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There's a difference between narcissistic personality disorder and

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someone who displays narcissistic traits. In this episode,

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I interview doctor Alexander Rebke. Her and I

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talk about the difference between a narcissist and

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somebody who displays the traits, but more importantly,

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what it is that you need to do

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to change them.

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You are listening to the sex addiction podcast

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for high achievers, business professionals, executives and entrepreneurs.

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This podcast is designed to apply sobriety and

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recovery principles specifically to the mindset of the

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high achiever. I'm your host, Roland Cochran, founder

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of The Successful Addict, a recovery group for

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high achieving men struggling with sex and porn

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addiction. For more information about joining our group

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or attending our next retreat, visit successfuladdict.com.

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And now enjoy the rest of the episode.

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Hello. Hello, everybody. I am here with Alexandra

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Repke. I should have asked how to say

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how do I say your last name? Repke.

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You got it. Perfect. Perfect. You know, I've

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been chatting back and forth, but I don't

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think I've ever known if I That was

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how I was saying your name. So, I'm

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here with Alexandra Repke. Alexandra,

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this is gonna be kind of a fun

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topic. I get a little fired up around

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this idea of narcissism

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and narcissistic

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traits

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because I

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two things. One, I feel like

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who really cares is it's to me like,

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okay, fine. We can call it whatever you

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wanna call it. To me, I find it

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causes more harm

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than good, in my opinion. I think anytime

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we pathologize something or label something, I think

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you increase

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the

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likelihood of it actually being harder to treat.

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And because again, now it's now once it's

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one thing, you kind of shut off any

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other options and focus too much on that

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one thing. Well, what if it's not that

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one thing that's causing it? Now we're way

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too zoomed in and we're not really getting

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to the point. And the other reason I

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don't like it is the word narcissist. I

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mean, who wants to be married to somebody

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with narcissism

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or narcissistic traits. Right? You know, especially somebody

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who's betrayed them. Why, right? Why would I

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be better off just washing my hands of

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this narcissist

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and starting over? And so I think the

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problem with this is it creates,

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I don't see the benefit to this, whether

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the traits are narcissistic or not. I I

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think introducing that word, I'm of the believer.

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I I haven't seen it help any couples

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or any marriages or any addicts get to

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a better place.

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Well, I do wanna acknowledge. I think pop

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culture has hijacked that word. Let's start there.

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So in the last five years, I feel

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like whenever I'm scrolling through any sort of

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feed, there's something about is your husband a

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narcissist

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or how to leave the narcissist? Or are

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you a victim of narcissistic abuse? It's constant

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in our culture to the point where I

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think that many of us are pointing to

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our respective spouses and saying is that narcissism?

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Are you gaslighting? That's a buzzword too, right?

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That's associated with narcissism.

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So pop culture has hijacked this word and

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now we're throwing it around really haphazardly.

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So the perspective I'm bringing to the table

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today is that narcissistic personality

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disorder is a real clinical disorder.

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And in my perspective, there is value in

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knowing if the person qualifies for a disorder

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versus is it traits is that informs treatment.

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The treatment for a disorder is radically different

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than if someone comes in with simply, if

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you will, personality issues.

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Mhmm. To me,

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I wanna just shout out some examples to

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just kinda get people's brains wrapping around what

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I'm talking about. So I grew up in

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a family where we just speak over each

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other. We talk over each other, we interrupt,

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we talk loud.

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So if that's kind of what we do

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as a family, right? Now what so if

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I feel like I have something I wanna

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say or

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I am now interrupting

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my partner or, you know, and again, so

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I think we look at some of these

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things now that we've been educated around.

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Oh, you're you're you're a narcissist because of

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blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, well,

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there could there could be a lot of

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reasons why someone would chronically interrupt someone else

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in mid sentence. I don't think that makes

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them have this grandiose view of their opinion

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or what they have to say. See what

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I'm saying? So I think, like, the challenge

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that I have seen with this is for

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a lot of the guys in the sex

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addiction field is we'll grab these things and

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we will say, say, oh, you do that

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because you're a narcissist. And again, I think

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it's a bit naive because to me, there's

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a lot of reasons why somebody would want

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to work out at the gym and be

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really into their diet and their fitness. It

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doesn't mean that they're

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into themselves from a physical appearance standpoint. They

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could just really enjoy

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a lot of aspects

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of the gym. Someone's interest in fashion,

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wristwatches,

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clothing accessories.

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Again, you know, being image conscious doesn't make

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you a narcissist. Oh, yes. And so I

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think the problem is with introducing this is

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all of a sudden you start I mean,

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come on. You guys have all heard the

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same thing of, you know, when you are

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buying a Jeep, all of a sudden, everybody

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has a white Jeep. Right? It's, you know,

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the brain just hunts for whatever it is

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that you've trained it to hunt for. And

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so if you are now worried that your

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husband is a narcissist because you're in the

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recovery world and that's a buzzword,

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you're gonna probably call a lot of his,

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you know, maybe they aren't great traits. But

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again, do they need to be narcissistic

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traits? Like, do we have to always if

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does everything have to be narcissism? That's so

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I I'll onto that. But that's kind of

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my thing is I I I see these

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we could call let's call them let's call

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them negative personality traits. I see these negative

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personality traits or these poor communication

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skills.

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I wanna say one more. They need to

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defend.

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Right. Just because I grew up feeling like

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no one ever listened to me, people didn't

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value my emotions,

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I was a second class citizen in my

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household because of our religious kind of upbringing.

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I felt that way, so I defend myself

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often.

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Does that make me a narcissist though? So

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I would love for you to speak. You

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see what I'm saying? So I think unfortunately

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is when we weaponize this, now we start

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seeing narcissistic

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traits.

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And to me, it's like, I don't know.

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Isn't there a lot of reasons why somebody

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could be acting that way? Yes. I appreciate

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that you're asking the why is because the

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behaviors you just described, that could be attributed

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to nurture, that could be attributed to

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upbringing, that could be attributed to survival tactic.

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And this is where I'll say it is

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my belief, and research

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backs this up, that you are born with

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narcissism.

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Meaning, it is not nurtured into you. You

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are born either missing a piece or not

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missing that piece. For narcissists, the piece that

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is missing is a quality

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That is per doctor

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Gregory Lester. But the ability to see somebody

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as an equal, that's the missing piece.

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Trauma, in my opinion, can turn the volume

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up, but trauma is not what is the

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origin of a personality disorder. So the behaviors

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you just described,

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it sounded like you're describing behaviors that were

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learned from the family. That's not narcissistic personality

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disorder. That's dysfunctional family dynamic that have a

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negative impact in the here and now. That's

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what that is. Right. And I think that's

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the thing is

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what we call, you know, my favorite example

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is

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the actual sexual behaviors themselves, particularly

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paying for sex, right? There's this kind of

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belief that if a guy has gotten to

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the point where he has paid for sex

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or there's a certain level of pornographic consumption

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that he must be a narcissist

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to be engaging in those behaviors,

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they're disgusting. I get it. And it's crazy

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sometimes to look at how much of it

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was done and that is very painful both

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for the

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cheater to look back on and for the

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partner.

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However,

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we also had to me, if everything that

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this person saw on television

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and then the locker room was just womenizing

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women, objectifying women, watching pornography when you feel

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like watching pornography whenever you want and not

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really feeling, you know, feeling entitled to me.

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If we look at the first twenty years

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of this individual's life and just how men

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were, you know, sleeping with women like trophies

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and, you know, if that was kind of

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their social circle.

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To me,

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they're just doing

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what they were doing the whole time. And

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then they took a little break when they

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got married, but then, you know, eventually the,

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you know, the desires came back and then

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they started doing the stuff again. Again, does

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that make them a narcissist when they just

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got used to

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using other women to make themselves

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feel better and enhance their self force and

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their status? Again, does that have to make

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them a narcissist?

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No.

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It doesn't. When I'm looking at diagnosing somebody

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with narcissism, first of all, it is a

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whole process.

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We're talking multiple standardized psychological testing batteries that

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are very sound, very valid, very reliable.

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We're talking clinical interviewing. I wanna talk to

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multiple collateral sources of information.

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Meaning, I wanna talk to your spouse. I

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wanna talk to your friends. I wanna know

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who you are because I only get to

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see this part of you. It's a whole

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process. And I'm looking beyond the diagnostic criteria

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that I mean, I've had I've had spouses

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Google the diagnostic criteria, send them to me,

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and say, look, they fit these.

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Slow down. We could all fit those at

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some points. I'm not looking at they occasionally

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fit those. I'm looking at it, is it

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a lifelong pattern that they fit these? And

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beyond that, do they lack the quality? Meaning,

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do they lack the ability to see the

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other person as an equal? And really important,

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are they enslaved to their image? Mhmm.

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You had beautifully mentioned a couple of minutes

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ago that sometimes there are people that are

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image conscious, but does that make them a

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narcissist?

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I would say no.

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It's are you enslaved

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to your image? That is when I get

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red flags of, oh, there could be clinical

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00:09:52,039 --> 00:09:53,179
narcissism here.

267
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,240
So let's do this on me. I do

268
00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,080
this every time I can on a podcast

269
00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:58,934
because I'm no I I don't know, recovery

270
00:09:59,714 --> 00:10:02,434
is this process of introspection and Yeah. You

271
00:10:02,434 --> 00:10:04,274
know, if you do have a problem, have

272
00:10:04,274 --> 00:10:05,554
fun with it. I mean, to me, I

273
00:10:05,554 --> 00:10:07,154
got no problem. You know, if I am

274
00:10:07,154 --> 00:10:08,995
a narcissist, I want to know so I

275
00:10:08,995 --> 00:10:10,294
can stop being

276
00:10:10,914 --> 00:10:13,919
one or affect people less, right? So let's

277
00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:15,379
use me for example because

278
00:10:15,759 --> 00:10:16,980
I, in many ways,

279
00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,220
Alexandra, do feel

280
00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,240
like I am enslaved to my image. And

281
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,720
so let's talk about that of, like, how

282
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,960
can you help me know for sure or

283
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:27,620
my wife

284
00:10:28,075 --> 00:10:30,014
know that I am not a narcissist? Because

285
00:10:30,154 --> 00:10:32,075
I will tell you, in the things that

286
00:10:32,075 --> 00:10:34,554
I have done to my my body, the

287
00:10:34,554 --> 00:10:36,414
things I've done to my bank account,

288
00:10:36,794 --> 00:10:39,615
I have done unthinkable things, including

289
00:10:40,075 --> 00:10:42,634
using women and men to make me feel

290
00:10:42,634 --> 00:10:43,350
better about

291
00:10:43,829 --> 00:10:46,389
myself, even if it means violating my morals

292
00:10:46,389 --> 00:10:49,589
and values, being dishonest, lying, manipulating those around

293
00:10:49,589 --> 00:10:52,470
me, exaggerating the truth. I've done all these

294
00:10:52,470 --> 00:10:54,089
things, and I

295
00:10:54,549 --> 00:10:56,569
still find massive urges

296
00:10:56,915 --> 00:10:58,835
to continue doing them. You know, now in

297
00:10:58,835 --> 00:11:01,495
recovery, obviously, I've made a commitment to stop

298
00:11:01,715 --> 00:11:02,215
because,

299
00:11:02,835 --> 00:11:04,115
I just don't wanna be the kind of

300
00:11:04,115 --> 00:11:06,355
guy who does those things. But I'd be

301
00:11:06,355 --> 00:11:08,754
lying to you if I didn't have every

302
00:11:08,754 --> 00:11:11,175
cell of my body saying, Roland,

303
00:11:11,899 --> 00:11:14,139
just lie. It'll be better to lie about

304
00:11:14,139 --> 00:11:15,899
this than it will be to tell the

305
00:11:15,899 --> 00:11:17,980
truth about this. Or, just just kind of

306
00:11:17,980 --> 00:11:20,139
exaggerate that number a little bit because if

307
00:11:20,139 --> 00:11:21,660
you don't, you know, they're not gonna take

308
00:11:21,660 --> 00:11:24,535
you serious enough. So again, in many ways,

309
00:11:24,535 --> 00:11:27,735
Alexander, I do feel enslaved to my image.

310
00:11:27,894 --> 00:11:30,055
I often wonder, do I really like golf

311
00:11:30,055 --> 00:11:32,134
or am I trying to like golf and

312
00:11:32,134 --> 00:11:33,894
get good at golf because rich people are

313
00:11:33,894 --> 00:11:36,154
good at golf? I'll drink Scotch,

314
00:11:36,570 --> 00:11:38,570
expensive scotch. Do you I don't even like

315
00:11:38,570 --> 00:11:40,730
it. Am I I wonder all the time,

316
00:11:40,730 --> 00:11:43,769
am I trying to force myself to know

317
00:11:43,769 --> 00:11:46,009
more about scotch just so that when the

318
00:11:46,009 --> 00:11:48,730
rich guy who likes nice scotch asks me

319
00:11:48,730 --> 00:11:51,230
a question, I can respond knowledgeably.

320
00:11:52,105 --> 00:11:54,264
Help me here, Alexandra. How do I know

321
00:11:54,264 --> 00:11:55,965
I'm not a narcissist when

322
00:11:56,424 --> 00:11:58,445
so much of my

323
00:11:58,985 --> 00:12:01,705
life is around making sure that no one

324
00:12:01,705 --> 00:12:03,705
says anything bad about me? Yeah. This is

325
00:12:03,705 --> 00:12:05,144
a great question. So one of the things

326
00:12:05,144 --> 00:12:07,470
I do with folks when I clinically interviewing

327
00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:09,629
them for narcissism is I tell them where

328
00:12:09,629 --> 00:12:12,429
the word narcissist comes from. Are you familiar

329
00:12:12,429 --> 00:12:14,509
with that story? Yes. I am. Yes. Yes.

330
00:12:14,509 --> 00:12:15,009
Yes.

331
00:12:15,629 --> 00:12:18,509
So for listeners to recap, like many wonderful

332
00:12:18,509 --> 00:12:20,290
stories, it comes from Greek mythology.

333
00:12:20,669 --> 00:12:23,945
Right? And the main character's name is Narcissus.

334
00:12:24,884 --> 00:12:25,945
He does something,

335
00:12:26,485 --> 00:12:29,045
God gets angry at him, and his curse,

336
00:12:29,045 --> 00:12:30,725
if you will, is that he falls in

337
00:12:30,725 --> 00:12:31,865
love with his image.

338
00:12:32,245 --> 00:12:34,965
And so there's a scene where he's going

339
00:12:34,965 --> 00:12:36,940
down to a body of water, we'll call

340
00:12:36,940 --> 00:12:39,179
it a stream. He glances in. He catches

341
00:12:39,179 --> 00:12:40,079
sight of himself,

342
00:12:40,860 --> 00:12:43,019
and he's in love. And in love to

343
00:12:43,019 --> 00:12:45,179
the point where he's not feeding himself, he's

344
00:12:45,179 --> 00:12:47,899
not getting rest, and he dies on the

345
00:12:47,899 --> 00:12:49,120
side of that stream.

346
00:12:49,735 --> 00:12:51,335
Now here's where I think we can miss

347
00:12:51,335 --> 00:12:53,355
the point of that myth.

348
00:12:53,735 --> 00:12:55,894
It's not that narcissist falls in love with

349
00:12:55,894 --> 00:12:56,394
himself.

350
00:12:56,774 --> 00:12:57,434
He doesn't.

351
00:12:57,894 --> 00:13:00,215
He falls in love with an image of

352
00:13:00,215 --> 00:13:03,115
himself. Those are two very different things.

353
00:13:03,929 --> 00:13:05,690
Let me give you a here and now

354
00:13:05,690 --> 00:13:06,190
example.

355
00:13:06,570 --> 00:13:08,009
Thinking about here and now, a lot of

356
00:13:08,009 --> 00:13:09,549
people take selfies these days,

357
00:13:09,929 --> 00:13:12,490
and it's the right angle, it's the right

358
00:13:12,490 --> 00:13:14,190
lighting, it's the right filter.

359
00:13:14,570 --> 00:13:15,309
And technically,

360
00:13:15,769 --> 00:13:17,690
they produce something that is an image of

361
00:13:17,690 --> 00:13:18,190
themselves,

362
00:13:18,649 --> 00:13:19,149
and

363
00:13:19,745 --> 00:13:21,284
it's not necessarily

364
00:13:21,904 --> 00:13:22,404
them.

365
00:13:22,865 --> 00:13:24,324
Right? There are modifications

366
00:13:24,945 --> 00:13:25,445
there.

367
00:13:26,065 --> 00:13:27,044
For a narcissist,

368
00:13:27,664 --> 00:13:31,824
the difference between that perfectly curated image and

369
00:13:31,824 --> 00:13:34,159
who they actually are is intolerable.

370
00:13:34,460 --> 00:13:34,960
Mhmm.

371
00:13:35,580 --> 00:13:37,039
Mhmm. Mhmm. It is intolerable.

372
00:13:37,980 --> 00:13:40,559
And when you point to the inconsistencies

373
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:42,159
between the two,

374
00:13:42,460 --> 00:13:43,279
they cannot

375
00:13:43,580 --> 00:13:46,379
emotionally tolerate it, because it does not fit

376
00:13:46,379 --> 00:13:48,154
in with the

377
00:13:48,855 --> 00:13:51,654
their life's work of curating this image. Mhmm.

378
00:13:51,654 --> 00:13:54,134
So I tell I tell that story and

379
00:13:54,134 --> 00:13:56,295
I ask my patient, how does that resonate

380
00:13:56,295 --> 00:13:56,955
with you?

381
00:13:57,335 --> 00:13:58,394
Does that sound

382
00:13:58,935 --> 00:13:59,675
like you?

383
00:14:00,490 --> 00:14:02,750
And from there, we keep having the conversation.

384
00:14:03,210 --> 00:14:05,210
Mhmm. I'd say, because I I would back

385
00:14:05,210 --> 00:14:05,950
that with,

386
00:14:06,410 --> 00:14:07,230
I invented

387
00:14:07,690 --> 00:14:10,170
a version and versions of me that I

388
00:14:10,170 --> 00:14:12,649
liked more than the one that, you know,

389
00:14:12,649 --> 00:14:15,129
my upbringing. They basically led me to believe

390
00:14:15,129 --> 00:14:17,574
that I was insignificant. They didn't like me

391
00:14:17,574 --> 00:14:20,475
the way I was. So I hated my

392
00:14:20,855 --> 00:14:21,355
authenticity

393
00:14:21,735 --> 00:14:23,894
because the story during those first ten years

394
00:14:23,894 --> 00:14:26,315
of life was that no one wanted

395
00:14:26,934 --> 00:14:28,615
me the way that I was. So I

396
00:14:28,615 --> 00:14:31,720
had to invent one that people wanted. And

397
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,960
so I did that. How is that different

398
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,059
than narcissism? Because as you're hearing this,

399
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,759
I'm starting to believe I'm a narcissist because

400
00:14:38,759 --> 00:14:39,740
I do. I

401
00:14:40,279 --> 00:14:42,440
I invented that version of me and I

402
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,651
try everything in my power to try to

403
00:14:45,651 --> 00:14:45,742
maintain that performance for them. So they don't

404
00:14:45,742 --> 00:14:46,940
find out that I actually hate my

405
00:14:52,894 --> 00:14:54,815
maybe things will happen to me again like

406
00:14:54,815 --> 00:14:56,414
they happened in those first years of my

407
00:14:56,414 --> 00:14:58,654
life, where no one wanted me. They weren't

408
00:14:58,654 --> 00:14:59,154
impressed.

409
00:14:59,470 --> 00:15:01,149
Not only was I not average, I was

410
00:15:01,149 --> 00:15:03,470
below average. I was a black sheep, if

411
00:15:03,470 --> 00:15:05,870
you will. And so, again, help me and

412
00:15:05,870 --> 00:15:06,850
the audience understand,

413
00:15:07,470 --> 00:15:09,629
am I a narcissist because I'm fighting so

414
00:15:09,629 --> 00:15:12,055
hard to make sure that I look perfect

415
00:15:12,055 --> 00:15:14,355
to everybody else? No. Not necessarily.

416
00:15:14,815 --> 00:15:16,575
Firstly, this is one piece of the pie

417
00:15:16,575 --> 00:15:18,014
I look at. Right? So one piece of

418
00:15:18,014 --> 00:15:19,855
the pie is, is there an enslavement to

419
00:15:19,855 --> 00:15:20,434
the image?

420
00:15:20,735 --> 00:15:21,634
If there is,

421
00:15:22,014 --> 00:15:24,495
I then put on my detective hat and

422
00:15:24,495 --> 00:15:26,254
try to figure out why. Is that from

423
00:15:26,254 --> 00:15:26,754
trauma?

424
00:15:27,209 --> 00:15:28,110
Is that survival?

425
00:15:28,649 --> 00:15:30,250
Was this the way you were born? Ever

426
00:15:30,250 --> 00:15:32,490
since you can remember, have you always been

427
00:15:32,490 --> 00:15:34,889
doing this pattern? It's one piece of the

428
00:15:34,889 --> 00:15:37,289
pie. It's a fly for me as a

429
00:15:37,289 --> 00:15:39,230
clinician, but it's not a determinant.

430
00:15:39,924 --> 00:15:41,445
Sure. No. No. That makes a ton of

431
00:15:41,445 --> 00:15:43,065
sense. So let's stay on that thread.

432
00:15:43,445 --> 00:15:44,585
So I

433
00:15:45,045 --> 00:15:46,965
I'm not of the belief. I have seen

434
00:15:46,965 --> 00:15:49,205
the same research that you have have seen

435
00:15:49,205 --> 00:15:52,024
that everyone is born a narcissist, that we

436
00:15:52,209 --> 00:15:54,769
do not trust the universe or people to

437
00:15:54,769 --> 00:15:57,169
get our needs met. All we think about

438
00:15:57,169 --> 00:15:59,570
is ourselves, our, you know, our needs, blah.

439
00:15:59,570 --> 00:16:02,070
And so I've heard the same thing that

440
00:16:02,450 --> 00:16:04,929
as we grow, we have all these let's

441
00:16:04,929 --> 00:16:06,929
let's just for sake of conversation, let's say

442
00:16:06,929 --> 00:16:09,394
10 areas of life. We have these 10

443
00:16:09,394 --> 00:16:11,794
areas of life. I want you to test

444
00:16:11,794 --> 00:16:14,274
my perception of this. I was of the

445
00:16:14,274 --> 00:16:16,754
understanding that we all are narcissistic in all

446
00:16:16,754 --> 00:16:19,475
10 areas of that at birth. And that

447
00:16:19,475 --> 00:16:21,575
as time goes on, we start to realize,

448
00:16:21,879 --> 00:16:23,959
oh, mom always does tuck me in. And

449
00:16:23,959 --> 00:16:26,199
when I scream at night, mom or dad

450
00:16:26,199 --> 00:16:27,959
comes in the room when I have a

451
00:16:27,959 --> 00:16:30,439
nightmare. And there's always breakfast on the table.

452
00:16:30,439 --> 00:16:32,279
There's always lunch on the table. My lunch

453
00:16:32,279 --> 00:16:34,360
box is always packed and it's always in

454
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,199
my backpack ready to go when I go

455
00:16:36,199 --> 00:16:38,054
to school. So what happens is in all

456
00:16:38,054 --> 00:16:40,615
these different areas of life is you start

457
00:16:40,615 --> 00:16:43,735
to understand that you're gonna be okay, that

458
00:16:43,735 --> 00:16:45,975
people give a shit, that the universe actually,

459
00:16:45,975 --> 00:16:47,495
when you just let it do its things,

460
00:16:47,495 --> 00:16:49,674
it actually kind of naturally

461
00:16:50,134 --> 00:16:52,519
just cares for everyone and everybody kind of

462
00:16:52,519 --> 00:16:53,340
has the opportunity

463
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:55,879
to kind of live their life. And so

464
00:16:55,879 --> 00:16:57,559
then, you kinda just back off of that

465
00:16:57,559 --> 00:16:58,620
and start to

466
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,639
so my understanding was that you could be

467
00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:04,305
well nurtured by your parents in six of

468
00:17:04,305 --> 00:17:06,785
those areas and not in the other four,

469
00:17:06,785 --> 00:17:08,805
and that you would look very narcissistic

470
00:17:09,825 --> 00:17:12,545
in those four areas because you don't trust

471
00:17:12,545 --> 00:17:13,765
anyone but yourself

472
00:17:14,224 --> 00:17:16,384
to get those needs met for you. Is

473
00:17:16,384 --> 00:17:18,865
that how double check my understanding there of

474
00:17:18,865 --> 00:17:19,410
how I've taken

475
00:17:20,049 --> 00:17:22,549
That that seems logical to me. I would

476
00:17:23,090 --> 00:17:24,769
let's say I'm taking inventory of what you

477
00:17:24,769 --> 00:17:26,210
said. I would add that we are all

478
00:17:26,210 --> 00:17:27,109
born egocentric.

479
00:17:27,410 --> 00:17:28,549
Yeah. Like, that's just

480
00:17:29,009 --> 00:17:31,090
I think I think most people can agree

481
00:17:31,090 --> 00:17:32,690
on that. That does not mean you are

482
00:17:32,690 --> 00:17:33,349
a narcissist.

483
00:17:34,474 --> 00:17:37,434
And narcissist, again, it is the deficiency of

484
00:17:37,434 --> 00:17:40,174
the ability to see other people as equals.

485
00:17:40,555 --> 00:17:42,875
Now I'm gonna be clear. I've had a

486
00:17:42,875 --> 00:17:45,134
couple of flavors, if you will, of narcissism

487
00:17:45,275 --> 00:17:47,609
I've experienced clinically throughout the years. It's not

488
00:17:47,609 --> 00:17:49,450
always somebody going in a one up position.

489
00:17:49,450 --> 00:17:51,210
Traditionally, when we think, oh, you don't see

490
00:17:51,210 --> 00:17:52,730
me as an equal, it's in this one

491
00:17:52,730 --> 00:17:53,390
up position.

492
00:17:53,930 --> 00:17:55,150
And I've seen narcissists

493
00:17:55,769 --> 00:17:57,390
flip between the two

494
00:17:57,690 --> 00:18:00,109
and not be able, even for a moment,

495
00:18:00,484 --> 00:18:03,365
to be here to feel equal partnership with

496
00:18:03,365 --> 00:18:04,265
another human

497
00:18:04,724 --> 00:18:06,244
being. That's what we're looking at for this.

498
00:18:06,244 --> 00:18:08,005
So so so again, let's talk about that

499
00:18:08,005 --> 00:18:11,945
because again, surprise surprise, I identify with that.

500
00:18:12,005 --> 00:18:13,465
I am very uncomfortable.

501
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,080
I don't know if intolerable is the right

502
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:17,539
word, but I

503
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,119
would way rather be a victim or better.

504
00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,680
I just being one more, I I don't

505
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,400
I don't like it. Now, my therapists have

506
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,799
told me that it's not narcissism, that I

507
00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:29,539
have actually

508
00:18:30,345 --> 00:18:32,285
developed a pathological

509
00:18:33,544 --> 00:18:36,025
I don't like normal because the way my

510
00:18:36,025 --> 00:18:36,525
life

511
00:18:36,984 --> 00:18:39,464
showed me of who normal is and how

512
00:18:39,464 --> 00:18:40,845
normal people are treated.

513
00:18:41,464 --> 00:18:42,605
I don't like

514
00:18:43,009 --> 00:18:43,509
how

515
00:18:44,049 --> 00:18:46,789
average and normal is treated. So I've weaponized

516
00:18:48,289 --> 00:18:51,970
being not unique. And so my friends told

517
00:18:51,970 --> 00:18:53,809
me that I'm not Yeah, that it's not

518
00:18:53,809 --> 00:18:54,309
narcissism,

519
00:18:55,089 --> 00:18:55,829
that I

520
00:18:57,044 --> 00:18:57,544
liked

521
00:18:57,845 --> 00:19:00,325
being not one more and I liked making

522
00:19:00,325 --> 00:19:02,884
sure that everybody knew, you know, I I

523
00:19:02,884 --> 00:19:05,704
was forcing my uniqueness and important self importance

524
00:19:05,764 --> 00:19:06,424
on everyone.

525
00:19:06,724 --> 00:19:08,825
But again, my point of this conversation is,

526
00:19:09,009 --> 00:19:10,529
gosh, as it gets out of my mouth,

527
00:19:10,529 --> 00:19:12,710
doesn't that sound so narcissistic.

528
00:19:13,329 --> 00:19:14,869
Right? This over narcissistic.

529
00:19:15,490 --> 00:19:17,569
Being being you see what I'm saying? So

530
00:19:17,650 --> 00:19:18,549
But not narcissism

531
00:19:19,490 --> 00:19:21,809
necessarily. Right? Because you just you just explained

532
00:19:21,809 --> 00:19:22,470
an adaptation.

533
00:19:23,384 --> 00:19:25,785
You did not explain that was your base

534
00:19:25,785 --> 00:19:28,505
forever. It was adapting to things going on

535
00:19:28,505 --> 00:19:31,565
around you. Another key signal for me so

536
00:19:31,625 --> 00:19:33,945
lots of pieces I'm considering before I make

537
00:19:33,945 --> 00:19:34,684
this diagnosis.

538
00:19:35,065 --> 00:19:37,920
I'm considering, has this person received trauma work

539
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,000
and has it worked or not? Mhmm. Is

540
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,460
for a true narcissist,

541
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,880
trauma work is actually going to inflame the

542
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:45,380
narcissism

543
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,400
as opposed to help it get better. For

544
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,039
saying that. Mhmm. That's And that's When I've

545
00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:52,180
done, you know, EMDR,

546
00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:53,380
brain spotting,

547
00:19:53,875 --> 00:19:55,875
any of my intensives where I'm in a

548
00:19:55,875 --> 00:19:57,255
room full of my brothers,

549
00:19:57,794 --> 00:19:58,855
and I have to

550
00:19:59,315 --> 00:20:02,115
admit a lot of the things that I

551
00:20:02,115 --> 00:20:04,355
feel and the thing you know, it is

552
00:20:04,355 --> 00:20:06,534
very cathartic, you know, a lot of tears.

553
00:20:06,674 --> 00:20:08,855
I'm very sad that it happened to me.

554
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,519
I'm very angry that I adapted the way

555
00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:14,880
that I adapted because the adaptations are causing

556
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,480
me a lot of pain and they've caused

557
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,079
some other pain. So there's there's a lot

558
00:20:18,079 --> 00:20:18,579
of

559
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,599
regret, remorse, even some shame in there of

560
00:20:21,599 --> 00:20:24,505
it. So what you're saying is because I

561
00:20:24,565 --> 00:20:27,704
want to and can and do these introspective

562
00:20:27,924 --> 00:20:28,424
exercises

563
00:20:28,805 --> 00:20:31,144
where I feel so bad for the little

564
00:20:31,204 --> 00:20:33,464
version of me, and I feel very

565
00:20:33,845 --> 00:20:35,444
bad at the middle version of me, and

566
00:20:35,444 --> 00:20:37,444
I'm very sad for the end version of

567
00:20:37,444 --> 00:20:39,819
me because I was let I was fed

568
00:20:39,819 --> 00:20:41,359
a bunch of untruths,

569
00:20:41,819 --> 00:20:43,900
and I adapted my life based off of

570
00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:44,640
an untrue

571
00:20:45,740 --> 00:20:47,660
world that was presented to me. And now,

572
00:20:47,660 --> 00:20:50,859
I turn myself into this person that is

573
00:20:50,859 --> 00:20:51,359
just

574
00:20:51,694 --> 00:20:54,255
very dysfunctional in a lot of ways. And

575
00:20:54,255 --> 00:20:57,134
so my interest in that, my humbleness there

576
00:20:57,134 --> 00:20:57,875
and my

577
00:20:58,335 --> 00:21:00,035
desire for help understanding,

578
00:21:00,734 --> 00:21:03,474
that would make me not a narcissist.

579
00:21:03,859 --> 00:21:05,700
He'll clear that up. Yeah. What I would

580
00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:08,920
say is if trauma is the source,

581
00:21:09,299 --> 00:21:12,019
then trauma treatment will work. If trauma is

582
00:21:12,019 --> 00:21:14,420
not the source and there's a personality disorder,

583
00:21:14,420 --> 00:21:16,180
trauma treatment is not going to you. There

584
00:21:16,180 --> 00:21:18,244
we go. That that's what I'm trying to

585
00:21:18,244 --> 00:21:19,444
say. So as I'm looking

586
00:21:20,085 --> 00:21:22,005
because often folks come to me, I'm gonna

587
00:21:22,005 --> 00:21:24,085
be person that's last on the list to

588
00:21:24,085 --> 00:21:25,525
see if you will. They come to me

589
00:21:25,525 --> 00:21:27,684
when they try everything else. Mhmm. Those are

590
00:21:27,684 --> 00:21:29,690
the folks that I really like helping. Like

591
00:21:29,690 --> 00:21:31,769
what is going on that is preventing you

592
00:21:31,769 --> 00:21:34,009
from moving forward to recovery? You've been to

593
00:21:34,009 --> 00:21:36,670
these exceptional therapists, you've done all the things,

594
00:21:37,049 --> 00:21:39,450
where is the stall out? And if I'm

595
00:21:39,450 --> 00:21:41,309
considering a personality disorder,

596
00:21:41,714 --> 00:21:43,394
one of my questions is gonna be how

597
00:21:43,394 --> 00:21:45,075
much trauma work have you had and how

598
00:21:45,075 --> 00:21:46,134
much has it helped.

599
00:21:46,755 --> 00:21:48,835
And if somebody says, oh, I've had someone,

600
00:21:48,835 --> 00:21:50,994
it's helped a little. It's not gonna immediately

601
00:21:50,994 --> 00:21:53,315
disqualify narcissism from my mind, but it's a

602
00:21:53,315 --> 00:21:55,734
piece of the puzzle that is really valuable

603
00:21:55,794 --> 00:21:58,289
to me as I'm trying to figure out,

604
00:21:58,309 --> 00:21:59,610
is this clinical narcissism,

605
00:22:00,070 --> 00:22:03,049
or are these narcissistic tendencies that are adaptations

606
00:22:03,269 --> 00:22:06,630
from trauma? Yes. Yes. Different things because it's

607
00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:09,934
two different treatments. Yes. I'm a very I'm

608
00:22:09,934 --> 00:22:12,894
passionate about this and I'm trying to temper

609
00:22:12,894 --> 00:22:13,634
my passion.

610
00:22:14,095 --> 00:22:16,654
But one of the main reasons why I

611
00:22:16,654 --> 00:22:19,634
felt like it was needed, not even optional,

612
00:22:19,855 --> 00:22:22,115
needed for me to develop a

613
00:22:22,494 --> 00:22:24,275
recovery group for

614
00:22:25,009 --> 00:22:27,589
successful men, high achieving men is,

615
00:22:28,210 --> 00:22:30,769
I genuinely believe this and I'm gonna get

616
00:22:30,849 --> 00:22:32,129
Oh my gosh. I can already see I'm

617
00:22:32,129 --> 00:22:34,129
gonna get some angry emails from what I'm

618
00:22:34,129 --> 00:22:36,470
about to say. I feel like they're being

619
00:22:36,690 --> 00:22:37,190
unnecessarily

620
00:22:37,649 --> 00:22:38,149
bullied,

621
00:22:38,529 --> 00:22:39,029
labeled,

622
00:22:39,775 --> 00:22:43,214
judged. Successful men in this country, I'm gonna

623
00:22:43,214 --> 00:22:44,595
say just this country, culturally,

624
00:22:45,535 --> 00:22:48,654
successful men are, I believe the things that

625
00:22:48,654 --> 00:22:51,134
are said about them is wildly inappropriate. And

626
00:22:51,134 --> 00:22:53,634
I can't believe that the psychological community is

627
00:22:53,855 --> 00:22:56,539
letting it happen. You know, just because, you

628
00:22:56,539 --> 00:22:57,440
know, to me,

629
00:22:57,900 --> 00:23:00,220
I don't see a bunch of narcissists and

630
00:23:00,220 --> 00:23:01,200
selfish individuals.

631
00:23:01,580 --> 00:23:03,119
My groups are full of,

632
00:23:03,740 --> 00:23:05,580
a lot of these guys give back big

633
00:23:05,580 --> 00:23:08,880
portions of their money to causes. They donate

634
00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:11,525
time. Being a killer husband and father is

635
00:23:11,525 --> 00:23:13,144
of utmost importance to them.

636
00:23:13,525 --> 00:23:14,345
They've donated

637
00:23:14,805 --> 00:23:16,644
time and money to the city for different

638
00:23:16,805 --> 00:23:18,644
I mean, these are, they serve on board,

639
00:23:18,644 --> 00:23:21,684
nonprofit boards for free because they know how

640
00:23:21,684 --> 00:23:23,365
to make money better than the people at

641
00:23:23,365 --> 00:23:23,944
the nonprofit.

642
00:23:24,244 --> 00:23:27,029
These are good human beings who have strong

643
00:23:27,029 --> 00:23:28,169
morals and values.

644
00:23:28,869 --> 00:23:31,109
And my heart aches for how they're treated

645
00:23:31,109 --> 00:23:31,609
because

646
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:32,970
it's very

647
00:23:33,589 --> 00:23:35,109
I don't know what the right word is,

648
00:23:35,109 --> 00:23:37,769
but we're so sensitive about subcultures.

649
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:41,690
And that society has influenced them to

650
00:23:42,845 --> 00:23:44,045
be a lot of the way that they

651
00:23:44,045 --> 00:23:46,305
are, and we're sensitive to not judging,

652
00:23:46,845 --> 00:23:48,125
you know, a lot a lot of these

653
00:23:48,125 --> 00:23:49,884
people, the way they're acting is because of

654
00:23:49,884 --> 00:23:52,045
how they've been treated. Women have been treated

655
00:23:52,045 --> 00:23:54,144
a certain way in this country. And so

656
00:23:54,285 --> 00:23:54,945
we see

657
00:23:55,570 --> 00:23:57,009
a lot of the way they act is

658
00:23:57,009 --> 00:23:58,369
a result of that. So we're trying to

659
00:23:58,369 --> 00:24:01,009
be very sensitive of what culture has done

660
00:24:01,009 --> 00:24:03,250
to them and not judging by what we're

661
00:24:03,250 --> 00:24:05,430
seeing. Right? You know, a lot of people

662
00:24:05,650 --> 00:24:07,570
in Asian cultures, depending if they grew up

663
00:24:07,570 --> 00:24:09,410
in one of the more crowded areas, a

664
00:24:09,410 --> 00:24:11,775
lot of the norm there is there isn't

665
00:24:11,775 --> 00:24:13,535
a way to have a line, you just

666
00:24:13,535 --> 00:24:16,174
need to do everything you can to get

667
00:24:16,174 --> 00:24:18,095
into the train. So that's just the way

668
00:24:18,095 --> 00:24:19,615
they do it. And then they come over

669
00:24:19,615 --> 00:24:22,174
here and we call them rude for pushing

670
00:24:22,174 --> 00:24:23,455
and fighting their way into the train. But

671
00:24:23,455 --> 00:24:25,215
again, that's how you get on the train

672
00:24:25,215 --> 00:24:27,154
there. So it's not rude, it's just

673
00:24:27,509 --> 00:24:29,589
that's the norm. So my point of all

674
00:24:29,589 --> 00:24:30,890
of these examples is

675
00:24:31,430 --> 00:24:34,890
I find successful men, especially successful white men,

676
00:24:35,269 --> 00:24:37,930
get screwed. They're narcissists. They're disconnected.

677
00:24:38,549 --> 00:24:39,289
They're womanizers.

678
00:24:39,670 --> 00:24:41,690
They're obsessed with money and grandiose.

679
00:24:42,150 --> 00:24:42,650
And,

680
00:24:43,045 --> 00:24:44,805
you know, God forbid you buy a Rolex

681
00:24:44,805 --> 00:24:46,884
now, you're really a narcissist because you spent

682
00:24:46,884 --> 00:24:48,744
40,000 on a watt. You know, to me,

683
00:24:49,045 --> 00:24:50,805
I'm very passionate about this because

684
00:24:51,125 --> 00:24:53,045
Go ahead. I don't know why these men

685
00:24:53,045 --> 00:24:54,585
are being blamed for this.

686
00:24:55,059 --> 00:24:56,980
You know why they're doing all this? You

687
00:24:56,980 --> 00:24:59,059
know why they're making money? You know why

688
00:24:59,059 --> 00:24:59,559
they're

689
00:24:59,940 --> 00:25:01,779
investing in the stock market? You know, you

690
00:25:01,779 --> 00:25:04,019
guys told them to for the first twenty

691
00:25:04,019 --> 00:25:05,320
five years of their life.

692
00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:08,339
We told them to objectify women and get

693
00:25:08,339 --> 00:25:10,224
the hottest women they can. We told, like,

694
00:25:10,224 --> 00:25:12,304
you know, that's what's on TV. James Bond's

695
00:25:12,304 --> 00:25:14,304
not sleeping with ugly women and he's certainly

696
00:25:14,304 --> 00:25:16,224
not marrying any of them. He's sleeping with

697
00:25:16,224 --> 00:25:18,304
three to four women per episode and marrying

698
00:25:18,304 --> 00:25:20,065
none of them. And we all worship the

699
00:25:20,065 --> 00:25:22,544
guy. He drives Matt Martin, he's put together,

700
00:25:22,544 --> 00:25:24,565
he's got a six pack, he's suave.

701
00:25:25,250 --> 00:25:27,650
And then we beat these guys up for

702
00:25:27,650 --> 00:25:30,289
doing anything and everything they can to achieve

703
00:25:30,289 --> 00:25:32,690
the thing that we program them to achieve.

704
00:25:32,690 --> 00:25:35,250
I'm sorry. I to me, there's a lot

705
00:25:35,250 --> 00:25:37,090
of other people to blame than the little

706
00:25:37,090 --> 00:25:39,555
boy who latched on to all of the

707
00:25:39,715 --> 00:25:42,355
pressures that we literally told him. Go get

708
00:25:42,355 --> 00:25:44,835
rich. This is what an impressive guy is.

709
00:25:44,835 --> 00:25:46,994
Right. And then they did it and then

710
00:25:46,994 --> 00:25:49,075
now we call them names. And so to

711
00:25:49,075 --> 00:25:51,015
me, I'm very sensitive to this because

712
00:25:51,555 --> 00:25:53,090
they told me to take care of myself

713
00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:55,910
physically and now I'm a self absorbed narcissist.

714
00:25:55,970 --> 00:25:57,910
They told me to get wealthy

715
00:25:58,289 --> 00:26:00,850
and a plan for my future and create

716
00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:03,509
passive income. Now I'm a grandiose disconnected,

717
00:26:03,809 --> 00:26:05,570
you know, it's like every time I do

718
00:26:05,570 --> 00:26:08,335
what they say, now they call me a

719
00:26:08,335 --> 00:26:10,414
name that's usually related to some sort of,

720
00:26:10,414 --> 00:26:11,154
like, personality

721
00:26:11,615 --> 00:26:12,115
flaw.

722
00:26:12,414 --> 00:26:14,595
Gosh. I just I feel like that's incredibly

723
00:26:15,535 --> 00:26:16,974
unfair, and we don't do that to any

724
00:26:16,974 --> 00:26:18,974
other population. And I think just because these

725
00:26:18,974 --> 00:26:20,414
guys have money, we feel like we can

726
00:26:20,414 --> 00:26:22,140
do it to them. And it just doesn't

727
00:26:22,140 --> 00:26:24,380
sit right with me. We don't need anybody

728
00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:25,980
else, but we do it to these guys.

729
00:26:25,980 --> 00:26:28,220
And I just I don't know. It's it's

730
00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:30,859
weaponizing a clinical term at the cost of

731
00:26:30,859 --> 00:26:31,359
empathy.

732
00:26:31,740 --> 00:26:34,619
Yeah. Correct. Yeah. And the wild thing about

733
00:26:34,619 --> 00:26:36,825
this for me so I I agree with

734
00:26:36,825 --> 00:26:39,404
you. Majority if we're looking at percentages,

735
00:26:39,944 --> 00:26:42,505
majority of your listeners, majority of population is

736
00:26:42,505 --> 00:26:44,664
not gonna have a narcissistic personality disorder, period.

737
00:26:44,664 --> 00:26:46,424
Like, that's the way the numbers work here.

738
00:26:46,424 --> 00:26:47,404
Yeah. And

739
00:26:47,944 --> 00:26:50,830
ironically, if somebody's calling someone a narcissist, what

740
00:26:50,830 --> 00:26:52,350
they're saying is, I'm mad at you for

741
00:26:52,350 --> 00:26:54,049
not being able to humanize me.

742
00:26:54,430 --> 00:26:56,210
And ironically, they are dehumanizing

743
00:26:56,910 --> 00:26:58,670
the narcissist in a way in which they

744
00:26:58,670 --> 00:27:00,369
don't hold up the people for them.

745
00:27:01,150 --> 00:27:03,224
There's a lot of ironies running around this.

746
00:27:03,224 --> 00:27:05,785
Right? Isn't that why I'm glad you brought

747
00:27:05,785 --> 00:27:07,785
that up though, because look at what that

748
00:27:07,785 --> 00:27:09,724
does. If he is a narcissist,

749
00:27:10,744 --> 00:27:13,545
that is so convenient. Right? It's now you

750
00:27:13,545 --> 00:27:15,244
can leave him because he has a personality.

751
00:27:15,384 --> 00:27:17,049
You know, now he has an excuse as

752
00:27:17,049 --> 00:27:19,450
to why he can never empathize with you.

753
00:27:19,450 --> 00:27:21,769
Right? It's a to me, the challenge with

754
00:27:21,769 --> 00:27:24,590
that story is it cleans you

755
00:27:25,049 --> 00:27:25,549
of

756
00:27:26,170 --> 00:27:26,670
anything

757
00:27:27,210 --> 00:27:29,690
really because you're married to a narcissist. So

758
00:27:29,690 --> 00:27:31,875
now really, you don't have to Right. Yeah.

759
00:27:31,875 --> 00:27:33,133
You know, you don't have to. And that's

760
00:27:33,133 --> 00:27:34,704
and that's what pop culture would say, by

761
00:27:34,704 --> 00:27:36,275
the way. I'm gonna be really clear as

762
00:27:36,275 --> 00:27:39,315
a clinician. I hold so much hope for

763
00:27:39,315 --> 00:27:41,875
my patients that do have this disorder. I

764
00:27:41,875 --> 00:27:42,934
have seen transformation.

765
00:27:43,394 --> 00:27:45,394
It is, again, a very different type of

766
00:27:45,394 --> 00:27:47,690
treatment than you will get if you're doing

767
00:27:48,069 --> 00:27:50,549
therapy. This is not your regular sit on

768
00:27:50,549 --> 00:27:52,549
the couch, talk about your feelings. This is

769
00:27:52,549 --> 00:27:55,190
constant challenging happening in the moment, in the

770
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:57,990
here and now. I believe there's treatment and

771
00:27:57,990 --> 00:28:00,069
there's I'm gonna go ahead and say, I

772
00:28:00,069 --> 00:28:01,904
think narcissism is curable.

773
00:28:02,244 --> 00:28:02,744
Mhmm.

774
00:28:03,085 --> 00:28:04,065
Mhmm. If the person

775
00:28:04,365 --> 00:28:04,944
is invested

776
00:28:05,244 --> 00:28:05,744
and

777
00:28:06,125 --> 00:28:08,525
responds well to treatment, I think it's curable.

778
00:28:08,525 --> 00:28:10,305
So what I like my spouses

779
00:28:10,765 --> 00:28:13,105
to know is this is what is.

780
00:28:13,404 --> 00:28:14,944
This is the treatment plan,

781
00:28:15,404 --> 00:28:16,625
and there is hope.

782
00:28:17,039 --> 00:28:18,799
You get to choose though if you want

783
00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:20,799
to say that is your choice, but know

784
00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:23,279
that clinically speaking, narcissism is not the death

785
00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:25,000
sentence of pop psychology as we head out

786
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,200
to be. And well, and isn't what you

787
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,279
just said all of us? I mean, isn't

788
00:28:29,279 --> 00:28:30,259
being a responsible,

789
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:32,500
healthy human being

790
00:28:33,255 --> 00:28:34,234
educating yourselves

791
00:28:34,615 --> 00:28:35,115
around

792
00:28:36,695 --> 00:28:38,394
the problematic and false

793
00:28:38,695 --> 00:28:41,734
beliefs and self concepts and worldviews that you

794
00:28:41,734 --> 00:28:45,275
were taught and then protecting yourself and others

795
00:28:45,919 --> 00:28:48,179
from some of those deep ingrained

796
00:28:48,799 --> 00:28:51,759
habits that were misinformed. I mean, isn't that

797
00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:53,299
called why everyone

798
00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:55,759
go sees therapists? Isn't that why we all

799
00:28:55,759 --> 00:28:58,079
read self improvement books? As we understand that

800
00:28:58,079 --> 00:28:59,519
there's a lot of stuff that happened in

801
00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:01,884
those first twenty years of life that have

802
00:29:01,884 --> 00:29:04,684
led us to believe some inaccurate things which

803
00:29:04,684 --> 00:29:05,505
has led

804
00:29:06,045 --> 00:29:07,825
to poor communication strategies,

805
00:29:08,285 --> 00:29:12,125
not connecting enough, connecting too much, oversharing, relying

806
00:29:12,125 --> 00:29:13,724
too much on others, being codependent. I mean,

807
00:29:13,724 --> 00:29:15,670
isn't what you just said whether, you know,

808
00:29:15,670 --> 00:29:17,369
and again, that's why I think pathologizing

809
00:29:17,829 --> 00:29:20,630
and labeling and calling something something is unhelpful

810
00:29:20,630 --> 00:29:22,789
is, to me, what's what's the point? Isn't

811
00:29:22,789 --> 00:29:24,329
the end result still

812
00:29:24,869 --> 00:29:26,809
getting the client to police

813
00:29:27,190 --> 00:29:29,625
their belief system to make sure that it's

814
00:29:29,704 --> 00:29:31,384
actually as accurate as they think and not

815
00:29:31,384 --> 00:29:33,884
harming themselves and others. Isn't that just called

816
00:29:34,265 --> 00:29:36,924
the human existence? So just, you know, constantly

817
00:29:37,065 --> 00:29:39,464
double checking what we're doing. So that's what

818
00:29:39,464 --> 00:29:40,125
to me

819
00:29:40,424 --> 00:29:42,664
again, I don't see everyone's so excited to

820
00:29:42,664 --> 00:29:44,840
diagnose and call things that stuff. You know,

821
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,519
to me, you know, I learned this in

822
00:29:46,519 --> 00:29:48,359
grad school. You know, I would always push

823
00:29:48,359 --> 00:29:50,519
back on my teachers is it's like, oh,

824
00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:52,359
well, is it this or this? And we're,

825
00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:54,359
like, getting graded. And I'm, like, why does

826
00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:56,619
it matter if the treatment's basically the same?

827
00:29:56,965 --> 00:29:58,404
Mhmm. But I would say in this case

828
00:29:58,404 --> 00:30:00,005
or for some sort of the treatment is

829
00:30:00,005 --> 00:30:01,765
not the same. Different. But my point is

830
00:30:01,765 --> 00:30:03,545
I think that that's the point of like,

831
00:30:04,805 --> 00:30:06,904
regardless, isn't he have to go

832
00:30:07,605 --> 00:30:09,845
correct. The treatment. But regardless, in terms of

833
00:30:09,845 --> 00:30:11,910
like the end result is this person needs

834
00:30:11,910 --> 00:30:14,869
to equip themselves Yes. With a skill set

835
00:30:14,869 --> 00:30:16,950
to police their behavior and their belief system.

836
00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:18,549
Right? I mean, that's Yeah. Whether you're a

837
00:30:18,549 --> 00:30:21,509
narcissist or on the spectrum or even close

838
00:30:21,509 --> 00:30:23,130
to healthy and slightly narcissistic,

839
00:30:23,670 --> 00:30:26,170
in the end, the tool bag's the same.

840
00:30:26,494 --> 00:30:28,434
It's just for somebody like me, I'm narcissistic

841
00:30:28,975 --> 00:30:30,355
in so many categories.

842
00:30:30,815 --> 00:30:33,234
My tool bags had to get quite robust

843
00:30:33,455 --> 00:30:35,695
if I'm really trying to make sure I

844
00:30:35,695 --> 00:30:36,595
don't harm

845
00:30:36,975 --> 00:30:38,835
myself, my wife or anyone else

846
00:30:39,295 --> 00:30:41,295
by me missing some of this. Right? But

847
00:30:41,295 --> 00:30:43,829
that's that's my point is to me, again,

848
00:30:43,829 --> 00:30:45,930
I think we zoom in way too much.

849
00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:48,950
It's the same. You either were really had

850
00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:52,150
some very unfortunate events happen to you and

851
00:30:52,150 --> 00:30:53,910
you need a really thick tool bag like

852
00:30:53,910 --> 00:30:56,390
me or maybe your life wasn't that far

853
00:30:56,390 --> 00:30:58,459
off and your tool bag is a little

854
00:30:58,459 --> 00:31:00,907
bit lighter. You know, unfortunately, for my wife

855
00:31:00,907 --> 00:31:03,356
and I, we both our first twenty years

856
00:31:03,356 --> 00:31:05,532
of life were really hard on us. And

857
00:31:05,532 --> 00:31:07,709
so her and I have way more than

858
00:31:07,709 --> 00:31:09,885
a tool bag. We both carry around like

859
00:31:09,885 --> 00:31:12,269
a 80 gallon backpacking backpack of tools. But

860
00:31:12,269 --> 00:31:13,710
that's how her and I have found a

861
00:31:13,710 --> 00:31:16,456
way to stay married, be married, and try

862
00:31:16,456 --> 00:31:18,210
to it was we both

863
00:31:18,670 --> 00:31:21,070
there's so many wounds that, we carry around

864
00:31:21,070 --> 00:31:23,309
these backpacks to make sure that her and

865
00:31:23,309 --> 00:31:24,990
I can be in a really wonderful marriage

866
00:31:24,990 --> 00:31:27,474
and try to protect ourselves from ourselves and

867
00:31:27,474 --> 00:31:29,954
protect other people from aspects of us that

868
00:31:29,954 --> 00:31:30,775
aren't us.

869
00:31:31,394 --> 00:31:32,595
Do I do you agree with that kind

870
00:31:32,595 --> 00:31:34,115
of approach? I mean, in the end, I

871
00:31:34,115 --> 00:31:36,994
just I wonder oftentimes why we're labeling shit

872
00:31:36,994 --> 00:31:38,694
in the first place. Why don't we just

873
00:31:39,140 --> 00:31:40,420
why don't we just do the work to

874
00:31:40,420 --> 00:31:43,080
live the best life possible and be as

875
00:31:43,140 --> 00:31:45,160
nice to ourselves and others as we can?

876
00:31:45,299 --> 00:31:46,820
I think the time has come for us

877
00:31:46,820 --> 00:31:49,240
to put down the weaponizing word of narcissist.

878
00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:52,420
And if there's a real clinical concern, get

879
00:31:52,420 --> 00:31:52,845
it

880
00:31:53,804 --> 00:31:55,233
investigated and see what you can do about

881
00:31:55,233 --> 00:31:56,525
it. There is plenty of room for both

882
00:31:56,525 --> 00:31:57,984
accountability and empathy

883
00:31:58,365 --> 00:32:01,325
for somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder or

884
00:32:01,325 --> 00:32:04,065
someone who has narcissistic traits. And I'm tired

885
00:32:04,204 --> 00:32:06,684
of people wanting to force you into one

886
00:32:06,684 --> 00:32:07,505
or the other.

887
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:10,789
Accountability and empathy need to both be present

888
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:13,130
because empathy without accountability gives permission.

889
00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:15,529
Right? And accountability without empathy,

890
00:32:16,150 --> 00:32:18,250
that's perfect you're demanding perfectionism.

891
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:20,954
There's shame in that. There needs to be

892
00:32:20,954 --> 00:32:22,555
a balance. What you I love what you

893
00:32:22,555 --> 00:32:24,555
said there because I think, again, I we

894
00:32:24,555 --> 00:32:26,634
needed to touch on that. There's this thing

895
00:32:26,634 --> 00:32:28,894
in the field now where if he can't

896
00:32:29,355 --> 00:32:32,315
provide the empathy that you're desiring that he

897
00:32:32,315 --> 00:32:34,414
is a narcissist or could be a narcissist.

898
00:32:34,990 --> 00:32:35,490
I'm

899
00:32:35,950 --> 00:32:38,269
sorry. Guys, the a lot of the guys

900
00:32:38,269 --> 00:32:40,429
I know, they're they're great at cognitive empathy.

901
00:32:40,429 --> 00:32:42,669
They can they can think about what they've

902
00:32:42,669 --> 00:32:44,269
done to you. They can they can think

903
00:32:44,269 --> 00:32:44,769
about,

904
00:32:45,149 --> 00:32:46,909
oh, wow. I can I can see how

905
00:32:46,909 --> 00:32:49,205
she would draw such a conclusion from my

906
00:32:49,205 --> 00:32:51,945
behavior? Right? They can think about their impacts.

907
00:32:52,245 --> 00:32:54,005
Some of them even can can do well

908
00:32:54,005 --> 00:32:55,924
with empathic action. Right? So, you know, these

909
00:32:55,924 --> 00:32:57,845
guys can do aspects of it just because

910
00:32:57,845 --> 00:33:00,085
they can't crawl into the hole with you

911
00:33:00,085 --> 00:33:02,640
in the way that your girlfriends can. Right.

912
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,559
Maybe I'm wrong, Alexandra, but I don't think

913
00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:06,480
that makes them a narcissist. It I would

914
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,660
agree with you. I would just never modeled

915
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,680
that kind of empathy in my life. So

916
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:12,880
I don't know how to do it and

917
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,640
I don't really see any value in it.

918
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,785
Not because it's not valuable. I just I've

919
00:33:16,785 --> 00:33:18,484
never really had it done to me consistently

920
00:33:18,785 --> 00:33:20,484
and had it work. And so

921
00:33:20,865 --> 00:33:23,505
I just never found value in that kind

922
00:33:23,505 --> 00:33:25,825
of of empathy yet. I'm starting to learn

923
00:33:25,825 --> 00:33:27,984
why that would feel good. But again, I

924
00:33:27,984 --> 00:33:29,424
think we gotta be careful with some of

925
00:33:29,424 --> 00:33:30,945
that. That doesn't make him a narcissist. It

926
00:33:30,945 --> 00:33:34,299
just makes him, like, un unfamiliar with empathizing

927
00:33:34,359 --> 00:33:36,200
in that way. I would I would agree.

928
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:37,960
If I heard that story from a spouse

929
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,720
or from a patient himself, I would say,

930
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,400
okay, that's a that's an interesting piece of

931
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,799
the puzzle. Notably though, that's not actually one

932
00:33:43,799 --> 00:33:45,184
of the main pieces of the puzzle I'm

933
00:33:45,184 --> 00:33:47,025
after. I've given you a couple that I'm

934
00:33:47,025 --> 00:33:49,044
after in my conversations with them.

935
00:33:49,505 --> 00:33:51,444
But that, to me, what you just described,

936
00:33:51,505 --> 00:33:53,684
gender differences, the way you're raised,

937
00:33:54,144 --> 00:33:57,299
those things matter and are pertinent here. Yes.

938
00:33:57,380 --> 00:33:59,380
Yeah. They, you know, somebody's once on my

939
00:33:59,380 --> 00:34:01,860
last podcast, Jackie Packon, if you met Jackie,

940
00:34:01,860 --> 00:34:03,619
she's really smart. I love her so much.

941
00:34:03,619 --> 00:34:05,299
But she was saying that, yeah, there's a

942
00:34:05,299 --> 00:34:07,140
study and you've probably heard of it, that

943
00:34:07,140 --> 00:34:09,960
they just watched mothers looked at their sons

944
00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:11,000
less,

945
00:34:11,304 --> 00:34:13,385
not by much, but by fractions of a

946
00:34:13,385 --> 00:34:15,244
second less than they looked at their daughters.

947
00:34:15,704 --> 00:34:17,804
And it just shows there's this

948
00:34:18,425 --> 00:34:22,045
inherent societal assumption that he'll be all right.

949
00:34:22,184 --> 00:34:24,025
It's dusted off. He'll be, he'll find his

950
00:34:24,025 --> 00:34:26,684
way. And then there's this inherent desire to

951
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:28,420
nurture and facilitate

952
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,960
for the daughter a little bit more. Oh,

953
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,199
she'll, she won't be all right. She needs

954
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:35,119
us. Right? And again, what were the long

955
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:36,559
term effects of that?

956
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,719
But, you know, did we need to be

957
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,159
doing that much with the daughter and are

958
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:42,339
we doing too much or vice versa,

959
00:34:42,664 --> 00:34:44,505
who says that your son doesn't need that

960
00:34:44,505 --> 00:34:46,105
as well, right? Right. So the last thing

961
00:34:46,105 --> 00:34:48,105
I wanna talk about was try to make

962
00:34:48,105 --> 00:34:50,925
this, tangible as possible because people like to

963
00:34:51,545 --> 00:34:53,065
as much as we can. So I'm gonna

964
00:34:53,065 --> 00:34:54,664
use some of my examples. I want you

965
00:34:54,664 --> 00:34:55,804
to speak to

966
00:34:56,619 --> 00:34:58,219
what I would have to do with a

967
00:34:58,219 --> 00:34:59,599
lot of these things. So,

968
00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:01,579
let's go. I'm just gonna kind of catalog

969
00:35:01,579 --> 00:35:02,940
some of the things that I brought up

970
00:35:02,940 --> 00:35:05,500
with myself, right? So, I do feel like

971
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:07,019
a slave to my image. I feel like

972
00:35:07,019 --> 00:35:09,179
if I don't continue to prop it up

973
00:35:09,179 --> 00:35:11,005
and nurture it and facilitate it and take

974
00:35:11,005 --> 00:35:13,405
care of it and enhance it, that there

975
00:35:13,405 --> 00:35:15,804
are gonna be consequences. I'm gonna have less

976
00:35:15,804 --> 00:35:18,465
opportunities. I'm gonna be invited to less things.

977
00:35:18,764 --> 00:35:20,864
I'm going to be forgotten

978
00:35:21,324 --> 00:35:23,644
and I'm gonna be thought about less. People

979
00:35:23,644 --> 00:35:25,324
won't miss me if I'm gone. If I

980
00:35:25,324 --> 00:35:26,750
don't keep that

981
00:35:27,130 --> 00:35:30,010
keep enhancing and building that resume, it's okay.

982
00:35:30,010 --> 00:35:31,929
So there's this, you know, I do feel

983
00:35:31,929 --> 00:35:33,150
in many ways enslaved

984
00:35:33,530 --> 00:35:34,269
to that.

985
00:35:34,570 --> 00:35:37,210
I have this assumption that I'm completely alone

986
00:35:37,210 --> 00:35:39,324
and that it's every man for himself. Right?

987
00:35:39,324 --> 00:35:40,864
And so a lot of my behaviors,

988
00:35:41,485 --> 00:35:43,425
I do think about myself.

989
00:35:44,684 --> 00:35:45,184
First,

990
00:35:45,724 --> 00:35:46,945
I do not trust

991
00:35:47,565 --> 00:35:50,144
my wife to take care. I trust myself

992
00:35:50,204 --> 00:35:51,824
more than I trust anyone else

993
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:54,070
around some a lot of these things. I

994
00:35:54,070 --> 00:35:55,510
don't I don't trust them to make me

995
00:35:55,510 --> 00:35:56,710
happy. I need to get happy. I don't

996
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:58,230
trust them to make me feel at peace

997
00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:59,989
and fulfilled. I need to make sure that

998
00:35:59,989 --> 00:36:02,070
I'm, you know, so that's a massive one.

999
00:36:02,070 --> 00:36:04,789
And then the other one is this, I

1000
00:36:04,789 --> 00:36:07,050
don't care about people because

1001
00:36:07,684 --> 00:36:09,784
all I do is offer up solutions.

1002
00:36:10,324 --> 00:36:12,005
That because all I ever do is offer

1003
00:36:12,005 --> 00:36:14,324
up solutions that I am unempathetic and don't

1004
00:36:14,324 --> 00:36:15,684
care. So I would say those are probably

1005
00:36:15,684 --> 00:36:17,065
the three things

1006
00:36:17,684 --> 00:36:19,224
that I've been attacked

1007
00:36:19,889 --> 00:36:21,969
the most in terms of if I'm ever

1008
00:36:21,969 --> 00:36:24,710
being accused of being a grandiose narcissist.

1009
00:36:25,089 --> 00:36:27,809
It's usually in those three categories. It's over

1010
00:36:27,809 --> 00:36:30,049
obsession with propping up my image so I

1011
00:36:30,049 --> 00:36:31,589
don't suffer the negative consequences.

1012
00:36:32,449 --> 00:36:36,045
That's commitment to no one really cares about

1013
00:36:36,125 --> 00:36:37,885
In the end, it's every man for himself.

1014
00:36:37,885 --> 00:36:40,285
And the marriage is a marriage until you

1015
00:36:40,285 --> 00:36:42,065
get divorced, and then it's not a marriage.

1016
00:36:42,204 --> 00:36:43,425
This over isolation

1017
00:36:43,804 --> 00:36:44,304
and

1018
00:36:44,684 --> 00:36:47,380
distrust of others. And then also a solution

1019
00:36:47,380 --> 00:36:49,300
is the most valuable thing I could give

1020
00:36:49,300 --> 00:36:51,300
somebody, right? So I'd like you to speak

1021
00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:52,360
to all three briefly.

1022
00:36:52,980 --> 00:36:54,980
Yeah. So for the last one, that's I

1023
00:36:54,980 --> 00:36:56,980
see that really common, not in the context

1024
00:36:56,980 --> 00:36:58,900
of a personality disorder, but just in general

1025
00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:01,394
with the male population I work with, where

1026
00:37:01,394 --> 00:37:04,135
for them an action plan is love.

1027
00:37:05,235 --> 00:37:07,155
Mhmm. I'm gonna help solve it. That is

1028
00:37:07,155 --> 00:37:09,655
how I bring value into the situation.

1029
00:37:10,515 --> 00:37:12,994
So that's really common. And the idea is,

1030
00:37:12,994 --> 00:37:14,454
okay, that is your language,

1031
00:37:15,019 --> 00:37:16,859
and that is valid. That is a big

1032
00:37:16,859 --> 00:37:19,039
that is a big contribution in the relationship,

1033
00:37:19,179 --> 00:37:21,420
and it's not necessarily speaking the other person's

1034
00:37:21,420 --> 00:37:23,179
language because they need to hear love other

1035
00:37:23,179 --> 00:37:26,239
than your problem to be solved. Mhmm. Mhmm.

1036
00:37:26,339 --> 00:37:28,255
Mhmm. Mhmm. So that that's what that's what

1037
00:37:28,255 --> 00:37:29,934
comes up with me for the last one.

1038
00:37:29,934 --> 00:37:32,414
So not necessarily how you would be accused

1039
00:37:32,414 --> 00:37:33,635
of being a narcissist

1040
00:37:34,014 --> 00:37:34,514
because

1041
00:37:34,815 --> 00:37:37,554
to that individual, especially in the betrayal dynamic,

1042
00:37:38,414 --> 00:37:39,394
you saying,

1043
00:37:39,934 --> 00:37:42,460
oh, well, how could that have happened? How

1044
00:37:42,460 --> 00:37:44,539
could I have gone there? I was home

1045
00:37:44,539 --> 00:37:45,599
at 04:05.

1046
00:37:45,980 --> 00:37:48,700
How could I have physically gone to this

1047
00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:51,340
massage parlor and you know, so here I

1048
00:37:51,340 --> 00:37:52,480
am logically

1049
00:37:52,860 --> 00:37:55,660
defending how it's physically not possible for me

1050
00:37:55,660 --> 00:37:58,005
to have gone there and gotten home by

1051
00:37:58,005 --> 00:37:59,224
04:05PM

1052
00:37:59,925 --> 00:38:01,445
from when you were just talking me on

1053
00:38:01,445 --> 00:38:04,025
the phone. You can see where this solution

1054
00:38:04,085 --> 00:38:05,864
logical based explanation

1055
00:38:06,244 --> 00:38:07,864
comes off narcissistic

1056
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,400
when it isn't. I'm in my mind, I'm

1057
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,400
like, oh, I can put her at peace

1058
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,559
by showing her logistically how this is just

1059
00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:18,039
physically impossible. Right. But now I'm being called

1060
00:38:18,039 --> 00:38:20,380
a narcissist. Right? So what you're saying is

1061
00:38:20,855 --> 00:38:21,674
my belief

1062
00:38:22,214 --> 00:38:24,054
that the most valuable thing I could offer

1063
00:38:24,054 --> 00:38:27,414
somebody is proof, hard evidence that they don't

1064
00:38:27,414 --> 00:38:29,255
need to worry. It doesn't make me a

1065
00:38:29,255 --> 00:38:30,694
narcissist. It just It does not make you

1066
00:38:30,694 --> 00:38:31,275
a narcissist.

1067
00:38:31,655 --> 00:38:33,815
You're just speaking a different language. You're speaking

1068
00:38:33,815 --> 00:38:35,889
a different language is what that is. And

1069
00:38:35,889 --> 00:38:37,730
a phrase I often use with my patients

1070
00:38:37,730 --> 00:38:39,730
sometimes is, would you rather be relational or

1071
00:38:39,730 --> 00:38:40,949
right? Mhmm.

1072
00:38:41,250 --> 00:38:42,369
Because I have a lot of people say,

1073
00:38:42,369 --> 00:38:44,449
but, like, I can show. I can prove

1074
00:38:44,449 --> 00:38:45,510
it. I can show.

1075
00:38:45,809 --> 00:38:48,289
Okay. Yes. Would you rather be relational or

1076
00:38:48,289 --> 00:38:49,944
right in this moment? Yes. There will be

1077
00:38:49,944 --> 00:38:51,864
time for you to express your thoughts, but

1078
00:38:51,864 --> 00:38:54,045
right now, your spouse, they need the relational

1079
00:38:54,105 --> 00:38:54,605
aspect.

1080
00:38:54,905 --> 00:38:57,385
Validate how scared they are. Validation is the

1081
00:38:57,385 --> 00:38:59,464
opposite of gaslighting. It's quite literally making a

1082
00:38:59,464 --> 00:39:01,304
case for the other person's point even if

1083
00:39:01,304 --> 00:39:03,639
you don't agree with it all. Yes. Yes.

1084
00:39:03,639 --> 00:39:05,400
Mhmm. It's I like that. I think you

1085
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:06,059
did a good

1086
00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:08,280
but again, just for the listeners, you can

1087
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:09,260
see how

1088
00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:12,219
easy it is to see that Instagram reel

1089
00:39:12,679 --> 00:39:15,079
about how how a narcissist shows up and

1090
00:39:15,079 --> 00:39:17,900
then have your husband come back and,

1091
00:39:18,324 --> 00:39:21,204
you know, what looks like defend his case

1092
00:39:21,204 --> 00:39:22,105
against how

1093
00:39:22,485 --> 00:39:24,565
what you're accusing him of couldn't happen. And

1094
00:39:24,565 --> 00:39:26,244
again, I just I want people we gotta

1095
00:39:26,244 --> 00:39:27,304
be careful correlating

1096
00:39:27,605 --> 00:39:29,704
two things. Just because you saw that Instagram

1097
00:39:29,765 --> 00:39:30,664
reel, a,

1098
00:39:31,039 --> 00:39:32,019
who says that Instagram

1099
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:33,940
person even knows

1100
00:39:34,639 --> 00:39:36,960
was even right? What I would say, every

1101
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,179
time I have talked to

1102
00:39:38,559 --> 00:39:39,059
psychiatrists

1103
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,400
and people even in the field, they're actually

1104
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,079
very put off by a lot of the

1105
00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:46,875
narcissist experts. Because as they listen to their

1106
00:39:46,875 --> 00:39:48,255
content and watch their Instagram,

1107
00:39:48,635 --> 00:39:50,394
the guy that I was talking to, he

1108
00:39:50,394 --> 00:39:52,155
said, not only do I disagree with all

1109
00:39:52,155 --> 00:39:54,494
of it, but all of it conflicts

1110
00:39:55,275 --> 00:39:57,835
with the what we know to be true

1111
00:39:57,835 --> 00:40:00,235
about narcissism. And so he they're very offended

1112
00:40:00,235 --> 00:40:02,210
that a lot of these kind of Instagram

1113
00:40:02,210 --> 00:40:04,769
reels are being invented because it's like this

1114
00:40:04,769 --> 00:40:07,089
literally is not true. It goes against it

1115
00:40:07,089 --> 00:40:09,170
goes against what we know about narcissism, yet

1116
00:40:09,170 --> 00:40:10,230
this is being propagated

1117
00:40:10,530 --> 00:40:12,690
as truth by somebody who's claiming to be

1118
00:40:12,690 --> 00:40:13,429
a narcissist

1119
00:40:13,969 --> 00:40:16,175
expert. But again, remember, how can you be

1120
00:40:16,175 --> 00:40:16,835
a narcissism

1121
00:40:17,215 --> 00:40:18,994
expert, right? Where is this person

1122
00:40:19,454 --> 00:40:21,775
gaining their expertise from that? So again, just

1123
00:40:21,775 --> 00:40:23,054
as you guys are in the mental health

1124
00:40:23,054 --> 00:40:25,235
place, always be cautious of

1125
00:40:25,775 --> 00:40:26,675
how would one

1126
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,320
know so that that definitive statement they're saying,

1127
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,119
how would they know that for sure? And

1128
00:40:32,119 --> 00:40:33,639
use your brain a little bit and just

1129
00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:35,559
ask, how could we measure something like that?

1130
00:40:35,559 --> 00:40:37,480
How could anyone measure that? The truth is

1131
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,159
a lot of that stuff can't ever and

1132
00:40:39,159 --> 00:40:41,239
probably will never ever be able to be

1133
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:41,739
measured.

1134
00:40:42,125 --> 00:40:44,045
And so again, you know, consider the source,

1135
00:40:44,045 --> 00:40:44,545
right?

1136
00:40:45,164 --> 00:40:45,664
So

1137
00:40:46,284 --> 00:40:47,105
how about

1138
00:40:47,644 --> 00:40:49,585
my behavior is the result

1139
00:40:49,964 --> 00:40:50,864
from my

1140
00:40:51,244 --> 00:40:51,744
insistence

1141
00:40:52,045 --> 00:40:53,344
that I am alone,

1142
00:40:53,804 --> 00:40:55,644
in this world and that it's every man

1143
00:40:55,644 --> 00:40:57,949
for himself. Now, as you can imagine,

1144
00:40:58,489 --> 00:41:00,829
I'm probably acting very narcissistic

1145
00:41:01,289 --> 00:41:03,869
with that belief system. How is that narcissism

1146
00:41:04,090 --> 00:41:05,690
and what would somebody do from a treatment

1147
00:41:05,690 --> 00:41:08,170
standpoint? Yeah. Speaking of every man for himself

1148
00:41:08,170 --> 00:41:10,750
does not inherently mean you have narcissistic personality

1149
00:41:11,050 --> 00:41:11,550
disorder.

1150
00:41:12,045 --> 00:41:14,204
One of the follow-up questions that I sometimes

1151
00:41:14,204 --> 00:41:15,964
ask my patients, another piece of the puzzle,

1152
00:41:15,964 --> 00:41:17,184
if you will, that I'm gathering,

1153
00:41:17,565 --> 00:41:20,204
is I say, the opposite of addiction is

1154
00:41:20,204 --> 00:41:20,704
connection.

1155
00:41:21,005 --> 00:41:23,244
We've we've all heard that adage before. Right?

1156
00:41:23,244 --> 00:41:25,105
The opposite of addiction is connection.

1157
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:27,960
Are you able to connect with others? Mhmm.

1158
00:41:28,340 --> 00:41:30,099
And not just are you able to cultivate

1159
00:41:30,099 --> 00:41:30,920
a connection

1160
00:41:31,940 --> 00:41:34,420
from them towards you, are you able to

1161
00:41:34,420 --> 00:41:36,660
connect with others? Is that possible for you?

1162
00:41:36,660 --> 00:41:39,619
Because at the core, a personality disorder disrupts

1163
00:41:39,619 --> 00:41:41,559
your ability to connect with other people.

1164
00:41:42,074 --> 00:41:43,755
Mhmm. So that is one of the questions

1165
00:41:43,755 --> 00:41:45,275
that pops into my mind. So if I

1166
00:41:45,275 --> 00:41:47,355
hear someone say, oh, I remember myself. Okay.

1167
00:41:47,355 --> 00:41:49,614
Let's talk talk about your ability to connect.

1168
00:41:49,914 --> 00:41:50,414
Yeah.

1169
00:41:50,795 --> 00:41:51,295
Yeah.

1170
00:41:51,914 --> 00:41:53,514
I like that. I like that because it's

1171
00:41:53,675 --> 00:41:55,934
well, and so so on that topic though,

1172
00:41:56,329 --> 00:41:57,789
I find too that

1173
00:41:58,329 --> 00:41:59,309
a lot of

1174
00:41:59,690 --> 00:42:03,150
the thinking in that I can't trust anyone,

1175
00:42:03,769 --> 00:42:05,690
in the end, people come and go, they

1176
00:42:05,690 --> 00:42:08,090
don't really care forever, they only care and

1177
00:42:08,090 --> 00:42:10,494
care, they don't. A lot of these beliefs

1178
00:42:10,494 --> 00:42:11,315
that I have

1179
00:42:11,695 --> 00:42:13,775
make it hard for me to connect because

1180
00:42:13,775 --> 00:42:15,454
I constantly have one foot in and one

1181
00:42:15,454 --> 00:42:17,855
foot out of every relationship I have. Right.

1182
00:42:17,855 --> 00:42:20,114
And then I would be curious about, okay,

1183
00:42:20,175 --> 00:42:22,094
is this come from trauma, right? And is

1184
00:42:22,094 --> 00:42:24,175
it responding to trauma treatment? And if not,

1185
00:42:24,175 --> 00:42:26,750
that, like there's so many puzzle pieces that

1186
00:42:26,750 --> 00:42:28,269
have to be But what I but what

1187
00:42:28,269 --> 00:42:29,869
you're does everybody hear what she's saying? Do

1188
00:42:29,869 --> 00:42:31,969
you hear how she always goes back to,

1189
00:42:32,429 --> 00:42:34,769
did you get this way because somebody

1190
00:42:35,309 --> 00:42:37,309
bullied you, led you to believe that you

1191
00:42:37,309 --> 00:42:39,695
were less than, told you that your emotions

1192
00:42:39,695 --> 00:42:41,295
didn't matter even though you expressed I said

1193
00:42:41,295 --> 00:42:44,094
that. Right. So what what Alexander is saying

1194
00:42:44,094 --> 00:42:44,594
is

1195
00:42:45,135 --> 00:42:47,215
because of how the church that I was

1196
00:42:47,215 --> 00:42:48,815
a part of treated me and how my

1197
00:42:48,815 --> 00:42:50,414
parents talked to me and the way they

1198
00:42:50,414 --> 00:42:52,494
ignored my feelings and forced me to do

1199
00:42:52,494 --> 00:42:54,035
things led me to believe

1200
00:42:54,869 --> 00:42:56,889
that you have to stick up for yourself.

1201
00:42:56,949 --> 00:42:59,190
You have to lie. Because every time I

1202
00:42:59,269 --> 00:43:00,389
if they would find out what I was

1203
00:43:00,389 --> 00:43:01,829
really doing, they would punish me and take

1204
00:43:01,829 --> 00:43:04,789
away my freedom. So I lied so that

1205
00:43:04,789 --> 00:43:07,269
I could still go to my friend's birthday

1206
00:43:07,269 --> 00:43:09,204
parties because if they found out that I

1207
00:43:09,204 --> 00:43:11,065
wasn't doing their church stuff,

1208
00:43:11,364 --> 00:43:13,364
they would punish me. Right? So again, what

1209
00:43:13,364 --> 00:43:16,565
Alexander is saying is, I learned to be

1210
00:43:16,565 --> 00:43:17,625
a different way

1211
00:43:18,244 --> 00:43:21,364
because I didn't wanna be penalized and lose

1212
00:43:21,364 --> 00:43:23,940
out on the very normal childhood experiences that

1213
00:43:23,940 --> 00:43:25,860
I was gonna lose out on when they

1214
00:43:25,860 --> 00:43:28,340
found out that I wasn't being correct in

1215
00:43:28,340 --> 00:43:31,380
their religious practices. Right? So I found it

1216
00:43:31,380 --> 00:43:33,139
better to lie. I found it better to

1217
00:43:33,139 --> 00:43:34,579
live my own life. I found it better

1218
00:43:34,579 --> 00:43:36,019
to just look out for myself. I found

1219
00:43:36,019 --> 00:43:38,034
it better to stop caring about what my

1220
00:43:38,034 --> 00:43:39,974
parents wanted from me. It was just easier

1221
00:43:40,434 --> 00:43:42,355
to do me instead of try to do

1222
00:43:42,355 --> 00:43:43,474
the thing that they had. So do you

1223
00:43:43,474 --> 00:43:45,394
guys hear what Alexander is saying is, Because

1224
00:43:45,394 --> 00:43:47,074
I wasn't always that way, I actually tried

1225
00:43:47,074 --> 00:43:48,994
to comply with my parents. When I realized

1226
00:43:48,994 --> 00:43:50,434
that what they wanted me to do just

1227
00:43:50,434 --> 00:43:52,139
didn't feel right for me, and then I

1228
00:43:52,299 --> 00:43:54,719
decided not to, I didn't become a narcissist

1229
00:43:54,779 --> 00:43:57,279
that day. I just chose a different behavior

1230
00:43:57,500 --> 00:43:59,980
pattern. Right. What I'm saying is one is

1231
00:43:59,980 --> 00:44:02,219
not become a narcissist, one is born a

1232
00:44:02,219 --> 00:44:04,139
narcissist. And so then it becomes up to

1233
00:44:04,139 --> 00:44:06,639
your individual therapist, psychologists, etcetera,

1234
00:44:07,099 --> 00:44:10,114
to flesh those things out. And then the

1235
00:44:10,114 --> 00:44:12,135
last one was, again, the overemphasis

1236
00:44:12,434 --> 00:44:12,934
on

1237
00:44:13,315 --> 00:44:13,815
image.

1238
00:44:14,195 --> 00:44:17,235
I'm still firmly gonna believe the only reason

1239
00:44:17,235 --> 00:44:20,135
I felt like building that resume was because

1240
00:44:20,195 --> 00:44:22,659
I had mountains of evidence that if I

1241
00:44:22,659 --> 00:44:23,780
had a car like that, a house like

1242
00:44:23,780 --> 00:44:25,380
that, a bank account like that, biceps like

1243
00:44:25,380 --> 00:44:26,920
that, a six pack like that,

1244
00:44:27,219 --> 00:44:29,780
clothes like that, a wristwatch like that. And

1245
00:44:29,780 --> 00:44:31,940
I spoke on stage, and I drove this

1246
00:44:31,940 --> 00:44:33,460
car, my wife looked like this, and the

1247
00:44:33,460 --> 00:44:35,724
size of my wife's ring was this. If

1248
00:44:35,724 --> 00:44:37,885
I had mountains of evidence that would suggest

1249
00:44:37,885 --> 00:44:40,045
that if I can pull that off, I'm

1250
00:44:40,045 --> 00:44:41,724
gonna get invited to more stuff. I'm gonna

1251
00:44:41,724 --> 00:44:43,405
be taken more seriously. I'm gonna be the

1252
00:44:43,405 --> 00:44:45,484
first choice for that position. And I'll tell

1253
00:44:45,484 --> 00:44:46,625
you what happened, Alexandra.

1254
00:44:47,164 --> 00:44:49,744
I got that resume and everything

1255
00:44:50,619 --> 00:44:53,260
that they said was gonna happen, happened. I

1256
00:44:53,260 --> 00:44:55,579
was looked at differently. Doors were open. I

1257
00:44:55,579 --> 00:44:57,179
get invited to things that I would never

1258
00:44:57,179 --> 00:45:00,079
have gotten invited to. People fight over me

1259
00:45:00,139 --> 00:45:02,059
to get into a position. Right? Like, I

1260
00:45:02,059 --> 00:45:02,559
follow

1261
00:45:03,019 --> 00:45:05,025
those rules and it did work. So again,

1262
00:45:05,025 --> 00:45:07,385
I'm I'm always of the, like I think

1263
00:45:07,385 --> 00:45:09,224
everyone assumes that that guy is this just

1264
00:45:09,224 --> 00:45:10,445
self absorbed narcissist.

1265
00:45:10,744 --> 00:45:12,344
I disagree. I think we said, hey, get

1266
00:45:12,344 --> 00:45:13,785
all these things and your life will be

1267
00:45:13,785 --> 00:45:15,465
this. And so they went to go get

1268
00:45:15,465 --> 00:45:18,650
those things. That's certainly one that's that's certainly

1269
00:45:18,650 --> 00:45:21,130
one explanation. And my encouragement to folks is

1270
00:45:21,130 --> 00:45:23,769
when narcissist is going through your brain as

1271
00:45:23,769 --> 00:45:26,410
a possibility, consider the other possibilities because there's

1272
00:45:26,410 --> 00:45:28,890
many, right? Yes, correct. I like that. Bigger

1273
00:45:28,890 --> 00:45:31,304
than we think, right? So final as we

1274
00:45:31,304 --> 00:45:32,284
wrap up, Alexandra,

1275
00:45:32,905 --> 00:45:34,744
you do not just as everyone listened to

1276
00:45:34,744 --> 00:45:36,344
this, I know you're listening to how she

1277
00:45:36,344 --> 00:45:38,905
was responding. And I know my listeners because

1278
00:45:38,905 --> 00:45:40,344
you guys are a lot like me. We

1279
00:45:40,344 --> 00:45:42,184
like to think, we like to challenge stuff,

1280
00:45:42,184 --> 00:45:43,405
we like to know why.

1281
00:45:43,869 --> 00:45:45,789
Well, you guys probably like what you heard

1282
00:45:45,789 --> 00:45:47,389
from Alexandra. I know you did. And I

1283
00:45:47,389 --> 00:45:48,589
know a lot of you are gonna wanna

1284
00:45:48,589 --> 00:45:50,030
work with her. Well, she works with people

1285
00:45:50,030 --> 00:45:52,109
in a very different way. I'm not gonna

1286
00:45:52,109 --> 00:45:53,869
get into it now. You guys should just,

1287
00:45:53,869 --> 00:45:55,230
you know, if you do wanna work with

1288
00:45:55,230 --> 00:45:57,070
her, email or call or whatever. She can

1289
00:45:57,070 --> 00:45:58,905
kinda tell you how that looks like. But

1290
00:45:58,905 --> 00:46:00,765
she is not your very stereotypical,

1291
00:46:01,465 --> 00:46:03,385
come in when you feel like it therapist.

1292
00:46:03,385 --> 00:46:05,785
You are either all in and recovering with

1293
00:46:05,785 --> 00:46:07,965
her or you're all out and not recovering.

1294
00:46:08,025 --> 00:46:10,105
So for that reason, she doesn't work maybe

1295
00:46:10,105 --> 00:46:12,344
with as many clients as many therapists do

1296
00:46:12,344 --> 00:46:14,500
because she demands that you're all in or

1297
00:46:14,500 --> 00:46:16,179
all out so she works with a smaller

1298
00:46:16,179 --> 00:46:17,539
number of people. But that being said, it

1299
00:46:17,539 --> 00:46:19,059
doesn't hurt to reach out, see if she

1300
00:46:19,059 --> 00:46:19,880
has availability

1301
00:46:20,260 --> 00:46:21,859
to work with you or when that next

1302
00:46:21,859 --> 00:46:24,500
availability will be. But Alexandra, what is the

1303
00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:26,339
website? If they're gonna get in contact with

1304
00:46:26,339 --> 00:46:28,839
you and explore working together, how's that look?

1305
00:46:29,034 --> 00:46:31,034
Yes. They can just navigate to my website,

1306
00:46:31,034 --> 00:46:34,795
which is my full name. So alexandrarepke.com,

1307
00:46:34,795 --> 00:46:36,635
which I believe will be somewhere in in

1308
00:46:36,635 --> 00:46:37,375
this podcast.

1309
00:46:37,835 --> 00:46:39,755
So just navigate to that website. It has

1310
00:46:39,755 --> 00:46:42,269
a contact form. And if you contact me,

1311
00:46:42,269 --> 00:46:44,190
and even if I'm full, my goal is

1312
00:46:44,190 --> 00:46:45,469
to get you to who you need to

1313
00:46:45,469 --> 00:46:47,469
be with. Mhmm. So whenever I get an

1314
00:46:47,469 --> 00:46:49,710
email, I'm going to respond and see, okay,

1315
00:46:49,710 --> 00:46:51,309
if I can't work with you, who would

1316
00:46:51,309 --> 00:46:53,789
be a good fit? Mhmm. I always tell

1317
00:46:53,789 --> 00:46:56,724
everybody, it never hurts to reach out

1318
00:46:57,025 --> 00:47:00,085
and articulate what you need. Because usually,

1319
00:47:00,465 --> 00:47:02,545
the person that you email, they'll hear what

1320
00:47:02,545 --> 00:47:04,625
you need and they'll go, oh, I know

1321
00:47:04,625 --> 00:47:06,305
this guy Chris. Yes. You'll love he would

1322
00:47:06,305 --> 00:47:07,825
be a way better fit. And then now

1323
00:47:07,825 --> 00:47:09,344
you got that one referral that you've been

1324
00:47:09,344 --> 00:47:11,130
dying to. So I always tell people, you

1325
00:47:11,130 --> 00:47:13,369
know, over vocalize, stick up to yourself in

1326
00:47:13,369 --> 00:47:15,849
your treatment, advocate for your treatment. If it's

1327
00:47:15,849 --> 00:47:17,869
not working or you feel like your provider,

1328
00:47:17,929 --> 00:47:19,449
you need a different one, then switch. I

1329
00:47:19,449 --> 00:47:21,549
mean, don't sit back and expect

1330
00:47:22,089 --> 00:47:22,670
the field

1331
00:47:23,635 --> 00:47:25,235
to cure you, treat you, help you to

1332
00:47:25,235 --> 00:47:27,394
recover. You really I would encourage everybody listening

1333
00:47:27,394 --> 00:47:30,114
to this. Getting into good recovery is hard

1334
00:47:30,114 --> 00:47:33,954
only because it's custom to you, your life,

1335
00:47:33,954 --> 00:47:36,355
your upbringing, your traumas. Like, all these things

1336
00:47:36,355 --> 00:47:37,494
need to be customized.

1337
00:47:37,929 --> 00:47:39,050
And the only person who's gonna take care

1338
00:47:39,050 --> 00:47:40,969
of that is you, not in the therapy

1339
00:47:40,969 --> 00:47:42,890
field, right? And I'll quick throw this out

1340
00:47:42,890 --> 00:47:45,369
there. Number one predictor of therapeutic success is

1341
00:47:45,369 --> 00:47:47,050
not necessarily what you would think it would

1342
00:47:47,050 --> 00:47:49,449
be. It's the relationship between you and your

1343
00:47:49,449 --> 00:47:51,784
therapist. Yep. Bingo. And I think most people

1344
00:47:51,784 --> 00:47:54,264
would who've done therapy would absolutely believe that.

1345
00:47:54,264 --> 00:47:55,944
Well, Alexandra, this is great. Thanks for coming

1346
00:47:55,944 --> 00:47:57,464
on. I have a feeling we're probably gonna

1347
00:47:57,464 --> 00:47:58,984
do this again, and you're fun to listen

1348
00:47:58,984 --> 00:48:01,484
to. Sounds good. Thank you for having me.

1349
00:48:02,105 --> 00:48:04,320
Thanks for listening to this episode. If you

1350
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,000
are a high achiever with a sex addiction

1351
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:07,760
and you're looking for a recovery group full

1352
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,880
of like minded men, visit successfuladdict.com.

1353
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,700
We provide men with a recovery mastermind group

1354
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:14,980
using four day retreats,

1355
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,175
weekly group calls, and daily accountability check ins.

1356
00:48:18,175 --> 00:48:20,335
If you wanna achieve long term sobriety and

1357
00:48:20,335 --> 00:48:22,414
save your marriage, go to our website, fill

1358
00:48:22,414 --> 00:48:23,234
out our application.

1359
00:48:23,534 --> 00:48:25,934
If you enjoyed this episode, please pass it

1360
00:48:25,934 --> 00:48:27,614
along to a friend in recovery who would

1361
00:48:27,614 --> 00:48:29,534
benefit from listening. It is my mission to

1362
00:48:29,534 --> 00:48:31,324
get this information out to as many high

1363
00:48:31,324 --> 00:48:33,565
achievers as possible, and I can't do it

1364
00:48:33,565 --> 00:48:34,545
without your help.