,750
So what I encourage the guys to do

796
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:14,549
is work that formula and then go into,

797
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:15,750
we have an app that we use to

798
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:18,684
communicate with the groups, They'll go into there.

799
00:28:18,684 --> 00:28:20,384
They'll express this to the guys.

800
00:28:20,765 --> 00:28:21,424
The guys,

801
00:28:22,045 --> 00:28:23,565
may or may not be able to respond

802
00:28:23,565 --> 00:28:24,684
depending on the time of day when it

803
00:28:24,684 --> 00:28:25,184
happens.

804
00:28:25,644 --> 00:28:27,485
But usually, by the time you have written

805
00:28:27,485 --> 00:28:29,884
it out and you have actually articulated it

806
00:28:29,884 --> 00:28:31,259
to your recovery quote,

807
00:28:31,820 --> 00:28:33,180
And so for those guys, if you don't

808
00:28:33,180 --> 00:28:35,180
have a recovery group, gosh, this is gonna

809
00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:36,539
be really hard for you. You need you

810
00:28:36,539 --> 00:28:37,839
need a sounding board

811
00:28:38,140 --> 00:28:39,519
with with deficits.

812
00:28:39,820 --> 00:28:42,460
You need other people. You know, Einstein said

813
00:28:42,460 --> 00:28:44,460
it best. The we can't solve a problem

814
00:28:44,460 --> 00:28:45,934
with the same mind that created it. That's

815
00:28:45,934 --> 00:28:47,714
right. We need 10 other guys

816
00:28:48,015 --> 00:28:50,815
to be able to help you navigate this

817
00:28:50,815 --> 00:28:52,654
deficit. Because the truth is somebody in the

818
00:28:52,654 --> 00:28:54,894
group doesn't have that deficit, probably multiple people.

819
00:28:54,894 --> 00:28:56,095
That's right. And they'll be able to come

820
00:28:56,095 --> 00:28:57,535
and say, yeah. That's weird.

821
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,039
You know, here's here's here's another way to

822
00:29:00,039 --> 00:29:02,279
think of it. Right? So what I have

823
00:29:02,279 --> 00:29:03,880
done and, again, I'm not gonna say I'm

824
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,799
good at this, you know. My wife's probably

825
00:29:05,799 --> 00:29:07,720
gonna listen to this episode and be like,

826
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,240
you made yourself look so good.

827
00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:11,399
So what I did I did this not

828
00:29:11,399 --> 00:29:12,734
that long ago. I did this probably last

829
00:29:12,734 --> 00:29:14,095
week. I came into her room and I

830
00:29:14,095 --> 00:29:14,494
said, hey,

831
00:29:16,015 --> 00:29:18,035
when you said that to me,

832
00:29:19,055 --> 00:29:21,234
what I heard was,

833
00:29:21,775 --> 00:29:22,674
that that,

834
00:29:23,295 --> 00:29:24,194
you're disappointed

835
00:29:24,575 --> 00:29:26,434
in me. You think I'm not trying.

836
00:29:26,910 --> 00:29:28,289
You think that I don't care,

837
00:29:28,750 --> 00:29:30,670
and all that happened in my brain at

838
00:29:30,670 --> 00:29:32,109
hyper speed. And I got and I got

839
00:29:32,109 --> 00:29:35,710
super pissed off because literally today alone, I

840
00:29:35,710 --> 00:29:38,350
have been to two therapeutic interventions and then

841
00:29:38,430 --> 00:29:39,950
and I was on this this group in

842
00:29:39,950 --> 00:29:41,470
the morning. And at the gym, I listened

843
00:29:41,470 --> 00:29:42,289
to a podcast

844
00:29:42,625 --> 00:29:44,544
about this very thing. And so for you

845
00:29:44,544 --> 00:29:45,744
to come at me and say I'm not

846
00:29:45,744 --> 00:29:47,744
trying, it's like, lady, I just put four

847
00:29:47,744 --> 00:29:48,244
hours

848
00:29:48,784 --> 00:29:51,664
of my day into this today alone without

849
00:29:51,664 --> 00:29:53,765
you asking. I did it on my own

850
00:29:53,904 --> 00:29:56,065
volition. I did it because I wanna be

851
00:29:56,065 --> 00:29:58,470
a better human, a better husband. And so

852
00:29:58,470 --> 00:29:59,829
for, you know, so I told her, hey,

853
00:29:59,829 --> 00:30:01,289
when I heard you say that,

854
00:30:01,829 --> 00:30:05,029
I I heard you accusing me of of

855
00:30:05,029 --> 00:30:07,289
not trying, of not caring, of,

856
00:30:07,829 --> 00:30:08,890
being into myself,

857
00:30:09,509 --> 00:30:11,735
of not wanting to improve. And so then

858
00:30:11,735 --> 00:30:13,295
I just told her, I said, what I

859
00:30:13,295 --> 00:30:14,674
realized though was,

860
00:30:15,295 --> 00:30:17,535
you you just made that statement because you

861
00:30:17,535 --> 00:30:19,855
felt like I wasn't giving you what you

862
00:30:19,855 --> 00:30:22,815
needed. And, and instead of of staying with

863
00:30:22,815 --> 00:30:24,255
that, I made it about me and I

864
00:30:24,255 --> 00:30:25,795
got extremely defensive.

865
00:30:27,029 --> 00:30:29,110
Now what was underneath all that? A deficit

866
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:31,049
that I live with constantly of

867
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:31,850
inadequacy,

868
00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:33,769
being misunderstood.

869
00:30:34,309 --> 00:30:36,309
That's a huge one for me. I've been

870
00:30:36,309 --> 00:30:36,809
misunderstood

871
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:38,870
from what it feels like my whole life

872
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:40,994
and accused of things that I really am

873
00:30:40,994 --> 00:30:42,755
not doing my whole life. Right? So I

874
00:30:42,755 --> 00:30:45,234
felt like that was happening to me. So

875
00:30:45,234 --> 00:30:47,315
that's a strategy I've used. It's not the

876
00:30:47,315 --> 00:30:48,454
best. It's retroactive.

877
00:30:48,755 --> 00:30:50,115
I wish I could do it in real

878
00:30:50,115 --> 00:30:50,615
time.

879
00:30:51,234 --> 00:30:53,095
But for you guys who are really struggling,

880
00:30:53,390 --> 00:30:54,830
I always say, hey, better late than never

881
00:30:54,830 --> 00:30:56,049
and better sincere,

882
00:30:56,670 --> 00:30:58,029
than ever. And if you do what I

883
00:30:58,029 --> 00:31:00,850
said, journal plus hit up your recovery groups.

884
00:31:01,309 --> 00:31:03,230
You'll be pretty well equipped to come come

885
00:31:03,230 --> 00:31:05,150
to her with a with a response that

886
00:31:05,150 --> 00:31:07,674
I think she's gonna really appreciate. Jake, any

887
00:31:07,674 --> 00:31:09,115
tips on the guy and then come in

888
00:31:09,115 --> 00:31:09,934
to the ladies?

889
00:31:10,554 --> 00:31:12,315
I'd love for you to help the women

890
00:31:12,315 --> 00:31:14,954
listening to this. Sure. How do you make

891
00:31:15,034 --> 00:31:18,075
how do you decipher between defense and deficit?

892
00:31:18,075 --> 00:31:19,595
And how do you deal with both? If

893
00:31:19,595 --> 00:31:21,580
you think he is being defensive, what do

894
00:31:21,580 --> 00:31:22,779
you do about that? And then if you

895
00:31:22,779 --> 00:31:24,299
think it is a deficit, what do you

896
00:31:24,299 --> 00:31:25,420
do about that? I'd love for you to

897
00:31:25,420 --> 00:31:27,980
articulate that. Okay. Lots of good questions there.

898
00:31:27,980 --> 00:31:29,820
I wanna I wanna first talk about what

899
00:31:29,820 --> 00:31:31,279
you your your strategy.

900
00:31:31,740 --> 00:31:33,900
And and what I wanna explain is that

901
00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:35,119
when you go away

902
00:31:35,625 --> 00:31:38,204
to yourself and you start writing this out,

903
00:31:38,664 --> 00:31:39,644
you are immediately

904
00:31:40,105 --> 00:31:43,065
turning your frontal lobe back on. Mhmm. So

905
00:31:43,065 --> 00:31:45,305
the part of your brain that is able

906
00:31:45,305 --> 00:31:46,525
to do self reflection,

907
00:31:47,305 --> 00:31:49,244
appreciation for complexity and nuance,

908
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:50,940
social and moral reasoning.

909
00:31:51,399 --> 00:31:53,740
Doing that little journal exercise

910
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,240
is getting your frontal lobe back on, sharing

911
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:58,299
it with other people,

912
00:31:58,599 --> 00:32:00,679
getting the frontal lobe back on, connecting with

913
00:32:00,679 --> 00:32:02,779
other people. So that is huge.

914
00:32:03,134 --> 00:32:05,055
Now I wanna offer you you want some

915
00:32:05,055 --> 00:32:06,734
free coaching? I do. That's why I brought

916
00:32:06,734 --> 00:32:10,255
them up. Okay. Alright. So what I heard

917
00:32:10,255 --> 00:32:12,734
you say there, Roland, is that you walk

918
00:32:12,734 --> 00:32:14,494
around, you know, like, you know one of

919
00:32:14,494 --> 00:32:16,355
your old scripts is around, like

920
00:32:16,769 --> 00:32:19,090
like, getting blamed for things. Right? You're being

921
00:32:19,090 --> 00:32:21,650
misunderstood, and you're getting blamed for, you know,

922
00:32:21,650 --> 00:32:23,250
not doing this or that, you know, which

923
00:32:23,250 --> 00:32:24,309
is which is

924
00:32:26,130 --> 00:32:27,349
is really frustrating

925
00:32:28,130 --> 00:32:29,970
and can be really painful because it's like

926
00:32:29,970 --> 00:32:31,410
I'm not being seen. I'm not being I'm

927
00:32:31,410 --> 00:32:33,404
not known here. Right? Okay.

928
00:32:34,265 --> 00:32:35,164
And and

929
00:32:36,105 --> 00:32:38,204
so if you know that there's a deficit

930
00:32:38,585 --> 00:32:40,204
around sort of your tolerance

931
00:32:40,984 --> 00:32:44,105
of that moment of distress, okay Mhmm. Here's

932
00:32:44,105 --> 00:32:46,505
here's where I would I would push you.

933
00:32:46,505 --> 00:32:47,005
Okay?

934
00:32:47,539 --> 00:32:49,000
Next time you do that,

935
00:32:49,539 --> 00:32:51,460
when you walk back into the room with

936
00:32:51,460 --> 00:32:52,919
your wife, alright,

937
00:32:53,779 --> 00:32:55,940
lead with the second part of what you

938
00:32:55,940 --> 00:32:58,500
said. Mhmm. So start with I like that.

939
00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:01,299
Sequencing. Right? Mhmm. The sequencing. So the most

940
00:33:01,299 --> 00:33:02,919
important thing here is

941
00:33:03,914 --> 00:33:05,534
you I am recognizing

942
00:33:05,914 --> 00:33:09,514
that you were feeling this, and I missed

943
00:33:09,514 --> 00:33:12,234
it. Mhmm. Mhmm. I missed it. When you

944
00:33:12,234 --> 00:33:13,054
said that,

945
00:33:13,434 --> 00:33:15,914
I recognize you were feeling this. Take a

946
00:33:15,914 --> 00:33:18,240
step further. And it makes sense you would

947
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,460
feel that because

948
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,160
I and then take ownership because I betrayed

949
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:22,660
you.

950
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,279
Okay? Yeah. The the the the armor is

951
00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:27,460
what you're feeling. Kind of thing. Yeah. Like,

952
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,600
just do that. Okay? And now and now

953
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:30,795
here here's the thing.

954
00:33:31,595 --> 00:33:33,775
I've done then you say this to her.

955
00:33:33,835 --> 00:33:35,674
I've done some reflection on what was going

956
00:33:35,674 --> 00:33:37,674
inside of me. I'm happy to share it

957
00:33:37,674 --> 00:33:39,295
or not. The main thing

958
00:33:40,315 --> 00:33:41,695
is the main thing is

959
00:33:42,075 --> 00:33:43,529
I just want you to know I I

960
00:33:43,529 --> 00:33:45,289
see it now, and I'm sorry. Well, and

961
00:33:45,289 --> 00:33:45,690
everybody

962
00:33:46,090 --> 00:33:48,570
watch what Jake just said to me because

963
00:33:48,650 --> 00:33:49,950
and I'm just gonna vulnerably

964
00:33:50,410 --> 00:33:52,750
admit admit what happened there.

965
00:33:53,769 --> 00:33:55,369
Because because a lot of you who are

966
00:33:55,369 --> 00:33:57,369
listening probably already heard it and saw it

967
00:33:57,369 --> 00:33:58,110
in me.

968
00:33:58,444 --> 00:34:00,605
What what Jake saw and what he's talking

969
00:34:00,605 --> 00:34:01,105
about

970
00:34:01,484 --> 00:34:02,545
shows you

971
00:34:03,005 --> 00:34:05,005
where I am at with my own trauma,

972
00:34:05,005 --> 00:34:07,884
my own wounding. Right? So my still in

973
00:34:07,884 --> 00:34:08,385
that,

974
00:34:09,005 --> 00:34:12,569
my goal was still to defend, to save

975
00:34:12,569 --> 00:34:14,409
face, to image manage. So I just I

976
00:34:14,409 --> 00:34:16,889
want everybody and I'm saying this because this

977
00:34:16,889 --> 00:34:18,676
is what recovery is like is Yes, sir.

978
00:34:18,703 --> 00:34:20,170
I'm not gonna sit here and pretend just

979
00:34:20,170 --> 00:34:22,489
because I have all these recovery groups that

980
00:34:22,489 --> 00:34:24,250
that wounded boy of me who got me

981
00:34:24,329 --> 00:34:26,409
that my ass kicked for eighteen years in

982
00:34:26,409 --> 00:34:28,385
this horrible house that I couldn't wait to

983
00:34:28,385 --> 00:34:28,885
leave,

984
00:34:29,824 --> 00:34:31,905
I'm not gonna pretend that just because I've

985
00:34:31,905 --> 00:34:33,505
gone to a bunch of therapy over the

986
00:34:33,505 --> 00:34:35,585
last ten years that I am better. So

987
00:34:35,585 --> 00:34:37,425
I just I just wanted to Yeah. Take

988
00:34:37,425 --> 00:34:39,344
an opportunity to really highlight what Jake did

989
00:34:39,344 --> 00:34:41,390
there. He pointed out to me and this

990
00:34:41,390 --> 00:34:43,390
and this is how recovery works is Jake

991
00:34:43,390 --> 00:34:44,130
showed me,

992
00:34:44,510 --> 00:34:47,010
hey. What you're doing here is the sequencing.

993
00:34:47,070 --> 00:34:48,349
I would have now, Jake, can I give

994
00:34:48,349 --> 00:34:50,210
you feedback? I would have appreciated

995
00:34:50,590 --> 00:34:52,670
you be a little bit harder on me

996
00:34:52,670 --> 00:34:53,730
and teach me

997
00:34:54,444 --> 00:34:57,005
what I did there because I I love

998
00:34:57,005 --> 00:34:58,844
tough love, and I would have loved to

999
00:34:58,844 --> 00:34:59,744
see that,

1000
00:35:00,204 --> 00:35:02,204
I still had this desire to be like,

1001
00:35:02,204 --> 00:35:04,284
see, honey, I'm a good husband. See, I

1002
00:35:04,284 --> 00:35:05,264
told you, like,

1003
00:35:05,565 --> 00:35:06,944
this is a whole big misunderstanding.

1004
00:35:07,324 --> 00:35:08,540
And, but again, it just shows you my

1005
00:35:08,540 --> 00:35:09,585
priorities. It's not really there to recognize that

1006
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:13,719
really there to

1007
00:35:14,019 --> 00:35:14,760
recognize the hurt. It's

1008
00:35:15,219 --> 00:35:16,920
like, hey, see, I didn't mean to hurt

1009
00:35:17,059 --> 00:35:18,519
you and look at what I learned from

1010
00:35:18,820 --> 00:35:21,460
my recovery group and my journaling session. See,

1011
00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:22,900
aren't you proud of me? And again, that

1012
00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:25,059
just shows you where I am at on

1013
00:35:25,059 --> 00:35:27,675
my journey. I'm still so wounded that I

1014
00:35:27,675 --> 00:35:29,695
I want I need to be validated

1015
00:35:30,075 --> 00:35:32,954
for my awareness. Right? But I wanna affirm

1016
00:35:32,954 --> 00:35:35,135
something. I wanna affirm something in you. Okay?

1017
00:35:35,835 --> 00:35:36,974
And it is that

1018
00:35:37,515 --> 00:35:38,494
you immediately

1019
00:35:38,795 --> 00:35:41,515
saw it without me being so direct about

1020
00:35:41,515 --> 00:35:41,880
it.

1021
00:35:42,679 --> 00:35:43,659
If you hadn't,

1022
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,119
I promise you I would have followed up.

1023
00:35:46,119 --> 00:35:48,519
Sure. Sure. But but I would rather you

1024
00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:51,579
see it and you go, oh, yeah. Because

1025
00:35:52,199 --> 00:35:55,019
that is actually gonna be that is capacity

1026
00:35:55,159 --> 00:35:55,659
expansion.

1027
00:35:56,034 --> 00:35:57,954
Mhmm. That is you climbing out of a

1028
00:35:57,954 --> 00:35:58,454
deficit.

1029
00:35:59,155 --> 00:35:59,655
Okay?

1030
00:35:59,954 --> 00:36:02,914
Right? So I'm I'm not doing it for

1031
00:36:02,914 --> 00:36:04,675
you. I mean, I will if I need

1032
00:36:04,675 --> 00:36:06,994
to, but what I'd rather do is I

1033
00:36:06,994 --> 00:36:09,554
do I reach halfway, you reach the other

1034
00:36:09,554 --> 00:36:12,809
half. That is Mhmm. That is the process

1035
00:36:12,809 --> 00:36:15,609
of expanding capacity. Now that's it's a little

1036
00:36:15,609 --> 00:36:17,289
more cognitive because we're doing a replay of

1037
00:36:17,289 --> 00:36:19,769
something that happened. But here's what will probably

1038
00:36:19,769 --> 00:36:22,670
happen, Roland. Next time you're in this situation

1039
00:36:22,730 --> 00:36:24,730
and you find yourself walking into the bedroom

1040
00:36:24,730 --> 00:36:25,630
to say this,

1041
00:36:26,065 --> 00:36:28,144
and you're gonna remember this conversation, you're gonna

1042
00:36:28,144 --> 00:36:29,824
be like, okay. Okay. I'm not gonna do

1043
00:36:29,824 --> 00:36:32,465
anything that sounds defensive. I'm just gonna attend

1044
00:36:32,465 --> 00:36:35,105
to, like, the rupture between us and what

1045
00:36:35,105 --> 00:36:36,784
I missed there. That's all I'm gonna say.

1046
00:36:36,784 --> 00:36:38,545
But there's gonna be this little part of

1047
00:36:38,545 --> 00:36:40,070
you that is, like, screaming

1048
00:36:40,610 --> 00:36:43,510
going, but you gotta explain yourself.

1049
00:36:44,130 --> 00:36:44,630
Okay?

1050
00:36:45,730 --> 00:36:47,110
It is the actual

1051
00:36:47,969 --> 00:36:48,469
experience

1052
00:36:48,930 --> 00:36:52,070
of going in there and not explaining yourself

1053
00:36:52,130 --> 00:36:53,730
even though a part of you is screaming

1054
00:36:53,730 --> 00:36:56,714
to do it. That is the real moment

1055
00:36:56,954 --> 00:36:59,914
That's the work. Of capacity expansion. So true.

1056
00:36:59,914 --> 00:37:02,074
So true. Right? With because without that, I'm

1057
00:37:02,074 --> 00:37:05,454
probably going to lead with my explanation first,

1058
00:37:05,514 --> 00:37:07,569
potentially, for the rest of my marriage. But

1059
00:37:07,569 --> 00:37:10,069
it's that it's that acknowledge it's that acknowledgement

1060
00:37:10,530 --> 00:37:12,849
of that. Now so so on so now

1061
00:37:12,849 --> 00:37:14,929
to enhance my tips to every guy, so

1062
00:37:14,929 --> 00:37:17,170
now maybe on this journal, I'm gonna actually

1063
00:37:17,170 --> 00:37:19,809
modify this. Now maybe on this, like, formula

1064
00:37:19,809 --> 00:37:21,589
prompt that you're using to be introspective,

1065
00:37:22,494 --> 00:37:24,574
what if you get into that template, you

1066
00:37:24,574 --> 00:37:27,135
guys, and you and then you say at

1067
00:37:27,135 --> 00:37:28,514
the end of it, you say,

1068
00:37:31,135 --> 00:37:33,695
what about what did I miss from her

1069
00:37:33,695 --> 00:37:34,195
perspective?

1070
00:37:34,889 --> 00:37:37,529
And then end the journaling session with that,

1071
00:37:37,529 --> 00:37:40,089
and then remind yourself, hey. When I go

1072
00:37:40,089 --> 00:37:42,170
in there, lead with that, and then maybe

1073
00:37:42,170 --> 00:37:44,089
I don't even explain any of this. Because

1074
00:37:44,089 --> 00:37:45,690
here's the thing that Jake brought up, which

1075
00:37:45,690 --> 00:37:47,529
is a good point is, in order for

1076
00:37:47,529 --> 00:37:49,789
you to say that bottom section,

1077
00:37:50,784 --> 00:37:52,465
you have had to do and she's gonna

1078
00:37:52,465 --> 00:37:54,065
know this. She's gonna know this. You've had

1079
00:37:54,065 --> 00:37:56,804
to do the work, the introspective work,

1080
00:37:57,905 --> 00:38:00,224
ahead of time. So that's where to Jake's

1081
00:38:00,224 --> 00:38:03,105
point, do we even need to justify and

1082
00:38:03,105 --> 00:38:05,505
explain? Because I think she'll feel all of

1083
00:38:05,505 --> 00:38:07,739
it in that section of, hey. I totally

1084
00:38:07,739 --> 00:38:09,820
I totally missed this. You know, I was

1085
00:38:09,820 --> 00:38:11,420
in all of my own stuff. Do you

1086
00:38:11,420 --> 00:38:12,619
need to go on and on and on

1087
00:38:12,619 --> 00:38:14,300
and on for fourteen minutes about what your

1088
00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:16,860
own stuff was? Because here's what's funny, Jake,

1089
00:38:16,860 --> 00:38:18,300
and I hate that you're bringing this up

1090
00:38:18,300 --> 00:38:20,539
because I hear, like, I'm all proud of

1091
00:38:20,539 --> 00:38:22,275
myself and she'll be all happy and then

1092
00:38:22,275 --> 00:38:23,414
you know what happens, Jake?

1093
00:38:23,795 --> 00:38:25,315
For the first two minutes, she's like, oh,

1094
00:38:25,315 --> 00:38:26,554
this is so great. And then all of

1095
00:38:26,554 --> 00:38:28,355
a sudden the last, like, eight minutes of

1096
00:38:28,355 --> 00:38:29,494
me explaining myself,

1097
00:38:30,835 --> 00:38:34,195
flat face Right. Like, wow, I'm still hurting

1098
00:38:34,195 --> 00:38:36,034
in here and you just gone on and

1099
00:38:36,034 --> 00:38:37,719
on and on and on about eight minutes

1100
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,640
of your childhood and what you did with

1101
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,400
your recovery group and how proud of yourself

1102
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,700
you are for your introspection,

1103
00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:45,559
and to see her just affect change. So

1104
00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:47,960
what a great, what a great exercise. And

1105
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:49,800
in that moment and so so let's let's

1106
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,559
go there and, you know, like, go back

1107
00:38:51,559 --> 00:38:53,515
to that moment. So you're explaining,

1108
00:38:54,055 --> 00:38:55,815
and you're coming from this place of I

1109
00:38:55,815 --> 00:38:57,114
need her to see

1110
00:38:57,414 --> 00:38:59,255
that I'm trying here. I need her to

1111
00:38:59,255 --> 00:39:00,934
understand how hard I really am working, that

1112
00:39:00,934 --> 00:39:02,855
I'm not failing at this or not. Right?

1113
00:39:02,855 --> 00:39:04,855
And so you you start seeing that on

1114
00:39:04,855 --> 00:39:06,630
her face, what happens inside of you?

1115
00:39:07,109 --> 00:39:09,130
Oh, well, I keep explaining further.

1116
00:39:09,429 --> 00:39:11,690
She must not get she must not get

1117
00:39:11,909 --> 00:39:12,409
it.

1118
00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:15,190
So more words will help. Okay? And it

1119
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:15,690
never

1120
00:39:16,309 --> 00:39:18,309
does. It's like it Well, let me know.

1121
00:39:18,309 --> 00:39:19,509
Did I tell you about this one time

1122
00:39:19,509 --> 00:39:21,565
in middle school where I got maybe she'll

1123
00:39:21,565 --> 00:39:23,965
understand then. Right? Oh, maybe I'll tell you

1124
00:39:23,965 --> 00:39:26,765
know? Yeah. Exactly. When instead when you lead

1125
00:39:26,765 --> 00:39:27,265
with

1126
00:39:28,204 --> 00:39:29,744
tending to the the relationship

1127
00:39:30,525 --> 00:39:31,025
first.

1128
00:39:31,405 --> 00:39:34,125
Right? So before I go to anything that

1129
00:39:34,125 --> 00:39:36,769
even sounds like I'm even if it's not

1130
00:39:36,769 --> 00:39:39,030
defending myself, working on myself,

1131
00:39:39,329 --> 00:39:41,329
the most important thing, if you come with

1132
00:39:41,329 --> 00:39:43,090
the mindset of, I'm putting the relationship first

1133
00:39:43,090 --> 00:39:45,090
here. The most important thing here is there's

1134
00:39:45,090 --> 00:39:47,329
a rupture between us, and until we're okay,

1135
00:39:47,329 --> 00:39:49,875
nothing's okay. Once you do that, she's gonna

1136
00:39:49,875 --> 00:39:51,315
be able to listen to you with a

1137
00:39:51,315 --> 00:39:54,434
whole different ear Mhmm. If you invite her

1138
00:39:54,434 --> 00:39:55,875
to decide if she wants to or not.

1139
00:39:55,875 --> 00:39:57,155
Yeah. I like that. And sometimes she will

1140
00:39:57,155 --> 00:39:58,355
and sometimes she won't. I like it. And

1141
00:39:58,355 --> 00:40:01,074
that's why this is another really critical piece

1142
00:40:01,074 --> 00:40:03,474
of this for guys to understand. Because listen,

1143
00:40:03,474 --> 00:40:05,549
your wife is hurt, she's traumatized,

1144
00:40:05,849 --> 00:40:06,349
whatever.

1145
00:40:06,730 --> 00:40:08,289
And maybe she's doing her work around it,

1146
00:40:08,289 --> 00:40:09,769
and maybe she's not, and she's gonna have

1147
00:40:09,769 --> 00:40:11,369
good days and bad days just like the

1148
00:40:11,369 --> 00:40:12,190
rest of us.

1149
00:40:12,730 --> 00:40:15,609
You cannot define your success or failure in

1150
00:40:15,609 --> 00:40:17,690
that moment based on whether she receives what

1151
00:40:17,690 --> 00:40:19,934
you're doing. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. You.

1152
00:40:20,335 --> 00:40:21,074
This is

1153
00:40:21,454 --> 00:40:22,195
about I

1154
00:40:22,574 --> 00:40:25,055
what kind of partner do I want to

1155
00:40:25,055 --> 00:40:27,135
be to her? What kind of man do

1156
00:40:27,135 --> 00:40:28,735
I wanna be? Do I wanna be the

1157
00:40:28,735 --> 00:40:31,215
kind of man that can leave my own

1158
00:40:31,215 --> 00:40:33,135
issues behind that doesn't feel like I have

1159
00:40:33,135 --> 00:40:35,949
to defend myself and explain myself and can

1160
00:40:35,949 --> 00:40:37,230
just attend to the hurt in front of

1161
00:40:37,230 --> 00:40:38,670
me? Or do I wanna be the man

1162
00:40:38,670 --> 00:40:40,750
that always leads with talking about himself and

1163
00:40:40,750 --> 00:40:43,150
defending himself? Yeah. And so when I walk

1164
00:40:43,150 --> 00:40:45,010
in there and I say

1165
00:40:45,469 --> 00:40:47,550
to myself, I know the kind of partner

1166
00:40:47,550 --> 00:40:48,750
I wanna be here and I wanna be

1167
00:40:48,750 --> 00:40:51,394
someone who is putting this relationship first and

1168
00:40:51,394 --> 00:40:53,155
not making it about me. And then I

1169
00:40:53,155 --> 00:40:53,894
do that

1170
00:40:54,195 --> 00:40:56,594
regardless of how she receives it, I can

1171
00:40:56,594 --> 00:40:58,914
feel good about showing up the way I

1172
00:40:58,914 --> 00:41:00,514
wanted to. Oh, and, Jake, I I so

1173
00:41:00,514 --> 00:41:02,514
appreciate you because I can't tell you many

1174
00:41:02,514 --> 00:41:04,710
times I've heard a guy bring this up

1175
00:41:04,710 --> 00:41:06,070
to the group, right? Then he goes and

1176
00:41:06,070 --> 00:41:07,670
does the apology and then he comes back

1177
00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:09,989
and is like, well, that backfired. She's such

1178
00:41:09,989 --> 00:41:12,150
a bitch. You know? Yeah. Yeah. But to

1179
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:13,130
your point, Jake,

1180
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:15,269
let's really think of what you're walking into.

1181
00:41:15,269 --> 00:41:17,269
We're walking into a room where she is

1182
00:41:17,269 --> 00:41:18,795
incredibly hurt by you.

1183
00:41:19,594 --> 00:41:20,714
You don't know what she's been doing in

1184
00:41:20,714 --> 00:41:22,414
there. She could be stewing, ruminating,

1185
00:41:23,355 --> 00:41:25,114
complaining to her. And so now you walk

1186
00:41:25,114 --> 00:41:26,094
in with expectations

1187
00:41:26,714 --> 00:41:29,034
That's right. That she validates how good you

1188
00:41:29,034 --> 00:41:31,514
feel from your introspective exercise and everything you

1189
00:41:31,514 --> 00:41:33,194
did with your with your group and your

1190
00:41:33,194 --> 00:41:34,940
recovery your recovery tribe.

1191
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,079
I I think Jake brought up a really

1192
00:41:37,079 --> 00:41:39,320
good point there was, how unfair is that

1193
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,699
to walk in with expectations that she honors

1194
00:41:43,079 --> 00:41:43,579
your,

1195
00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:44,539
your

1196
00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:46,880
your your recovery exercise

1197
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:48,585
To to both of you. How much she's

1198
00:41:48,664 --> 00:41:50,505
upset. Right? I love that. It's unfair to

1199
00:41:50,505 --> 00:41:52,585
both of you. It's unfair to her, but

1200
00:41:52,585 --> 00:41:55,625
it's also unfair to yourself. Correct. Correct. People

1201
00:41:55,625 --> 00:41:56,684
have bad days.

1202
00:41:57,464 --> 00:41:59,724
Okay? Like, we all do.

1203
00:42:00,664 --> 00:42:02,609
You know, if my wife I love my

1204
00:42:02,609 --> 00:42:04,949
wife. You met my wife. My wife's awesome.

1205
00:42:05,170 --> 00:42:07,009
But let me tell you something. If it's

1206
00:42:07,009 --> 00:42:08,529
been a long day, if she got up

1207
00:42:08,529 --> 00:42:10,929
and had a training session at 6AM and

1208
00:42:10,929 --> 00:42:13,349
she worked all day and it's 9PM,

1209
00:42:14,304 --> 00:42:16,385
I'm not you know, that she's not gonna

1210
00:42:16,385 --> 00:42:18,625
shine in that moment. She knows it. So

1211
00:42:18,625 --> 00:42:20,545
that she's okay with me saying this right

1212
00:42:20,545 --> 00:42:21,045
now.

1213
00:42:21,505 --> 00:42:23,265
Why should I expect that of her? You

1214
00:42:23,265 --> 00:42:23,925
know? And

1215
00:42:24,945 --> 00:42:26,005
I want it.

1216
00:42:26,519 --> 00:42:28,599
Of course, we want to be well received

1217
00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:31,079
by our partners. We want them to affirm

1218
00:42:31,079 --> 00:42:33,159
the work we're doing, and sometimes we'll get

1219
00:42:33,159 --> 00:42:35,159
it. And there's even you know, there's stats

1220
00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:36,440
out there from the from the realm of

1221
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,679
performance psychology that we do need a win

1222
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:40,199
in there every once in a while to

1223
00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:42,664
keep going when we're receiving the correction and

1224
00:42:42,664 --> 00:42:43,204
the coaching.

1225
00:42:43,585 --> 00:42:44,085
But

1226
00:42:45,585 --> 00:42:47,204
but, gosh, you know what?

1227
00:42:48,305 --> 00:42:50,405
I can all it is always

1228
00:42:51,585 --> 00:42:52,724
within my

1229
00:42:53,744 --> 00:42:54,805
realm of possibility

1230
00:42:55,630 --> 00:42:58,289
to choose an alignment with my values. Mhmm.

1231
00:42:59,469 --> 00:43:01,949
That is a win that is a 100%

1232
00:43:01,949 --> 00:43:02,609
on me.

1233
00:43:04,269 --> 00:43:06,269
And so if I can define success or

1234
00:43:06,269 --> 00:43:09,550
failure based on that Mhmm. Not something internal

1235
00:43:09,550 --> 00:43:10,210
to me,

1236
00:43:11,065 --> 00:43:13,005
that's gold. That's for everybody.

1237
00:43:13,385 --> 00:43:15,304
It's a it's a all I'm hearing with

1238
00:43:15,304 --> 00:43:16,905
this is and, again, I'm not just beating

1239
00:43:16,905 --> 00:43:18,265
up on the guys. You know, the ladies

1240
00:43:18,265 --> 00:43:19,005
have their,

1241
00:43:19,465 --> 00:43:21,465
trauma too. But what I'm hearing with this

1242
00:43:21,465 --> 00:43:23,885
is, you know, so much of our conversations

1243
00:43:24,184 --> 00:43:25,485
have to do with unresolved

1244
00:43:25,820 --> 00:43:27,199
nonsense for you, expectations

1245
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:28,800
that we both have,

1246
00:43:29,340 --> 00:43:31,260
a trade partner and addict. Right? So we're

1247
00:43:31,260 --> 00:43:32,400
entering these conversations

1248
00:43:32,860 --> 00:43:33,360
with,

1249
00:43:33,980 --> 00:43:36,500
I you you better understand me. You better,

1250
00:43:36,940 --> 00:43:39,114
appreciate the work they did. I listened to

1251
00:43:39,114 --> 00:43:40,875
this podcast. You know, it's it's so much

1252
00:43:40,875 --> 00:43:43,114
about me, me, me, me, me when the

1253
00:43:43,275 --> 00:43:45,195
and and we're just totally missing it. It's

1254
00:43:45,195 --> 00:43:45,855
like, honey,

1255
00:43:46,235 --> 00:43:47,595
we both love each other. What the heck

1256
00:43:47,595 --> 00:43:49,035
what the heck's going on? And I just

1257
00:43:49,035 --> 00:43:50,795
don't, you know, I don't you know, I

1258
00:43:50,795 --> 00:43:52,575
think, Jake, you know, one thing that's really,

1259
00:43:52,860 --> 00:43:54,300
you know, come so,

1260
00:43:54,619 --> 00:43:56,220
obvious to me, and I know this about

1261
00:43:56,220 --> 00:43:57,119
myself is,

1262
00:43:57,980 --> 00:43:59,740
you know, this house just so much is

1263
00:43:59,740 --> 00:44:01,980
still so unresolved. Right? I go into those

1264
00:44:01,980 --> 00:44:03,119
conversations, Jake,

1265
00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:04,000
with,

1266
00:44:05,019 --> 00:44:07,985
The Rolling Show to to like, it's it's

1267
00:44:07,985 --> 00:44:10,224
like eighty twenty. It's like 80%. Let me

1268
00:44:10,224 --> 00:44:11,525
explain to you why,

1269
00:44:11,905 --> 00:44:12,405
why

1270
00:44:13,265 --> 00:44:15,425
how I figure this out. And then 20%

1271
00:44:15,425 --> 00:44:17,744
is like, oh, and they're there. I'm sorry.

1272
00:44:17,744 --> 00:44:19,265
Right? And it's it's you know, I think

1273
00:44:19,265 --> 00:44:20,385
I think that was this is such a

1274
00:44:20,385 --> 00:44:23,250
perspective conversation. So we didn't talk about and

1275
00:44:23,250 --> 00:44:24,949
I want I wanna talk about is,

1276
00:44:25,489 --> 00:44:26,710
for, partners.

1277
00:44:27,010 --> 00:44:29,730
So Yeah. Defense deficit, give us can you

1278
00:44:29,730 --> 00:44:31,730
do a similar hopefully, it doesn't take as

1279
00:44:31,730 --> 00:44:33,349
long to do as that last example.

1280
00:44:33,730 --> 00:44:35,110
Can you talk to us about

1281
00:44:35,635 --> 00:44:38,434
what strategies can a partner use to make

1282
00:44:38,434 --> 00:44:41,655
sure that they're being as sensitive as possible

1283
00:44:41,795 --> 00:44:44,835
to this whole defense deficit thing? Is there

1284
00:44:44,835 --> 00:44:46,275
a way to how can they do this

1285
00:44:46,275 --> 00:44:48,355
productively so that we can get to some

1286
00:44:48,355 --> 00:44:50,434
sort of resolve rather than going into an

1287
00:44:50,434 --> 00:44:51,839
argument? Yeah. So

1288
00:44:52,859 --> 00:44:53,760
I first wanna

1289
00:44:54,780 --> 00:44:57,500
warn against a way of trying to discern

1290
00:44:57,500 --> 00:44:59,039
between the two that's inaccurate.

1291
00:44:59,819 --> 00:45:01,659
Because I hear this a lot where a

1292
00:45:01,659 --> 00:45:02,800
partner will say,

1293
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:05,920
he has empathy with all these other people,

1294
00:45:06,344 --> 00:45:08,905
but not with me. Mhmm. Mhmm. Therefore, I

1295
00:45:08,905 --> 00:45:10,284
know he has the capacity.

1296
00:45:10,744 --> 00:45:13,304
Here's the problem with that. Here's why that's

1297
00:45:13,304 --> 00:45:13,804
not

1298
00:45:14,264 --> 00:45:15,484
necessarily true.

1299
00:45:16,425 --> 00:45:18,844
If you matter most to him,

1300
00:45:19,839 --> 00:45:21,059
then your presence

1301
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,239
is more likely to put him in a

1302
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:25,219
state of threat

1303
00:45:25,839 --> 00:45:27,859
than the presence of his coworkers,

1304
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,375
the neighbor across the street, whoever else you've

1305
00:45:31,375 --> 00:45:33,575
seen The other women in your betrayal

1306
00:45:34,015 --> 00:45:36,094
Yeah. Couple group. Right? That was my wife

1307
00:45:36,094 --> 00:45:38,335
always did that. I'm over there crying my

1308
00:45:38,335 --> 00:45:40,735
eyes out on Zoom for this poor betrayed

1309
00:45:40,735 --> 00:45:42,655
partner, and my wife's looking at me like,

1310
00:45:42,655 --> 00:45:44,575
this freaking homie right here, when was the

1311
00:45:44,575 --> 00:45:46,594
last time you cried about me? Right?

1312
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,019
Right. Exactly. But here's the thing.

1313
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,260
Those other people

1314
00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:54,219
aren't your primary attachment.

1315
00:45:54,599 --> 00:45:55,099
Mhmm.

1316
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,300
And with the with your primary attachment,

1317
00:45:59,085 --> 00:46:01,744
you are more sensitive to threat responses.

1318
00:46:02,125 --> 00:46:04,224
It's a weird thing, but it's just real.

1319
00:46:04,364 --> 00:46:05,184
And so

1320
00:46:06,284 --> 00:46:08,605
if if he's already kind of in a

1321
00:46:08,605 --> 00:46:11,324
limbic state, already kinda getting to the edge

1322
00:46:11,324 --> 00:46:13,664
of his window of tolerance with you ladies,

1323
00:46:14,219 --> 00:46:14,719
then

1324
00:46:15,820 --> 00:46:18,539
the pressure of that moment because it's with

1325
00:46:18,539 --> 00:46:19,039
you,

1326
00:46:19,340 --> 00:46:22,059
it's it's not then that the capacity is

1327
00:46:22,059 --> 00:46:24,000
around he doesn't have empathy skills.

1328
00:46:24,300 --> 00:46:25,440
It's an affect

1329
00:46:25,820 --> 00:46:28,159
tolerance Mhmm. Capacity issue

1330
00:46:28,574 --> 00:46:31,214
that he can't stay present in that moment

1331
00:46:31,214 --> 00:46:34,335
of threat to get access to those empathy

1332
00:46:34,335 --> 00:46:36,734
skills. So that's one thing I like to

1333
00:46:36,734 --> 00:46:38,655
put out there that that that doesn't work

1334
00:46:38,655 --> 00:46:39,474
is comparing

1335
00:46:39,855 --> 00:46:41,554
how he treats you to other people.

1336
00:46:42,250 --> 00:46:44,570
I'm and I'm not making excuses for it.

1337
00:46:44,570 --> 00:46:45,230
I'm just

1338
00:46:45,610 --> 00:46:47,450
saying that could be happening, and now there's

1339
00:46:47,450 --> 00:46:49,690
work to be done around that. Okay. So

1340
00:46:49,690 --> 00:46:51,289
how do you tell sense this Yeah. The

1341
00:46:51,289 --> 00:46:52,110
stakes are

1342
00:46:52,410 --> 00:46:54,650
are high. I mean, my my wife's my

1343
00:46:54,650 --> 00:46:56,170
everything. I mean, if I lose her, I

1344
00:46:56,890 --> 00:46:58,625
oh my gosh. I mean, I I I

1345
00:46:59,644 --> 00:47:01,565
I I don't want that. Right? So so,

1346
00:47:01,565 --> 00:47:03,184
you know, the stakes are insanely

1347
00:47:03,485 --> 00:47:05,085
high. So you're gonna you're gonna probably see

1348
00:47:05,085 --> 00:47:06,445
a different side of me that you don't

1349
00:47:06,445 --> 00:47:09,025
normally that you don't normally see. Absolutely.

1350
00:47:09,485 --> 00:47:11,425
So so how do you tell? Well,

1351
00:47:12,099 --> 00:47:13,539
and this is gonna be really unfair, the

1352
00:47:13,539 --> 00:47:14,900
first thing I wanna say. I'm just gonna

1353
00:47:14,900 --> 00:47:17,619
say, like, I spent thousands of dollars, and

1354
00:47:17,619 --> 00:47:20,179
I've spent hundreds of hours learning to tell

1355
00:47:20,179 --> 00:47:20,760
the difference.

1356
00:47:21,460 --> 00:47:21,960
So

1357
00:47:22,339 --> 00:47:23,800
the some sometimes

1358
00:47:24,179 --> 00:47:25,639
having a trained professional

1359
00:47:26,364 --> 00:47:28,605
to give you some insight in this could

1360
00:47:28,605 --> 00:47:31,485
go a long way. But here here's here's

1361
00:47:31,485 --> 00:47:32,625
what I would offer

1362
00:47:33,164 --> 00:47:34,224
besides that,

1363
00:47:35,244 --> 00:47:35,744
is

1364
00:47:36,605 --> 00:47:37,425
pay attention

1365
00:47:38,525 --> 00:47:39,825
to his body.

1366
00:47:41,690 --> 00:47:44,730
Is is he getting all worked up? Right?

1367
00:47:44,730 --> 00:47:45,949
Mhmm. So in

1368
00:47:46,329 --> 00:47:46,829
the

1369
00:47:47,369 --> 00:47:47,869
defensive

1370
00:47:48,170 --> 00:47:48,670
words,

1371
00:47:49,529 --> 00:47:50,670
is his body

1372
00:47:51,049 --> 00:47:52,190
moving toward dysregulation?

1373
00:47:53,114 --> 00:47:55,295
If so, yeah, there may be a defense

1374
00:47:55,355 --> 00:47:57,034
mechanism at play, but it might be that

1375
00:47:57,034 --> 00:47:58,094
there's a deficit

1376
00:47:58,715 --> 00:48:01,675
underneath it that he's trying to, like, stay

1377
00:48:01,675 --> 00:48:03,835
out of. Mhmm. Does that make sense? Mhmm.

1378
00:48:03,835 --> 00:48:06,315
So pay attention to the body. That's that's

1379
00:48:06,315 --> 00:48:08,335
one thing. The other thing to do

1380
00:48:08,889 --> 00:48:10,030
is go on Google.

1381
00:48:11,289 --> 00:48:13,869
Google list of defense mechanisms.

1382
00:48:14,650 --> 00:48:15,150
Alright?

1383
00:48:16,090 --> 00:48:16,590
And,

1384
00:48:17,050 --> 00:48:19,389
like, kinda read up on them because

1385
00:48:19,849 --> 00:48:22,349
there's a set of, you know, somewhere between,

1386
00:48:22,489 --> 00:48:23,150
you know,

1387
00:48:23,594 --> 00:48:25,054
twelve and twenty

1388
00:48:25,355 --> 00:48:28,094
ish that are really common, and you can

1389
00:48:28,234 --> 00:48:30,574
be like, that sounds like rationalization.

1390
00:48:30,954 --> 00:48:32,335
Okay. Well, if it's rationalization,

1391
00:48:33,034 --> 00:48:35,034
that's a defense. But here's the here's what

1392
00:48:35,034 --> 00:48:35,855
I would say.

1393
00:48:37,940 --> 00:48:39,699
You don't have to do this, ladies. I'm

1394
00:48:39,699 --> 00:48:41,859
just telling you, you're probably more likely to

1395
00:48:41,859 --> 00:48:44,199
get what you want if you do. Alright?

1396
00:48:46,019 --> 00:48:47,719
You can confront the defense.

1397
00:48:48,339 --> 00:48:49,799
That sounds like you're rationalizing,

1398
00:48:50,179 --> 00:48:52,199
or that sounds like you're

1399
00:48:53,025 --> 00:48:54,324
in denial about

1400
00:48:54,784 --> 00:48:56,545
what you actually did there. Took me about

1401
00:48:56,545 --> 00:48:58,545
two years to be able to handle comments

1402
00:48:58,545 --> 00:49:00,224
like that. So Yeah. It takes a long

1403
00:49:00,224 --> 00:49:00,724
time.

1404
00:49:01,505 --> 00:49:03,204
Now how you say it matters,

1405
00:49:03,905 --> 00:49:06,324
tone, posture, faith, it all matters.

1406
00:49:06,969 --> 00:49:08,890
You and and I'm just saying, you can

1407
00:49:08,890 --> 00:49:10,510
say that and then follow it with,

1408
00:49:10,890 --> 00:49:13,309
I don't know what's underneath that. Mhmm.

1409
00:49:13,930 --> 00:49:16,510
Mhmm. I don't know what's underneath that,

1410
00:49:18,010 --> 00:49:20,385
but my hope is that we can figure

1411
00:49:20,385 --> 00:49:21,765
it out, you can figure it

1412
00:49:22,144 --> 00:49:23,905
out because I do want this relationship with

1413
00:49:23,905 --> 00:49:25,285
you, and that's not helping.

1414
00:49:25,905 --> 00:49:26,724
Oh. It's clear.

1415
00:49:27,105 --> 00:49:28,005
Freaking Jake,

1416
00:49:28,385 --> 00:49:30,065
you and your 10 out of 10 empathy

1417
00:49:30,065 --> 00:49:32,224
nonsense. You're making us all feel bad about

1418
00:49:32,224 --> 00:49:33,869
ourselves there. But, no, that that is that

1419
00:49:33,869 --> 00:49:35,469
is so true because I think if that

1420
00:49:35,469 --> 00:49:36,609
was said to me,

1421
00:49:37,069 --> 00:49:38,829
maybe it wouldn't have taken me two years.

1422
00:49:38,829 --> 00:49:41,010
I think I could have probably heard that

1423
00:49:41,150 --> 00:49:43,069
said to me in those first six months.

1424
00:49:43,069 --> 00:49:44,429
I think I could Yeah. If I were

1425
00:49:44,429 --> 00:49:46,034
to because I wanna I I wanna I

1426
00:49:46,034 --> 00:49:47,795
wanna kinda underline something. I wanna go back

1427
00:49:47,795 --> 00:49:49,655
to your example. You walk into the bedroom

1428
00:49:49,795 --> 00:49:51,315
to to Lauren, you know, to your wife.

1429
00:49:51,315 --> 00:49:51,815
Okay?

1430
00:49:54,514 --> 00:49:57,494
Like, you leading with all the explanation,

1431
00:49:57,795 --> 00:49:59,960
all the self, you know, this and this

1432
00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:01,239
and this, and I was here right, and

1433
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:02,440
this is what I heard and this came

1434
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,440
up for me. That doesn't make you a

1435
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,079
bad person. Mhmm. That doesn't make that alone

1436
00:50:07,079 --> 00:50:08,380
doesn't make you a narcissist.

1437
00:50:08,839 --> 00:50:09,579
That doesn't

1438
00:50:10,679 --> 00:50:11,260
I mean,

1439
00:50:11,815 --> 00:50:14,135
it could. I'm not saying there aren't people

1440
00:50:14,135 --> 00:50:15,894
who are I'm not saying it, but that

1441
00:50:15,894 --> 00:50:17,275
alone doesn't do it.

1442
00:50:17,894 --> 00:50:18,394
Underneath

1443
00:50:18,695 --> 00:50:19,675
all of that

1444
00:50:20,215 --> 00:50:21,355
is a wounded

1445
00:50:21,815 --> 00:50:23,655
child. Mhmm. You know? And you were talking

1446
00:50:23,655 --> 00:50:26,155
about that. It's that early trauma work. Right?

1447
00:50:26,454 --> 00:50:27,275
And so,

1448
00:50:28,210 --> 00:50:29,910
you know, as a professional,

1449
00:50:30,450 --> 00:50:31,910
that's what I wanna remember

1450
00:50:32,610 --> 00:50:36,550
is that if someone is engaging defense mechanisms,

1451
00:50:36,690 --> 00:50:38,769
it's not because they're a monster

1452
00:50:39,250 --> 00:50:39,750
Mhmm.

1453
00:50:40,690 --> 00:50:41,190
Necessarily.

1454
00:50:41,650 --> 00:50:43,304
Monsters do exist. But

1455
00:50:44,344 --> 00:50:46,525
But but the vast majority of the time,

1456
00:50:47,625 --> 00:50:49,644
this is someone who's hurt

1457
00:50:50,344 --> 00:50:52,444
and who doesn't have the know how. Mhmm.

1458
00:50:52,664 --> 00:50:53,565
And and

1459
00:50:54,425 --> 00:50:56,425
and I think it's important to state this

1460
00:50:56,425 --> 00:50:58,125
in the conversation because I

1461
00:50:58,440 --> 00:50:59,420
I I it would

1462
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:01,639
I would really kick myself if we ended

1463
00:51:01,639 --> 00:51:03,159
the conversation. I look back and and I

1464
00:51:03,159 --> 00:51:04,219
didn't bring this up.

1465
00:51:04,519 --> 00:51:06,859
I think in terms of deficits,

1466
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,480
one of the most common deficits, and this

1467
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:12,859
is this is a

1468
00:51:13,445 --> 00:51:15,704
broad reaching deficit as well,

1469
00:51:16,565 --> 00:51:18,965
is what I would call having a one

1470
00:51:18,965 --> 00:51:19,945
person psychology

1471
00:51:20,324 --> 00:51:22,025
instead of a two person psychology.

1472
00:51:24,405 --> 00:51:26,025
A two person psychology

1473
00:51:27,590 --> 00:51:28,329
is where

1474
00:51:28,630 --> 00:51:29,849
my orientation

1475
00:51:30,309 --> 00:51:32,869
I have I've pair bonded with you. We

1476
00:51:32,869 --> 00:51:35,829
are each other's person now. You know? It

1477
00:51:35,829 --> 00:51:37,670
doesn't have to be a formal marriage or

1478
00:51:37,670 --> 00:51:39,510
what it is like, but you're my primary

1479
00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:41,974
attachment. You're my person. And in

1480
00:51:42,675 --> 00:51:43,255
our culture,

1481
00:51:43,715 --> 00:51:44,215
okay,

1482
00:51:44,595 --> 00:51:46,994
the typical development is that when I pair

1483
00:51:46,994 --> 00:51:47,894
off with you,

1484
00:51:48,355 --> 00:51:50,434
I enter into what's called a two person

1485
00:51:50,434 --> 00:51:52,295
psychology. Mhmm. Which means

1486
00:51:52,595 --> 00:51:54,855
that my default setting is

1487
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:57,590
I'm part of this diet. Of course, I'm

1488
00:51:57,590 --> 00:51:58,090
dyad.

1489
00:51:58,469 --> 00:52:00,469
A two part one two person system. Not

1490
00:52:00,469 --> 00:52:03,289
two one person systems. One two person system.

1491
00:52:03,430 --> 00:52:04,869
Of course, I'm not gonna do something that

1492
00:52:04,869 --> 00:52:07,369
hurts my marriage. And this and betrayed partners,

1493
00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:08,489
they're like,

1494
00:52:08,974 --> 00:52:10,414
how could you do that? I would never

1495
00:52:10,414 --> 00:52:11,855
do that. And you know what? They wouldn't

1496
00:52:11,855 --> 00:52:13,315
because in their development,

1497
00:52:13,695 --> 00:52:15,775
they made that transition from one person to

1498
00:52:15,775 --> 00:52:16,835
two person psychology.

1499
00:52:17,375 --> 00:52:19,135
And and the thought that they would do

1500
00:52:19,135 --> 00:52:21,215
this thing that would they know would hurt

1501
00:52:21,215 --> 00:52:21,954
their relationship,

1502
00:52:22,574 --> 00:52:24,114
they'd never do that. Mhmm.

1503
00:52:25,150 --> 00:52:27,309
You take someone who has a lot of

1504
00:52:27,309 --> 00:52:30,829
early relational trauma, developmental trauma, who maybe who

1505
00:52:30,829 --> 00:52:32,849
maybe has some addiction on board,

1506
00:52:33,389 --> 00:52:35,789
that could also be a contributor in stunting

1507
00:52:35,789 --> 00:52:38,030
the growth even though that addiction piece isn't

1508
00:52:38,030 --> 00:52:38,530
necessarily

1509
00:52:39,724 --> 00:52:41,505
necessary for what I'm about to say.

1510
00:52:41,805 --> 00:52:42,305
But

1511
00:52:42,844 --> 00:52:44,545
they don't automatically

1512
00:52:45,565 --> 00:52:46,065
develop

1513
00:52:46,765 --> 00:52:49,184
that transition from one to two person psychology.

1514
00:52:49,244 --> 00:52:51,244
I I I I promise you I did

1515
00:52:51,244 --> 00:52:53,585
not. I I don't trust anyone.

1516
00:52:54,279 --> 00:52:56,199
I get my needs met on my own.

1517
00:52:56,199 --> 00:52:57,799
I am the only one I trust to

1518
00:52:57,799 --> 00:52:59,480
do that. So, yeah, why when I got

1519
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:01,000
with Lauren, it was like, hey, you can

1520
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:02,619
tag along on my journey.

1521
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,920
And, and she'll tell you straight up that

1522
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,775
was the vibe from day one was, hey,

1523
00:53:07,775 --> 00:53:08,755
I'm doing me.

1524
00:53:09,054 --> 00:53:11,214
We can be married, but, just so you

1525
00:53:11,214 --> 00:53:14,255
know, here's here's what's gonna happen on my

1526
00:53:14,255 --> 00:53:15,635
side of things. And,

1527
00:53:16,574 --> 00:53:18,734
and she kicks herself quite a bit for

1528
00:53:18,734 --> 00:53:19,234
not

1529
00:53:19,599 --> 00:53:21,119
kind of addressing a little bit more of

1530
00:53:21,119 --> 00:53:23,760
that because I I believe we are where

1531
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:24,739
we are because

1532
00:53:25,599 --> 00:53:27,920
six months into the relationship, you know, once

1533
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:29,460
the infatuation kind of were,

1534
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,599
now it's back to the Rolling Show. I

1535
00:53:31,599 --> 00:53:33,199
do need and again, I didn't mean to

1536
00:53:33,199 --> 00:53:34,804
you, Jake. I don't wanna do any of

1537
00:53:34,804 --> 00:53:37,525
that. It's it's just how I lived my

1538
00:53:37,525 --> 00:53:40,085
life for those first twenty five years. I

1539
00:53:40,085 --> 00:53:41,464
I trusted no one,

1540
00:53:42,244 --> 00:53:45,525
and only did me and was very yeah.

1541
00:53:45,525 --> 00:53:46,920
Yeah. Just kind of, even though I was

1542
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:48,519
at parties and it looked like I had

1543
00:53:48,519 --> 00:53:50,839
friends in my head, it's the Rolling Show,

1544
00:53:50,839 --> 00:53:52,440
baby. It's the Rolling Show. Me, myself, and

1545
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,139
I riding solo till I die.

1546
00:53:54,519 --> 00:53:56,219
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

1547
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,594
And and so there's this there's this

1548
00:54:00,074 --> 00:54:02,715
fundamental paradigm shift that I try to help

1549
00:54:02,715 --> 00:54:04,234
guys have if they want to have it.

1550
00:54:04,234 --> 00:54:05,534
Here's the thing. You can

1551
00:54:05,914 --> 00:54:07,514
look. If you wanna stay in a one

1552
00:54:07,514 --> 00:54:09,994
person psychology, you can. That is your choice.

1553
00:54:09,994 --> 00:54:11,534
And I would even say this.

1554
00:54:12,074 --> 00:54:13,534
If you've got two people

1555
00:54:14,650 --> 00:54:16,890
in a relationship and they're like, hey. We

1556
00:54:16,890 --> 00:54:18,510
don't wanna do the dyad thing.

1557
00:54:18,969 --> 00:54:21,210
We we each have a one person psychology

1558
00:54:21,210 --> 00:54:23,449
and it's working for us. Hey. Go be

1559
00:54:23,449 --> 00:54:25,289
blessed. Yeah. I've seen that. Go for it.

1560
00:54:25,289 --> 00:54:27,150
Yeah. I have two. I have two.

1561
00:54:27,545 --> 00:54:29,945
But what's not gonna work is if you've

1562
00:54:29,945 --> 00:54:31,005
got one person

1563
00:54:31,385 --> 00:54:33,864
operating in a two person psychology and another

1564
00:54:33,864 --> 00:54:36,664
person operating in one person psychology. Mhmm. That

1565
00:54:36,664 --> 00:54:38,425
ain't gonna work. You're welcome to my marriage.

1566
00:54:38,425 --> 00:54:40,664
Yeah. Exactly. You know? That's not gonna work.

1567
00:54:40,664 --> 00:54:41,885
Yep. And and

1568
00:54:42,184 --> 00:54:44,670
it's probably not gonna happen that the two

1569
00:54:44,670 --> 00:54:45,489
person psychology

1570
00:54:46,030 --> 00:54:48,190
person's gonna step back into a one person

1571
00:54:48,190 --> 00:54:50,530
psychology. And, Jake, I think why you hear

1572
00:54:51,389 --> 00:54:54,590
couples come out of this stronger than before

1573
00:54:54,590 --> 00:54:56,815
is what Jake just said. What my life

1574
00:54:56,815 --> 00:54:58,594
and I are now forming

1575
00:54:59,055 --> 00:55:00,275
for the first time,

1576
00:55:00,894 --> 00:55:04,015
I'm getting on board with a with a

1577
00:55:04,015 --> 00:55:06,094
dyad, and and I want and I want

1578
00:55:06,094 --> 00:55:07,535
the dyad. And you know what's funny? I

1579
00:55:07,535 --> 00:55:08,735
believe, and I don't know if this is

1580
00:55:08,735 --> 00:55:10,889
the case for all guys, it's my desire

1581
00:55:10,949 --> 00:55:12,949
for the dyad that keeps me sober and

1582
00:55:12,949 --> 00:55:13,449
recovered.

1583
00:55:13,829 --> 00:55:17,130
I can't have I can't have both. And

1584
00:55:17,190 --> 00:55:20,090
now that I have experienced enough, and tasted

1585
00:55:20,150 --> 00:55:21,369
enough of a dyad

1586
00:55:21,750 --> 00:55:23,670
and seen enough of a dyad, it's all

1587
00:55:23,670 --> 00:55:25,190
I want. And and it makes it quite

1588
00:55:25,190 --> 00:55:27,325
easy. It makes it quite easy because I

1589
00:55:27,325 --> 00:55:29,325
can't have both, and what I get in

1590
00:55:29,325 --> 00:55:31,405
the dyad is is is is everything I've

1591
00:55:31,405 --> 00:55:33,565
ever wanted. It's it's it's why I did

1592
00:55:33,565 --> 00:55:35,724
everything I did was I was trying to

1593
00:55:35,724 --> 00:55:37,885
get those feelings, and I was never gonna

1594
00:55:37,885 --> 00:55:39,905
get them in my kind of lone wolfness

1595
00:55:40,204 --> 00:55:40,785
to such.

1596
00:55:41,199 --> 00:55:42,960
So let me let me let me say

1597
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,199
what you just said the way I usually

1598
00:55:45,199 --> 00:55:46,099
say it to clients.

1599
00:55:46,559 --> 00:55:47,619
What you are realizing

1600
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:50,800
is that you never have to choose between

1601
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:52,559
what's best for your marriage and what's best

1602
00:55:52,559 --> 00:55:54,094
for you. Yeah. I like that. Because what's

1603
00:55:54,094 --> 00:55:55,454
best for your marriage is what's best for

1604
00:55:55,454 --> 00:55:58,494
you. Yeah. If you know that your best

1605
00:55:58,494 --> 00:56:00,574
shot in life is with that woman that

1606
00:56:00,574 --> 00:56:02,655
you love, if you know that, like, your

1607
00:56:02,655 --> 00:56:03,554
best life

1608
00:56:03,934 --> 00:56:04,914
is with her,

1609
00:56:06,650 --> 00:56:08,349
those will never be competing

1610
00:56:09,050 --> 00:56:09,550
interest.

1611
00:56:09,930 --> 00:56:12,110
Your interest and the interest of that relationship.

1612
00:56:12,570 --> 00:56:15,130
So everybody listen to this. You want I

1613
00:56:15,130 --> 00:56:17,130
know you're already listening like, dude, how do

1614
00:56:17,130 --> 00:56:19,275
my wife and I hang out with, Jake?

1615
00:56:19,434 --> 00:56:21,994
He has a way to do this. Jake,

1616
00:56:21,994 --> 00:56:24,394
how do they apply for the whole screening

1617
00:56:24,394 --> 00:56:26,174
process? What's the what's the title

1618
00:56:26,474 --> 00:56:28,315
of the program? Where do they go? Sure.

1619
00:56:28,315 --> 00:56:29,674
So there there's a couple of ways to

1620
00:56:29,674 --> 00:56:31,775
work with me. I do customized

1621
00:56:32,154 --> 00:56:34,650
intensives for couples where we do a whole

1622
00:56:34,650 --> 00:56:37,130
bunch of assessments. It's annoying how many assessments

1623
00:56:37,130 --> 00:56:37,949
we do upfront,

1624
00:56:38,250 --> 00:56:39,309
and then I design

1625
00:56:40,969 --> 00:56:42,889
a intensive just for you. And you can

1626
00:56:42,889 --> 00:56:45,949
learn more about that at durringventures.com/intensives.

1627
00:56:46,325 --> 00:56:48,805
I do have an online group program for

1628
00:56:48,805 --> 00:56:50,565
couples where I coach couples from all over

1629
00:56:50,565 --> 00:56:51,224
the world.

1630
00:56:52,244 --> 00:56:54,744
That is called Choose Connection Academy,

1631
00:56:55,684 --> 00:56:58,325
and you can go to chooseconnectionacademy.com,

1632
00:56:58,325 --> 00:56:59,465
learn more about that.

1633
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,159
If if this is interesting, I have a

1634
00:57:02,159 --> 00:57:04,079
book. They can download it for free, doctor

1635
00:57:04,079 --> 00:57:07,219
jakeportertoday.com/breakingbarriers.

1636
00:57:07,679 --> 00:57:09,679
Mhmm. The name of the book is Breaking

1637
00:57:09,679 --> 00:57:12,559
Barriers Building Bridges, the Couple Centered Recovery Model

1638
00:57:12,559 --> 00:57:14,260
for Lasting Connection After Betrayal.

1639
00:57:14,795 --> 00:57:17,114
And, if this if this is, like, sparked

1640
00:57:17,114 --> 00:57:19,114
your interest, it's a short book. It's an

1641
00:57:19,114 --> 00:57:21,195
easy read. It's got a QR code in

1642
00:57:21,195 --> 00:57:22,795
the back where you can scan and get

1643
00:57:22,795 --> 00:57:24,474
tons of videos if you're more of a

1644
00:57:24,474 --> 00:57:26,255
video person than a reading person.

1645
00:57:27,769 --> 00:57:29,690
But I give that away for free on

1646
00:57:29,690 --> 00:57:31,210
my website. If you want a hard copy,

1647
00:57:31,210 --> 00:57:31,949
you can also

1648
00:57:32,489 --> 00:57:35,050
get that on Amazon or wherever. But I

1649
00:57:35,050 --> 00:57:36,730
love that. But it's free free. I'll put

1650
00:57:36,730 --> 00:57:38,730
that I'll put that link in there. Jake,

1651
00:57:38,730 --> 00:57:41,315
this is a freaking blast, man. I, you

1652
00:57:41,315 --> 00:57:42,914
know, I hope so many couples listen to

1653
00:57:42,914 --> 00:57:44,594
this and kind of saw some of the

1654
00:57:44,594 --> 00:57:46,755
pitfalls they're falling into. There's there's a more

1655
00:57:46,835 --> 00:57:48,914
I'll tell every couple with this. There is

1656
00:57:48,914 --> 00:57:50,135
a more constructive

1657
00:57:50,594 --> 00:57:53,680
way to deal with this process, but I

1658
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,000
I think one thing that I saw all

1659
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,800
through this podcast was how hard it is

1660
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,599
actually because of our own stuff Yes. To

1661
00:58:01,599 --> 00:58:03,440
do it in that constructive way because there

1662
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:04,894
is this just urge

1663
00:58:05,275 --> 00:58:05,934
to explain,

1664
00:58:06,474 --> 00:58:09,434
defend, seek justice, seek, you know, it's it's

1665
00:58:09,434 --> 00:58:11,355
it's just this it's brewing, and and all

1666
00:58:11,355 --> 00:58:13,034
it does is screw up what both of

1667
00:58:13,034 --> 00:58:15,195
you are trying to accomplish. Jake, this was

1668
00:58:15,195 --> 00:58:16,795
this was so awesome, man. Thanks for Hey,

1669
00:58:16,795 --> 00:58:19,280
Roland. I enjoyed it very much. It's a

1670
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,900
you're you're a fun conversation partner.

1671
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,360
I appreciate the opportunity. Yes. This is a

1672
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:26,539
blast, man. Thanks for listening to this episode.

1673
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:28,280
If you are a high achiever of the

1674
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,200
sex addiction and you're looking for a recovery

1675
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:33,824
group full of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1676
00:58:33,824 --> 00:58:36,625
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1677
00:58:36,625 --> 00:58:37,925
using four day retreats,

1678
00:58:38,224 --> 00:58:41,045
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1679
00:58:41,105 --> 00:58:43,265
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1680
00:58:43,265 --> 00:58:45,190
save your marriage, go to our website and

1681
00:58:45,190 --> 00:58:47,510
fill out an application. If you enjoyed this

1682
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:49,750
episode, please pass it along to a friend

1683
00:58:49,750 --> 00:58:51,670
in recovery who would benefit from listening. It

1684
00:58:51,670 --> 00:58:53,430
is my mission to get this information out

1685
00:58:53,430 --> 00:58:55,910
to as many high achievers as possible, and

1686
00:58:55,910 --> 00:58:57,449
I can't do it without your help.