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Thriving after betrayal. It's one of the harder

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things that couples run into. Right? Recovery, you

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know, that there's road maps for that. But

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again, to come back together and actually have

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a marriage that's better than it was before,

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let's face it. It's not easy, but there

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is a road map that can get you

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there and that is exactly what we're gonna

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discuss in this episode.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives, and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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high and recovery principles

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specifically to the mindset of the high achiever.

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I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder of The

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Successful Addict, a recovery group for high achieving

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men struggling with sex and porn addiction. For

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more information about joining our group or attending

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our next retreat, visit successful addict dot com.

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And now enjoy the rest of the episode.

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I'm here with the Rabsmiths,

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which,

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for a lot of you probably don't need

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an introduction because,

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Joanna and Matthew have done a fantastic job

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of,

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shining light in this space,

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bringing hope into this space, resources into this

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space.

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You guys are a a household name in

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the in the sex fiction field. How cool

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is that?

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I'm trying I'm trying to get my way

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there because I do. I I just like

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you guys, you know, I'm I'm familiar with

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your I've heard your story a couple different

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occasions.

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And just like mine, it's like,

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something about this space that I just can't

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I couldn't just be a I couldn't just

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be an addict

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who recovered and got out. It was like,

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man, this is messed up. Like and the

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more I was standing here, I'm like, that's

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messed up, and that's messed up, and that's

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messed up. And then I keep looking, I'm

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like, this whole thing's messed up. And so

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I I couldn't I just couldn't knowingly walk

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away. And so, started this podcast and I'm

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happy to have you guys here because,

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what we're gonna be talking about today is

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more of, like, most of my episodes is

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how do we understand this thing so that

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we can recover? You know, I think there's

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so much of an emphasis on the crisis

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phase, and that's why I don't really talk

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about that much in my podcast is there's

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tons of podcasts out there. You guys have

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talked about that plenty, and your your resources

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are fantastic for that. So it's like, I

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don't I'm not trying to ever recreate the

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wheel. I'm, I'm I'm trying to, like, how

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do we thrive in this thing individually? How

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do we thrive as a couple? So,

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and more importantly, because, most of my listeners

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are,

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executives, entrepreneurs,

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business owners of some kind, you know, I,

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I always kind of cater the conversation really

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to them because we are up against a

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really unique set of challenges. So let's dive

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let's dive right in. What we were talking

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about before we hit record was,

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the the

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the successful

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culture that we have built, especially in America

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and what that tee how that kinda tees

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us up for failure. Matt, you were you

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were speaking to some critical pieces. I'm gonna

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actually have you lead off. I'll I'll I'll

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add on any that I forgot, but, you

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know, as we're talking about

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compulsive sexuality, just cheating and fidelity in general,

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How does this happen, like, to couples who

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seemingly it shouldn't happen to? You know, wife's

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super attractive, husband's attractive, they live this really

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beautiful life, they live in a beautiful home,

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they have access to everything in the world,

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and all of a sudden people are cheating

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on each other. What the heck's going on?

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Yeah. And it happens way more than you

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realize. Like, we we

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when we first got started, it was amazing

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how many couples were coming to us who

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were super successful. Right? They were CEOs. They

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were running companies. They were doing all the

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things they wanted to do. They had everything

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in life that you would think, like, you

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need to to have the great marriage,

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the great connection, and they were falling apart.

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Right? They were just coming into our offices

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going, like, I I don't know if we

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have another day in, let alone another year.

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And we'd start to talk about it, and

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you would. You'd uncover all this infidelity, right,

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all these all these different behaviors. And the

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wife's looking at us going, like, I don't

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think I can trust this guy. Like, I'm

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not I'm not sure that I'm ever gonna

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step back into this space. And what's amazing

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is for someone to be that successful

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in such a in kind of that business

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space, in that professional space, and then to

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struggle so mightily in the relational space. And

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I think part of the reality is there's

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just two different spaces, and I don't think

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we talk about that enough. Like, it is

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different

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going into a boardroom than in the bedroom.

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Right? It's different walking through

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a relationship with a intimate romantic partner where

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there's vulnerability. There's a much different dance, and

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so many of us weren't trained for that.

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We weren't trained for that kind of relationship,

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that kind of connection.

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And so we lean into what we were

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trained. And

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most men were trained, like, my sexual appetite

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is what I go after. Right? What what

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is what I'm gonna go and get, I'm

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gonna go have. And if I've got the

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resources, then I have access to more of

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that. And so that's the life I'm used

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to, and then I kinda step into this

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marriage relationship, this this kind of more family

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oriented relationship, and it's a totally different game.

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Yeah. And I think

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as

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you desire more and more connection and intimacy

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in that close relationship, more and more vulnerability

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is required. And I think in general, in

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our culture,

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vulnerability is discouraged in men. Right? Like, from

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a very young age, it's kind of drilled

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into guys that it's not okay to have

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emotions. It's not okay to have feelings. And

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I think the more successful you are, the

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more responsibility

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you then have, the more risk of exposure

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in that vulnerability. Right? That you you can

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really be harmed. Even your family can maybe

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be harmed. Right? And so I think that

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a lot of times they've learned to build

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a protective wall around themselves for multiple different

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reasons.

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And Matt said something interesting because I think

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it goes along. I had my last guest,

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she was talking about this too. She said,

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you know, there's conversations that couples aren't having

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before they get married. And Matt just brought

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something up

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that is,

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I get why it doesn't come up because,

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it's kind of a weird thing to bring

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up. But, you know, for the ladies

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dating and interested in successful men, which we

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know is a lot of I mean, statistically,

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we know the number one attracting feature is

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income potential, right, and it's just and and

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it's been the last research I saw said

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that it was growing, that income potential is

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actually becoming even higher of a, attractive trait.

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But again, for when you're getting with a

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guy like that, there are some things to

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ask

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that seem bizarre to ask. Like,

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hey, have, you know, does do does part

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of your successful

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journey involve

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stacking up women as trophies? Like, was that

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a part of your high school and college

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experience?

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And what do you think you're going to

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be able to turn that off now that

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we're married? I mean, that is a

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awkward question to ask your partner because here

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you are, you're dating,

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he, you know, you're four months in for

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to your knowledge, he hasn't cheated on you

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yet. And it's really hard to ask, hey,

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like, how was this behavior something that you

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did? Because it's very common for

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outgoing charismatic males to,

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chase chase women in high school and college.

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And but again, it's one of those awkward

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things of, like, how do I know this

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is gonna stop? How do you know this

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is gonna stop? Yeah. Right? And I think

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I think it's a tough question because I

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I know how the guy's gonna answer. He's

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gonna say, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was

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just college.

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But in the end, I I think,

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come on. I I run these groups.

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It didn't stop. It might have stopped for

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a couple years, and then it came right

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back. So but I think that's part of

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what we're talking about around,

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the image of success being set kind of

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to your point, Matt, being separate from

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a monogamous

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committed relationship where we're preserving the sexual container.

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I mean, these are these are very, very,

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very different discussions. And I would say we

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live in a world that doesn't I know

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we claim to value monogamy and preserving the

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sexual energy, but I like I said, I

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don't I don't I don't see that. I

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see a world that uses sex for almost

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anything but the relationship.

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Are you guys seeing the same thing and

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what impact have you seen on that with

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your clients?

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Oh, absolutely. And I mean and it's not

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to take the responsibility off of anybody, but

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it is to be real about the environments

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that we're building. When I talk to the

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guys who are talking about the conferences that

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they go to, the meetings that they're a

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part of, the the ways that deals are

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getting done, right,

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it's almost always that sex, right, alcohol,

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power, all influence, all of these things are

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getting melded into one, and they're being used

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as a part of the kind of financial,

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the business system.

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And so

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having someone

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in that system who has that history, like

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you said, of maybe, hey. I'm used to

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my my sense of kind of worth or

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I'm used to my sense of well-being being

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partly attached to who I'm with, how many

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people I'm with, how attractive they are, right,

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the way that the way that grants me

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status. And so if I've got that back

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history, I get put in this environment,

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it's it's almost an automatic and not remembering

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that the habits that we form when we're

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young are the habits that we keep unless

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we're actively fighting against them. And so it's

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not a surprise that we get these cases.

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Right? We're not usually, when we hear the

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story, we're like, yep. That makes sense. Like,

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it makes sense that you walked right into

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that trap. It caught you, and then you

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didn't get out. Right? And you didn't get

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out until she found out. Right? The wife

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is now devastated. Right? She's crushed

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because even if they didn't have the conversation,

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there still was that expectation. Right? And there

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was that expectation that said, hey. Wait a

264
00:09:19,705 --> 00:09:20,764
minute. I thought

265
00:09:21,225 --> 00:09:22,904
our life would be different. Right? It would

266
00:09:22,904 --> 00:09:23,725
be separated

267
00:09:24,105 --> 00:09:25,165
from that world.

268
00:09:25,990 --> 00:09:28,149
And that's oftentimes how it's kind of, you

269
00:09:28,149 --> 00:09:30,470
know, kind of shown. Right? Like, hey. Yeah.

270
00:09:30,470 --> 00:09:32,389
I know that's going on, but that's not

271
00:09:32,389 --> 00:09:34,629
what I do. Right? I'm I'm away from

272
00:09:34,629 --> 00:09:36,550
all that when they're actually facing. And and,

273
00:09:36,550 --> 00:09:38,330
Joanna, I gotta ask. Like,

274
00:09:39,014 --> 00:09:42,394
it's it I'm always shocked at how unaware

275
00:09:42,774 --> 00:09:44,774
the women are that this is going on

276
00:09:44,774 --> 00:09:46,074
in male culture. Like,

277
00:09:46,375 --> 00:09:48,454
I can't believe that they're, like, they're they're

278
00:09:48,454 --> 00:09:50,134
so, like, oh my gosh, men do that?

279
00:09:50,134 --> 00:09:52,289
I'm like, where have you been living? Like,

280
00:09:52,529 --> 00:09:54,449
I've known men have done that my whole

281
00:09:54,449 --> 00:09:56,929
life. Do you wanna speak to that? Why

282
00:09:57,009 --> 00:09:59,009
how like, is it something they don't wanna

283
00:09:59,009 --> 00:10:00,610
believe? Is it something like like, how do

284
00:10:00,690 --> 00:10:03,350
how are women so blind to the influence

285
00:10:03,490 --> 00:10:06,304
of this in male culture today? Absolutely. Yeah.

286
00:10:06,304 --> 00:10:08,065
I think we all are exposed to the

287
00:10:08,065 --> 00:10:09,605
culture. Right? But I think there's

288
00:10:09,904 --> 00:10:12,725
the real conversations are so siloed.

289
00:10:13,264 --> 00:10:15,345
Right? I don't know too many guys who

290
00:10:15,345 --> 00:10:17,285
are going around talking to their girlfriends

291
00:10:18,990 --> 00:10:22,029
sharing the details around what's actually going on.

292
00:10:22,029 --> 00:10:24,690
Right? And so it's it's not just hidden

293
00:10:24,750 --> 00:10:27,149
kind of in a relationship. Right? But it's

294
00:10:27,149 --> 00:10:29,790
also hidden in males in our culture. Right?

295
00:10:29,790 --> 00:10:31,730
Like, I know my guy friends had conversations

296
00:10:31,950 --> 00:10:34,214
that were very different than ones they ever

297
00:10:34,214 --> 00:10:36,294
had with me in middle school and high

298
00:10:36,294 --> 00:10:39,414
school and college. Right? And so going, like,

299
00:10:39,414 --> 00:10:42,375
not realizing not being aware what you're not

300
00:10:42,375 --> 00:10:44,774
aware of. Right? And so I think that's

301
00:10:44,774 --> 00:10:48,134
what so many partners in relationship. Right? And

302
00:10:48,134 --> 00:10:49,195
all of a sudden,

303
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,700
they they realize this little bit of information

304
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,840
when they get that little bit, right, that

305
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,299
first discovery day,

306
00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,759
all of a sudden, it all starts pouring

307
00:10:57,759 --> 00:10:58,820
out. They realize

308
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,000
how much they didn't know, or sometimes they

309
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,320
were just flat out lied to their whole

310
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,565
life. Right? Like, women are absolutely lied to

311
00:11:07,565 --> 00:11:09,024
when they're told things like

312
00:11:09,565 --> 00:11:12,125
pornography is not a big deal. Right? Like,

313
00:11:12,125 --> 00:11:15,165
it's it's it's it's a habit I struggle

314
00:11:15,165 --> 00:11:17,165
with, and it's okay. It's under control. Right?

315
00:11:17,165 --> 00:11:18,304
And it is amazing.

316
00:11:18,605 --> 00:11:20,589
Right? Because especially in a

317
00:11:21,129 --> 00:11:23,529
relationship, I have two choices at that point.

318
00:11:23,529 --> 00:11:25,289
Right? If I if my gut is telling

319
00:11:25,289 --> 00:11:28,169
me something feels off, I'm gonna ask my

320
00:11:28,169 --> 00:11:31,209
my spouse what's going on, and they lie.

321
00:11:31,209 --> 00:11:33,714
They flat out lie to my face, which

322
00:11:33,714 --> 00:11:36,134
is every single story I've ever heard. Right?

323
00:11:36,274 --> 00:11:39,235
Mine mine included. Yeah. I I I wished

324
00:11:39,235 --> 00:11:41,314
mine was I wish mine was coming clean,

325
00:11:41,314 --> 00:11:42,375
but, it wasn't.

326
00:11:43,394 --> 00:11:45,634
Nope. I've yet to hear that story. Right?

327
00:11:45,634 --> 00:11:46,855
There's always some

328
00:11:47,159 --> 00:11:48,059
piece of deception.

329
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:49,659
I'm left either

330
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,639
trusting my gut, which is so important for

331
00:11:53,639 --> 00:11:55,959
just my personal well-being, being able to trust

332
00:11:55,959 --> 00:11:57,100
myself and my intuition,

333
00:11:57,799 --> 00:11:58,299
or

334
00:11:58,919 --> 00:12:01,639
and that but that means not trusting my

335
00:12:01,639 --> 00:12:04,684
spouse that I have put everything into.

336
00:12:05,384 --> 00:12:07,945
Right? Like, I had basically tied my whole

337
00:12:07,945 --> 00:12:10,365
life, my whole well-being to this person.

338
00:12:10,665 --> 00:12:11,404
I'm completely,

339
00:12:11,945 --> 00:12:14,264
usually, intimate and vulnerable with this person for

340
00:12:14,264 --> 00:12:16,820
many women. Right? Like, they really are. They're

341
00:12:16,820 --> 00:12:18,500
showing up in the relationship that way even

342
00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:20,740
though their spouse is not. And so the

343
00:12:20,740 --> 00:12:21,240
idea

344
00:12:21,779 --> 00:12:24,419
that in that moment, not trusting my spouse

345
00:12:24,419 --> 00:12:27,539
means I lose that secure attachment. Secure attachment

346
00:12:27,539 --> 00:12:29,860
is one of the absolute base needs we

347
00:12:29,860 --> 00:12:31,605
all have to thrive in life. Right? And

348
00:12:31,605 --> 00:12:33,365
so so many women go, well, I would

349
00:12:33,365 --> 00:12:33,865
rather

350
00:12:34,565 --> 00:12:37,205
keep that secure attachment than trust my gut.

351
00:12:37,205 --> 00:12:39,445
And so they believe the lie, and they

352
00:12:39,445 --> 00:12:41,845
continue on. And so I think kind of

353
00:12:41,845 --> 00:12:44,485
just culturally and then even specifically in the

354
00:12:44,485 --> 00:12:46,485
relationship, those are some of the factors that

355
00:12:46,485 --> 00:12:48,240
play out. When you bring up that that

356
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,320
was perfect segue into my next point, which

357
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:50,820
was,

358
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:52,980
you know, when we're talking about

359
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:53,940
successful

360
00:12:54,399 --> 00:12:55,539
men, they typically,

361
00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:57,779
are with women.

362
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,320
They're with a a certain kind of woman,

363
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:01,919
and and it and it varies to a

364
00:13:01,919 --> 00:13:03,894
degree. But, typically, I would say together,

365
00:13:04,595 --> 00:13:07,495
there is this there is often a shared,

366
00:13:08,595 --> 00:13:10,914
a shared drive for, hey. Let's get the

367
00:13:10,914 --> 00:13:12,834
perfect life. Let's have the perfect family. Let's

368
00:13:12,834 --> 00:13:13,894
have the perfect vacations.

369
00:13:14,274 --> 00:13:15,954
Let's have let's just get let's have the

370
00:13:15,954 --> 00:13:18,839
vacation house. Let's let's do life perfectly. I

371
00:13:18,839 --> 00:13:20,199
think that and I think that's common, I

372
00:13:20,199 --> 00:13:20,940
think, amongst

373
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,679
high achievers. It's not a dream. It's actually

374
00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,379
something that can be obtained.

375
00:13:26,839 --> 00:13:29,639
And so that kind of venture, gets into

376
00:13:29,639 --> 00:13:30,919
this other aspect of,

377
00:13:33,345 --> 00:13:34,784
both, you know, I think I think the

378
00:13:34,784 --> 00:13:36,324
temptation there is,

379
00:13:37,184 --> 00:13:37,924
to look

380
00:13:38,384 --> 00:13:40,625
there's a desire to look perfect. And I

381
00:13:40,625 --> 00:13:42,565
think that introduces a whole,

382
00:13:43,184 --> 00:13:45,809
plethora of of challenges. I think, you know,

383
00:13:45,809 --> 00:13:47,809
I'm gonna I'm gonna speak to the male

384
00:13:47,809 --> 00:13:49,889
standpoint. I think, Joanna, you'd probably be best

385
00:13:49,889 --> 00:13:51,410
to speak to what it's like to be

386
00:13:51,410 --> 00:13:52,929
married and in that environment. You know, I

387
00:13:52,929 --> 00:13:54,610
think for for the men, there's a ton

388
00:13:54,610 --> 00:13:56,129
of pressure and I think with the pressure

389
00:13:56,129 --> 00:13:57,889
comes entitlement. I think none of us men

390
00:13:57,889 --> 00:13:58,934
wanna admit that.

391
00:13:59,414 --> 00:14:01,414
None of us wanna admit that I feel

392
00:14:01,414 --> 00:14:03,495
entitled to doing whatever I want because I

393
00:14:03,495 --> 00:14:05,815
earn money. I I think all of us,

394
00:14:05,815 --> 00:14:07,414
like, no. No. No. No. That's not me.

395
00:14:07,414 --> 00:14:09,414
I'll tell you this. In recovery, there is

396
00:14:09,414 --> 00:14:13,050
an aspect of I built this. Therefore, like

397
00:14:13,050 --> 00:14:15,050
like, you should be you should be thankful,

398
00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:16,970
you should be impressed. And, again, I I

399
00:14:17,050 --> 00:14:19,050
I'm not proud of that. I don't want

400
00:14:19,050 --> 00:14:21,050
that, but I think there is I think

401
00:14:21,050 --> 00:14:23,129
to some degree, because I'm pouring so much

402
00:14:23,129 --> 00:14:25,690
of myself into it, there is this, like,

403
00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:26,914
hey. Appreciate

404
00:14:27,534 --> 00:14:30,095
me, acknowledge me thing. And, that can go

405
00:14:30,095 --> 00:14:32,654
one of two ways. One, your you do

406
00:14:32,654 --> 00:14:34,894
get appreciated and acknowledged for it by your

407
00:14:34,894 --> 00:14:37,214
spouse and by and, again, I don't know

408
00:14:37,214 --> 00:14:39,779
if that validation is necessarily healthy. Or number

409
00:14:39,779 --> 00:14:41,860
two, your wife's like, so what? You may

410
00:14:42,019 --> 00:14:43,860
you you made a hundred k this month.

411
00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:46,419
Like, so, like, you were gone. We are

412
00:14:46,419 --> 00:14:48,500
disconnected. We haven't had sex in, like, three

413
00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:50,659
weeks. Like, you know, to her, it's like,

414
00:14:50,659 --> 00:14:52,500
so I don't care about that. So I

415
00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:55,014
think but that whole challenge is, well, well,

416
00:14:55,014 --> 00:14:56,294
it's like, well, what do you mean you

417
00:14:56,294 --> 00:14:57,815
don't care about? I thought we were building

418
00:14:57,815 --> 00:14:59,334
the perfect life. What do you mean you

419
00:14:59,334 --> 00:15:01,174
don't care about that? Right? It's this it's

420
00:15:01,174 --> 00:15:04,235
this interesting thing about, again, about successful culture

421
00:15:04,855 --> 00:15:06,855
of, hey. I thought we were building something

422
00:15:06,855 --> 00:15:08,934
perfect together, and it's supposed to go this

423
00:15:08,934 --> 00:15:12,129
way. And I think that is another confounding

424
00:15:12,190 --> 00:15:14,750
element. I think it contributes to acting out

425
00:15:14,750 --> 00:15:15,490
and the

426
00:15:15,790 --> 00:15:18,029
progression of acting out. But then I also

427
00:15:18,029 --> 00:15:20,269
think it harms the recovery aspect because I

428
00:15:20,269 --> 00:15:21,649
think when there's this

429
00:15:22,264 --> 00:15:25,485
whole we're perfect, we don't have problems thing,

430
00:15:25,705 --> 00:15:28,924
it really messes with the coupleship because

431
00:15:29,544 --> 00:15:32,184
now it's rather than just healing and and

432
00:15:32,184 --> 00:15:33,965
adhering to sound psychological,

433
00:15:34,904 --> 00:15:36,845
you know, and relational principles,

434
00:15:37,289 --> 00:15:39,769
You're trying to juggle something that has nothing

435
00:15:39,769 --> 00:15:42,589
to do with humanity. Right? Perfection standards,

436
00:15:43,049 --> 00:15:43,549
expectations,

437
00:15:44,730 --> 00:15:47,950
purity culture, ideals. Right? I mean, I constantly

438
00:15:48,009 --> 00:15:49,850
saw my wife. It was like, oh my

439
00:15:49,850 --> 00:15:51,629
gosh. You I put you here,

440
00:15:51,945 --> 00:15:54,985
and now all that's all that's gone. It

441
00:15:54,985 --> 00:15:57,804
turns out that you weren't there. You're actually

442
00:15:57,945 --> 00:16:00,264
someone. So now she's freaking out. But I

443
00:16:00,264 --> 00:16:02,024
think it's a it's a pretty big distraction

444
00:16:02,024 --> 00:16:03,945
because rather than, again, focusing on what we

445
00:16:03,945 --> 00:16:05,245
should be focusing on,

446
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:06,490
we're

447
00:16:06,950 --> 00:16:08,789
we're kind of caught up in what the

448
00:16:08,789 --> 00:16:10,870
world how mad the world is at what

449
00:16:10,870 --> 00:16:12,870
we did rather than what we are gonna

450
00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:13,850
do as a couple.

451
00:16:14,549 --> 00:16:16,710
Matt, I well, first, Joanna, speak to the

452
00:16:16,950 --> 00:16:19,049
what it's like to be the woman in

453
00:16:19,269 --> 00:16:19,769
that

454
00:16:20,634 --> 00:16:23,034
we are perfect and striving for perfect environment

455
00:16:23,034 --> 00:16:24,315
because that's a it's it's a it's a

456
00:16:24,315 --> 00:16:27,034
it's a tough and distracting place to be.

457
00:16:27,034 --> 00:16:29,674
Yes. Absolutely. And I think so much of

458
00:16:29,674 --> 00:16:30,154
that

459
00:16:30,554 --> 00:16:31,855
if you're in that place,

460
00:16:32,315 --> 00:16:35,639
there's a a high level oftentimes of control

461
00:16:35,779 --> 00:16:38,980
that you feel in your life. Right? And

462
00:16:38,980 --> 00:16:41,059
and you have to hold on to that

463
00:16:41,059 --> 00:16:41,559
control

464
00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:44,740
to be able to continue living that perfect

465
00:16:44,740 --> 00:16:46,679
life. And so for partners,

466
00:16:47,274 --> 00:16:49,834
what is app what is immediately stripped away

467
00:16:49,834 --> 00:16:51,995
from them when they discover what their spouse

468
00:16:51,995 --> 00:16:53,855
has been doing when they discover the betrayal,

469
00:16:53,995 --> 00:16:56,575
it's any sense of control. They feel absolutely

470
00:16:56,634 --> 00:16:59,054
out of control. They feel absolutely powerless,

471
00:16:59,529 --> 00:17:00,509
which I think is

472
00:17:00,889 --> 00:17:03,610
part of why for them that feels so

473
00:17:03,610 --> 00:17:06,410
scary because they don't know what all does

474
00:17:06,410 --> 00:17:08,650
this mean I'm going to lose. Right? And

475
00:17:08,650 --> 00:17:11,289
not only that, but what all what does

476
00:17:11,289 --> 00:17:13,230
that mean about the reality

477
00:17:13,609 --> 00:17:15,805
of this perfect life I thought we were

478
00:17:15,805 --> 00:17:18,384
living? So many of my partners say, like,

479
00:17:18,445 --> 00:17:20,684
we were the couple. We were the couple

480
00:17:20,684 --> 00:17:22,684
all of our other friends pointed to to

481
00:17:22,684 --> 00:17:24,765
say, like, they have the perfect life, the

482
00:17:24,765 --> 00:17:26,545
perfect family, the perfect marriage,

483
00:17:26,859 --> 00:17:29,259
and now all of that is shattered. Right?

484
00:17:29,259 --> 00:17:31,659
I bought into that narrative too, and now

485
00:17:31,659 --> 00:17:34,059
none of it feels true. And that's why

486
00:17:34,139 --> 00:17:36,399
that's part of why that is so traumatic

487
00:17:36,619 --> 00:17:40,035
for those partners. Right? Yes. Entire reality comes

488
00:17:40,195 --> 00:17:41,015
crashing down.

489
00:17:41,474 --> 00:17:44,275
Oftentimes, it went not even day. Like, one

490
00:17:44,275 --> 00:17:44,775
moment,

491
00:17:45,075 --> 00:17:47,634
right, when they discover, like, oh, things are

492
00:17:47,634 --> 00:17:50,115
not as they see. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well

493
00:17:50,115 --> 00:17:51,875
said. Well said. And then and, Matt, to

494
00:17:51,875 --> 00:17:52,615
you, like,

495
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:55,429
how is this confound the because I do.

496
00:17:55,429 --> 00:17:57,130
I see it. It introduces

497
00:17:57,509 --> 00:17:59,990
another ball to juggle when you do not

498
00:17:59,990 --> 00:18:01,509
need another ball to juggle. I mean, the

499
00:18:01,509 --> 00:18:03,750
last thing a couple in betrayal needs is

500
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:06,490
one more, but you do. You have this

501
00:18:07,144 --> 00:18:07,644
image,

502
00:18:08,265 --> 00:18:08,984
man, you know,

503
00:18:09,625 --> 00:18:12,024
what what's my what's my, what are our

504
00:18:12,024 --> 00:18:13,464
friends gonna think? What do we you know,

505
00:18:13,464 --> 00:18:16,184
it's a it's it's a bigger distraction than

506
00:18:16,184 --> 00:18:16,765
I think

507
00:18:17,384 --> 00:18:19,410
a lot of couples give credit for because

508
00:18:19,410 --> 00:18:22,210
it's especially from a men's, a guy standpoint.

509
00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:23,490
Because I'll tell you this right now, and

510
00:18:23,490 --> 00:18:24,769
I I don't know if I've ever shared

511
00:18:24,769 --> 00:18:26,369
this, so this is very vulnerable. I'm gonna

512
00:18:26,369 --> 00:18:27,509
be completely honest.

513
00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:29,910
When I when this whole thing happened,

514
00:18:30,610 --> 00:18:32,690
I my first reaction wasn't, oh, crap. I'm

515
00:18:32,690 --> 00:18:34,694
gonna lose my wife. My first reaction I

516
00:18:34,694 --> 00:18:35,974
I hate saying this out loud. I can't

517
00:18:35,974 --> 00:18:37,034
believe I'm doing this.

518
00:18:37,335 --> 00:18:39,815
My first reaction was, oh, crap. I'm not

519
00:18:39,815 --> 00:18:41,014
gonna be able to be the guy I

520
00:18:41,014 --> 00:18:42,335
wanted to be. I'm not gonna be able

521
00:18:42,335 --> 00:18:44,054
to go to the after parties after the

522
00:18:44,054 --> 00:18:45,494
conference. I'm not gonna be able to go

523
00:18:45,494 --> 00:18:47,575
to this thing with the mastermind group. I'm

524
00:18:47,575 --> 00:18:49,089
not gonna be able to if if I'm

525
00:18:49,089 --> 00:18:50,609
not gonna be able to flirt because that

526
00:18:50,609 --> 00:18:52,289
was a part of the recipe was, like,

527
00:18:52,289 --> 00:18:53,889
oh, I need to be this, like, guy

528
00:18:53,889 --> 00:18:55,809
who women are just, like, lusting at. Like,

529
00:18:55,809 --> 00:18:56,690
all of a sudden, it's like, oh my

530
00:18:56,690 --> 00:18:58,389
gosh. I'm I'm gonna lose everything

531
00:18:58,929 --> 00:19:00,609
that at from a 14 year old boy

532
00:19:00,609 --> 00:19:02,525
and all the way up from 14 to

533
00:19:02,525 --> 00:19:03,904
34, 20 years,

534
00:19:04,285 --> 00:19:06,045
I've been trying to get the perfect six

535
00:19:06,045 --> 00:19:08,125
pack, the perfect outfit, the you know, and

536
00:19:08,125 --> 00:19:09,724
all of a sudden, it's like, well, now

537
00:19:09,724 --> 00:19:11,964
she's she's she's gonna pull all that from

538
00:19:11,964 --> 00:19:14,285
me. And now, like, so now what all

539
00:19:14,285 --> 00:19:15,964
I have is my marriage with a woman

540
00:19:15,964 --> 00:19:17,470
who doesn't even like me anymore because I'm

541
00:19:17,470 --> 00:19:18,830
a cheat you know, it's like, that was

542
00:19:18,830 --> 00:19:19,750
the first thing that went into my mind.

543
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:20,830
It was like, man, I should I should

544
00:19:20,830 --> 00:19:23,090
just run. I should just run away. Yeah.

545
00:19:23,150 --> 00:19:24,670
Well, and that's I mean, it's common. I've

546
00:19:24,670 --> 00:19:25,870
had a lot of guys in my office

547
00:19:25,870 --> 00:19:27,789
who've who've said the same thing. Right? Like,

548
00:19:27,789 --> 00:19:29,230
wait a minute. Hold on. Does this mean

549
00:19:29,230 --> 00:19:30,130
everything changes?

550
00:19:30,684 --> 00:19:32,525
And does this mean that, right, my life

551
00:19:32,525 --> 00:19:34,525
is totally different? And I get the joy

552
00:19:34,525 --> 00:19:36,365
of telling them, yeah. It actually does. You're

553
00:19:36,365 --> 00:19:38,224
not gonna be the same. Sorry, buddy.

554
00:19:38,765 --> 00:19:40,285
It doesn't mean it's going to suck, and

555
00:19:40,285 --> 00:19:42,065
I think that's the key. Right? Like,

556
00:19:42,525 --> 00:19:44,640
the life in recovery is a good life.

557
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,880
It is a different life. Better. A good

558
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:48,559
life. It's much better. Like, I look at

559
00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:50,359
my addict life and my recovery life, and

560
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,000
I there's not a choice. I mean, it's

561
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,680
not a second that I think about that

562
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,920
old life that I want it back. It

563
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,544
is recognizing, though, like Joanna said, there's so

564
00:19:58,544 --> 00:20:01,125
much control involved in high achieving couples,

565
00:20:01,504 --> 00:20:04,464
and part of recovery is recognizing I'm actually

566
00:20:04,464 --> 00:20:05,924
going to have to give up control.

567
00:20:06,544 --> 00:20:08,384
Part of, like, the whole 12 step idea

568
00:20:08,384 --> 00:20:10,144
is that you think you have control over

569
00:20:10,144 --> 00:20:11,825
your life. Your life is so out of

570
00:20:11,825 --> 00:20:12,325
control.

571
00:20:12,730 --> 00:20:14,329
You're going to have to decide if you're

572
00:20:14,329 --> 00:20:15,950
gonna give up control

573
00:20:16,409 --> 00:20:18,909
and really even just controlling the narrative. Now

574
00:20:18,970 --> 00:20:20,970
a lot of times for couples, we found

575
00:20:20,970 --> 00:20:22,889
they're not public in this information, and that's

576
00:20:22,889 --> 00:20:25,734
not necessarily something we we, like, recommend. Like,

577
00:20:25,734 --> 00:20:27,654
hey. Let's go tell everybody. We didn't tell

578
00:20:27,654 --> 00:20:29,595
very many people when we were early on,

579
00:20:29,815 --> 00:20:32,075
but the but the control in the relationship

580
00:20:32,214 --> 00:20:34,054
will be a radical shift. Right? There will

581
00:20:34,054 --> 00:20:36,934
be hard conversations about, hey. What does it

582
00:20:36,934 --> 00:20:38,640
look like to go to a conference now?

583
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:40,799
I worked with a lot of pilots. Right?

584
00:20:40,799 --> 00:20:42,240
And they're like, what does it look like

585
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:43,680
to travel? What does it look like to

586
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:44,740
work for my company

587
00:20:45,279 --> 00:20:46,880
to be what I to do what I

588
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,799
do? Yeah. Can I do that, like you

589
00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:51,914
said, without the flirting, without the partying, right,

590
00:20:51,914 --> 00:20:54,075
without all of the things that led me

591
00:20:54,075 --> 00:20:56,315
to this path that destroyed my marriage and

592
00:20:56,315 --> 00:20:58,875
destroyed my life, can I still have those

593
00:20:58,875 --> 00:21:01,934
same levels of success? And and and

594
00:21:02,954 --> 00:21:04,954
guess what? That is gonna be part of

595
00:21:04,954 --> 00:21:07,380
our our conversation. Because if those things were

596
00:21:07,380 --> 00:21:09,420
a part of what destroyed our marriage, they're

597
00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:11,279
going to be a part of our conversation

598
00:21:11,340 --> 00:21:13,420
going forward. Even if it's my work life,

599
00:21:13,420 --> 00:21:14,240
it's still

600
00:21:14,620 --> 00:21:16,700
affecting my home life. Mhmm. And, Matt, I

601
00:21:16,779 --> 00:21:18,860
it's funny. I've done so many of these

602
00:21:18,860 --> 00:21:20,700
episodes. You guys are you guys will be

603
00:21:21,180 --> 00:21:23,345
I don't know, episode 50, I think. It's

604
00:21:23,345 --> 00:21:24,964
funny, I don't think anyone's

605
00:21:25,345 --> 00:21:26,944
spoke to what you're speaking to, Matt, and

606
00:21:26,944 --> 00:21:28,944
it's and it's I'm happy that you're doing

607
00:21:28,944 --> 00:21:30,544
it. I speak to it on my solo

608
00:21:30,544 --> 00:21:32,625
episodes, but when I'm with therapists, it's not

609
00:21:32,625 --> 00:21:35,265
common that they're very rarely do therapists actually

610
00:21:35,265 --> 00:21:35,765
understand

611
00:21:36,309 --> 00:21:39,529
successful male culture or successful successful men because,

612
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:41,990
they either they either haven't, you know, been

613
00:21:41,990 --> 00:21:43,430
a massive part of that. You know, typically,

614
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:45,430
I would say therapists are healers and so

615
00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:47,190
they may or may not be that familiar

616
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:48,950
with that. But, Matt, you're bringing something up

617
00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:51,430
that is so true. And, Joanna, you touched

618
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:52,005
on it too.

619
00:21:52,565 --> 00:21:55,224
So much of this have been interwoven, like,

620
00:21:55,285 --> 00:21:57,065
it's like, oh, success now is

621
00:21:58,404 --> 00:21:59,704
partying alcohol.

622
00:22:00,085 --> 00:22:00,825
It is,

623
00:22:02,404 --> 00:22:04,404
you know, flirting. And I would I would

624
00:22:04,404 --> 00:22:06,000
say not just even flirting with the opposite

625
00:22:06,079 --> 00:22:08,960
sex, but, you know, flirting with the same

626
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,059
sex. So, oh, wow. That's a nice watch.

627
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:12,640
Oh, hey. Wow. I like your you know,

628
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,720
it's it's this you know, so much of

629
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,759
business has turned into, you know, relationship, relationship,

630
00:22:17,759 --> 00:22:20,259
relationship. But more than that, it's turned into

631
00:22:20,724 --> 00:22:23,044
how do we have these how do we

632
00:22:23,044 --> 00:22:23,865
have these, like,

633
00:22:24,244 --> 00:22:25,304
exciting transactional

634
00:22:25,605 --> 00:22:28,244
relationships in condensed little ways? And it's, you

635
00:22:28,244 --> 00:22:29,684
know, these little self you know, what what

636
00:22:29,684 --> 00:22:31,524
do they call it in fight club? Self

637
00:22:31,764 --> 00:22:33,224
or, single serving friends.

638
00:22:33,605 --> 00:22:35,044
You know, it's it's it's that's really what

639
00:22:35,044 --> 00:22:37,170
it is. Right? It's like we get into

640
00:22:37,230 --> 00:22:40,349
involved where every single buddy every single person

641
00:22:40,349 --> 00:22:42,750
is this, like, single serving thing with an

642
00:22:42,750 --> 00:22:44,990
objective at the end of it. And to

643
00:22:44,990 --> 00:22:46,930
your point, that's, a,

644
00:22:47,470 --> 00:22:49,835
how healthy is that culture and, like, you

645
00:22:49,835 --> 00:22:51,355
know, just just kinda watch that and just

646
00:22:51,355 --> 00:22:53,115
make sure it's not not not you know?

647
00:22:53,115 --> 00:22:54,954
I I fell way into it before I

648
00:22:54,954 --> 00:22:56,795
knew I was into it. I I thought

649
00:22:56,795 --> 00:22:59,115
everyone else was crazy for thinking that it

650
00:22:59,115 --> 00:23:00,795
was crazy because I'm like, there's nothing crazy

651
00:23:00,795 --> 00:23:02,990
about it. This is how success works. And

652
00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:05,230
I think that was when people started trying

653
00:23:05,230 --> 00:23:07,710
to rip this from me. I was very

654
00:23:07,710 --> 00:23:09,710
defensive, not because of the acting out behaviors.

655
00:23:09,710 --> 00:23:11,549
I actually I actually had tried to stop

656
00:23:11,549 --> 00:23:12,990
those before I met my wife. I have

657
00:23:12,990 --> 00:23:15,070
evidence of me doing all sorts of things

658
00:23:15,070 --> 00:23:16,509
to try and stop those. Those I've never

659
00:23:16,509 --> 00:23:17,730
really wanted in my life.

660
00:23:18,174 --> 00:23:18,755
The problem

661
00:23:19,695 --> 00:23:21,615
was the other stuff, the selling out, the

662
00:23:21,615 --> 00:23:24,414
double life, triple life, quadruple life, putting on

663
00:23:24,414 --> 00:23:26,255
a show for people, saying what they want,

664
00:23:26,255 --> 00:23:27,555
suppressing my own needs,

665
00:23:28,174 --> 00:23:30,174
kind of constructing my entire life, buying things

666
00:23:30,174 --> 00:23:32,029
that I don't need. I mean, you know,

667
00:23:32,029 --> 00:23:35,230
I was so into giving putting looking the

668
00:23:35,230 --> 00:23:37,389
way that they wanted me to look Yeah.

669
00:23:37,549 --> 00:23:39,809
That it really opened the door to

670
00:23:40,269 --> 00:23:41,490
why be honest.

671
00:23:42,269 --> 00:23:44,190
Why have integrity? Right? I mean, if if

672
00:23:44,190 --> 00:23:45,809
I can succeed by being

673
00:23:46,349 --> 00:23:47,169
one of these

674
00:23:47,524 --> 00:23:49,444
85 people that I get to choose to

675
00:23:49,444 --> 00:23:51,524
be that day, why would I be one

676
00:23:51,524 --> 00:23:52,024
person?

677
00:23:52,484 --> 00:23:54,484
And the challenge with that is to your

678
00:23:54,484 --> 00:23:55,625
point, Matt,

679
00:23:56,325 --> 00:23:58,244
if you're not one person, how do you

680
00:23:58,244 --> 00:24:01,140
know who you are when you're that person?

681
00:24:01,140 --> 00:24:03,059
And because here's what I realized. Out of

682
00:24:03,059 --> 00:24:05,539
my 85 egos or parts, whatever you wanna

683
00:24:05,539 --> 00:24:07,460
call them, out of my 85 egos that

684
00:24:07,460 --> 00:24:09,539
I have, 74 of them cheat on my

685
00:24:09,539 --> 00:24:10,039
wife.

686
00:24:10,420 --> 00:24:10,920
Mhmm.

687
00:24:11,299 --> 00:24:12,900
That so that's why I would really ask

688
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:14,875
all the guys listening is, like, I get

689
00:24:14,875 --> 00:24:16,315
it. You're a shape shifter, and it is

690
00:24:16,315 --> 00:24:18,154
a skill. Absolutely. And I'm not asking you

691
00:24:18,154 --> 00:24:20,154
to stop that skill. What I want you

692
00:24:20,154 --> 00:24:21,994
to be really honest is is of those

693
00:24:21,994 --> 00:24:23,595
people that you shape shift into, how many

694
00:24:23,595 --> 00:24:25,035
of them are how many of them how

695
00:24:25,035 --> 00:24:26,335
many of them value monogamy?

696
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,359
Right? The truth is a lot of them

697
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,220
don't. They want money, attention.

698
00:24:30,519 --> 00:24:31,720
They wanna be the best guy in the

699
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,779
room. And so

700
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,759
at a certain point, you know, maybe some

701
00:24:34,759 --> 00:24:36,680
guys will resonate this to some guys won't.

702
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,380
At a certain point, I liked

703
00:24:38,825 --> 00:24:39,964
how I was treated.

704
00:24:40,424 --> 00:24:42,744
I liked the I liked the Roland that

705
00:24:42,984 --> 00:24:45,964
I like the 74 Rollins that everybody treated.

706
00:24:46,025 --> 00:24:47,944
I like how they looked at him. The

707
00:24:47,944 --> 00:24:50,184
problem was he's not monogamous. He cares about

708
00:24:50,184 --> 00:24:51,869
one thing, one thing, and only showing off.

709
00:24:52,029 --> 00:24:53,710
Showing off and looking perfect. Right? And so

710
00:24:53,710 --> 00:24:55,549
I I really appreciate you highlighting that, Matt,

711
00:24:55,549 --> 00:24:56,450
because that's a

712
00:24:56,750 --> 00:24:57,490
that's a

713
00:24:57,950 --> 00:24:59,789
that's a big deal, and I think it's

714
00:24:59,789 --> 00:25:02,029
not getting the attention that it deserves is

715
00:25:02,029 --> 00:25:03,710
how much you know, I've said this before.

716
00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:05,970
Successful male culture is three steps back.

717
00:25:06,304 --> 00:25:08,065
So if you're not if your recovery is

718
00:25:08,065 --> 00:25:09,825
not at least three steps forward so you

719
00:25:09,825 --> 00:25:12,085
can stay neutral, then you are becoming

720
00:25:12,384 --> 00:25:14,704
less sober every day. So, ideally, you would

721
00:25:14,704 --> 00:25:16,464
be taking four steps forward or five steps

722
00:25:16,464 --> 00:25:18,304
forward. But I I think, again, to your

723
00:25:18,304 --> 00:25:20,065
point, Matt, I'm not trying to shift blame

724
00:25:20,065 --> 00:25:22,529
here because, ultimately, we were the ones that

725
00:25:22,529 --> 00:25:24,789
chose to go along with the culture.

726
00:25:25,250 --> 00:25:27,089
Yeah. But at the same time, let's not

727
00:25:27,089 --> 00:25:27,589
ignore

728
00:25:27,970 --> 00:25:29,569
something that we talk about in the sex

729
00:25:29,569 --> 00:25:31,589
education field, which is we are hardwired

730
00:25:31,890 --> 00:25:33,650
for connection. So if you think that you're

731
00:25:33,650 --> 00:25:36,414
gonna not care about the culture and the

732
00:25:36,414 --> 00:25:36,914
majority,

733
00:25:37,215 --> 00:25:38,894
you are. It's why I don't know if

734
00:25:38,894 --> 00:25:40,335
you guys know this. A lot of the

735
00:25:40,335 --> 00:25:42,275
porn porn industries went

736
00:25:42,575 --> 00:25:43,795
the every view

737
00:25:44,095 --> 00:25:46,335
on a video, they assign seven views so

738
00:25:46,335 --> 00:25:48,095
that the number is way higher than the

739
00:25:48,095 --> 00:25:50,769
real number so that guys feel less guilty

740
00:25:50,829 --> 00:25:52,349
watching it because they look at the counter

741
00:25:52,349 --> 00:25:54,750
and they say, oh, a 57,000

742
00:25:54,750 --> 00:25:56,670
guys have watched this in the last six

743
00:25:56,670 --> 00:25:58,210
days. I'm not weird.

744
00:25:58,509 --> 00:26:00,509
Mhmm. The idea is you know what they're

745
00:26:00,509 --> 00:26:02,429
doing. Right? And so which leads me to

746
00:26:02,429 --> 00:26:03,825
kind of the point that I wanna speak

747
00:26:03,825 --> 00:26:05,825
to, which is as a couple standpoint, I

748
00:26:05,825 --> 00:26:07,505
love having a couple on the show because

749
00:26:07,505 --> 00:26:08,804
we get to talk about something,

750
00:26:09,664 --> 00:26:11,505
that that, that's why I love Jeff and

751
00:26:11,505 --> 00:26:13,585
Judy's show too is, like, it's just it's

752
00:26:13,585 --> 00:26:15,024
such a fun thing that we really need

753
00:26:15,024 --> 00:26:17,184
to address because we kind of are talking

754
00:26:17,184 --> 00:26:19,640
about two different issues here. Yes. We are

755
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,119
talking about what guys have led to believe

756
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,380
that has made these behaviors possible,

757
00:26:24,759 --> 00:26:27,000
but I think, you know, the relationship's something

758
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,779
entirely different now. Like,

759
00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:29,819
reconciling

760
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:31,339
two worldviews,

761
00:26:32,545 --> 00:26:34,224
I don't think a lot of couples have

762
00:26:34,224 --> 00:26:37,825
really thought about that until now. And now

763
00:26:37,825 --> 00:26:40,644
it's like Yeah. Wow. We have to find

764
00:26:40,705 --> 00:26:41,765
two world views

765
00:26:42,065 --> 00:26:44,305
that collide, and they're asking questions they used

766
00:26:44,305 --> 00:26:45,845
not to ask. And so now

767
00:26:46,190 --> 00:26:46,690
times

768
00:26:47,470 --> 00:26:49,150
betrayal recovery. It's like, it's not really about

769
00:26:49,150 --> 00:26:50,990
the sex. It's like, so hold on. You

770
00:26:50,990 --> 00:26:53,549
think that that's, like, the point of life?

771
00:26:53,549 --> 00:26:55,069
Like, that's, like, a well you know, not

772
00:26:55,069 --> 00:26:56,670
like like, now it's like, I don't wanna

773
00:26:56,670 --> 00:26:58,190
be married to you for two reasons now.

774
00:26:58,190 --> 00:26:59,789
One, you're next. I would and I don't

775
00:26:59,789 --> 00:27:02,264
like your outlook. But, again, these are discussions

776
00:27:02,264 --> 00:27:04,764
that shocked me that these weren't coming up

777
00:27:04,825 --> 00:27:06,744
before they got married. But, nonetheless, that is

778
00:27:06,744 --> 00:27:08,105
why I think I agree with what Matt

779
00:27:08,105 --> 00:27:10,505
said. Life in this is way better than

780
00:27:10,505 --> 00:27:12,664
before because you and your wife should be

781
00:27:12,664 --> 00:27:14,904
having these good conversations. Whether you guys end

782
00:27:14,904 --> 00:27:16,890
up staying married or not, This is what

783
00:27:16,890 --> 00:27:18,650
relationship should we talk about. Like, this this

784
00:27:18,650 --> 00:27:20,650
is the stuff. We don't get distracted and

785
00:27:20,650 --> 00:27:21,869
just unsubscribe

786
00:27:22,330 --> 00:27:24,809
from rent everything real and opt into the

787
00:27:24,809 --> 00:27:27,930
world of capitalism materialism. Like, you know, there's

788
00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:29,609
realness here. So I would love to pivot

789
00:27:29,609 --> 00:27:31,365
into that direction because I think you guys

790
00:27:31,365 --> 00:27:32,884
do a really great job of speaking to

791
00:27:32,884 --> 00:27:34,644
that. So I think that's the first thing

792
00:27:34,644 --> 00:27:35,144
is,

793
00:27:35,605 --> 00:27:37,684
how do we reconcile this? You're now we

794
00:27:37,684 --> 00:27:39,384
have a woman who thinks

795
00:27:39,845 --> 00:27:42,484
all that guys who do what her husband

796
00:27:42,484 --> 00:27:42,984
did,

797
00:27:43,365 --> 00:27:45,365
it makes like, guys who do that are

798
00:27:45,365 --> 00:27:48,210
just a monsters, pigs. They have, like, stay

799
00:27:48,210 --> 00:27:50,210
away from them. These are how do you

800
00:27:50,210 --> 00:27:52,130
stay in a marriage with a guy, though,

801
00:27:52,130 --> 00:27:53,269
if that's what

802
00:27:53,570 --> 00:27:56,369
if guys who do this are that? And

803
00:27:56,369 --> 00:27:58,049
I mean, I'm supposed to stay married to

804
00:27:58,049 --> 00:27:59,650
a guy like that. I think I think

805
00:27:59,650 --> 00:28:02,125
it's a it's something that women need to

806
00:28:02,125 --> 00:28:04,545
face head on. Joanna, can you speak to

807
00:28:04,924 --> 00:28:06,845
that? Because really what your husband's asking you

808
00:28:06,845 --> 00:28:09,244
to do is kind of soften your morals

809
00:28:09,244 --> 00:28:10,924
and soften your values is what it feels

810
00:28:10,924 --> 00:28:13,244
like he's asking. When he's asking for you

811
00:28:13,244 --> 00:28:15,419
to kinda change your mind on that, that's

812
00:28:15,419 --> 00:28:18,379
a big ask. Yeah. Absolutely. What's so what's

813
00:28:18,379 --> 00:28:21,579
so interesting is you would assume that that's

814
00:28:21,579 --> 00:28:23,599
the view most of them would take immediately.

815
00:28:24,059 --> 00:28:26,559
And they do about the behaviors.

816
00:28:26,940 --> 00:28:28,399
They do about the choices.

817
00:28:29,085 --> 00:28:31,804
But it is amazing to me how many

818
00:28:31,804 --> 00:28:33,984
partners come into my office going,

819
00:28:34,365 --> 00:28:36,464
but no. But I've I've seen a different

820
00:28:36,525 --> 00:28:39,085
side of them. I know I've experienced something

821
00:28:39,085 --> 00:28:41,164
different. Right? And and usually, we're pretty upfront

822
00:28:41,164 --> 00:28:42,605
about that too. Like, you wouldn't have been

823
00:28:42,605 --> 00:28:44,769
married. You wouldn't have been, like, taken all

824
00:28:44,769 --> 00:28:46,950
the steps together that you have taken.

825
00:28:47,490 --> 00:28:49,809
There is something you've experienced in there, and

826
00:28:49,809 --> 00:28:52,690
that's something that you love. And if he

827
00:28:52,690 --> 00:28:55,009
could show up consistently in that way, I

828
00:28:55,009 --> 00:28:57,184
think that's what those partners want, and that's

829
00:28:57,184 --> 00:28:59,105
why they're willing to fight for it. Right?

830
00:28:59,105 --> 00:29:01,184
If they had never experienced any of that,

831
00:29:01,184 --> 00:29:02,865
they'd be out the door so fast. And

832
00:29:02,865 --> 00:29:05,345
sometimes they aren't. Some I'm like, I'm sure

833
00:29:05,345 --> 00:29:07,184
they are. But the ones who come into

834
00:29:07,184 --> 00:29:09,045
our office are going, wait.

835
00:29:09,779 --> 00:29:10,840
There has to be some

836
00:29:11,779 --> 00:29:14,820
shared values in there somewhere. Yeah. Right? And

837
00:29:14,820 --> 00:29:16,660
so a big part of the healing, the

838
00:29:16,660 --> 00:29:18,440
recovery process for the couple

839
00:29:18,980 --> 00:29:20,119
is rediscovering

840
00:29:21,059 --> 00:29:22,440
our shared values

841
00:29:22,980 --> 00:29:25,404
through this healing process. Process. And so that's

842
00:29:25,404 --> 00:29:27,484
that's one of the the journeys. It takes

843
00:29:27,484 --> 00:29:30,045
a while. It's not like day one. It's

844
00:29:30,045 --> 00:29:32,684
not even, like, year one sometimes. It's a

845
00:29:32,684 --> 00:29:34,625
long journey to get to that place.

846
00:29:34,924 --> 00:29:36,845
But at some point, there does need to

847
00:29:36,845 --> 00:29:37,744
be a reconciling

848
00:29:38,285 --> 00:29:41,390
of these, right, those different world views, experiences,

849
00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:42,190
values,

850
00:29:42,890 --> 00:29:45,769
creating something unified together. Because, like, Joanne and

851
00:29:45,769 --> 00:29:47,630
I, one of our shared values is, like,

852
00:29:47,690 --> 00:29:48,829
embodied experiences.

853
00:29:49,289 --> 00:29:51,369
We want to live life. We are just

854
00:29:51,529 --> 00:29:53,529
we do not wanna sit at home watching

855
00:29:53,529 --> 00:29:54,029
TV,

856
00:29:54,404 --> 00:29:56,244
doing the same thing over and over again.

857
00:29:56,244 --> 00:29:59,125
We we have both shared and talked about

858
00:29:59,125 --> 00:30:02,565
how much a really unique exciting life matters

859
00:30:02,565 --> 00:30:05,125
to us. And so our finances matter. The

860
00:30:05,125 --> 00:30:07,045
success in which we do our business matters

861
00:30:07,045 --> 00:30:09,769
because that feeds into that value. And so

862
00:30:09,769 --> 00:30:11,769
while we don't feel like we're attached to

863
00:30:11,769 --> 00:30:12,269
status

864
00:30:12,570 --> 00:30:14,809
or to something that just makes us look

865
00:30:14,809 --> 00:30:17,210
good, we know that shared experiences makes us

866
00:30:17,210 --> 00:30:19,529
happy. And so we both work hard. We

867
00:30:19,529 --> 00:30:22,490
educate ourselves. Right? We train ourselves to be

868
00:30:22,490 --> 00:30:24,144
good at what we do so we can

869
00:30:24,144 --> 00:30:26,625
go afford the kind of lived experiences that

870
00:30:26,625 --> 00:30:28,144
we want. And so we'll talk to couples

871
00:30:28,144 --> 00:30:30,144
all the time. Like, if you want to

872
00:30:30,144 --> 00:30:32,305
spend a year traveling around the world because

873
00:30:32,305 --> 00:30:34,224
that's the value that you have as a

874
00:30:34,224 --> 00:30:36,839
couple, that's the thing that matters to you,

875
00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:39,000
then then then you can get around that,

876
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,440
and you can talk about how do we

877
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,759
build a life that builds that. Right? And

878
00:30:42,759 --> 00:30:45,400
so so many of these couples, they want

879
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,319
to have a big impact. What what I've

880
00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:49,000
really been amazed when we're working with a

881
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,785
high achieving couple, one of their usually shared

882
00:30:51,785 --> 00:30:54,105
values is a deep impact on others. They

883
00:30:54,105 --> 00:30:55,724
wanna do something significant.

884
00:30:56,025 --> 00:30:57,545
And so a lot of times, we'll ask

885
00:30:57,545 --> 00:30:59,144
them, okay. Is that thing that you wanna

886
00:30:59,144 --> 00:31:01,565
do significant make $10,000,000,

887
00:31:01,625 --> 00:31:03,704
or is it to affect 10,000,000 people, or

888
00:31:03,704 --> 00:31:05,244
is it right what's the thing?

889
00:31:05,630 --> 00:31:07,890
And it's amazing how many of these couples

890
00:31:08,350 --> 00:31:10,830
end up later on in their journey doing

891
00:31:10,830 --> 00:31:14,750
something significant. Right? Either either starting something or

892
00:31:14,750 --> 00:31:16,769
helping to to create a movement.

893
00:31:17,070 --> 00:31:18,590
And that's where we talk about, like, you're

894
00:31:18,590 --> 00:31:21,285
gonna have that better that's the recovery experience.

895
00:31:21,525 --> 00:31:23,205
Right? That's the going, oh, I know what

896
00:31:23,205 --> 00:31:24,664
I was chasing before,

897
00:31:25,045 --> 00:31:27,205
and that was vanity. Right? That was wind.

898
00:31:27,205 --> 00:31:28,105
That was nothing.

899
00:31:28,565 --> 00:31:31,305
Now what we're chasing, we're one chasing together,

900
00:31:31,605 --> 00:31:33,445
and it's having some type of kind of

901
00:31:33,445 --> 00:31:35,144
legacy. It has an impact

902
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:37,339
that gives back. And even if that impact

903
00:31:37,339 --> 00:31:39,419
is just the betterment of our relationship. And

904
00:31:39,419 --> 00:31:41,259
so I think Joanna is absolutely right. It's

905
00:31:41,259 --> 00:31:43,579
that it's that sense of shared values. And

906
00:31:43,579 --> 00:31:45,359
then I think the other side is that,

907
00:31:45,579 --> 00:31:46,720
is there a willingness

908
00:31:47,019 --> 00:31:48,994
to change? Is there a willingness kind of

909
00:31:48,994 --> 00:31:50,914
like you said, like, to be able to

910
00:31:50,914 --> 00:31:53,154
to to separate some behaviors out and go,

911
00:31:53,154 --> 00:31:55,075
you know what? There's some things I do

912
00:31:55,075 --> 00:31:57,075
I've never wanted to really be a part

913
00:31:57,075 --> 00:31:59,634
of me. I don't I don't necessarily say

914
00:31:59,634 --> 00:32:01,234
that this is the part I wanna go

915
00:32:01,234 --> 00:32:03,539
forward. And if we can agree on that

916
00:32:03,539 --> 00:32:05,779
and boundary that, right, and just say, like,

917
00:32:05,779 --> 00:32:08,179
hey. I like you, but the part that's

918
00:32:08,179 --> 00:32:09,240
out there,

919
00:32:09,619 --> 00:32:11,940
right, having a girlfriend on the side, that

920
00:32:11,940 --> 00:32:14,660
part we both have to agree, he's gone.

921
00:32:14,660 --> 00:32:16,884
Right? Like, he can't stay married to us

922
00:32:16,884 --> 00:32:18,404
anymore. Right? He can't stay a part of

923
00:32:18,404 --> 00:32:19,144
this relationship.

924
00:32:19,924 --> 00:32:21,224
If we agree on that,

925
00:32:21,525 --> 00:32:23,765
then it's really simple about, like, okay. What's

926
00:32:24,005 --> 00:32:25,845
how do we keep him out? Right? What

927
00:32:25,845 --> 00:32:27,065
keeps him from visiting?

928
00:32:27,605 --> 00:32:29,285
And that's gonna be as the guy, that's

929
00:32:29,285 --> 00:32:31,269
gonna be my responsibility. Right? It's not gonna

930
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:32,710
be my wife's. I'm not gonna put that

931
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:34,950
on hers. And what is incredible is I

932
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:37,029
mean, we've seen stories you can imagine in

933
00:32:37,029 --> 00:32:39,910
terms of level of infidelity and brokenness and

934
00:32:39,910 --> 00:32:41,430
things that you go, there is no way

935
00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:43,349
a couple comes back from that. And I

936
00:32:43,349 --> 00:32:45,769
have seen so many partners so forgiving.

937
00:32:46,285 --> 00:32:48,684
Right? So willing to go, you get your

938
00:32:48,684 --> 00:32:51,005
second chance. Right? You get the chance to

939
00:32:51,005 --> 00:32:51,904
make this right,

940
00:32:52,444 --> 00:32:54,125
but only when they can get to those

941
00:32:54,125 --> 00:32:55,964
shared values. I think only when they can

942
00:32:55,964 --> 00:32:57,664
get to that kind of core group. Mhmm.

943
00:32:57,724 --> 00:32:59,884
Mhmm. And and, you know, Joanna may hit

944
00:32:59,884 --> 00:33:01,325
something because I think this is one of

945
00:33:01,325 --> 00:33:01,825
the,

946
00:33:02,470 --> 00:33:04,230
you know, it sounds so great when you

947
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:06,069
say that. Like, it's like, oh, yeah. The

948
00:33:06,149 --> 00:33:07,450
but the truth is,

949
00:33:08,389 --> 00:33:10,069
you can hold the the these ladies are

950
00:33:10,069 --> 00:33:12,869
holding both. Right? It's like, yeah. We have

951
00:33:12,869 --> 00:33:14,630
this and, like, this is why we're together

952
00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:16,544
and then, but I mean, they they, you

953
00:33:16,544 --> 00:33:18,304
know, the way that this works, you can

954
00:33:18,304 --> 00:33:20,865
hold two beliefs and they can be opposing.

955
00:33:20,865 --> 00:33:22,944
Now rarely are they active at the same

956
00:33:22,944 --> 00:33:25,025
time. You might have a killer evening together

957
00:33:25,025 --> 00:33:27,345
and have this cool date night where that's

958
00:33:27,345 --> 00:33:30,630
not there, and then you she becomes triggered,

959
00:33:30,690 --> 00:33:32,769
and as they're going to bed, it's back.

960
00:33:32,769 --> 00:33:34,369
Right? So I think that's the thing that

961
00:33:34,369 --> 00:33:36,289
couples you understand, you know, and that was

962
00:33:36,289 --> 00:33:38,210
something for it's really tough for guys because

963
00:33:38,210 --> 00:33:39,730
they really wanna see this up into the

964
00:33:39,730 --> 00:33:41,590
right. I know. And,

965
00:33:42,369 --> 00:33:43,830
right, you know, but

966
00:33:44,265 --> 00:33:46,365
it you your wife can hold,

967
00:33:46,904 --> 00:33:48,825
man, we have so many, like, gosh, I'm

968
00:33:48,825 --> 00:33:50,345
so glad we share this together. It's so

969
00:33:50,345 --> 00:33:51,625
fun that we could do that. I would

970
00:33:51,625 --> 00:33:53,565
love to see where this goes long term

971
00:33:53,625 --> 00:33:55,464
and she can hold the same exact value

972
00:33:55,464 --> 00:33:56,205
that says

973
00:33:56,569 --> 00:33:58,730
he likes women who are younger and more

974
00:33:58,730 --> 00:34:01,369
fit than me. Mhmm. Right? I'm I'm, you

975
00:34:01,369 --> 00:34:02,650
know, I need to lose weight. I need,

976
00:34:02,650 --> 00:34:04,410
like and so I think guys, you understand,

977
00:34:04,410 --> 00:34:06,730
like, can you imagine holding those two and

978
00:34:06,730 --> 00:34:08,969
how ugly that one is and how beautiful

979
00:34:08,969 --> 00:34:10,650
this one is? And she can hold them

980
00:34:10,650 --> 00:34:12,664
at the same time. Like I said, rarely

981
00:34:12,664 --> 00:34:14,905
at the same exact time, but, I mean,

982
00:34:14,905 --> 00:34:17,065
you know, she could be thirty minutes from

983
00:34:17,065 --> 00:34:19,545
now. She could see something on Instagram of

984
00:34:19,545 --> 00:34:22,344
a woman who's very fit, and she could

985
00:34:22,344 --> 00:34:24,425
wonder, oh, I wonder if that's the type

986
00:34:24,425 --> 00:34:25,945
of women that he would act out with.

987
00:34:25,945 --> 00:34:26,789
Right? And so I think

988
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:28,250
there's this,

989
00:34:29,590 --> 00:34:31,050
there's this this battle

990
00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:31,829
that,

991
00:34:32,150 --> 00:34:35,110
you're holding to one ugly reality and one

992
00:34:35,110 --> 00:34:36,650
beautiful reality simultaneously.

993
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:38,650
And I think that's

994
00:34:39,444 --> 00:34:42,164
I think that's challenging, especially because and and

995
00:34:42,164 --> 00:34:43,684
I'd love to ask you, Joanna, on what

996
00:34:43,684 --> 00:34:45,605
you like, what do you what does a

997
00:34:45,605 --> 00:34:47,764
guy do? You can't tell her to change

998
00:34:47,764 --> 00:34:49,764
her reality because if you do, that is

999
00:34:49,764 --> 00:34:50,905
gonna, like, come on.

1000
00:34:51,444 --> 00:34:52,804
I don't know if you dipped your toe

1001
00:34:52,804 --> 00:34:54,690
in that arena, but that is I dipped

1002
00:34:54,690 --> 00:34:56,210
my toe there a few times and that's

1003
00:34:56,210 --> 00:34:58,070
not a that is a bad idea.

1004
00:34:58,849 --> 00:35:00,849
But in the end, it it it's not

1005
00:35:00,849 --> 00:35:03,409
not true. I mean, Joanna, they they they

1006
00:35:03,409 --> 00:35:06,550
can't hold some of these ugly realities about

1007
00:35:06,609 --> 00:35:07,429
the significance

1008
00:35:07,809 --> 00:35:09,269
of why this happened

1009
00:35:09,675 --> 00:35:11,434
and have a good marriage. You can't, like

1010
00:35:11,755 --> 00:35:14,574
Yeah. Those do need to be modified.

1011
00:35:15,515 --> 00:35:16,795
I I don't need think they need to

1012
00:35:16,795 --> 00:35:18,074
be forgotten, and I don't think they need

1013
00:35:18,074 --> 00:35:19,994
to be forgiven. I think you can go

1014
00:35:19,994 --> 00:35:21,914
forward without forgiving and,

1015
00:35:22,235 --> 00:35:24,179
forgotten. I don't think you necessarily need to

1016
00:35:24,260 --> 00:35:25,300
do those two things. So I don't think

1017
00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:26,819
I'm forcing you ladies to do either of

1018
00:35:26,819 --> 00:35:27,800
those. I'm not.

1019
00:35:28,179 --> 00:35:29,639
But I would say the significance

1020
00:35:30,099 --> 00:35:32,260
does need to get turned into a place

1021
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:34,260
that would allow a relationship to happen because

1022
00:35:34,260 --> 00:35:35,000
I do think

1023
00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:37,619
you if the significance of him doing those

1024
00:35:37,619 --> 00:35:38,599
things is

1025
00:35:39,315 --> 00:35:40,835
you're he did it because you're ugly. He

1026
00:35:40,835 --> 00:35:42,355
did it because he's bored with you. He

1027
00:35:42,355 --> 00:35:44,114
did it because he loves he likes younger

1028
00:35:44,114 --> 00:35:45,655
women and not you anymore.

1029
00:35:46,034 --> 00:35:48,034
He doesn't he doesn't respect women. I mean,

1030
00:35:48,034 --> 00:35:50,034
if that's the significance of why he did

1031
00:35:50,034 --> 00:35:51,474
this, I don't know if you're gonna be

1032
00:35:51,474 --> 00:35:52,994
able to have a thriving relationship. Can you

1033
00:35:52,994 --> 00:35:55,000
speak to that, Joanna? Because I don't, Matt

1034
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,760
and I, all we can do is be

1035
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,860
empathetic and and be in our recovery.

1036
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,920
But outside of that, Matt and I can't

1037
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,079
tell you what to think about us. And

1038
00:36:03,079 --> 00:36:05,239
I think if Matt and I try, your

1039
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:06,140
system says,

1040
00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:08,295
of course. Of course, you want me to

1041
00:36:08,295 --> 00:36:10,934
change that. Right? It's gonna go. We're gonna

1042
00:36:10,934 --> 00:36:11,594
be nice.

1043
00:36:12,135 --> 00:36:14,054
Yeah. This is a this is a I

1044
00:36:14,054 --> 00:36:15,655
would say this is a, Matt, like, other

1045
00:36:15,655 --> 00:36:17,494
couples who have decided to go the distance

1046
00:36:17,494 --> 00:36:19,974
with this and they're, you know, rounding year

1047
00:36:19,974 --> 00:36:21,255
year 1.5,

1048
00:36:21,255 --> 00:36:22,074
year two,

1049
00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:24,880
this does start to become the rate limiting

1050
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:25,860
step, which is

1051
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,800
I feel like we can't blossom because there's

1052
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,199
things that you think about guys like me

1053
00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:33,360
and it's and it's and it's really tough

1054
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,360
for us to flourish in the way that

1055
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:36,885
we need to. What are Matt and I

1056
00:36:36,885 --> 00:36:38,644
supposed to do? Because it really feels like

1057
00:36:38,644 --> 00:36:40,485
I I, you know, I felt really powerless

1058
00:36:40,485 --> 00:36:41,385
in that situation.

1059
00:36:41,765 --> 00:36:44,265
Totally. So I'll kinda speak to the partner's

1060
00:36:44,324 --> 00:36:46,585
experience first and then what you should do.

1061
00:36:47,204 --> 00:36:49,605
So so what basically, what's going on for

1062
00:36:49,605 --> 00:36:52,309
that betrayed spouse is we call it betrayal

1063
00:36:52,449 --> 00:36:54,789
trauma. That spouse has been traumatized,

1064
00:36:55,090 --> 00:36:57,829
and this is actually a trauma reaction

1065
00:36:58,610 --> 00:37:01,010
her brain is trying to do to protect

1066
00:37:01,010 --> 00:37:03,190
her from ever being hurt like that again.

1067
00:37:03,410 --> 00:37:04,930
And so right? So if you have a

1068
00:37:04,930 --> 00:37:07,190
traumatic experience, your brain learns,

1069
00:37:07,784 --> 00:37:10,684
avoid anything that looks, smells,

1070
00:37:11,144 --> 00:37:12,924
like, sounds remotely

1071
00:37:13,224 --> 00:37:15,625
similar to that ever again. Otherwise, right, because

1072
00:37:15,625 --> 00:37:17,864
you're gonna be hurt. And so this is

1073
00:37:18,184 --> 00:37:20,519
you referred to, right, these trauma triggers, and

1074
00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:22,300
it could be any random thing.

1075
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:23,820
Right? It's usually

1076
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,440
that partner does not plan it. Right? It

1077
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,300
comes out of usually the environment.

1078
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,640
Something triggers that pain, that trauma, and it

1079
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,539
actually sends her brain and her physical body

1080
00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:35,099
experience

1081
00:37:35,585 --> 00:37:37,904
right back to the first time she found

1082
00:37:37,904 --> 00:37:38,964
out about the betrayal.

1083
00:37:39,344 --> 00:37:41,505
And this is not something that they enjoy.

1084
00:37:41,505 --> 00:37:43,505
Right? Like, every partner I know would be

1085
00:37:43,505 --> 00:37:45,105
like, oh my gosh. If I could get

1086
00:37:45,105 --> 00:37:46,944
rid of this, I would, like, just tell

1087
00:37:46,944 --> 00:37:49,679
me what to do. Right? And so the

1088
00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:52,159
hard reality that both people need to know

1089
00:37:52,159 --> 00:37:54,400
is that trauma takes time to heal. Yeah.

1090
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,400
Right? This is not going to go away

1091
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,260
quickly. It's not going to go away overnight.

1092
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,800
Yes. There are things that can help it.

1093
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:01,300
Absolutely.

1094
00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:03,135
And so I would say, like, for that

1095
00:38:03,215 --> 00:38:05,635
partner getting plugged in with someone who understands

1096
00:38:06,255 --> 00:38:08,894
betrayal trauma, understands the way the brain works,

1097
00:38:08,894 --> 00:38:10,655
and what that partner can do to be

1098
00:38:10,655 --> 00:38:11,155
empowered

1099
00:38:11,534 --> 00:38:15,054
over those almost, like, automated reactions their body

1100
00:38:15,054 --> 00:38:18,859
is having that include emotions, include thoughts, include,

1101
00:38:19,079 --> 00:38:21,480
right, like, my actual physical reaction. Right? And

1102
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:21,980
so

1103
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:23,659
learning to understand that

1104
00:38:24,199 --> 00:38:27,400
is so important for that healing process. And

1105
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,300
as that trauma heals, exactly what you're saying,

1106
00:38:30,545 --> 00:38:32,644
I'm not going to have a stronger reaction.

1107
00:38:33,025 --> 00:38:35,025
I may still hold the memory. That memory

1108
00:38:35,025 --> 00:38:37,605
may bring me grief, but that's much different

1109
00:38:37,744 --> 00:38:38,644
than that, like,

1110
00:38:38,945 --> 00:38:41,105
wow. You disgust me. Get away from me.

1111
00:38:41,105 --> 00:38:42,864
Right? And the and, like and I mean,

1112
00:38:42,864 --> 00:38:45,025
literally, two minutes after we were just, like,

1113
00:38:45,025 --> 00:38:46,769
holding each other cuddling, I was feeling so

1114
00:38:46,769 --> 00:38:49,750
safe. Right? And so it can happen

1115
00:38:50,210 --> 00:38:53,010
that quickly, and it can be very chaotic

1116
00:38:53,010 --> 00:38:55,010
and very confusing for both people in the

1117
00:38:55,010 --> 00:38:57,989
relationship. And so just, like, normalizing that understanding

1118
00:38:58,050 --> 00:38:59,969
for that partner, understanding what they can do

1119
00:38:59,969 --> 00:39:02,025
to start to heal is so important. And

1120
00:39:02,025 --> 00:39:03,944
I think on the other side, what you

1121
00:39:03,944 --> 00:39:05,784
can do is you can educate yourself on

1122
00:39:05,784 --> 00:39:08,505
betrayal trauma. So you're not going there. What

1123
00:39:08,505 --> 00:39:10,184
the heck's going on with my wife? I

1124
00:39:10,184 --> 00:39:11,864
have no idea, and it's driving me crazy.

1125
00:39:11,864 --> 00:39:13,224
Right? Like, all of a sudden you could

1126
00:39:13,224 --> 00:39:16,019
go, oh, I understand. Her body's reacting exactly

1127
00:39:16,019 --> 00:39:17,700
as it should be right now, and I

1128
00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:19,619
know she's taking steps to heal that. We're

1129
00:39:19,619 --> 00:39:20,119
okay.

1130
00:39:20,420 --> 00:39:22,039
Right? And all of a sudden,

1131
00:39:22,420 --> 00:39:24,660
it's not about you because what happens is

1132
00:39:24,660 --> 00:39:27,315
the guy makes it about him. Right? Like,

1133
00:39:27,474 --> 00:39:29,234
why aren't you trusting me yet? I'm doing

1134
00:39:29,234 --> 00:39:30,994
all the things in recovery I'm supposed to

1135
00:39:30,994 --> 00:39:33,655
do. Right? I get defensive because I probably

1136
00:39:34,355 --> 00:39:36,534
placed my value in recovery

1137
00:39:36,914 --> 00:39:38,755
on how well my wife is doing or

1138
00:39:38,755 --> 00:39:41,109
how good our relationship is feeling. Right? Yep.

1139
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:42,230
Up and to the right. Up and to

1140
00:39:42,230 --> 00:39:44,070
the right. Why are why why why are

1141
00:39:44,070 --> 00:39:46,949
you why are you sabotaging our relationship? Why

1142
00:39:46,949 --> 00:39:48,869
don't you get over this? We're supposed to

1143
00:39:48,869 --> 00:39:50,070
be going up and to the right. And

1144
00:39:50,070 --> 00:39:53,030
I controlled my recovery so perfectly. I've done

1145
00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:55,275
all the things. Right? What for high achieving?

1146
00:39:55,275 --> 00:39:56,714
I think that and what can be really

1147
00:39:56,714 --> 00:39:58,815
tricky is I take all that success

1148
00:39:59,194 --> 00:40:00,954
over here and the identity I built up

1149
00:40:00,954 --> 00:40:02,234
over here and I go, well, now I'll

1150
00:40:02,234 --> 00:40:03,934
just use recovery instead.

1151
00:40:04,315 --> 00:40:06,014
I'll do recovery perfectly.

1152
00:40:06,554 --> 00:40:08,655
I'm the perfect model of good recovery.

1153
00:40:09,050 --> 00:40:10,650
Why is it my wife Have you worked

1154
00:40:10,650 --> 00:40:13,130
with these people before? I can tell, because,

1155
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:14,489
yeah, they do. It's like, next thing you

1156
00:40:14,489 --> 00:40:16,730
know, it's like, dude, how are you in

1157
00:40:16,730 --> 00:40:20,250
18 intensives? Like, this is insane. Right? Yeah.

1158
00:40:20,250 --> 00:40:21,974
Yep. I don't think you can get an

1159
00:40:22,055 --> 00:40:24,535
eighteen year chip before year eighteen. I don't

1160
00:40:24,535 --> 00:40:25,755
think that's how it works.

1161
00:40:26,215 --> 00:40:27,974
And one and one of the things we'll

1162
00:40:27,974 --> 00:40:29,655
talk about because this does happen for this

1163
00:40:29,655 --> 00:40:31,675
cup these couples especially is

1164
00:40:32,135 --> 00:40:34,135
I have to recognize on the on the

1165
00:40:34,135 --> 00:40:35,595
kind of husband's side,

1166
00:40:36,059 --> 00:40:38,219
even if I've cut out the really extreme

1167
00:40:38,219 --> 00:40:38,719
behaviors,

1168
00:40:39,180 --> 00:40:42,140
if I have adjacent behaviors and those can

1169
00:40:42,140 --> 00:40:44,960
be really easy to miss. Like, maybe it's

1170
00:40:45,019 --> 00:40:47,099
when we have a big project at work

1171
00:40:47,099 --> 00:40:48,460
or we have a merger that's coming up,

1172
00:40:48,460 --> 00:40:50,140
and I kinda start to ghost the family.

1173
00:40:50,140 --> 00:40:51,795
Right? I start to just show up less

1174
00:40:51,954 --> 00:40:54,295
emotionally present or just less present in general.

1175
00:40:54,594 --> 00:40:56,295
Even if I'm not acting out,

1176
00:40:56,755 --> 00:40:58,914
that my wife, the signal that she's gonna

1177
00:40:58,914 --> 00:41:00,994
get is you started the car. You're in

1178
00:41:00,994 --> 00:41:03,074
the driveway. You're on your way out. And

1179
00:41:03,074 --> 00:41:04,914
so a lot of guys struggle to see

1180
00:41:04,914 --> 00:41:06,989
like, hey. I put those boundaries in place

1181
00:41:06,989 --> 00:41:08,210
like you told me to,

1182
00:41:08,510 --> 00:41:10,349
but they don't recognize, like but, yeah, it

1183
00:41:10,349 --> 00:41:12,590
looks like you're leaning up against that boundary,

1184
00:41:12,590 --> 00:41:14,769
right, and testing the fence like the Velociraptors

1185
00:41:15,070 --> 00:41:17,150
and t you know, in in in Jurassic

1186
00:41:17,150 --> 00:41:19,815
Park. Right? And that's going to terrify your

1187
00:41:19,815 --> 00:41:22,054
partner. Right? That's gonna those are that's gonna

1188
00:41:22,054 --> 00:41:24,875
trigger her. And so being able to recognize,

1189
00:41:24,934 --> 00:41:27,034
like, okay. How do we check-in regularly?

1190
00:41:27,414 --> 00:41:29,335
How do we talk about where we are?

1191
00:41:29,335 --> 00:41:32,579
Because it's amazing what we found. Couples do

1192
00:41:32,579 --> 00:41:34,500
so much better in recovery than they sometimes

1193
00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:36,500
need to talk about. Yeah. They a lot

1194
00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:38,179
of times, couples have made a lot of

1195
00:41:38,179 --> 00:41:38,679
progress,

1196
00:41:38,980 --> 00:41:40,739
but they haven't slowed down to talk about

1197
00:41:40,739 --> 00:41:42,179
it. And not that kind of, like, get

1198
00:41:42,179 --> 00:41:44,099
over it progress, but, like, hey. We're in

1199
00:41:44,099 --> 00:41:45,835
a different place. Right? This isn't a year

1200
00:41:45,835 --> 00:41:46,735
and a half ago.

1201
00:41:47,114 --> 00:41:48,555
But if they if you can get them

1202
00:41:48,555 --> 00:41:50,235
and slow down and talk about it rather

1203
00:41:50,235 --> 00:41:51,994
than the kind of demands. Right? The, hey.

1204
00:41:51,994 --> 00:41:54,015
Check me out. Look how good I'm doing.

1205
00:41:54,075 --> 00:41:55,755
And so I think that willingness to kind

1206
00:41:55,755 --> 00:41:57,449
of look at that, be aware of that,

1207
00:41:57,449 --> 00:41:58,889
and I go, hey. I get it. I'm

1208
00:41:58,889 --> 00:42:00,250
doing some of the things I used to

1209
00:42:00,250 --> 00:42:02,570
do that preceded some of my acting out

1210
00:42:02,570 --> 00:42:04,570
behaviors, but I've, you know, I've made a

1211
00:42:04,570 --> 00:42:06,409
call to a guy or I'm doing my

1212
00:42:06,409 --> 00:42:08,570
work. Right? I know exactly what I need

1213
00:42:08,570 --> 00:42:10,190
to have in place to not go there.

1214
00:42:10,250 --> 00:42:12,744
Mhmm. That's gonna create a whole different environment

1215
00:42:12,744 --> 00:42:14,045
in them in the relationship.

1216
00:42:14,425 --> 00:42:16,585
Right? Versus if she's the one having to

1217
00:42:16,585 --> 00:42:19,304
go, hey. Have you called somebody? Right? Have

1218
00:42:19,304 --> 00:42:21,065
you been to a meeting? Are you doing

1219
00:42:21,065 --> 00:42:23,224
your work? That's when things tend to kinda

1220
00:42:23,224 --> 00:42:25,840
unravel. Mhmm. And it's a it's a, I'm

1221
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,300
I I Joanna, I appreciate you

1222
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,760
going back to basics because I think one

1223
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,840
thing I do, especially in this podcast, and

1224
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,140
I'm saying this for listeners.

1225
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,079
Guys, if you are newer to this and

1226
00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:38,925
you rely heavily on my podcast and the

1227
00:42:39,405 --> 00:42:41,405
experts that I bring in, you're probably missing

1228
00:42:41,405 --> 00:42:42,385
a lot of the basics.

1229
00:42:42,765 --> 00:42:45,644
I this podcast was not necessarily designed for

1230
00:42:45,644 --> 00:42:47,965
the basics in the crisis stage. I do

1231
00:42:47,965 --> 00:42:49,485
like to speak to that because I don't

1232
00:42:49,485 --> 00:42:51,005
think we we should ignore it, but at

1233
00:42:51,005 --> 00:42:53,164
the same time, if you're a listener listening

1234
00:42:53,164 --> 00:42:55,610
to this, what Joanna said, go over and

1235
00:42:55,610 --> 00:42:57,450
check I'm gonna have I'm gonna have them

1236
00:42:57,450 --> 00:42:59,130
tell you kind of all the different stuff

1237
00:42:59,130 --> 00:43:01,210
that they have. But Joe both Joanna and

1238
00:43:01,210 --> 00:43:02,590
Matt have a,

1239
00:43:03,210 --> 00:43:03,710
robust,

1240
00:43:05,050 --> 00:43:05,550
offerings.

1241
00:43:05,964 --> 00:43:07,724
A lot of them are free for you

1242
00:43:07,724 --> 00:43:09,484
guys to be able to partake in get

1243
00:43:09,484 --> 00:43:10,925
equipping yourself for some of us. Because I

1244
00:43:10,925 --> 00:43:12,364
think I think one thing Joanna said there

1245
00:43:12,364 --> 00:43:12,864
is

1246
00:43:13,164 --> 00:43:14,525
even for guys in advance so you guys

1247
00:43:14,525 --> 00:43:15,724
are listening to this and you're in advanced

1248
00:43:15,724 --> 00:43:18,045
stage recovery, I think we should go back

1249
00:43:18,045 --> 00:43:18,944
and reread

1250
00:43:19,324 --> 00:43:21,579
the the those some of those books. Right?

1251
00:43:21,579 --> 00:43:23,839
Reread you know, I just reread Michelle's,

1252
00:43:24,139 --> 00:43:26,699
betrayal bind again because it's like, alright. I

1253
00:43:26,699 --> 00:43:28,219
need I need to bring myself back in

1254
00:43:28,219 --> 00:43:30,380
this because I you know, it's like sometimes

1255
00:43:30,380 --> 00:43:32,380
we forget about that because my, you know,

1256
00:43:32,380 --> 00:43:34,014
my wife has had a recent set of

1257
00:43:34,014 --> 00:43:36,414
triggers now in our advanced layer because it's

1258
00:43:36,414 --> 00:43:38,094
hard for here to it's hard for her

1259
00:43:38,094 --> 00:43:40,014
to hear me speak on this because I'm

1260
00:43:40,014 --> 00:43:42,655
constantly speaking on stage about this. I'm constantly

1261
00:43:42,815 --> 00:43:46,034
and so she's hearing you know, she's reactivated

1262
00:43:46,335 --> 00:43:48,859
in a different way because she sees me

1263
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:49,500
shamelessly

1264
00:43:50,039 --> 00:43:52,119
speaking to a way that I did and

1265
00:43:52,119 --> 00:43:54,539
that messes with her body because it's like,

1266
00:43:54,679 --> 00:43:56,359
oh, she's kind of put off by, wow,

1267
00:43:56,359 --> 00:43:59,400
he's speaking so detached from this and I'm

1268
00:43:59,559 --> 00:44:01,639
and this is so hurtful. Right? So my

1269
00:44:01,639 --> 00:44:02,839
point is, I think you brought up a

1270
00:44:02,839 --> 00:44:04,864
good point, Joanna. Like, we we gotta be

1271
00:44:04,864 --> 00:44:06,085
careful getting too

1272
00:44:06,625 --> 00:44:09,105
detached from what we did and what it's

1273
00:44:09,105 --> 00:44:10,484
like for her because

1274
00:44:10,784 --> 00:44:13,605
part of this whole ecosystem is really understanding

1275
00:44:13,984 --> 00:44:15,744
there are two things that are being held

1276
00:44:15,744 --> 00:44:16,244
simultaneously.

1277
00:44:16,784 --> 00:44:17,364
A deep

1278
00:44:17,809 --> 00:44:19,570
immense amount of love for each other. And

1279
00:44:19,570 --> 00:44:21,670
then over here, I can't believe

1280
00:44:22,610 --> 00:44:25,090
that guys in general would do this. Like,

1281
00:44:25,090 --> 00:44:27,190
how gross is this stuff. Right? And,

1282
00:44:27,650 --> 00:44:29,250
I would and the last thing I would

1283
00:44:29,250 --> 00:44:30,525
say, then I'll have I'll have you guys

1284
00:44:30,525 --> 00:44:31,964
kinda fill in on because I know you

1285
00:44:31,964 --> 00:44:33,324
guys got some cool stuff that you're cooking

1286
00:44:33,324 --> 00:44:35,005
on. I want you to share that. The

1287
00:44:35,005 --> 00:44:36,284
thing that I would say that you said

1288
00:44:36,284 --> 00:44:37,905
I think was really great was

1289
00:44:38,924 --> 00:44:42,284
we have to we gotta understand that there

1290
00:44:42,284 --> 00:44:42,605
are

1291
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,920
you know, there's so many different states of

1292
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:46,920
reality that you two are gonna be in

1293
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,019
and and and and, Matt, you said this.

1294
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,400
We gotta be careful not to judge that

1295
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,340
that's a slip or a backslide

1296
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,059
or, you know, I think I think educating

1297
00:44:56,119 --> 00:44:58,680
about yourselves about all this is up into

1298
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,014
the right. I mean, that's just what it

1299
00:45:00,014 --> 00:45:01,855
is. It's just we're becoming better and better

1300
00:45:01,855 --> 00:45:02,755
and better equipped.

1301
00:45:03,855 --> 00:45:05,135
But, I mean, the triggers are gonna be

1302
00:45:05,135 --> 00:45:06,414
there. I mean, my my wife, you know,

1303
00:45:06,414 --> 00:45:08,255
we're into we're in some great recovery, but

1304
00:45:08,255 --> 00:45:10,574
my wife is still she still gets haunted

1305
00:45:10,574 --> 00:45:11,070
by

1306
00:45:11,469 --> 00:45:13,309
this. It's less about me now. It's more

1307
00:45:13,309 --> 00:45:15,309
about I hate that the world's this way.

1308
00:45:15,309 --> 00:45:16,989
Yeah. But, yeah, there's gonna be a lot

1309
00:45:16,989 --> 00:45:18,829
of layers to this as you go, and

1310
00:45:18,829 --> 00:45:20,590
in no way is that a backslide. But,

1311
00:45:20,989 --> 00:45:22,430
but I do wanna have you guys speak

1312
00:45:22,430 --> 00:45:22,930
to,

1313
00:45:23,275 --> 00:45:25,195
you guys have free resources. You guys have

1314
00:45:25,195 --> 00:45:27,675
some pretty amazing paid resources. I'm pretty sure

1315
00:45:27,675 --> 00:45:29,195
there is a is there a new, is

1316
00:45:29,195 --> 00:45:31,594
a book that is available or almost available?

1317
00:45:31,835 --> 00:45:32,554
Speak to,

1318
00:45:33,195 --> 00:45:35,114
speak to all of these things, and we

1319
00:45:35,114 --> 00:45:37,019
can include the link in the show notes.

1320
00:45:37,900 --> 00:45:39,340
The answer is yes, there is a book.

1321
00:45:39,340 --> 00:45:41,199
It's called building true intimacy.

1322
00:45:41,659 --> 00:45:44,380
It's really about taking what we learn working

1323
00:45:44,380 --> 00:45:46,860
with so many couples in recovery from day

1324
00:45:46,860 --> 00:45:48,860
one really to kinda when they were graduated,

1325
00:45:48,860 --> 00:45:49,980
we got to kick them out of the

1326
00:45:49,980 --> 00:45:50,264
nest

1327
00:45:51,065 --> 00:45:53,244
and seeing what it took for those couples

1328
00:45:53,625 --> 00:45:57,164
to go from absolute chaos Mhmm. To incredible

1329
00:45:57,304 --> 00:45:59,625
relationships. I mean, we were talking marriages that

1330
00:45:59,625 --> 00:46:02,105
truly everyone was jealous of because of how

1331
00:46:02,105 --> 00:46:04,019
close they were And the kind of things

1332
00:46:04,019 --> 00:46:05,940
you're like, if you knew the backstory, you'd

1333
00:46:05,940 --> 00:46:08,660
never believe it. And so we really wanted

1334
00:46:08,739 --> 00:46:10,500
because when we went through this, the kind

1335
00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:12,420
of idea was like, who knows how couples

1336
00:46:12,420 --> 00:46:14,660
get there, but good luck. And so we

1337
00:46:14,660 --> 00:46:17,239
really have always been passionate about creating resources

1338
00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:19,835
that help couples go from a to b

1339
00:46:19,835 --> 00:46:21,454
really, really efficiently. Yeah.

1340
00:46:22,074 --> 00:46:24,875
How wonderful was that podcast? The Rab Smiths,

1341
00:46:24,875 --> 00:46:26,234
for those of you who haven't heard them

1342
00:46:26,234 --> 00:46:28,074
speak before, it was just so much passion,

1343
00:46:28,074 --> 00:46:29,594
so much energy that they bring into this

1344
00:46:29,594 --> 00:46:31,674
field. There's so many couples that they're helping

1345
00:46:31,674 --> 00:46:33,835
through a very difficult process. And in the

1346
00:46:33,835 --> 00:46:36,369
show notes, you're gonna find three links. One

1347
00:46:36,369 --> 00:46:38,929
is for their free resources that they offer.

1348
00:46:38,929 --> 00:46:40,769
The second is for their book and then

1349
00:46:40,769 --> 00:46:42,869
the third is for their renewing us program.

1350
00:46:43,010 --> 00:46:45,329
If you are in a stuck place and

1351
00:46:45,329 --> 00:46:47,090
you're looking for help to kind of advance

1352
00:46:47,090 --> 00:46:47,829
your relationship,

1353
00:46:48,130 --> 00:46:50,210
check out the renewing us program. Link is

1354
00:46:50,210 --> 00:46:50,534
in the show

1355
00:46:52,295 --> 00:46:54,375
notes. Thanks for listening to this episode. If

1356
00:46:54,375 --> 00:46:55,974
you are a high achiever of the sex

1357
00:46:55,974 --> 00:46:57,815
addiction and you're looking for a recovery group

1358
00:46:57,815 --> 00:47:01,174
full of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1359
00:47:01,174 --> 00:47:03,974
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1360
00:47:03,974 --> 00:47:05,275
using four day retreats,

1361
00:47:05,710 --> 00:47:08,449
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1362
00:47:08,510 --> 00:47:10,670
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1363
00:47:10,670 --> 00:47:12,750
save your marriage, go to our website, fill

1364
00:47:12,750 --> 00:47:13,489
out our application.

1365
00:47:13,789 --> 00:47:16,269
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1366
00:47:16,269 --> 00:47:17,869
along to a friend in recovery who would

1367
00:47:17,869 --> 00:47:19,869
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1368
00:47:19,869 --> 00:47:20,749
get this information

1369
00:47:22,749 --> 00:47:23,069
out to as many high achievers as possible,

1370
00:47:23,069 --> 00:47:24,849
and I can't do it without your help.